Zed

Ding!

Man, what happened to his tan?

GordonM @ 3

Man, what happened to his tan?

Man Tan.

I think Bush had a signing statement something like “when a Republican does something illegal, that means that it is not illegal”.

Single digits! PW! Good stuff happenin’ today!

Good lord. Doesn’t it resonate with people at all that no one gets most of the summer off of work?

It really is a testament to how spoiled this nation must be to not be in DC right now with pitchforks,torches and maybe some tar and feathers.

TPM is reporting that talks between Congress and the Whiner-in-Chief have collapsed (maybe they told him what to do with his threats of ‘I’ll take your ball and go home’). Maybe it will give us enough time to talk Congress into some sanity.

Oh,and WTF is the deal with all these conservative “news”people meeting in private off the record with Bush the other day?

Please let me know zip codes from red areas that I can use when i call these pantloads.

Apparently there will be a Saturday session

I think that John Boehner used to date Lindsey Graham. Or they went to the same hair salon.

you question anything the pukes do? Executive privelege is the answer you’ll get. But they had nothing to do with any disaster, no, but that’s all they’ll say, as they point to the nearest dem.

Here’s an ACLU site Firepups can use to tell the Democrats in Congress that sticking around is not only the right thing to do, it helps them and really hurts the GOP. More phone numbers are here:

personally I not only think it’s the right thing to do I think they have no choice

this country cannot afford a single recess appointment from the despot in office

james @ 10

Please let me know zip codes from red areas that I can use when i call these pantloads.

Apparently there will be a Saturday session

Now this I can help with. Very red state suburban Atlanta,30155,30152,30144.

Astonishing.
Somebody stuff a cigarette in there and shut him up.

Ya’ll have probably heard that catastrophuck, Tancredo, spouting off about bombing Mecca and Medina…but if not, check this out.

So I am really confused about the substance of the FISA changes. Do we agree with them or not? (That was a joke; I know everyone here makes up her/his own mind.) I listened to part of the House debate & Ds seemed to be arguing that they had done what DNI had requested, and the Rs seemed to be objecting because they hadn’t seen the bill.

Is Boehner’s leak accurate? Did a judge really rule part of the program illegal?

GordonM @ 3

Man, what happened to his tan?

The girl that does his airbrush tan is vacationing in the Hamptons this month.
;)

epu’ed from previous thread:

TPMmuckraker has the text of the fisa bill and and update on negotiations (they’ve broken down with the WH and the dems in the senate are divided).

James @ 10
Don’t forget 30328 and 30327 in Atlanta. Buckhead and Sandy Springs are as red as it gets.

anangryoldbroad @ 9

Oh,and WTF is the deal with all these conservative “news”people meeting in private off the record with Bush the other day?

Someon at YK2 (maybe Hunter), had a long impassioned speech about how W was prez to only his half of the country, only spoke to it, and no other prez, including Ronnie, had ever done that. Once they becameprez, they spoke to all the people.

The Congress should respond by commanding his nibs GWB to stay ‘in session’ and away from his ‘ranch’.

Good ones T. The ones I gave are in Cobb County(perhaps southern Cherokee too)which has been called Colorado Springs II,because of all the megachurches.

drinkof @ 21

The Congress should respond by commanding his nibs GWB to stay ‘in session’ and away from his ‘ranch’.

Don’t agree. Think the country’s better off when he’s clearing brush.

You’re completely right that it’s a distraction. They’ve had this legislation in the pipeline for months and now it’s intregal to national security?

Spy Chief Seeks to Expand Power
By Ryan Singel April 10, 2007 | 12:30:00

The new director of national intelligence is seeking to expand the government’s ability to conduct black bag searches, allow the National Security Agency to spy on foreigners inside the United States without a warrant, kill off lawsuits against telecoms for helping the government spy on American’s phone calls, and make it easier for the government to get phone and email records, even as the FBI remains mired in a scandal over its illegal and widespread use of a Patriot Act power, according to the Associated Press.

The draft bill being circulated by spy chief Mitch Mike McConnell would, according to the AP:

Check the date.

It’s imperative that this passes in rush? Yea, right, and I’ve got a bridge to sell you too

just posted – very important analysis on fisa legislation from marty lederman at balkinization.

Maybe we can organize a little fundraising campaign for the Dems that stay in DC this month…to show our support and put a little icing on the cake…

The GOP is basically refusing to let a bill go forward unless it’s their version. So even though they lost the election, the people of America are supposed to be held hostage to them because if they can’t dictate what the laws should be they won’t let any legislation go forward.

The rush to get this bill out there and voted on is that Bush is now acting with no legal grounding and everything he’s doing is illegal, not like what he was doing before was any better.

This is just more of the same from the GOP and Bush…give us what we want or we’ll do nothing allowing the country to be endangered as long as we get our own way.

Next, when the vote to adjourn is denied, Sessions will go to the mike and threaten to hold his breath until he turns blue or gets what he wants.

bit of marty’s analysis:

This morning, the Democrats on the Intelligence Committees and the Democratic leadership agreed to legislation that would satisfy McConnell’s requirements. Here is the bill. I very roughly describe its principal components below. It is strongly opposed by the communications privacy community (DCT, CNSS, ACLU, etc.) as being too conciliatory, and as going well beyond authorization to exclude purely foreign-to-foreign communications from FISA, i.e., far beyond what is necessary to address the problem that the Administration has described.

DNI McConnell took the negotiated legislation back to the White House . . . and the White House rejected it as insufficient.

So the Republicans are not on board.

The Democratic leadership is trying to pass the bill today. Its prospects in the House are uncertain, because it will be opposed from both the left and (mainly) the right.

James @ 27
Thanks very much. That was clear.

Now, what is it that the GOP wants that the Ds won’t go for? Is it the provision about putting AGAG in charge?

Is Boehner’s leak accurate? Did a judge really rule part of the program illegal?

I’m hoping it was Judge Walton.

solai @ 30

Is Boehner’s leak accurate? Did a judge really rule part of the program illegal?

I’m hoping it was Judge Walton.

That would be justice.

solai @ 30

Is Boehner’s leak accurate? Did a judge really rule part of the program illegal?

I’m hoping it was Judge Walton.

I saw this somewhere this morning….I’m looking

The bill is not being opposed from the right for any other reason other than that the Democrats have moved it forward.

The Democrats, OTOH, are moving forward a bill that is anathema to rights organizations, civil libertarians, most people who understand the Fourth Amendment and the concept of separation of powers, etc.

So the GOP is upset because they can’t win and the Democrats are bending over backwards going against their own constituencies to be accommodating.

Something is very, very wrong here.

As of this minute, I hope they adjourn without moving this bill forward and when the GOP returns with a new, more draconian bill Pelosi and the leadership should just suck it up, withdraw their agreement on this bill, force everyone to read what they are to vote on, and shove the fucking beast right down the GOP’s throats.

This billl as it stands does not protect my interersts, indeed, it advances a further destruction of my privacy rights at the bidding of the White House.

Screw this…let the bill die…keep congress in session…let the American people see what’s really in this mostrosity.

@ 32

solai @ 30

I’m hoping it was Judge Walton.

I saw this somewhere this morning….I’m looking

IIRC, the Judge’s name is confidential.

So,if the judge ruled this illegal,and Bush went ahead and did it anyway,wouldn’t that be a CRIME???

eCAHNomics @ 28

James @ 27
Thanks very much. That was clear.

Now, what is it that the GOP wants that the Ds won’t go for? Is it the provision about putting AGAG in charge?

We don’t know. The Dems agreed to one thing and then the GOP from the WH is demanding a totally new thing.

Just another case of give these people what they wat and they demand more…bipartisanship=weakness with these people

A few of my thoughts,

I seriously do not understand the present FISA controversy and let me explain why. If I an American am in Germany and call a friend also an American in Japan, there is a high likelihood that my call will be swept up by the NSA whether it is routed through the USA or not. The NSA when it vacuums up all foreign communications (or at least as many as it can) has no way of knowing which involve Americans at one or both ends.

If my call from Germany goes through the US, it will carry routing information (as I understand it) that shows its end destination is not in the US but in Japan. Historically, FISA has not entered into these types of communications. It was designed for communications where one end is foreign and the other domestic. If law enforcement had reason to suspect the foreign end, it could begin a wiretap and go to the FISC for a validating warrant.

If related domestic to domestic surveillance was needed, law enforcement could go to a judge as they have for decades.

The illegal NSA program apparently involved scooping up all or a great number of foreign-domestic communications, some of which were targeted to specific individuals but others resulted from datamining of the communication streams.

Now the NSA wants changes to FISA to allow foreign-foreign communications which are routed through the US. I find this request bogus because neither end of the communication is domestic and the NSA can use routing information to verify that the communications are indeed foreign-foreign.

So what exactly is the NSA doing? My guess is they want to vacuum up not only foreign-foreign communications but foreign-domestic ones as well. And what should be noted, these could include domestic-domestic communications that are in part routed abroad (like the Blackberries that could begin with one individual in Washington, be routed to Canada, and returned to another user in Washington)

Otherwise I don’t see why NSA is making a fuss over massive foreign communications monitoring (sometimes involving US citizens) that they have been doing for decades.

Heather Wilson up.

Has there ever been a woman more inaptly named? Heather?

Market down 280.

(Sorry for the repost, EPU’d)

Not sure what Pelosi and Reid know that we don’t, but to all appearances they’re doing an excellent job of avoiding both (a) Recess appointments which would likely include but not necessarily be limited to Gonzo; (b) Premature approval of any dangerously bad FISA change; and (c) The Article II, Section 3 nightmare scenario I’ve been secretly dreading lo these many months (”[The President] may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper;”).

To spell it out: Assume Congress recesses. Assume Preznit calls them to convene under Art II Sec 3, ostensibly for the FISA issue. Now assume that even just one R-Senator blocks agreement on the adjournment. Then Preznit says “How ’bout December 15, 2008?” and according to Art II Sec 3, they have to accept it. Game over.

Whereas if Congress doesn’t adjourn for August Recess, there’s no window of vulnerability to this Art II Sec 3 scenario.

So here’s how I read today’s tea leaves: For both reasons (a) and (b) and (c), and despite recent public statements, Congressional Dems know it’s no summer vacation this year (Schumer: “We’re going to be here for a while.”). And BushCheneyCo know they know it. The terrist threat chatter specifically threatening the Capitol can be seen as a pressure tactic to get Congress out of the building, but clearly the Dems aren’t buying. So no recess. So now BushCheneyCo and the Dems are each engaging in public Kabuki to make it appear that staying in session is their own idea, that the other side isn’t the one calling the shots.

So looks to me like sort of a balance of power, holding off some Seriously Bad Stuff.

(Guess Congress could convene somewhere other than the Capitol if it turns out to be genuinely too risky there.)

(BTW House R’s now trying awful hard to get adjournment!)

Hmmm.

anangryoldbroad @ 35

So,if the judge ruled this illegal,and Bush went ahead and did it anyway,wouldn’t that be a CRIME???

That’s right. In the old days they used to call it a “high crime.” You could look it up (article II, section 4).

Awwwwright all y’all Oklahoma patriots step right up and show how much more patriotic you are than your neighbors and buy your super-uber-alles-patriot War on Tearra (TM) license plates [/snark]

Why is the President allowed to break the law?

Wilson, R-NM: Now going to say how bad the bill is that the Dems are asking for.

This bill will worsen our security…this legislation will continue to need a warrant for foreign persons in foreign countries…what’s wrong with that?

Saying that we should go back to what original FISA leg originally said, which is fine except that Bush hasn’t been following those rules either.

The problem was known about for some time…was it known about when the GOP was in charge??? Of course it was but they wouldn’t care then because they were doing what they wanted to anyway.

They are going to kill us by usiong our own technology.

Just another case of give these people what they wat and they demand more…bipartisanship=weakness with these people

Yep, date rape, as Grover Norquist called it.

T- @ 19

James @ 10
Don’t forget 30328 and 30327 in Atlanta. Buckhead and Sandy Springs are as red as it gets.

Roswell home of Tom Price 30075

Just got back – now how come the WH is trotting out that old saw about, “agents can’t be sitting around waiting for a warrant in this age of instant communications”?

Harman is getting it right – they don’t need to wait… this is BS!

Hmmm. @ 40

…The Article II, Section 3 nightmare scenario I’ve been secretly dreading lo these many months (”[The President] may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper;”).

To spell it out: Assume Congress recesses. Assume Preznit calls them to convene under Art II Sec 3, ostensibly for the FISA issue. Now assume that even just one R-Senator blocks agreement on the adjournment. Then Preznit says “How ’bout December 15, 2008?” and according to Art II Sec 3, they have to accept it. Game over.

Then he doesn’t get any appropriations. Game over.

Hastings: we all served on that committee and I think she knows that we know that there is no fix that she has suggested here.

Harman D-CA: This bill hr3356 on p2 sec 105A: court order not needed for acquisition of any court order for conversations not gathered w/i US. Foreign to foreign commo will be exempt

The real issue is whether or not we will have a court approve the parametetrs of the entire progrm or if we leave it to the AG or perhaps the AG working with the DNi. Some of us know the details and it’s valuable and has many ddfft parts, I thought it was being regulated under FIOSA until I knew admin chose not to follow FISA

GordonM @ 48

Hmmm. @ 40

…The Article II, Section 3 nightmare scenario I’ve been secretly dreading lo these many months (”[The President] may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper;”).

To spell it out: Assume Congress recesses. Assume Preznit calls them to convene under Art II Sec 3, ostensibly for the FISA issue. Now assume that even just one R-Senator blocks agreement on the adjournment. Then Preznit says “How ’bout December 15, 2008?” and according to Art II Sec 3, they have to accept it. Game over.

Then he doesn’t get any appropriations. Game over.

Why does he need appropriations? The Treasury Dept (IRS & debt issuing) is part of the Executive. W’s broken every other law. He’d just keep spendingwhatever he felt like without any appropriations bills.

why do the pugs keep invoking “our troops” and “their enemy”?

I’m totally with Russ Feingold on this:

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003849.php

“I don’t feel the need to get out of here. I would much rather stay here than have us make a terrible mistake,” said Feingold, who has made a name for himself as a champion on civil liberties in the Senate. “This is not the kind of thing that should be done on the fly, and I am prepared to stay here as long as it takes to fix it. Or, if they need force this through, I’m not going to make it easy, if they don’t make it better.”

As I wrote to my congresscritters this a.m.,

“If an amendment must be passed, the least Congress should do is take the time to parse every word of it. Better yet, hold it in Committee until the White House stops stonewalling on the many subpoenas it has received. It’s time to play hardball. “

So I don’t get it. It is ruled secretly that the expanding surveillance program was illegal, but kept secret, and remained secret. Why did it remain secret for so long?

From the Post article:

A federal intelligence court judge earlier this year secretly declared a key element of the Bush administration’s wiretapping efforts illegal, according to a lawmaker and government sources, providing a previously unstated rationale for fevered efforts by congressional lawmakers this week to expand the president’s spying powers.

AND just so we understand what part was illegal:

The judge, whose name could not be learned, concluded early this year that the government had overstepped its authority in attempting to broadly surveil communications between two locations overseas that are passed through routing stations in the United States, according to two other government sources familiar with the decision.

my own emphasis

GordonM @ 48:

Then he doesn’t get any appropriations. Game over.

If emergency powers are asserted, so what?

Hmmm.

Hugh @ 37 –

i don’t know what the real issues are here either. but mary has made a good guess over at tnh.

Hoekstra: are we going to involve the courts in reviewing our intel progrms? This becomes a errorist protection act if we do. Do we want to court reviewing our tactics as they relate to foreigners

PROTECTING THE HOMELAND MEIN FUHRER, that is what this is about

instead of taking action soldiers will have to call in the lawyers
Here comes the supporting the troops meme

Does it make sense for our intel folk to have to go to court when they get a lead?

(The first thing under FISA IIRC is to do what you need to do nd then 72 hours later you come back for the warrants. How does this hamper those efforts?)

Thew barriers will be put up keeping us from fighting terror.

Now using McConnell’s time with Clinton as an excuse that he’s good and the House proposal is unacceptable and would not allow me to cary out my responsibility and I want congress to support what I put forth last night

all of a sudden, serving Clinton is a good thing??

shorter Hoekstra, “Dems are a bunch of traitors and don’t want Americans to be safe!”

eCAHNomics @ 50

GordonM @ 48

Then he doesn’t get any appropriations. Game over.

Why does he need appropriations? The Treasury Dept (IRS & debt issuing) is part of the Executive. W’s broken every other law. He’d just keep spendingwhatever he felt like without any appropriations bills.

now that would be fun. grounds for impeachment, no doubt about it. October 1, he’s sunk without a bill from Congress to continue government spending. unless, of course, he declares martial law. which could also be grounds for impeachment.

The only thing I want to hear Nancy say is, “Bring it, bee-otch.” Let’s see who has to go pee-pee first, Publicans.

Tell Bush that the U.S. Congress will spend August in session if he is successful in ordering the Iraqi parliament to stay in session.

Spiffarino @ 60

The only thing I want to hear Nancy say is, “Bring it, bee-otch.” Let’s see who has to go pee-pee first, Publicans.

Absolutely!

Plame/CIA lawsuit

Judge sides with CIA in suit over Plame memoir
By Edith Honan

NEW YORK (Reuters) – The ex-spy whose unmasking led to the conviction of Vice President Dick Cheney’s top aide cannot disclose the dates she worked for the CIA because the details were never declassified, a federal judge has ruled.

The decision, made public on Friday by U.S. District Judge Barbara Jones, was a victory for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, which sought to block former agent Valerie Plame Wilson from including the dates in her upcoming memoir, “Fair Game.”

Plame, along with publisher Simon & Schuster, filed a lawsuit in May against Mike McConnell, the U.S. director of national intelligence, and CIA Director Michael Hayden, seeking to stop the CIA from interfering with publication of her book.

…

eCAHNomics @ 20

anangryoldbroad @ 9

Oh,and WTF is the deal with all these conservative “news”people meeting in private off the record with Bush the other day?

Someon at YK2 (maybe Hunter), had a long impassioned speech about how W was prez to only his half of the country, only spoke to it, and no other prez, including Ronnie, had ever done that. Once they becameprez, they spoke to all the people.

Well, ya know….
If he’s only president to his half of the country, let’s appoint a president to OUR half of the country since it has no representation! Taxation without representation – has a familiar ring to it. Anyone for tea?

selise, Thanks for these links.

TiredFed @ 59:

now that would be fun. grounds for impeachment, no doubt about it. October 1, he’s sunk without a bill from Congress to continue government spending. unless, of course, he declares martial law. which could also be grounds for impeachment.

But Congress would not be in session, so who would impeach?

Hmmm.

Hastings: Astounded that the GOP would have us believe something sdifft than what the proposal says.

The GOP wants the AG to be allowed to do this.

Reyes: wants to correct McConnell does not have 30 years in intel he has 40 years. We have been trying to work together in bipartisan way on this bill. McC asked us to do three things:
expand from terrorism to foreign intel
how FISA would eliminate warrant reqts from warrants
how warrants would be approved

After geting on the phoine with the WH and the GOP leadership he said, Oh there are a few other things I need/

This is serious business, We need to decide if we want to give the DNI the three things he said he needed in our bill while we work on a biger fix.

If u vote against you are not giving him the toools he need but u want it as a political tool.

DNI said yesterday that this bill signifciantly enhances America’s security. Wilson says we didn’t show it to DNI? His lawyers dissected it, Hoekstra was in the room while that was happening.

Do what;s right for our country

eCAHNomics @ 50

GordonM @ 48

Then he doesn’t get any appropriations. Game over.

Why does he need appropriations? The Treasury Dept (IRS & debt issuing) is part of the Executive. W’s broken every other law. He’d just keep spendingwhatever he felt like without any appropriations bills.

Debt limit will be reached in Sept. Not sure China and Japan would be happy to see their debtor behaving this way. Nor OPEC. Or Wall St. Which means Daddy wouldn’t like it either, and Babs might get upset.

Hugh @ 37

A few of my thoughts,

I seriously do not understand the present FISA controversy and let me explain why. If I an American am in Germany and call a friend also an American in Japan, there is a high likelihood that my call will be swept up by the NSA whether it is routed through the USA or not. The NSA when it vacuums up all foreign communications (or at least as many as it can) has no way of knowing which involve Americans at one or both ends.

If my call from Germany goes through the US, it will carry routing information (as I understand it) that shows its end destination is not in the US but in Japan. Historically, FISA has not entered into these types of communications. It was designed for communications where one end is foreign and the other domestic. If law enforcement had reason to suspect the foreign end, it could begin a wiretap and go to the FISC for a validating warrant.

If related domestic to domestic surveillance was needed, law enforcement could go to a judge as they have for decades.

The illegal NSA program apparently involved scooping up all or a great number of foreign-domestic communications, some of which were targeted to specific individuals but others resulted from datamining of the communication streams.

Now the NSA wants changes to FISA to allow foreign-foreign communications which are routed through the US. I find this request bogus because neither end of the communication is domestic and the NSA can use routing information to verify that the communications are indeed foreign-foreign.

So what exactly is the NSA doing? My guess is they want to vacuum up not only foreign-foreign communications but foreign-domestic ones as well. And what should be noted, these could include domestic-domestic communications that are in part routed abroad (like the Blackberries that could begin with one individual in Washington, be routed to Canada, and returned to another user in Washington)

Otherwise I don’t see why NSA is making a fuss over massive foreign communications monitoring (sometimes involving US citizens) that they have been doing for decades.

Yes.

Wash, rinse, repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and …

It is about doing the right thing. I have a statement:

I have reviewed the proposal and it is unacceptable. Would not allow me to provide my responsibility to carry out my duties.

What appears to be happening here is that McConnell is changing the events and since the Democrats did not have anyone taking notes there is no record of what happened

Hastings: Republican logic allows that what was acceptable yesterday is not acceptable today. I do not yield.

I have an amendment to the rule; three a bill to authorize emergency repsairs to the I-35 bridge

Hmmm. @ 66

TiredFed @ 59:

now that would be fun. grounds for impeachment, no doubt about it. October 1, he’s sunk without a bill from Congress to continue government spending. unless, of course, he declares martial law. which could also be grounds for impeachment.

But Congress would not be in session, so who would impeach?

Hmmm.

the greater question would be;

“grounds for impeachemt?, so what, we have dozens already”

Hmmm. @ 66

TiredFed @ 59:

now that would be fun. grounds for impeachment, no doubt about it. October 1, he’s sunk without a bill from Congress to continue government spending. unless, of course, he declares martial law. which could also be grounds for impeachment.

But Congress would not be in session, so who would impeach?

Hmmm.

definitely makes you want to go hmmmm. assuming no doomsday scenario (martial law, etc.), Congress is back in session on September 4th.

go get ‘em Alcee!

Hastings: would add a third susopension measure a bill to provide relief.

Would allow the House to consider the reconstruction funds.

While the minority has been engaging in manuftd obstructionism the house has enaced legislation to withdraw our tropps from harms way

The house hasn’t been able to act on emergency assistance to our citzens. zmanufactured obstructionism is what they are doing and it isn’t good for the people of America

Alcee is sticking his thumb in the eye of the pugs for obstruction….

Hastings: “manufactured obstructionism” – great phrasing & accurate.

TiredFed:

assuming no doomsday scenario (martial law, etc.), Congress is back in session on September 4th.

Depends on which date takes precedece, the ones each House set upon their voluntary adjournment, vs. the “Dec 15 2008″ date the Preznit sets under Art II Sec 3. I don’t know the answer to that, does anyone else here? I would note that under the scenario, the Preznit’s date would be the one most recently decided.

This is what I saw this morning, via the Washington Post:
First paragraph:

A federal intelligence court judge earlier this year secretly declared a key element of the Bush administration’s wiretapping efforts illegal, according to a lawmaker and government sources, providing a previously unstated rationale for fevered efforts by congressional lawmakers this week to expand the president’s spying powers.

I read the first paragraph, then got called away ‘cuz I am at work!

But this did catch my attention later – besides the obviousness about Boehner…

The judge, whose name could not be learned, concluded early this year that the government had overstepped its authority in attempting to broadly surveil communications between two locations overseas that are passed through routing stations in the United States, according to two other government sources familiar with the decision.

And this was a laugh-out-loud line:

The decision was both a political and practical blow to the administration,

What’s the larger R picture here? They’re making a big fuss about FISA because they think that they still have a lead on the terrorism issue?

just because the Rs are against this bill, does make it a good bill.

i’m not happy that the dems are voting for it. WTF?

perris @ 71

Hmmm. @ 66

TiredFed @ 59:

But Congress would not be in session, so who would impeach?

Hmmm.

the greater question would be;

“grounds for impeachemt?, so what, we have dozens already”

what is Hugh’s list up to now? yeah, I know there are hundreds, but spending money without appropriations from Congress is prima facia evidence all by itself of an impeachable offense. No investigation/evidence needed. One day after ordering Treasury to print Federal paychecks (including military paychecks), he could be impeached by the House. violating a straightforward Constitutional restriction would be too much even for Republicans (well, maybe not all of them, but at least 17 of them).

eCAHNomics @ 79

What’s the larger R picture here? There making a big fuss about FISA because they think that they still have a lead on the terrorism issue?

I think they are trying to regain the upper hand on the terror issue.

one bourbon, one scotch, one Boehneer….

Adopting the resolution: Sessions wants the yeas and nays.

And now electornic recoirding

OK what is happening here: This is a good example of what will always happen when you don’t have a stenographer in the room when there are GOP and DEm people making bipartisan decisions.
It will always be he said, she said and that’s why Bush and Co want off the record interviews…so they can obfucate later on and then produce some paper from one of the participants, a partisan participant i Might add, who will support their side of the story.

This is where we are, it is where we will continue to be, the GOP is more concerned with winning points and obstructing than the Democrats are with defending the constitution and our system of government.

Hastings got it completely right and even though I don’t support this bill, I think the provision that a FISA judge review the wrrants and issue them is heads and shoulders above letting little Alberto Gonzales do the job. He is a serial perjurer and cannot be trusted. On that the Dems are corect and I think that is the language the GOP is trying to get inserted.

eCAHNomics @ 79

What’s the larger R picture here? There making a big fuss about FISA because they think that they still have a lead on the terrorism issue?

guesses:

1) cya for administration law breaking.
2) trying to wedge issue the dems from their base
3) ???

James @ 10

TX 79072 (Plainview)
TX 79041 (Hale Center, same county)
19th Congressional district – Randy Neugebauer.

Pete Laney used to be the state leg for this area. Good guy, Democrat (Texas style). The GOoPers tried hard to run him out, starting in 1994, and couldn’t do it.

so – are they now voting on the FISA? which version?

eCAHNomics @ 79

What’s the larger R picture here? There making a big fuss about FISA because they think that they still have a lead on the terrorism issue?

Since they were for it yesterday but not today; it means that Rove pulled out the folders that he’s keeping on the Repubs.

OldCoastie @ 87

so – are they now voting on the FISA? which version?

I think that they are voting on whether or not they can attach other bills to the FISA one.

Hmmm. @ 77

TiredFed:

assuming no doomsday scenario (martial law, etc.), Congress is back in session on September 4th.

Depends on which date takes precedece, the ones each House set upon their voluntary adjournment, vs. the “Dec 15 2008″ date the Preznit sets under Art II Sec 3. I don’t know the answer to that, does anyone else here? I would note that under the scenario, the Preznit’s date would be the one most recently decided.

well, if they are in session, they can impeach. if he Adjourns them, they can simply come back into session on their own based on what was in place before he called them into special session. they can even investigate impeachment issues in committee while in recess.

JPL @ 89

OldCoastie @ 87

so – are they now voting on the FISA? which version?

I think that they are voting on whether or not they can attach other bills to the FISA one.

thanks – there are always so many hoops to jump through!

JPL @ 88

eCAHNomics @ 79

What’s the larger R picture here? There making a big fuss about FISA because they think that they still have a lead on the terrorism issue?

Since they were for it yesterday but not today; it means that Rove pulled out the folders that he’s keeping on the Repubs.

the more they submit to this adminsitration the smaller their chances of re election and they know it too

this is scary to me since in my mind the only way they can go along with the president is if they knew elections weren’t going to matter and they would stay in office regardless

selise @80

I’m with you!

TiredFed @ 90

Hmmm. @ 77

TiredFed:

Depends on which date takes precedece, the ones each House set upon their voluntary adjournment, vs. the “Dec 15 2008″ date the Preznit sets under Art II Sec 3. I don’t know the answer to that, does anyone else here? I would note that under the scenario, the Preznit’s date would be the one most recently decided.

well, if they are in session, they can impeach. if he Adjourns them, they can simply come back into session on their own based on what was in place before he called them into special session. they can even investigate impeachment issues in committee while in recess.

That would work well, because the Dems have said they haven’t had the time to investigate impeachment, since it takes away from other legislation.

eCAHNomics @ 78

What’s the larger R picture here? There making a big fuss about FISA because they think that they still have a lead on the terrorism issue?

The larger picture is the want to exclude judges from the process entirely thereby allowing the AG, any AG, to be the final arbiter when it comes to approving warrants. I wouldn’t put it past them to forge warrants for illegal acts they’ve done in the past (see wordsmithatwork@77) letting AGAG backdate warrants for the period during which Bush has been breaking the law.

This is all about allowing the AG to decide who gets surveilled without any oversight from any other branch of government. At least now there’s a semblance of oversight with the FISA court.

And this whole thing of immedicay is a crock of shit also. The FISA act allows wiretaps immediately. The only restriction is that you report the tap within 72 hours of its inception. No problem there unless u are wiretapping o many fucking people that you can’t churn out the notifications fast enough to comply with the time limits OR you are surveilling people you aren’t supposed to.

Also using switching stations here in the states to tap foreign conversations raises the possibilities that other conversations will be swept up. Do u trust these people to ignore them or do u thing they’ll go into Poindexter’s TIA data-mining operation?

Perhaps if we paid Congress time and a half overtime for staying in August, they might do it.

Reid not answering the question if Abu is going to have authority to authorize wiretaps…

now, he might just be being cagey…

now speaking out on how little confidence they have in him.

N=1

whatever happened this week? i’ve been watching for an update, but haven’t seen one! you have been in my thoughts, hoping you are ok.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 95

Perhaps if we paid Congress time and a half overtime for staying in August, they might do it.

I would not give to them what they legislated away from American workers…it’s bad enough we cover their health care needs. Wanna bet they don’t have a friggin co-pay?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 96

Perhaps if we paid Congress time and a half overtime for staying in August, they might do it.

Hmm. If Mdm. Palfrey made House calls?

LS @ 94:

That would work well, because the Dems have said they haven’t had the time to investigate impeachment, since it takes away from other legislation.

That fits with Pelosi and Reid now totally showboating their achievements in getting their legislative agenda completed.

Both sides telegraphing they’re ready to get down to brass tacks now.

Hmmm.

Oklahoma @ 96

I thought they were already thebest Congress thatMONEY could buy. Let’s call it a ‘perk’!

Pelosi says Abu is completely discredited as arbiter of FISA..

go Nancy!

james @ 95

The larger picture is the want to exclude judges from the process entirely thereby allowing the AG, any AG, to be the final arbiter when it comes to approving warrants. I wouldn’t put it past them to forge warrants for illegal acts they’ve done in the past (see wordsmithatwork@77) letting AGAG backdate warrants for the period during which Bush has been breaking the law.

This may be too obvious to point out, but if W wants Congress to pass legislation to let AGAG be the arbiter of who gets surveilled, wasn’t it a bad idea for AGAG to blow off Congress re USAs?

Where can you find a job for around $160,000 per year for a three to four day work week? And get two months off every year along with full medical, dental and eye care. And perks! The U.S. Congress. That’s where.

perris @ 92

JPL @ 88

Since they were for it yesterday but not today; it means that Rove pulled out the folders that he’s keeping on the Repubs.

the more they submit to this adminsitration the smaller their chances of re election and they know it too

this is scary to me since in my mind the only way they can go along with the president is if they knew elections weren’t going to matter and they would stay in office regardless

A friend this morning called because she had read an article in THE NEW YORKER that pretty much says that if California changes the winner takes all for Presidential elections, then Repubs can count on a large pickup in the electoral college. With all the gerrymandering in states now, it’s not a feasible approach.

OKK — if they’re doing the job that needs to be done, they’re underpaid. Unfortunately — and as we’ve seen over the last six years — too many of them are not.

Oklahoma @ 105

Well, you know that I’d vote for you.

dmac @ 98

N=1

whatever happened this week? i’ve been watching for an update, but haven’t seen one! you have been in my thoughts, hoping you are ok.

Thanks – am in temp digs ( a bunch of young fellas who can’t believe the aged old crone who occasionally appears between trips into and out of NY (One solicitously got out his French press so I could have coffee before I went through major withdrawal), and cats and dogs got a reprieve through this weekend, but still no final job offer, no apt to move to and no place for any of the pets (although irons are in the fire for a couple of them). Have had three interviews and go back for another on Tues – really appreciate, but despise the Chinese buses – can’t sit still – especially without the ‘net – for 4-5 hours *g*.

more analysis at balkinization – this time from JB. it begins:

Marty’s summary of the proposed “FISA fix” explains that both civil libertarians and the White House are unhappy with the bill the Democrats have produced through negotiations with Mike McConnell. In fact, there are several worrisome features about the bill from a civil liberties perspective. But in this post I want to point out four things that the White House clearly doesn’t like.

gotta go to the link to see the four things JB thinks that the administration doesn’t like.

TiredFed @ 90:

if he Adjourns them, they can simply come back into session on their own based on what was in place before he called them into special session. they can even investigate impeachment issues in committee while in recess.

I sincerely hope that you’re right about that. I also sincerely hope you won’t be offended if I ask whether anybody here can find a cite to law or reported decision that confirms that interpretation. (As opposed to the adjournment date the Preznit sets under Art II Sec 3 controlling.)

you know I am pissed off the president is getting us to give him another pass

when didn’t want to fund his war he stamped his feet and we funded his war

now that he’s getting discovered that he’s stealing our information he stamps his feet and we give him license to steal some more

this is bizzare

the democrats should have said

this president can’t be serious, he refuses to submit to our oversite and he wants us to give him more power to steal our information?

what kind of fools does he take us for?

when the president submits to the requirements of oversite and proves to us he has not been stealing from the American public, then we will possibly add more fisa authority”

If shrub insists on holding Congress hostage from their break to pass his stalking fetish, the Dems should use the time to try Rove, Harriet, Bolton for contempt. This is an opportunity :)

This whole FISA thing has never been about the immediate need to have action taken. When you’re in the field and something needs to be done, you do it. If yopu think there’s a gun in a room with a bunch of kids what do you do, leave the gun until you get a warrant or enter the premises, remove the kids and find the gun knowing that in any subsequent prosecutioon for possession it might be thrown out becsuse of the search?

This is about Bush tapping phones and intercepting conversations and probably all sorts of emails and wireless communications when he had no right to do it. He wsn’t about to follow FISA because #1 the sheer number of illegal taps was just too much to submit notifications on and #2 I would imagine most of them were illegal even under FISA so no notification could be made without owning up to criminal acts early in the administration.

This is government under the Bush regime

Fine by me–no problem with his constitutional authority to call Congress into session. Come to think of it, this may be the first constitutional thing he’s done…

This is OT, but I didn’t know where else to post it. For years the American Society of Civil Engineers has been giving the nation a report card, and as of the last one, 2005, we had a D-average. Take a look. ASCE Infrastructure Report Card

sofistic @ 116

This is OT, but I didn’t know where else to post it. For years the American Society of Civil Engineers has been giving the nation a report card, and as of the last one, 2005, we had a D-average. Take a look. ASCE Infrastructure Report Card

Geez, looks like we coulda used the money on this f*cking, ill-begotten war for, oh – I don’t know OUR infrastructure instead of blowing Iraq’s.

casual observer @ 115:

It’s not the call to session that’s the problem, it’s the adjournment to any date the Preznit wants that’s the problem. (Unless TiredFed is right, which I hope he is.)

sofistic @ 116

Most interesting and useful. Thank you

Hmmm. @ 111

TiredFed @ 90:

if he Adjourns them, they can simply come back into session on their own based on what was in place before he called them into special session. they can even investigate impeachment issues in committee while in recess.

I sincerely hope that you’re right about that. I also sincerely hope you won’t be offended if I ask whether anybody here can find a cite to law or reported decision that confirms that interpretation. (As opposed to the adjournment date the Preznit sets under Art II Sec 3 controlling.)

no worries. IANAL, just a longtime Fed. we may have to wait for lhp or Christy to come back from Chicago, though. I have heard that Article I trumps Article II, so my guess is that Congress can simply call itself into session any time they want to.

james, thanks for the liveblogging, no cspan here……..

Geeze, it’s sure a firey Friday in the House.

Blub @ 113

If shrub insists on holding Congress hostage from their break to pass his stalking fetish, the Dems should use the time to try Rove, Harriet, Bolton for contempt. This is an opportunity :)

yes, and inherent contempt is the way to go. someone please tell Nancy.

Simply put, it was probably judged illegal because
of sheer lack of probable cause.

They hoover up overseas calls and then,
apply the guilt-by-association-algorithm,

Shorter FISA: Everyone in your Fav 5….

I fear my own government far more than foreigners right now. Abuse of power and surveillance used on all of us while we are led into preemptive needless wars based on lies/falsified/forged intelligence and stolen elections are far more than enough reasons for concern and I fear it is all related.

Laws are being broken and civil liberties and the constitution are all but forgotten.

Screw terror.. I want liberty honored most of all.

As I recall, this is hardly the first time Boner’s spilled the beans on something the administration was up to. Subconscious guilt on his part, or mere stupidity?

Steve Pordon @ 126

As I recall, this is hardly the first time Boner’s spilled the beans on something the administration was up to. Subconscious guilt on his part, or mere stupidity?

The Latter.

The bottom line on the FISA bill – NO Democrat should be supporting it, in its present state or as the GOP wants it amended.

The bill is an infringement on the Fourth Amendment and violates the provision of the Bill of Rights that says no warrants shall issue except for probable cause having been established. The FISA court was a bad idea when it was first instituted back in the 70s, it’s a bad idea now.

What Bush is trying to do is to make the Democrats pass something that smells so bad they have to hold their noses but they can’t refuse because to do so would open them up to the charge of being soft on terrorism.

The amended bill that the GOP wants and that Bush is demanding after an apparent compromise was obtained between the Democratic leadership and the DNI requires that the Democrats stop holding their noses.

It’s as simple as that. Bush wants them to smell what they are trying to get the American people to buy so they cannot say it was anything but shit.

For those like myself who need a summary of what is going on with FISA, the President, Congress and McConnell see this helpful summary at TPM.

james @ 99

Oklahoma kiddo @ 95

Perhaps if we paid Congress time and a half overtime for staying in August, they might do it.

I would not give to them what they legislated away from American workers…it’s bad enough we cover their health care needs. Wanna bet they don’t have a friggin co-pay?

WORD!

If you sit down at the table and you don’t see a sucker, get up and leave, ’cause the sucker is you.

another benefit would be no interim appointments of USAs or judges. I really think its not a bad idea. re: adjournment, the president ain’t the boss of the congress. he can’t adjourn them iffin they don’t want to be adjourned.

Boston1775 @ 129

For those like myself who need a summary of what is going on with FISA, the President, Congress and McConnell see this helpful summary at TPM.

And we add to this an amendment to fund the fallen bridge in Minnesota.

TribeScribe @ 124

They hoover up overseas calls and then,
apply the guilt-by-association-algorithm,

Shorter FISA: Everyone in your Fav 5….

…hehe.. call a friend in London and, following from US v Padilla, say “zucchini” over and over again

The prez wanting to keep the Congress in session cannot be a Bush idea. Way too complicated for an infant. This has Rove written all over it. Strictly school-yard antics.

And – another thing, are people SO stupid that they don’t know or cannot figure out where their taxes go towards?

A woman in our department is so damned nonchalant about this bridge collapse, it’s unreal. She voted for Bush both times, in fact – STILL likes him (but we are in Idaho after all), and it’s almost as though “well those people shouldn’t have been on the bridge then.” Of course – did I not point out the fricking obvious that the Boise River runs right thru the midst of our town (just about) and MOST of us have to cross that river at some point to get home or to & from work. Ourselves included.

This is about the time I start feeling like I’m all three of the Three Stooges – self flagellating, little squeaks, grunts, & moans emitting, kicking & thumping.

Boston1775 @ 129

For those like myself who need a summary of what is going on with FISA, the President, Congress and McConnell see this helpful summary at TPM.

very good – thank you! interesting that McConnell reached agreement but the shrub nixed it because it doesn’t give Fredo enough power…

Oklahoma kiddo @ 135

The prez wanting to keep the Congress in session cannot be a Bush idea. Way too complicated for an infant. This has Rove written all over it. Strictly school-yard antics.

’spose it’s some sort of “reverse psychology”?

Steve Pordon @ 126

As I recall, this is hardly the first time Boner’s spilled the beans on something the administration was up to. Subconscious guilt on his part, or mere stupidity?

I vote ‘mere stupidity’

OldCoastie @ 138

Oklahoma kiddo @ 135

The prez wanting to keep the Congress in session cannot be a Bush idea. Way too complicated for an infant. This has Rove written all over it. Strictly school-yard antics.

’spose it’s some sort of “reverse psychology”?

Yes, with lots of irony.

sofistic @ 127

Steve Pordon @ 126

As I recall, this is hardly the first time Boner’s spilled the beans on something the administration was up to. Subconscious guilt on his part, or mere stupidity?

The Latter.

“Never attribute to mendacity, what can be explained by stupididty.” R. M. Nixon.

And as to Rep. Crybaby John the Bonerbrain… what a leader. This man, with his aplomb should round out the 2008 ticket with Rudy.

N=1 at 109 says=”Thanks – am in temp digs ( a bunch of young fellas who can’t believe the aged old crone who occasionally appears between trips into and out of NY (One solicitously got out his French press so I could have coffee before I went through major withdrawal), and cats and dogs got a reprieve through this weekend, but still no final job offer, no apt to move to and no place for any of the pets (although irons are in the fire for a couple of them). Have had three interviews and go back for another on Tues – really appreciate, but despise the Chinese buses – can’t sit still – especially without the ‘net – for 4-5 hours *g*.”

oh good……..three interviews, and a call-back……..good……..i’ll keep thinking good thoughts for you………french press coffee-you’re livin’ large! hang in there.

President Bush bailed on a bipartisan agreement worked out with McConnell on the FISA restructuring.

McConnell has no comment on Bush’s backing out on support for something McConnell, himself, found satisfactory.

WHAT is Bush doing, that McConnell may not know about, which would cause him to back out on the Republicans who worked on this as well as McConnell?

OldCoastie @ 138

Oklahoma kiddo @ 135

The prez wanting to keep the Congress in session cannot be a Bush idea. Way too complicated for an infant. This has Rove written all over it. Strictly school-yard antics.

’spose it’s some sort of “reverse psyhcology”?

I don’t think it’s complicated at all–the president actually, really, believes that wiretapping the bejesus out of everybody is critically important. But these damn judges keep telling him that it’s pretty much illegal to do it. So he has no choice but to give Congress the time to hammer out a FISA compromise. And with old Feingold keeping an eagle eye on it, it may take quite some time, as I beleive Feingold has been quoted as saying that the Rockefeller version sucks, and the republican version sucks even more. Whole lotta suckage going on, according to Russ.

A Republican leaks classified information to score political points? Shocked, I tell you, I’m shocked!

hah! Cavuto’s on Fox telling us not to worry about bridges, because the odds are infinitesmally small that we’ll die in a falling bridge, but terrorists “plan to kill hundreds of thousands” of Americans.. so that’s where our priorities should be. Go Fox!

N=1 @ 109

Good to hear sorta good news: hang on and hang in. You and the sweet critters.

And BTW, I’m thinkin’ those young fellas are blessed to have some good ‘ole crone energy around whether they grok it or not. Good on ‘em for providing coffee. And with that I rest my case.

All the best.

I’m getting more furious by the sec.
Bush is committing crimes and the dems are working to give him more power? Here’s a thought, how about reining him in? Why do they feel obligated to change the law to his liking? Didn’t understand when it was financing the war, don’t understand it now.

p.s. I miss everyone.

james @ 128

What Bush is trying to do is to make the Democrats pass something that smells so bad they have to hold their noses but they can’t refuse because to do so would open them up to the charge of being soft on terrorism.

(emphasis mine)

this is the part where I wish they would
say, no, I’m firm on the constitution –
4th amendment specifically.

they already have a court ruling blocking a part of it to back them up.

wtf, what on earth is the problem here?

this is what royally pisses me off.
it’s so obvious. it is appalling how
we keep debating on their terms,
giving credence to their terms.

Someone CALL BULL and friggin defend
our Constitution. K.I.S.S!!

oh good……..three interviews, and a call-back……..good……..i’ll keep thinking good thoughts for you………french press coffee-you’re livin’ large! hang in there.

Have you ever seen a kitchen shared by six just out of college fellas? *g* I am cleaning my way into the fridge and next up I’ll put on a blindfold and tackle the stove *g*!

marymccurnin @ 11

I think that John Boehner used to date Lindsey Graham. Or they went to the same hair salon.

They just attended each other’s pajama parties. Mark Foley was their with his entourage. Rush Limpaugh was unable to bring his stable of Dominican boys into the country.

I’m outta here folks.

Going to see Chuck and Larry.

Have fun.

solai @ 149

I’m getting more furious by the sec.
Bush is committing crimes and the dems are working to give him more power? Here’s a thought, how about reining him in? Why do they feel obligated to change the law to his liking? Didn’t understand when it was financing the war, don’t understand it now.

p.s. I miss everyone.

Are you really that surprised by the Democrats in Congress? When will people realize there is a need for a real progressive party in this country. A party not wedded to the power elite.

N=1 @ 151

Have you ever seen a kitchen shared by six just out of college fellas? *g* I am cleaning my way into the fridge and next up I’ll put on a blindfold and tackle the stove *g*!

hey N=1, congrats on the interviews.
hope it works out –

WHY is the law optional for Bush and compulsory for everyone else?

Bluetoe @ 146

A Republican leaks classified information to score political points? Shocked, I tell you, I’m shocked!

Shocked and dismayed even.

Blub @ 147

hah! Cavuto’s on Fox telling us not to worry about bridges, because the odds are infinitesmally small that we’ll die in a falling bridge, but terrorists “plan to kill hundreds of thousands” of Americans.. so that’s where our priorities should be. Go Fox!

Perfect fear-mongering messaging to redirect the issue. Be afraid, be very afraid, but Bush will protect you (from terrists, not from failing infrastructure).

thanks for the live blogging James.

@ 117

sofistic @ 116

This is OT, but I didn’t know where else to post it. For years the American Society of Civil Engineers has been giving the nation a report card, and as of the last one, 2005, we had a D-average. Take a look. ASCE Infrastructure Report Card

Geez, looks like we coulda used the money on this f*cking, ill-begotten war for, oh – I don’t know OUR infrastructure instead of blowing Iraq’s.

“Spending our nation’s wealth over there, so we don’t have to spend it here.”

I don’t think it’s complicated at all–the president actually, really, believes that wiretapping the bejesus out of everybody is critically important.

That’s what Rove/Cheney are telling Bush and the fool believes them. In the meantime, they’re listening to Reid, Pelosi, Murtha and anyone else they damn well please. Those blackmail issues don’t just appear. You have to dig them up.

N=1 @ 151

See, now, if you keep that cleanin’ stuff up even the young fellas will realize how *cool* you really are … make sure they keep the coffee thing up (at least) in return!!

Terror (fear) in one hand.. liberty in the other..

I think I will choose liberty.

OT Ultimately sovereignty is inherent in the PEOPLE, but we must use it or lose it. By deending solely on the d’s, we are in essence,
putting all our begs in one ask it. Not wise.
Contingency plans? Any? Hope that they’ll finally get It is a wee bit risky, I’m thinking, and worry that while time should be our ally, waiting without alternative prospects severly limits us. I shall only point out that ‘these are (indeed) the times that try’ well, you know the rest. We may yet have to grab that thistle. Ouch!

BigMitch @ 160

@ 117

Geez, looks like we coulda used the money on this f*cking, ill-begotten war for, oh – I don’t know OUR infrastructure instead of blowing Iraq’s.

“Spending our nation’s wealth over there, so we don’t have to spend it here.”

The infrastructure is collapsing but by God Americans can puff up their chests and say unequivocally that our bathtubs are the best in the world. Perfect for drowning a government.

N=1 @ 151

oh good……..three interviews, and a call-back……..good……..i’ll keep thinking good thoughts for you………french press coffee-you’re livin’ large! hang in there.

Have you ever seen a kitchen shared by six just out of college fellas? *g* I am cleaning my way into the fridge and next up I’ll put on a blindfold and tackle the stove *g*!

oh my! they are so lucky to have you as a room mate!

hackworth @ 158

Blub @ 147

hah! Cavuto’s on Fox telling us not to worry about bridges, because the odds are infinitesmally small that we’ll die in a falling bridge, but terrorists “plan to kill hundreds of thousands” of Americans.. so that’s where our priorities should be. Go Fox!

Perfect fear-mongering messaging to redirect the issue. Be afraid, be very afraid, but Bush will protect you (from terrists, not from failing infrastructure).

But … but … but … failing infrastructure IS killing people this week … this year … for a few years now (Katrina) and the terrorists haven’t killed anyone lately …

Oklahoma kiddo @ 135

The prez wanting to keep the Congress in session cannot be a Bush idea. Way too complicated for an infant. This has Rove written all over it. Strictly school-yard antics.

Bush wants them in session while he heads for yet another month at the Bush Brush Ranch. He’d stay with them, but he’s gotta bring in this year’s Brush crop. A hard woking brush rancher never takes time off when it’s harvest time.

So, if there are upwards of 700 bridges in the country with the same problems as the Minnesota bridge, and should be replaced before another disaster occurs. How much money is it going to take to fix them all? The bill they are considering right now is for $200,000,000 to reconstruct that one bridge.

Iowa Caucus #’s: Obama 27%, Hill 26%, and, Edwards 26%!!!

Nancy Pelosi – excellent speech reaching out to each person in the House to work with one another to help Minnesota and to bring help to our country’s infrastructure which has been ignored.

Woot! Woot! GO GO Edwards!

LS @ 169

So, if there are upwards of 700 bridges in the country with the same problems as the Minnesota bridge, and should be replaced before another disaster occurs. How much money is it going to take to fix them all? The bill they are considering right now is for $200,000,000 to reconstruct that one bridge.

Why rebuild the bridge? Why not let Halliburton build a fleet of ferrys? More kleptocracy for the friends of the king.

Boston1775 @ 144

President Bush bailed on a bipartisan agreement worked out with McConnell on the FISA restructuring.

McConnell has no comment on Bush’s backing out on support for something McConnell, himself, found satisfactory.

WHAT is Bush doing, that McConnell may not know about, which would cause him to back out on the Republicans who worked on this as well as McConnell?

You are probably reading this correctly, i.e. Bush is doing some fuckery that McConnell doesn’t know about. But there are other possibilities. (1) He is creating a situation where Gonzo has to resign. Dems can’t talk about the stupidity of giving warrant authority to the A.G. without talking about the current A.G. the incomprarably incompetent A.G. (2) More of the Bush “We have nothing to sell but fear itself” strategery.

If Bush goes off to cut brush and orders Congress to stay in DC for August, and if some terror event occurs in DC, whose fault would that be? God forbid, of course.

Hmmm, so Boehner must have gotten the insta-declassification knighthood from his royal lowless too.

fdl reader @ 172

Woot! Woot! GO GO Edwards!

I’ll second that.

Bluetoe @ 165

BigMitch @ 160

“Spending our nation’s wealth over there, so we don’t have to spend it here.”

The infrastructure is collapsing but by God Americans can puff up their chests and say unequivocally that our bathtubs are the best in the world. Perfect for drowning a government.

Those foolish Minnasota residents should have each used their two-hundred dollar tax refunds to buy better bridges.

I like John Edwards as much as I dislike the other two.
I know where I stand with him.

LS @ 175

If Bush goes off to cut brush and orders Congress to stay in DC for August, and if some terror event occurs in DC, whose fault would that be? God forbid, of course.

impearch!

This is too great. I heard his threat today in the car: don’t go home/stay here/I said so. I think W doesn’t even get the disconnect that his pals refuse to even show up to answer a few questions about the program, can’t explain one program from another, and don’t ask any questions…but stay here and do what I tell you to do. I swear he sees no problem/absurdity/ arrogance in his demands. Yes, please. Let me go cut brush. At least he can have his way.

Hi everyone. I’m listening to a lecture by Sidney Blumenthal at YearlyKos on the old media and the new media.

Blumenthal: To the Washington Press Corps,
only Republican Power is real power. Media used to carry a light into dark corners so that the rest of the population would see realities.

The old model of main street journalism is dead and alternative media is taking over (blogging) The clash between msm & blogger is like a love/hate relationship. The media feel bloggers are taking away their industry and they are right. Online reporters are younger, internet savvy and quick to report a story. They MSM envy what the online community does and some real journalists are actually doing the right thing by joining us.

Mary McCurnin @ 179

I like John Edwards as much as I dislike the other two.
I know where I stand with him.

I like Kucinich, but I like Edwards much better than Hills and Obama.

eCAHNomics @ 177

fdl reader @ 172

Woot! Woot! GO GO Edwards!

I’ll second that.

Yeah, that’s gotta be good for everyone and everything in terms of advancing some sort of progressive rational dialogue. AND I’m really starting to like Edwards ~ especially at the uTubes where he actually looked at the screen with obvious emotion while all the other candidates looked down at their notes when the vets’ families spoke.

We need a real authentic feeling human being for a leader. Please!

This is Cheney’s work, not Rove’s. Certainly not that of DimDimmerDimmest Son.

I understood Speaker Pelosi to nix not only Gonzales, but any AG because of the separation of powers.

ccmask @ 182

Hi everyone. I’m listening to a lecture by Sidney Blumenthal at YearlyKos on the old media and the new media.

Blumenthal: To the Washington Press Corps,
only Republican Power is real power. Media used to carry a light into dark corners so that the rest of the population would see realities.

The old model of main street journalism is dead and alternative media is taking over (blogging) The clash between msm & blogger is like a love/hate relationship. The media feel bloggers are taking away their industry and they are right. Online reporters are younger, internet savvy and quick to report a story. They MSM envy what the online community does and some real journalists are actually doing the right thing by joining us.

Is there a video camera in there?

The MSM is dead! Long live the Blogs!

Yes, there is a video camera. Ezra Klein is now speaking.

So, I was out of town for one day. Went to Homer Alaska. Very beautiful. Plus, I needed the work. But I didn’t have any computer connectivity. 24 stinking hours. It’s amazing how little news you can hear if you are busy with a life. No, evening news, ’cause I had a dinner meeting. Local paper had a big spread on the bid news of the day: man caught a 7 foot halibut. No way you would know that our constitution, our democracy, and yes, our way of life is under attack.

Pups are so well informed, you forget how ignorant the great masses are.

The belief here is that the Speaker is focused.

Sidney just said to Rent the Netflix Movie:
Between the Lines

And I just met the Buzzflash, which is pretty cool. And his wife.

fdl reader @ 184

eCAHNomics @ 177

I’ll second that.

Yeah, that’s gotta be good for everyone and everything in terms of advancing some sort of progressive rational dialogue. AND I’m really starting to like Edwards ~ especially at the uTubes where he actually looked at the screen with obvious emotion while all the other candidates looked down at their notes when the vets’ families spoke.

We need a real authentic feeling human being for a leader. Please!

They had monitors on their podia. (Podiums?)

LS @ 169

So, if there are upwards of 700 bridges in the country with the same problems as the Minnesota bridge, and should be replaced before another disaster occurs. How much money is it going to take to fix them all? The bill they are considering right now is for $200,000,000 to reconstruct that one bridge.

So, in other words, for the difference between the 15% (the one they bought) and 35% (the one the rest of us have to use) tax rates on the income of two average hedge fund managers (each @ $500 mil income/year), we can get a new bridge?

Sounds fair to me.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

The belief here is that the Speaker is focused.

I believe the Speaker knows what she is doing and I support her efforts.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

The belief here is that the Speaker is focused.

on what though? i am not confident.

BigMitch: A very good friend of mine moved to Homer last year and she loves it!

BigMitch @ 189

So, I was out of town for one day. Went to Homer Alaska. Very beautiful. Plus, I needed the work. But I didn’t have any computer connectivity. 24 stinking hours. It’s amazing how little news you can hear if you are busy with a life. No, evening news, ’cause I had a dinner meeting. Local paper had a big spread on the bid news of the day: man caught a 7 foot halibut. No way you would know that our constitution, our democracy, and yes, our way of life is under attack.

Pups are so well informed, you forget how ignorant the great masses are.

The great masses are told only what the rulers want them to know. A 7′ halibut is easier to swallow than the trashing of the Constitution.

Yes, Bluetoe, and also easier to understand.

ha-ha! *ucker is leading with Yearly Kos!

hackworth @ 183

Mary McCurnin @ 179

I like John Edwards as much as I dislike the other two.
I know where I stand with him.

I like Kucinich, but I like Edwards much better than Hills and Obama.

Truthfully, I think the Democratic candidates are far more qualified than any of those dimwits across the way.

Christ, I’m even will to give Mike Gravel a stint before ‘Hills and Obama.’ I do NOT like having the two of these corporate hounds pushed and pushed onto us.

I like Kucinich; I like Edwards; I like Dodd; ….. I like Richardson. The four of them should come up with some workable team.

Pelosi is focused. She’s focused on what she thinks will advance her political career. Did you think she was focused on the Constitution?

Awaiting further evidence on Pelosi’s ‘focus’, otherwise I’m still with selise.

Tucker covering the Yearly Kos.

ccmask @ 182

Hi everyone. I’m listening to a lecture by Sidney Blumenthal at YearlyKos on the old media and the new media.

Blumenthal: To the Washington Press Corps,
only Republican Power is real power. Media used to carry a light into dark corners so that the rest of the population would see realities.

The old model of main street journalism is dead and alternative media is taking over (blogging) The clash between msm & blogger is like a love/hate relationship. The media feel bloggers are taking away their industry and they are right. Online reporters are younger, internet savvy and quick to report a story. They MSM envy what the online community does and some real journalists are actually doing the right thing by joining us.

if possible, tell him his article yesterday rocked. (scary sh*t, though)

Hahah, you know the more they attack Yearly Kos, the more people will just see for themselves and see that the people there are just like their neighbors. Which is great.

I wish there was -ANY- positive coverage of Yearly Kos from the giants of Fox and CNN.

Bluetoe @ 201

Pelosi is focused. She’s focused on what she thinks will advance her political career. Did you think she was focused on the Constitution?

Yes. I think she is focused on the Constitution.

Mitch, What has changed which would mean that he doesn’t need Gonzales as the firewall anymore?

OldCoastie @ 194

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

The belief here is that the Speaker is focused.

I believe the Speaker knows what she is doing and I support her efforts.

to pass this sucky fisa bill?

seriously, why? ‘cuz she’s doing something about the HJC contempt vote? ‘cuz she will let conyers put impeachment back on the table? ‘cuz she’s doing such a great job ending the iraq occupation (and didn’t fund the escalation?). ‘cuz of h.con.r.21? ‘cuz of her secret trade deal with bush? ‘cuz that was such an awesome energy bill? ‘cuz she’s constrained bush/cheney et al.’s lawlessness in any way?

do i really need to keep adding to the list?

Old Coastie, if she were focused on the Constitution, impeachment wouldn’t be off the table. There is a Constitutional crisis and impeachment is the cure.

BigMitch @ 189

So, I was out of town for one day. Went to Homer Alaska. Very beautiful. Plus, I needed the work. But I didn’t have any computer connectivity. 24 stinking hours. It’s amazing how little news you can hear if you are busy with a life. No, evening news, ’cause I had a dinner meeting. Local paper had a big spread on the bid news of the day: man caught a 7 foot halibut. No way you would know that our constitution, our democracy, and yes, our way of life is under attack.

Pups are so well informed, you forget how ignorant the great masses are.

If I had a 7 ft. Halibut I’d be happy to be ignorant for a long time . . . that’s some GREAT fish to have that much of!! I used to cut up 40 lb. one’s, a seven footer HAS to be more than a 100 lbs.!!!

(dreaming of hard wood grilled halibut with Avocado Glacage and slivered buttered carrots)

I had a reunion with our old rock and roll band in Homer. (the lead guitarist lived there). Nice place. We saw fireweed all along the coast as we were flying in from Anchorage. The locals made fireweed honey from it. Had that and fresh caught halibut for dinner several nights in a row. Saw a mama moose and calf walking down the middle of the street; natives paid no attention. Mmmm.

Hmmm…There is talk of congressional terror:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0807/444552.html

new thread.

FYI, Donita is upstairs

BobbyG @ 55 on a past thread. Here is Senor Lott spoutin, “Be afraid, be very afraid if you don’t pass the terrorist hogwash.”

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003851.php

selise @ 195

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

The belief here is that the Speaker is focused.

on what though? i am not confident.

Enhancing the Democratic majority. Electing a Democratic President. Passing good legislation. Bush, Cheney, Rove and some others.;0)

BigMitch @ 192

Aw, shucks: I *still* like Edwards …

Boston1775 @ 186

ccmask @ 182

Hi everyone. I’m listening to a lecture by Sidney Blumenthal at YearlyKos on the old media and the new media.

Blumenthal: To the Washington Press Corps,
only Republican Power is real power. Media used to carry a light into dark corners so that the rest of the population would see realities.

The old model of main street journalism is dead and alternative media is taking over (blogging) The clash between msm & blogger is like a love/hate relationship. The media feel bloggers are taking away their industry and they are right. Online reporters are younger, internet savvy and quick to report a story. They MSM envy what the online community does and some real journalists are actually doing the right thing by joining us.

Is there a video camera in there?

Here’s the live stream link:
http://ustream.tv/channel/year…..ntion-2007

LS @ 210

Hmmm…There is talk of congressional terror:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0807/444552.html

What do Bush and Cheney have up their sleeves?

scribe @ 193

LS @ 169

So, if there are upwards of 700 bridges in the country with the same problems as the Minnesota bridge, and should be replaced before another disaster occurs. How much money is it going to take to fix them all? The bill they are considering right now is for $200,000,000 to reconstruct that one bridge.

So, in other words, for the difference between the 15% (the one they bought) and 35% (the one the rest of us have to use) tax rates on the income of two average hedge fund managers (each @ $500 mil income/year), we can get a new bridge?

Sounds fair to me.

There ya go!

I’ll try oddmommy.

OldCoastie @ 194:

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

The belief here is that the Speaker is focused.

I believe the Speaker knows what she is doing and I support her efforts.

Me three. (Actually four or more I guess, depending on how many are with OK.)

Bluetoe @ 218

LS @ 210

Hmmm…There is talk of congressional terror:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0807/444552.html

What do Bush and Cheney have up their sleeves?

Continuity.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 215

selise @ 195

on what though? i am not confident.

Enhancing the Democratic majority. Electing a Democratic President. Passing good legislation. Bush, Cheney, Rove and some others.;0)

i’ll give you the first two. but that is not enough.

If the Speaker were only interested in her career she would be doing impeachment of Bush and Cheney. I think if these two little power-boys were gone that would put the Speaker in the Oval Office.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 224

If the Speaker were only interested in her career she would be doing impeachment of Bush and Cheney. I think if these two little power-boys were gone that would put the Speaker in the Oval Office.

that would not happen. it would be a caretaker R (like ford).

i do believe she is doing what she thinks are in the Ds best interest for nov. 2008. i think she is wrong (morally and practically).

here are two takes i mostly agree with:

1. anti-war folks.

Newswise — The Democratic Party stands to lose the 2008 presidential election unless it takes a stronger stand against the Iraq war, a University of Florida researcher says.

The loose coalition of groups opposed to American involvement in the Iraq war, which helped defeat Republicans in the 2006 midterm elections, is considerably less sympathetic to the Democrats and plans massive protests at the party’s national convention next summer in Denver, said Michael T. Heaney, a political science professor.

“We see a very clear shift in the anti-war movement against the Democratic Party just in the last couple of months,” said Heaney, who has written an article on anti-war activists that appears in the July edition of American Politics Research journal. “And the basic reason for that is the anti-war forces are very disappointed that the Democrats have not kept their promise to bring the troops home, which was their mandate after the 2006 election.”

2. glenn greenwald.

Gator90

Isn’t it the fact of the matter that the Democrats’ strategy is to run out the clock on the Bush presidency while being just oppositional enough to keep the base sullen instead of mutinous, avoid the terrifying political risks of mounting any genuine challenge to despotic powers asserted by a despised president, hope that Bush leaves office without blowing up the world first, and hope that he is replaced by a Democrat or at least by a less despotic Republican, such that the present constitutional crisis can fade away without anyone having to do anything that might significantly upset the status quo?

It is hard to reach any other conclusion.

I think the same exact thinking applies to Iraq. Most Democrats in Congress don’t REALLY want to force the end of the war. They want to appear to oppose the war but have it linger on, so that when 2008 rolls around, the public is just as angry as the Republicans as they were in 2006 and punishes them by electing the “anti-war” Democrats.

– GlennGreenwald

OFF TOPIC, but EXCELLENT:

Libby’s fine check bounced.
per AP and a diary over at Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..73951/4447

scribe @ 227

OFF TOPIC, but EXCELLENT:

Libby’s fine check bounced.
per AP and a diary over at Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..73951/4447

Serious oops! I bit on a gag.

Sorry about that.

scribe @ 228

scribe @ 227

OFF TOPIC, but EXCELLENT:

Libby’s fine check bounced.
per AP and a diary over at Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..73951/4447

Serious oops! I bit on a gag.

Sorry about that.

707!

Going to read now but I thought it was a cashiers check.

scribe @ 227

After I saw that up, I spent a few minutes looking for it on AP wires. Decided it wasn’t real, because it wasn’t showing up – and it’s something that newspapers probably would notice.

Ahh – sometimes you see what you want to see, and don’t read closely enough.

BigMitch @ 178

Bluetoe @ 165

The infrastructure is collapsing but by God Americans can puff up their chests and say unequivocally that our bathtubs are the best in the world. Perfect for drowning a government.

Those foolish Minnasota residents should have each used their two-hundred dollar tax refunds to buy better bridges.

Gee Big Mitch,
From Alaska with bridges to nowhere.*G*

Boehner -privileged res now on C-span calling out Pelosi on “Most ethical house ever”, Calling out Hoyer, NOW!!!

Nasty stuff to be read into the record, should set off some serious fireworks. These should be pretty some good Friday Fights.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 224

If the Speaker were only interested in her career she would be doing impeachment of Bush and Cheney. I think if these two little power-boys were gone that would put the Speaker in the Oval Office.

Kiddo, you’re wrong about Pelosi. She is just another craven Democratic politician that is willing to go along to get along.

I like the way you think, Bluetoe! Been paying attention to your comments, you’re right more than you’re wrong about these folks.

john in sacramento @ 24

It’s imperative that this passes in rush? Yea, right, and I’ve got a bridge to sell you too

Would that bridge be I-35W in Hennepin County, Minnesota?

BC

.
Bluetoe and selise, with you two, I agrees.

P J Evans @ 230

scribe @ 227

After I saw that up, I spent a few minutes looking for it on AP wires. Decided it wasn’t real, because it wasn’t showing up – and it’s something that newspapers probably would notice.

Or this:

The check in the amount $250,400.00 was paid for by “Friends of People Who Out CIA Agents”, a tax exempt organization that provides job opportunities to well-connected pardoned felons

Whaddya think? A real organization!

Bluetoe @ 234

Oklahoma kiddo @ 224

If the Speaker were only interested in her career she would be doing impeachment of Bush and Cheney. I think if these two little power-boys were gone that would put the Speaker in the Oval Office.

Kiddo, you’re wrong about Pelosi. She is just another craven Democratic politician that is willing to go along to get along.

i’m not sure that’s right either… she does seem better than many (at least to me). i don’t think it has to be all good or all bad… just want to try and be as intellectually honest as possible…

Are you watching Blunt and boehner now?

Unbelievable!

david olsen at 131 says-”

If you sit down at the table and you don’t see a sucker, get up and leave, ’cause the sucker is you.”

yep

Eureka Springs @ 229

scribe @ 228

Serious oops! I bit on a gag.

Sorry about that.

707!

Going to read now but I thought it was a cashiers check.

Out an undercover CIA agent, bounce a check, help start an unnecessary war, all in a day’s work for Libby.

selise @ 240

Bluetoe @ 234

Kiddo, you’re wrong about Pelosi. She is just another craven Democratic politician that is willing to go along to get along.

i’m not sure that’s right either… she does seem better than many (at least to me). i don’t think it has to be all good or all bad… just want to try and be as intellectually honest as possible…

Your “I’m not sure” leads me to believe that you have some doubt. I too would like to think that there are motives beyond craven politics in Pelosi’s calibrations but given the seriousness of what the nation faces with an administration that is more evocative of the 3rd Reich, there are times that mere political calabration fall far short of what is best for the nation, it’s citizens and the Constitution. This is not a time for sunshine patriots.

N=1 “Have you ever seen a kitchen shared by six just out of college fellas? *g* I am cleaning my way into the fridge and next up I’ll put on a blindfold and tackle the stove *g*!”

i am cracking up, could say many comments, but i won’t…………hang in there………you are obviously needed……..

selise @ 240

Bluetoe @ 234

Kiddo, you’re wrong about Pelosi. She is just another craven Democratic politician that is willing to go along to get along.

i’m not sure that’s right either… she does seem better than many (at least to me). i don’t think it has to be all good or all bad… just want to try and be as intellectually honest as possible…

I think that you can add in there bad communication or a lack of communication. Pelosi and Reid like many other politicians don’t know how to talk to the blogosphere and may not even think it is terribly important to do so. Caving on the Iraq spending bill, sneaking in secret dealings on trade, now rushing last minute changes to FISA, these are redflags to the blogosphere. No explanation, no forewarning, no after action assessment. Instead we get Pelosi talking about how many bills the House has passed. While this is all well and good, Pelosi is a lot quieter about how many of these efforts have actually resulted in laws.

So my takeaway message is that Reid and Pelosi need to communicate more effectively with the blogosphere. This means telling us what they are doing and why. It also means showing some sensitivity to issues that are important to us.

Bluetoe @ 244

selise @ 240

i’m not sure that’s right either… she does seem better than many (at least to me). i don’t think it has to be all good or all bad… just want to try and be as intellectually honest as possible…

Your “I’m not sure” leads me to believe that you have some doubt. I too would like to think that there are motives beyond craven politics in Pelosi’s calibrations but given the seriousness of what the nation faces with an administration that is more evocative of the 3rd Reich, there are times that mere political calabration fall far short of what is best for the nation, it’s citizens and the Constitution. This is not a time for sunshine patriots.

I think that those(representatives) that get into the machine (and I do believe some have good intentions) walk a tightrope, between what they want, what their constituents want, what they know, and what is possible. I believe Pelosi is walking that tightrope.

Pelosi 2007!!!

Hugh @ 246

selise @ 240

i’m not sure that’s right either… she does seem better than many (at least to me). i don’t think it has to be all good or all bad… just want to try and be as intellectually honest as possible…

I think that you can add in there bad communication or a lack of communication. Pelosi and Reid like many other politicians don’t know how to talk to the blogosphere and may not even think it is terribly important to do so. Caving on the Iraq spending bill, sneaking in secret dealings on trade, now rushing last minute changes to FISA, these are redflags to the blogosphere. No explanation, no forewarning, no after action assessment. Instead we get Pelosi talking about how many bills the House has passed. While this is all well and good, Pelosi is a lot quieter about how many of these efforts have actually resulted in laws.

So my takeaway message is that Reid and Pelosi need to communicate more effectively with the blogosphere. This means telling us what they are doing and why. It also means showing some sensitivity to issues that are important to us.

Its been a while since I said thank Hugh, out loud, but I think it almost every day Hugh.

Bluetoe @ 243

Your “I’m not sure” leads me to believe that you have some doubt. I too would like to think that there are motives beyond craven politics in Pelosi’s calibrations but given the seriousness of what the nation faces with an administration that is more evocative of the 3rd Reich, there are times that mere political calabration fall far short of what is best for the nation, it’s citizens and the Constitution. This is not a time for sunshine patriots.

well, i do have doubts, but that’s wasn’t what i was trying to say. i still stand by my comments at 225 and 208.

it’s more that i don’t think pelosi is just a like any other craven pol. i think she’s better than many of them. but that doesn’t mean she should get a pass when she screws up.

Hugh @ 245

I think that you can add in there bad communication or a lack of communication. Pelosi and Reid like many other politicians don’t know how to talk to the blogosphere and may not even think it is terribly important to do so. Caving on the Iraq spending bill, sneaking in secret dealings on trade, now rushing last minute changes to FISA, these are redflags to the blogosphere. No explanation, no forewarning, no after action assessment. Instead we get Pelosi talking about how many bills the House has passed. While this is all well and good, Pelosi is a lot quieter about how many of these efforts have actually resulted in laws.

So my takeaway message is that Reid and Pelosi need to communicate more effectively with the blogosphere. This means telling us what they are doing and why. It also means showing some sensitivity to issues that are important to us.

that’s a good point. i should have had communication in my list. i don’t like being spun… especially by people who are supposed to be my allies.

Eureka Springs @ 247

Its been a while since I said thank Hugh, out loud, but I think it almost every day Hugh.

amen!

and “thank you” to you too, ES!

Pelosi haters:

Please do the math.

There are 231 Ds, 202 Rs in the House right now.

44 Ds are Blue Dogs. Another 44 are “New Democrats” (headed by Tauscher). 72 are in the Progressive Coalition.

On issues of security, or “anti-business” legislation, you have to peel off Blue Dogs and New Democrats. To get them to peel off, you often have to take a position that loses Progressives.

In her duties as Speaker, Pelosi’s personal positions don’t matter – she has to build consensus.

Democrats don’t fall in line when given their marching orders like Republicans do. It’s why we like Democrats.

I personally would prefer that Pelosi were more progressive. But I’ve been observing politics for a long time, and I think she is about the sharpest, most professional politician you will ever see. She knows what she is doing.

If you don’t like what the Dem majority is doing, please have at your nearest Blue Dog or New Dem. My rep is a Blue Dog and he is now voting consistently against the war. Pressure works. But pressure on Pelosi is risky because (1) her opinion is not as important as consensus and (2) she is very, very good at the game.

GordonM @ 252 –

i don’t hate her. i’m pissed off. the two things are different.

and did you read my list?

how are the blue dogs responsible for her secret trade deal with bush?
how are the blue dogs responsible for h.con.r.21?
how are the blue dogs responsible for impeachment being off the table?

do you think glenn greenwald is wrong?

i’m not saying she is a lost cause or even that she’s not one of the better ones. i am saying i think she’s screwing up.

i’d love to be able to think differently. i don’t see how the evidence supports that…. but, if you can explain how h.con.r.21 was not a seriously irresponsible action – please tell me.

Rep. Anna Eshoo (Palo Alto, Menlo Park, etc.): We all take the same oath, to defend the Constitution. The steel of our Nation. Shame on the Reps for challenging the patriotism of members. We will not turn over additional powers to an attorney general who approves of torture, etc. until gaveled down. This from one of the richest, yet most liberal districts around. Dems standing strong for FISA. Is this something like cage fighting?

selise @ 253

GordonM @ 252 –

i don’t hate her. i’m pissed off. the two things are different.

and did you read my list?

how are the blue dogs responsible for her secret trade deal with bush?

I guess I don’t have a high enough security clearance to know much about this.

how are the blue dogs responsible for h.con.r.21?

I don’t like that one, but there’s no “there” there. It just says “we’re concerned”.

how are the blue dogs responsible for impeachment being off the table?

That can be parsed a number of ways.

do you think glenn greenwald is wrong?

Every once in awhile, I’m sure he is.

i’m not saying she is a lost cause or even that she’s not one of the better ones. i am saying i think she’s screwing up.

i’d love to be able to think differently. i don’t see how the evidence supports that…. but, if you can explain how h.con.r.21 was not a seriously irresponsible action – please tell me.

It punts to the UN. That is all it does. Not “good”, but not “irresponsible” either, because it has absolutely no teeth.

There are 3 versions of Bill Number H.CON.RES.21 for the 110th Congress
1 . Calling on the United Nations Security Council to charge Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide… (Introduced in House)[H.CON.RES.21.IH]
2 . Whereas the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (commonly referred to as the `Genocide Convention’) defines genocide as, among other things, the… (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)[H.CON.RES.21.EH]
3 . Calling on the United Nations Security Council to charge Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide… (Referred to Senate Committee after being Received from House)[H.CON.RES.21.RFS]

Oops, sorry at 155 I double blockquoted many of my responses, instead of escaping them.

GordonM @ 256

Oops, sorry at 155 I double blockquoted many of my responses, instead of escaping them.

that’s ok, i think i get your points. i just disagree:

so, no reason to blame the blue dogs for secret trade deal with bush, or h.con.r.21 or impeachment blockade.

we completely disagree about h.con.r.21. there are major lies in that bill (in fact it’s based on lies) and even juan cole was pissed. it gives bush rhetorical justification for an attack on iran.

p.s. i think there’s always multiple versions of bills – when they are passed, they get a different designation. i’m complaining about the one the house passed.

if none of my issues are your issues… then it makes sense for you not to be pissed at pelosi… maybe we should just conclude that we care about different issues? i’m ok with that…

Selise – I don’t know about secret trade deals. I know Bush’s fast track authority was denied.

Impeachment – we’ll see.

I think h.con.r.21 was kicking the can down the road. It’s all wrong (translation wrong) but the WaPo, NYT and all the rest would’ve been screaming bloody murder if it hadn’t passed. After years and years of a total lack of activism from the Left, you shouldn’t be surprised that most Dems take their cues from the wrong sources.

Listening to the initial NPR report this afternoon about the Repubs’ near-riot on the floor of the House, I immediately flashed back to the staged Brook Brothers suited Rethugs rioting in Florida during the 2000 recount. This was just as genuine.

It did seem to me that NPR’s tone and wording were suggesting that somehow it was the Dems’ fault the Rethugs had to behave badly….

the next 9/11 will happen in August.

Congress is being kept in session because it will be the target — probably a nuke

Watch for the Bush crime organization to leave town for Colorado before the shit hits the fan.

Then, Executive Order 51, signed, sealed and finally delivered up the unwilling asses of your children and grandchildren.

gg america, way to be good germans.