Peter was the kindest man I ever met. I moved into his old house one winter in the early nineties. Rent was $235/month, there was a shared kitchen and showers and 7 tenants. On the ground floor lived the landlord – Peter, and his Japanese wife.
I lived there three years. They were thin, cold years for me. Sometimes I was employed – as a bike courier; a dispatcher, a mover; a baker; a painter, or anything else I could find. Other times I scrabbled from day job to day job, helping anyone who needed it for cash on the barrelhead. There were some grim months on welfare; some trips to the food bank, even a few meals at the soup kitchen. I was rousted a couple times by rent-a-cops as “undesirable” (read: looking like a bum.)
My clothes were threadbare, and I would look in the mirror and I could already see myself at fifty, living the same hand to mouth, job-to-job life.
Through it all two people helped me; two people stuck by me and never made me feel worthless. One of them was Peter. Peter let me work a lot of my rent off with jobs around the house. I painted this or that, under careful suprvision I did plumbing work; I shoveled snow; and I laid bricks. Peter taught me how to learn – he’d show me how to do something, tell me to “do it right, and take your time, because if you do it fast first you’ll never ever do it right.” And those months when I was late on rent; those months when I was mortified to be on welfare – he cut me slack and he never made me feel small.
Peter was old. He had been born in Germany. And he had fought for Hitler.
He liked to talk about his life; and quite a life it had been. He’d been a spy for the CIA after the fall, till the day his handler cut him loose when he was fleeing from what would become East Germany pursued by Soviet troops. “Not willing to risk an incident” said his handler. “Not willing to keep spying for you,” said Peter. He had been a stage manager; had been Volkswagen’s chief North American tester; had been a translator and had broken codes, among many many other things.
Peter said, and I believed, that his family had been opposed to the Nazis. His father was a VP in Siemens and when Peter was caught, at a youth camp, listening to Allied broadcasts, he was able to save his son and have him assigned as an aide to a prison camp (no, not that type of prison camp) commandant. While there Peter got himself in more trouble and wound up in the camp jail for a couple of days. The cells in that camp faced each other, with a row of bars in between. The prisoner across from him was gypsy man and they spent two days playing cards and talking. At the end of it, the prisoner said, “today I will be hung as a partisan. You seem like a good man so I want to ask you if after the war you will go tell my people.”
Peter agreed, and the gypsy continued. “They think I am a partisan leader – someone other than I am. I haven’t told them I’m wrong. What I want you to do, after the war, is go tell my people that I died for this man.”
As the war ground on, the Germans began to run into severe manpower shortages. Young teenagers Peter’s age were drafted and sent into occupation duties, where they served alongside older veterans. Peter was drafted and sent to France.
He said there was very little real resistance in the district he was in (or, as far as he could tell, most of France) – just one sniper they chased in desultory fashion and never caught – the chasing mostly involving staying absolutely silent and still at night while waiting for a muzzle flash to aim at.
One day he went through a French hospital town. Because it was used to care for injured soldiers it had never been bombed. While there he and a comrade saw Allied bombers overhead. The French pointed up and said “look, our planes!” Peter screamed at them to get into the bomb shelters, but most of them didn’t. After all, they were their planes. Peter and his friend got in – then the bombs started falling. A lot of the French who had wondered at their planes didn’t survive that day.
He also went through Dresden the day after the bombing. But he never described what he saw there to me.
I asked Peter why he left Germany and emigrated to Canada. His reply was “everyone pretended they didn’t know what had been going on. We all knew. I couldn’t live there anymore.”
I lived with Peter for 3 years and when I left he told me two things – one was a piece of advice on living life “never do the same job for more than 5 years, Ian, you won’t be happy if you do.” (He was right, as I found out the hard way. Wisdom, they say, is learning from other people’s mistakes. I’ve never been wise).
The second thing he said was “my family has a custom where ever year we pick out someone to help and do so for the entire year, and sometimes longer. We know we do harm all the time. It’s not balance. But we hope it makes up.”
But it wasn’t just one person. I never saw Peter act meanly, or unkindly. I never saw him treat anyone but with dignity. I never saw anyone who needed a kindness Peter could give who didn’t get it.
That man, who fought for Hitler, might have been the best man I’ve ever met.
I usually am in comments for my posts, but I’ll be travelling when this goes live, alas. I will check in later to respond.




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great post Ian
What an inspiring story. Some folks are more like angels. I’m sure his life-lessons have not been lost on you.
A nice dose of inspiration, thanks.
A beautiful story well told. Thank you.
Fantastic story. So timely for us to contemplate while fascists attempt to (or have already?) take over America.
What an extraordinary story and much needed on a day like today.
I wonder if there are any “Peter’s” in the Bush administration?
Ian it was an honor to meet you that first day of kos.
Clusterfuck and the Pickle were up to the scene of the bridge collapse to comfort people- not sure who he comforted- or how they felt about it. Clusterfuck and the Pickle seem to do their comforting act in private.
Lucky for all the people of Minnesota that none of them hurt as much as Clusterfuck and the Pickle do- especially the Pickle.
*
eCAHNomics @ 6
eCAHN –Interesting to know about your gender. The two-years-ahead-of-Hillary, and your take on her, interests me too. What about your classmates’ take?
Clusterfuck and the Pickle say:
“See we came up in only three days ta comfort you- and we promise we’ll help ya ta rebuild- JUST LIKE WE DID IN NOLA.
Our armed forces are full of men like Peter. As the recent trials at Camp Pendelton showed the reverse, a minority (I believe), is true as well. It doesn’t matter who is waving the baton; when duty and law join in unsactioned purpose, morality and ethics suffer almost as much as those who are caught in the grist.
Wow, I never post, but that story was so inspirational!
Thanks for that.
My how our country would be different if our congresscritters lived their lives like Peter.
Patty Morlan @ 7
Surely you jest. The Bush Admin folks are in it for the power. Peter got caught up in it as a victim, literally to preserve his life.
Patty Morlan @ 7
No but you can bet there are plenty of Nazi wannabees.
Nice story. I wonder how many Americans will leave the US after BushCO is totally exposed?
My lady likes this story. That’s make or break here. ;0)
“me an the Pickle here are might sad that yer bridge here fell down on toppa some ofya– we’d like ta comfort ya- the comforting center has been set up down at the Hilton. Tough shit about the damn bridge eh?”
Dave in PA @ 14
It was inspirational and depressing at the same time. Sad that we even have to think along these lines.
Dave in PA @ 14
Drop by often. Glad to have you.
Jonathan @ 11
I can’t give you a read on that. I disliked Wellesley so much, I have nothing to do with it anymore. Maybe I’ll go muck about on the website & see what I can find.
Somebody needs to ask Hillary if Madeline Albright is going to be her SecState, and, if so, whether Ms. Albright (also Wellesley) still thinks that it was worth killing all those Iraqi children with the sanctions.
Dave in PA @ 14
Tell your friends, spread the word.
eCAHNomics @ 22
I’m interested, really interested, why your attitude toward Wellesley. (I’ve known one Wellesley grad I really liked, for both mind and body.)
We have soldiers in our family who all have served more than once in Iraq. These soldiers do not approve of this president, and don’t want to go back to Iraq. They do what they must. And we love them. And we want them home for good. And not in a body bag or a box.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
Hey, OKK. Why do they serve?
I really enjoyed this, Ian. Good people can never sing their own song. You have repaid them well.
Thank you!!!
My parents both lived through 5 years of
German “occupation” during WWII in Norway.
My mother told my father, who worked in the Norwegian Defense Department, that the Germans were going to invade Norway, because it was a rumor from her mother who was in Sweden. My Dad, the ultimate adherent to protocol, dismissed her “gut” feeling. Shortly thereafter, the Nazis invaded. My Dad was the last person in the Norwegian government left on the physical premises….shredding the defense plans…my mother fled to the mountains with my brothers.
Other people, thought that they would never be invaded….even my dad….
Bad things happen. Administrations overreach….Leaders seize power.
The people who knocked down this bridge will hear from all of us soon.
-Chimpy and Pickles
What can we learn from this story? (1) Peter says, ‘everyone knew’ what was going on. When and if we step back from the precipice of fascism here, who will say, “I had no idea” and who will say, “everyone knew.” My dad was part of the occupation in Germany and he told me that people would always tell him, “they had no idea.” We would say “bullshit.”
(2) Good men, like Peter, can be forced by circumstances to work for fascists. How many G.I.s are in that siuation right now, in Iraq and elsewhere?
(3) How many good men and women will have the same sense of disgust and leave America because of the ethical abyss we are steadily approaching? Repeat after me: “O, Canada!”
(4) There are “righteous Gentiles” and good people in the midst of Fascist regimes. But they are exceptional.
Jonathan @ 26
It’s their job and they gave their word. Most of them were in the service long before 2000.
“I can hear this bridge- soon the whole world will hear this bridge”
“Spending our nation’s wealth over there, so we don’t have to spend it here.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 31
Thanks.
My father was in the infantry in Normandy. He told us that he saw a lot of dead men. American and German. And these guys were just men to him. Dead men.
“I declare this bridge as a monument to the american spirit. We republicans believe in spending our money wisely- and never spending a penny until NECESSARY–as you can see- americans got the LAST bit of use possible out of this bridge- Pickles and I congratulate the governor of the great state of (where the hell are we?)==Oh yeah- Minnesota”
Arbeit macht frei.
Great story.
BigMitch @ 33
Brother, can you spare a dime?
John LeCarre was ringing alarm bells in 2003 along with a few others.
(Snip)
America has entered one of its periods of historical madness, but this is the worst I can remember: worse than McCarthyism, worse than the Bay of Pigs and in the long term potentially more disastrous than the Vietnam War.
(Snip)
Now 88 per cent of Americans want the war, we are told. The US defence budget has been raised by another $60 billion to around $360 billion. A splendid new generation of nuclear weapons is in the pipeline, so we can all breathe easy. Quite what war 88 per cent of Americans think they are supporting is a lot less clear. A war for how long, please? At what cost in American lives? At what cost to the American taxpayer’s pocket? At what cost — because most of those 88 per cent are thoroughly decent and humane people — in Iraqi lives?
We can’t say we weren’t warned.
-GSD
“Pickles an Me came up just ta comfort ya—are those teevee cameras on yet?”
BigMitch @ 33
Think of it this way: American corporations will grow, so there will be more profit, and it will trickle down.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
That is the truth.
Just for the record, I am not a pacifist. War is hell, and to be avoided whenever possible, to be engaged in only when forced to, and only as a last resort. But warring against the Nazis — I got no problem with that.
Jonathan @ 34
;0)
Jonathan
1. Correction: I was 3 years ahead of Hillary, not 2. Hers was Class of ‘69. Don’t know why Rs haven’t made hay about that. Maybe that’s too silly for even them, but it would be a first.
2. Nothing on Wellesley website about Hillary except the usual famous-graduates stuff. She got an award earlier this year.
3. I sent an email to the alum office, asking if there’d been any polls about whether current students or alums intended to vote for her. I suspect not, as there would only be downside for the school to conduct such a poll. (Imagine if the results said no, though most likely the opposite would be the case.)
4. WRT why I didn’t like it, it was too homogeneous & goal driven for me. It was about the same size as my very diverse high school, which I loved, but all white upper middle class women who were workaholic grade grubbers. I was a real fish out of water. I’ve made several good faith efforts to reconnect over the years, thinking I’ve now grown up, but it just doesn’t work for me.
5. Enough about me. How about you. I gather you’ve done some spooking?
Jonathan @ 41
Of course, it will trickled down. These people have been inept at holding on to wealth for more than a few dozen generations.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
My father saw a lot of German teenagers and elderly protecting the Fatherland when American troops entered Germany. This last line of defense were there for the glory of one man.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
I hope your loved ones return safely.
Wes @ 48
… and soon.
GSD @ 39
That’s exactly how I’ve been feeling, and thinking I’m the only one who thinks it’s orders of magnitude worse than anything in living memory, and wondering how far down it will go, and every day it gets worse, with brief reprieve after 06 election.
“We’re here ta comfort ya- hell I know it looks bad- but think of it this way- yer bridge is in a lot better shape than my war”.
eCAHNomics @ 45
Thanks, and thanks for asking. I’m a highly specialized tax lawyer. I served in Viet Nam as an ROTC officer, MI branch. Did some very interesting stuff. But for the past 31 years, have just been a specialized tax lawyer.
“No one could ever have thought that a hundred year old bridge like this would ever fall down.”
Thanks, Ian.
A long time ago I had a German landlord, and when I told him I was trying to get a job on the C&NW railroad, he said that he had worked on a railroad and hated it. And then he added, “It was forced labor for the Russians.”
And now I’m reading stories about people being kidnapped, essentially enslaved, to work on the US Embassy in Baghdad. At least some of the people enslaved by the Russians eventually got freed. And I wonder: Will any of the people enslaved by the embassy contractors in Baghdad ever be freed?
My grandfather was among the first Americans flown into Hiroshima and Nagasaki, from Alaska, iirc… He had a nervous breakdown.. lost touch with his entire family for about twenty years.
from bernhard, a german, about a day in germany’s history:
rwcole @ 51
That bridge is in better shape than almost anything to do with Bush–including his mental landscape.
Eureka Springs @ 55
(((((Eureka Springs)))))
Eureka Springs @ 55 –
wow. was he able to find his family again?
Cspan replaying comments by Bush in Minn.. The man is a complete moron!!! but by god wouldn’t you want to have a beer with him? The pundits sure would.
Why would anyone wanna have a beer with clusterfuck? Only a person who hangs around car wrecks would get a kick out of such a thing.
montag! hope you are well. been thinking about you.
My father saw a lot of German teenagers and elderly protecting the Fatherland when American troops entered Germany. This last line of defense were there for the glory of one man.
My old man was on a High Speed Transport,APD 17. He was in about 30 “D-Days” in the Pacific. He had a tremendous respect for the Japanese. His brother, who stayed at Navy Pier the entire war, hated “Jap’s. Go figure? As for me, I liked the few Vietnamese I had contact was but I sure as hell respected Mr Charles.
rwcole @ 61
Must explain the NASCAR dads…. :)
An American G.I. was just sentenced to 114 years in prison for rape of a young girl in Iraq and murdering her family.
Had aunt, who lived the ’30s in Germany.
She said, just before she died last year, that things last year seemed the same as Germany in the early 30’s. She said she was amazed at the similarity. She said she could not believe another Hitler could arise like Bush.
I’ve never been able to bring myself to visit Germany, even though my mother’s side of the family comes from that country.
In my grandfather’s family two of the children emigrated to America, two stayed in Germany, in Dresden.
Felt pretty squiggy about that until my father told me that at least some in my family had actually been the proverbial “good German.”
A great-aunt’s husband had been an U-Boat captain during World War I; but he loathed the Nazis and refused to return to the German navy during the second World War.
It wasn’t until a year after he’d been jailed for his resistance, that he again reinlisted. And, like 50% of those who served in the U-boats in that war, he was killed.
And the aunt’s house was destoyed in the firebombing of Dresden.
I am pretty sure that this is Chimpy’s beverage of choice.
-GSD
I’ve never been to Dresden, but have visited Dusseldorf. You can look down a street and see what the bombing did. The surviving buildings are recognizably old, the new ones are planer, built to the same dimensions to fill in space. I have photos of my in-laws’ house as it was originally built in 1928, as a pile of rubble after WWII, and as it is currently rebuilt.
The American people have never come to grips with the death & destruction they caused in WWII. I had never thought about the civilian bombing myself, until I saw it. I asked about it at a dinner party in Dusseldorf, and after an embarrassed silence, one of the Germans said that there was no other way, that’s what the Americans had to do to win the war. That is of course what anyone here would say, and she seemed sincere, but I think that lets us off too easily.
Great Post, Ian! When I was stationed in Germany, I made it a point to see Dachau, the stench of death still lingers! It’s a shame that we never learn from our past mistakes! Black Sites, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, ad nauseum!!! 8-(
Bush discovered after Katrina that ya never get a second chance to make a first impression. Here he is at the bridge over troubled waters:
“”I bring prayers from the American people to those who have suffered loss of life as a result of the collapse of the 35W bridge in the Twin Cities. I bring prayers to those who wonder whether they’ll ever see a loved one again,” Bush said on his visit.
“I have met with the chief of police and the sheriff and rescue workers — people who represent men and women working as hard as they possibly can to save life and to find life — to go under these murky waters to find the facts. And it’s going to take awhile.”
Shortly after Bush left the site, a diver bobbed in the water and communicated with an attending boat with hand signals.
“I have been impressed not only by their determination but by their compassion,” the president said. Watch Bush tour the disaster site »
“We want to get this bridge rebuilt as quick as possible. We understand that this is a main artery,” Bush said. “People depend on this bridge, on this highway.”
eCAHNomics @ 69
Caused?
Valley Girl @ 62
Thanks for the thought. Working on some writing. And, was out of town for daughter’s wedding, now into a month and a half of jury duty (another 1-1/2 months to go). Things like that.
rwcole @ 61
There’s a lot of shit I don’t know, or understand. Like quantum mechanics, molecular biology, why do the good suffer, and where does life come from. But you sure hit on the biggest mystery I can imagine.
Bluetoe @ 60
’nuff said about both.
selise @ 59
For short visits.. I met him a couple of times over the years. One visit while I was traveling with a Japaneese business partner. It was a very short visit.
GSD @ 68
LOL!!! I’ll take a pitcher of ice-cold Neocon flavored…!!!
Bluetoe @ 60
… and pretzels?
And Cheney, Rove and Bush remain free to terrorize the Middle East.
Very moving post, Ian.
Who is Pickles, and did W give him that name?
judybrowni @ 67
My in-laws are German Jews who got out after Krystallnacht. My late husband could never face going back, but his sister finally did, and she felt right at home. “Everyone there is just like me.” I’ve been there twice with her to visit (with my son) all the family places. Pretty amazing woman.
montag @ 73
montag, as you know, you have always been stellar in answering my questions at FDL. I hope the writing is going well. Jury duty?! If you want, please say more.
raven @ 72
I don’t understand what you’re questioning.
rwcole @ 71
That would be “quickly” you dumb fucking dumbfuck.
Damn, the House pages better start wheeling in the cots! It looks to be an all-niter, tonite, get your hot fresh popcorn here, folks!!! *g*
I had a boss once whose parents were German, strong ties. But he grew up in Argentina.
I never asked him about it, I just knew.
And as for the boss, a very nice man, good and kind.
CTuttle @ 85
Tell more, please
eCAHNomics @ 83
I think that Raven is thinking along the lines that I’m thinking.
The German people went along with Hitler’s total war and pretty much got the karma-blowback in the form or relentless allied air assaults.
Yep, there were plenty of people that needlessly died, but they weren’t going to give up until they were beaten into the ground.
And I’m no fan of war.
-GSD
My wife is german. Germans are more like americans than anyone else in the world- except for Australians…
eCAHNomics @ 83
Well, the notion that we “caused” the destruction of Germany, as you point out when you say “That is of course what anyone here would say”. So the Germans say it, almost anyone here would say it but, what, we shouldn’t have done it? Sorry, I disagree.
Ian, and sorry for going off topic before saying “thank you” for a truly memorable post.
More so than Canadians, rwcole?
rwcole @ 89
Boy (figure of speech), are you right.
Mitch– Yeah- more than canadians- they don’t say “eh”.
Twain @ 87
This is the eve of the midsummer recess, FISA and an Emer. Sup. Bill for Minn. need to be resolved, oh , I forgot the DoD Approp. Bill, that is scheduled directly after this Ener Tax Bill!!! Capiche!!! *g*
GSD @ 88
Yea, and that too!
Twain @ 87
So do we get an energy tax in trade for civil liberties? Reminds me of the Dems getting a raise in the minimum wage before they forked over war occupation funding.
Valley Girl @ 82
We all do it. :) Only here, we do it a lot longer than other places. It’s three months tied to the phone. Have to call in virtually every afternoon to see if one is needed the next day.
CTuttle @ 95
Got it. Have they indicated they will just keep going?
i am wrong for assuming that the house (pelosi) and WH (cheneybu$hco) are in negotiations over this FISA bill, as we speak, and that c-span is showing the house of reps doing busy (albeit constructive) work, while waiting them out?
i guess not, Pelosi just took the Chair.
help?
The Nazis predicated their existance upon hatred. So does the President. In spite of the hypocrisy he spouts, Mr Bush wants us to hate Muslims. I refuse to do it.
Ian, thanks so much for your story! Like others are saying, it’s very inspirational.
Your story reminded me of my favorite quote:
“A rooster crows only when it sees the light. Put him in the dark and he’ll never crow. I have seen the light and I’m crowing.” ~ Muhammad Ali, famous boxer & Sunni Muslim
We’ve seen the light and we know what is happening in the White House and what they’re doing. We are crowing loudly and we cannot be blamed in essence if the republic is not saved by those who have the power to do so. But…we can also start crowing & storming DC. :-)
Elliott @ 86
I was quite shocked once when a Jewish woman I knew made the same assumption about my German-speaking Mennonite family who came to Canada via Mexico.
Because in this case she was wrong.
yellowdog jim @ 100
I think it’s significant that she took the chair.
It appears the energy bill passed. The repubs have been whining about it all day. At least they were every time I woke up and looked at the tv. Been sick in bed all day.
Twain @ 99
They have to, if they want to get out of town!!!
Elliott @ 86
The flip side of this (?) is that I have a friend whose family left Berlin and via a long journey before, ended up first in Argentina, and then Uruguay. Not everyone who ended up in SA was Nazi, or pro-Hitler. Some were Jews.
Some of the bombing raids in WW2 were questionable- Hiroshima and Nagasaki may not have been necessary except as a warning to the Russians…The fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden had huge death tolls out of proportion to their strategic effect…not gonna go around hangin my head in shame- but it’s worth asking whether they were necessary.
fisa up!
BigMitch @ 92
I’d say so. Of course not being American is a large part of our national identity, so I’d have to say that!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
OKK — He doesn’t want us to hate the Saudi royal family. They are our friends.
KayInMaine @ 102
There is no trying. There is only doing or not doing.
Fern @ 103
well, there are a few more details, but I certainly take your point!
I thought DOD appropriations were going to tied to troop withdrawal after Patraeus reports next month.
Am I missing something?
Have family that lived through Nazi occupation. Saw their Jewish neighbors taken away. Spent nights in air raid shelters. Saw Germans marching down the the boulevards and avenues every day singing their patriotic songs. Walking the streets today one finds plaques on street corners with names of those murdered by German troops as they withdrew. Family in Italy live across the street from a former bank that is still rubble. When asked why it had not been rebuilt was told that it was the site where dozens of Italian civilians were murdered by German troops. Echos of World War II can be found everywhere in Europe and the people have not forgotten. Americans, with the exception of those who were there and have been there have no idea of the cost of war. To many Americans, it’s nothing more than a patriotic song, a yellow ribbon or magnetic sticker on their SUV.
selise @ 109
Whoa Nellie! It’s the Defense Appropriations bill! A lot of back and forth needs to occur, then, it’s FISA!!! *g* (see my 95!)
BigMitch @ 112
Exactly! Let’s hit the streets. ;-)
Valley Girl @ 107
The Jews who landed in Argentina faced a continuation of Nazi persecution. See, Jacabo Timmerman, “Prisoner without a Name, Cell without a Number.”
GSD @ 88
The German people didn’t go along with Hitler any more than we’re going along with W. Hitler’s highest votewas less than 40%. And the German people had way more provocation to go along with a demagogue. Defeat in a devasting war (which the generals kept saying they were winning, where have we heard that), reparations, hyperinflation, all of which was preceeded by (always destabilizing) rapid social & economic change in the late 1800s. Hitler restored the nation to international standing after all that (1936 Olympics). Heck, 99% of the chickenshit Americans would have followed W if he’d performed such a miracle. Once he’d seized total power, there was little the people could do. Dictatorships are often the most stable form of government.
Having said all that, I’m not sure whether the U.S. could have won any other way. But the people of Germany did suffer mightily, for sins not of their making, any more than the WTC victims were responsible for the U.S. policies that OBL hates.
selise @ 109
so that’s what hoyer’s doing?
thx
KayInMaine @ 117
I am hoping that YKOS links together the blogosphere with a commitment to take the next step.
Ooh, Hoyer has severely hindered all pro forma actions on the DoD Bill!!!
Hatred is not ethnic specific.
“The German people didn’t go along with Hitler any more than we’re going along with W.”
Bullshit.
Bluetoe @ 115
WW II means nothing to most Americans today. How worthless is the history taught to American schoolchildren.
yellowdog jim @ 120
Aargh, Not Yet!!!
Bluetoe @ 115
Well said.
CTuttle @ 122
sounds like a railroad job on the FISA express.
Hang On!
Jonathan @ 111
Ah, money. The great equalizer.
CTuttle @ 116
thanks. but i think before hoyer started talking about defense appropriations he was talking about the senate fisa bill. i missed the details. anyone catch ‘em?
BigMitch @ 121
That would be a beautiful thing. It’s the large liberal blogs that have the power to organize a huge protest on DC like this. I think it’s time to do something, because right now, people are so frustrated and there is no clear answer as to how to achieve impeachment or anything else we’d like to see done or changed. Storming DC with pitchforks & torches might do the trick.
yellowdog jim @ 128
On the last thread I expressed the very same sentiment!!! *g*
selise @ 130
so not FISA yet.
People tend to go along with a threatening power- and then make up rationalizations for it- at leat 99% of people do- those who don’t are mankind’s true heros.
IntelVet @ 66
My Mom just died at age 93 a few months ago and she said exactly the same thing. In fact, she said this within a year of the Bush Administration’s oath to uphold the Constitution. She became more and more vocal until her memory failed completely and dementia ruled her mind.
No one can ever said they never knew. Why? Because we have blasted it all over the Internet, TV, radio, films.
BigMitch @ 124
Bullshit on one count or two?
CTuttle @ 132
well after the ramrod through the senate That rail train was bound for glory (house o’ reps)!
I do hope the members are aware they’re being watched by their constituents! It could be a loooong Summer for them!!! ;-)
rwcole @ 134
Yep. Too few people understand how weak human nature is, and how extraordinary it is when someone shows courage.
Now let’s get our Ds to show some courage & be extraordinary.
rwcole @ 108
Yes, and historians are no beginning to discuss this.
I’m watchin my little fascist congresscritter- but I already KNOW what he’s gonna do.
Ian..really wonderful story about what matters..sadly not many people really appreciate all the people that come down a path to learn from…you are one rare person that you appreciated this man and his lessons….and you are wise enough to share the lessons..thank you and namaste. Come over to Watergate Summer anytime….I would like to hear more of your stories…
CTuttle @ 122
More? (and thanks)
ok. here we go.
Although Hitler never received more than 33% of the vote in the last Reichstag elections before he was appointed Chancellor, he did have growing support among the population as he consolidated power. It’s a myth to suggest that the majority of the German population wasn’t behind him and his foreigh policy. His support only began to erode, and then very slowly, after the defeat at Stalingrad.
yellowdog jim @ 137
If Nancy quavers I’m donating to Sheehan’s campaign chest!!!
FISA!
senate 1927
BigMitch @ 124
BigMitch: Are you saying the American people aren’t going along with war criminal George W. Bush? I don’t understand.
Here comes FISA on CSPAN.
BigMitch @ 124
I agree…but the potential is in our society.
Lahoma and I frequent this wonderful little deli. It serves Jewish food and plays German music. We absolutely love it.
Show Time!!! Reyes is at the Podium!!!
just wanted to say, an inspiring story from Ian and his benefactor/friend Peter. one of the things we have that they didn’t – instant connection over the toobz. let’s use it to our advantage folks.
anyone know if there is a rule or if the rule is being waived?
Reyes was our guy who didn’t know if al qeda was sunni or shia.
Will someone stuff a sock in Reyes mouth? I hope the democrats in the House don’t cave in and allow George Bush more power than he or any other president in the past and in the future deserves!
Jees.
too bad BushCo can’t be trusted, what if there is a real known threat?
Let the hot air begin. Lamar Smith up…
yellowdog jim @ 155
Instills confidence, eh?!!!
cheneyBu$hco are the threat.
Hitler showed up at a pretty low point for germany- there was a world depression and on top of that they were saddled with huge reparation payments from the treay of Versailles. The right and the left were at each other’s throats- communists were VERY active throughout the country- people were starvin…
What Hitler did was to say “We should never have surrendered- we were sold down the river by our leaders” What he did was to pick up arms and start the same old war all over again.
Marie Roget @ 149
link?
yellowdog jim @ 160
them too
Elliott @ 157
They’ll be playing guitar, eating cake, and shopping for shoes when a real known threat is found…and….they’ll do nothing. See?
isn’t it remarkable how Republicans act like they are still in charge? why is that?
KayInMaine @ 164
OOhh..
So, any Firepups get their congresscritters’ offices to state, for the record, that their bosses have read the Fuck The Fourth Amendment Act?
That meme doesn’t fly, Fisa has been ‘upgraded’ ten-twelve times since 1978!!!
TiredFed @ 165
because they are?
TiredFed @ 165
because effectively they are in charge
selise @ 154
wish we had a pipeline in to the speaker. no idea if they worked out a rule, so this could mean a 2/3rds majority vote is required. how likely is that?
Elliott @ 166
Ouch. That did hurt, huh? Yikes.
pseudonymous in nc @ 167
no luck here
selise @ 170
so I’m not the only one (was a rhetorical question, but worthy of responses)
Kay, sez: “It’s the large liberal blogs that have the power to organize a huge protest on DC like this. I think it’s time to do something, because right now, people are so frustrated and there is no clear answer as to how to achieve impeachment or anything else we’d like to see done or changed.”
Absolutely correct. Which is why it has to be carefully planned. If I go to D.C. to march in an impeach Bush demonstration, and someone stands up on a podium and starts arguing the case for Israel withdrawal from the Gaza, I will go nuts. How focussed should we be? Impeachment, End the War, or both?
Tax fairness? National Health care? No, I don’t think any of those are appropriate. But what about Habeas and Privacy (FiSA) Hell, yes!
Just a march in D.C. or moratoria all over the country? What about stopping traffic? Who is to speak?
My point is that there’s a lot to be worked out. The genius of the internet is that there is no central control. It is like the interstate highway system: no single bomb can take it out. But that is also a weakness when the need for centralized leadership reveals itself.
KayInMaine @ 172
But you’re right, that’s what happened the last time, right?
Ian, thank you for sharing your friend Peter with us. He sounds like someone with a highly developed sense of responsibility and a lot of heart. I don’t know if he was religious or not, but if he was, he taught by example, not by smacking you over the head with a religious text.
You were lucky to know him. And we’re lucky you’re here with us!
Go, Zoe!!!
lhp out there?
Richmond @ 162
I’m watcing it on tv- think it’s on this link:
http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_…..mp;Code=CS
i LIKE Zoe Lofgren.
God rest his soul.
And may many more take the same attitude he had.
Yep. Too few people understand how weak human nature is, and how extraordinary it is when someone shows courage.
Courage is not so rare. Courage that makes a difference and is remembered as such is what’s rare.
How many people, if you asked them, could remember Rachel Corrie and what she did? Or any number of whistleblowers who have tried to tell the truth about the Bush administration?
I guess we’re about to find out who took their constitutional oath seriously and who needs to get the fuck out of politics as soon as is humanly possible.
Thanks, Ian, for a great story!
Its a good reminder that there’s more than just white hats and black hats out there.
Bob in HI
Bluetoe @ 145
Under the circumstances of how Hitler revived the country, of course the people were behind him. As I said in my 119, if W had pulled off such a miracle here, 99% of Americans would have been behind him. All W did was hold a photo op at WTC site & got something like a 70% rating. And remember how great everyone thought Reagan was after Carter’s sorry performance.
Being behind a leader who brings your country out of devastation is not the same as tying on to his future policies, as we have now learned. And we have also learned how difficult it is to turn a leader we thought was a winner into the jerk he really is, and how difficult it is to cap his power after he is shown to be a jerk.
Thanks Marie! Alas, it doesn’t seem to be on the web. :-(
Is the woman behind Blunt smirking?
Elliott @ 157
perennial problem with wolf-criers.
excellent story Ian, thanks!
(if Blunt is for it i am against it.
do we have a prayer of defeating this???)
Richmond @ 187
It’s here.
TiredFed @ 171
finger’s crossed for 2/3 requirement (like last night), but after reyes’ intro i am not so hopeful.
p.s. i tried to explain (although not very well) my concerns on the rule in a previous thread. starting here, with several follow ups because of the confusion i induced.
Of course, the ‘technology gap’ that Blunt bloviated about is the technology used to snoop, not the technology used to communicate. The NSA can’t be spending big money on big computers and not get to play with them.
Lahoma tells me it’s time to play (again) one of our faves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4v6qRdnKas
Eli – Thank you for this provocative post. It forces us to look at our own stereotyping of people. I often wonder about people who were torturers in war zones and after peace is declared go about their lives as though nothing happened. Let bygones be bygones mentality! What kind of “normal” life can such a person have? At what point and how do you place it in some distant part of your memory?
Beautiful post, Ian.
BTW, here’s a surprisingly even-handed assessment (from Chris Cillizza, WaPo, yet) of the Democratic candidates KOS visit.
Richmond @ 187
sure it is. check out cspan.org or cspan.com.
My quote about “the German people going along” of course excludes the German people who left, the German people who fought against the Nazis and those that had a change of heart too.
But by and large a government can be brought to its knees by its citizenry if they are committed to change it.
So there were large numbers of Germans who were openly complicit or were passively complicit because things weren’t affecting them directly. Until things began to affect them directly and by then as Goerring said: The jig is up.
-GSD
Elliott @ 188
yes, but probably because someone let her know she’s on TV.
eCAHNomics @ 186
eCAHN for president
BigMitch @ 175
Exactly. We understand and care about the plight of the Israelis/Palestinians…but we need an American demonstration to save the republic from the hands of those who have been in our government for the past seven years who have done nothing to preserve and to protect it.
And yes! Habeas Corpus, FISA, Military Commissions (pro-torture), Patriot Act, and all the other stuff that has put our nation into a constitutional crisis.
Hell….let’s have a Constitutional Convention right there on the south lawn down there in DC! ;-)
We can make this work. We just have to have the backing of the large liberal blogs to help in organizing.
Thanks for this, Ian.
EPU’ed at #63 in last thread: What the FISA vote says to me:
From noodlng through more of Thomas Paine I see that there have been elected monarchs (some weird setup in Poland, as I recall) and absolutist elective monarchies. That, folks, is what we have here, I believe.
“Liberalism” == “anti-absolutism”.
19th century European politics is suddenly awfully d*mned relevant to the present situation.
So far, as usual, the democrats are making sense and the republicans are sounding like jackboot clicking/liking Bush supporters. *sigh*
yellowdog jim @ 199
I prefer to think she was smirking at Blunt.
Jonathan @ 148
The German people went along with Hitler plenty. For all the problems that Germany faced — hyperinflation, starvation, Communists, you name it — their past doesn’t excuse the way they exploited anti-Semitism which was deep within the German soul, and not a creation of Hitler. America has a much more united opposition to Bush, than Germany ever did to Hitler. Having said that, it is disgraceful that we (i.e. the American people) are going along with Bush as far as we have to date. But we haven’t gone as far as Aushwitz. That’s just the facts.
Thanks everyone for the cspan links!
The known threat is within our country, not from without. The motive is uncomplicated its power, their biggest tool is our belief that our leaders will do whats right.
streaming on c-span now.
Elliott @ 205
hell, MAY have been!
Gohmert, the ultimate gooper
I really think the House Dems will hold the line! The House Dems aren’t clubby like the Senators, we shall see…!!! 8-)
GSD @ 198
So why is Mugabe still in charge of Zinbabwe? I guess the citizens just aren’t committed enough. Ditto Iraqis under SH. As I said, dictorship is one of the more stable forms of govt.
how can gohert use the word “accountable”?
Gomer Gohmert saying that foreigners are cutting off American heads and have declared war against the United States.
What planet is this rube from?
behindthefall @ 203
Or, alternatively, 17th century English politics. The writings against arbitrary monarchy feel very, very relevant these days.
(My, Gohmert Pyle is astonishingly dumb.)
selise @ 193
just catching up after making dinner (grilled salmon in lemon dill sauce, salad, fresh fruit). I have to say, I dont see that you were off base. dont sweat the small stuff selise. you do such amazing work on the web. let’s see what the House has in store for us this evening. Conyers on!
argosfalcon @ 208
I know one or two people who do that on a personal level.
FISA debate on C-SPAN right now! Jerry Nadler up, speaking against the bill.
Bob in HI
Jonathan @ 200
I’m speechless.
BigMitch @ 206
Question: If there were a presidential election today — GWB vs. Hillary, or whoever — who would win. Really?
sounds like the Dem’s aren’t giving in – could be a good fight tonight!
On the morning of 9/11, did anyone here feel like the terrorists that day wanted to change our way of life or did everyone feel like I did that my country has been acting very badly for a very long time and we were hit because of it?
Rep. Gohmert thinks it’s the former. It’s because of the way we live. Let’s see….freedom like America or a dictatorship where only the top few have freedom? Hmmmmm, not sure I’m seeing Gohmert’s point.
The Gavel has more details, and it sure sounds good!
Buy a tank of gas and you are fighting for the Bush Family. Take another flight to grandma’s, pay your taxes or watch FOXNoise and GE can build another thingy to kill people attending a wedding reception.
The first root of the idea of “Salvation Through Grace” is that ones animal instinct of self preservation can override human compassion. The second root is that you can often cause suffering in ways that you can never connect with reason or research.
“We all sin and fall short of the glory of God.” is meaningful regardless of ones beliefs (or lack thereof).
Go Nadler!!
jayt @ 216
unfortunately, ours
BigMitch @ 206
I agree. As bad as things are now, there is still a qualitative difference between a regime (ours) that unleashes a pandora’s box of chaotic slaughter (Iraq)……and one where millions of people are systematically loaded on trains and taken to gas chambers.
Nadler – the only purpose of this bill is to protect this administration from its own wrongdoing.
Hell, yeah.
Keep in mind folks, that a majority in the House voted last night for the Dem FISA bill. Becuz they did not pass a rule governing that bill, it required a 2/3rds majority to pass.
Nadler was good.
Jonathan @ 26
Jonathan, I know you were in Nam, so was I.
When my deros came up, I extended for 6 months….came back home for 10 days. I hated that goddamn war, but while I was home, I read Mailer’s Naked and the Dead. I started missing my friends, wondering if everyone was OK, if me not being there affectd the performance of our little team.
After having been in country more than 18 months, I extended again, for another 6 months. I was a kid, there were some things terrifying me, but there was also many inspirational things…going into villes and seeing not hatred, but a spark of trust in someone’s eyes. Granted, my team spent most of our time hiding doing identification of NVA units so intel people would know which units were in the area and what might be coming up.
I still can’t say why I voluntarily extended a situation sort of analogous to today’s troops because they are all, nominally, volunteers.
I originally enlisted because I was about to fail out of college because i partied too much and I didn’t want to get drafted into the army for two years….so I enlisted in the Marine Corps for four years.
My powers of logic have gotten much better over the years.
Your folks are in my prayers, Kiddo.
jayt @ 223
I agree! It looks like they’ve got some spunk!!!
Issa has an extra special place in his next life.
BigMitch @ 175
Why would you go nuts about people wanting to let Palestinians have their land back.
David Olsen @ 183
According to Wikipedia what she done is not forgotten, so much as unknown. According to one view, i.e. the Israeli view:
eCAHNomics @ 220
you’ll never win that way.
Nadler is technically correct. The President is conducting illegal acts. Wonder if Nadler’s statement will hold.
Screw you, Issa! Nadler’s words had better not be stricken. This is all a WH scam to help repugs get reelected and we all know it!
Issa!!! WTF!!!
I also agree that the US is far from a fascist dictatorship, but the signs are pointing in a really bad direction.
-GSD
are they gonna strike Nadler’s words about Bush’s illegality?
Now Nadler withdraws his own “truthful and accurate” statement.
I like this guy.
Issa think I detect a hissy fit coming.
The “words” were withdrawn, but Nadler left a mark (slight but a mark).
jayt @ 222
the tension building…
after Carter’s sorry performance.
eCHANomics, have you ever asked yourself where we might be if Carter’s energy intiatives for alternatives sources and conservation had been implemented and carried through to today? Somehow I think we would be a very different country.
oh yeah. I like Jerry Nadler.
can we win this????
SeamusD @ 235
SeamusD, Big Mitch was pointing out that some of these protests get overrun with issues that not all Americans care about (most liberals do care about what is happening between Israel & Palestine). He’s suggesting we have a well-focused protest with the current issues that outraged Americans are wanting to get across. That’s all.
LoudounLib @ 232
yeah
Hi LL !
Franks – “imminent possibility of a terrorist attack”..
These fuckers wouldn’t know the truth if it bit them in the ass.
KayInMaine @ 223
I knew nothing on 9/11. Everything I now know I’ve learned since. And believe me, it was really important for me to learn & know.
Nadler willingly withdrew his truthful and accurate statements (stating that BushCo has broken the law). Issa got what he wanted and looked like an ass doing so. What else is new?
And may I apologize to all that the execrable Lamar Smith is leading the Rethug charge in favor of FISA in the House. I have the extreme misfortune to have Smith as my congressman.
CTuttle @ 233
energized by a few phone calls perhaps?
jayt @ 222
i think it all depends on the rule.
if the rule is being suspended (as it was yesterday) then 2/3 votes are required to pass. (and dems should be able to block passage).
if the rule is simple majority – then it may be that the dems have already caved and this is kabuki (unless they can hold together a majority to block).
disclaimer: i could have it completely wrong…. just trying to educate myself on this on the fly.
“But we haven’t gone as far as Aushwitz. That’s just the facts.”
Probably just because it is easier to kill them over there than over here. That, and Amtrak sucks.
james @ 231
James – Here’s why I served. I felt the war in Viet Nam was the most important event of my life (generation). I needed to understand it. Not because I supported the war, but because it was such a big deal with my friens and me.
Elliott @ 237
You caught my drift.
The repugs are up to no good. There’s no way this is suddenly an emergency. The dems and the DCI agreed on changes, the only person unhappy was Bush.
Everything about this bill stinks!
Elliott @ 255
I called mine!!!
Yes… Drag the AG lies into this!
eCAHNomics @ 213
Which is the very reason Republicans are so comfortable with it.
eCAHNomics @ 252
That is a good point, but certainly none of us were saying (like Gohmert was suggesting), “This happened because I’m in love with a man (or a woman)!”. Nope. None of us except Jerry Falwell and a few other reich wing nutcakes were talking and thinking like that.
So, Ian, what has taken place since you saw Peter? I’m interested.
I’m watching the debate. Where is everybody?
pseudonymous in nc @ 216
Mmmm. Tried to edit that to say 17th/18th century, but it wouldn’t take the edit. If what I’m getting from Paine is right, then it extended beyond England, too.
TiredFed @ 247
When NYers are good, they are very, very good. OTOH, mine’s a nebbish (Maloney).
BigMitch @ 206
The facts as being reconsidered today aren’t with you on this.
Jonathan @ 221
HRC 2:1
dakine01 @ 253
bless you my son, for you are without sin.
Sheila Jackson Lee!!
Why not address the obvious deficiencies in our Intel, hire more Arabic translators! *g*
Eureka Springs @ 261
Don’t know if anyone answered your question earlier.
The tying of the troop withdrawal to the DoD appropriations bill was strictly for the Senate.
yellowdog jim @ 271
Love her!
Go Sheila.
I’ll be interested to see how Mike Arcuri votes; he’s my guy and both we called his office this morning as well as emailed Pelosi.
Thanks dakine.. *wipes brow*
eCAHNomics @ 252
I watched the second plane hit and started hearing beepers going off. The guys working on my house were fire marshals who did ID of bodies at disaster scenes, my wife was a detective. I knew my addition wasn’t getting done and i knew my wife was gonna be gone for awhile.
My first question to one of the guys, who was also an Army reservist, was where the fuck are the fighters to protect the city? Something smelled about this thing from the get-go, especially when I kept hearing stories about four or five more planes in the sky other than the two that hit WTC and the Pentagon and the one down in PA. Where were those other planes? Why were there blips on radar screens if there weren’t corresponding planes in the air?
Get hold of Crossing the Rubicon by Mike Ruppert and read about Vigilant Warrior that was being conducted that day, supervised by Dick Cheney.
Sheila for AG!!!
i am afraid i MUST (?) go
with my family
to see
Naruto.
we do it as a team.
defeat FISA!!
KayInMaine @ 274
{{{{{{{{{{ Sheila!!!!!}}}}}}}}}}
Sheila Jackson Lee rocks!
Sheila Jackson Lee – blistering!
“Shame on the other body!”
Standing O here (couldn’t start the wave all by myself)
where are the moderates. need to hear from a Blue Dog or 2.
waves to Elliott, but trying to keep quiet here ;-)
SeamusD @ 235
I won’t debate that point here or now. It is not the place. Same goes for a demonstration in Washington D.C. to stop the war, impeach the president and restore the constitution.
Yes, that thought I did have on the day. I still have it. Never explained.
right now i’m angry with quisling dems who voted with repugs on giving bushco more powers…. i hope the house will show more spunk… i am upset at senate dems sheesh!
jayt @ 284
So did I! Now I’m wiping the tomatoes off my telly for the one’s I directed at Lungren!!!
no surprises from Sheila Jackson-Lee or Lungren (ugh). want to hear from someone in the middle.
Lungren must believe that if he says it louder, it will make it so.
New thread upstairs.
yellowdog jim @ 270
AND, let him who is without sin among us, etc. My congresscreature is — eeeee-yeeew — Tom Davis.
You firedogs are all My Friend Peter. We have to get through this.. and we will.
I like the pubs describing this bill and FISA law….
Isn’t it true that AGAG etc won’t tell us what the scoop is?
We are seeing the Duma give the absolutist Czar whatever he decrees necessary.
FYI, New post
Lungren’s daddy stance.
(grumbling)
Big voice singing from the lobster pot.
Somebody turn the heat on high, won’t ya?
anyone in MD want to go see Barb to ask her to explain her vote on FISA?
oddmommy @ 293
… may you be the first, and take a shot for me …
New thread topside.
What are the odds of a site admin setting up a FISA thread so we can stay on topic? :)
Steve Pordon @ 301
i like that plan.
BigMitch @ 124
There has been a long-standing policy of abuse and suppression of Arabs and Persians that has been enabled and encouraged by the U.S. through the supplying of weapons, sharing of intelligence, CIA political campaigns that have toppled democracies, etc. And the U.S. population and the U.S. press has been every bit as complict as those of the Third Reich.
eCAHNomics @ 287
There was only one article, I think Vanity Fair that got the tapes of the Air Force people in charge of protecting NYC, they had a total of two fighter jets, send them up too soon and they run out of fuel, send them up too late, well then it’s just too late. And there were only two fighter jets to protect Washington, also. Yes, a total of 4 jets to protect the East Coast.
Toby Wollin @ 276
He’s mine, too. I’m sure he’ll vote against. He’s one of the co-sponsors for the impeach Gonzo bill. I left him an email, thanking him in advance for his vote.
I wanted to add:
The hijackers turned off the tranponder for each jet, so there was no easy way to track them, they were not stupid.
CTuttle @ 289
Lungren is the rep from my district. What a stupid dickkkkweedddd!
QuakerGirl @ 135
Did she have PTSD after 9/11? A woman I know said her mother who grew up in wartime Germany had it bad after 9/11.
ian- peter knew you would pay it back, in kind…….and you have.
TiredFed @ 284
The Blue Mutts will vote with the Republicans as is their wont. Watch them split the caucus.
montag @ 98
I don’t understand. Are you part of a grand jury? Does the three month requirement limit the jury pool to retirees and the like?
BigMitch @ 236
I certainly remember what she did. And I hope that the presentation of Rachel Corrie’s diary is held in every major city in the U.S.A. Her diaries bring alive as nothing else can what life is like in the Palestinian territories. (I’ve been there, though it was decades ago.)
Bob in HI
oddmommy @ 228
There will not be an exact repeat, of course. But Tancredo saying he would like to destroy Mecca is so evil and vicious, I have no words for it.
egregious @ 8
Thank you Egregious. I was very glad to meet you and all the other Firepups (and authors) I met at Ykos. One of the main reasons I went.
raven @ 90
The mass civilian casualty bombing was studied after the war and the conclusion was that it didn’t appreciably hasten the end of the war or weaken the German war effort. It was bombing designed to do mass civilian casualties, in many cases (Dresden definitely) and was as destructive or more than being hit by a nuke (without the radiation/psych impact of it being done by one bomb.)
(Put it this way – the Blitz didn’t break Britain, and Allied Bomber command didn’t break Germany. Troops on the ground did. Japan is a different discussion.)
Peter’s comment, btw, was that he didn’t think it helped the Allies much.
GSD @ 198
Yup.
And yet. If you resisted too hard you were likely to wind up hung or with a bullet in you.
At what point would you say “no. No I won’t?”
I ain’t saying it because I’m sure that if my country fell to fascism, and did horrible things and I were, say, drafted, I would have the courage to say “no”. I hope I would. But…
Most people don’t. Even the ones who know better.
When do you become complicit?
Peter knew he was complicit, even as a teenager.
karen allen @ 264
Peter was old fairly young, and pretty sickly when I met him, unfortunately. He was an amazing handyman (could wire a house, lay bricks, do stonework, do plumbing, carpentry and so on) but he was very weak by that time and he’d show me, or tell me what to do and supervise the trickier stuff (plumbing mostly carefully).
So, alas, he’s no longer around. I wanted him to write a book about his life (he had an amazing life with many adventures), but it never happened.
Thank you for sharing this inspirational story. But I suspect that Peter would feel far more comfortable if you deleted the last sentence, for the sake of those who suffered unimaginable pain under Hitler.
“That man, who fought for Hitler, might have been the best man I’ve ever met.”
lespool @ 318
It strikes at certain questions about complicity and redemption, which is why I’m afraid, though I understand where you’re coming from, I shan’t delete it. It actually caps the post and without it the post wouldn’t quite wrap properly.
Certainly, of course, you’re right that Peter would never have said, or even thought, that he was a particularly good man. But then, such people rarely do. And maybe you can’t be a good man, or one of the best men, if you ever fought for a country, for a leader, who did horrible things.
The reason I put up this post, actually, was as a footnote to the conversation with Maryam.
The question of complicity should strike very close to home, and most especially given how Americans always say they support the troops.
As for Peter – perhaps he was a very bad man, because of what he did in his youth. When I have told this story in the past I have often had people tell me he was scum, because he fought for Hitler and nothing could ever erase that.
Which leads to the questions of change, redemption and forgiveness. But I’ll leave those for another time, except to say that I believe in second chances and third acts.
eCAHNomics @ 119
While Hitler’s party never received more than 40% of the vote in any election…the German people also voted for other nationalist parties (e.g. Bismark’s) that eventually formed a coalition with the Nazi’s to easily win a majority over the more liberal parties of the Weimer government.
Pre-WW2 Germany was a Parliamentary state…and in such states the jostling of political affinities and ministries is worked out after the elections. In the US it’s done beforehand. The religious right in ante-bellum Germany had their own party, so did the industrialist/
business/capitalists, and so did the anti-immigrants.
The amazing thing is how much power Bush has consolidated IN SPITE OF his relative lack of electoral support…and the clear absence of support in polls.
That’s one reason that Bush’s effort to spy on us will ultimately fail. The more people talking about impeachment or political action the fewer they can haul off…and if they do this there will be proof to the bulk of the population that there is a real and imminent DANGER!
But like Germany, the bulk of opposition has been apathetic and inactive. Those that were “active” were fighting between each other more iontently than looking at the real danger. The left of left-factions of the Soc*al*st Party in Austria actually sat-out the election in 1936 refusing to support the Socialist Party candidates on the ballot. Didn’t we learn ANYTHING from the fiasco in 2000? Is our collective memory so shallow?
We need to start pushing back…and that means embarassing REPUBLICANS and DEMOCRATS who continue to suppoort Bush. People need to go to these Congressman’s offices for meetings and simply not leave until their “petitions” are heard. I recall that Rep. Matsui’s office had a sit-in for weeks to swing her vote (and I really understand this was because there was a Green Party candidate who wanted to run for her seat).
But I see almost no action against the Pugs like Issa, Drier, or Lungren. These guys just voted to suspend your Constitutional rights to privacy for a half year!
Did Hillary? Did Obama? Did Pelosi?
Yet a lot of people on FDL seem to equate them with Romney or Giuliani? I simply don’t get it? I can understand the idea that one Democratic candidate is better than another…but commentators that actually equate Clinton to Giuliani or Thompson? That’s daft as Nader saying there was “absolutely no difference between Republicans and Democrats”. History proved Nader mad as a hatter. And his 2004 run showed that he was more about ego than anything else.
Again, infighting is exactly what will bring Guiliani or Fred Thompson into power. And then, instead of some FISA bill that suspends your freedom for 6 months you’ll have the 4th Amendment consigned to history.
We have 6 months to reverse this vote and swing those Blue Dogs over to support the Constitution. To get a bill through (despite Bush’s veto threats) to limit funding in the Iraq War to withdrawal by a certain date.
I’m not worried about the bulk of the Democratic Party. But we need to make it very hot for those Blue Dogs and Republicans.
Remember this vote on FISA passed the Senate by the barest of margins…it’ll take just ONE switched vote to block such a renewal bill from reaching the floor next time. ONE VOTE! If we can’t burn someones behind to do this then the netroots might as well fold the tent and crawl away.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
eCAHNomics @ 213
Because no one wants to die. And Mugabe and Saddam would kill their internal opponents.
Once the Rubicon is crossed where the leader will eliminate those who are outspoken against his regime…people crawl away and ignore when their neighbor is hauled off in the dark of the night.
And it happens to the most normal people. In two experiments performed in the 1960’s before one had to inform subjects of what the experiment was about before they consented two seminal investigations were done that show just how malleable people are to doing things that they “would never do.”
The Milgram Experiment
“In Milgram’s first set of experiments, 65% (26 out of 40)[1] of experimental participants administered the experiment’s final 450-volt shock, though many were quite uncomfortable in doing so; everyone paused at some point and questioned the experiment, some even saying they would return the cheque for the money they were paid. No participant steadfastly refused to give further shocks before the 300-volt level.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The Zimbardo Experiment
And sometimes we are not just Good Germans, but good gaurds, and compliant prisoners, too. [BTW this explains the behavior of Moussouai and Jose Padilla].
http://www.prisonexp.org/
cinnamonape @ 320
Ian Welsh @ 319
I think Peter is exactly as you portrayed him; a kind and gentle altruistic man. I didn’t mean to question or doubt the reality in which you knew him (sorry if I came across like that). — And I would never judge Peter’s goodness or lack thereof for whatever atrocities he may or may not have committed in Germany as a teenager. Teenagers are still vulnerable children — victims of their surroundings. I give Peter credit for surviving in the nightmare exploding around him. (I would have committed suicide — seriously.)
But I don’t think I can really ever forgive the adults who allowed such evil intolerance to hold sway — just as I blame myself for the blood that we spill in Iraq. I guess that’s why the last sentence in your otherwise remarkable memoir with Peter left me a little dismayed. — As I understood it Peter was a teenager who was either interned or conscripted and forced to fight in Hitler’s youth camps. That’s a far cry from a man, consciously choosing to fight on behalf of Hitler’s unmitigated evil.
I’m sorry if I sound so critical because you’ve written such a beautiful story. I guess I just can’t bare the thought of giving Hitler credit for anything good that might have come from fighting on his side. — For all the victims caught up in the madness, I agree they deserve another chance. But not Hitler, never Hitler. Although, I do understand that was not your intention and I thank you for your kind response.
lespool @ 323
But I don’t think I can really ever forgive the adults who allowed such evil intolerance to hold sway — just as I blame myself for the blood that we spill in Iraq. I guess that’s why the last sentence in your otherwise remarkable memoir with Peter left me a little dismayed. — As I understood it Peter was a teenager who was either interned or conscripted and forced to fight in Hitler’s youth camps. That’s a far cry from a man, consciously choosing to fight on behalf of Hitler’s unmitigated evil.
I’m sorry if I sound so critical because you’ve written such a beautiful story. I guess I just can’t bare the thought of giving Hitler credit for anything good that might have come from fighting on his side. — For all the victims caught up in the madness, I agree they deserve another chance. But not Hitler, never Hitler. Although, I do understand that was not your intention and I thank you for your kind response.
Thank you lespool. And I certainly agree about Hitler.
I don’t think, in fact I know, that Peter didn’t use his age to hide from responsibility. He knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong but he chose to survive (and incidentally, his actions reflected on his family, who would also have been held responsible for what he did. Peter could have refused to fight, but there would have been severe consequences. His father being a VP in Siemens was a lot of protection for him and his family, but it wasn’t total.)