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(Photo via Hillbilly Report.)
The House Government Oversight Committee started a hearing at 10:00 am ET on the Tillman death and the odd habit of the Pentagon to leak out bits and pieces of facts along with wholly false blather. Watch it live via C-Span 3 or courtesy of Henry Waxman.
RawStory reports that former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld changed his mind would likely appear at the hearing after all, and so he has — though he’s doing a really excellent Abu Gonzales impersonation instead of, y’know, actually testifying. But I guess you go with the Rumsfelds you have rather than the Rumsfelds you wish you had. And as Christy mentioned in the first thread, AP has a story on the latest finger-pointing in the saga — at a three star general who has now been censured.
If you haven’t already read this piece from Pat Tillman’s brother, you really should. Christy’s stuck at the airport on the way to Chicago, and the WiFi there is intermittent — so if folks are watching the hearing, pick a point person in the comments to liveblog a bit. And then everyone else please hold back from commenting too much or you’ll crash the site. (Please be kind to the moderators and don’t do that. Thanks!)
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zed?
oneliners begone
Rummys voice drives me mad.
yeah! The Cover-up cotinues
OT
Bush Visiting to Support Reichert
President Bush is scheduled to visit Bellevue Aug. 27 for a top-dollar fundraiser for U.S. Rep. Dave Reichert’s re-election campaign.
Woo! This is to all the Seattle cats out there who wanna know when the prez is coming to town.
Clay: Apl 30th 2004 army said Tillman got silver star. Was rushed thru for mem svc on May 3rd. This was supposed to be for gallentry while engaging enemy forces. Who awarded the Silver star?
Rummy: Dunno. The process does not include the Secy of Def.
Myers: Dunno.
Abizaid: Dunno
Brown: Dunno
Clay: Answer is Bush. I know Bush did not review supporting docs. The statement on citation was false.
EPU’d:
Question: When Rumsfeld keeps saying (as he did to Rep. Watson) “I did’t know” and “I wasn’t told” that Tillman died as a result of fratricide, why isn’t anyone asking him why the h*ll not and wasn’t he furious that no one told him and what heads rolled when he learned he wasn’t informed? Why aren’t they pursuing this particular question? Because if we are to believe Rumsfeld his subordinates kept him out of the loop and he did nothing.
Clay: Erroneous statements. Tillman did not die via enemy fire. He was probably killed by own unit. Why did you not intervene?
Rumyy; I did not know anything about this. Not my job
Clay: Should he have been awarded it?
Rummy: I think it is being reviewed.
Myers: It’s the army responsibility.
Abizaid: Army has looked at wording, but Tillman deserves it anyway.
Brown: Actions of Tillman warrant a silver star.
According to a Raw Story article by Michael Roston Kensinger is evading his subpoena to attend the hearing:
Censured Lieutenant Evades Subpoena
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0801.html
Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) revealed in a Wednesday hearing that Lieutenant General Philip Kensinger, who was censured Tuesday by the Army for deceiving investigators regarding the announcement of the death of Army Specialist Pat Tillman, has evaded a subpoena issued by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
“General Kensinger refused to appear today,” Chairman Waxman said in his opening statement. “His attorney informed the committee that General Kensinger would not testify voluntarily, and if issued a subpoena would seek to evade service. The committee did issue a subpoena to General Kensinger earlier this week, but US Marshals have been unable to locate or serve him.”
The announcement came at the start of a hearing on the friendly fir
There was never any evidence of enemy fire found on the scene, and no members of Tillman’s group had been hit by enemy fire.
The three-star general responsible for witholding details of Tillman’s death from his parents for a number of months, told investigators “he had a bad memory, and couldn’t recall details of his actions” on more than 70 occasions.
Army attorneys congratulated each other in emails for impeding criminal investigation as they concluded Tillman’s death was the result of friendly fire, and that only administrative, or non-criminal, punishment was indicated.
Clay: We concluded that army did not want to tell family about fratricide. They did not want to put out a “ahlf-baked story” But they put out a half baked story about the silver star.
Sad to say, I couldn’t agree more with whomever twas said it’s counterproductive to have all these guys sitting side-by-side, interrupting eachother & indulging in, “yup, yup, yup, whut he said, yup” covering their collective behind.
This style of hearing is.not.working.
Waxman & Co. will find out nothing today! DANG!
“A” for effort
“D” for execution
Helen @ 8
the real question is, “how did his mother become a gold star mother?”
Note how the now-famous Gonzalesian answer “I don’t recall” has now morphed into DoD-speak. An utter disgrace. But who expected more from Rumsfeld anyway?
Sooo,
What mystifies me is who actually did kill Pat Tillman? We keep hearing that is from “Friendly Fire”, by who was doing the “Friendly Fire”?
Helen @5:
Here is a good story on many of the people involved, including those involved in the awarding of the star, another thread, of course, of the conspiracy:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w…..lman_N.htm
Bilbray…a family crisis?
How about a national crisis? How about a national dsigrace?
Sorry, Bilbray, your kid would not have been anywhere near Iraq and you know it, not if he’s anything like his dad.
Now we’re down to talking about irrelevant matters like Defense Department policy.
Why was the initial report on Tillman’s death by Capt. Scott destroyed?
Army and Marines have set times for their tours? I know in Nam we did, but haven’t there been numerous complaints about extended tours in Iraq?
Ed @ 15
BLACWATER Operative. is my guess.
cancer_cures @ 4
Reichert is toast. Why he is inviting the kiss of death to town, i’ll never know. Go Darcy !!!
Bilbray: Services are different. We should not make them a uniform service.
Rummy: I’ve had many meetings about this. Yup.
Bilbray: Responsibility of us to inform family. The worst thing you can do is not give family truth up front.
Helen says: YES WE KNOW. Now let’s find out what happened.
I’m gonna go for a run to let off some steam…I cannot listen to Issa or any more of this useless hearing.
The Democrats have allowed it to happen again…defeat from the jaws of victory.
The questions to Rummy are soft and general and abstract…What do you think about doing….in the future? How about direct question to Rummy? These are deadend statements more than questions.
Issa: Does anyone dispute that Tillman stood up to protect his people from friendly fire? So he deserves a silver star regardless of who fired shots.
Great job, Helen! (And now, Mods: I will STFU.)
[Mod Note: Your understanding appreciated. One-liners slow the thread, complicate the work of the mods. Gabbly is available. Or patience for after liveblogging.]
i just called the house oversight committee to complain about this hearing. (202) 225-5051
the important questions are not being asked. the witnesses are allowed to duck and weave. it seems that sound bites and not uncovering the truth is the goal of the members of the committee.
this hearing would be a joke, if it wasn’t such a tragedy.
…probably won’t do any good. but maybe there’ll be a break in the hearing and the message can get to committee members.
Helen @ 7
I wish the Senate Armed Services Committee would investigate this. I’d love to see the look on the Generals and Rummy’s face when Webb gives them the look that he’d like to leap over the divider and kick their a-s into next week.
Shays “What made them think they could get away with it”
Full on investigation!!!
A favor to FDL please- no one-liners and please stay on topic so folks can follow the hearing and we can protect the servers.
Thanks for helping us out!
Braley to Rummy; Who is Michael Mullen?
Rummy talks about the wrong Mike Mullen – a current serviceman
Helen says: Braley is talking about the Michael Mullen who died in FF in Vitenam – the movie with Carol Burnett.
Rummy at first did not know who he was. But has known about the FF issue for a long time.
Braley: Peg Mullen (MM’s mom) said back during Vitenam that families should know. Not much has changed. What should we do?
Rummy: We’re working on it. Uniformity in reporting. But human beings make mistakes.
Issa just wrapped up a smugly useless exercise getting instantaneous agreement from all the assembled brass across the table, in re: we don’t really need or even want to know any of this stuff being asked about the how and why, do we? It’s irrelevant? “Y-y-y-y-yuppppp”.
Disgusting!
have e-mailed Waxman and said they need to get the doctors and the other members of the platoon to testify. Also that there’s a difference between ‘can’t recall’ and ‘don’t recall’. Don’t know if it will help … but Henry’s my Congressman.
Braley to Myers: You said that the ref to fratricide and P4 we need to calibrate this when we go before the press. What did you do when you found out the info was misleading?
Myers: I found out too late. I did nothing. My comment was after the fact.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/arti…..meline.DTL
Good time line for research
Braley is my man. Iowa 01.
He’s an attorney. Why the general open ended questions?
I am soreley disappointed with the panel, this hearing ,Nobody knew nothing.
Mary Tillman “in every way they are dodging us”
Go Mary let the truth rip
How many times is fratricide really a dileberate murder of your fellow soldier? Beside non-military people writing books, what has the military put out about fratricide?
“Unfortunate” trivialises the accountability of fratricide. In such cases fratricide needs to be a civilian trial rather than military investigation and trial.
Braley to Myers: You had a memo that said it was potentially fratricide and you were aware that Bush and other were making comments. What did you do?
Myers: I knew after the fact. I did not know the pres was speaking about Tillman.
we can discuss this hearing at facebook
here.
Rummy would like to make another statement:
E-mails to/by WH (which I had no idea about at the time) were not about the nature of his death, but of his enlistment. That’s what the WH was asking.
Wrong hearing – wrong witnesses – wrong approach – waste of time. I’m outta here.
Shays to Rummy: Thank you for rearranging your schedule. Thank you all for being here. The questions center around who knew what when how who did they tell? We have gotten our answers altho Kensinger is not here. Condi on yellowcake? Embassy in Iraq? There are a lot of important issues. Abu Garib. We spenta whole year exposing our dirty laundry while or men and women die. This hearing ain’t gonna do anything.
STFU Shays
Anyone else lost feed ?
Mary Tillman “this is about what they did to a nation”
I love that Mary is bringing up all of the other soldiers who have questions about their deaths.
Go Mary Tillman
If it is true that Pat Tillman deserved a silver star, then I wonder how many thousands of others did as much and also deserved a silver star but never received one. The truth is that having awarded Tillman a silver star these jokers are too embarrassed to rescind it, especially since it was awarded by Bush himself apparently.
I also wanted to point out that the generals are all hiding behind the chain of command. If it was not directly brought to their attention and made their responsibility, then they are absolving themselves of any accountability. But that isn’t how it is supposed to work. They are responsible for everything that happens below them in the chain of command, everything. It is all their responsibility. It is also their duty to make sure that those over them in the chain of command have been properly and truthfully informed. If any of them heard or came across anything that they felt was not right about the Tillman affair it was their duty to make inquiries. They did nothing. Their conduct was unprofessional, but then what would you expect from generals picked and promoted by Donald Rumsfeld?
Shays to Rummy: You called their bluff: Say anything you want to.
Rummy says nothing
Yeilds to Davis
The truth cannot be revealed b/c it is too horrible. They all feel that the American public can’t handle the truth about Tillman.
Nobody knows where the tipping point is. The truth about Tillman will help us reach critical mass. The corporatocracy does not want to get there. It would be chaotic.
Rummy, Abizaid, et al are playing the blame game. Blame an institution – the army – keep it vague and nobody gets fingered.
They’ve got Kensinger(sp) ready to be scapegoated, a bullsh*t congressional inquiry (which is really embarrassing and ridiculous) and its a done deal – they hope.
The Tillman family could not be quieted with a medal and they can’t kill them.
Shays is toast in ‘08.
Shay is worried how this hearing is “going to save one American’s life” and yet he keeps voting to continue the killing in Iraq. Have none of these people any depth whatsoever?
big bob @ 41
no, using committee feed
Shame on Shays. Praises Rummy for callin Dems bluff. To call a hearing on Tillman’s blue on blue death a waste of time is nothing short of hateful and spiteful. Shays needs to be sent to the forefront of the battle. It’s just a huge screwup. Oh, please. Trivialise. Thak god Kucinich is up.
Shays reclaiming his time. “I am not saying this is not important, but there are other thing to talk about.”
Helen says: Clearly a staffer told him what an asshole he sounded like.
Elliott @ 50
Yep, but C-Span 3 feed ok.
Kusinich: Conversation with WH re: press strategy?
Rummy: No
Kusinich: Conversations with WH re; press strategy re: iraq?
Rummy: Yes.
bigbob at 42:
try c-span 3, live feed. often, in the past, I’ve had trubble keeping the committee site feed going, but c-span seems to work just fine, & is true now.
Try this:
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs…..p;Code=CS3
PRAISE DENNIS!!
Helen @ 52
but Kucinich said “IN the White House” did he mean with the White House?
newtonusr @ 53
thats what i was useing ,,, its back now Thanks!
Kusinich: Was there a WH press strategy that DOD had to be mindful of?
Rummy: No
K: A DOD strategy?
Rummy: If teher was it did not work.
K: Well yes it did – you covered up Tillman and Lynch.
Rummy: You are hurting my feelings!!!!!
K: The news got out and you don’t know how. Who did it?
Rummy: It was the army’s fault?
K; outsourcing of message?
Rummy: Ask army
Chairman Waxman on the hearing (h/t to Atrios):
Thank you Dennis! “Thank you for acquitting yourself” to Rummy. Dennis is fearless. Go Dennis. It is worth staying through this sham hearing after all the shallow slimmy questions.
K: Was the XXXX group involved in getting story out (sorry guys I missed the company name)
R: I have some awareness that there is some outsourcing in tis area.
K: Mr Chair I think it is important that we figure of part of the problem is outsourcing.
Siun @ 29
we can encourage facebook firepups to join our discussion topic here.
we want all your one-liners and commentary on this commnetary, off-topic drive-by’s … whatever you got.
~ just don’t call me late for supper
This sounds just like the Gonzales hearings. No one knows anything. Everything was privatized?
Anyone notice that Rumsfeild didn’t really deny covering things up to Dennis? He just said “you don’t have proof”.
To Rummy: Now that you know what happened, were you satisfied or dissatisfied on the way you were notified.
Rummy: Um
To Rummy: Do you remember being upset or do you think you should have been notified.
Rummy: I was not on the P4. I am not surprised that I was not notified.
To Rummy; How do your people tell you what’s going on?
Rummy: Oh gosh – we talked about lots of things.
Kucinich! WooHoo!
“Was there a war at the White House?”
Rummy: “How would I know?”
K: Was there a press strategie?
R: Not to my knowledge.
K; [bores in & goes for the throat, yeehaw]
Kucinich, for his boyish appearance, is a tiger when he wants to be. Bravo! Hope it gets on YouTube.
K’s questioning ends, & Braley takes over.
Rummy stuttering, totally flustered still, from the K questioning, I do believe, heh.
R: “Oh my goodness…blah blah blah”
Waaaaaaambulance and mop in aisle 5.
Ahh, my question 7 above finally gets asked of Rumsfeld, though no good answer.
To Abizaid: did you have procedures in place to tell you when thingslike this happen?
Abizaid: Yes – but it did not happen here.
To Abizaid: What about the chain of command.
Abizaid: There was a problem. I did not punish anyone. It was not the first P4 that went astray and will not be the last.
QuakerGirl @ 60
In a just world, that would make tonight’s evening news.
But just as they twisted around Obama’s speech to make him sound like he wants to carpet-bomb Pakistan (guess what: he doesn’t), they will ignore what Kucinich said.
New thread will be going up around 1:30 ET, folks. I’m stepping out for lunch now — be kind to the mods!
Listening to these hearing you have to wonder who’s doing their job. No one knows anything and low grade flunkies make all the decisions even deciding what they should inform their superiors about. I guess the buck stops at the bottom and not at the top.
Burton: Snowflake that said we may want to keep an eye on Tillman, what did you mean?
Rummy: Exactly what I wrote.
A few random thoughts.
I thought that Kucinich made a very good point:
You haven’t given a good explanation of how this happened, Mr. Rumsfeld.
It is not simply that it happened but why it happened that is important. Rumsfeld and the generals are saying that it happened but it wasn’t their responsibility. My questions would be: Whose responsibility was it? And why wasn’t it yours? Doesn’t the chain of command make it yours?
Interesting: Why didn’t Abizaid punish and raise h*ll about such a high profile case, a case in which he admits his headquarters screwed up? Again sounds like a failure in command responsibilty. Abizaid says that things were fixed but the ongoing Tillman investigation shows that they weren’t.
Rendon/Lincoln/Rendon/Lincoln…KKKarl
[Be gentle with me…save the one-liners for facebook or after liveblogging. Cranky Mod]
CityGirl @ 67
Yes, but it’s out there in the open, now. Makes it harder to cover up & hide quietly in the litterbox, eh? ;->
For reference, serious Rummy quotes;
=====================
Control your time. If you’re working off your in-box, you’re working off the priorities of others. Be sure the staff is working on what you move to them from the President, or the President will be reacting, not leading.
———————-
Develop a few key themes and stick to them. It works. Repetition is necessary. “Quality.” “Customers.” “Innovation.” “Service.” Whatever!
Donald Rumsfeld, Wall Street Journal, January 2001
Hodes: At least 6 investigations. Each had serious flaws. DOD says first two were tainted. IG said same about third investigation. Fourth – IG was unable to tell who doctored silver star report. Fifth ???? Sixth too limited in scope. All were incompetant. Do you all agree that it should not take 6 investigations, 3 yrs congressional investigations to figure what happened.
Yes they all agree.
So is it safe to say we learned nothing, got nowhere with this hearing?
If that’s the case, then I’m content, having come to expect *ZILCH* from the whole lot of them.
What time does the next dog & poney show begin? I need to run out to the concession stand for some Milk Duds and maybe a corn dog.
Thanks much, PW!
Adie @ 73
You would think! In the end those of us with like-mind will carry the ball. The rest of the country will turn the channel and watch People’s Court or something.
Hodes: A dozen investigations into Abu Garib. No understanding into the civilia repsonsibilities. See any parallels? No one at the top knew what was going on (or are hiding it) To Rummy: What should we do?
Rummy: I do not agree with your characterization. There is a perception problem.
hah!
Hodes: What should be done about it?
Rummy: Dunno.
So after these hearings what next? How could anyone say “no” to a full on investigation?
Helen @ 80
“I wish I had some brilliant answers” Rummy
my apologies, ignore #77, C-span crashed here & I thought hearing was over.
Rummy blabering about who’s in charge, who’s responsible for what. We just dunno he tells us.
Helen says: It’s hard
First, I’d like to say how truly heartburned the comments of the principals at today’s Tillman hearings were. We could feel their pain.
Second, let’s change the question. Instead of what & when, it should be, ‘Do you remember anything at all?’
More thoughts later, must run.
More classic Rummy:
I believe what I said yesterday. I don’t know what I said, but I know what I said, and…well, I assume it’s what I said.
—————-
If I know the answer I’ll tell you the answer, and if I don’t, I’ll just respond, cleverly.
Donald Rumsfeld
selise @ 26
Thanks, Selise. Lighting a candle rather than cursing the darkness.
Dumb, dumb Democrats.
I’ll go make MY call.
Helen @ 79
I don’t know what Rummy would do without perception. Everything is a perception problem with him as though that ends the conversation or debate.
A few random thoughts after reading Hugh @73,
This whole hearing seems like they are either ‘defending’ or ’shifting blame’ to others. Rumsfeld is upset at the line of questioning, meanwhile not giving any sort of detail that would help this hearing..but you have to consider that IF Rumsfeld did not know, or did not cosign onto this cover-up, he would have (SHOULD HAVE) gone through greater lengths to either oust the criminal when he had the power and authority, or cooporate with the hearings now to bust the person who tarnished Tillman’s image.
This all is assuming that Rumsfeld is innocent in this matter. This is what an innocent, well-meaning person would do. Obviously Rumsfeld is not innocent and not well-meaning.
Abizaid: Lots of stuff was going on. We cannot be expected to know everything that is going on.
Rumsfeld: Abizaid was fighting a war. He was traveling all over the world.
Well, if he was fighting a war why was he traveling all over the world? And if he had time to travel all over the world, why didn’t he have time to address an issue that had a major likelihood of impacting his command negatively? Why was Abizaid asleep at the switch?
Davis (the good one from IL, not the tool): You said once that what’s immportant is to manage the comms between the pentagon and WH. What happened? Who was in charge?
Rummy: Multiple channels to WH.
Helen @ 72
Uh oh, tinfoil hat humming. What is this memo about?
Davis: Were you aware that WH contacted Mr. Doritta? (Rummy guy; public affairs) asking for info. re Tillman’s death
Rummy: I had no idea about that email until just this moment. What Doritta told me was his call. I dunno know anything about this.
Davis: General Kradick(sp?) says that he was often kept out of the loop. Doritta did not tell him what was going on, but he spoke to Rummy all the time. True?
Rummy: The whole group could not always know what was going on. Highly unlikely me an Doritta told me about military matters.
Oh no, the weasel from my district – McHenry
What is the purpose of this line of questioning? I can’t figure it out. It seems so irrelevant, Davis needs some sessions on how ot pose a questions and determine the purpose of your line of questioning. Really bad performance! Yep, that’s my comment.
What is this business about Tillman putting himself in harm’s way to prevent friendly fire on his own troops? Is that what the 6 investigations uncovered?
McHenry: This is about pointing fingers and it should not be. Let’s not talk about that. Let’s talk about how great Pat Tillman was. That is what this hearing should be about. It has been covered that there were screw-ups with the beuracracy. There was no cover-up.
lotsa lotsa claims that left hand never knows what right hand’s doing, by design(!)
Would “regular” military accept this scenario?
I assume they’d be absolutely f.u.r.i.o.u.s!
After 01/20/09, a War Crimes division needs to be established at the DOJ. If this country is ever going to get back on the right path, that is a must. Rummy et al need to end up in court and then prison.
Didn’t know McHenry was on this committee.
McHenry thinks he knows what this hearing should be about – heroism – and not investigating how Tillman was
executedkilled. And Issa agrees. It was a prblem at the lower levels. Bury your head in the sand guys!Davis points out that Rummy had plans to streamline and improve military communications way back in the 1970’s and then Davis segued into the question about Doritta’s role as WH liason.
Rummy was thus given the opportunity for a lengthy tapdance about Doritta thus Davis’ important point went down in flames.
Rummy has dozens of excuses for not knowing what was going on. Rummy is a bureaucrat’s bureaucrat and a sophist’s sophist.
Issa: Is everything OK now in terms if policy.
Brown: Yup – everything is hunky dorry.
Issa: Has it been made clear that this should never happen again?
Brown: Yup.
Complicated battlefield environment, military lingo, pentagonese. Actually the situation was pretty simple and certainly one that all involved were familiar with. It also overlooks the fact that Tillman was shot at close range. Nothing terribly mind taxing about that.
McHenry crashed my RealPlayer!
Issa…. no one is to blame everyone did their jobs.
Back to that other damn universe apparently. bushco seems so content in their delusions.
When does reality return?
Helen and others. Thanks for your live-blogging…magnicant job!
hackworth @ 105
Advice to Davis – always know your opponent
Helen and others. Thanks for your live-blogging…magnficant job!
Hugh @ 109
They can’t get there from here. Who knew anything? Nobody knows. Mebbe the shadow knows.
OMG I love Watson. I wish she were ours! I think I’ll adopt her. She subtly skewers rummy, & he can’t do a thing but sit there & take it.
Good work Rep. Watson!
Throughout this entire sideshow, it has been repeatedly asserted by Rummy, Azibad, et.al. that they personally had no clue what was going on.
If this is the case, (a big if) why are they not absolutely furious that they were made to look like incompetent monkeys? These men are supposed to be the leaders of the most powerful armed forces in the world and their plebes are treating them like mushrooms by feeding them BS and keeping them in the dark.
I dunno, I think I’d be just a little pissed about that.
Norton: The family asked that we investigate the circumstances of Tillmans death. There is no doubt that Tillman was a hero.
To Rummy: Your lawyer in preparing a response to DOD IG said that you asked a Jr member in your staff to help you determine when you found out about fraticide. Staffer asked a coupla questions. This does not sound like a real attempt of you to find out what happened.
Genral Kraddick said that your office never contacted him. Why?
Rummy: My recollection is close to that. It was the last series of my days in the dept. I had lots to do.
Helen – Your insight and capturing made this live blog very interesting. Thanks for keeping us on point (as much as we can be on point for a bunch of independent thinkers).
so GSA bag lady “Cookies” Doan marries this WH liaison and emerges as Lurita Doritta.
Naraka @ 116
Given the alternative . . .
Davis (the tool) We asked if personal email of soldiers were looked at. Waiting for an answer.
W: “apparently the military knows one way you might have known…”
R: humma humma blah blah blah
W: to the best of your ability, what you knew and when you knew it.
R: no. they were supposed to tell me
quibble quibble of whose assistant is whose, any number of people may have been in the roundtable meeting where i may have been informed….
Watson wraps up her prey & sets him back in the corner…
HUH?!?
I find it quite funny that they can remember in detail conversations with a selected few. And keep saying “I don’t remember” ” I don’t recall” these fools take US as fools
Maybe we should no longer ask these clowns “what do you recall” because they all have seriously impaired memories. Is it me or has this been a hearing without much heart in it other than a couple of congresspersons? Maybe it will improve and gain some momentum.
Welch: The military takes very serioulsy it’s obligation to familty members. We’ve talked about that. Second issue: Pressure on Bush Admin to talk about the bad along with the good. Re: this particular war in contract to others – the sacrifice is an all voluntesr army. First time multiple tax cuts, off busget, no draft. Question to Myers: In contrast to Vietnam every time there was a soldier whose remains were returned the press was there. The press was there was solom and made it clear that this was real The pentagon policy is that the press cannot show this. COrrect?
Myers: No press allowed there as respect to the families.
But I guess you go with the Rumsfelds you have rather than the Rumsfelds you wish you had.
LOL!
I would like to hear more questions that begin with WHY!
Welch follows Watson.
Turns subject to sacrifice of servicepeople, the very real cost in lives and every other way to the families…
very eloquent.
stands in stark contrast to rummy’s silly equivocating over pieces-parts of the chain of command, who knows whom, how & when within the press spokespeople in the bowels of the system, etc. etc.
Why didn’t the subject of the President invoking Executive Privilege to block the release of documents on Tillman come up?
What they should be asking….
1. What is your opioion on the three shots next to each other regrarding Tilman’s death?
2. Do any of you know where or why LT Gen. Kenningston is or why he is not here?
rummy et al have two choices: they can admit that they are ruthless, lying criminals….or, they can pretend that they were clueless, head up the ass clowns. And so they’ve chosen….Door Number Two!
Welch: The is a changed policy. Press used to be allowed?
Myers: Yes.
Welch: What is the pentagon rationale?
Rummy: Ask the Press Dept of the DOD!!! But we leave it to the families re: press at funerasl.
Welch: But when the body is in the custody of military policy is no press?
Rummy: Dunno.
Abizaid: Dunno.
Welch: No press at Dover?
Abizaid Dunno
Helen says ARE THEY ALL MORONS????
“It’s the policy’s fault”, says Rummy. Do our policies stand alone like Hal and recreate themselves? Are policies now classed as a “person” like corporations?
Seems to me there’s a cover up being investigated, and I doubt these criminals were going to show up and come clean.
The more detailed questions will come once they have a transcript of the lies, and the people investigating find a pattern of lies to delve into.
There are known policies and there are unknown policies…If you want to know the unknown policies you must know the known policies. Policies are sometimes unknown, yet the known policies are unknown!
Just my take!!!! ;)
Hugh @ 109
“Mind taxing” — Reminds me of Kensinger’s statement after “not recalling” 70 times: “I’m really scared about my brain right now”.
It seems like they should be asking questions of:
Brig. Gen. Gina Farrisee, Army director of military personnel management at the Pentagon, who received a “Written memorandum of concern for failing to ensure that a medical examiner’s concerns were properly resolved.”
I want to hear a follow up question to the “I do not recall and I don’t know” answers. WHY don’t you know? I have been asked that question by parents, grandparents, teachers and bosses. In other words, you should know, it is your responsibility to know, and so if you don’t know, why don’t you?
Helen. FANTASTIC job! Check 131 for an answer you’ve probably already figured out about your 132. You go grrrl!
oddmommy @ 129
That’s what the Moffia bosses always do. Does this logic equate Rummy et al as the Moffia?
Sali(R) Idaho Army regs re: notify family?
Brown: Immediately if there is an investigation. No later than 30 days and must be kept informed.
Sali: 37 days with Tillman’s
Brown: Dunno
Abizaid: A little over 30 days for Tillman family told that there was an investigation.
Had to come back on for a second….that’s my congressman. :[
Oh great …. he yields to Issa the snake.
Sali is wasting time. Poor Idaho!
And now Issa is back up being a ***!
Sorry mods, but here’s my comment/observation:
Based on what I’ve read this a.m., I’m not as frustrated as you all. It reads like they have completely failed to take responsibility, answer questions, clarify inconsistencies. This further causes the “common citizen” to think they’re covering up something awful.
In a horrible way, this is one more knife in the heart of this evil administration.
Issa has “hood winked” his district in SD…What fools
Shorter Issa: they’re all volunteers, so what’s the problem? Don’t you agree, General?
Issa: During Vietnam we were drafting those not in college. It was a military of the poor. This time around they all know they are going to war and they chose to. This is the right way to do it. With volumteers.
Brown: All volunteer army is best.
QuakerGirl @ 139
purty much spot-on, sadly.
how do they sleep at night?!
Issa: Rich college kids didn’t go to Vietnam….ya mean like Bush and Cheney?!?! God, he’s such a tool that he just slammed his fuhrer!
Issa…. Tillman volunteered so therefore it was……suicide
oh how I wish I could say what I really think of Issa!!!! I mean blog about!
CNN on Tillman, “still unanswered questions”, “may have gone as far as the White House”, “Kensinger could not be located”
Lynch talking around asking the question: Who re-wrote the report?
Adie @ 147
Lynch: Where Tillman was killed, there was chaos. O’Neal was with Tillman, and wrote a witness statement immediately afterward that said it was FF. It was changed. While I understand the chaos the rewriting happened after the smoke had cleared. There is somethng else going on here. Some people think it’s a mix up not cover-up.
1oldlady @ 150
you’re very eloquent.
we caught your thought pretty much in its entirety. ;->
Lynch is asking questions of substance – the revision of the written report of eye witnesses. Not letting them use the excuse “the fog of war”.
Shorter Issa: It’s all Tillman’s fault. Earlier he insinuated in a backhanded compliment that Tillman stood up when he should have stayed down and he got shot..then he turned around and said that because he stood up to defend his fellow soldiers, he should receive the Silver Star. He just did the same thing with insinuating that Tillman and every other soldier in this war, as opposed to Vietnam, because they are volunteers, they get what they deserve. Issa is despicable.
Helen @ 154
WHO, Lynch? Betcha can’t name ONE!
Adie @ 145
Easy when you have no soul or conscience. It’s called A-moral, much like Ted Bundy and other psychopaths.
rummy has no no no no no experience,knowledge,recollection….
surprise.
Finally, the question-who rewrote the report?
Rummy-I know nothing about nothing.
Myers: Not a clue. Shouldn’t have happened.
Abizaid: Nobody said anything to ME-and when they did, I was on it. No excuses.
The Inca has landed. . .
I’m in a Cosi on free wifi in an underground concourse adjacent to my hotel. I’m not actually staying at the convention center, alas.
How’s everyone doing?
Helen @ 152
Bright Shiny Mixed Up Friendly Fire, that we judiciously study…Or it is a cover up.
AZ Matt @ 142
Yep. He’s the total package. Mouth-breathing, arrogant, self-righteous, a**hole.
Even the Republicans in this state hate his guts. But, he had an (R) after his name, so he got elected. I love this state, but Sweet Jesus I hate the politics.
abuzade: “we screwed up. no details at 11″
ooooohhhhhhhh, okay.
Lynch; We still don’t know what happened. How did the eyewitness testimony get changed? How did we all get a different story?
Rummy: Dunno
Myers: Dunno
Abizaid: Dunno
General Brown: I made a BAD CALL. Sorry.
Helen @ 165
Brown: I dunno either
Well. If they admit to mishaps, these are impeachable offenses! Even incompetence
Helen @ 168
Sorry to be a broken record, but the next question should’ve been, why don’t you know? What steps have you taken to find out? What answers were you given? It’s really not all that hard.
Pach, welcome to the Tillman “we know nothing” hearing.
eCAHNomics @ 160
Here’s what he said yesterday:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics…..amp;page=2
Gittins also dismissed accusations that Kensinger should have told the Tillman family about the possibility of friendly fire, saying the retired general “was not the release authority for the information.” That “release authority,” Gittins said, was Gen. John Abizaid, then the head of Central Command.
Gittins said Kensinger was away on business travel. In his testimony in December, Kensinger said he is a consultant for four firms.
Kensinger “declined the committee invitation to testify two weeks ago, so it was no surprise to the committee that he had no intent to participate in a hearing that is all about show and no substance,” Gittins said without elaboration.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content in moderation.~~~
OK. The reason to keep one-liners and off-topic comments out of live blog is that folks depend on this thread to convey hearing details. When the thread fills up too fast, it becomes slow and less manageable.
Please keep comments on-topic and related to the testimony, and those who can’t watch with us will be able to follow the hearing.
Firepups: I am fading fast and they are just repeating themselves now. Can someone else take over the live-blogging?
Hi, Pachacutec! That Cosi wouldn’t be near the Hyatt Regency would it?
The witnesses at the Tillman hearing are doing the “I don’t know” Tango and the “I don’t recall” Rhumba today.
My mind’s reeling at the thought that the no-show general might have committed suicide…
cue up Blondie’s “I know, but I Don’t Know”
Pach! You dog! Wishing I was in Chicago, man. Take no prisoners!
Pachacutec @ 164
Hi Pach! So you get a week of nice vigorous exercise? You could always grab a bottle and sit in the corner of a meeting room if it gets too too much. But you won’t do that now, will ya?! HAVE FUN! We’re with you guys in spirit!
;->
Helen @ 175
I would, except my keyboard is “sticking” on the space bar.
I wish someone on that pannel would ask real bold questions about all of this!
If i heard right, Meyers being a chief of staff said “it would be irresponsible of me to ask the ARMY”
WHAT???????
Pachacutec @ 164
preserving FDL servers.
keeping on keeping on.
c-span 3 tillman hearings.
come snark at facebook, too.
Yep, near Hyatt Regency.
Ah, Sgt. Schultz is giving testimony all day on behalf of the Pentagon today?
I’m shocked.
So glad I have filtered water to drink back home. Look what happens to your memory around DC, after all.
Richard Myers -Former Chmn. joint Chiefs:
Explains “command influence” — don’t want some defense attorney saying such and such.
What about risk that some prosecutor will say, Chmn has looked at this and concluded that …..?
Why is defense attorney always the bad guy?
martha @ 143
I don’t think there are millions of people watching this hearing and if there are a small percentage of them are aware that evidence was destroyed, an initial report unfavorable that called this criminal negligence was destroyed, witness statements were changed, the distance from whcih the fatal shots were fired was extremely close to Tillman, there was no longer an enemy around when Tillman was shot, etc.
Don’t expect the MSM to report this as anything other than the Dems trying to find something that sadly isn’t there. This will be spun as the Dems trying to make political points by dredging up the terrible thing that happened to Pat Tillman.
As for a volunteer army, we as a nation would be much beter off with a draft where everyone is liable to be called up. We’d be better off with a mandated national service of some sort so that people are taught the importance of giving back to others before running out to enrich themselves in this consumer driven society.
Completely OT…the DOW will drop another 200 points before it hits any new highs. This economy is as bogus as the war on terror.
Murphy: Should you have considered the family?
Myers: Didn’t occur to me. Shit happens in war.
Brown: I wasn’t part of the process and wasn’t involved till later. I tried to beat the press to the family.
Helen @ 175
Helen. THANK YOU! Sounds as if they’re winding down anyway. Thank goddesses for YouTube and C-Span re-runs. Go get a cuppa. ;->
Sorry, Mod! No more off topic intrusion from me.
As you were, troops. Please spare the comment threads. I’m going on radio silence for a bit.
AP lede on story via ESPN:
Did anyone know this?
The chaplain’s name is blacked out in the documents. The chaplain told investigators that O’Neal said Tillman was harsh in his last moments, snapping, ‘Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling …”
from http://talkingpointsmemo.com/n….._final.php
Why havent questions regarding this not raised?
RonD liveblogging?
Go for it… Thanks.
Thanks again, Helen! Great job!
Do the private contractors in Iraq have access to humvees to drive? Either here or at another site yesterday I read that a humvee drove up and those inside started firing.
Private corporations doing data mining? Private contractors doing — what — selective friendly fire?
Brown wants to elaborate?
Brown: we weren’t hiding the truth. We were protecting the integrity of the investigation.
eCAHNomics @ 101
Tillman shouting, waving, smoke grenade, signalling to Rangers in canyon that they are friendlies, while O’neal lay next to him praying, snivelling, frozen (whatever, depending on the account to read).
I want a question about the three bullets in a 2 inch circle on Tillman’s forehead, and the medical examiners questions/call for criminal investigation (again, excuse me if I missed it, I’m olny catching bits)
The initial 15-6 was by capt. Scott and it was destroyed.
behindthefall @ 191
Good question! War for profit…Ask Issa that question!
Adie @ 158
It’s all cleared up.
police have arrested a gunman at the texas theatre.
he is apparently a well known communist sympathizer.
his full bio appeared in new zealand newspapers earlier today prior to the shooting.
he works in the book depository.
it’s all cleared up.
move along.
1oldlady @ 190
This is even more interesting because, I believe, if not mistaken, that Kensinger was the General that made desparaging comments about the Tillman family regarding a lack of faith as the reason the Tillmans couldn’t “get over” Pat’s death. Even called them “atheists” and Pat “worm dirt” in an oblique fashion…I’ll try to find the source…
RonD @ 192
Someone on that committee should ask him to clarify the difference!
In My Dreams…Kensinger will magically turn up to testify and completely contradict the testimony of
Rummy and teh generals… with documents
All right, already. It’s been firmly established Pat Tillman’s family was both misinformed re; the nature of his death and that info was withheld beyond normal practices.
So, can someone on the committee move on and ask if it’s standard operating procedure to burn the clothing and diary of dead U.S. soldiers? From there, were they aware of Pat Tilman’s political opinions and his trying to set up a meeting with noam Chomsky?
Honda: Who changed the report?
Brown: I dunno.
Abizaid:Not sure we’re talking about the same report. A series of dates.
Waxman: Have you ever received a p-4 like that? Trying to avoid emarrassing the White House?
Brown: Yes. I’ve gotten some very strange p-4’s.
Because most people won’t care about what happened to Tillman, it is our responsibility to be witness to this. It’s uncomfortable, mostly boring and hard to stay engaged. Boy, I wish someone would get me a cup of Java. I already gulped down a pot of tea. All that caffine but these guys are worse than the strongest sleeping pills.
cynthia @ 199
too much information! lighten up!
stuff happens! freedom is messy! ‘pussy foot’ is the name of the game. play along!
Abazaid said he told the General in general terms….
Sorry mods
In other news, Obama says that if Pakistan doesn’t cooperate in exgorging Osama Bin Ladin, et al., he would invade Pakistan.
CYA!!!! AT all costs!
“The troublemaker wants to talk to Chomsky. I feel like killing somebody today.” Too big a stretch? I have read the second sentence as a quote attributed to a private contractor in Baghdad as he headed out to drive around the city — and he was then reported to have done just that. Wish I had the link.
Freudian slip by Myers: Corporal “Killman”
Waxman concluding.
All senior leaders knew the truth before the family-Rummy interrupting-
Rummy: I know that I knew, but I don’t know how I didn’t know when I knew.
Myers: Me too.
anyone got the “i don’t recall” count?
at the time Abazaid said he wanted “the leadership” to know, Abazaid knew exactly who that leadership was he was referring to. Now, he’s vague about who
valletta @ 197
Please do. What is the connection to Tillman?
I’ve been gone an hour. Came back. I had Rumsfeld et all at 37 IDR’s at 8:15 am PDT. Anybody still keeping track? It is like I didn’t even leave.
Fresh thread!
RonD @ 200
addendum:
Gen Myers? “I agree with Brown”
About what?
Huh? What did he say? What was the question?
Quote of the day?
rummy: “I want to correct my testimony. My testimony is that I was told later when it was that I was informed.” that’s our boy!?!
Code Pink unleashed!
“Donald Rumsfeld, you’re a war criminal!”
War Criminals!!!
P J Evans @ 32
Now that the liveblogging is over, I gotta respond. On a thread yesterday, Other Pat said:
Other Pat was right that there is a difference between can’t and don’t. However, don’t is NOT a statement of condition of the moment—it is used to express the negative form of the present simple tense, which is a statement of habit—as in I like chocolate, or I don’t know Arabic. And anyway, recall is not a verb that is correctly used in the present continuous tense to express a condition of the moment. We don’t say “I am recalling” (and therefore we also do not say “I am not recalling”). Instead, the correct usage of recall to refer to a condition of the moment is through the present simple tense: “recall”, as in “I recall”. We use don’t to form the negative of the present simple tense which in this case is “I don’t recall”.
So, there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with witnesses saying, “I don’t recall”. In fact, it is probably the better choice for the snakey witnesses who are really expressing that it is their HABIT not to recall! /end rant
Rummy, when did he know it was friendly fire? “My testimony is, I do not recall.”
I am trying to think of a snarky reply…
Frank33 @ 218
War Criminal is a pretty good fit.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..worm-dirt/
It was Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich
Don’t have a source but heard Wesley Clark said orders came from high up that Pat Tillman was to be murdered.High profile …could tell and probably would tell what was going on. Someone should ask why a video was taken of the murder. Saw that on Democracy Now.
1oldlady @ 189
Such information opens up a pandora’s box re: Fragging.
In my 57 years I have never seen such a goofy bunch of comments, in response to the goofiest congressman that has ever served (using the term “served” loosely).
This is simple minded drama intended to keep the liberal moo-cows in their fold. In firefights, it’s chaos and friendly fire is as dangerous as enemy fire (Marines, Vietnam, 1968-9). The coverup is inexcusable, but to write what has been written above is childish at best, and insulting at worst. Maybe someday the Democratic Party will re-discover how to govern – till then, we get Waxman.
Just like everything in the Bush administration, the Pentagon has become nothing more than an arm of Karl Rove’s political “chop shop.”
Everything is reviewed by Karl Rove, for him to determine how best to spin whatever it is politically.
Pat Tillman enlists…Karl Rove would have been consulted.
Pat Tillman dies…Karl Rove would have been consulted.
Rummy and the Generals, basically, were not only covering their own asses, but also covering for Karl Rove.
Which makes getting those RNC emails that much more important, especially any emails generated by or sent to Karl Rove during the months after Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan.
Karl Rove is the poisonous spider at the center of this Republican web of deception and lies.
QuakerGirl @ 106
Obviously those are the guys who should investigate Abu Ghraib.
Don’t these guys know that the very thing they think is so effective (saying “I don’t know.”) is the very thing which tips off that they ALL knew and were part of this assassination?
How bout this for a cover-up?
Secretary of Commerce is under investigation for taking bribes, by a special prosecutor. The year is 96, the location is croatia.
Anybody want to guess why a secretary of commerce, under investigation by a special prosecutor, is flying around a soon to be war zone in the Baltics?
No press access to the site for days, until the fbi can clear the site.
The only thing I remember was at that time we were giving our sattelite tech to Chinese, so that they could launch it for us, with the promise not to peak inside.
A little more sinister than Tilman.
Ron Brown was a fundraiser for wjc, and was actually one of three fundraisers for wjc to die in a plane accident. Another committed suicide.
The plane he was on did not have a black box. Every other model in use at the time had a black box.
On November 29, 1996 Barbara Wise was found dead and bruised
from head to waist in a locked Commerce Department office. She was Ron Brown’s secretary. Clinton returned early from Camp David, in the middle of a weekend on the same day.