With YKOS 2 over, I find myself trying to understand what I’ve just seen and why I found the experience so disheartening. While I love having time with so many wonderful firepups and FDL colleagues, the acceptance of conventional wisdom frames that seemed so pervasive was maddening. And this acceptance for me was most evident at the presidential forum.
And while Hilary was allowed to portray herself as the tough one taking on Cheney over the lack of exit planning (to raucus applause no less), no one mentioned that her plan to “begin redeploying our American troops but to do it in a careful and responsible way …” does not translate into an exit plan at all but a scheme to retain residual troops – some say to the tune of over 50,000 troops in Iraq for an undetermined time. (I requested a statement on the Senator’s residual troop plan several weeks ago but have yet to receive an answer.)
In fact the only candidate whose plan for Iraq was brought into question was Gov. Richardson – the one with the most progressive and rational position on Iraq. As he noted, he has a “one point plan for Iraq – get out, get out, get out … with no residual forces.” Mr. Bai apparently could not allow such a strong stance to go unchallenged and interrupted the Governor with a question – he began by referring to Richardson’s support for intervention in Darfur and then continued “how can you protect against the same kind of genocide in Iraq that would then necessitate our going back …”
Senator Dodd did step up – insisting that we don’t have to wait for 2008 to bring change and called on his colleagues in Congress to stand for something on Iraq. As he so wisely noted “It’s more important to have 25 votes that mean something than 51 votes that don’t mean anything.”
But the meaningless talking points seemed to be all most of the candidates would offer and the challenging netroots-y questions I think we wanted raised were never asked.
Questions like:
“What were you thinking Sen. Obama when you spoke of a unilateral attack on Pakistan?”
or
“Who on the panel will rule out an attack on Iran? And why is blocking such an attack on Iran in the Congress ‘off the table?’” (and in fact not only removed from current legislation actually replaced by Bush inspired hate amendments)
While we, the people and the netroots, were allowed to hoot and holler, the questions and moderation of the forum relegated this forum to an almost perfect copy of every mainstream media “debate” we’ve seem so far.
And no one spoke of the people of Iraq or Afghanistan – or of their imminent need for relief in the face of an increasingly brutal occupation. No one spoke of the desperation of the people in Baghdad where:
At night, water from an emergency reservoir trickles out of the taps for one or two hours. Kharkh residents have to stay awake to switch on their electrical pumps to boost the water flow and try to fill their tanks before the taps run dry again.
“I live with five brothers. When the water comes in we stand in a queue waiting to take a shower,” said Ali Musa, a security guard from the al-Hurriya district in western Baghdad. “It is a miserable life but we have to be patient.”
Residents help each other out. Those with wells share water with neighbors. People with buckets are a common sight.
The number of Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies has risen from 50 per cent to 70 percent since 2003, while 80 per cent lack effective sanitation, British charity Oxfam said in a report last month. (emph. added)
And no one spoke of the young boy in this photo crying as he waits outside a morgue in Baghdad.
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zed?
Siun!
Siun!!!
You can run, but you can’t hide.
What a touching post Siun.
My own disappointment with the convention was the limited focus on energy policy, energy alternatives, and the danger of nuclear energy.
I have been spending time at Gorilla’s Guides. I wish I hadn’t.
That photo is so movingly poignant!
I’m amazed that Matt Bai was picked to moderate. Who made that decision?
did anyone tell downstairs?
I stuck my big toe into the election lake today and sent a check(1st) to John Edwards. His intentions seem sincere to me. Clark would have been my choice, but that looks like a no go.
Well… you might say that me and my sweetie are the two loneliest radicals on the face of Mother Earth. Politically speaking, we feel like giving up sometimes, but we know we won’t. We’ve fought a lot of political battles together, her and me. And I love her.
For you, baby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fNDfdjXd8
Siun
Are you saying that the right questions were not asked or that they were not answered. I was not there. Organizing Dems is a whole lot worse than herding cats. Did it for 40 years and I know.
Well, to make some lemonade out of a lemon, at least none of the Democrats advocated nuking Mecca or doubling Guantanimo.
I guess that is a rather small consolation. Maybe not.
-GSD
Let me try to offer some small consolation, Siun.
The folks on FDL, and plenty of the other blogs who were represented at YKOS are smart enough to ask tough questions, and to get commitments from Democratic candidates. But to what avail?
The commitments are not enforcable. However, the enemies of democracy, (republicans) would use them, probably out of context, to defeat whoever emerges as the Democratic candidate.
During some of the threads here for the last couple of days, I have felt that our anger at the capitulation re: FISA has overshadowed our justifiable disdain for the criminals running this country.
myself, I think a simple question like “um, Senators, just what the hell is going on with “our” party on the FISA vote right now?” would have been apropos.
these are REALLY CRITICAL days right now. to not treat them as such is foolish. we “play politics” at our peril.
I believe that all of the prez candidates were on the right side of the vote.
listening to the ykos candidate luv fest was difficult due to to net glithes but sounded just like a CNN debate in lack of quality questions ..
Who filtered the questions and who allowed them to do that?
The courageous and grown-up answer to questions about “what will happen if we leave?” goes something like this:
When I hear that answer from a presidential candidate, I’ll finally be looking at someone with the moral courage needed to lead this country.
slainte,
cl
Twain … a YouTube of the debate – compliments of Politics TV – is up – see the first link I think it was … it’s in 4 parts: intros, then domestic, foreign and other policies. That way everyone can judge for themselves.
Caoimhin Laochdha @ 19
Amen. I’m with you.
Ooh Ooh Pick MEEEEEEE
The reason is actually quite simple: as strong as we feel. As much as we are encouraged by meeting together literally and figuratively: it simply makes no difference.
We can boast of our power. We can thrust our chest out with pride when we see someone stand up to the powers that be and say, “That one is one of ours!” But in the end, there are too few of ours and they simply cannot stem the tide of mediocrity and mendacity that has gripped our country with its hoary hand.
Consider the FISA Law. What a sad, pathetic joke on the progressive community. Whatever it was that we thought we had, this showed us that we had NOTHING.
Consider the courts ruling against the homeowners on the Gulf Coast. Again, there is nothing that ordinary people can do against the unholy marriage of government/insurance companies/multinational corporations. (Yet Trent Lott managed to work out his own deal with Allstate – too bad such remedies are not available to “Americans who are not influential.”)
Consider the constant filtering of the news: news of refugee camps in Iraq managed to slip out tonight. To the best of my knowledge I was ignorant of such things yet there they were on NBC tonight. How long have they been in existence? If they news media knew of them, then why didn’t they tell the American people about them?
Consider the lost war that they are now saying we are winning. The truth is that they will say and do anything to prevent people from understanding what a mess they have made of this situation. If they have to lie for only a few more months, so what? What is that compared to the more than six years of lies they have already completed?
So, why do you feel disheartened? In truth, there is little to feel heartened about. Yet we must still try for the good of the country but I am at wit’s end as to what to do. They have forced our hand and laughed at our consequences.
Sorry.
My bold added..
And the two are inseparable, imo.
Good point about the questions they were asked, Siun. And I’m not happy with the fact that candidates and others are blaming the Iraqi parliament for their problems.
Caoimhin Laochdha – oh Gaelic brother …
Richardson comes the closest to that position though he frames it in talk about US troops lost. He does seem to refrain from the Clinton style blame the Iraqis and he does call for a Muslim peacekeeping force which shows more respect than anyone else.
I must say that Richardson on Iraq and Dodd on so much else are my two favorites … and I love Dodd’s willingness to call his colleagues to act NOW.
Eureka Springs @ 23
One and the same…!!! 8-(
rwcole @ 17
That’s correct, but what does it say? People who know they are being watched, know which way to vote? And others don’t?
How many children have all you “pro-life” Republicans killed in the Middle East. And Hillary and a bunch more Democrats, you have Middle Eastern blood on your hands too. May God have mercy on all your souls.
Blogosphere is the new Black.
We have no place to go but the Dems, and they know it, so they throw half a loaf.
We collectively can create something better, I believe, perhaps by 2008, but if not, for later.
I like Richardson for several reasons..he gets attention that approaches zero as a limit- but is said to be doin well in Iowa and New Hampshire- and so could jump up the ladder quickly. We’ll see. This thing is gonna drag on and on and on- and then- once it really starts- it’ll be over. The primaries are so closely compacted that there isn’t much time for a candidate to parlay a good showing into a win.
DWD – please join us more often on Sunday nights .. we do talk of the refugee camps and more and have for quite a while. You’ll also find extensive and reliable info on the camps and what is really happening in Iraq at the UN’s news service IRIN and at GorillasGuides
Siun, the knee jerk blame the Iraqis theme when espoused by Democrats really galls me.
It’s like getting angry at a rape victim for not fighting their attacker.
-GSD
Eureka Springs @ 23
exactly. sorry, “democrat=good/republican=bad” doesn’t work for shit any more.
Mitch- don’t know exactly WHAT is says- but it’s a stretch to hold em responsible for the total vote- they did their part (am I my brother’s keeper?)
Damn, Siun, you paint such a bleak picture!!! 8-(
Our plan is to vote Democratic in 2008. And if things don’t change radically after that, we are going to push with all our might for a third party. Let the chips fall where they may.
CTuttle @ 35
But it isn’t one we can turn away from
Loo Hoo. @ 24
I wish the Dems wouldn’t get bored with talking points, like “This is George Bush’s war, he has gotten into this mess and his party has supported everyone of his misguided ideas !“
Blaming the Iraqi Parliament is playing to Dubya’s favor.
Siun,
I try to join in when I have something to add. I always read this site: many times a day but I don’t always contribute. I am usually found over at Eschaton for no good reason other than I am used to the place, you know?
But your gracious invitation is most welcome and I appreciate it very much. I will try to contribute when I can.
Thank you very much.
E. FUDD AND BILL O’WIWWY
Bill O’Wiwwy is a wonely Wepublican stooge, cwying out for help.
Why else would he be so mad at bwoggers wike the Daiwy Kos? When he speaks of them, he is almost fwothing at the mouth.
Maybe he needs a female companion. We know something of his amowous past.
He has what he thinks is a womantic stweak. Whether he meant woofah or fawafal when he was calling that woman is not the issue.
For a man such as Mr. O’Wiwwy, I assume that sponges and chickpeas have the same amount of ewotic zest.
If he is going to surf the web, he should stick to pornogwaphy. Powitical websites like Kos are winked to weality, and Mr. O’Wiwwy is not.
rwcole–I’d ask the candidates about it simply to begin discussion about why our Democratic majority still seems to be cowed and stupid, re: FISA.
The Democratic Party is taking us in this house for granted. And we really, really resent it.
anna
I’d love to hear their honest and candid response to that question- but I doubt that we’d hear it in public.
E. FUDD @ 40
Bwiwwiant !!!
Elliott @ 37
True! It merely strengthens my desire for peace and atonement! “The Meek shall inherit…!!!” *g*
annagranfors @ 33
That old prayer, “Give me the strength to change what can be changed, the patience to bear what can not, and the wisdom to know the difference,” is worth bearing in mind. I am willing to bet that the next president of the United States will be either a republican or a democrat. I’ll even give you odds. Now given the choice, do you really have a question about which one you want? Please put at least as much energy as you put into castigating dems into defeating re-thugs. That’s all I’m saying.
Renee in Ohio and others have made an excellent point. The whole kost thing has been co opted toward the “mainstream.”
They crashed the gate and once inside they want to close the gates behind them. The only way to do that is to moderate your voice to please the folks who once locked the gates against YOU.
I rarely go to kos anymore. If I need to remind myself what it means to be a Deaniac, I’ll go to DemocracyFest.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
that seems like our only possible strategy at this point.
BigMitch @ 46
I’ll bear that cross…!!! 8-)
Best thing a candidate could have said about this issue- “I can’t explain why my collegues voted the way they did- I CAN say that when I am elected president I will remove this practice by executive order and request that congress remove it by statute as some of my first acts in office.”
rwcole–we need to demand it, in public. YKos would’ve been a good place–indeed, the best place–to do that, Matt Bai be damned. and even (or even especially) if it had been shouted out from the audience, I think all–well, most–present would have stood behind the sentiment.
Siun @ 20
Thanks so much.
Big Mitch, If Dem Hillary stays in Iraq with 50k troops (no telling how many paid militia) on an endless killing occupation, that makes her (or we Dems who vote for her) better than neo republicans?
Give me a break.
O/T We are through 5 and Glavine’s on his way to #300 with a shutout and a 3 run cushion.
Why exactly were corporate media puppets like Anderson Cooper and Matt Bai allowed to moderate YKos sessions? I can’t imagine a bigger insult to the gathering of netroots and bloggers than letting the useless TV and print “journamalists” take over the event that way.
rwcole @ 50
Appointing a credible AG would be a significant stride forward! Whitehouse, Leahy, Jackson-Lee, etal… Hmmm… ;-)
Lahoma has just finished reading this post. And she’s angry. How do I know this? She’s not talking.
Eureka Springs @ 53
there are two things that give me hope about Hillary.
First, given that she chooses public policy decisions completely by triangulation, that means she can be directed by the people. All we have to do is win in public opinion, and Hillary will tag along.
Second, she’d appoint competent people. Which is quite a change from the last 6.5 years …
other than that, I don’t see a lot to her. Which is really a pity.
Eureka Springs @ 53
Give me a break. If the election is held today and your choices are W or HRC, would you vote or not?
puppethead @ 55
Boy, do I second this!
I will report that I was in an on-the-record meeting with Sen. Dodd who met with a small group of bloggers (Pach and I were invited and tried to do FDL proud) and Senator Dodd was quite unhappy with the votes – he does not hold back in his concern over the constitution and he’s willing to fight – not just in ‘08 but now for it.
Eureka Springs @ 53
That would have been an excellent question too. How do you feel about Blackwater, et al.
I’m sorry to say, Suin, that I have your answer, but it’s not mine at all. It’s George Orawell. Animial farm. Where the animals look in the wondow, an I believe the horses (I read the book a long time ago) were having tea in the farm house, with the pigs, and Orawells’s observation was that it was difficult for the rest of the animals to tell the difference between the horses and the pigs.
That’s where we are, today, as depressing as it is. And those of us who would like to avoide a huge fight to get this country back (including me) are not going to get our wish. The Democrats sound like the Republicans because they are, for the most part, exactly like the Republicans. Rich. This is not a war of ideas. This is a class war. The rich against the rest of us.
Which is not to say that the rich will win. I don’t believe that at all, and history supports my conclusion. But it is going to be a long and bloody battle, where we cannot depend on our elected representitives to do the right thing. Because they won’t. Not unless we get VERY active, and make them understand that they work of us. We have some power that is untapped. Think about it, because it’s pretty obvious. But I’m not going to detail it here, or someone (as has happened before) is going to say “Hey, that’s a great idea. I’m glad I thought of it.
There is a way to play hard ball, and we do have the resources, but the question is, do we have the stomach to do it?
BigMitch–I’m not castigating the entire party–there’s some great people in office (see Darcy Burner). I’m just saying that many of “our” Democratic party aren’t necessarily ours, and might even be closer to the Connecticut For Lieberman party.
WE are the Democratic party. we need to find out if those who supposedly represent us want to join up.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 57
Never a good sign! At least, ya know it’s not directed at you!!! ;-0
When we leave Iraq, and we will, I hope that we leave in a way that minimizes the reaction that “We lost because we just didn’t have the guts to win”.
That leads to decades of poison that will spread through the system, creating a generation of militarists.
Vote for someone who will get us out- in a way that leads to the realization that we did all that could reasonably be done- and we worked hard to minimize killings afterwards.
puppethead @ 55
Hoofah. Anderson Cooper, eegads. Kos is becoming the indy band that has a top 10 hit.
-GSD
We do not understand that our party does not understand that we elected them last November to get us out of Iraq.
annagranfors @ 64
True, We are the Democratic party, they’re not!!! :-(
Siun @ 61
Then we’d better get in there and support him. And voting for the Dems in 08 is not the answer. I’m not saying third party yet, but I am saying major political bloodshed in our own party before that. Remember, money is blood in politics.
GSD
–”Anderson Cooper, eegads. Kos is becoming the indy band that has a top 10 hit.”
hee hee. :) and right on.
BigMitch – that boy in that picture does not see a difference between W and Hilary. That’s the point I’m trying to make at least.
And we are ages from the election and have already been told – not just by the MSM and the party but more and more by fellow “netroots” that we have a top tier and damn well better like one of them.
Where’s the fervor and belief that pushed Howard Dean to a plausible position – we don’t even try?
GSD @ 67
I don’t know who Bai is but if they are going to turn YearlyKos over to the media, it’s toast. There will probably be one more next year and then it’s done.
It is infuriating to me that our Democratic candidates are unable or unwilling to tackle the really important issues that address serious quality of life situations for us, our children and their children. We aren’t just driving this country over a cliff, but the the entire planet.
I saw a flag bumper sticker on a car in traffic this weekend and realized that the sight of the American flag made me angry. Thanks to the little flag pins on the lapels of war criminals and the twisting of patriotism into an excuse for aggression and war without end, I can no longer look upon the American flag as something to take pride in. Instead all I feel is shame and anger. That is what the Neocons have done and I just don’t believe that a single Democratic candidate has what it takes to undo what has been done.
I wish Bill O would ask me why I hate America. I would tell him that I don’t hate America, but I resent those who like him have twisted our symbols into something evil in their greedy pursuit of personal power and wealth. Throwing our young men and women into a meat grinder, killing civilians, raping our environment and grinding the poor into the ground with the jack-booted heel of power, the Bush administration and their GOP lapdogs have made America and Americans the face of evil and hypocrisy throughout the world. And because the other two branches of government have either been bought or blackmailed or terrified into compliance, we are stuck with it.
Maybe I can feel hope tomorrow, but right now, I just feel ashamed and angry and impotent.
I think some 60’s-style activism is in order.
Netroots must become boots and shoes on the Mall in Washington. D.C.
They cannot ignore people in the streets!
rwcole @ 66
I’m not backing Hillary. (Edwards is my man.) But don’t ya think that when Hillary talks about leaving troops in Iraq, it is to minimize killings afterward, and to administer a reconstruction and relief program? I am not a naif, but I don’t believe that she wants to continue an occupation for strategic reasons.
Twain @ 73
Perhaps that was a condition for the candidates accepting Kos’ invitation?
Keeping Americans safe cannot be limited to outfoxing global terrorists; the president must lead in such a way that shows his priority in keeping us as safe as can be in our homes, in our schools, at work, in our neighborhoods, in our travels, in our lives. That is where our efforts and, accordingly, our money must be dedicated:
fair, safe housing for all;
equal, safe educational opportunities for all, at all levels;
equitable, safe employment opportunities for all;
peaceful, safe neighborhoods for all;
well-planned, well-maintained and safe infrastructure, parks, and other publicly dedicated spaces for all;
compassionate, reasonable opportunities for all to live a medically healthful life.
If “President Bush’s top priority is the safety and security of the American people” (as the whitehouse.gov website states), this responsibility begins with — rather than inconveniently includes and often overlooks — such safety and security throughout the course of our daily lives and our whole lives.
I hope this makes sense. I think it’s what we ought to be striving for.
Cheer up- the good news is that if we get a dem prez- the goopers will be among the first to want to strip her or him of all the power that Clusterfuck rolled into his snowball.
BigMitch @ 59
Absolutely not. If our country intends to continue this madness, let it be on the wingers hands.. most of all I have to know it is not on my hands.
This is why it is unacceptable to me that Hillary cannot say her vote for war was the worst mistake in her lifetime.. Perhaps a million needless dead and she can’t say whoops!
As a native Arkansan who’s family always supported the Clintons, I can see this horific error of ways, why can’t others?
CTuttle @ 65
;0)
rwcole – have you read the Nation article on the behavior of our troops in Iraq? The one by Chris Hedges?
I find it a very clear answer to any idea of our ability to minimize damage.
George @ 75
Let’s steer clear of Watts, Newark, Detroit, etal…
GSD @ 67
GSD: You are, as always, spot on.
Success is if Anderson Cooper needs Kos; failure is if Kos decides it needs Anderson Cooper.
rwcole @ 66
The problem with this is that we are the problem. Our presence in Iraq is the fuse that keeps the explosions going. Almost all Iraqi’s are agreed on one thing, US troops must leave before Iraqi’s can settle their differences. Got to stop believing we can fix everybody elses problems. That’s how we get in these situations in the first place
MItch- I really don’t know why she says it- and I really don’t know what she’d do about it if elected- I DO think that if she were elected and if Bill is Sec of State- he would do the best job possible of smoothing over the retreat on the foreign front.
Mrs DWD is traveling to Spain in September. She is accumulating a wardrobe now that will have nothing in English written on the shirts (though this is normal for her to wear) She does not want anyone to know she is American. Think about that.
Can you think of a more pathetic legacy for the criminals in charge of our country than our citizens are ashamed to be identified as Americans?
George @ 75
Streets take more commitment than keyboards. That said, I am glad to do my part, as I believe the powerful extension of sharing ideas on the net is physical presence in protest, and cash in campaigns.
SeamusD @ 85
And spending $12 Bil every month while learning this painful lesson…!!! 8-(
Back to the edge. The U.S. is spending $10 billion per month of occupy Iraq: “$3,850/second. The amount the govt has contributed/pledged for refugee relief to the UNHCR is $36 million only. And that relief, presumably, does not help the folks still living in their homes without water or electricity. People are contracting typhus and other water-borne illnesses.
It’s unacceptable either for candidates to stick to asinine talking points about the Iraqi government “stepping up to the plate” (by allowing oil to be plundered by US and foreign oil companies) and ignoring the current suffering as though it has nothing to do with us. But we have to hold the issue aloft–by writing our reps, talking to candidates and their organizers…any way to get the word out.
It isn’t about waiting for the right person to vote for–it’s about making sure that those who want our votes truly understand what they’re expected to make manifest. (And true reparation, by the way, ain’t gonna happen on a balanced budget–another thing Richardson’’s pushing.)
Finally–back to that edge again–it isn’t only about what our government does, but what we do, too. If you can make the stretch, please consider donating to the International Federation of Red Cross, Red Crescent: http://donate.ifrc.org/
George…we’ve marched, and been ignored. (if the media don’t report it, and make it part of the news cycle, it didn’t happen.)
we need to go for a far simpler lowest common denominator…a general strike. but we need to be prepared for stubbornness, because these creeps ain’t giving power up easily.
DWD -Nearing Tinder Point @ 22
DWD:
How long have we, the netroots, been an organized force?
Four years, tops.
Considering what we’ve been up against, we’ve come a long way.
Remember, it took the right wingers in the GOP sixteen years — from 1964 to 1980 — to go from pariahs post-Goldwater’s defeat to controlling the country via Reagan. In the four years we’ve been up and running, we’ve gone farther than they have.
The two big things we need to do:
1) Take back or create our own media (the right wingers made this their top priority, and so should we).
2) Get the money out of politics, via the plan being implemented in several states through http://www.publicampaign.org. The less money needed to run for office, the less perceived need to sell out for the big bucks.
Siun @ 72
The boy in the picture does not have the power to elect the next POTUS, you do … it is important that you know the difference between W & Hillary or between the current Repugs and Hillary and there is a huge difference between HRC and the Repugs.
I am sensing we are upset. I don’t think this is a bad thing.
There was a time when our party would savor the moment.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 28
Amen.
Seam
“We are the problem”
I don’t buy that- we are PART of the problem- but the tensions leading to this violence are the product of decades of hatred and a power vacuum that we created by ousting Saddam- those features will be there long after we leave. At the moment- both sides are practicing limited genocide- each trying to clear the other out of territory they want to control.
Twain @ 73
Matt Bai is an insider print journalist, who is a Harvard Institute of Politics resident fellow (hah! Harvard, what a joke). He also is a contributing editor to New York Times Magazine. He’s been serving as a corporate media political journalist for a long time.
But to appreciate Matt Bai, read his opinions on “juvenile” bloggers. First he says we get mad because we only waste our time watching TV, then he says we’re uncivil. What a pompous ass he is.
He was given the presidential session at YKos. I’m sure he’ll be having a good laugh with his office mates this week over how he’s played bloggers for fools.
I want a fair settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian situation. All this Condi crap is not fooling us.
The US is now in the process of making the inevitable departure much worse..
We have begun to arm and fund Sunni/Baathist/Saddam militias. They are calling truce against the US so that they can husband their resources to fight the Maliki Govt.
Even though I don’t give Maliki lasting till the end of the year.
The reports of him not being able to control his government are becoming deafening….O’Hanlon said something to the effect of “Maliki needs to be gone, but the US can’t be seen as having removed him’.
Sort of a ‘will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest’ line put out there.
The more the US continues cutting deals with their former adversaries, the more likely Iran gets drawn in to support embattled friendlies.
As usual, the US is doing the worst possible of several options. Blowback, blowback, blowback.
-GSD
The US is also increasing the number of air raids dramatically….Not a real hearts and minds winner.
Big Mitch @ 76:
THIS is why we get along so well!!
I think the Democrats are attempting to run out the clock too.
Siun, if you haven’t already, you should almost consider doing a Kos diary that brings up these YKos questions. Granted, there’s a lot of overlap between FDL and DailyKos visitors.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
Remember, Carter was crucified for his honorable opinion on the Palestinians’ Plight!!!
Perhaps the CIA will give us another dictator- they haven’t forgotten how have they?
puppethead @ 97
I am truly amazed that that sort would be allowed to have anything to do with YK. What an absurd thing and do we know who chose these people? He sounds like a perfect (and typical) MSM. I’m sure he did enjoy a good laugh.
Petrocelli @ 93
There lies the path to great disappointment. HRC has always been a moderate Republican–the rhetoric has changed over time, not her.
Iraq was not seething with sectarian problems over the centuries … that is part of the lie used to justify the occupation but it is not accurate.
Laura – thank you for posting the Red Crescent link …it is a very important way we can reach out to Iraqi people – and it means water and food for those who are starving and have none.
Phoenix Woman @ 102
Hmmm… DKos is too centrist for my discerning tastes…!!! *g*
CTuttle @ 103
Oh yes. I remember. I also noted that no Democrats came to his defense. I was upset.
Richardson really is right. He is thinking a fews steps ahead of the others. The civil war will probably explode with the absence of the occupying soldiers. Richardson believes the only way to get everyone to the bargaining table, including the neighboring states, is to get every last western soldier out of there. If they are going to get serious about negotiating for peace, you can’t have the occupiers as an excuse anymore to keep killing your fellow countrymen.
It’s ugly, but he’s probably right. Leaving any kind of residual force in there is a hinderance to stopping the violence.
rwcole @ 96
What part of “they don’t want us there” don’t you understand. They don’t want our help, they don’t want our sympathy, our money, our assistance, just our dust. And the least we can do after completely destroying their country is to get the f**k out.
PW – I’m not big on kos diaries – I’m very happy to have this conversation with my FDL friends and when I crosspost, I stick to Agonist where I also find an engaged group to share opinions with. Just a matter of social style I guess
but thanks.
And my concerns are being raised with people involved more directly.
CTuttle @ 103
Honorable? I think not. Crucified? You have the wrong J.C.
Phoenix Woman @ 102
Very good idea.
Aren’t you overlooking Kucinich? IMO anyone who truly considers him/her-self to be a progressive should send the message to Clinton and Obama et al that if they want to be elected president they should first go back to congress and do a better job because they have certainly not shown themselves worthy of promotion – talks, as they say, is cheap. We should stand behind Kucinich (since Clark, Feingold and Gore are out) and do it early – demonstrating that we will no longer vote for political hacks who prop up corporations while letting the constitution be torn asunder and the citizens languish for the America of their hopes and dreams. If either Clinton or Obama becomes our nominee we have already lost -regardless of the outcome of the general election.
Richardson – of course – actually has genuine experience in Iraq and the region. He’s forming his position based on real knowledge – a shocking idea it seems.
Petrocelli @ 93
Yup. For one thing: As much as I dislike her, Hillary would never have nominated Samuel Alito or John Roberts to the Supreme Court, and she definitely didn’t vote to confirm them.
I still think that Edwards will make it in. He’s doing what Kerry did in 2003: Letting the two early-money winners beat each other up.
Although the media doesn’t say the US is funding Sunni/Baathist/Saddam elements, the newly minted catch word is ‘tribal shiekhs’.
Funny that phrase is bandied about as much as ‘we’ll stand down when they stand up’ was bandied about a few years ago.
-GSD
Siun
Thanks for the link- I wasn’t saying that we need to stay on to keep the peace- I was saying that whoever gets us out needs to handle the problems of a violent aftermath and a long term political blowback VERY WELL- or the cost of withdrawal will be enormous.
BigMitch @ 113
Aah, Mitch, let’s address the ‘illegal’ settlements in the WB, how’s about the Wall?!!! Give me a break!!! *g*
Hilary is supporting the idea that we need to keep extensive “residual” forces in Iraq … the numbers quoted for her plan at @70,000. She will not describe an exit strategy and she will not apologize for her vote.
I will not vote for her. (that’s a period ;->
Siun, I hear you loud and clear.
The most important positioning that bloggers can do at this moment in time is to give voice to the EXPERTS.
If we are appalled at the idea of Bush (read: Cheney and Rove) crafting legislation & policy, WE need to do some of that ourselves and then take it to our reps.
We must go into our meetings with our reps armed to the teeth with alternative solutions backing the scientists, engineers, social workers, teachers, corrections officers, drug rehabilitation spec*alists, labor and wage experts, alternative living architects, etc.
This is the void that the blogosphere stands to fill. We must craft competing policy and wave the dollar bills saying this is what we will support.
Methinks our reps are incredibly underinformed and the real travesty of it is that they are way too ashamed to admit it, and because we’ve elevated all reps of all forms to the status of hero/ine, we are partly to blame.
I am reading like a fiend to get more info on all the things I care about, so I can become more conversant. If I can ever pull together my own blog, I will invite those experts to write freely.
Some of this needs to be done regionally
and some of this done nationally.
h/t to N=1 for starting a policy blog.
That seems to be exactly where we need to go!
This is where my thoughts are now.
Let’s keep talking — freely
peace to you & everyone staying in the mix!
CTuttle @ 108
Those Kossacks also need to funnier.
Seam
“they don’t want us there”
That’s a different issue from “we ARE the (whole) problem.
In fact most Iraqis seem to want us to leave soon- but not yet.
Kos is so yesterday.
It’s obviosu that success has turned him/them/it… into a the same type of inertial mass that cannot think outside the box.
There too focused on electing democrats. We should be more focused on getting people with the right ideas and values elected and if it in the D party OK… but if the D party is republican light then we need to take the net roots to a new party and invite the outside the box thinkers over.
People are afraid of 3rd parties because or Perot and Nadar.
Maybe Gore will start a 3rd party.. get dean over there and som other progressives. Maybe a lot of Dems will jump ship. I think if the repukes crash a new landscape is possible. That assumes that we are not held in a fascist state with a make believe democracy where nothing matters.
We are so far to the right these days a little lefting is not doing it for me.
Siun, Could you possibly you find out how Matt Bai was chosen and why others were not considered or suggest a place where I might ask?
Siun @ 107
It sure seems that all of this Sunni/Shiite civil war stuff has been carefully nurtured and cultivated.
Doesn’t it help to set the table for the regional chessgame…
-GSD
I just wish Richardson wasn’t such a buffoon on so many other fronts. His last appearance on MTP was embarassing. One of the worst prepared candidates I’ve ever seen.
Eureka Springs @ 125
He won the weenie toss competition.
-GSD
GSD @ 128
I suppose it actually isn’t funny but that made me laugh. Thanks
rwcole @ 123
rw, it’s their politicians that want us to stay, not the people. Just like here.
I asked Lahoma what she thought about going to Chicago and doing this Kos thing a couple of weeks ago. I kinda wanted to go. She said “kiddo, I don’t think they could handle us, but we can go if you really would like to”. I decided not to go. She was right. Again.
CJ @ 115
Was Kucinich present at YKos2? I agree with you. Kucinich is the most progressive candidate. Kucinich was the only one who did a reasonably good job at the Tillman debacle. He tripped-up Rummy.
Siun @ 116
I do like Richardson, but, of the declared’s I like Edwards followed closely by, Obama, my Homey!!! *g*
DWD -Nearing Tinder Point @ 87
Good luck with that. She’ll have to show her passport in order to get money and upon check-in at the hotels. She might want to consider ordering some t-shirts that would indicate she is Canadian.
Eureka Springs @ 125
I believe Gina Cooper selected him because she likes him. He was on a media panel at last year’s YKos and got reamed (but good) by the assembled multitudes. People were giving him all kinds of shit about Judy Miller. It was amusing. He got blamed for every MSM sin of the last 20 years. And he’s probably not 40 years old.
Last summer at YKOS when I was managing media, Gina told me on the last day that she and Matt Bai had a great idea – to hold a NYT sponsored Presidential Debate at YKOS2. She also told a gang of FDL Lamont volunteers the same thing in CT when we were all there before the primary.
So I believe that was the origin of the forum and the choice of moderator but I know nothing beyond that.
I did, for the record, say that I thought the idea of the netroots was that we no longer need the NYT to legitimize us but that was simply my opinion and shortly thereafter I stopped working with YKOS so I could devote my time to FDL media and Lamont.
“Excuse me, can you tell me where this bus is going?”
Drive – R.E.M.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM_BKQnolhQ
Siun,
Just my 2 cents, but I think we all are suffering from a case of the “Blues” right now brought on by inumerable kicks in the shin (or higher).
Stuff like the FISA Surrender seems to be but more icing on a cake made of shite.
And like with YKos, if it has been raining on our parade lately (and seemingly for far too long), one tends to see through the glass darkly.
I’m not in any way suggesting that all this bad stuff ain’t bad, and that it ain’t happening, but no matter how dispirited at times one becomes, good stuff still happens, and it still is worth striving for.
Tomorrow is another day, and in case you forgot (no such luck *g*), we all still have to “live” it.
Might as well push on ’cause sitting down or slinking back ain’t in our nature.
Forward to the future we fools go, fingers crossed and fortune we hope, our friend.
so here’s where we are loosing the thread;
we are letting the administration frame the debate as if it’s America that caused the problem and as if it’s a problem that had anything to do with our national security
this wad the president caused has undermined our national security but worse then that he was informed it would undermine our national security
in his depraved “strategy” he deliberately de stabalized the middle east, the very purpose was to initiate unending war
that is the very purpose of this mess and that purpose is being served
the president caused the problem, he lied us into this mess with deliberate methodology and it because of him and his depravity that we are where we are today’
this must be brought up each and every time there is a discussion about Iraq
each and every time
we have to stop deferring to the president and his decisions, he has no military clue and it is clear he is determined to remain in Iraq and it is clear he is determined to saddle the next two administrations with Iraq
and that is how we need to frame this issue
we need to say things like:
“it’s obivious the president was determined to get us into Iraq even though it exacerbated our fight against terrorism
it’s also obvious he intends on saddling future administrations with the wad of endless war he’s created.
is military insight is inept, his opinvion and knowledge of national security is dangerous
we are determined to fix the problemes this administration has caused and we are determined to make sure the strategy of keeping future administrations straddled in Iraq will fail”
this is what we need to do, we need to stop deferring to the president and stop deferring to cheney
instead we need to refer to these two as stooges who have no clue what so ever
lina @ 135
Has Bai ever written for Rolling Stone or am I thinking of someone else?
Now I’m getting fired up about Hillary again.
DWD at 87,
Imagine not just living with that kind of paranoia on holiday, but 24/7. My daughter’s spouse is a member of of the German Diplomatic Corps and they are currently stationed in New Zealand. She has spent the past five years traveling all over the world to continue her education and be as close to him as she could be. He was stationed in Afghanistan for two years and during that time she could only see him when he returned to Germany for holiday. I have to tell you, when someone assumes that she is German or Canadian she doesn’t go out of her way to correct them. It’s one thing to live inside a bubble the way W does. It is quite another to go out in this big wide world and have people who hear you speak and instantly decide you are evil because you are an American.
CTuttle @ 120
Do I look like the fucking MIdas man? You are the second person to say, gimme a brake.
Don’t bait me into a debate about Israel, because then we will be accused of hijacking the thread. Thanks for putting illegal in quotes, though I don’t know what law is being broken. I’m sure you do.
I think it is important to keep talking about whether or not there is a future for the Democratic party, and if so, are the netroots in or out of that future. If some people here can’t see the difference between the worst Democrat and the best republican, then they are knuckleheads. (I hope that was gentle and respectful enough.)
hackworth @ 140
You’re thinking of Matt Taibbi. Different breed of animal altogether.
Hackworth – you’re thinking of Matt Taibbi who writes for RS.
Phoenix Woman @ 92
hear hear!
re: #1 — it’s amazing to see small video blurbs popping up at the different blogs.
not just YouTube or MySpaceTV – but it’s expanding.
TPMs veracifier blurbs have been kick ass.
YKC07 blurbs are in high demand.
YKC07 ustream.tv had 2500 viewers at its peak.
More please.
What a glorious thing it would be to air intelligent expertise
without being limited to 30 sec soundbytes.
We must educate. TV is an ally in this battle.
and re: #2 – omg — you said it PW!!!!
I’d love to see more engineers, scientists, educators, human service, etc.
“everyday peeps” candidates make it onto the Hill.
Lahoma just came out of her shower and tells me that Senator Clinton is “pushing the envelope”. That does it.
BigMitch @ 76
No Bigmitch I don’t think that. She is in bed with AIP*C and the Neo-cons. I don’t think she wants us leave Iraq. period.
Siun @ 121
I am confused. If Hilliary is the Dem candidate who will you vote for?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
Tis the truth! Schumer and Rahm Emanuel have been playing this/us for political theater.
If you want ‘real people’ in office, the only way is through public financing of elections.
Well, thanks for the whole two mentions of Kucinich in this thread. Lotsa disgust for Hillary et.al. but Kucinich is still invisible, his good ideas notwithstanding. Guess he’s too progressive for most people though many complain about the “moderateness” of the so-called frontrunners (sellouts, I call ‘em).
Phoenix Woman @ 92
The netroots exploded onto the scene. Visitors to certain sites including this one soared. Occasionally I check the Site Meter stats, and it seems to me there hasn’t been much change in the last year or so at most places, certainly way less growth than the previous few years. This is cause for concern to me.
We have got to keep growing our numbers. Every one of us has to get people in our immediate sphere to check out places like FDL. The Conglomerate Media must be marginalized as much as possible. Alot of like-minded folks such as ourselves have found our favorite places to collaborate, but sadly as we know, we’re a very small minority of the electorate. Hence, we have “liberal” candidates blaming the victims of Iraq, and other Ruturd Murdoch-approved sloganeering at “our” convention fer chrissakes!
I put alot of trust in Howard Dean. He’s got a tough tightrope act to walk in his current job, but I feel like he’s being pretty subversive from within “the system.” The 50-state Strategy is a huge step in the right direction. But again, to ensure there is enough of a movement to back him up and sustain this stuff, it is crucial to get more people on board with us. Tomorrow, tell someone about FDL.
montag @ 144
Thanks. I needed that. Taibbi seems like an okay dude. I’m not familiar with Bai. Too bad Kos didn’t have Taibbi.
Mad Dogs @ 151
Actually it is more than theater for them. They want longterm US presence in Iraq as well as far as I can see. That is the problem with the DCC. They’ve sold out.
Steve-AR @ 149
We’re going to work hard to make sure she is not our candidate, cause she is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
If it comes down to Senator Clinton as the nominee I will vote for her to help rid the WH of Republicans.
puppethead @ 97
He’s written a book on bloggers, to be published this month.
Oh, I don’t think I am disagreeing very much and yes the internet has been a boon to the sentient people in this country. It has allowed those of us who think to find others who do the same. That is a wonderful thing, and I would certainly not say or do anything to diminish this.
However the media that reaches the majority of people is still the television/radio/newspaper industry and these remain very much in the hands of those who are opposed to returning this country to the “people.” Just this day I was explaining to my older sister that the story of the lady astronaut wearing diapers on her way to Florida to accost the girlfriend of her lover with a pellet gun was false and she was not aware of it.
This is what we have to fight, and I am not sure how to do it. The idea of the lady wearing the diapers became the story even though it was later proven false. No matter how many retractions are issued it will never matter as that image is forever frozen in the minds of America.
Al Gore invented the Internet: a lie yet it remains no matter how many times it is denied. John Edward’s haircuts! And on and on. This controlling of the media is not something amenable to confrontation from the netroots. In fact, the only viable way to stop this categorization of people is to simply prevent it from happening and there is the rub for without the power to prevent this stupifying echo chamber effect we are powerless to defeat it.
In my current novel, CHALLENGE, I go into great detail about messaging and how people control not only the message but what the reaction to the reaction of the message will be. The people who do this are much more subtle than we ever credit them with being.
To the intelligent they seem boorish and almost comical in their machinations, but I would caution everyone to be careful for YOU are not the intended audience.
And public funding of elections: yes, sounds like a great idea. When I was eighteen it was a great idea. Now that I am nearing fifty-eight it is still a great idea. When I am seventy-eight it will still be a great idea I am sure. . .
Phoenix Woman @ 117
I hope you’re right, PW … next to Gore, I think Edwards is the best choice for POTUS … and if Gore wins the nomination, I hope that he chooses Edwards as his VP.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 151
You said a mouthful there, Kiddo. Ain’t it the truth!
Saturday night I was downtown
Working for the F.B.I.
Sitting in a nest of bad men
Whiskey bottles piling high
Bootlegging boozer on the west side
Full of people who are doing wrong
Just about to call up the DA man
When I heard this woman sing a song
A pair of 45s made me open my eyes
My temperature started to rise
She was a…
Long Cool Woman (in a Black Dress) – The Hollies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP94PlEtsEQ
Eureka Springs @ 126
Ditto for AC !
If the US starts into a recession, the 10 billion dollar a month tab in Iraq may weigh more heavily on Americans than any number of Iraqi deaths, unfortunately.
As to the economy:
I don’t know if this is a sign of what is to come, but the president of Bear-Stearns has resigned.
-GSD
As far as Kucinich, He’s won over three more voters in NH, perhaps five by my tally.
Also, if you are looking for a canary in the coal mine, the ever wily N.L. Gingrich is getting aboard the enviro green bus and has taken to throwing the Republican Party under the bus.
Well, someone needs to tell Gina we know a sharp woman who appears on CNN, named Jane Hamsher, that would ask excellent questions.
Unless and until we Americans more fully know about and understand post WW2 American ME policy form-ups and put-throughs it will not be possible to stop,slow or turnaround what is in very deep ways the historical pattern for WashDC in the Middle East or much of Asia.
The Bush/Cheney regime did not invent what is taking place now in Iraq at the hand of USA.
They are pushing old policy objectives however with much more American ME militarism and overt western corporatism fully in the mix.
The American Oil War in Kuwait was the opening conflict to what is now taking place in Iraq.
The Americans clearly are not in Iraq because we are wonderful,compassionate human beings.
The levels of mayhem,death-dealing and suffering Americans have brought to Iraq point to our repeated failures to do good or be a force for good in Iraq.
The convoluted American/British/Western tilt and slant to the Iraq Petroleum Law is a much more telling version of why Americans invaded and now occupy Iraq.
Which is also why and best reason all Americans should leave Iraq. We have little or no credibility in Iraq.
Sooner. Better.
Sadly American ME historical postures and positions will push in the other direction.
Hillary seems stuck on this as well.
More importantly American abject failure to address Arab Palestine injustices due to the brutal,low quality of Israels occupation and worse still intended expungement of Arab Palestine points to a deeper American failure which preceded American invasion/occupation of Iraq.
Unless or until that American ME policy/intent failures are openly addressed and corrected all else the Americans try to push,say or do in ME is/remains very suspect on/in integrity,validity or credibility.
[Siun - I apologize in advance for the length and semi-off topic nature of my comment here, but I wanted to share this information with those who are still trying to understand and come to grips with what transpired in the House over the last two days. I hope these details help us to start to better focus our ongoing efforts to pressure and force our government to obey and uphold the Constitution.]
Some facts [as best I can glean them from Congressional websites, with Saturday’s House action in the Rules Committee and the House, and Friday’s Senate action not yet available on-line] about the House Committee on Rules action that led to the passage of the unConstitutional FISA legislation on 8/4/07 (aka your “open, honest” Democratic Congress at work):
1. Friday, August 3rd’s action on FISA was provided for on Wednesday, August 1 with an unrecorded voice vote in the House Committee on Rules (the evening after Nancy Pelosi’s cozy dinner with George and Laura Bush at the White House, in the company of her husband…), which successfully reported out to the House a resolution to allow consideration of motions to suspend the rules; specifically with regard to two bills during (only) Friday’s legislative day (H.Res. 600 and Rules Committee Report #110-291). The two bills to which this Rules Committee resolution (#600) would apply if passed by simple majority were a bill (H.R. 3087; Armed Services Committee Report #110-283) requiring development of a plan for redeployment from Iraq (which was apparently never brought up on Friday), and an unspecified FISA amendment “to establish a procedure for authorizing certain electronic surveillance.” Rep. Peter Welch of Vermont was the Democratic Manager of this Rules Committee resolution.
http://www.rules.house.gov/Spe…..ewsID=2837
2. The House took up H.Res. 600 (allowing for August 3rd motions for consideration of motions to suspend the rules and the regular calendar order for two bills – amended on the floor to three bills) on Friday, August 3rd, upon request of Rep. Alcee Hastings (of both the Rules Committee and the Intelligence Committee), and then passed that Rules Committee resolution #600 by 228-196 after debate. In the midst of that debate, it finally emerged that the FISA bill to be considered if made in order by passage of H.Res. 600, would be H.R. 3356 (apparently via the Judiciary Committee). Accordingly, after passage of H.Res. 600 by simple majority, John Conyers then moved “to suspend the rules and pass the bill (H.R. 3356)”, which then went down to defeat by a vote of 218 in favor, and 207 opposed after debate. Debate in which Nancy Pelosi stated that:
http://thomas.loc.gov/r110/r110.html
So why wasn’t majority approval enough for the House FISA bill? Because (as Nancy Pelosi knew full well) even with passage of the Rules Committee special rule to make H.R. 3356 ‘in order’ for consideration by the House on Friday, the actual FISA vote itself nevertheless required a 2/3rds vote to suspend the rules and pass:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/ind…..ecial_days
3. Saturday, August 4th’s FISA bill action was set in motion by 8:05 p.m. on Friday (and entered on the calendar of the House upon passage in the Rules Committee by another unrecorded voice vote), August 3rd: another Rules Committee special order resolution allowing for consideration of motions on Saturday to suspend the rules for two bills [this time the funding of MN bridge repair and a (still unspecified) FISA bill (both H.Res. 613)] AND the following resolution (H.Res. 614) to allow a simple majority vote for consideration of any Rules Committee resolutions on two matters (the FY 2008 defense appropriations bill and FISA) taken up in the House on Saturday, Sunday or Monday if acted upon the same day any such special rule resolutions were reported out of the Rules Committee (which otherwise would have required a 2/3rds vote to be acted upon the same day the Rules Committee reported):
http://www.rules.house.gov/Spe…..ewsID=2842
The Democratic Rules Committee manager of both Rule Resolution #613 and #614 was Rep. Jim McGovern of Massachusetts (sorry, selise!). Again, the specific FISA bill language contemplated was not included: only the same generic FISA language of August 1’s H.Res. 600 was in H.Res. 613 and H.Res. 614. So rank and file Democrats presumably could have still expected a non-Senate Democratic FISA bill (like H.R. 3356) to be brought up on Saturday under this further rule to allow a 2/3rds vote to suspend the rules and pass, following majority-vote passage of the Rules Committee Resolutions #613 and #614.
But that’s not what happened, as we all know. Something else was issued (enabled by H.Res. 614) on Saturday by the Rules Committee, that enabled passage by simple majority vote of the underlying FISA bill, which turned out to be the Senate’s version this time. Monday we’ll be able to find out exactly what the rule was that the House Rules Committee passed on Saturday that waived, or otherwise bypassed the requirement that the Senate FISA bill also pass with a required-2/3rds majority suspension of the rules. [In other words, what the extra enabling by way of the rules for the Senate FISA bill was that Speaker Pelosi didn’t see fit to provide for her own House FISA bill H.R. 3356 the day before, even as she declared to the American people that the Senate FISA language was “absolutely unacceptable”…]
Question: How many of the rank and file members of the Democratic Party in the House understood what was happening on Friday with the rigged 2/3rds vote, that was doomed to failure in advance?
House Committee on Rules membership:
LOUISE McINTOSH SLAUGHTER, NY – CHAIRWOMAN
JAMES P. McGOVERN, MA
ALCEE L. HASTINGS, FL
DORIS O. MATSUI, CA
DENNIS CARDOZA, CA
PETER WELCH, VT
KATHY CASTOR, FL
MICHAEL ARCURI, NY
BETTY SUTTON, OH
Ranking Minority Member
DAVID DREIER, CA
LINCOLN DIAZ-BALART, FL
DOC HASTINGS, WA
PETE SESSIONS, TX
Good evening, Siun and everyone,
HRC can say she’s going to leave a residual force in Iraq all she wants, but I just don’t believe it. Even at 150K troops, the country is not controllable; reduce that by 2/3 and the position of US troops In Iraq will quickly become untenable. I believe she knows this. She seems to me to feel her viability as a candidate would be damaged if she advocated total, immediate, and complete withdrawal.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 141
Lahoma, bless her heart, ever complain of whiplash, livin’ wit’ you, hon? *g*
Oklahoma kiddo @ 152
I agree but we have to play the card we are dealt. It’s 16 months and counting..if we don’t take back the machinery of govt on 01/20/09…then the thugs won’t even bother to pretend to obey the law..the secrete search warrants and arrests will be the norm.
You are so right and I don’t get it that the blogs are not 100% behind Kucinich or equiv. Except that all the “bloggers” that have become “popular” have been courted by the MSM and now it seems those bloggers have drank the kool-aid and don’t know their ass from their heads anymore due to all the primping before primetime. Fucking power and money dictates everytime. The headline still reads “We’re fucked and I’ll add NOW MORE THAN EVER.
“Just this day I was explaining to my older sister that the story of the lady astronaut wearing diapers on her way to Florida to accost the girlfriend of her lover with a pellet gun was false and she was not aware of it.” In all seriousness, this is the first I am hearing that the story was false. I just assumed it was another case of an Alaskan man driving a woman to distraction. Happens all the time.
Siun,
P.S. two things that ticked me off about YKC07.
1) maybe just a dunderheaded blatant diversion by
Bai, but wtf was with touting that the “seating assignments” were random for the Candidates forum. Puh-leez. If it’s not true, don’t even say it.
The selection of questions was in the soft-ballish range, the distribution of questions and duration for response was no different than MSM.
Needs work.
2) Did you notice anything odd about the much ballyhooed slate of Netroots candidates? If anything screams loudly about how little progress has been made.
It was the photo of a dozen or more white males, one female and one male (possibly African American).
Needs work.
From article just up on Salon tonight, “Cheerful Boos for Hillary” by Michael Scherer:
“The only candidate who was booed louder than Clinton at Saturday’s presidential debate was the unlikely left-winger Dennis Kucinich. He made the mistake of aping one-time presidential candidate Ralph Nader, who regularly attacked the Democratic leadership as a bunch of sellouts. “Why don’t people vote?” Kucinich asked, rhetorically. “It’s because they don’t think there is much of a difference between the two parties.”
The booing immediately drowned Kucinich out. He had committed a cardinal sin, demeaning the Democratic Party before a crowd that works countless unpaid hours a week to make the party stronger. He had also provided, inadvertently, another reason for Clinton to smile. The YearlyKos community may not be her most natural constituency, but it is also unlikely to be her enemy. All she has to do is keep showing it respect.”
I usually sit back and read and quietly learn from you guys; been here since the old Oregon days when dear Jane first started the Lake. But I just read this and it bugged me – seemed to fit this thread – and thought I’d throw it out. Boo’d Kuchinich, for a statement I’ll bet most of you here would agree with?! What the hell??? And the bit at the end about Hillary insulted me for some reason – smacked of an implication of her “playing us” … I am so damn sick of being “played, manipulated, etc., etc., etc.” Just try telling me the truth, supporting my constitutional rights, and staying out of the pig sty money trough of big business. Play me that way OK?????
Will go back to lurking now … thanks all for all the intelligent insights, snark, perspective ~ and hope.
GSD @ 165
the middle class is already in recession, we already don’t maintain our infrastructure, we already don’t have adequate health care, we already don’t have the investments we made into our retirment fund and it is unlikely we will be able to fund our kids college education
that said, the worst has yet to start
china and suadi arabia will soon call the note of our debt
what will that mean?
they will begin to buy resources in America with the dollars they have aquired through this debt the president is paying buy printing more money then in the history of America
once they start to buy assets they will over pay to aquire…they will spend twice what a building is worth, 4 times what a bussines is worth…they will just want assets
when those dollars are released into our economy our dollar will fall like it did when we were paying off viet nam
I am surprised this hasn’t happened already but I do believe it is inevitable
GSD @ 164
Here’s why the president of Bear-Sterns has resigned. And why American Home Mortgage is filing bankruptcy.
On Friday the Dow Jones took a 280 point nosedive on fears that that losses in the subprime market will spill over into the broader economy and cut into GDP. Ever since the two Bears Sterns hedge funds folded a couple weeks ago the stock market has been writhing like a drug-addict in a detox-cell. Yesterday’s sell-off added to last week’s plunge that wiped out $2.1 trillion in value from global equity markets. New York investment guru, Jim Rogers said that the real market is “one of the biggest bubbles we’ve ever had in credit” and that the subprime rout “has a long way to go.”
snip>
This week a third Bear Stearns fund shuttered its doors and stopped investors from withdrawing their money. Bear’s CFO, Sam Molinaro, described the chaos in the credit market as the worst he’d seen in 22 years. At the same time, American Home Mortgage Investment Corp—the 10th-largest mortgage lender in the U.S. —said that “it can’t pay its creditors, potentially becoming the first big lender outside the subprime mortgage business to go bust”. (MarketWatch)
snip>
This is big news, mainly because AHM is the first major lender OUTSIDE THE SUBPRIME MORTGAGE BUSINESS to go belly-up. The contagion has now spread through the entire mortgage industry—Alt-A, piggyback, Interest Only, ARMs, Prime, 2-28, Jumbo,—the whole range of loans is now vulnerable. That means we should expect far more than the estimated 2 million foreclosures by year-end. This is bound to wreak havoc in the secondary market where $1.7 trillion in toxic CDOs have already become the scourge of Wall Street.
Here’s the link
BigMitch @ 143
Peace and Good Will, Bro!!! *g*
CTuttle @ 134
I like Chris Dodd. He makes the most sense to me. And as a plus he speaks fluent Spanish (Peace Corps).
“As far as Kucinich, He’s won over three more voters in NH, perhaps five by my tally.”
Exactly, so why do people complain there’s no good ideas when someone with public oriented ideas is virtually shunned, his opinions never to be spoken of? Just that he’s unelectable. The man may be short, but last I noticed, he wasn’t invisible. What about his call for health care without the interference of insurance companies? Good idea but since HE’s the only one talking about it, we won’t mention it? I don’t get it. He wants out of Iraq but let’s not mention his name. OK, then don’t complain that Hillary gets the nom. when you won’t talk about guy with the progressive ideas.
RonD .. from what I hear, we are about to see significant increases in US troop deaths in Iraq … the Iraqis have had quite enough … and I actually do not believe that we will be able to maintain forces there for a significant length of time … but I also am very concerned at the number of Iraqis and of American soldiers who will die while the pols play their games over this. The willingness of HRC and so many of her colleagues to play with these lives is a bottom line issue for me.
which is why I find myself singing Phil Ochs songs a lot these days … like I ain’t marchin’ anymore.
Oh I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growing
The young blood started flowing
But I ain’t marchin’ anymore
For I’ve killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain’t marchin’ anymore
chorus)
It’s always the old to lead us to the war
It’s always the young to fall
Now look at all we’ve won with the saber and the gun
Tell me is it worth it all
For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others But I ain’t marchin’ anymore
For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain’t marchin’ anymore
(chorus)
For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burning I knew that I was learning
That I ain’t marchin’ anymore
Now the labor leader’s screamin’
when they close the missile plants,
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore,
Call it “Peace” or call it “Treason,”
Call it “Love” or call it “Reason,”
But I ain’t marchin’ any more,
No I ain’t marchin’ any more
Adie @ 170
She does from time to time say I am passionate in my beliefs. She never complains though. I wish we could live for a thousand years. Just so I could be near her. ;0)
Well, when I said recession, I wasn’t talking about the straits of the lowly American worker.
I was talking about friends of Larry Kudlow.
-GSD
Pow Wow, I agree, something smells like a rat!
“But that’s not what happened, as we all know. Something else was issued (enabled by H.Res. 614) on Saturday by the Rules Committee that enabled passage by simple majority vote of the underlying FISA bill, which turned out to be the Senate’s version this time.”
Excellent Point!!!
Seamus D- that is amazing. It should be the topic of a whole blog. This all could have been prevented with some oversight, and putting in place other policies that did not move to destroy the middle class (home owners). This is tragic. Each of those homes represents a family tragedy.
Siun @ 121
Finally, something we can agree on!
Siun, I have felt your frustration with this for quite some time. I’m incredibly impatient with the dems and have felt betrayed by their persisting in buying into any part of the republican/neocon discussion. Until or unless they frame the discussion in terms of total and complete withdrawal from Iraq, and let the good people of Iraq sort this thing out, I just cannot support a one of them totally. Your mentioning of Hillary is especially heartening because she, after all, will continue this insanity in a blue wrapper.
I don’t believe there is intent on anyone’s part, especially the neocons, to abandon the mega bases and embassy and let Iraq itself come to some understanding among its religious differences. I absolutely believe Iraq could and would resolve any and all issues…. if we could just get our troops out of there and our sights off the oil. I think Edwards gets this as well as domestic issues. At this point anyway.
On Richardson… I think he would make a fine Secretary of State. And I think Dodd did a great job on the smackdown of billo! I was impressed.
With the State Department telling the candidates to shut up about foreign policy on Friday, the big blame the dems campaign has begun in ernest. I just think they are all debating based on faulty premises and it will go just where its gone…. no where.
Sharon @ 179
I’m with you. You are absolutely right. I have posited my support for Kucinich early here, though I have usually prefaced the mention of his name with dark horse. Progressives should stand with Kucinich til its time to do otherwise.
For I’ve killed my share of Indians
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I heard many men lying I saw many more dying
But I ain’t marchin’ anymore
;0)
perris @ 175
Ummmm, ’scuse me. If China called its debt, as in the scenario above, the U.S. economy would be fucked big time.
China depends on U.S. consumers to purchase its exports. Why would they fuck over our economy? To buy Rockefeller Center? How many Chinese will that feed?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 141
Settle down, there, OKK.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 181
{{{OKK and Lahoma}}} you are blessed!
Horsewoman – I always love it when you share a comment with us! thank you … and Scherer is quite accurate there … I was standing off to the side and was … well … horrified … at how oh so effin’ moderate the audience was … was unsure whether to start yelling or cry but I was lucky to be standing right next to a lovely young couple – he was middle eastern, she was chinese … we spent a lot of time looking at each other is shock at the reactions … Bai’s “islamic terrorism” line, the booing of Kucinich, the interruption of Richardson … it was good to have comrades at that moment even though we never spoke.
Kucinich is also quite fearless in his opinions too.
Much more bold and brave than Sens. Obama or Clinton.
-GSD
Big Mitch, China is banking on turning their own people into a consumer class.
They know that they have to cut their losses with the US at some point so why not sooner rather than later.
CTuttle @ 177
Back at you.
Siun,
Lovely song isn’t it? One of my favorites. One of my friends at Eschaton, ProfWombat, believes that Phil Och’s Power and the Glory should be our National Anthem.
I have a lovely anti-war song you might like on YouTube. The song is written by Eric Bogle and performed my Liam Clancy and the Clancy Brothers. (I am a teacher and we study this one as a poem in my classes) I hope you enjoy, And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda. (I cried the first time I heard it: maybe you are stronger than an old softie like me)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdsIIeMlj9g
China would yank the rug out from under our economy in order to cripple our ability to oppose a big Chinese push. Like, say, in Taiwan.
History tells us that Americans have a tradition of ‘being for the underdog’. When did we lose or way on this?
BigMitch sez:
China depends on U.S. consumers to purchase its exports. Why would they fuck over our economy? To buy Rockefeller Center? How many Chinese will that feed?
As far as that goes, they may already own Rockefeller Center. They certainly can afford it right now.
BigMitch @ 188
Well for one thing, to invest more in the infrastructure of Africa and South America as they are now doing. China could do it at any time. And again, the what is chiefly to blame? Iraq!!
Sharon @ 152
Kucinich has good ideas, but in the debate he was rude to his fellow candidates. His manner seemed childish and fussy. He’s not ready for prime time, imo.
Siun @ 191
Perhaps we should have been there afterall.
TribeScribe – very good points up above … and I agree. I went back and watched the youtube this afternoon of the whole forum to see if I had just been cranky or something … but from the opening
antagonistic question to Richardson and to Dodd followed by the first question to HRC which was such a softball (tell us what you learned from your fight for health care) … it was not a pretty picture.
Loo Hoo. @ 189
Oh, alright. ;0)
Sharon at 180;
I agree with you; but unfortunately most progressives won’t look past the company line on the candidates. The press knows he is all for election finance reform and therefore they don’t give him the time of day. It’s like Pon Paul of the Repugs. The press is manufacturing consent again, this time in the run-up to the election.
I mean, how can Hillary really be a contender after the impact Sicko has had and yet she still refuses to even submit a health care policy? And I don’t care what anybody says, her “blind trust” that had stock in defense contractors and big Pharma companies is pretty sickening. She should have donated it to charity, but what did she do with the 10-15 million in profit since 2001? Converted it to cash accounts.
And she’s the progressive front-runner? Welcome to America.
Horsewoman @ 174
***
My knee-jerk problem with Kucinich’s “not much difference between the two parties” is that it’s basically, and always will be, the rationale of X-number of voters who chose Nader and handed the world to bush in 2000. If the last 7 years haven’t put the lie to the “not much difference” meme, we’re badly delusional.
Just my two cents…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 196
When we started electing Republican presidents who represent only the wealthy.
“But the meaningless talking points seemed to be all most of the candidates would offer and the challenging netroots-y questions I think we wanted raised were never asked.”
We are being played, pure and simple.
They laugh at us behind our backs.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 195
That was always a fairy tale. A more acurate analogy is that Americans are Russians with money.
Eureka Springs @ 165
That’s what I was thinking too.
DWD … ah, thank you for the link … I know the song well … was raised on the Clancy’s (LOL!)
will share a tear with you … and also vote for The Power and The Glory … what a brilliant idea!
CTuttle @ 184
I’m jumping in mid conversation here and I may just have my tinfoil on these days, but I keep going back to all these threats about the next terrorist attack being on the Dems if a make Abu god FISA bill didn’t pass. And now Nancy is talking about a new bill in Sept but we all know that is meaningless.
Siun at 202;
Curious isn’t it that they give her a pitchout like that. I mean, why didn’t they ask her why she hasn’t even submitted a healthcare proposal yet? like all the rest of them have?
Pow Wow, your timeline is important.
Will you be fleshing out the players more in a later post? I do not understand who actually controls the ‘front door’ –the bouncer who decides which bill is let onto the senate and house floors for ratification.
(and Pow Wow … thank you for all that great information … very valuable.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 196
Power is the ultimate afrodesiac.
When the Soviet Union fell and the US decided it liked thumping its chest in what was seen as a triumph.
Remember, ‘we’re an empire now’.
-GSD
Horsewoman @ 175
Shades of Ralph Nader.
I think it would be a good time for all of us to put a few bucks in the Kucinich bank – That is if anyone wants to have a raindrops prayer in hells chance of taking this country off the path it’s on heading over the grand canyon without a lifeline.
Jesus YKos was a disgrace and me thinks doomed if taken permanently over by the DLC.
DWD -Nearing Tinder Point @ 193
This song has considerable political history. I hope I don’t screw it up in the retelling. I believe it was Bob Kerrey who lost a leg in Viet Nam, and made this song his un-official theme song, as it were. Someone help me out here.
Thanks Siun ~ I mostly just read in awe of the ability this community has to express itself on subjects that I respect as being complicated for me to understand, yet know are crucially important. I suppose in a way, I’m part of the group that needs to be reached ~ caring, aware ~ but often overwhelmed by the complicated aspects of all of this; my disposition and brain capacity hits overload at much of what is discussed here … but I come back and read again and again and inevitably somebody eventually explains it in a way that makes the lightbulb go off. Jane, Christy, TRex and his delicious snark … everyone here is unique and makes this place the invaluable resource that it is. I refer people here all the time when something political going on really pisses me off and I don’t have the savvy to explain it with the clarity it deserves.
I’m sure that there are more like me out there; keep it up Firepups ~ you’re making headway trust me!
willyloman … it was stunning to see that questio n to HRC … and then the media consolidation question where she went on about open media and there was no followup about Murdoch’s support of her candidacy … c’mon!
As to Sen. Clinton, when George W. Bush’s Secretary of Defense is using your talking points, I have to say that you have ceded any chance of being progressive.
Gates says US presence to be ‘protracted’ and that a ‘residual force’ will be in Iraq for some time.
-GSD
hackworth @ 196
it was purchased by the Japanese during their big bubble boom.
Richmond sez:
Well for one thing, to invest more in the infrastructure of Africa and South America as they are now doing. China could do it at any time. And again, the what is chiefly to blame? Iraq!!
This is very true. And do you know who is planning as we speak to invest many millions in Nicaragua? Iran.
Guess who is going to drill for oil off the Cuban coast with Castro’s blessing? No, not Iran. Venezuela, of course.
The kos thing was about making a splash in the democratic party.
But just look at how and what the democratic party is? It’s republican light. Progressives are shunned.
I suspect many thought that Kos could be a trojan horse for progressives to get inside the party. But the moderates seemed to have headed that off at the pass and gotten all the kossacks confused enough to think they can influence the mainstream mush in the party… Hillary and Obama.
I’ve pretty much lost faith that we can use the system as it is to get it to do what it is supposed to do… serve the people’s needs.
This is never going to happen because the corporatists have done up the laws, the media, the courts in such a way that progressive ideas cannot fly. And the most basic way to accomplish that is to make EVERYTHING money driven. This means it’s a game for the rich and their needs. The people only give the appearance of democracy.
When kos refused to discuss 9.11… and the fact that it was a whitewash… regardless of what went down… you know he wants to be taken seriously by the oligarchs.
I think you will see more and more and more setbacks in the coming years on top of economic collapse. Then it is going to be a struggle of authoritarian style fascism against revolutionary populism.
It will get ugly.
Siun,
This is Eric Bogle with the Fureys doing THE GREEN FIELDS OF FRANCE. (Whatever the caption says – I know Mr. Bogle’s work and voice very well and this is HIM!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN-NIHbfJ1k
GSD @ 219
If we leave any troops there we will have a lot more deaths because they will have less protection. Doesn’t make any sense to me.
Twain @ 225
Can’t have an empire without troops to protect the commercial interests of the empire. Eh?
Siun at 220;
I didn’t see the open media question, but it’s important to note that not only did Murdoch support her candidacy, but that “blind trust” of hers held stock in Murdochs News Corp.
Lets not forget that NAFTA started with Bill and it enabled WalMart to make billions (2 years after Hillary left their board of directors seat to go to Washington).
CD @ 203
The not much difference between the two parties works to serve the Republicans. Their voters — wing-nuts, creationists, anti-choice activists, etc. — are highly motivated. Young voters should naturally be liberal, but the “not much difference” meme keeps them on the couch and uninterested in politics.
GSD:
Good point. But lets not forget Hillary using Rumsfelds talking points of the floor of the Senate in 2002 before the vote.
“Shades of Ralph Nader”
I think Kucinich is a Democrat.
I hear “we need to change from within the party” yet he’s trying and getting metaphorically spit upon.
Things like single payer lock out the corporate insurance companies and threated Pharma. What/who would their lobby lobby?
You can’t crush corporatism in American. It’s like being a pinko communist. Anyone who has gotten as far as HRC is a suck up to corporate america. No if ands or buts.
willyloman @ 228
And this, and especially Iraq is why I will not vote for Hillary. Any other Dems yes. She also has the most negatives among indies and Rethugs. That is why they want her to run.
OK…since I’m damp already from sticking my toes in the water :)
So educate me?
Re Kucinich sounding like Nader with that comment ~ I keep reading that people here have had it with the democrats; I’ve had it with the democrats. Keep thinking “oh, they’re getting it”, then we have crap like last night. I’m beginning to lump the parties in the same disgusted boat myself. Are there other things Kucinich advocates that smacks of Nader ~ is that one phrase he came out with worthy of the booing?
I’m disturbed by the commentator comments I’ve read about here tonight; I’m disturbed by all that Siun’s shared … I want “different”; I want some light amongst the b.s. I don’t want Nader ~ but I also want a fair chance to be given to real progressive thought.
DWD -Nearing Tinder Point @ 195
wow.
When will we ever leatn?
“Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority…” -03/20/1994, Mayor Rudy Giuliani
Siun,
TP has a post about how the artists in Iraq have been run out of town or killed.
How the Bush propagandists can continue to point to this Hobbesian hell and scream success is an affront to the soul.
There is a scene in the film Control Room where one of the Iraqi translators said that the war will bring the radicals and the warmongers to the fore and all of the quiet voices, like his, will be snuffed out.
Mission accomplished.
-GSD
pdaly, anything I learn, I’ll pass along. And anyone who has those Rules Committee members for representatives feel free to hammer them on this subject (I know selise will).
Thanks for this post, Siun. When I read Loo Hoo’s liveblog of the questions for Hillary, I wondered if there weren’t Hillary plants doing the deed… But the Kos crowd is heavily peer-pressured into jeering at non-Democratic Party approaches, from what I observe at DailyKos, so it sounds rather like a continuation of the commentary over there when the topic of Cindy Sheehan, for example, comes up.
Kucinich has good ideas, but in the debate he was rude to his fellow candidates. His manner seemed childish and fussy. He’s not ready for prime time, imo.
Kucinich and Dodd are ready for the long overdue fight we must have. I like that about both of them.
>Give me a break. If the election is held today and your choices are W or HRC, would you vote or not?
>Absolutely not. If our country intends to continue this madness, let it be on the wingers hands.. most of all I have to know it is not on my hands.
Oh right. The same way W. isn’t on the hands of Florida Nader voters in 2000.
As for our brutal occupation of Iraq, if you think things are going to get better for the Iraqis when we leave, you are kidding yourselves. Most of the bloodshed in Iraq and Afghanistan is Iraqs and Afghans killing each other for their own reasons. We ought to get out of Iraq because we can do no good in the middle of the civil war our foolish toppling of Saddam unleashed. (Much as the Bushiviks wish otherwise, we couldn’t in this post-colonial era, offer the sort of brutal occupation that could replace the brutal order Saddam provided.)
pow wow @ 168
Pow-wow,
THANKS for your lengthy explanation. THAT is exactly what I was looking for earlier today.
Not that I fully understand it. I’ve got to read thru again.
But it does appear there was some serious fuckery afloat among the leadership, rules and judiciary. WTF?
I’m glad I went sailing this weekend instead of to a “convention” with name tags.
Kos has had his 15 minutes of fame. Next up please.
I hope the FDL people pass it b y next year.
In my opinion Kucinich isn’t a leader, despite some of his good ideas. He lacks the character. Not dissing him, it’s just the way he comes across. Meanwhile I think Barack Obama has shown he’s all style and has yet to show any substance, so he’s kind of the anti-Kucinich.
GSD @ 183
Oh, you mean Chris Dodd then.
I was interested in him since he always seemed to be doing and saying the right things. After some quick research, it didn’t take long to be let down. Here’s just the tip of the iceberg.
He’s so in the pocket of the financial industry. We’re talking the richest of the rich. I think he takes more money from the financial industry than Hillary. Wasn’t he silent during that part of the Dem dust-up yesterday?
Just the other week, as chair of the Banking and Finance Committee, he was defending some bill his buds wanted that most around here were decrying. Other than that, he’s great!
realworld @ 210
Your’re not jumping in late to this conversation, yet, too late for FISA today!!! ;-)
SanderO August 5th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
You are damn right. KOS didn’t want to use the opportunity to press 911 into the forefront of discussion where it belongs. It is the only thing that will derail this Globalization Train.
Instead, KOS did what most other members of the MSM have been doing for years…playing it safe and proving to the establishment that they can be trusted to host events like this in the future.
In other words, they sold out. To the DLC and the party and the industrialists. A proud moment in the history of the blog-o-sphere. We are now Mainstream.
>When kos refused to discuss 9.11… and the fact that it was a whitewash… regardless of what went down… you know he wants to be taken seriously by the oligarchs.
What an idiot. (The poster, not Kos, who was quite right to quash that sort of lunatic conspiracy nonsense.)
rapier @ 234
Are you sure that wasn’t Benito Mussilini? I always get them confused.
rapier @ 236
Holy shit.
Where did he say that?
-GSD
“Kucinich is also quite fearless in his opinions too.
Much more bold and brave than Sens. Obama or Clinton.”
Probably why Gore is staying out: he likes being fearless in his opinions. And who needs the media grief?
As Kucinich had to wear a bullet-proof vest for a while since the powers that be were against him, I guess telling his opinion now ain’t so scary.
(poking head out from behind backstage curtain) TSF said Late Nite will be up shortly Siun.
BigMitch @ 229
I think the Democratic party is terrible in many ways but they have not yet demonstrated a willingness to destroy America and the reThugs have. The Dems have done some pretty awful, imperial things over the years (Vietnam anyone?, 8 years of moving to the right so that Bill can be loved, Carter supporting the Shaw so that we ended up with the Iran we now have, lots more… ) but they have not worked to destroy everything America stands for. The reThugs have. So I support the Dems.
BigMitch @ 188
Actually, barring a miracle, the US economy is fucked. The question for China is does it end up fucking their economy, too. It’s bank failures in Europe that triggered the Great Depression (which was centered here, but worldwide). This time it may be bank failures here that trigger it in China.
The bright side being that an FDR again becomes possible.
I wasn’t there, but from Horsewoman, Kucinich did not say there was no difference, he said voters saw now difference, and it appeared the audience didn’t make the distinction.
So happy to read this thread (quickly, because I caught it late) because my remarks supporting Richardson’s Iraq plan found no echo in the lake in past weeks.
In all respect, CD, above you tell us who you like with no reference to program. A program that produces fewer dead bodies and doomed futures than the ‘top tier’ is Richardson’s. I have not hear his plan discussed seriously by other candidates, the MWO, or much of anyone. I haven’t heard too much from Richardson out here in Oregon, either. I think the behemoth to our south totally shades us out. Richardson’s Spanish, which ain’t too bad should help him there.
Kucinich did scold Rummy, but that hearing got reduced to sound bites because of time limits. I ‘like’ Kucinich better than Richardson. But for some reason, and it is not a lack of fervor on the part of his supporters, Kucinich does not seem to impress voters outside of his district.
WillyLoman,
Not me. I won’t play with these people. Politics in this country is about money and celebrity.. ideas mean little.
When someone has a good idea or thought he is belittled because he is “not ready for prime time”. Fine… how about discussing his ideas then and maybe someone who IS ready might adopt it.
Seems to me that both Nadar and Denis are not beholden to special interests as all the other candidates seem to be except Edwards.
What for the democratic platform in 08 and puke.
Obama: the anti-Kucinich.
Ha funny.
pow wow @ 238
Mine was during the break-out session, pow wow. The people were not plants, in fact Jeralyn Merritt asked a question, as did the gal from the NEA sitting next to me. She was stronger in the break out than in the panel I thought.
Now that BushCo has a new FISA, for (is it 6 months?) does it mean there won’t be any implosions of large buildings for six months?
Or, if there is a ‘problem’, does that mean that the new FISA did nothing more to protect us, and that it only served to protect BushCo?
TSF is upstairs
BigMitch sez:
The not much difference between the two parties works to serve the Republicans. Their voters — wing-nuts, creationists, anti-choice activists, etc. — are highly motivated. Young voters should naturally be liberal, but the “not much difference” meme keeps them on the couch and uninterested in politics.
One caveat. Young people have been indoctrinated by right-wing teevee and their dumbed down and watered-down right wing education. 8 years of Dubya’s Comprehensive Assessment tests have superceded any teacher/curriculum-inspired critical thought. If they aren’t apathetic, many younguns are proud freedom lovin’ Christian Republicans.
Richarson has some contorted complicated insurance plan that sounds as wierd as Brownbacks tax plan. Kick him into singlepayerstan, and maybe he will have a shot.
Fortune Magazine had HRC on its cover under the headline “Who Business is Betting On”.
texBetsy in Chicago @ 6
I’m with you. My first comment after the forum was “why didn’t they address global warming at all?”
When I got into Gov. Richardson’s breakout session, that was the first thing he said, too. He was very surprised they didn’t address it and then he did. He’s been given the highest rating by the Sierra Club and another group. This is one of the reasons he’s at the top of my list — IF Gore doesn’t run.
Drive by comment only. I’m 2 days out of Irak and while there I managed to meet quite a few of the “Gorilla’s Guides” team. The ones who actually live in the blood soaked hellhole created with malice and forethought by the USA.
If some of you people want to delude yourselves that your country has a role go right ahead.
They hate your guts given what your country with malice and forethought has done to them democrat and republican alike that’s the only possible rational reaction.
Starting with 1991 when the USA deliberately targetted every single water treatment plant
IRAQ WATER TREATMMENT VULNERABILITIES (U) AS OF 18 JAN 91 KEY JUDGMENTS.
through sanctions when the USA deliberately with malice and with forethought refused to allow them rebuild those civilian water treatment plants to say nothing of refusing to let them import the drugs needed to treat the deformed children born every year.
Some of you didn’t like seeing a photograph I’m told.
13129 malformed children have been born in Iraq in the last five years. Their deformities have been caused by American Depleted Uranium munitions used in the American led 1991 “Desert Storm” war with Irak launched after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.
As a matter of standard operating procedure American soldiers during every single “surge” operation startingh with Fallujah which was the blueprint they’ve followed ever since, have prevented water, medicine, and food being brought into to civilians. Humanitarian organisations such as the Red Crescent are routinely targeted. Hospitals bombarded, ambulances strafed.
The “Guides” team started out as 118 people. Now we are 56. Of that 56 only thirty live in Irak. The rest live as refugees. There are 3 non-Iraki members, Dubhaltach, his wife Erdla, and me.
Of the 62 “Guides” members killed during the war that America continues to wage in Irak 8 have been killed in bombings by suicide bombers, 15 have been abducted and their mutilated bodies discovered in one or other of the usual dumping grounds.
All of the others have been killed by American soldiers.
No doubt that simple recitation of fact qualifies as “hate speech”
Anybody who thinks that a people whose soldiers with malice and forthought behave in the barbaric way your troops behave have any role in the country they’ve raped repeatedly isn’t worth listening to other than as an example of contemptible self delusion.
Your country long ago forfeited any ability to be part of the solution.
You are not force for good in Irak. You don’t even have the potential to be a force for good. You are a force for evil.
Mod note: last four lines deleted by mod for content.
Link for @ 262.
Isn’t it funny that at the last one of these blog debates, ol Hillary got booed and booed about some comment and that made all the headlines.
Now, what a lucky thing, as soon as Kucinich says something as “risky” as Democrats don’t see a difference, he gets booed and booed?
I guess Hillary hasn’t got to worry about it being all over the news for a cycle, does she?
Think that could have been Media Matters or other Pro-HRC sites waiting for any chance to pounce?
If I may address the why somethings never get asked. Could it be that sometimes its the pieces of policy that we get stuck on, the simple human stories get lost, so many people there and here are getting the shaft, it get overwhelming. I look at what is brought up here, and it crushes me sometimes, in a way we are one of many MASH hospitals trying to make the best use of our time and efforts.
*poof*
tdraicer @ 240
And US staying there supplying troops and weapons while demanding they sign over 80 plus percent of their oil reserves.. helps who?
I want to make sure folks understand that YKOS is not organized by Markos … I don’t happen to be a dailykos reader (leftover from my days reading billmon when you were in one community or the other … like White Sox v Cubs) but the decisions and planning of YKOS are done by the YKOS committee and he is very careful to stay out of it. And he is quite happy to have them change to name for next year – he never wanted it to be about him or run by him.
DWD … another luscious link. Thank you.
Kucinich – I like his positions but having heard too many long interviews with him last cycle when I lived in NH and we were primary inundated, I am not comfortable with him and rather uncertain about his ability to lead the fight.
Dodd has moved way up in my regard as I see him take strong stands and invite us into understand the process being played out in the Senate as he did on the supplemental. I’m impressed.
Richardson nails it for me on Iraq and I like the guy … have to consider him more.
But – and this is important to me – I don’t see a reason to endorse/support anyone at this stage. Let’s shake them out, find the good ideas, create a platform we support and then see which one supports our platform and is willing to fight.
Thanks for the nice welcome. Perhaps I will stop again some time.
Have a lovely evening.
“One of the things we decided was to cease wasting our time on people like you. We picked a number. 10,500 arbitary but what the hell. It’s a bit over 3 times the number of American soldiers killed in Irak.
We think that that sort of casualty figure is well on the way and gathering steam and that that is what it takes when dealing with a people like yours.
It wasn’t an easy decision. It was a very hard choice, but the price – we think the price is worth it.”
Mark, while the rest of the post is crystal clear, I don’t understand this point.
What is the significance of that chosen number?
-GSD
To he who is fresh out of “Irak”;
Granted, using sanctions to punish the poor and working classes of a nation in order to further a ecconomic or political agenda is absolutely wrong.
Pakistan was forced 4 days after 911 to stop sending millions of dollars worth of aid in the form of food and medicine to Afganistan. The Bush administration ordered the sanction. As a result hundreds of thousands of starving people suffered and many died. It had no real effect on the Taliban.
This kind of political terrorism is taking place in many countries right now. Iran for one.
it is wrong, and it is terrorism, by the definition of the United States. But as you can tell, we here at the blogs have very little we can do to stop it. In fact, this is pretty much the extent of our power. At least we are doing this much.
If you are really from Iraq, and you have seen these horrible conditions, all I can say, as an American who wishes to find a way to change these policies, is I am sorry and we are trying.
markfromireland – thank you for taking the time after what I’m sure was a long travel day to point out what is being done in each Iraqi city that is being surged one after the other. Fallujah being replicated over and over …
willloman – mfi is a good friend and is just out of Iraq, If you read his description of the Guides team you will note that he is not Iraqi but most members of the team are … and oh so many have died at our hands.
DWD – hope you come back often … good thoughts and wonderful links for tonight!
Thinking that mfi logged off, I think he was saying that he and his colleagues estimate we will have to triple ‘our’ casualties before we get out. That’s what I think he said. Am not trying to impute anything to him.
Siun; if you get a chance check out an article I wrote on “Globalization and Unregulated Overseas Wiretaps”. I would be interested in getting your feedback on it.
What does MarkfromIreland mean about the number 10,500? But he probably went to bed already. It’s little but I do feel for him and the rest of the victims.
willyloman – I’d like to read that and will. It’s been a long weekend so I will bookmark your site for tomorrow.
jc inOR … you read mfi correctly. The team at Guides feels that only then will we americans begin to notice the real costs of the occupation as the Iraqis do now.
A difficult concept for Americans to grasp is that their government has gone criminal on them. There are many who believe that at the very worst our leaders would not deliberately do harm to America. I harbor no such belief.
George H. W. Bush moves to a 100,000 acre ranch in Paraguay, Dick Cheney moves to an upscale penthouse in Dubai, and they toss G. W. Bush to the sharks since he has outlived his usefulness. The guy one wants to have beer with shtick has run it course, and that smirk of his gets under every-body’s skin.
A lady told me that from the moment she saw his weasel eyes she knew that he could not be trusted, and wouldn’t vote for him with my vote.???
I don’t know what he meant either Sharon. What does he mean “we picked” the number? Is he a contractor from Ireland working over there?
Sharon @ 278
He was so circumspect in what it meant that I can only think he’s decided two wrongs make a right.
This country has been bought and sold to the investor class. The only ones who really vote these days have LLC after their names and have no morality or common decency.
Republicans / democrats both meaningless. Just look at the elections in 2000, ‘02, ‘04, ‘06. hell, they aren’t even pretending to take exit polls anymore ever since they nearly messed up the 2000 fiasco.
purpleOnion @ 280
BigMitch @ 76
Military to protect the reconstruction and relief program I might believe. But she needs to say that, and she hasn’t. I don’t think she will. Right now, I think it has to be a complete pullout; let some other country, or the UN or some non-governmental group, run the relief and reconstruction, because we’ve put ourselves in a position where they’d just as soon shoot at us as accept help (in any form) from us.
markfromireland and the gorillasguides team – who are all Iraqis except for mfi, du and erdla – feel that only when US casualties reach a much higher number will americans actually notice the horror of this occupation enough to work to stop it. They are not saying “two wrongs make a right” they are… as I understand it … saying americans have been ignored the pain of the Iraqi people – and have ignored the cost of this brutal occupation for US soldiers as well and are not even acting to protect our own troops. They see conditions leading to certain inevitable results – these are experienced military men who have seen it before and are horrified they are seeing it again. They wonder how much it will take for us to care enough to make it stop.
I’d recommend reading both Guides (the link is under my name) and Main and Central which is a site run by a Viet vet who understands the real costs of war.
If you are like me – few of us have military experience or even know many military folks – we have a lot to learn.
Siun, Just curious as to a few questions I have asked in this thread that didn’t get addressed.
-GSD
Excuse me, but 12% of registered Democrats in Florida voted for Bush in 2000.
That is who cost Gore the election, not to mention the outright theft that went on.
GSD … sorry, I really am sorta half asleep tonight (ykos is rather exhausting in the fun bits!) … what did I miss? not intentional, just we were moving fast
Meaning over 200,000 votes.
Nader was right, and most of you know it deep in your hearts.
GSD @ 127
This was the one I had really wanted some input on.
-GSD
GSD – I think – and Imperial Life in the Emerald CIty n fact talks about that a lot iirc. The conscious decision to set religious groups against each other …
Many Iraqis feel – and I think there is some evidence but I am over my head on this – that the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samara was a deliberatively provocative act by US interests.
make of that what you will …
more in next msg:
sunny @ 289
And lets not mention Lieberman, shall we?
Thanks to pow wow @ 168 for the detailed history of the FISA shenanigans over the past weekend. For a follow-up, see this update today from Crooks & Liars,
Unfortunately, the links to the actual letter aren’t working when I checked.
Bob in HI
GSD – my pt deux: the more I learn …the more I think that the “strategy” was to sow chaos which was seen as making the situation more “controllable” (no unified resistance, etc) and I think that US interests would be quite happy to have permanent bases at those lovely pipeline sites with just enough Iraqis left in the country to work the machinery … exageration but I fear not by much.
That’s my latest theory. What do you think?
sunny @ 291
Sunny, I don’t disagree that the election was stolen, but how does that prove that Nader was right about anything. Please note that I am not saying he was wrong about anything, just asking what it proves? Isn’t their always a margin of cheating by partisan election officials who know how to finesse any number of details? Knowing that isn’t staying out or staying in a statement about which way you want the election to go? My personal opinion, unsolicited, and not particularly informed, as usual, is that Gore selected a wrong election strategy for Florida preferring retirees and reactionary Cuban exiles (the later whom he should have known were sewn up by Bush) to the poor segment of Florida society.
>And US staying there supplying troops and weapons while demanding they sign over 80 plus percent of their oil reserves.. helps who?
No one. But then perhaps if you read with more care you’d have noticed I said we should get out. For the record I opposed the Iraq debacle (and predicted its outcome) from the time W. made his Axis of Evil speech. I’m just tired of some supposedly in the Reality Based Community pretending that all that is standing in the way of peace in Iraq is the US army. There is no peace to be had in Iraq (and arguably no Iraq) because the different Iraqi factions don’t want peace. They want victory (or in the case of the Kurds, they want out). And that is true regardless of our presence.
As for Afghanistan (where the Taliban government, besides sheltering those who DID actually attack on us 9/11, was one of the worst regimes on earth), because Bush botched our occupation there to go invade Iraq doesn’t mean our going into that country was unjustified. Iraq and Afghanistan are two very different wars that have one thing in common-Bush lost them both.
Siun @ 286
With our leaders and our media? With Tony Snow pissing off the “arbitrary number” of 2,500? Those who will be upset by 10,500 are already upset. Those who send them there (for whatever reasons) without proper training or proper armor or any kind of plan will not be upset by fatalities figures. Period.
And I read mfi’s post 3 times, trying to decide what he was saying. He could have said it as you did, but he didn’t. In fact, he basically quoted Maryam (sp). And that worries me.
tdraicer … and your sources for what Iraqis want are ….?
Siun;
Without the insuing chaos that followed the invasion, our troops would have no reason to stay and no reason to be protecting the real reason we are there; contractors.
Siun @ 296
I still don’t quite know. In some ways the chaos theory seems to dovetail into the desire for a permanent presence, but it can also become so unwound that it makes a presence really hard to maintain.
But reading the latest missive from General O’Dierno it seems as though the whole narrative is changing from AQ and Sunnis to “Iranian backed militias”.
That of course helps to walk us right into some sort of a confrontation with Iran which seems to be the golden ring for many neo-cons but also seems to be a bridge too far for the most of the rest of the world.
Seeing how bad Bush and his ilk have been at doing anything, I am expecting an absolute cataclysm of events to engulf the region.
-GSD
>Nader was right, and most of you know it deep in your hearts.
Nader was an arrogant fool who undid every bit of good he’d ever accomplished previously in a monumental act of folly, and those who voted for him were (at best) deluded. And I know that in my brain, thanks. I’ll leave thinking with a blood pump to others.
willyloman … good point.
GSD … I think they thought they could control … in that arrogant hubris way that comes from seeing Iraqis as “sandn*gg*rs” rather than very competent fighters and a very sophisticated society.
Gordon, my reading differed. He was saying since we appear impotent to end the war, he is not going to bother to tell us to GTF out of Iraq.
tdraicer
you ever read anything about the Unical pipeline being built through Afganistan and down thru Pakistan, now that the Taliban is out of the way?
Ever wonder why an ISI head sent $100,000 to Atta weeks before the attack? Ever wonder why we upped our military aid package to Pakistan right after 911?
And do you find it curious at all that Osama slipped into Pakistan, where we can’t go get him, thru a hole in the defenses as Tora Bora?
Any of this sinking in? Or do you still think they got lucky to get past the most elaborate air defenses in the world because “They hate our Freedom”?
tdraicer – please stop being insulting to those who think differently … and in fact, please stop the Nader harangues …
Siun @ 304
Much like the Soviets and even the British before them underestimated the resolve of the Afgani people, Bush and Co underestimated the Iraqi resistance.
I only hope their hubris doesn’t go so far as to think iran would be a cake walk.
Has anyone been following Afghanistan?
The continuing reports of civilian deaths are horrible … and ignored here.
bonkers @ 154
Blogs as a whole are currently essentially stagnant in growth. We need to figure out how to fix that. All ears if people have ideas.
willyloman @ 306
Actually I think they got past the air defense system because everyone believed it was so great, no one would ever try (except possibly China or maybe a some Russian rogue).
Agree with the other stuff, but please don’t think that the world’s most expensive military is necessarily the world’s most vigilant.
Siun, Afghanistan is really ignored all over. But the latest appears that Karzai is losing whatever grip he had been given.
Opium production is sky high and the Afghani’s are adopting some of the more effective Iraqi methods.
In response NATO has been bombing and killing more Afhganis and the increased civilian toll, after what, 6 years of NATO occupation doesn’t appear to be winning over more converts to the NATO cause.
Like all else, the fruit of the poisonous Bush tree, it is failing.
-GSD
>tdraicer … and your sources for what Iraqis want are ….?
I enjoy a joke as much as anyone but you need a punchline. Iraq is a country formed from conflicting ethnic/religious tribes to fit the demands of the British Empire, held together ever since by force. After the Gulf War we essentially created a protected Kurdish state which has seen the toppling of Saddam as a chance to expand its territory (much to the worry of our NATO ally Turkey).
By toppling Saddam we also allowed the Shia (for whom “democracy” means “our turn now because we are the majority”) to turn the tables on the Sunni and the result has been an ongoing civil war in which (not surprisingly) none of the factions are on the side of the US, though some have counted on the US being on their side.
The evidence is all around you, starting with the daily body count: by far the majority of Iraqi dead (if not Irish visitors) have been killed by other Iraqis, over the oldest political question of all-who rules. The idea that once we leave they’ll all agree to work out the answer to that question peacefully is ludicrous.
We should leave anyway (meeting our moral responsbility under the Pottery Barn Doctrine by offering refuge to any Iraqis who want it, something I don’t see enough of us pushing for) but the fighting in Iraq will go on until they have a Shia theocracy friendlier to Iran than the US (again, good work W.), another Saddam, or the country simply fractures (possibly drawing in its neighbors into a wider war). What we aren’t going to have is an end to tyranny or bloodshed or death in Iraq just because we’ve stopped shooting.
Siun, interestingly enough the US is claiming to have killed who they say is the AQ member responsible for the bombing of the Golden Dome. Though I don’t recall them reporting to know who it was at the time.
-GSD
thots in middle of a thunderstorm:
The world is horribly complicated, and filled with brutal, cruel, unsolvable problems.
We currently have an executive branch of government which, for whatever reason(s), has overturned major parts of our system of governance and grievously damaged the basic system of trust and faith that used to help it function, has with lies and deceit, started a preemptive war killing and maiming thousands upon thousands of people, as well as fomenting policies leading to more strife, mistrust, and hate than perhaps ever existed before throughout the world, as well as unprecented hate and mistrust of us and our country.
These people continue their hateful, greedy, reckless, hurtful policies with seemingly wanton abandon. Similar lack of care, planning, or any semblance of personal responsibility, or even simple humanity, seem to drive their environmental, social, fiscal or any other policies. They appear utterly devoid of any workable plan for the future.
The horror of this realization concerning our so-called leaders, I think, surely is causing a cascading series of disasterous consequences, not just here in the USA but around the world. There WILL be no future for our children or anyone else’s, if these policies continue, and otherwise diligent, caring, forward-thinking people are utterly stymied when trying to right the wrongs, to cope with the impending horror these leaders have wrought.
Maybe, just maybe, our personal deep concerns about the future are indeed also felt by other people, yes, including politicians, outside the executive branch of our present government.
Maybe these horrible current events, and even more dreadful things feared in the future, have frozen in their tracks, otherwise decent people in the legislature and courts, because these people simply have no idea how to get the world beyond the seemingly insurmountable problems caused by our very own executive branch of government – so called.
So, otherwise decent people, potentially effective politicians, diddle and twaddle away their hours and their days with pandering, petty bickering, and make-work, because it helps keep them from totally panicking over what the future holds and simply standing in the middle of the Capitol Rotunda and giving a primal scream.
We need to keep going, folks.
We need to keep helping any way we can.
We cannot afford to stop what we are doing.
We MUST NOT stop.
tdraicer … quite seriously, I am asking where you learned your Iraqi history. I’d be interested to know your sources.
GSD – amazing how cooperative these AQ guys are!
They are responsible for everything (unless it’s a week when the Iranians are … or when they are and the Iranians are working together or …)
and they die at really convenient times PR wise.
>Or do you still think they got lucky to get past the most elaborate air defenses in the world because “They hate our Freedom”?
As when a teenage German landed in Red Square?
Of course “hating our freedom” wasn’t the reason bin Laden declared war on the US and his followers attacked us on 9/11. Though AQ and the Taliban are undoubtedly disgusted by it, something they have in common with Christian religious fundamentalists here.
>tdraicer – please stop being insulting to those who think differently …
I’m never insulting to those who THINK, diffently or otherwise. Those who offer their ignorance, or self-righteous feelings in place of thoughts otoh…
>and in fact, please stop the Nader harangues
Yes, because there is no danger of his running again and helping to cause yet another political catastrophe. (Actually, at this point I agree Nader is probably irrelevant. Those who hadn’t wised up by 2004, never will.)
Still, where I usually post I’m generally attacked as a Red and Islamist, so I suppose I should consider this a refreshing change of pace.
And in my final comment on this thread, I’ll just say that moral outrage about war is both easy and ineffective. Nations have armies because their isn’t a world police, and no nation has ever avoided a war because it was immoral. But every now and then they can be talked out of them because they are foolish. So it is with Iraq. We aren’t going to leave Iraq because we are in the wrong, but because we can’t win. The same reason we left Vietnam. Which is the same reason any nation has ended any war on terms it didn’t want. (Well, those that survived losing.)
tdraicer @ 313
So?
What’s true is that the US troops make a peace impossible as long as they are there. Once they are gone it becomes possible. The route may well be (probably will be) through more war, but it does become possible. It’s not possible now.
>tdraicer … quite seriously, I am asking where you learned your Iraqi history. I’d be interested to know your sources.
In that case, you could do worse than start with Lord Kinross on the Ottoman Empire, Fromkin’s A Peace to End All Peace, Churchill’s Folly (I forget the author), or the last 7 years of The New York Review of Books.
The NORAD intercept rate in 2000 was a perfect 100% in the given time to intercept an off course aircraft. Some 67 missions.
In July of 2001 Bush signed an order making all inteception commands have to go through Cheney, Bush, or Rumsfeld before a launch could take place.
Mineta testified before congress that someone was comming into the “bunker” and informing Cheney when the plane was 50 miles out then 40 miles out…
when he got to 10 miles out he asked it the order still stood. Cheney snapped at him and told him of course it still stood.
Now if that was an order to shoot down an threat, why would he ask if it still stood? wouldn’t he want it shot down (the guy asking Cheney).
The “inept” mythology doesn’t hold water. They changed the story with regard to the timeline 3 times.
This defense system is the best in the world, and no, no idiot can just fly a plane into the pentagon whenever he wants.
If it was ineptitude, then why don’t you ask yourself why Cheney (of all people) would reward them with promotions after the failure to protect the country.
Not one failure, but 4. They batted 0. Sorry. The Red Square story don’t cut it.
>So?
So we ought to be clear that our leaving and ending the killing are not the same event, or we will be unhappily surprised.
>What’s true is that the US troops make a peace impossible as long as they are there.
True-but only in the sense that we prevent the Iraqi factions from using the level of violence they will be free to use after we go.
>Once they are gone it becomes possible.
The “peace” that is going to come is going to be the peace of the grave or (if they are lucky) tyranny for the losers. The Sunnis in particular are in an “Enjoy the war, the peace will be terrible” situation. Again I agree there is nothing we in the West can do about that-except let in those Iraqis who want to escape. As I said, I’ve always been against our intervention in Iraq. We need to get out asap. But the Iraqi civil war will go on without us.
Loo Hoo; has John Edwards gotten into the “Blame the Iraqi parliament” nonsense?
Clinton sure said it, but I haven’t heard that from Edwards. Has he said that in any of the dabates, or in a campaign speech?
Same thing for Richardson. I’d be surprised if he popped off with that, too.
If Edwards has done that, put it up and let’s bang on HIM a while. He aint sacred.
If they all start parroting this bushCo shitspeak, fuck’m…let’s see what Wes Clarke has to say for himself.
GSD; regarding those talking points; at this point with Clinton, I can’t tell if they’re feeding them to her, or if she’s feeding them to them. :o)
It’s Busch and Busch-Lite, near as I can tell.
traicer … I’m so glad you have sorted out that we are such naifs and hope you have a more enjoyable time at “the place where you usually post” – it does sound like they are more appreciative of your skills.
though I must say I particularly enjoyed the “last seven years of the NY Review of Books” line …
tdraicer @ 322
Nothing I haven’t written in the past. There are 3 possible likely endstates:
1) Lebanon style mess (as in the years of the lebanese civil war)
2) one side wins. Peace of a sort occurs.
3) Some sort of negotiated settlement probably after some serious fighting.
2 of the 3 are better than what’s going on now. Sure, 2 sucks, but it’s what they had before the US invaded and the vast majority of Iraqis will tell you it was preferable to the current situation.
There are no good solutions anymore. But what is sure is that as long as the US is there, there is no possibility of any answer. And right now an answer is needed. The status quo trendline does not lead anywhere good, and it can’t be changed with US troops in the picture.
Are we having fun yet? *s*
Any one of the democratic candidates is far better than having another republican sock puppet to cope with. The republicans have talked themselves into an ideological abyss that is essentially anti-American.
They can’t go any further to the right without changing America’s name to the Nationalist Soc*al*st States.
In light of the republicans’ inadequacies and domestic enemy status the democratic candidates seem like the light on the horizon of hope that America is not lost to recalcitrant, self-serving whores.
(MOD NOTE: *Edited to allow through filter)
ah Eureka … quite a good evening!
and Ian – it is always wonderful to have you join in.
The Iraq War is EVERY-BODY’S fault except the republicans. They had the right ideas all along, but they were stifled by critics who worked undercover for Al Qaeda, and other radical Muslim groups, who for no reason what-so-ever began contributing to the democratic candidates’ campaigns, that wanted to expand their candidates horizons by educating them in commanding NORAD, engineering basics of skyscrapers, levee, and bridge construction, with intoxicated astronauts giving the bird’s eye view of their projects for later demolition with the push of a button.
The Republican Party in order to undermine the principles of a democratic republic had Iranian/Contra private contractors practiced in torture and assassination, invade Waukesha, Wisconsin with I.E.D.s strapped over their life preservers and water logged AK-46s, almost an AK. Here the contractors attacked the hotbed of liberal idealism, and crushed all those useless unarmed pacifists, (four of them,) gathered at the Presbyterian hayride and country picnic. Abu Gonzales stepped into the massacre and declared all republicans innocent, and pardoned them before they were charged. Later for safety’s sake they would go back and rewrite the law so that what they did that was illegal was no longer illegal.
Cheney was asked if Bush was his sock puppet to which Cheney responded, “Do I look like a ventriloquist.” No you look like a sinister old man with an erection for people. All those people who criticized him for being from Wyoming because it does not support a major league football team or basketball team were the people he swore would be kissing his behind when he got some power under his belt. When a friend disagreed with Cheney on policy, Cheney shot the friend in the face and chest to remind him that metal fragments near the heart are the cause of heart attacks as opposed to having been wounded by gunshot.
Cheney is above everyone just ask him. When god wants something done here on earth he calls Cheney. “Cheney, the lord declares, how many Muslims does it take to fill a ditch one-hundred feet long, eighteen feet wide , and ten feet deep?” Cheney responds, “Almost all of them lord, once they’ve been reduced to ash and compressed.” He added that he really couldn’t think of any reason why all of the Iraqi people had to die, but it came to him in a cashiers check written by Haliburton through a subsidiary in Dubai.
thanks siun, i totally trust your perceptions. i’m w/you on richardson.
frankly, i just think i am moving to far to the left to relate to the party anymore…it’s not what they say, it is what they do. and i feel very discouraged.
The disconnect between what was happening in Congress and what was happening at YKOS was stunning.
Hi Siun:
Just getting here this morning. I wasn’t at YearlyKos, but I share your feelings of disconnects – and on more levels than just the one you described. I perceive that the somewhat amorphous progressive blogosphere isn’t all that different from any other web-based network -progressive or otherwise. In fact, at my own little progressive healthcare blog, the great majority of my traffic comes from rabid hate-filled right wingers. Progressives rarely visit, comment and lend any sense to community. So I visit other group blogs and try to participate. But healthcare rarely is discusses in any comprehensive way. I don’t think the progressive community is overly concerned about or cognizant of the complexities of health policy and issues.
And that’s just one meta-issue. From what I read, I believe that this pervades all domestic issues and policy.
I even created a group blog called Progressive Policy which is set up and waiting for progressives to take on issues and policy and blog. So far, not a single interested person, let alone a community.
So, it appears to me that the general makeup of the progressive blogosphere is that of a few authors who write prolifically – and the few gems who write compellingly, insightfully and intelligently (many right here on this blog), and a greater number of readers who comment – and often engage in commenting as sport, and then the largest mass of readers who lurk and who do not engage in the dialog.
But I don’t perceive any effort to engage in organization and in activities which will coalesce the community, articulate a mission, vision and values, and then create an agenda for change.
I really don’t perceive much interest in self-education and activism around policy, either. Universal healthcare? Where’s the progressive community? Withdrawal from Iraq?
Renewable energy? Predatory lending? Teacher control over curriculum?
The progressive blogosphere just doesn’t have much of an influential presence there.
What are the next steps to get it there?
sadly, as usual, i missed siun’s excellent post and discussion. will leave a few comments here, on the off chance they are seen.
siun – i watched some of the ykos webcasting. other than howard dean’s talk, i found it quite disheartening. maybe that sense of disconnect was heighted for me becuase as i was watching the dem presidential candidates feted in chicago, i was also watching c-span to see the dem leadership in congress fuck us over while trying to make it look like they were fighting for us. it really was the last straw, as i have watched the dem leadership in congress fuck up again and again with nary a peep from the blogosphere (thanks again for your post on s.amdt.2073).
pow wow – thanks for your good work to figure out and write up the fisa betrayal. will look for you in the threads tomorrow.
mfi – good to see your comment here. even if to bring us such tragic news. the loss of so many friends and collegues… i have no words. i’m so sorry.
What Caoimhin Laochdha said.
Twain @ 73
At least they could have gotten Jon Stewart ;-)
Siun,I emailed you,about a different topic,kinda.
I just wanted to post my support of this post,thanks for sharing your overview of YKos. I was getting the same impressions,but I wasn’t there,so I didn’t feel right saying much about it.
don’t be surprised and disappointed, Siun, it was YearlyKos, run by the people at DailyKos, a shell company of the Democratic Party, who no doubt had a great deal of influence on the messaging. Hence, no tough questions of Clintons faux withdrawal plans, etc.
the Kosniks are sheepdogs for Progressives and others of the non-aligned Left, barking and nipping to get us to the pen in even numbered years.
Sheepdogs don’t want dialog with the sheep, but they are canny enough to do whatever it takes to keep the herd moving the right way.
Kos hates Kuchinich.
I don’t need to know anything more about DailyKos.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 36
The plan which appeals to me is to continue to use the Democratic Party label and just go after congressional seats where we can swap out a “blue dog” or Republican for a True Blue Democrat.
I can’t see starting a new party as being easier, cheaper or quicker than taking the Dem party bit by bit.
CTuttle @ 56
Comey seemed to indicate he didn’t want it, but Iglesias might be good. Repubs could vote for him and Dems wouldn’t object, I don’t think.
BigMitch @ 59
As for me, I refuse to speak of preemptive use of tactical nukes with regard to this, er on civilians…oh, let’s drop it.
Richmond @ 149
Well, you’ve arrived at a rather critical question we need to ask all the candidates (except Richardson, who has said “out”): In your plan to leave Iraq are there stages where would leave troops and if so is it to continue the Bush war plan to conclusion or is it just part of a staged withdrawal?
That oughta sort ‘em out a bit.
But, of course, after that there would need to be a bit more sifting through some details.
perris @ 176
Richmond @ 185
What kinds of families are losing homes? Do they have savings? Are they affluent second homes or primary residences?
What kind of family assistance will those people need? What should government do to help?
I think we can feel assured Republicans will look on and ignore them.
What should Dems do?