Anthony Natale, Padilla’s attorney these past tumultuous five years, cooly informed US Federal Court Judge Marcia Cooke this week that he would not be calling no witnesses on his client’s behalf. None.
It was a not-very-subtle way of signaling that the paucity of the government’s case against Padilla isn’t even worthy of a rejoinder, that he wouldn’t even dignify the credibility of the charges against his client and their unconvincing witnesses by providing no rebuttal witnesses. It appears that closing arguments will be the week of the 13th.
So suddenly the terrorists conspiracy case against Jose Padilla, and his two relatively unknown alleged co-conspirator is coming to a very anticlimactic end–not with a bang but a whimper.
This seemed to be the single sloppiest, high-stakes case in Federal Court ever. But I learned, to my surprise, that many government cases alleging terrorism with the Justice Department in charge have a record of failure and mismanagement.
Laura Parker at USA Today consulted legal scholars and terrorism experts about government allegations of terrorism. statistics.
“What we see time and again is a big press conference and Justice Department statements about how we’re prosecuting the war on terrorism, and then the cases either fizzle out or the charges are reduced to relatively minor guilty pleas,” says David Cole, a law professor at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., who specializes in national security.
And the Department of Justice track record?
A “terrorist report card” prepared in September by the Center on Law and Security at the New York University Law School found that in 510 cases since 9/11 that the government said were terrorism-related, only 158 defendants have been prosecuted on charges of terrorism or giving material support to terrorism. The rest have been prosecuted on lesser charges, and no link to terrorism was proved in court. The figures are the most recent available from NYU.
The report found a 29% conviction rate in terrorism prosecutions, compared with the Justice Department’s 93% conviction rate in other criminal prosecutions.
After the twelve weeks of the prosecution’s case against Jose Padilla, one wonders if it will join the 71% of Justice Department terrorism prosecutions which ended in failure to convinct. The evidence–or lack thereof–has been extensively reviewed in this column–the alleged fingerprints on a document allegedly obtained from an Afghanistan “stranger” and handed, gratis, to a mysterious CIA agent, the 7 out of 300,000 wire taped conversations in which Padilla was involved, with different translators offering different interpretations of his mention of “zucchini”–vegetable or roadside bomb?
Was Padilla working with _______planning to murder, kidnap and maim people outside of the United States on behalf of Al Qaeda? Who were they planning to murder, kidnap and maim? What steps had they taken in that direction? What methods were they planning to employ? Busch Gardens.
With such a paucity of evidence, why did the Feds pursue this case for five years and break a half-dozen or more laws? FDL reader “mack” offered a reason last week:
You float the lamest as the trial balloon. That establishes precedent.
In other words if that can nail Padilla they can nail anyone.
Let’s look at where the FBI stands, since they, along with the Justice Department, were responsible for pursuit of this case.
According to ABC’s Justin Rood
The FBI is taking cues from the CIA to recruit thousands of covert informants in the United States as part of a sprawling effort to boost its intelligence capabilities.
Ah yes, Americans spying on Americans. How…East German of them.
Even Pravda acknowledged there had to be a limit to that kind of intramural spying, pointing to East Germany as the logical end of that kind of citizen-spys-spying-on-its-citizens.
By the time East Germany collapsed in 1989, it was estimated that 91,000 full-time employees and 300,000 informants were employed by the Stasi.
In other words, about one in fifty East Germans collaborated with the Stasi—one of the highest penetrations of any civilian society by an intelligence-gathering organization.
William Arkin of the Washington Post, (cited by Watson) points out the CIA and NSA are old hands at this kind of spying a long time, with the military working furiously to catch up.
Billions, trillions, even quadrillions, hell, quintillions of wire taps– go for it if that’s what takes to defeat terrorism and preserve the American way of life!
The National Security Analysis Center (NSAC) would bring together nearly 1.5 billion records created or collected by the FBI and other government agencies, a figure the FBI expects to quadruple in coming years, according to an unclassified FBI budget document obtained by the Blotter on ABCNews.com. (Emphasis added)
Let ‘er rip!
…the FBI’s stated hopes to “pro-actively” mine the data to find terrorists using “predictive” analysis…
In theory, predictive analysis involves mapping a known pattern of terrorist behavior — for instance, the sequence and timing of such mundane activities as bank transactions and travel purchases — against a massive collection of such records like the NSAC databases. If an individual’s actions match the pattern, they can be considered a suspect, even if they
have no known ties to any suspected terrorists or known terrorist groups.
Such a method would help identify “sleeper cells,” the FBI claims
Sleeper cells, indeed. Nice thought to put yourself to sleep with tonight. Counting potential spies not sheep.
(With Christopher Austin)
Related posts:
- David Kris: Our Only Military Commission Convictions May be Illegal
- Thailand Refuses to Extradite Viktor Bout
- Fort Hood Shooter’s Trial May Shed Light on NSA/CIA Domestic Spying
- Late Night: Elephants on Parade
- Lieberman’s Hunt for a Lone Wolf: Will Fort Hood Shootings be Used to Expand PATRIOT Surveillance?





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Hi Lew!
low digits?
((Waives to LL from the left coast this week))
LoudounLib at 1
YOU WOULD NOT BELIEVE WHAT I WENT THROUGH TO GET HERE! MORE LATER
((waves back at petedownunder/leftcoaster))
Cable goes out. They say back at 4:40. Then 6:50.
No good. Get lap top go to my cafe. I say I will be here for a while. They say tonight is drums night! Go to Starbucks pay $$ Up, then out. Back to my cafe and got here with 2 minutes to spare
Hi Lew,
First sentence…not be calling ANY witnesses.
My dawg, if you are NOT watching CSpan and this FISA discussion, yer missing John Tierney just SLAMMING IT down the throats of those gathered there!!!
GO TIERNEY GO!!!!!
WHOOOOO!
Lewis Z. Koch @ 6
omg Lew, what a hassle!
The thing with fascism, is it’s quality of endurance.
Loo Hoo at 7
Yeah. But I love “no” then followed by “none.” Looking for alleration
Mahalo, Lew!!! What is your reaction to no Defense Witness testimony? Do you think the Jury should hear some? *g*
Nothing has changed
http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml
The United States is dead. Some person here needs to tell us what to do.
Are the neocons neo-fascists? And what exactly is a new-fascist?
So why is the gov so unsuccessful? No terrorists here? Incompetence? What?
CTuttle at 11
Yeah, it’s a gamble. Do you think the jury will get the “contempt” Padilla’s lawyer has for the evidence against his client. He can’t call Padilla, of course. So calling no one (anyone) may be the best ploy. We’ll know soon.
Lew says “In other words if that can nail Padilla they can nail anyone.”
Remember Ari Fleischer saying something like “people need to watch what they say”?
WTF is happening to this country?!
Lewis Z. Koch @ 6
In Chi-town?
Lungren’s drunk, I think.
Lewis Z. Koch @ 16
Won’t his contempt for gov case come thru in his closing? Wherein he’ll say something like: gov’s case so weak it was not necessary to rebut it. Can he cite judge’s remarkthat the case was “thin”?
OldCoastie @ 19
Do his eyes always look like that?
LoudounLib @ 21
no and usually his speech is much sharper.
OldCoastie @ 19
I have seen him speak on TV when he was in office in Ca and often thought he seemed drunk. If i were a Repug these days, I expect I would drink a lot.
eCAHNomics at 15
I think the Justice Department is putting weak cases on, cases they would normally not even prosecute, But the pressure is on, they don’t have eager Assistant US Attorneys who are hot to do it but they have a hell of a lot of USAs who’ve graduated a non-law school, law school.
The good guys have ducked. Thank goodness for their courage in turning down the case.
I completely disagree with such a tactic. Standard process would go for low hanging fruit first & get yerself up a head o’ steam. Doing the most difficult first shows you to be a jerk & taints all future cases.
Pardon me for asking but who makes the wiretap equipment? That is some government contract!
Great Post! The Unbelievable (Quite literally) FISA debate is going on now, the lamest demagoguery I have heard in awhile, which is saying a lot for this crowd. They are going to sell out in exchange for AGAG’s resignation, I just know it.
My little Congress-jerk is running things for the Republiclown, I can’t wait to see him when he gets back. I am seriously considering self-immolation in his office. Perhaps it will get Lamar’s attention and as an added bonus it might make Dubhaltach think better of the anti-war movement here.
To Bluetoe
Re: Last thread.
Felt that 70% were off-thread. Understandably
so.
Thanks for your feedback.
OldCoastie @ 20
As a CA’nian since oh, ‘62 or so, I DESPISE that scum!!!
Absolutely. Despise. That. Reptile.
Schiff was dead on with his concern for ‘incidental’ datamining of any Americans stateside!
nonplussed @ 27
Nothing would get Lamar’s attention. He seems so dumb, but aren’t they all.
Implying what? That they don’t have any reaal terrorists? Or that they have some but aren’t prosecuting them?
The Moussaoui case was really bad. Some TSA officials refused to speak to defense attorneys. There was a lawyer Carla Martin from the TSA who advised members of the FAA not to talk to the defense. She also coached witnesses on their prospective testimony. One of the government prosecutors David Novak spoke to two witnesses at the same time over the phone raising similar concerns. Novak admitted the impropriety but said he was only talking to them about scheduling issues.
And this is only a little of what went on at a trial that seemed more circus than judicial proceeding. It was the Moussaoui case that really showed me just how twisted and inept prosecutions of extremely unsympathetic individuals could be.
eCAHNomics @ 20
Will the Jury buy it???
Feh . . Duncan Hunter “significant delay on the battlefield” due to lack of FISA revisions.
There IS no delay, as I’ve read elsewhere today.
Battlefield tactics proceed as is, then, it’s up to folks to file for warrants and get approval after the fact . . .
Another reason to be spiteful of some CA representation. But we gave the world Tricky Dick and Ronnie, so what the heck . . grand tradition.
I have a dream – more a night. Padilla in his suit hears a not guilty verdict and three men arrest him and haul him off — charges to be determined later. That I could actually think and write that last sentence is how far Bush et al has taken us.
Ooh, Jane!!!
nonplussed @ 28
Don’t bother such a drastic measure. A Quaker tried that in front of the White House during the Vietnam War. Nothing! Nada! No impact!
Ctuttle @ 33
I single-handedly hung a jury in a murder trial because all the prosecution had was an alleged confession to a dectective. So perhaps I’m not a good judge of what the average jury will or won’t buy.
lew-you sent me to my dictionary with the repeated use of the word ‘paucity’ and i am a word queen………
so, for those who didn’t know what it is-websters………
paucity-Fewness; scarcity; smallness of quantity.
that Heather Wilson sure is a good little republican…
Lewis Z. Koch @ 34
I absolutely can visualize that! Gitmo has made that abundantly clear!!!
Lewis Z. Koch @ 35
Unfortunately, I’m sure you’re right on this one.
So. Are we prepared to say that with Padilla, etc., that the Bush DOJ, as distinct from an actual DOJ, is in panic mode?
Heil Bush! Das Homeland bist here.
Not!!!!!
I salute you with the bird!!
Heather “I stole my last election” Wilson reminds me of the avg NPR commentator these days.
Hugh at 32
You make critical points here. Moussaoui needs to be thoroughly examined. The G has tossed this “WE can’t tell you” bullshit and I think it’s time they get called on it. Put one reporter and one lawyer who’s doesn’t mind making waves…I do think that reporter doesn’t have to be print..I think a killer blogger could create a storm. Or at least try.
Lewis Z. Koch @ 37
They would do that without a blinking. We are there.
dmac @ 39
Paucity I knew. What sent me to the dictionary a couple of days ago was gallimaufry.
Lew: There’s gotta be some kind of bloggers’ medal for what you went through today! Thanks for bringing us this continuing story. It is truly an outrage. We need better times.
*uck you! Heather Wilson with your dumbass exhibits 9-11 o! my!
Call me simple. But I can’t see much difference between the Nazis in the run-up to WWII, and the Bush administration.
So why aren’t they catching any genuine terrorists who would be easy to prosecute?
eCAHNomics @ 49
In my home town we call that gumbo.
Oklahoma kiddo at 42
I think the DOJ is in FULL PANIC mode. They’re going to be shredding and deleting as fast as their fingers can fly, But they know that there are seriously pissed off people who will be digging deep the next four and eight years, and come up with serious shit.
Amen, preach it! Rule of Law!!
eCAHNomics @ 51
Three words: “Heckuva Job, Brownie!” ;-)
OldCoastie @ 39
Always reminds me of Nancy Kulp, (aka “Miss Jane” on Beverly Hillbillies) playing a very nasty role…
Looking at Bush on Olbermann. My gawd. That arrogant head-bobbing of the prez is annoying.
eCAHNomics at 51
What does your gut tell you?
Lewis Z. Koch @ 56
I surely do hope so. I surely do.
I am so sick that our laws mean nothing anymore.
And why does the President get to break the law?
and lew- i don’t ‘get’ the calling of no witnesses………..really, someone should be able to say he was talking about zucchini……..as zuchini……..
even his own mom???????? somebody????????
i would want someone to get up there and say who i am.
nonplussed @ 58
lol, I can see that ;-)
Lewis Z. Koch @ 54
This will be going on all over W’s branch pretty soon if not already. I figured out about two years ago that they were going to destroy all the records, and a lot of what we know now was just suspicion back then. I can remember exactly where I was when the thought struck me-riding my bicycle down the back side of Mohonk Mountain house. Thought about it for the rest of the 45 mile ride.
One day we may all meet, not at YKos, but on some Fatal Shore island when we are rounded up as enemies of the state.
Lewis Z. Koch @ 53
Yeah! All those trod on toes might deliver a mighty boot in the Political Toadies’ collective arse!!!
Jonathan @ 14
Some person(s) did: Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, Adams et al.
Lewis Z. Koch @ 35
I have a dream – more a night. Padilla in his suit hears a not guilty verdict and three men arrest him and haul him off — charges to be determined later. That I could actually think and write that last sentence is how far Bush et al has taken us.
I don’t think you’re having a nightmare. I think you’re seeing into the future.
N=1 @ 67
Yes. And I like what they have to say. I am ready.
CTuttle @ 56
Yeah, that’s my guess too, but I’m looking for something more definitive. One wag described the wiretapping sweeps as looking for a needle in a haystack by adding more hay. Fundamental concept of how they’re looking is flawed? Terrorism is genuinely a problem of samll numbers.
Or as someone suggested on another thread, maybe there aren’t any terorists.
My first FDL HT
(must be a slow week)
This Administration has teset the bar to new lows in sooooo many areas
Hurricanes? Never heard of ‘em.
Infrastructure repairs? No money after tax cuts.
Re-emptivly invade a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of pretexts? No problem.
Politicize Federal law enforcement? You bet’cha.
The scary thing is that the already flawed DOJ/FBI infrastructure has now been broken, possibly beyond repair.
QuakerGirl @ 65
and yet, we’ll all ready know each other.
Lew,
Predictive analysis in these cases is completely flawed as they haven’t a baseline to use for predictions.
To do that they would have to have very extensive records of hundreds of terrorists so that they might extract something which is identifiable.
That’s all hogwash and grasping at straws.
But they go even further because they plant and encourage and entrap suckers and then use their behavior as predictive. What jerks.
Save us from the national security state.
Free Speech TV 8:00 CT – tonight.
America: Freedom to Fascism.
If you have not seen this, please watch it.
Also, it can be googled and is on line.
Everything said in it has come to pass and is happening now. Very compelling.
jayt @ 68
I don’t think you’re having a nightmare. I think you’re seeing into the future.
Just as they giveth freedom to Libby they taketh freedom from others.
I can remember watching the Watergate hearings live ( I was supposed to be working.) Then I’d come home, and watch a complete rerun on PBS.
I…had…the time of my life!!! (he sung)
Maybe…one more time!
Elliott @ 70
They had better have some serious guards if they round up the FDL group.
eCAHNomics @ 38
Bless you. I had a case that hung 11-1 one way on some charges and 11-1 the other way on other charges. I never even bothered to find out which was which.
On re-trial, I did a better job, and won acquittal on *all* charges. If it wasn’t for that one citizen standing up and refusing to be swayed, a grave injustice would have been done. I applaud your courage.
Hoekstra: “This bill protects terrorists.”
I do not believe that they have found a SINGLE terrorist with all their intelligence. I think it’s bunk. I have no evidence that this threat even exists today. All I have are what LIARS tell me.
They don’t DARE apply the rule of law to Terrorism because their propaganda would evaporate.
I am so sick of this shit.
SanderO @ 72
Seems to me Stalin & Hitler were more competent than W?
Twain @ 77
I fixed your typo
ecahn at 50 says-”Paucity I knew. What sent me to the dictionary a couple of days ago was gallimaufry.”
i remember, that one i knew, puacity, no………funny, isn’t it? i love language.
Elliott at 70
“…if they round up the FDL group.” Now you’re really taking me back to ‘68
Elliott @ 79
Now why didn’t I think of that. Thanks
Elliott @ 72
Pleased to meet you, Elliott. You sound and look like a friend to me:)
Lewis Z. Koch @ 75
The Ds would have to grow a pair. I can see the pardons flowing fast & furious to “heal the nation’s wounds.” Otherwise we need to elect a whole bunch of new Ds with b*lls.
SanderO @ 74
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Anyone think as I do, that we are being monitored on this site right this very minute? Or what it would mean if we lost the ability to communicate this way?
LoudounLib @ 18
It is no longer in the gerund phase…drop the -ing…it’s happened.
Toby Wollin @ 89
Yep — they’re monitoring, alright…and taking copious notes.
QuakerGirl @ 85
likewise!
jayt @ 77
I ran into the jury foreman at a fundraiser several years later. He recognized me; I didn’t know who the heck he was until he told me. I said, oh yeah, what ever happened? Did they retry him? Thru clenched teeth he said: Yes they did and he was found guilty. Some of us were right. Didn’t convince me. To this day, I still have my reasonable doubt.
quaker girl at 55-”In my home town we call that gumbo.”
in parts of ohio, anything we don’t ‘get’ we call ‘cheesecake’………..
james, you’re right.
Toby Wollin at 86
Of course they’re monitoring this site, and others. It’s all being sucked into these giant NSA computers, just waiting to be taken out the next time, These folks aren’t going away. Hoover still lives in the hearts of his FBI.
fdl reader @ 79
Who would ever have thought that the mastermind could do all this and run such a clever operation from a primitive cave.
eCAHNomics @ 68
They exist! But, the sheer amount of dialogue(whatever the medium!) still needs to be ‘analyzed’!!! There’s a finite number to review an infinite amount of data!!! ;-)
Toby Wollin @ 88
YES!
Toby Wollin @ 88
My feelings would be hurt if we were being ignored by THEM
Lewis Z. Koch @ 96
Zuchini! Zuchini! Zuchini!
worth a watch – ABC Nightline story on NSA (9min)
(takes a few seconds to load plus 30sec ad)
Mark Klein (22year tech @ ATT)
this is how it’s done…
Toby Wollin @ 89
The first part, absolutely (waves!!!). The second part is that we didn’t have it before, and we stopped the Vietnam war and Richard Nixon. We the People are 300,000,000 strong. If push ever comes to shove on a mass scale, fasten your seatbelt. This Administration cherry picks individuals to use as “examples”. They are bullies. They could never handle the whole country. The country is not completely paying attention yet, but much more so now than say 2 years ago. It is the poor stragglers that they attack, but they can’t get the whole herd.
Toby Wollin @ 87
I assume they sweep every phone call, internet interaction, etc, into their databases & scan for combinations of key words. Trouble for them is they don’t have enuf people to go after us yet.
Lewis Z. Koch @ 95
It’s not that they’re monitoring us it’s that they are monitoring every dem leader in this country.
Toby Wollin @ 89
I know we are – Just pop in and check Site Meter from time to time. They don’t even always use anonymized IP addresses. I am finally used to the Pentagon and EOP showing up on my blog.
And yes – when – not if – net freedom is lost, so will we all be.
A 22nd century police state with all the tools of computing and communications technology. Then add neighbors and spying on neighbors and East Germany and the Stasi would seem quite archaic.
The transformation of the US from a constitutional democracy with rule of law and protection of the rights of individuals to a society where the elites rule through fear and intimidation is well on its way.
As the Padilla case shows here was a US citizen tortured in jail with no charges for several years and then tried on lesses charges with limited evidence and a lot of insinuations.
One of these days it could be any one of us that Lewis could be blogging about. And we’ll lament but not take any action.
The Dems elites are also part of the problem. Note how fast they are willing give up warrants and FISA court supervision on surveillance of citizens in the USA.
They want us to think that if they can get Padilla, they can get anyone. They can’t on a mass scale. They want us to be afraid of them when it should be the other way around.
Why is it that we cannot remember how to communicate without these boxes? In order for communication to work we need to be organized around something that is not
fully digital.
Paul Revere?
fdl reader @ 100
Hahahahah! Ditto!
But remember when we were told that bin Laden DIDN’T use technology anymore because he knew WE would be chasing down his electronic trail? So, just who are they trying to catch by monitoring electronic records?
US?
Pelosi UP!
Maddow is upset on Olbermann. About the Republican Party.
hehe.. I bet that the incident in Brooklyn harbor this morning involving detection by our intrepid homeland security forces of an historian’s replica 1776 submarine, makes it onto the 2007 terrorism report card — “terrorist marine attack on New York City foiled by Coast Guard” or something like that
Ooh, Rachel on KO!!!
In about two weeks a movie called The Lives of Others will be released in DVD. I would ask that you buy it. It is about an East German Secret Service man who spies on a couple. I will not say more except to say I wept, and stayed to see it one more time,
ab initio @ 107
I agree with everything you posit except that the society of elites is already here and quite robust. It feasts on the blood of the vulnerable.
Invest in shreader stock… they’ll be flying off the shelves soon.
Mary McCurnin @ 109
Immediate communities and word of mouth. I do not think it will come to that. Citizen, even neocons especially, like their stuff, and their children do too.
LS @ 107
Viva la France!
Mary McCurnin: Bingo. My point, exactly.
QuakerGirl @ 110
Also note how I cleverly try to confuse with bad spelling! Teh terrorists don’t spell so well, you know.
don’t the real bad guys know to use dispoable cell phones? :P
I like Rachel – she is VERY smart!
Blub @ 113
Ayup!
Toby Wollin @ 89
When they proposed the “Total Information Awareness” program after 9/11, I voluntarily ratted myself out via hardcopy letter to the Director, John Poindexter, knowing that they’d be going through my all my private shit shortly anyway.
dammit. KO or C-Span?
Lewis Z. Koch @ 114
I am so glad that you mentioned this, the film affected me in the same way and I mention it on FDL often. According to Amazon it is to be released Aug. 21. I just don’t think there are any right wing heroes now, the days of Watergate are gone forever. I can remember the duck and cover days and for what. Dictator Bush.
jayt @ 123
both.
N=1 @ 68
I see Jonathan is spreading cheer again.
QuakerGirl @ 26
data mining “alledgedly” done by Amdocs and Comverse Infosy
BobbyG at 122
Your letter is priceless!
Although the Bush Administration professes to be anti-government, the Republicans have sure made a lot of money off the government (Halliburton, high oil prices, rigged and no-bid contracts, Blackwater, etc.).
jayt @ 123
I know!!! Decisions, Decisions! I’m listening to C-span and watching KO!!!
Fern @ 128
Reality is tough for folks to swallow
SanderO @ 117
What is that?
Lewis Z. Koch @ 131
INDEED it is!
fdl reader @ 121
The Navy has been getting a lot of funds for “Littoral Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) Threat”, which of course, requires an entire new generation of (expen$ive) technology. It will most certainly be classified as an shallow water submarine attack.
Pelosi speaking well…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
One big difference – popularity.
MOST AMERICANS FAVOR a third-party White House bid.
Some 53% back the idea of building a third party to mount presidential candidacy. Support is strongest among men, those younger than 50, professionals and Northeasterners.
Seven of 10 say an independent would enhance the presidential campaign, and just 11% say they wouldn’t consider voting for an independent. Yet in hypothetical independent bid against Clinton and Giuliani, New York City Mayor Bloomberg draws just 16% from self-described independents.
RUN AL RUN Blow Hillary out of the water.
Fern @ 129
And I endorse everything he believes…I wanna be able to say “I told you so” as I’m disabling a tank rolling down my Main Street.
BobbyG @ 124
that’s funny
Lewis Z. Koch @ 131
Thanks, Lewis.
Those mendacious assholes. Surveil me 24/7 motherbleepers, go right ahead, waste a bunch of time better spent intelligently pursuing actual “terrists.”
shelia jackson lee coming up on cspan.
fdl reader @ 120
Do I have your permission to use that any time I write something screwy! It would help a lot :)
GordonM @ 137
Nope. I believe Nazi party peaked out around 37%, and was down to 32% when Hitler became Chancellor. Don’t know if they allowed any polls after that.
Nancy Pelosi has been using her 30 seconds for about 15 minutes now. heh. And doing it quite well.
Lamenting that she cannot say the word “lie” about what the Repubs have been saying and that she must settle for “misrepresentation”.
good applause at the end.
Sheila Jackson-Lee up for 30 seconds – groan from the Repub side (?).
Pelosi: “Too often misrepresentations are made in the House ( … I don’t like to call them lies ~ which is a charge that is ‘taken down’ from the record, of course) but it’s true and it’s wrong. And it is happening in this debate tonight.”
I am so out of it, being here in Chicago. What is happening? Reid, Pelosi, Schumer and Emmanuel are supposed to speak here tomorrow morning at 8:00. Are we going to see them, or will they be working out the FISA thing or what?
We want Gore. And we will support the nominee of the Democratic Party.
sounded like groaning to me, jayt…
jayt @ 123
Here’s C-span’s linky:
http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_…..p;Code=CS2
FISA vote starting now.
Loo Hoo. @ 146
I don’t think Congress has a chance in hell of getting out of session today, so I don’t think you will be seeing anyone from the House side for sure.
QuakerGirl @ 145
Absolutely, my dear!
Not that I observe you need need to as far as I can tell …
jayt @ 150
I think they are voting on whether they should vote on it…
Loo Hoo. @ 147
I heard Schumer is still expected to show but not Reid or Pelosi.
eCAHNomics @ 102
The NSA is drowning in a sea of information. Data communications have exploded with the growth of the net and the increase of cell phone use in many parts of the world that used to be data poor. Add in encryption and the zucchini factor. Or the way that communications can be bounced around from continent to continent and server to server. Then add in how out of date the NSA’s equipment is. Look at today’s push to revise FISA. Sure, they have plenty of capability still to be dangerous and intrusive but from a technical point of view it’s like watching a debate on which kind of canvas is best for your navy’s sailing ships.
OldCoastie @ 151
LooHoo, heard from Ustream that 3/4 of them have already cancelled.
They may have still have the session, but it’s looking unlikely.
Shumer is the lone holdout for now –
If he shows, they will still have it.
eCAHNomics @ 154
Maybe Reid and Pelosi are going to stand by with the cattle prods – hope so.
CTuttle says
August 3rd, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Thanks – I can’t tear myself away from C-Span. Gonna Tivo KO’s re-run later this evening.
Is KO smokin’ tonight?
Well, Hugh, I feel a little better.
Hugh at 155
How much damage do you think till they leave town?
So far I see three Democratic nays and one GOP yea. The yea is probably Ron Paul and the nays, at least two of them are Kucinich and Maxine Waters. Can’t figure the third unless it Hinchey, now it’s four
OldCoastie @ 154
You could very well be right. I’m parliamentary-impaired, I’m afraid.
Kathleen @ 130
Dig this:
The recent Postal Commission Report had this friggin’ bozo recommendation to implement ‘Intelligent Mail’ — i.e., require sender & recipient ID for all first class mail (beyond the privacy implications, totally unworkable). I read through all the background crap on their hearings, and found a document submitted by Pitney-Bowes, the text of which basically got cut & pasted into the report pretty much verbatim. Pitney-Bowes wanted to get the contract to do it.
Can you imagine? Uhh….Two forms of photo ID to send a postcard?
All these clowns care about is getting a contract, they don’t give a flip about whether anything might even work.
Oh, ffs, the House is trying to get its FISA bill through, the Senate is working on its version, and everyone’s running round like headless frickin’ chickens.
The bloggerati are in Chicago, and their congresscritters probably haven’t even read the texts they’re voting on, let alone the public getting the chance to see what kind of spying is going to be allowed.
I feel very, very uneasy about this.
trust me, jayt – I’m only guessing too…
thanks for the news reports-only get one channel here………..
Hugh – I was just wondering if I should brush up on my FCC license and find a used shortwave set…
Yeah, thanks for the updates. Comcast is still down
Thanks guys, I want them to stay and take care of business.
Bush on Olbermann looked like the cartoons of himself. He really looks bad. Guess he knows that if he doesn’t get what he wants on FISA, he’s looking at prison.
6 Dem fence-jumpers so far – no breaking ranks on the R side….
If all this spying equipment, etc. was so great, you’d think they’d produce *something* more believable EVEN if they were still lies.
And now the liar in chief is here to dsitract and lie
jayt @ 158
Good as always, Turley’s on for a spell!
grrrr….Chimpy on CSPAN now
good time to go clean the litterbox!
Is it any wonder that the Iraqis dislike their PM?
Under pressure from Bush:
Maliki Switches Stance on Timetable
Iraqi Prime Minister Says Troop Withdrawal Depends on Success, Not Dates
Oh, replaying W’s talk on FISA, staged at FBI.
Which reminds me, how are they going to set up his photo op in Minnneapolis? Hanging from a helicopter over the wreckage?
LoudounLib @ 177
that’s what mute buttons are for.
They need to have it fail by just a few votes.
LoudounLib @ 177
Which one, please?
JPL @ 180
see my edit above ;-)
In my first job I had to take the loyalty oath. If you refused to take it you were automatically disqualified as an applicant. FBI said this was to “protect the American people”. Anyone who objected were either a Communist or by not taking the oath aided the Communist.
Loo Hoo. @ 181
CSPAN 1
Loo Hoo – CSPAN 1
Don’t pass it!!!
QuakerGirl @ 184
Loyalty to who(m)?
LS @ 179
They need to have it fail by just a few votes.
I’m so confused…
If my math is right, Dem’s can’t lose the vote now
update: C-Span says 2/3 majority needed for passage – that’s not gonna happen, so… now what?
September 11th!!!!
September 11th!!!!
And they wanna come to our homeland (America) and wreak havoc through death (as opposed to the GOP which wreaks havoc through obfuscation).
They wanna strike the homeland, and here he is lying about a bogus plan in Britain which has already been discredited. It was not technically feasible but it served its purpose at the time.
The federal govt has to do the job u expect us to do one of them is closing the gaps in the FISA…it needs to be modernized (I wanna tap more phones).
I apprediate the spirit of the congress and DNI has provided the congress with a piece of legislation that will close the gaps.
As in the case of the TILLMAN inquiry, this is a second version after Pelosi and DNI had come to an agreement.
eCAHNomics @ 144
Sorry, but you need to get real. Bush’s popularity is around 25%. Hitler had an enormous army in country. We have nothing left in country. Not even enough Nat’l Guard to help us in case of a hurricane.
I realize Bush has been trying to change it, but US law is still “innocent until proven guilty” not “guilty until proven innocent” as in Germany. We’ll see if that still holds with Padilla, but it hasn’t changed out here in the sticks.
It’s looking like Bush will try something, but you’re doing exactly the wrong thing in taking him seriously. Ridicule him, mock him, lampoon him, moon him. Even dear old Daddy won’t be able to save him if he goes too far.
George Bush. The world’s biggest pimple.
McConnell is standing behind Bush
We’ve worked hard and in good faith with the DEmocrats….which ones???? None that I’m aware of
Wonder if Cheney had a gun in McConnell’s ribs
LoudounLib @ 63
I thought for sure that the woman introduced the next rep to speak as “the gentleman from New Mexico,” and then I saw Heather.
Course my hearing could be wrong.
Isn’t this what Bush said earlier, guys? Certainly Bush isn’t still hard at work…
HoJo pontificating on C-2!!!
jayt @ 185
I’m so confused…
Who isn’t? They are voting to see if they should vote – what kind of nuts is that. First graders could organize themselves better. I get so tired of all this fooling around – why don’t they just get up and say “I hate your guts and I’m not voting for your stupid bill?’ See, isn’t that easy !
Loo Hoo. @ 194
This was before he had a chance to dress down McConnell for agreeing to anything that neutered GOnzo in the FISA bill
Lew,
You have done yeoman’s work on the Padilla farce.
Here’s to zuc^%ni!
jayt @ 188
I’m so confused…
I mean on the actual bill. Keep it in limbo for the month of August. If Bush spies on anybody, he’s breaking the law, because it is illegal.
If a terror event occurs, it will be because he wants to protect Gonzo whose covering up for Bush, it will not be because the Dems don’t want to protect America. Bush can make it legal, but he won’t, because he won’t get rid of Gonzo’s power.
Cold-blooded killers! In our HOMEland.
Nothing to sell but fear itself.
Can you imagine what the Iraqi people would do to Bush and Maliki if they could get their hands on these two?
We do, but that is not a plan. The plan started by way of netroots and the 06 election. If that hadn’t happened, they would have taken over the country.
Pat Buchanan “Yet, what do we hear? On to Tehran. On to Pakistan. Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.”
http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=11389
I knew our countries policies had swung far far to the right(wrong) five years ago when I started to agree with Pat Buchanan on foreign policy.
Margot @ 200
We know where they live.
Kathleen @ 203
lol
W is talking about the “INtelligence gap”, I think we’re all in agreement here Loo Hoo. @ 191
This was video on demand from this am.
Jim Clausen @ 196
Second that.
As soon as z*cchini comes in I’m going to report the farmer’s market to NSA.
Jim Clausen at 195
You don’t know how writing this has re-invigrated me. It’s been work, but I’ve loved it, every damn frustrating moment. And I have received TLC from all of you.
Right Kathleen, to think that Buchanan is a moderate voice…what has happened?
nonplussed @ 206
Bush is representative of the “intelligence gap”, as are all of his cronies.
LS @ 187
Strangely, it was a negative. It had everything to do with not being a communist. And was I in trouble. I read Capital – The Communist Manifesto in college and still possessed the book. To read it was suspect.
Margot @ 200
Cold Blooded killers and chickenhawks sending other peoples family members into an unnecessary and immoral war. These killers could care less about the 1 million Iraqi people who have been killed, 4 million Iraqi people who have been displaced, who knows how many are injured.
How can we possibly wonder why people hate us?
Twain @ 196
They are voting to amend the rules..once the rules are amended they go straight to a vote.
There are three GOPers supporting the Dems and 13 Democrats voting no. I expect those Dems feel that the numbers are there for passage although I know at least two of them voting on their principles would vote no just because of what this bill represents.
Let’s not kid ourselves…even if the Dems win this, this temporary expansion of executive powers is still just that, an expansion of executive powers under an executive that is openly in conflict with the congress to the point of committing crimes, I believe, by ordering citizens not to appear in front of congressional committees. An executive that has up to and includiong right now ignored the constitutional safeguards that have been in place for at least two hundred years.
When even Buchanan thinks the Repubs are nuts, you know something’s wrong.
zuchini, zuchini! sherpa sherpa, muhammed jihad!
(h/t to Team America)
toby at 170-”Hugh – I was just wondering if I should brush up on my FCC license and find a used shortwave set…”
actually, shortwave operators are our last defense, people should pay attention to their efforts…..when communications fall, they are the active ones, are an anonymous effort in commnications………..taken for granted…….and they shouldn’t be….most don’t even know what they do………..i suggest you do.
QuakerGirl @ 211
Geez.
Kathleen @ 201
Have you noticed that the libertarians & lefties have joined forces on antiwar.com?
So what will the vote determine? How many votes do we need to win, and has the vote started? I can’t see this miniature c-span tv on the screen and I feel so freaking out of it. Sorry. Basics, if you please!
The motion passes…even if the remaining 8 votes are nays, the ayes have it
Loo Hoo. @ 209
Yowser, the pendulum swung so far to the right (wrong) it is difficult to see the middle. So many people killed, injured and displaced as our pendulum has swung. Can our nation ever be forgiven or redeem ourselves that is the big question?
These warmongers have 18 months they can still do a great deal of damage…serious damage
james @ 210
Thanks for explaining that. I do not watch this on TV because I get so angry. I can just about stand to read it but I still yell at the computer.
Bwwwahahahhhaaaaaahhhh!!!!!!
Trent Lott did a CODE BROWN!
ROTFLMFAO!
Uber Moron.
They are voting to amend the rules..once the rules are amended, through the act of changing the rules, the motion as put forward by the Democrats, will pass.
So the Dem’s voting against this one might simply be of the opinion that this would all be better served by going through committee?
Loo Hoo. @ 219
Motion to suspend the rules and pass…whatever that means. I guess if it is Yea, it passes (the Dem version which cuts out Gonzo’s powers).
NOT PASSED!
eCAHNomics @ 218
yes noticed that a couple of years ago..
james @ 220
Not the first time I’ve been wrong in my life…not the last either
Bill is not passed. What freaking bill?
Later FDLers you give me hope!
eCAHNomics @ 200
Right. The big danger was back in 2004 or so. The wave is at it’s most powerful when it’s about to break. That’s long past. The wave makes the biggest noise when it crashes on the beach – that’s now.
It’s not for us to plan. It’s for us to make plain our disdain. If the bully makes you flinch, he’s won. Don’t flinch. Calmly give him the one fingered salute. With a smile on your face, to make clear you’re not scared.
BTW – I missed that the Dow went down -281 today.
twain, I was wrong on the passage
Loo Hoo. @ 172
That’s about it. Either or. Hey, there was a commentator on Randi Rhodes the other day (her legal mentor she indicate). He argued that if their is another intelligence snafu such as 9-11 there will be investigations that will make teapot dome look like traffic court. And Bush has got Gonzalez and Chertof protecting Bush instead of the USA. Sounds like Bush is still the same old loser trying to make himself lose while acting like a high roller.
I’m going to start writing letters to the editors around here, stating that if there is a terrorist attack we will all know who to blame.
james @ 229
What will happen now?
Loo Hoo. @ 228
Had this been passed by two thirds, the bill that the Dems were pushing for would have been passed along with the suspension of the rules.
Twain @ 235
They will come back tomorrow
That was an up and down vote?? What happens now??
Bush orders them to stay for August until it passes???? (it will never pass with Gonzo as AG)
Make them stay W, make them stay.
oh fer chrissakes. Now we’re gonna vote on whether or not the Dem’s have been naughty?
Steny is pissed
BOOOO hisssssss
They just attacked Murtha for bringing dishonor to the chair.
Hoyer: Enough is enough. Cheers!!!!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING…..index.html
OT (sort of), but very very scary to me. Fundie theocons are deploying “watchers” in courtrooms across the country to put pressure on judges to rule according to their god’s law. Just what kind of country do we live in these days???
Boehner is drunk as a skunk
Now he’s attacking Murtha?
This is a repeat of what they tried to do in Florida during the recount…it’s brownshirt tactics
Table it Steny!
ooohhh, so is Boehner
Boner: Gentleman from MD engaged in debate…parliamentary inquiry (yelling)
Boner appears to need the waahmbulance.
Boehner IS drunk!
Make Boehner walk a straight line and recite the alphabet backwards
I think a hockey game is about to break out.
Oh dear, it’s pandemonium in the House! Stenny v. Boehner smackdown!
james @ 250
heh ;-)
jayt @ 248
707 !!!!!!
Lewis Z. Koch @ 161
Probably in EPUland. This last minute stuff is a recipe for disaster. That said, with luck, nothing will happen or the Congress will pass something which Bush will veto or something will get passed which sunsets after the Congress returns in September.
The problem as I see it and which I sketched out in my 155 is that communication is now globalized which renders obsolete distinctions between domestic and foreign communications. Both the net and cell phones also make communications potentially much more anonymous.
I think that is what bothers me most is that the paradigm has shifted under both the NSA and FISA. The NSA wants more massive but less effective monitoring. What is needed I suspect is the reverse, more specific and clearer targeting of individuals.
To cite another example, take these watch lists with all their errors, tens and hundreds of thousands of names, which can easily be subverted by anyone who actually had an interest in doing so. These too are intrusive and burdensome, and useless.
Boehner is a waste of space
and orange paint.
This reminds me of PM questions within Parliament!!! ;-)
Table, Table, Table. Ayes have it. Yeas and Nays ordered.
They are chanting…the mike got turned off…who moved to table???? They are arguing….mike is on and off….chaos….more fun that two barrels of chimps.
What Boehner did was use provocative language that he knew would draw a response from the other side.
When Hoyer took the bait, Boehner called it a debate and tried invoking the rule that a debate needs one hour to be conducted.
Personally Murtha oughta take Boehner for a drink and have his way with him in the bar or on the way thereto.
Margot @ 200
Both of your statements describe the Republicans. No?
I want to see a mud fight…better than ESPN…yeehaw….
Eli is upstairs
I didn’t catch it till Boehner screamed for the yays and nays, but he really *does* sound drunk.
It will be tabled – vote is 176-97 now and counting. Heh, heh.
Go Granny go.
The terrorism cases, like Padilla’s, are often predicated on who *intends* to commit a crime rather than who has actually committed a crime. So the case here as well.
There was a futuristic movie, last year or the year before, predicated on the idea of crime *prevention,* and the idea of some kind of scientific theory that if you can predict where and when someone will commit a crime, then arrest him *before* he commits the crime, and prosecute accordingly. The movie plays with this idea, extrapolating it to situations where the defendant is not yet even conscious of any intent to commit a crime, but things will happen later that will result in crime. The first half of the movie builds the case for how “accurate” this crime prevention bureau is. The second half shows how one of the chief prosecutors gets tangled in his own web. He finds out that he is going to be arrested for a future crime, which surprises the heck out of him, because he has absolutely no intent to do any such thing. So of course he becomes a fugitive. As the plot unfolds, we see his life careening towards the fateful moment, and then there is some bizarre twist that explains it all. (What was the name of that movie???)
The point is the difficulty of preventing a crime (or act of terrorism), by predicting tendencies. That’s why “intent” is such a difficult thing to prove. Some people have murderous intent (look at yon Cassius; he has that lean and hungry look), but never murder. Other people are completely clueless, and yet in a moment of passion can kill someone almost without realizing what they are doing.
The so-called “War on Terror” (NB: Not war on terrorists!) is trying to square the circle of intent. The results, to date, are bizarre and in the case of Padilla, exceedingly clumsy.
Bob in HI
hey lew – next week? same bat-time, same bat-channel?
jc inOR @ 233
Royal Flush baby. Table it. Bush make them stay. Dems will have the month to study impeachment, inherent contempt, and whatever they wish. Heh.
N=1 @ 260
I was kind of transcribing the scare quotes I was hearing in the president’s little speech. But yes, really both of them describe the GOP.
Lew, thank you again for all this.
Friday news dump:
Top General warned Bush about Tillman death:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..man-death/
Hugh @ 255
So how do they do it in Europe? Have they ever disrupted a plot? Successfully prosecuted the perps?
I suspect that because terrorists are so few, that breaking up a plot is next to impossible & you have to be satified with catching them & prosecuting them (the non-suicides) after the fact, like any other criminal.
Along with harding the targets. But with bridges like we have, terrorists could just huff & puff & blow them down.
Bob Schacht @ 265
Minority Report
eCAHNomics @ 272
Of course they could. There are tons of things they could do, but they haven’t. Who is “they”? That is the question.
Margot @ 269
Another classic case of projection, brought to you courtesy of Sigmund Freud.
jc inOR @ 274
Don’t worry ’bout no stinkin’ typos! What you say is what counts. :}
eCAHNomics @ 272
In the UK they are good after the fact using a lot of surveillance cameras. But in essence it is still straightforward police work. In other countries, take France for example, it is good police work and infiltration of radical groups.
Bob @ 265
Very good points. I think I saw something like that once while I was flipping channels late at night. Creeped me out.
Also me @ 272–very small numbers make terrorists incredibly difficult to find before the fact.
,
Your kidding, right? This sounds more like his lawyer rolled over on him.
Katrina was Baghdad, Baghdad is Katrina, Katrina is Baghdad, Baghdad is Katrina.
Dehydration.
Given the mental state of these angry, frightened, desperate wingnuts, I fear for Padilla’s safety after he is released.
Hugh @ 273
Heh, yeah that’s the movie I was thinking of. Can you imagine this as the basis for Padilla’s case? “We’re going to arrest you and throw you in jail forever because you were thinking BAD THOUGHTS!!!”
Bob in HI