Christy!

ZED

reading my mind, Redd… just wrote Pelosi, now I will call…

off to treat myself to breakfast – carb-loading for heavy phone work a bit later…

“Al Qaeda is not going on vacation this month,” said Sen. Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

Got a copy of the Al Qaeda employee handbook, did you?

dialing now…

anyone have the House bill # handy?

If Al Qaeda is not going on vacation, Mitch McConnell, then WHY ARE YOU?

“It’s time to hit the phone lines, boys and girls.” And letters to the editor.

Lahoma and I are unhappy with our party this morning.

TiredFed @ 7

anyone have the House bill # handy?

I have a feeling they’ll know what you’re talking about…*g* –

okay – out for now

selise, ygm

albert fall @ 5

employee handbook

The real one? Or the one probably Gonzo wrote?

Democrats in Congress. It’s time you thought seriously about the prospect of a third party. Some of us Dems are very fed up.

I’ve transcribed a little under half of Howard Dean’s keynote address here.

Will do more later. (Maybe.)

I want to remind everyone to frame your concerns so it has the most impact

things like “they are violating my privacy” are not as affective as;

“they are stealing my information”

“they are stealing my bussiness secrets”

“these appointees are spying on me wife and kids and I don’t trust them”

“how can I discuss trade secrets knowing these people are listening to them?”

stuff like that please

Renee in Ohio @ 14

I’ve transcribed a little under half of Howard Dean’s keynote address here.

Will do more later. (Maybe.)

Thank you! It was a great speech.

Well, Feinstein’s office recording says to call during office hours, or if you want to leave a message, call the CA office.

Couldn’t even leave a message expressing my displeasure.

If you’re still here, Christy, I’d love to know if last night’s vote is a big topic at YKos.

Gonzales changes story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02238.html

Oklahoma kiddo @ 13

Democrats in Congress. It’s time you thought seriously about the prospect of a third party. Some of us Dems are very fed up.

Speaking personally, I’m still firmly behind the party. We do need to identify and target for removal those who don’t live up to our expectations, and if DiFi is now one of them, so be it.. but I’m not going to be the one who casts some symbolic protest vote for whatever third partyer comes along in ‘08. I’m sorry, but the party needs us to be its conscience and its voice.. not to jump ship just because its dinosaurs aren’t doing what we want them to. This time, change has to come from within.

TiredFed @ 7

anyone have the House bill # handy?

It does not have a number yet. It was introduced in the Senate on the 1st, and the House was notified of the Senate vote on the 3rd. The bill itself is written as if it will be voted upon in the House in the exact language passed in the Senate (”Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled”).

Any amendments in the House would require conference, or a revote in the Senate, if no accommodation could be made.

It’s not law yet, by any stretch, as best as I can find. When I check the “all Congressional actions” search in THOMAS, there’s no mention of House action yet.

Lahoma tells me last night that she is upset with the Democrats. This has the inevitable effect of causing me to become upset. Dems you are pushing the envelope. Do not take us for saps.

In this house we are subscribers to the notion of keeping the pressure on our party. And we intend to continue to do this.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 23

In this house we are subscribers to the notion of keeping the pressure on our party. And we intend to continue to do this.

Pressure, absolutely. Desertion, no.

Blub @ 24

Oklahoma kiddo @ 23

In this house we are subscribers to the notion of keeping the pressure on our party. And we intend to continue to do this.

Pressure, absolutely. Desertion, no.

We will do what we think is necessary. ;0)

montag @ 21

TiredFed @ 7

anyone have the House bill # handy?

It does not have a number yet. It was introduced in the Senate on the 1st, and the House was notified of the Senate vote on the 3rd. The bill itself is written as if it will be voted upon in the House in the exact language passed in the Senate (”Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled”).

Any amendments in the House would require conference, or a revote in the Senate, if no accommodation could be made.

It’s not law yet, by any stretch, as best as I can find. When I check the “all Congressional actions” search in THOMAS, there’s no mention of House action yet.

I’ll be interested in reading the specific language finally passed and signed. This POS will probably be riddled with glaringly unconstitutional provisions, just as was the Military Commissions Act (e.g., wherein it was stated the President had the final authority to interpret the meaning and applicability of the Geneva Conventions).

Oklahoma kiddo @ 25

We will do what we think is necessary. ;0)

and who is “we” here.. or are you saying that there’s a subgroup here that comprises “we”? I’m a committed Democrat. I think the party needs to change, and “we” must make it change, but that doesn’t mean that I think the answer is for some type of mysterious third party to suddenly appear on the scene.

I am completely confused as to the status of the FISA bill right now.

What exactly did they pass last night, and what are they going to do today?

Mark Fiore cartoon – Bombs w/Rice & Gates, very to the point!

BobbyG @ 26

I’ll be interested in reading the specific language finally passed and signed. This POS will probably be riddled with glaringly unconstitutional provisions, just as was the Military Commissions Act (e.g., wherein it was stated the President had the final authority to interpret the meaning and applicability of the Geneva Conventions).

It already is. Read it and weep….

What strikes me is the manner in which this was brought up. Speaks to Rove’s enduring influence. Last minute, large, and changed from bill shown earlier and negotiated in good faith. Timed on eve of August break at time when Dems supposed to be celebrating what little they have gotten done. I can’t believe so many Dems fell for it again. Aren’t there supposed to be new rules about not signing bills penned in the dark of night?

I wouldn’t be suprised if there were some retroactive allowances for past Bush/Cheney/Gonzales illegal activity put into this thing.

Things that just make all past misdeeds suddenly acceptable.

Steny Hoyer’s line is busy & mailbox may be full. Hmmm.

Vacation!

From two Dems to the Congress.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97elblDi3tY

montag @ 30

BobbyG @ 26

I’ll be interested in reading the specific language finally passed and signed. This POS will probably be riddled with glaringly unconstitutional provisions, just as was the Military Commissions Act (e.g., wherein it was stated the President had the final authority to interpret the meaning and applicability of the Geneva Conventions).

It already is. Read it and weep….

The link is expired or has moved when I tried it.

My elected representative is a fascist.

Somebody?

What exactly did they pass last night?

What are they doing re: FISA today?

rwcole @ 36

My elected representative is a fascist.

Bilbray?

LS @ 28

I am completely confused as to the status of the FISA bill right now.

What exactly did they pass last night, and what are they going to do today?

Sounds to me like the House will vote later today on what the Senate has done? But I ducked out early last night and am only catching up now.

Good morning from L.A. Already sent several faxes re: FISA cave-in. Do I dare turn on CSPAN this a.m? After watching Harry Reid congratulating himself & the Dems (for what exactly?) last night @ 11 p.m. when I came home from work, I don’t need any more discouraging tv right now.

Glad everything is going well in Chi, CHS.

http://video.google.com/videop…..3867390173

America: Freedom to Fascism

1 hour 51 minutes.

Worth the watch.

Not to push the conspiracy theorizing too far, but what if when Bush says they’ll be a ‘terrorist attack’ soon, he really means it? And everyone but us poor saps knows it?

LS @ 37

Somebody?

What exactly did they pass last night?

What are they doing re: FISA today?

Senate appears to have capitulated and passed a bill that shrub is happy with. It’s up to the House now to hold the line.. otherwise, the constitution is suspended for another six months, to paraphrase Feingold.

((((((((((rwcole @ 36))))))))))

Back when Howard Dean took his post as DNC chair I was excited as he’s about the only politician out there that makes me feel as though he’s 100% on the side of We the People. He was outspoken and determined in those early days and the faux Democrats opposed his message loudly at every turn (Biden and Lieberman come immediately to mind). The phonies won out and in my opinion Dean, while working quietly and no doubt effectively behind the scenes, has been somewhat muzzled. I hope Dean uses this YKos barnburner as a springboard back into the spotlight. He has so much to offer.

AnnieW @ 35

montag @ 30

It already is. Read it and weep….

The link is expired or has moved when I tried it.

Sorry, try this–it might be okay for a while.

If that doesn’t work, go to THOMAS and search for S.1927.ES

That’s the amended text.

fdl reader @ 39

LS @ 28

I am completely confused as to the status of the FISA bill right now.

What exactly did they pass last night, and what are they going to do today?

Sounds to me like the House will vote later today on what the Senate has done? But I ducked out early last night and am only catching up now.

I see. So, the Senate passed it, and the House has not voted on the final bill yet. That must be what’s going on.

Calling….

Blub @ 27

Oklahoma kiddo @ 25

We will do what we think is necessary. ;0)

and who is “we” here.. or are you saying that there’s a subgroup here that comprises “we”? I’m a committed Democrat. I think the party needs to change, and “we” must make it change, but that doesn’t mean that I think the answer is for some type of mysterious third party to suddenly appear on the scene.

I am speaking of my friend and myself only who live in this house. We are the ‘we’.

We are counting on the Speaker doing her very best to hold the line on this…

The Senate version sucks badly. Difi is seriously on my shitlist.

call.

Thanks Montag, the link worked for me this time.

Blub @ 43

LS @ 37

Somebody?

What exactly did they pass last night?

What are they doing re: FISA today?

Senate appears to have capitulated and passed a bill that shrub is happy with. It’s up to the House now to hold the line.. otherwise, the constitution is suspended for another six months, to paraphrase Feingold.

Is it possible that the Senate (who had a narrow margin of votes) passed it first to throw it back to the House, where the voter margin is much larger – and hopefully, with pressure, won’t pass language that satisfies Bush?

LS @ 28

I am completely confused as to the status of the FISA bill right now.

What exactly did they pass last night, and what are they going to do today?

i’m confused too. here’s some of what i just emailed to TiredFed (with links now embedded).

I think – there were two votes last night in the senate – one was on the mcconnell/bond amendment. But I haven’t seen it and I’m still waiting for them to show up here.

Just now see that Jack at balkinization has analysis (and link to text) of the bill passed last night in the senate.

Last night the house debated on the rule for a fisa bill yesterday, I think this was the “democratic bill” discussed by marty at balkinization (with link to the text).

Bottom line – it’s all very confusing to me and I could have it really wrong.

Marty and Jack have the best and quickest analysis I’ve found.

Hope that helps. If you figure it all out, please let me know!

james and some other firepups also have some good analysis in previous thread’s comments.

hopefully we’ll have TiredFed’s take in a little bit (thanks TiredFed!)

Blub

Yup!

And is it written in the Constitution that we, the people, are limited to only two political parties?

LS @ 51

Is it possible that the Senate (who had a narrow margin of votes) passed it first to throw it back to the House, where the voter margin is much larger – and hopefully, with pressure, won’t pass language that satisfies Bush?

maybe, but I think Pelosi and Hoyer need to receive lots and lots of mail between now and whenever they vote on reconciled language

OT: Well, gang, look for me on ABC in the YKos coverage. No idea when (or if) it’ll actually air, but there are plenty of media people who are latching onto almost anyone sitting with a laptop here. (And while I think I did okay in the interview, I didn’t actually write down the name of the interviewer. But their badges just said “ABC”, so I think it’s national and not local.)

The Dems caving on “expanding” FISA reminds me of them caving on the Iraq war vote and it will come back to haunt them in 2008. I’m totally disgusted with my party and have lost all faith that they have the courage to undo the lawlessness of the Bush administration. They system is corrupt and it appears it will stay that way for some time. I really am on the verge of giving up hope…

LS @ 37

What are they doing re: FISA today?

from previous thread:
selise @ 87

debate on the house floor is on the energy bills (H.R. 3221 and H.R. 2776 i think). then looks like the defense appropriations bill and then fisa.

i think?

here’s hoyer’s daily leader (warning pdf) for the items on the agenda.

looks like fisa will be later today (?).

i don’t know any more than is in the daily leader and what i see on c-span.

And they had the nerve to call it the “Protect America Act of 2007″.

rwcole @ 53

Blub

Yup!

I’m sorry… you have my sympathies. So he’s finally converted to outright fascism from being simply an annoying liar? You’d think he’d keep a low profile, since he doesn’t even bother to live in the district he purports to represent. Well, I suppose he’s still better than the nutjob in CA-52, I hope.

I’m a committed Democrat. I think the party needs to change, and “we” must make it change, but that doesn’t mean that I think the answer is for some type of mysterious third party to suddenly appear on the scene.

This sounds like what I’ve been saying for a few years, but even to me it’s getting pretty depressing.

How do we motivate the people who don’t bother to vote, who in some cases are not apathetic but instead are discouraged, that it’s important to support our candidate.

Or worse, look at my Senator, Feinstein. She’s completely SAFE, yet she votes this way, without taking the time to analyze it. She will probably be challenged and damaged(deservedly) in the CA primary, and it hurts to think by default that a R might take the seat if this happens.

How come we have to keep choosing the lesser of two evils? It makes me furious.

The US is unlikely to ever have a viable third party- our seats are not allocated on the basis of votes as they are in other countries- where a party who gets five percent of the votes takes five percent of the seats. Even ten or twenty percent equals zero here- so those voting third party might as well just piss em away.

Just got done watching YK2 panel with Gary Trauner & others, netroots folks who almost made it last election & who are running again in 08. Gary has choice of 3 seats in WY, as I believe both senate seats are up (one to fill out term of guy who died in office), as well as house seat. Got to know Gary a little by email as he turns out to be a high school classmate of a friend of mine.

Sent him the following email, as an indication that we follow these folks after they get into office & don’t like being jilted:

Best of luck. I’ll keep up with your campaign as best I can.

My site of choice is firedoglake. Everyone there this morning is extremely depressed & outraged at the Ds caving in to W on FISA. Don’t know what your position is on that subject, but hopefully more new blood on the D side will add a little courage. Very discouraging that in the senate, netroots folks like Webb, McCaskill, Klobuchar voted for the imperial prez. Feels like date rape, if you’ll excuse the analogy.

FYI:

Pelosi number is “office closed” and voice mail unable to take messages.

ok, so far it looks like s.1927 is McConnell’s bill (it was referred to as an amendment, but it’s really a new bill). introduced in the Senate on 8/1. passed the Senate on 8/2. referred to the House on 8/3. so the bill is s.1927. If rules don’t permit amendments (oh, there will have to be a rule passed on how to deal with this bill), it’s an up or down vote. it has to be passed by simple majority only. then it goes to Prez for signature.

note: gonna stay down here for a while to discuss.

Yep. Good idea. Continue supporting the Opposition Party that isn’t.

They make enough noise to keep you interested then do nothing or worse. They are laughing at you.

TiredFed @ 66

ok, so far it looks like s.1927 is McConnell’s bill (it was referred to as an amendment, but it’s really a new bill). introduced in the Senate on 8/1. passed the Senate on 8/2. referred to the House on 8/3. so the bill is s.1927. If rules don’t permit amendments (oh, there will have to be a rule passed on how to deal with this bill), it’s an up or down vote. it has to be passed by simple majority only. then it goes to Prez for signature.

note: gonna stay down here for a while to discuss.

Or fail by a simple majority…easier for that to happen in the House.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 54

And is it written in the Constitution that we, the people, are limited to only two political parties?

No, officially the founders hoped there wouldn’t be political parties. But as Barney Frank put it in his speech about partisanship, they spent the early years of the country decrying political parties with one hand and working to form them with the other.

Based on history, the fact that we consistently have two major parties seems to be a consequence of our winner-take-all election system and our non-parliamentary system (head of government elected directly rather than by who can form a majority coalition.) That’s why I’m not much interested in working for a third-party, and will keep working to fix the Democratic Party. Unless the GOP actually crumbles or becomes a marginal regional party, I don’t think a progressive third party can become strong except at the expense of the Dems. As long as we have a viable authoritarian Republican Party, I don’t think we can afford to risk that.

What’s eveyone’s best guess as to when the FISA bill will be debated? Having company outside but may be able to sneak in a bit.

albert fall @ 5

“Al Qaeda is not going on vacation this month,” said Sen. Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

Got a copy of the Al Qaeda employee handbook, did you?

He sure did! Him and Rupert Murdoch, who’s a cell leader.

Patty Morlan @ 59

And they had the nerve to call it the “Protect America Act of 2007″.

Anything with language like that (Patriot Act, Clear Skies Act) always makes me suspicious.

Very discouraging that in the senate, netroots folks like Webb, McCaskill, Klobuchar voted for the imperial prez.

I feel played, too. I agree with Feingold on saying that we’ve just suspended the Constitution for 6 months.

No wonder he doesn’t support impeachment, he KNOWS how freaking spineless his fellow Dems are on issues that shouldn’t even be controversial.

solai @ 69

What’s eveyone’s best guess as to when the FISA bill will be debated? Having company outside but may be able to sneak in a bit.

There are several different ones being debated. Just talked to a House staffer — the one Bush wants (which gives AGAG oversight) is the one least likely to go anywhere.

Keep the calls coming! The guy manning the phones for our CD was shocked at the number of calls he was getting.

My site of choice is firedoglake. Everyone there this morning is extremely depressed & outraged at the Ds caving in to W on FISA. Don’t know what your position is on that subject, but hopefully more new blood on the D side will add a little courage. Very discouraging that in the senate, netroots folks like Webb, McCaskill, Klobuchar voted for the imperial prez. Feels like date rape, if you’ll excuse the analogy.

I am disappointed but not surprised by Webb and McCaskill’s votes; but Klobuchar? Does anyone have any insight about her vote?

The significance of this measure seems to be that it gives the NSA the right to tap into all land-based communications systems within the U.S., because each of them might from time to time be involved in a foreign-to-foreign phone call. And, if a foreign-to-foreign call is going down a given fiber, the only thing to do is to install a splitter (i.e., tap) and send a copy of that bit stream to NSA equipment for analysis to split out those foreign-to-foreign calls.

Would they analyze the rest of the bits going over that fiber? Well of course you have to look at each and every bit to determine which are involved in foreign-to-foreign calls. And, it’s better to be safe than sorry.

In short, Big Brother has gained a legal reason to have access to every bit, but not to reassemble every bit into a phone conversation and listen to it. Hmmmmm

LS @ 67

TiredFed @ 66

ok, so far it looks like s.1927 is McConnell’s bill (it was referred to as an amendment, but it’s really a new bill). introduced in the Senate on 8/1. passed the Senate on 8/2. referred to the House on 8/3. so the bill is s.1927. If rules don’t permit amendments (oh, there will have to be a rule passed on how to deal with this bill), it’s an up or down vote. it has to be passed by simple majority only. then it goes to Prez for signature.

note: gonna stay down here for a while to discuss.

Or fail by a simple majority…easier for that to happen in the House.

exactly. perhaps that is the Dem strategy. getting to vote “for” protecting America in the Senate. could help some in close Senate races – I still don’t get Mikulski’s “yes” vote.

Phoenix Woman @ 74

solai @ 69

What’s eveyone’s best guess as to when the FISA bill will be debated? Having company outside but may be able to sneak in a bit.

There are several different ones being debated. Just talked to a House staffer — the one Bush wants (which gives AGAG oversight) is the one least likely to go anywhere.

Keep the calls coming! The guy manning the phones for our CD was shocked at the number of calls he was getting.

Thanks!! I’m feeling slightly better. Get the Bush one out of the way…then vote on Pelosi’s language, which if passed most likely will not pass the Senate or be signed by Bush…or will it.

AnnieW @ 61

Or worse, look at my Senator, Feinstein. She’s completely SAFE, yet she votes this way, without taking the time to analyze it.

DiFi has been pissing people off for what, 35 years now? Since before she was mayor.

oh, speaking of Congresscritters, I think mine (Davis CA-53) has a war poll up on her site, concerning withdrawal and defunding. Any San Diegans may want to vote in it.

http://www.house.gov/susandavis/index.shtml

quickpoll, left panel

AnnieW @ 61

I’m a committed Democrat. I think the party needs to change, and “we” must make it change, but that doesn’t mean that I think the answer is for some type of mysterious third party to suddenly appear on the scene.

This sounds like what I’ve been saying for a few years, but even to me it’s getting pretty depressing.

How do we motivate the people who don’t bother to vote, who in some cases are not apathetic but instead are discouraged, that it’s important to support our candidate.

Or worse, look at my Senator, Feinstein. She’s completely SAFE, yet she votes this way, without taking the time to analyze it. She will probably be challenged and damaged(deservedly) in the CA primary, and it hurts to think by default that a R might take the seat if this happens.

How come we have to keep choosing the lesser of two evils? It makes me furious.

You know in some professions (museum curators) there are regulations about what one’s family can do in terms of conflict of interest (One can’t collect in the field that one is a curator of). I would love to see a bill that does not allow legislators to vote on a bill in which their direct family members lobby or earn above a certain amount of money -say $50,000 a year (heads up Lieberlier on big pharma). Then people back home can see how many times they take the 5th so to speak on this, and can respond accordingly in the next elections.

getting to vote “for” protecting America in the Senate. could help some in close Senate races

How does this explain Feinstein?

Was it 2000 when “conversation” became a dirty word? I.E. pretending to talk with people instead of at them? I refer to a very famous “listening” campaign.

Those drudgies at politco.com blames the computers of congress kritters. Could it be Rovian sabotage? No, that would be wrong, to always blame Karl. It is scary though that Congress does not have a backup for voting. For instance pen and paper!
____________________
The House electronic voting system malfunctioned at approximately 2 p.m. as lawmakers began a vote on a procedural motion sponsored by Rep. Heather Wilson (R-N.M.). Projectors that usually display how each member voted and show a tally of votes were not working, although votes were still being recorded on computers at various locations in the House chamber.

The mishap came during the final two days of legislative activity before a month-long recess, a time when tensions run high as lawmakers grind out last-minute agreements on a bevy of bills. Many lawmakers were already agitated from a rancorous episode last night when Rep. Michael R. McNulty (D-N.Y.) gaveled closed a vote before the tally was clear. McNulty apologized to his colleagues this morning.

The broken computers prompted protracted squabbles among lawmakers Friday afternoon. Rep. David Dreier (R-Calif.) questioned how they could vote if they were unable to see the usual tally. Lawmakers are accustomed to seeing how their colleagues are voting while they mull their own decision.

House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) said he had consulted with a House technical expert who advised that the system be taken down for 30 minutes to fix the problem. He suggested vacating the vote and revoting once the system was fixed. Dreier and Rep. Pete Sessions (R-Texas) would not agree to this plan.

Redshift @ 68

Oklahoma kiddo @ 54

And is it written in the Constitution that we, the people, are limited to only two political parties?

No, officially the founders hoped there wouldn’t be political parties. But as Barney Frank put it in his speech about partisanship, they spent the early years of the country decrying political parties with one hand and working to form them with the other.

Based on history, the fact that we consistently have two major parties seems to be a consequence of our winner-take-all election system and our non-parliamentary system (head of government elected directly rather than by who can form a majority coalition.) That’s why I’m not much interested in working for a third-party, and will keep working to fix the Democratic Party. Unless the GOP actually crumbles or becomes a marginal regional party, I don’t think a progressive third party can become strong except at the expense of the Dems. As long as we have a viable authoritarian Republican Party, I don’t think we can afford to risk that.

Seems to me that if entrenched dem leaders know they’ve got the progressive vote no matter what, they’ve got every incentive not to change…not to serve the country better.

I would have no reservations about supporting a third party- if it had a chance in hell of winning- but that ain’t a gonna happen. More likely that one of the two major parties craters and is replaced by something else- or that there is a major fault in the current political divide and the eggs are rescrambled along different lines between the two major parties. ( for example- libertarians combine with “progressives” in a modified version of “keep yer fuckin church an yer fuckin govt. out of my face”.

selise asked me:

I’ve been trying to check too. Agree on the bill

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/…..01927:@@@S

But, the question I have is on the house rule. Did the rule pass last night?
Or is there still that to do?

http://www.rules.house.gov/comm_schedule110.htm

And will the “democratic” version be voted on by the house too? Or just
s.1927?

my response:
Unless there is a standing rule, one will have to be voted on (first in the Rules committee). The rule probably could not have been voted on last night, since the Senate did not refer the bill until late last night – I believe the House adjourned while the Senate was voting on this.

The democratic version failed to pass the House last night (lost by about 10 or 11 votes IIRC).

So, this is the only FISA bill on the agenda for today AFAIK.

Jay @ 45

Back when Howard Dean took his post as DNC chair I was excited as he’s about the only politician out there that makes me feel as though he’s 100% on the side of We the People. He was outspoken and determined in those early days and the faux Democrats opposed his message loudly at every turn (Biden and Lieberman come immediately to mind). The phonies won out and in my opinion Dean, while working quietly and no doubt effectively behind the scenes, has been somewhat muzzled. I hope Dean uses this YKos barnburner as a springboard back into the spotlight. He has so much to offer.

Dean had the place rocking and it depressed me thoroughly because of what we lost. Had the press not poisoned his bid for the White House this would still be our country. As it now, I don’t know if we will ever recover. It was excruciatingly wonderful to have him with us.

AnnieW @ 81

getting to vote “for” protecting America in the Senate. could help some in close Senate races

How does this explain Feinstein?

Can anything explain DiFi? What a total disappointment.

GordonM @ 78

AnnieW @ 61

Or worse, look at my Senator, Feinstein. She’s completely SAFE, yet she votes this way, without taking the time to analyze it.

DiFi has been pissing people off for what, 35 years now? Since before she was mayor.

Lieberman was the same way, and he got his ass handed to him. Then we got ours handed to him by his eventual “victory”.

Maybe the wrong lesson was learned.

BlueStateRedHead @ 64

FYI:

Pelosi number is “office closed” and voice mail unable to take messages.

Try the third one down and talk to your own rep. Tell ‘em to pass the message on to Pelosi — and that a lot of people are talking “primary challengers” (that will scare them more than third party talk will).

As long as politicians and parties spend more time and energy raising money for the next race and coporations provide the majority of it, we will never have a government “of the people”.
The development of the “career politician” has also perverted the process. There should be term limits for every position.
And please, don’t tell me about all the expertise we’d be losing-the sorry state of our government belies that…

Redshift @ 68

Based on history, the fact that we consistently have two major parties seems to be a consequence of our winner-take-all election system and our non-parliamentary system…

Yeah. At times of political realignments (and we’re in one right now) sometimes 3rd parties get some numbers until one of the majors repositions themselves to pick up the coalition of interests. Unfortunately, that normally means that the other party wins in the meantime.

The outcome I hope for:
– the wingnuts and GOP split
– the Blue Dog / DLC / Difi Dems join the new “moderate” GOP
– progressives take over the Dems

Renee in Ohio @ 14

I’ve transcribed a little under half of Howard Dean’s keynote address here.

Will do more later. (Maybe.)

{{{{{Renee}}}}}: HUGE THANKS!

rwcole @ 85

I would have no reservations about supporting a third party- if it had a chance in hell of winning- but that ain’t a gonna happen.

I absolutely agree.. this doesn’t meant that there won’t be successful independent candidates, perhaps even for president, but there won’t be a third national party anytime soon, this side of the revolution, that is. This being said, I can see the rethugs renaming or otherwise rebranding themselves after a virtual electoral shut-out in ‘08 (OK.. kinda dreamin’ here)… but whatever replaces it will simply be the same wolf in new clothing, probably even worse.

called and left a message at Elijah Cummings DC office and sent an email. No one answering phones on Saturday.

Phoenix Woman @ 90

BlueStateRedHead @ 64

FYI:

Pelosi number is “office closed” and voice mail unable to take messages.

Try the third one down and talk to your own rep. Tell ‘em to pass the message on to Pelosi — and that a lot of people are talking “primary challengers” (that will scare them more than third party talk will).

nananananana don’t take that sitting down…

Have you gone to House of Reps list, then in through “Leadership” link? Try this ‘un ;->

http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

Nice to know that Dino Fino is getting some attention in the blogs. She’s been on my shit list (I refuse to cast a vote for her every election her name is on the ballot) for many years. She is very, very consistent when she votes for her corporate friends…

This vote probably went to AT&T…Cali does have Silicon Valley, so I’m guessing she’s going to profit from the deal somehow.

A few years ago, I recommended we try to remove her. Plenty of people said it would never happen, that she’s entrenched. I still think we could get some movement there. Ned Lamont put up a good fight…

Goopers would have a tough time re-branding.. Their internal tension is between the libertarian segment of the party and the Christian Right- these two pieces are oil and water- they CANNOT mix–but the goopers need both parts to make a competitive whole..

Dems, on the other hand, could modify their agenda enough to pull in the libertarians if it comes down to that- and have an overwhelming majority.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 25

I’m a committed Democrat. I think the party needs to change, and “we” must make it change, but that doesn’t mean that I think the answer is for some type of mysterious third party to suddenly appear on the scene.

And how has that worked out for us?

This idiotic “stickin’ with the Party” strategy has rewarded us with nothing but a steady downward spiral.

GordonM @ 92

- the wingnuts and GOP split
– the Blue Dog / DLC / Difi Dems join the new “moderate” GOP
– progressives take over the Dems

The problem I have with this, is that the wingnuts are, for all intents and purpsoes, the GOP today. There may not be enough to split away.

Similarly, I don’t think the Blue Dog/DLC types are going to switch parties anytime soon (’cept for a certain rethug in Connecticut). Progressive acivists just have to gradually retire them/replace them with new blood.

Demographic inevitability means that a progressive takeover will probably happen… I just hope we don’t have to wait for the college class of ‘20 to reach voting age, before that happens.

Phoenix Woman @ 90
Tell ‘em to pass the message on to Pelosi — and that a lot of people are talking “primary challengers” (that will scare them more than third party talk will).

Thanks PW for the update and the hope: “primary challengers” is our only solid recourse if they don’t listen. I am somewhat comforted that this idea can get through to them.

‘Cause what the hell are we supposed to do?

selise

ygm

fdl reader @ 101

Phoenix Woman @ 90
Tell ‘em to pass the message on to Pelosi — and that a lot of people are talking “primary challengers” (that will scare them more than third party talk will).

Thanks PW for the update and the hope: “primary challengers” is our only solid recourse if they don’t listen. I am somewhat comforted that this idea can get through to them.

‘Cause what the hell are we supposed to do?

tell Pelosi directly, also…
methingks triangulating is always more effective…

http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

The vote in the senate last night totally disgusts me- it’s nauseating..

Of course the worst part about it is the policy implications- spyin on americans without a warrant has just become legal (oh yeah- we know- it’s only foreign to foreign calls- but it may be americans makin those calls)

But the political implications are also incredible and stupid..Dems are helping to shore up the power of a lame duck president- first by carrying his water on immigration and now this..Why do the dems want to return power to George W. Bush? They’re makin him look like God.

So, since they voted down Pelosi’s language in the house last night, if they vote down McConnell’s language in the House today (hopefully). Where will FISA stand? Will it mean that the 1978 law is in effect and Bush is operating illegally. That would be the best scenario, it seems.

Marty Lederman links to the Senate (i.e. White House) bill here.

He includes this profile in courage:

“I’m not thrilled,” said Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo. “There are some changes we need to make to make sure that American citizens are protected. But it’s a lot better than a lot of things that have been forced down this Congress’ throat right before recesses that trampled on American’s liberties.“

The bill bends everyone to the administration’s will:

(1) FISA court. As ML reports, the FISA court would have to rethink its rejection of the spy program, only this time under a deferential “clearly erroneous” review standard. A sop is that “Mr. DNI” would look over Gonzo’s shoulder. Cold comfort.

(2) Telecoms. Telecom holdouts must obey Bush going forward. (No immunity of complicit telecoms for past acts. Another sop.)

(3) Congress. Congress would be as in the dark about how the program works as it is now, so its decision (in 6 months) whether to extend will be as ill-informed as this one.

The “ayes” deserve a toga and a peeled grape, Claire McCaskill a flag with a rattlesnake over the motto: “Be Gentle.”

RevDeb @ 87

Jay @ 45

Back when Howard Dean took his post as DNC chair I was excited as he’s about the only politician out there that makes me feel as though he’s 100% on the side of We the People. He was outspoken and determined in those early days and the faux Democrats opposed his message loudly at every turn (Biden and Lieberman come immediately to mind). The phonies won out and in my opinion Dean, while working quietly and no doubt effectively behind the scenes, has been somewhat muzzled. I hope Dean uses this YKos barnburner as a springboard back into the spotlight. He has so much to offer.

Dean had the place rocking and it depressed me thoroughly because of what we lost. Had the press not poisoned his bid for the White House this would still be our country. As it now, I don’t know if we will ever recover. It was excruciatingly wonderful to have him with us.

I read somewhere on the web that Kerry had a hand in this.

rwcole @ 98

Goopers would have a tough time re-branding.. Their internal tension is between the libertarian segment of the party and the Christian Right- these two pieces are oil and water- they CANNOT mix–but the goopers need both parts to make a competitive whole..

Dems, on the other hand, could modify their agenda enough to pull in the libertarians if it comes down to that- and have an overwhelming majority.

There’s a third (and very important) strand – the Wall Street Republicans. They are very close to the DLC Dems in many ways; they’re neither libertarian nor wingnuts.

And be aware that the current 54% Dem numbers is because we have absorbed many libertarians & Wall Streeters. As soon as Bush is out of the way, the Dem coalition will shatter. The media will certainly favor the Dems being taken over by the DLC / Wall Streeters.

“That’s why I’m not much interested in working for a third-party, and will keep working to fix the Democratic Party.”

I have voted the straight Democratic ticket for 39 years. And here’s what I see. Hillary and Obama. But thanks for the lecture.

Looks as if Clusterfuck told em all the killings he’s stopped with his spyin and shared some info from his best bud Binny that there were attacks on the way and that anyone who didn’t vote to give him power would have blood on their hands when Binny comes- and the dems swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Just sent e-mails to Pelosi and Waxman to not cave to Bush.

Gordon

I think that dems have had a registration advantage for some years- (with perhaps a short deficit right after 9/11). The trouble for dems is always getting a majority of the independant vote and getting their own to show up on election day..

Indies are about a third of voters now.

THIS LINK WORKS to Speaker’s e-mail. Start filling it up pups! I just sent my 2cts.

http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

I sent a testy note to Barbara Mikulski. I just don’t get why she voted yes. Maybe DiFi and Mary Landrieu convinced her to vote yes? Hillary definitely voted no. Blanche Lincoln voted yes, too. Something is fishy here (not rotten, just fishy). Could be they are counting on the House to kill it. Gosh, let’s hope they do.

rwcole @ 104

The vote in the senate last night totally disgusts me- it’s nauseating..

Of course the worst part about it is the policy implications- spyin on americans without a warrant has just become legal (oh yeah- we know- it’s only foreign to foreign calls- but it may be americans makin those calls)

But the political implications are also incredible and stupid..Dems are helping to shore up the power of a lame duck president- first by carrying his water on immigration and now this..Why do the dems want to return power to George W. Bush? They’re makin him look like God.

As I read the senate bill, FISA can be skirted if JUST ONE of the parties to the call is reasonably believed to be outside the U.S.

Dems could adopt a balanced budget plank- goopers have displayed theirs for years while totally ignoring it. It’s brand new- never been used.

Those that say we must be confined to two parties are just what this nation needs, and has. ‘Non-risk takers’. Except when it comes to inappropriate wars, of course.

GordonM @ 108

Wall Street republicans

Financially, you’re right, I agree. But the financial power of this clique doesn’t translate into voting power… just fundraising power. They don’t have the numbers or the populism necessary to actually become a party, and they can only lead a party with support from the rethug/wingnut theocon base… the same argument goes for any subfaction of this group that has aligned with us.

We could still see a fight about recalling congress.. What if congress doesn’t show up- will Clusterfuck arrest em?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 109

“That’s why I’m not much interested in working for a third-party, and will keep working to fix the Democratic Party.”

I have voted the straight Democratic ticket for 39 years. And here’s what I see. Hillary and Obama. But thanks for the lecture.

I’m solidly with you on that OKK! 3rd party will ONLY produce a WHOLE lotta steam, and a split vote agnst solid repugs. We work HARD to fix what we have. Period. Last I looked, there are some very very good people who are Dems, ahem. Build on that number, and we’ll win.

Too many dems either believe Clusterfuck on the security issue or are too chickenshit to fight him on it…

rwcole @ 119

We could still see a fight about recalling congress.. What if congress doesn’t show up- will Clusterfuck arrest em?

House and Senate are considered “federal” offices and even if a state has recall provisions, the recall does not apply to federal offices. Recall would have to be amended into the Constitution and won’t happen. Unless youu mean to have tjem recalled into session and I’m actually all for that. Keep ‘em in DC so chimpy cna’t do as much mischief.

Do I have this right?
-The Senate is still in session waiting for the House to act.
-Then once the House passes something it gets hammered out by the leaders to ‘mesh’ the 2 versions.
-Then both the House and Senate will vote again on final compromise bill.

Is that right? Or do I need further lessons?

dakine01 @ 122

House and Senate are considered “federal” offices and even if a state has recall provisions, the recall does not apply to federal offices. Recall would have to be amended into the Constitution and won’t happen.

I think RW is referring here to an attempt by shrub to cancel the break and force Congress to stay on the Hill until they capitulate to his FISA idiocy.

When we say “Wall Street” are we talkin about people who work on the street- or people who TRADE on the street?

Dems have a fair percentage of the votes of well to do people- would be interesting to know how many millionaires vote dem- might be surprising.

rwcole @ 112

Indies are about a third of voters now.

Not anymore. GOP registration is down around 5 pts, Indie regs are down about 15.

So everyone between progressive to Eisenhower Republican is now registered or leaning Dem. As soon as we win, it won’t last because each group will claim the success as theirs, and move to take over the party.

The GOP coalition is already busted (just not in Congress, dammit).

By 2010 it will be utter madness.

dakine

Yes I meant recalled into session. Apparently it hasn’t happened since 1948 when Truman did it..would be interesting if congress ignored the call.

Blub @ 124

dakine01 @ 122

House and Senate are considered “federal” offices and even if a state has recall provisions, the recall does not apply to federal offices. Recall would have to be amended into the Constitution and won’t happen.

I think RW is referring here to an attempt by shrub to cancel the break and force Congress to stay on the Hill until they capitulate to his FISA idiocy.

I realized that and edited my original to reflect that maybe that would be a good thing. Keep ‘em in session, stops the Rs from fundraising and stops Chimp from recess apptments amongst other things

solai @ 123

Do I have this right?
-The Senate is still in session waiting for the House to act.
-Then once the House passes something it gets hammered out by the leaders to ‘mesh’ the 2 versions.
-Then both the House and Senate will vote again on final compromise bill.

Is that right? Or do I need further lessons?

not the way I see it. The Senate-passed version (S. 1927) was referred to the House. The House will have to pass a rule to deal with the bill, as it has never seen it before. Then the House votes on it (and amendments may or may not be allowed). If amendments are added, the bill would have to be conferenced by House and Senate, then passed again by both Houses. If no amendments, it goes straight to the Prez if the House passes by simple majority.

GordonM @ 126

By 2010 it will be utter madness.

I’m counting on it.. and once the Streeters complete their desertion, they won’t be able to fundraise either.. they’re already starting to face this dilemma today. I just hope we don’t end up with MORE blue dog types as a result of the impending rethug implosion.

rwcole @ 127

dakine

Yes I meant recalled into session. Apparently it hasn’t happened since 1948 when Truman did it..would be interesting if congress ignored the call.

well, they can’t ignore it, but they can sit on their hands if they want.

Thank you TF for the explanation.

Adie @ 114

THIS LINK WORKS to Speaker’s e-mail. Start filling it up pups! I just sent my 2cts.

http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

I sent mine, and I told her to make sure Democrats refrain from referring to the United States of America as “The Homeland”, because it is offensive and reminiscent of Germany in the 1930’s.

found the house vote from last night – here.

218(y) to 207(n)

needed 2/3 to pass w/o a rule.

i think.

if that is so, then why was there no rule? what happened with the rule process? what will be the rule process today?

this is so obsure to me.

rwcole @ 127

dakine

Yes I meant recalled into session. Apparently it hasn’t happened since 1948 when Truman did it..would be interesting if congress ignored the call.

Or used the time to arrest and try the Miers-Rove-Bolton contemnor triumvirate in camera… a boy can dream can’t he?

TiredFed @ 129

solai @ 123

Do I have this right?
-The Senate is still in session waiting for the House to act.
-Then once the House passes something it gets hammered out by the leaders to ‘mesh’ the 2 versions.

So the key is for the House is to add an amendment.
-Then both the House and Senate will vote again on final compromise bill.

Is that right? Or do I need further lessons?

not the way I see it. The Senate-passed version (S. 1927) was referred to the House. The House will have to pass a rule to deal with the bill, as it has never seen it before. Then the House votes on it (and amendments may or may not be allowed). If amendments are added, the bill would have to be conferenced by House and Senate, then passed again by both Houses. If no amendments, it goes straight to the Prez if the House passes by simple majority.

Blub @ 118

GordonM @ 108

Wall Street republicans

Financially, you’re right, I agree. But the financial power of this clique doesn’t translate into voting power… just fundraising power. They don’t have the numbers or the populism necessary to actually become a party, and they can only lead a party with support from the rethug/wingnut theocon base… the same argument goes for any subfaction of this group that has aligned with us.

Not exactly. The leaders of the GOP have built a fragile coalition of Wall Street, libertarians and theocons, but the leaders aren’t Wall Streeters.
The danger I’m pointing out is that they are very close ideologically to the DLC types. If they join, they’ve got tons of money and all the media.

TiredFed @ 131

rwcole @ 127

dakine

Yes I meant recalled into session. Apparently it hasn’t happened since 1948 when Truman did it..would be interesting if congress ignored the call.

well, they can’t ignore it, but they can sit on their hands if they want.

Kinda like what the Dems in the Kentucky House did last month – the corrupt R Governor called a special session to advance his re-election bid. The senate (R controlled) took him up on it – the House (D controlled) met and immediately adjourned. P*ss’d the Gov off so he called six week cooling off but the House vows to do the same thing as they see no need for special session to pass more tax breaks and sh*t.

Adie @ 120

Oklahoma kiddo @ 109

“That’s why I’m not much interested in working for a third-party, and will keep working to fix the Democratic Party.”

I have voted the straight Democratic ticket for 39 years. And here’s what I see. Hillary and Obama. But thanks for the lecture.

I’m solidly with you on that OKK! 3rd party will ONLY produce a WHOLE lotta steam, and a split vote agnst solid repugs. We work HARD to fix what we have. Period. Last I looked, there are some very very good people who are Dems, ahem. Build on that number, and we’ll win.

I agree, but I was trying to think of our best Dems and all I can think of right now are Barney Frank and Kucinich.

There is much hypocrisy evident in the grandstanding and the bombastic speeches (supporting Democratic principles like our civil rights) and then voting against their own rhetoric hoping we don’t notice.

If Pelosi can hold the Dems together, I think Bush’s spying program will be caught in illegal limbo, which is right where it should be.

selise @ 133

found the house vote from last night – here.

218(y) to 207(n)

needed 2/3 to pass w/o a rule.

i think.

if that is so, then why was there no rule? what happened with the rule process? what will be the rule process today?

this is so obsure to me.

good question, what happened to the rule process. same thing will probably apply to the FISA bill the Senate passed last night. If no rule, need 2/3 majority. That just ain’t gonna happen (x^x) – fingers crossed.

Fed

“Can’t ignore it”

Well maybe in the end they can’t- but why not have a roomfull of lawyers wargame the thing before jumping to that conclusion–What would the president do if we refuse to come back- what options would we have to support our refusal- is there a way that we could get a win out of this?”

It sometimes seems as if the goopers are willing to explore alternatives that the dems reject out of hand- and that they win more often because of it.

solai @ 123

Do I have this right?
-The Senate is still in session waiting for the House to act.
-Then once the House passes something it gets hammered out by the leaders to ‘mesh’ the 2 versions.
-Then both the House and Senate will vote again on final compromise bill.

Is that right? Or do I need further lessons?

I think so, unless the House passes the same language the Senate passed.

Forced to log off. Will check in later.

hackworth @ 139

Adie @ 120

I’m solidly with you on that OKK! 3rd party will ONLY produce a WHOLE lotta steam, and a split vote agnst solid repugs. We work HARD to fix what we have. Period. Last I looked, there are some very very good people who are Dems, ahem. Build on that number, and we’ll win.

I agree, but I was trying to think of our best Dems and all I can think of right now are Barney Frank and Kucinich.

There is much hypocrisy evident in the grandstanding and the bombastic speeches (supporting Democratic principles like our civil rights) and then voting against their own rhetoric hoping we don’t notice.

I wouldn’t mind starting a right wing Christianist party. hehe

Sounds like all the house Dems need to do is add an amendment-but then they will open themselves up to accusation that they are not atuned to security risks. My guess is that Pelosi buckles, by getting them to agree to the Senate bill.

If the Dems trust the DNI, we are toast, because that is the “oversight” in the Senate bill. If they insist on Pelosi’s oversight language, Bush will never sign it.

Catch-22.

If the house and the senate both give Clusterfuck what he’s demanding and allow him to declare victory, they should be forced to wear bags over their heads for the rest of their congressional careers.

TiredFed @ 129

solai @ 123

Do I have this right?
-The Senate is still in session waiting for the House to act.
-Then once the House passes something it gets hammered out by the leaders to ‘mesh’ the 2 versions.
-Then both the House and Senate will vote again on final compromise bill.

Is that right? Or do I need further lessons?

not the way I see it. The Senate-passed version (S. 1927) was referred to the House. The House will have to pass a rule to deal with the bill, as it has never seen it before. Then the House votes on it (and amendments may or may not be allowed). If amendments are added, the bill would have to be conferenced by House and Senate, then passed again by both Houses. If no amendments, it goes straight to the Prez if the House passes by simple majority.

why wouldn’t this version be handled in the same way as last night’s?

i think they submitted that one to a vote and suspension of the rule – which then requires 2/3 vote to pass. surely the house could pull together 1/3 of the votes to block?

or maybe i still don’t understand?

rwcole @ 142

Fed

“Can’t ignore it”

Well maybe in the end they can’t- but why not have a roomfull of lawyers wargame the thing before jumping to that conclusion–What would the president do if we refuse to come back- what options would we have to support our refusal- is there a way that we could get a win out of this?”

It sometimes seems as if the goopers are willing to explore alternatives that the dems reject out of hand- and that they win more often because of it.

too bad that roomfull is in Chicago, eh? I completely agree and did not intend to stifle debate. would love to hear John Dean’s or Jonathan Turley’s take on the subject. I love old-time political gamesmanship. take a peek at my take on inherent contempt (an oldie but goodie recently resurrected by CRS). just click on my handle.

TiredFed @ 145

hackworth @ 139

I wouldn’t mind starting a right wing Christianist party. hehe

George Wallace tried a version of this. Got him shot, though.

Pelosi was very firm on the AG language yesterday. I don’t see her caving on that, but then who knows anymore.

The outcome of this vote, will tell us exactly where we are. It will be a watershed moment.

rules in house and senate are VERY different- Senate has the fillibuster- house does not. I don’t understand either very well but can’t compare the two.

TiredFed @ 141

selise @ 133

found the house vote from last night – here.

218(y) to 207(n)

needed 2/3 to pass w/o a rule.

i think.

if that is so, then why was there no rule? what happened with the rule process? what will be the rule process today?

this is so obsure to me.

good question, what happened to the rule process. same thing will probably apply to the FISA bill the Senate passed last night. If no rule, need 2/3 majority. That just ain’t gonna happen (x^x) – fingers crossed.

I don’t understand all the rules, but I think the dems wanted to pass this one last night because it was the compromise worked out with the DNI which the R’s and Bush rejected. It gives them cover that they DID pass FISA legislation … or tried to?

I hate Kabuki.

rwcole @ 148

If the house and the senate both give Clusterfuck what he’s demanding and allow him to declare victory, they should be forced to wear bags over their heads for the rest of their congressional careers.

… and the the 111th Congress shall hereafter be referred to in history as the Baghead Congress

Bush PRAISED the senate dems for their vote last night—PUKE!!

selise @ 149

TiredFed @ 129

not the way I see it. The Senate-passed version (S. 1927) was referred to the House. The House will have to pass a rule to deal with the bill, as it has never seen it before. Then the House votes on it (and amendments may or may not be allowed). If amendments are added, the bill would have to be conferenced by House and Senate, then passed again by both Houses. If no amendments, it goes straight to the Prez if the House passes by simple majority.

why wouldn’t this version be handled in the same way as last night’s?

i think they submitted that one to a vote and suspension of the rule – which then requires 2/3 vote to pass. surely the house could pull together 1/3 of the votes to block?

or maybe i still don’t understand?

haha. did I answer this already? I forget. I have no doubt that the House will not muster a 2/3rds majority vote for this bill. But I have been wrong before and I’m just not getting the backstory here – for example, why would Barbara Mikulski vote in favor of it? She’s on the Senate Intel Committee. Somethings up.

If yer a dem and Clusterfuck stands up and praises you- you should feel deeply and profoundly humiliated.

rwcole @ 156

Bush PRAISED the senate dems for their vote last night—PUKE!!

yep.. and our letters need to point out that such a glowing personal endorsement by shrub WILL be remembered by the voters

rwcole @ 153

rules in house and senate are VERY different- Senate has the fillibuster- house does not. I don’t understand either very well but can’t compare the two.

but have you ever head of this 2/3 requirement when rules are suspended? I hadn’t until now. 2/3rds in the House is for overriding vetoes. very interesting.

TiredFed @ 158

selise @ 149

why wouldn’t this version be handled in the same way as last night’s?

i think they submitted that one to a vote and suspension of the rule – which then requires 2/3 vote to pass. surely the house could pull together 1/3 of the votes to block?

or maybe i still don’t understand?

haha. did I answer this already? I forget. I have no doubt that the House will not muster a 2/3rds majority vote for this bill. But I have been wrong before and I’m just not getting the backstory here – for example, why would Barbara Mikulski vote in favor of it? She’s on the Senate Intel Committee. Somethings up.

Because it threw the vote to the House. If it is voted down in the House. It is history. Then, if they vote down Pelosi’s bill…check.

rwcole @ 156

Bush PRAISED the senate dems for their vote last night—PUKE!!

Bush said, “I want you to jump, and I want you to jump right now.” And the senators couldn’t get their feet of the ground fast enough. Damn, they jumped quickly.

But Bush said, “That’s not high enough to suit my DIN.” So they jumped again but more vigorously.” And Bush smiled, and turned to the representatives and said, “Now it’s your turn.”

Fed

Dems see a rule and say- my God- there’s a rule- ya can’t BREAK it.

Goopers see a rule and say– “How can I break that thing and use it to my advantage”

As some CEOs say- “The only thing I want to know about a rule is “what’s the penalty for breaking it”- if it’s minor- I’m all for going ahead.”

rwcole @ 158

If yer a dem and Clusterfuck stands up and praises you- you should feel deeply and profoundly humiliated.

couldn’t have a clearer signal that you did something wrong as a Democrat.

Fed

No I have not.

Blub @ 159

rwcole @ 156

Bush PRAISED the senate dems for their vote last night—PUKE!!

yep.. and our letters need to point out that such a glowing personal endorsement by shrub WILL be remembered by the voters

I’m sure he has been emboldened by the success of his efforts.

TiredFed @ 157

haha. did I answer this already? I forget. I have no doubt that the House will not muster a 2/3rds majority vote for this bill. But I have been wrong before and I’m just not getting the backstory here – for example, why would Barbara Mikulski vote in favor of it? She’s on the Senate Intel Committee. Somethings up.

yeah. i think you replied to another of my comments when i was writing this one.

… and as for what is up – i don’t even understand the on stage kabuki… the backstory is waaay beyond me at the moment.

bottom line though… this rushing, doing things in an obsure way, not explaining what’s happening and why…?

not ok with this constituent.

Dems need to pass a bill that Clusterfuck doesn’t like- one that requires warrrants..Then they should say “There’s your authorization- if you don’t sign it and use it- any subsequent attacks are on YOUR head”- and then leave town!

That seems so simple and so basic- I must be missing something.

I’m surely not an expert in intel or FISA, but something struck me on the senate bill. they say it has a sunset provision (180 days), but it exempts anything done under the new law (or the old law?) which can last up to a year. so the sunset is really on actions taken in the next 6 months that can last up to a year. when is that election again?

My boy Bill Nelson was right there with ole’ DiFi casting his vote with the R’s on the tough issues.

Mr. Nelsons Greatest Hits-
Confirm John Roberts = yes
Confirm all of Bush’s judges = yes
Reathorize Patriot Act = yes
Alternative energy incentives = no
Anti bankrupcy bill = yes
Military Commisions Act = yes
Estate tax relief act = yes
Restore top tax rate (over 1mil) to pre 2001 levels = no
Ban flag burning = yes
Extend Bush tax cuts = yes
English official language = yes
Promote Petraeus to 4 star (after great Iraq training success) = yes
Extend tax cuts on dividends & cap gains = yes
Prevent PAC’s from employing family members =no
Immagration reform = vote with R’s every time
Cloture on Warner Iraq amdt. = yes
Cloture on Feingold Iraq amdt. = no
India-US peaceful atomic energy amdt = no
Limit waiver athority of President = no
Reid amdt. 4936 = no (1 of 3 Dems voting no)
Gulf of Mexico Energy Act = yes
Extra 85.6mil for immagration investigators (DHS) = yes
Fund Fire/Police/EMT urgent priorities w/reduction in tax breaks to over 1Mil incomes = no
US – Oman free trade agreement = yes
Levin sense of the Congress on Iraq policy = no

and now

Bush okay to spy on you with no oversight = YES

rwcole @ 168

Dems need to pass a bill that Clusterfuck doesn’t like- one that requires warrrants..Then they should say “There’s your authorization- if you don’t sign it and use it- any subsequent attacks are on YOUR head”- and then leave town!

That seems so simple and so basic- I must be missing something.

that would be the right thing to do, but it would take 60 votes in the Senate. and they managed to get 60 votes for that POS last night.

TiredFed @ 169

I’m surely not an expert in intel or FISA, but something struck me on the senate bill. they say it has a sunset provision (180 days), but it exempts anything done under the new law (or the old law?) which can last up to a year. so the sunset is really on actions taken in the next 6 months that can last up to a year. when is that election again?

That telegraphs to me that people are actively thinking “IF we can just get to the next election things will be sorted out.”

They don’t know their own business, because as someone else said this legislation will be the new starting point for negotiations.

AND they clearly do not understand that they are laying solid ground work out here for many “primary challengers.”

TiredFed @ 171

rwcole @ 168

Dems need to pass a bill that Clusterfuck doesn’t like- one that requires warrrants..Then they should say “There’s your authorization- if you don’t sign it and use it- any subsequent attacks are on YOUR head”- and then leave town!

That seems so simple and so basic- I must be missing something.

that would be the right thing to do, but it would take 60 votes in the Senate. and they managed to get 60 votes for that POS last night.

and if the house wanted to pass something the bush would reject – they would have tried to get their bill passed last night (and not work with a 2/3 votes requirement)…

it could be we will come to regret asked the dems to block yesterday’s house bill.

course, i have no idea what i’m talking about.

Blub @ 155

rwcole @ 148

If the house and the senate both give Clusterfuck what he’s demanding and allow him to declare victory, they should be forced to wear bags over their heads for the rest of their congressional careers.

… and the the 111th Congress shall hereafter be referred to in history as the Baghead Congress

Baghead. Perfect! It complements their support for the Bagdad invasion. And, we can send them all paper bags when they screw up as they seem to be doing too often.

hehe.. maybe the House can attach a Gitmo closing rider or something like that to any FISA bill they send to shrub… and put shrub into a position of having to veto his own bill AFTER he’s already said that failure to pass this emergency spying measure will likely result in an attack in August.

fdl reader @ 172

AND they clearly do not understand that they are laying solid ground work out here for many “primary challengers.”

there’s not enough resources to go after all of them (yet). think of what was put into lamont’s campaign last year.

there is enough anger though for some third party challenges (especially for pres) that could throw the race.

this analysis is not reassuring:

Newswise — The Democratic Party stands to lose the 2008 presidential election unless it takes a stronger stand against the Iraq war, a University of Florida researcher says.

The loose coalition of groups opposed to American involvement in the Iraq war, which helped defeat Republicans in the 2006 midterm elections, is considerably less sympathetic to the Democrats and plans massive protests at the party’s national convention next summer in Denver, said Michael T. Heaney, a political science professor.

“We see a very clear shift in the anti-war movement against the Democratic Party just in the last couple of months,” said Heaney, who has written an article on anti-war activists that appears in the July edition of American Politics Research journal. “And the basic reason for that is the anti-war forces are very disappointed that the Democrats have not kept their promise to bring the troops home, which was their mandate after the 2006 election.”

selise @ 176

I hear you ~ but we have to do everything we can. It would be wise to be ready to absorb people who are angry enough to become active at this point for the first time in their lives.

And, honestly, in my mind today I am unwilling to give up any seat to these failures. It’s just beyond accepting anymore. The first step is to stop accepting it.

empy @ 170

My boy Bill Nelson was right there with ole’ DiFi casting his vote with the R’s on the tough issues.

Mr. Nelsons Greatest Hits-
Confirm John Roberts = yes
Confirm all of Bush’s judges = yes
Reathorize Patriot Act = yes
Alternative energy incentives = no
Anti bankrupcy bill = yes
Military Commisions Act = yes
Estate tax relief act = yes
Restore top tax rate (over 1mil) to pre 2001 levels = no
Ban flag burning = yes
Extend Bush tax cuts = yes
English official language = yes
Promote Petraeus to 4 star (after great Iraq training success) = yes
Extend tax cuts on dividends & cap gains = yes
Prevent PAC’s from employing family members =no
Immagration reform = vote with R’s every time
Cloture on Warner Iraq amdt. = yes
Cloture on Feingold Iraq amdt. = no
India-US peaceful atomic energy amdt = no
Limit waiver athority of President = no
Reid amdt. 4936 = no (1 of 3 Dems voting no)
Gulf of Mexico Energy Act = yes
Extra 85.6mil for immagration investigators (DHS) = yes
Fund Fire/Police/EMT urgent priorities w/reduction in tax breaks to over 1Mil incomes = no
US – Oman free trade agreement = yes
Levin sense of the Congress on Iraq policy = no

and now

Bush okay to spy on you with no oversight = YES

Who needs republicans?

LS @ 41

http://video.google.com/videop…..3867390173

America: Freedom to Fascism

1 hour 51 minutes.

Worth the watch.

You’re right that is worth a watch, and after watching it is hard to see how income tax is lawful – is that why they are so adamant about stare decisis? But we have no voice, they (both parties) come to us for our votes or cheat us out of them and when then get to DC never make eye contact again. A third party will not work, what we need is a 2nd Constitutional Convention.

There are so many issues we could discuss and resolve, including the legality of income tax and the federal reserve. Are corporations persons? Add campaign finance reform, health care, habeas corpus, unitary exec. on and on and on.

You are all having fun at Yearly Kos think about how great a constitutional convention could be.

One of the events that led to the first Constitutional convention was a veterans protest riot. They had fought and established this country and on returning home were losing their property due to unscrupulous lending which took advantage of the veterans need for cash to re-start their lives. Something like that anyway.

I moved upstairs.

fdl reader @ 177

selise @ 176

I hear you ~ but we have to do everything we can. It would be wise to be ready to absorb people who are angry enough to become active at this point for the first time in their lives.

And, honestly, in my mind today I am unwilling to give up any seat to these failures. It’s just beyond accepting anymore. The first step is to stop accepting it.

i have no intention of giving up… but i might go back to social movement politics… not sure if anything i’m doing electoral wise or lobbying wise is helpful.

so read the about the analysis of the anti-war movement above – and it rings really true for me. planning on going to the dnc next summer – to protest.

not gonna make a decision now while i’m pissed… but i’m considering it. i see very little action for me to support in the blogosphere (at the moment) to help hold the dems accountable. last year the dems were in the minority and there was the lobbying for feingold’s censure resolution and the lamont campaign. now, with a dem majority in congress, there is even less – when i want more.

i’m probably just rambling… will head upstairs now.

Feinstein voted Yes; Boxer voted “present.”

(WTF is that? “Present” is the new “absent”; “Voting ‘warm body’ here; I just can’t make up my mind — give more unchecked power to Bush? Give more surveillance power — unchecked by court review — to Abu Gonzales?”)

All I can figure is, the Bushies have J. Edgared the whole lot of them. IOW, he’s got evidence of Senator X’s bestiality downloads; he’s got evidence that Congresswoman Y lights up the occasional doobie at home; he’s got evidence that “family values” Senator Z lives a secret life as a leather-clad bottom. And he’s threatened each and every one of them with exposure, if they don’t do his bidding.

{shakes head}

My ex-SIL used to have what I considered the most frustrating job in the world: Teaching the least-teachable of the “special ed” kids. She said she’d FINALLY get them to grasp a simple task, only to come back from summer vacation, to find that they’d forgotten how to do it.

I’m beginning to understand how she felt.

selise @ 181

Yeah: I’m desperate for actions that take the current frame into account and have *some* hope of change.

I see primaries as huge ~ that’s my awareness today.

And this terror propaganda is from LIARS and is working too well for BushCo. Grow UP Congress.

I burnt out on calls and letters over Alito. Made myself sick. I can’t ignore what’s happening but … man, it’s a crock on days like today.

Take Care.

LS @ 133

Adie @ 114

THIS LINK WORKS to Speaker’s e-mail. Start filling it up pups! I just sent my 2cts.

http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

I sent mine, and I told her to make sure Democrats refrain from referring to the United States of America as “The Homeland”, because it is offensive and reminiscent of Germany in the 1930’s.

I just tried phoning and her voice mailbox is full so I just sent an email. Thanks for the link! And I’m with ya on that “The Homeland” crap. I cringe every time I hear it.

Made the phone call.

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