Late breaking news has taken precedence over the rather fluffy post that previously occupied this space. What’s everyone hearing about what’s happening in Minneapolis/St. Paul?
This is all I have so far:
An Interstate highway bridge in central Minneapolis loaded with rush-hour traffic dropped more than 60 feet into the Mississippi River tonight, sending at least 50 vehicles and passengers into the water below.
Mayor R.T. Rybak of Minneapolis said that at least six people were killed in the bridge collapse. Local officials warned that the number of fatalities was likely to increase through the night. One witness told CNN that a policeman said he had seen seven bodies. Dozens of injured drivers and passengers were taken to area hospitals.
The eight-lane Interstate 35 bridge, a major link between Minneapolis and St. Paul, was being repaired at the time, and an eyewitness told MSNBC that he had heard a jackhammer being used on the roadway just before the collapse at about 6 p.m. local time. Witnesses said the bridge, which was built in 1967, collapsed in three sections, sending a plume of smoke 100 feet into the sky.
The AP wire here in the radio control room says 6 dead, 28 injured. Please take a moment tonight to pray for the families affected by this tragedy.
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{{{{{Minneapolis}}}}}}
Ditto LL !!!
lots of comments downstairs about the firepups in the area. So far most have checked in ok.
Zed?
How many others are there? How bad are they?
Time for an accounting. No stonewalling allowed.
Is this the same thread that crashed?
Nope, change of plans.
Congratulations on introducing a blog about infrastructure breakdown with a 404 error message. Subtle, yet very effective.
I still give Bonds an ASSterisk.
KO is still on the story, and the latest is seven fatalities :-(
wangdangdoodle @ 6
No, this is a different post. It seems that the powers that be decided to go for a clean sweep.
Never mind *G*
Ya think that now’s as good a time as any to advocate for universal health care? By the numbers, anticipate that 15% of the victims are uninsured and 12 % of the children injured are uninsured. Then, guess that the injuries are complex – brain injuries, fractures, internal bleeding and organ damage, mental health trauma – many will need intensive care and also long term rehabilitation. How many will lose their jobs and their insurance coverage? How many will lose their financial footing?
Lessons to be learned here – get the Dems to use this as a scorecard.
Evening all. Some outrageous fuckery there. I fear we have for too long failed to maintain vital infrastructure. The problems that showed up with the power grid a few tears ago, inadequate bridge maintenance (there was a report a few years ago that was almost enough to make you avoid bridges altogether), and on and on.
We praying for this, from the International House of Prayer in KC.
God is in control.
EvilDrPuma @ 11
Ours is not to wonder wi.
DrDick @ 13
I blame Bush.
I let downstairs know that you changed posts and gave them the corrected link, TRex.
Suzanne @ 17
Best mod evah.
Can I get a second?
EPU’ed
re: bridge collapse
Not resonance/oscillation. That has been known about since before the Tacoma Narrows collapse. In fact, thats why the film exists…they knew it would happen & when conditions would be right (wind). All bridges since then have been designed to prevent such response.
Look at fatique, corrosion, erosion or a combination of these factors.
Overloading not likely, but not impossible. (design loads & safety factor, rather than the idea of redundancy that someone mentioned above)
Or you might say “overloaded” after reduced capacity due to fatigue, corrosion and/or erosion.
And I’ll add this possibility: construction/repair blunder.
Just some thoughts, given the limited photos available.
wangdangdoodle @ 18
Seconded.
man.
folks been camped out here for weeks already.
oh, well …
“ZED!”
Suzanne @ 17
Thanks, Suzanne.
I won’t be around after midnight since I’m laptopless. But I have a post in the queue for Late Late Nite.
lots of posting earlier Trex – i swear its awful – very poor infrastructure maintenance in the land – not just in minneapolis
Laptopless in Chicago? The horror!
LoudounLib @ 20
Emotion passes. Bang! Bang!
I think I saw somewhere that the bridge has been under reconstruction.
You guys are free to correct me, however.
With full credit to Miss Kitty over at C&L: “Spending money over there so we don’t have to spend it over here” Hoorah!
N=1,
I’m sorry I had to leave the other night (actually wee hours of the morning).
I and many others have been wondering how you are, where, etc.
And now my son wants to use the computer so I’ll be back in an hour or so.
LoudounLib @ 20
All in fayvah, say Aye !
Aye !!!
Suzanne @ 24
That gives a new meaning to lap dancing, too….
juslin @ 23
No, not just in Minneapolis…Minneapolis just happens to be the place where the shit first hits the fan. I’m sure we can expect an overwhelming compassionate response from BushCo, just like Katrina.
EvilDrPuma @ 16
That too, but this goes far beyond Bush. All the years of a Republican controlled Congress and state governments, as well as shortsighted profit-taking by corporations (the electrical grid is a classic example).
TRex @ 22
Laptopless? Oh my! And might I add heavens to Betsy!!
This link will take you to the current cost of the war, now about 448.3 billion dollars. From the link you can also see other ways we could have spent the money.
Today, as congress debated the insurance for kidlings program, SCHIP, someone, (Claire McClaskill?) pointed out that we could insure every kid for a year, for the cost of the war for a month.
What could be done for infrastructure?
yes, lots of details from us twincities firepups in the last two threads.
As you can imagine, being a major link (but not to St Paul, that would be the Interstate 94 bridge a mile or so downstream) most of us here know people who should have been near the bridge at that time. I would be either going to or coming home from work via that bridge (depending on art department shift) near time of collapse, luckily i took a 5 week contract at a site in the western suburbs since there was a lull in work at my usual site.
Mother of my son-in-law (stationed in Bahgdad) usually is heading home from work around that time on parkway under the bridge. Thank goodness she was in St Paul as company picnic was at Como Park this afternoon.
I don’t think terrorism, but i wonder about crumbly limestone in area, plus with drought if the aquifers are dropping, perhaps a sinkhole opened up near pylon (or whatever those things are called). The cliffs/banks of river are riddled with limestone caves.
(blushing) thanks
So tragic, such a horrible trauma for those involved. I hope there is adequate mental health counseling available for those affected.
Now, having said that, I HAD to transport a comment I left at Digby’s over here, because I think we need a groundswell to change things, and maybe I can play a small part:(sorry it’s a little shall we say “salty” but I feel very strongly)
What will it take to get you all together to vote Green? If everybody does it, it ain’t a wasted vote, now is it? If everybody does it in massive numbers, we can teach the Dems a lessson they will never, never forget.
But as long as a goodly portion of you keep wagging your fingers at the rest of us about throwing away votes and costing our dear little Dems seats they deserve less than my little dog Sugar (all five pounds of her would rip your throat out if you dared cross me)how will we ever hold them accountable? Answer me that? WHY should they stop attacking and disprespecting the base? We keep sending them back regardless, don’t we? Nevermind MCA, send them back. Nevermind impeachable offenses gone unchallenged, send them back. Nevermind..nevermind, you get the point, now whatcha gonna fucking DO about it?
Start threatening them NOW (to vote Green) , start sending money to Kucinich and Green party members NOW, start blogging every fucking day about the lousy whores who roll over at a whispered “boo”. Just DO IT, nobody is going to do it for you. So stop whining and REALLY take matters into your own hands.
In addition,..
The Dems will roll over on the FISA revisions, despite the fact that it is obviously a ploy by the WH to not only rub Dem faces in their own powerlessness (Abu Gonzo to decide who and how to wiretap? nevermind he needs impeaching) but more importantly, they WILL insert retroactive immunity for previous and ongoing illegal FISA violations. Think about it.
I’m sure all my family & friends living in Mpls are fine but it is frustrating that phone circuits are not working yet.
TRex @ 26
That was what I read in the AP account at Yahoo. All it mentioned was resurfacing, though.
LoudounLib @ 20
Thirded.
More greetings from the Twin Cities, pups. A sad day. Just reviewing some of the comments downstairs — as a NOLa native now living way upriver, I particularly appreciate Woodhall Hollow’s “Katrina Lite.” Indeed.
Yet another wake-up call.
Grateful & reassured by the wisdom & wit at the lake, with extra good wishes for fellow TCers.
Yes, it appears the bridge was under some sort of renovation. So in some regards it may be fortunate because 4 lane bridge was restricted to 2 lanes, thus reducing potential casualties.
-GSD
TRex @ 26
They were widening it, and indeed they were using a jackhammer on it.
FishtownTom @ 27
That just cracked my shit UP! In a way that’s not so funny if I stop to think aboudit.
Rescuers just moved from rescue to recovery mode. Not good.
This is the kind of thing we would never expect in Minnesota.
TRex @ 26
I was just reading the latest on the story and you are correct.
Petrocelli @ 29
Snarkassandra would say aye, aye, aye, aye, aye, aye, aye, . . .
Balrog @ 45
Well, from me to you and the other local pups, I’m just damned sorry you had something like this happen.
eCAHNomics @ 47
ssnnnrrrkkkkk!!!
FROM MINNESOTA: We have not been able to get the Budget for Road and Bridge Repair Legislation improvements passed due to vetoes and threats of same for many years – raising gasoline taxes has been taboo to their agenda. Whether or not it had any impact I don’t know.
TRex @ 26
No, just the regular kind of MN repair (salt does a # on infrastructure). There is a major reconstruction on 35W several miles south of there, probably where the MSM is making the mistake, confusing it with the 62/35W exchange reconstruction.
KO said (during his coverage) that there was a notice posted about some pile driving work that was going to going on for future widening of the bridge.
EDP@31
hmmm heckuva job……? isn’t clinton responsible for this…… as is everything in bushco world
stephen conover @ 50
Maybe during the next election there’ll be some people paying attention. We can only hope.
stephen conover @ 50
But one might take a wild guess!
Balrog @ 45
For once, I’m speechless … love to all of you !
EvilDrPuma @ 48
Ditto.
BigMitch @ 43
Yes, a jackhammer for resurfacing, but not widening. the widening is happening 5 mi or so south where the 62/35W exchange is being widened and rebuilt
DrDick @ 13
There was a movement a few years ago (well, more than a few, maybe 15 or 20) to launch a nationwide inspection program for all bridges, which were in poor shape at that time. I recall working with some folks who were developing a robotic inspector that could be attached to the structural spans & creep across from end to end, videotaping critical components from beneath the roadbed. Don’t think the robot or the program ever became a reality.
eCAHNomics @ 55
See my post @ 32.
sunny @ 37
The last time people voted Green (Ralph Nader) it helped Bush get in over Gore.
If you can get “everybody” to vote Green, it’s much more practical to get them to vote for real Democrats in the Democratic primary.
A vote for the Greens is a vote for KKKKKarl Rove.
david gagne at 14—–i know someone with your last name, he is from maine, but lived in ohio, he is now in iraq, i just thought it strange, is a rare, french-canadian surname………
gagne—–gahn yay
thanks for your thoughts.
Just like on 9/11 when there were kids that weren’t picked-up at daycare and school.
Sad day.
Not to mention the numerous bridge bombings in Iraq and the untold damage to that nation and the people.
-GSD
Before the accident, KO was running a teaser that indicated he was going to be all over T I L L M A N
The construction was only resurfacing. Phone lines are back up mostly. Local radio (in Minneapolis) said that there was a warning in 2006 about the safety of the bridge. The 468-foot steel cable (suspension only – no support in the middle) snapped.
Not much fun up here tonight.
EvilDrPuma @ 54
Bush would give the repair job to Halliburton.
Seriously, roads are soemthing we all benefit from and we all pay into. However, most funds seem to go more to maintanence and not replacement or heavy major repairs. Out of sight out of mind is teh attitude of most people be it sewer systems or bridges.
rudy ghouliani on charlie rose
dmac @ 66
In light of the current news, hopefully he’s getting the viewership he deserves.
GSD @ 63
Oh fuckity fuck fuck. That hit me.
Has ANY of the MSM gotten an interview with the design firm, the construction firm or the bridge inspector yet? You know the obvious stuff it took us 5 minutes to figure out last thread,
Gunga Dijnn @ 19 alot of the stuff you said should have been caught by an inspection. Now that they are going to examine this bridge to see what happened the only thing that can save everyone involved’s baccon is a flawed bridge design. That would be the politicaly safe verdict if its true and/or if everyone plays ball.
I wonder if anyone has asked the locals if they noticed concrete falling, rust, cracks, exposed rebar etc.
I think Gunja Dijinn is right about the reason for bridge failure, but maybe the inspection reports understated the problem? Perhaps for reasons of cost?
TRex @ 26
The bridge was undergoing resurfacing of the bridge deck, and I think a lane in each direction was closed.
This is an 8 lane freeway and major artery through Minneapolis. Several cars went into the Missisippi river and people were seen swimming away. It was a 65 foot drop.
So far 7 confirmed dead. It’s a miracle it wasn’t immediately higher. Recovery efforts resume tomorrow.
It is amazing how many people ran onto the collapsed but suspended part of the bridge, to help others out of their vehicles and out of the area.
This Story happened like 5 hours ago, and you’re just now pre-empting?
This place has changed. I think.
This morning almost no one was staying on topic.
Yech. That’s all I have to say.
quake @ 61
So you like being attacked and constantly disrespected by the party you support? If we can get EVERYBODY to vote Green, then we’ll teach the Dems a lesson and get some real representation for our progressive values.”Practical” has gotten us in the mess we’re in now. I say, be STRONG and do what is right.
Out for a smoke, back in 50 comments or so…
we live just off (less than a half mile)
Interstate 35.
we are very far to the south,
but our hearts are in Minneapolis tonight.
my sad thought under all the worry about family members (all accounted for now) here in Minneapolis metro, kept thinking, this would probably seem like a day of relief to weary souls of Bahgdad and other locations in Iraq.
Twentieth wedding anniversary for hubby and me today. w00t!
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 75
You’re right, but I nevertheless believe that our grief and anger is fitting and proper.
Terrible OT on Iraq.
Australian troops winning hearts and minds.
-GSD
Renee in Ohio @ 76
Congratulations, Renee
Balrog, so glad your family is safe. Have we heard from the other Minnesota people? (I did see that PW is safe).
demi @ 72
This has been a part of the convesation on the blog for the last couple of hours. A number of people who generally post are travelling so perhaps it just wasn’t possible to change quickly the topics of posts.
demi @ 72
You’re welcome to take the wheel. There is a lot going on tonight.
GSD @ 78
Nice to know we’re not the only nation whose international reputation has been thoroughly fucked over by Bush’s Folly.
sunny @ 73
yeah, maybe.
democrats aren’t all my enemies.
the day the democratic party is THE conservative party (and the republicans are extinct), THEN i can think about jumping ship leftward.
i got NO use for ralph nader.
thanks.
Here’s a local report which is being updated:
http://www.minnesotamonitor.com/magFront.do
Prayers? I think not. Nothing fails quite like prayer. I will, however, write to my reps about the crumbling infrastructure and the role a certain unwarranted war is playing in its acceleration. Both are futile wastes of effort, but the latter at least makes SOME sense.
CL
oh, here, I’ve got an OT – did they ever locate the General who refused to show up for the Tillman hearing today?
What do you suppose is going to happen to that guy?
demi @ 72
“I don’t think this is an appropriate topic for this blog.™”
One half of the bridge had been closed for resurfacing, but that wouldn’t affect the structural portions. Best guesses now are that the steel beams simply went out.
Meanwhile, the best way to get hold of loved ones in the area is by texting, IM and e-mail. Please don’t use cell phones for voice calls as the cell phone network is being stretched right now!
Thanks again, everyone.
TRex @ 83
so what’s the point? that this morning we were OT too soon and tonight we are OT too late?
JHC on a skateboard. Give it a rest. Look at the last post when our Minneapolis folks were agonizing over what was going on, AND apologizing for being OT.
Thanks, Suzanne. :)
AZ Matt @ 81
dmac @ 62
Texas Rangers’ closer Eric Gagne was acquired by the Boston Red Sox on Tuesday in exchange for starting pitcher Kason Gabbard and minor league outfielders David Murphy and Egel Beltre, reports the Boston Herald. Gagne is expected to be used in the set-up role, while occationally filling in for closer Jonathan Papelbon on days he is not available finish games. Gagne was born in Montreal.
TRex: ((((hug))))
Cointreau @ 86
In time of crisis, such callous disrespect for others’ beliefs is even less becoming than it is the rest of the time. Kindly spare us the self-righteousness.
Renee in Ohio @ 77
Congratulations!
EvilDrPuma @ 78
I am angry, Pukelenty & his cronies, the head-up-the-ass taxpayer league have not wanted to spend the necessary $ for anything.
Last year i was disgusted, sickened by well-to-do Rethuglican suburbanites saying “God was punishing New Orleans because it was such a wicked corrupt city (and voted Democrat). This year they’ll probably say “God is punishing Minneapolis because it is such a wicked liberal city, and elected a *gasp* Muslim Congressman.
Where’s the National Guard?
Sobering and tragic infrastructure failures
portending future consequence. Living in
Pittsburgh, bridges, sad rusting structures,
are always on our minds. Truly, our thoughts are in Minneapolis. The soul of our nation
must examine itself. Either the priciples we claim to live by must be embraced by our hearts and our will, or our society shall surely perish.
Loo Hoo. @ 97
I’m guessing they are in Iraq…
Bonds 0-3
Loo Hoo. @ 97
In a godforsaken desert getting shot at – never mind the word NATIONAL.
Well now that was something new, ever have firefox fail and only lose one site in bookmark and two book mark folders?
mickster @ 71
Not amazing. It’s Minnesota.
{{{to MN neighbors tonight}}}
A year or so ago, there was a person from Great Britain that was posting comments at some site or other. One of the things she/he said was that we Americans don’t know what’s going on in our own country. One of the things she/he said that we didn’t know was that our infrastructure was in bad shape. When something like this happens (or the geyser in NYC) I think of that comment.
solai @ 104
We’d have known more sooner if the MSM hadn’t been hot on the trail of Nicole Ritchie’s pregnancy.
I concede-maybe there is a nickels worth of difference between the two parties instead of a dime.
Tell me again how Ralph was wrong? If Gore had actually taken office, would he be the Gore we see today, or the Gore he was then, just as triangulating as the Clinton’s and even afraid to campaign with Bill. What else would he have wussed out on in office? He would not even say the Supremes were wrong, just told us to go along.(at that time. I have much more respect for him now)
Loo Hoo. @ 98
They’ve been in Iraq the some of the longest of any of US troops. Some of them finally came home last week. One reason my son-in-law was grimly willing to go to Iraq…said he’d had the military training and those poor nat. guard folk needed a break.
things come undone @ 70
Yes, but inspectors are notoriously negligent. Witness our problems with food contamination, airport & port screenings, etc..
Flawed design is low on my list; that’s where the redundancy occurs, with every joint, every rivet, every stick of steel being calculated & re-calculated many times by many people. Also read somewhere that this bridge was built in 1967?, so designers & firms are probably long gone.
As for inspectors, some possible scenarios we could see:
1. “Passed” a negligent inspection
2. Failed a proper inspection, which was then suppressed or ignored (i.e. the Boston tunnel collapse)
Seconded. Put a sock in it, buddy.
Okay, I’m signing off. I’ll be offline until someone loans me their laptop in Chicago tomorrow.
Good night!
sunny @ 107
If Gore had taken office, 9-11 might have been averted. And we would not be at war in Iraq.
TRex, safe travels and have a great time!
g’nite TRex and have fun (if possible to have fun while being laptopless in chicago)
OldCoastie @ 100
Fresh back. They did their 22 months.
For this tour.
TRex,
I apologise if your feelings were hurt.
I was trying to make a point, but I guess I didn’t do a very good job.
Oddmommy,
No, it wasn’t that people were OT too soo. The mods continually asked people to stop the one-liners. They didn’t. Please don’t get All Over Me ’cause you feel there are no heroes. Okay? Knee-jerk reactions are understandable, but they don’t always further the main goal.
Is it alright for me to ask a question and to try to bring up something without me having to “take the Wheel”?
BigMitch @ 110
I detest Nader and I wish he would just go away.
I crossed over the bridge this morning and again about 40 minutes before the collapse. There has been construction going on for several weeks – large amounts of concrete had been removed with jackhammers, exposing reinforcement bars and expansion joints. Several areas where new concrete had been poured were covered with plastic sheeting. Today there were two narrow lanes open in each direction, with about equal widths of roadbed under repair and in use by traffic. This morning I saw a lot of twisted rebar in the area of the centerline divide… the reason I recall it clearly is because it looked new (still covered in green paint) yet it was also tangled together as if it was being ripped out rather than installed. My uneducated speculation would be that there was some unanticipated compression or tension of the roadbed which caused the whole thing to destabilize when relieved.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 35
Chris @ 65
Just before cutting away to press conference by the Governor, CNN had a commentator who was talking about a study of bridge failures going way back. He said that erosion from water was a significant factor in most of them.
This was a steel arch span, with the arches under the roadway, and the abutments on the banks of the river. So, a weakening of the supporting bedrock could have led to the failure of the abutments.
Eyewitnesses said that the collapse occurred in 2 or 3 stages — again, when one section fails, it could lead to a cascade effect failure of other parts of the structure.
David W. Bartoo @ 99
Dont forget the Bay Bridge just this past spring in SF.
Nite TRex. Have fun in Chicago.
Here something not to say on a political blog, who on the Dem.s side do you think can work on both repairing our foreign policy and reputation, and repair whats broken in America?
solai @ 105
Lots of us know. I look at the cracks and rust every time i drive the freeways. I’d like to take Pukelenty’s smug born-again face and shove it against some of the cracks, yelling, “look at that you stupid SOB!” (no violence in truth because i’m a wimpy grandma. It’s just my fond fantasy.) He likes being Bush’s latest lap dog tho.
Chris Dickson @ 116
Thank goodness you are safe. Take care.
OldCoastie @ 88
Who is the president trying to hide?
This is the guy who is on the lam:
Lieutenant General Philip Kensinger
so HOW is he not getting, like, arrested for stiffing a subpoena?
Demi,
I didn’t see the pre-empted post so can’t comment on that. As to one-liners this morning, people who comment here are asked to refrain from that during the live-blog and for the most part it seemed to me they did so. You might be better to send your comments to the management of this blog as I am only a person posting my thoughts from a far away place. Talk to Christy or Jane.
Prairie Sunshine @ 117
In California we all know that a big enough earthquake at just the right place and we will have this same thing probably 20 times over.
/apprehension?
yellowdog jim @ 123
He had an interview with a lobbying firm, in a undisclosed location, or was having problems remembering his lines?
Gunga Djinn @ 109
Any Ideas how long it would take to examine the wreckage and get a report on what happened? Assuming of course Bush doesn’t exert Excutive Privledge.
demi, i’m not sure what the problem is – you know that late nite is where off topic is encouraged.
demi @ 115
gevalt. (Mitch, is that a proper usage? I suspect not).
What I said here didn’t have a damn thing to do with feeling there are no heroes 3 threads ago on a different topic. Rather, it was that you just show up after admittedly not knowing what’s gone on for the last 5 hours and chastise us for being off topic 12 hours ago, when we are dealing with a new, and very upsetting situation that just happened. OK, happened in the last 5 hours.
I didn’t say that about taking the wheel, TRex did.
And DO NOT ever accuse me of knee jerk reactions. I have a lot of faults, but that’s not one of them.
AZ Matt @ 123
I usually try to catch up with comments before I jump here.
If you go back to the comments this morning, I think you will see that people did not stop the one-liners.
I think Christy and Jane are in Chicago, so I won’t bother trying to Talk To Them, but I thank you for your response to me.
Renee in Ohio @ 77
we celebrated the two oh this year too.
congratulations to y’all.
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to put on my tin-foil hat here. 9/11 was an inside job. It would have happened whoever was in office. The MIC was going to get it’s GWOT, no matter what. Let Bill Hicks tell you a little story:
no matter what promises you make on the campaign trail – blah, blah, blah – when you win, you go into this smoky room with the twelve industrialist, capitalist scumfucks that got you in there, and this little screen comes down… and it’s a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you’ve never seen before, which looks suspiciously off the grassy knoll…. And then the screen comes up, the lights come on, and they say to the new president, ‘Any questions?’
“Just what my agenda is.”
We need a brave president who would go on TV and tell the world “Hey, these criminals just tried to scare me into a global war”…Gore was not that guy, then.
Remember that frightened deer-caught-in-the-headlights look on shrubs face that day?
First, they have to FIND him to serve the subpoena. Hasn’t happened yet.
yellowdog jim @ 131
Lucky number thirteen on Monday!
yellowdog jim @ 124
Maybe they’ll put his picture on a milk carton.
Or call John Walsh.
Good evening again. Change in shifts.
Pawlenty is a snake. I know he worked to undermine Rep Oberstar’s efforts on highway funding. I will have to search for the local newspaper article where Sen Bakk related the story. I have no use for Pawlenty.
TheOtherWA @ 134
I do not understand why the Sgt At Arms was not ordered to bring him to the chamber immediately upon the general’s nonappearance. Of course, I wondered the same thing about Harriet’s no-show.
mickster @ 71
The bridge was undergoing resurfacing of the bridge deck, and I think a lane in each direction was closed.
This is an 8 lane freeway and major artery through Minneapolis. Several cars went into the Missisippi river and people were seen swimming away. It was a 65 foot drop.
So far 7 confirmed dead. It’s a miracle it wasn’t immediately higher. Recovery efforts resume tomorrow.
It is amazing how many people ran onto the collapsed but suspended part of the bridge, to help others out of their vehicles and out of the area.
—————————–
Actually I don’t think it’s all that amazing that people ran out to save others. MN is the kind of place where a lot of us run outside when a tornado warning goes off because we don’t want to miss anything. I think people just saw people in need and figured that the rubble had settled enough to scramble out on it to help.
My sister’s bus crosses that bridge about the time of the collapse. She had left early today and there were no reports of a transit bus being part of the disaster. She’s OK but very shaken and going to be afraid of bridges for a while. Needless to say the whole Twin Cities area is in shock.
Chris Dickson @ 117
It sounds like the repairs may have compromised the structural integrity of the bridge, which then led to the catastrophic failure.
Not unlike the way the BushCo Republicans have compromised the integrity of the US of A . . .
Have a great time in Chi-town, o mighty theropod!
Big hugs to loohoo and TexB…are you around? anything to report yet (good meal/bad meal, plane trip ok, etc)? Would be nice to hear something lighter to take my mind off tragedy here (7 dead at last count)
its been a harrowing day esp for TCers – hope fatalities stay low – my prayers are with all those who’ve suffered… it’s my time – g’night firepups – here’s to a better tomorrow ;^)
Hey Betsy, how’s Chicago treating you thus far?
bang a gong, get it on
Prairie Sunshine @ 119:
Actually that wasn’t an infrastructure problem per se, indeed not even a problem with the bridge per se. A fuel tanker crashed and burned on an underpass, directly beneath an elevated bridge approach, about half a mile away from the bridge proper. Melted the rebar of the overpass while still inside the concrete, and the whole thing just slumped down in place. Like a great big Dali watch.
g’night Juslin
Tex B (from ILL) @ 137
Evening Betsy. How’s my favorite city treating you?
argosfalcon @ 120
Kucinich
sunny @ 37
Hi Sunny, nice to meetya. Lest our name similarity causes confusion, I’ll note my disagreement. IMHO times are too perilous to endorse divisiveness re: the progressive vote.
Suzanne @ 139, exactly. Go find him.
years ago, i worked for the phone company, outside……..that means i was in manholes and privvy to the infrastructure……….it was crumbling then………so, picture what the situation is now…….bad…….it’s bad……..
AZ Matt @ 124
yes, FWIW, i was reading those threads, and the people that kept violating the mods’ requests were not late nite names. Perhaps it should be brought up at the time of day that those folk tend to post comments.
Suzanne
Yes, I know, that late night is OT. That was not my point. Still want to do ice cream, though.
Has anyone else noticed a different attitude in this site?
Oddmommy, check your numbers.
If any of you would check my original comment, it was a question why the previous post was pre-empted so quickly after it was posted when the tragedy happened so long ago.
The Taking the Wheel wasn’t directed at you. I can read. I apologize if I didn’t make that clear.
TheOtherWA @ 135
Just emailed my army major efriend, asking him what the deal on Kensinger is. Doesn’t seem very military to me, let alone Special Forces, to run away from a process server. Heck, if that’s all it takes to rout the U.S. military, then OBL needs to sue them. What a f***ing coward.
Liveblog thus far —–
Spending the day in airports and airplanes, I remember why I am a homebody. They don’t even serve pretzels anymore — they SELL water bottles and candy bars for $2 each.
Chicago is beautiful, and a study in contrasts. Great to see 40 story buildings sitting right next to 3 floor apts.
The registration organizer of the conference are less than fully prepared and less than fully organized. The 6-8 registration did not begin until after 6:30.
Loo Hoo is wonderful. (Knew she would be.) The hotel is great, but they gave us a single bar of soap for use in shower and sink. Huh???
Looking forward to meeting more firepups tomorrow.
EvilDrPuma @ 135
Congrats to all you loyal couples….seems like progressive folk don’t trade in their mates for newer models as fast as the “family values” crowd.
Phoenix Woman @ 89
Quoting again down thread to emphasize that if you need to contact anyone in the MSP area to use a land line or email any relatives or friends you are concerned about. Cell phones have are busy and requested by officials to be used spareingly, so emergency responders can have access.
OT.. or maybe way OT… I am interested in how to prop up the courage of congressional Dems to assert their constitutionally derived power of oversight, inherent contempt, and impeachment.
Mabe a subject of another post. ;-)
demi, the only diff i notice is that things are kinda hectic and “off” only in that folks are in transit to chicago.
additionally, many people here are understandably upset about the bridge collapse – a subject that brings to the front all of our other fears, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc. nerves are running a bit raw from that.
perhaps we should just agree to discuss this at a later time (including over ice cream) when things calm down a wee bit.
and ghouliani on charlie rose—-
a high school understanding of issues and the world, basic basic basic understanding of issues and international policy……scary……..expressed through the language of a junior high school student that makes c’s.
duh duh duh duh duh duh duh
and he blinks a lot, which i ‘m surprised noone comments about, he blinks a lot……..
and he grosses me out………..
Well as to things seismic don’t forget New Madrid fault zone, the only thing to make the Mississippi run backward in spots (army corps excepted). Its these tragic events that warn us to pay heed to that which we take for granted. An electrical grid old and failing, roadways and bridges under maintained, hell we let our government get highjacked. Why I don’t know could it be the collective we were too focused on the short term disinterested, until got so bad we could not ignore these problems anymore? And how do you change the pattern of self absorbed introspection?
Betsy, so glad that you made this trip…we’re going to look forward to a whole lot of that love-blogging from you and Loo Hoo!
This TCer calling it a night, too. A local report — KSTP? — reported more bodies found. And local radio talking about lots of cars in the water. This isn’t good.
Another report talking about where people are going for info when they can’t reach their loved ones. That hit hard.
Time to ask that good old opinion poll question: Is the U.S. on the right track or the wrong track?
But to leave things on a more positive note, I had dinner with a sort-of-new friend tonight, connected thru our kids’ school, so politics hasn’t come up, but I’ve suspected a strong conservative streak. Well, I was right. But we had a very thoughtful discussion about our fears for our country and our kids’ futures, and we’re not too far apart on some of the problems. And I was encouraged by how well she listened to what I had to say about solutions.
Peace, all.
Suzanne @ 158
I hear you.
(whispering) okay…
The cell phone problem – is that unique to Minneapolis or is cell use always problematic in disasters? Is there anything that can be done to strengthen this weakness?
Hi SunnyNobility, nice to meet you too. I hope and pray that we can all agree that the Dems as a party are very far from representing our progressive values. Even Sherrod Brown voted for the MCA, which enshrined torture into our national DNA, and gave a pass to shrub for having engaged in it in the past. Now, the Dems are going to do the same with FISA-revising it to suit the shrub and retroactively legalising violations of it. How can we continue to support a party which, at EVERY turn, dismisses our concerns and plays more to the Republican base than their own? And please don’t talk to me about investigations, for how are they doing any good if they continue to refuse to hold them accountable for perjury and ignoring subpoenas? These hearing are for one purpose-to keep the base from mutiny.
I say it’s time to abandon ship.
Tex B (from ILL) @ 157
Registratioin at any Convention is pretty much always late. I’ve never known one to go perfectly yet in the 4 years i’ve been going. They go well, but never ever perfectly on time. *grins* I imagine some other more experienced con-goers can tell you the same.
About the pretzel venders? they’re still there, but you have to look for them. It sucks because i’d rather have a nice warm pretzel than a candy bar too!
http://corner.nationalreview.c…..JjZGZkZDI=
Because the left hates America…
Isn’t that just a ‘move along people’?
:) demi – glad to know we are still on for that ice cream – when you coming up again?
sunny said
OK, you have just revealed yourself as a genuine tinfoil-hat wearer. You might just be happier someplace else, some blog where people go for wild-eyed conspiracy theory instead of fact-based evaluation and logic-based arguments. You stopped making sense a couple of postings ago.
Pardon me if I’m rude, but this stuff has made me fed up. This silliness is taking up bandwidth.
Mommybrain @ 165
I think it’s just a problem that the towers can only handle so many calls at one time… the system just gets quite overwhelmed when everyone hits the phone at the same moment.
g’nite nola sue
Suzanne @ 168
‘Bout three weeks. I will call and email you.
(With that Extreme Fire Warning, I guess we can’t do it ’round a campfire. Maybe candles?)
My thoughts and prayers are with the people of the Twin Cities tonight, and with all my firedog brethren who live there or who have loved ones who do. I hope, I pray, that if you are reading this, everyone you know is safe and sound, whether it be in Minnesota or elsewhere.
Tomorrow or the next day there will be time for recrimination, for finger pointing, and for some very, very hard questions. Right now is the time to hold each other close, and to be so very thankful that for right now we’re safe. No, the scope of this disaster is not as great as that of Katrina or the WTC, or Oklahoma City, but for those who it touches it is just as real, just as horrifying, just as devastating.
Tonight be thankful for what you’ve got. If you have children, go and check on them, watch them sleeping, and count yourself blessed. For those of you sitting comfortably, as I am, far from the site of this tragedy, pray for those not as fortunate as yourself, and not just the ones in Minneapolis/St Paul, but also for the children who go to bed hungry each night, for the elderly in pain because they can’t afford the medicine to ease their suffering, and especially for our boys and girls in Iraq (face it: for the most part they’re not men and women; they’re boys and girls, not much more than babies) who are fighting and dying over there.
And they don’t even fucking know why. (And, frankly, neither do I).
Good night, sleep tight, and say a prayer for all those people whose faces you will never see and names you will never know.
Prospero
demi – or on my deck overlooking the creek in the redwoods
Mommybrain @ 167
9/11 knocked out cell phone transmitters on top of WTC. My son was in college on West Coast. His cell phone didn’t work & I had to wait until school offices opened to find out how toget ahold of him on a land line to let him know I was OK. But the regular phones were fine.
argos at 103-”Well now that was something new, ever have firefox fail and only lose one site in bookmark and two book mark folders?”
a couple of people mentioned this happening in a prior thread, for a few, it was what happened right before their computers crashed……..for others, they just updated and problem solved……
well, ok……I sooo shouldn’t say this, but WTF……demi, why don’t you get together with Kathleen and form a psycho-auxiliary fdl?
Ah, Civil discourse is so refreshing, blending courage, tolerance and understanding.
tryggth @ 167
Fuck Kathryn Jean Lopez and the knock-kneed pony she rode in on.
prospero, that was so well said. thank you for putting into words what i have been having trouble saying all evening.
argosfalcon, but the Waltons got their tax relief! You simply must get your priorities straight, the Nordstroms, Mars, and Campbells need that money desperately. After all they spent millions to ensure that the would get out of the “Death Tax”. Remember, it was hurting the family farmers, lack of proof notwithstanding…
btw, Grumman Gulfstreams don’t need no steenking infrastructure.
David W. Bartoo @ 180
Is it my imagination, or have commenters been more testy of late?
LoudounLib @ 162
i second that, thanks for the first report, TexB. If you two see the Mighty Theropod tomorrow, give him a hug from all the late night pups, after all he’s our patron saint ;-)
My daughter will probably be in Grant park on Sunday also listening to Amy Winehouse, TRex wants to go also. And i’ll be sitting in rural Wisc, (sniff, dabs at tears) babysitting. (NO, grandma, I”M the TRex! You be the stegasaurus!)
Well the little guy crashed as well, guess that what you get when you build your own computer, guess I should have out sourced myself.
BigMitch @ 43
Couldn’t sleep, so here I am again. And it really isn’t all about me, for pete’s sake!
Crew was doing routine maintenance, e.g., repairing guardrails, lights, some cement work and some joint work.
Freeway is 6 lanes, but was closed to 4 because of the construction.
They have shut down search and rescue for the night. Too dark. Current of Mississippi too fast. Too much debris.
Likelihood of additional deaths high.
Likelihood of terrorism low.
Likelihood that Minneapolis will sleep well tonight very low.
Likelihood that I will beg BushCo to keep Junior home, because every time he comes here, it snarls up traffic everywhere for hours. Don’t need that right now. Anyone got influence?
Sorry, Suzanne, but I just can’t help saying this — As much as this is a huge tragedy, I can’t help thinking that people in Iraq are experiencing horrible catastropes daily, with many more deaths and we are just getting a little glimpse of what is a tiny bit of what they deal with.
I heard a scientist on MSNBC earlier saying that the bridge collapsed Not from a singular point, but from the two ends…and I couldn’t help wondering if this was a shiney thing brought about by…oh someone who wanted to take our attention away from the train wreck that is on its way from happening in DC. I’m not usually a conspiracy-girl, but I did wonder.
oddmommy @ 177
oddmommy, you know that the policy is to disagree with the statement but not to attack the commenter.
as moderator, i’m blowing my whistle and giving everyone one warning.
disagree with the message but do not flame the commenter.
nonplussed @ 182
Try and land one without a runway. LOL
How deep isthe Mississippi where the bridge collapsed?
eCAHNomics @ 182
Absolutely ! Makes me nervous. I really love it here at FDL and feel as if I actually know all of you and it’s like 2 close friends having a fight. I think tempers are short because we are all troubled by the times we live in and can’t get out of right now.
Suzanne @ 174
A Way Better suggestion.
Another Minneapolitan chiming in. I made my very first post after lurking here for months just this morning. My comment was “Pawlenty is a tool.”
Prophetic?
Shocking event here. Fortunately, me and mine are fine. I hope the same is true of you and yours.
hmm – commenters getting testy?
Yeah, I seem to be. Prob’ly means I should give it up and go to bed.
If I overdid it in my last post, I apologize. Usually don’t react that way.
(rubbing eyes, yawning….yeah, off to bed w/ me. With luck tomorrow will be a non-rainy day again)
Twain @ 192
Speaking for me, I am depressed beyond belief by what is happening in (what-used-to-be) my country. But one reason I hang out here is because it’s a place to discuss that rationally & reasonably. Let’s not lose that, please.
eCAHNomics @ 191
Not really sure. One report spoke of a semi diving in nose first and only a portion of it visible above water. That said, water levels here (MN) are way, way down because of drought.
tejanarusa @ 195
sleep well.
the thunder followed me to chicago. wild to hear it from the 18th floor!
Indeed so Twain, all you say is true.
Chris Dickson @ 117
I just realized that the photo up-top shows that very thing. Two lanes open per side, 2 or 3 lanes ( shoulder lane?) closed per side. Note the pavement color & traffic cones.
Also, what you describe re: removed concrete, exposed rebar & expansion joints…that doesn’t sound good. Rebar needs concrete, concrete needs rebar, neither will suffice alone. Also, concrete needs adequate cure time to reach design strength (weeks, not hours). Also, many bridges are of a floating deck design, wherebye the road deck (one structure) sits on a support framework (a second structure). In such cases, the joints between the two structures becomes critical, and work on one could potentially destabilize the other (i.e. examples where intact deck has slid off intact columns) Guess I’m trying to describe an assembly failure rather that actual deck or support structure failure.
Glad you missed the event, in any case.
DocRoss @ 194
Cheer for the orange and blue? That DocRoss?
dmac @ 153
Bad … Bad … Bad … is so right.
When Harvard Endowment Fund blows $350 mil in a Hedge Fund implosion, bad can only get worse.
Night tejanarusa.
Umm, yeah I said I was wearing my tin-foil hat. Actually reading someones remarks is a requirement for fact-based evaluation of said remarks. I realize I am engaging in conspiracy theory, but what you are implying by your comment is that the Bushies are incapable of such a horrible plan. Perhaps you would like to tell me what the Bushies have against killing innocent people? Once you answer the question in the only logical way it could be answered, then perhaps you might like to browse some reputable sites and get some facts before coming to definitive conclusions.
Take a look at David Ray Griffin, for fact-based evaluation and logic-based arguments, which I prize beyond pearls.
Suzanne @ 188
sorry, Madame Mod, but I do feel that I was attacked first.
Twain @ 190
Thank you for your consistently uplifting and calming words.
Suzanne @ 181
Yes, thank you, prospero. In the midst of worries about friends & family who commonly go over or under that bridge at that time of day, my thoughts were also of all the people of Iraq who are suffering far worse terrors. I am relieved loved ones are safe but also feeling wretched because my government is causing so many to live with terror and worry hour to hour, day to day, year to year, with no let-up.
OT: Someone tell Michael Beschlos to dial back the tanning booth. Profile in orange.
TheOtherWA @ 134
yes.
but …
this is an uniformed active duty military officer.
he TAKES orders.
his commander can Order him to appear.
he is in the service.
he serves to be served, a subpoena.
evasion of a legal process?
he is running away.
(actually, at this point, i am concerned he has not injured himself, like i’d hate for him to off himself AND if he is REALLY missing, then it could come to that.)
eCAHNomics said;
Yeah, that’s the truth. So sorry if I added any contribution toward irrationality and un-cordiality.
Suzanne, I apologize to you, too, as mod. I’m going off for my calming, soothing sleep at last, and promise to behave better next time.
I stepped out for a while. Please tell me we’re not talking about Ralph fucking Nader anymore.
Daughter who lives close to this bridge just checked in. She used to take it to and from work until a few weeks ago. A new job takes her another direction. I’m so thankful.
wangdangdoodle @ 208
Shhhh.
Well I’m off to finish Jard Diamond, funny if the Middle East had not had wheat, barley, and cattle we never would have been in this mess. Now wait a minute strategic resources necessary for building and maintaining civilizations, naw just a coincidence.
This evening’s snack has been donated to the first responders in Minneapolis.
A reply to argosfalcon and Twains last comments.
I think it’s going to get much worse before it gets better. This country is nowhere near mad enough to demand change yet.
barbara @ 197
So they should be able to recover whatever fell into the river. One of the most trying parts of post 9/11 for people who lost loved ones was the inability to recover remains. In fact, America’s mayor paved the streets with some of them, and earlier this year they scraped up some of the pavement & were able to recover more remains.
Tex B (from ILL) @ 215
Hi TexB!! We’re being testy in your absense.
eCAHNomics @ 190
The water is low now, not much rain. It looked like there were some cars paritally submerged closer to rivers edge, but it seems deep enough that cars would be submerged and out of sight toward the middle. The locks and dam are upriver, maybe a quarter mile that control the flow.
PLovering @ 202
Link on Harvard Endowment losses?
eCAHN…
Commentors have been testy for about the past week or so, since the Iraqi visitor, at least so it seems to me.
We seem a bit fractured and fractious, and it is not encouraging.
The bridge has been undergoing resurfacing, but as far as I know no structural work had been done on it. The bridge is on a major interstate going through Minneapolis, and its collapse is going to have a huge impact on the Twin Cities.
DocRoss @ 194
Glad to hear you’re safe, Doc. I haven’t the faintest idea about Minnesota politics, though. Me? I live in lovely North Carolina, the state with both feet planted firmly in the 19th century. :(
The river is kept at least 9 feet deep for barge traffic, which goes up that high. The Minneapolis Fire Chief said tonight he expects to recover more bodies tomorrow.
sunny @ 107
and ralph is the answer?
Tex B (from ILL) @ 214
What a great idea
{{{{first responders}}}}
I wrote a letter to my rep just now. It wasn’t real nice. Her name is Kay.
yellowdog jim @ 222
Making a raspberry sound !
Shadowstalker @ 220
ding!
Tex B (from ILL) @ 213
(((((TexB))))))))
wangdangdoodle @ 227
She of the other initials B and H? feh
Shadowstalker @ 221
You’re absolutely right about the timing. I was online for Maryam’s visit, and was deeply influenced by what she said and how she said it. It did not surprise me (although it appeared to suprise many of the others here), but it makes a difference to say it to yourself inside your own head vs. hearing the person influenced by events say it to you, in words of one syllable, in simple declarative sentences.
things come undone @ 128
With the proper determination, and sans any politics, I would say within a day or two engineers will have a pretty good handle on what happened. But that’s not to say it will be made public in a day or two. Real world things considered, you may not hear the final story for years, what with legal considerations, liability issues, etc. etc. etc.
But from a technical standpoint, I’d venture to say that within one shift, 8 hrs. on site, at least one person will have a pretty accurate theory compiled to pursue proof. (That person, of course, won’t release at 8 hours)
EvilDrPuma @ 181
But I mean its just weird, isn’t it? No particular comment referenced in the post. Just a few hot button keywords. Its almost an acknowledgment of irreverence. Someone who feels the responsibility of creating new thread – oops they don’t have those do they… wonder what they would look like – trying to spin every radar blip as red meat for the increasingly hungry. Like tossing something out before local ample meat on the bone is noticed.
DocRoss @ 193
Welcome, and keep commenting! Another Minneapolitan here, I took the plunge last september after reading for months. Watch out, its addictive :-)
Glad to know there are so many firepups up here, we should have a picnic (can’t let the Texans get too far ahead of us, you betcha.)
Maybe not, but please take a look at their web site and tell me if you see the words “Social Justice” “Feminism” or “Impeachment Now..” anywhere near a Dem candidate. (except Kucinich, who I plan to vote for)
Gunga Djinn @ 233
So here’s a research project. Somewhere on the toobz there’s the right kind of engineer, who’s already studied the photos, accessed the govt files on inspections, etc., and come up with an hypothesis. How do we find that person & her/his blog?
LoudounLib @ 231
That be the one, yours and mine.
As moderator, I’ve been seeing testiness in the comments since back to when the Dem’s caved on the supplemental.
We have all been riding an emotional roller coaster that is driven by a mad king george – has a lot of people on edge to begin with and then, when a disaster like today’s hits, it tends to set a lot of folks off.
As was said so eloquently upthread, now is the time when we should be coming together supporting each other instead of bickering amongst ourselves.
mommybrain at 166 says-”The cell phone problem – is that unique to Minneapolis or is cell use always problematic in disasters? Is there anything that can be done to strengthen this weakness?”
no, it’s a weakness………and they can’t make money adding dishes that are only used when service is in high demand……so, will remain a weakness…….and will crash in an emergency…….
demi @ 193
Would that be Boulder Creek, Suzanne?
wangdangdoodle @ 238
oh no, she’s not mine, thank goddess — I’m in VA, land of Jim Webb! (oh, and Frank Wolf and John Warner…)
Technical specs of collapsed bridge
I have been over that bridge many times on my frequent forays from the Iowa backcountry to Minneapolis. After the shock and the sadness, there is this: The Republicans have been starving infrastructure, except for a few privileged bridges to nowhere in particular. Could there now be accountability? Nah…
We have a precarious bridge right in the middle of the little town we live in. It would cost well over $100,000 to repair and the only money available requires a 1 to 1 match, which is completely beyond the means of a town with fewer than 500 people. There is no fix, and nobody cares. Multiply by thousands, add Katrina and stir.
Our priorities are completely out of whack. What will it take to make even the Republicans care? A grid collapse? We were without power for five days last February because of an ice storm, along with thousands of other people. I got to think about what months without power might look like, and it wouldn’t be pretty. This is what you get from people who think government is bad.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 235
ooooooo, a challenge. hear that CTFPs?
LoudounLib @ 239
Stop it ! There you go again, bragging :)
SeamusD @ 240
Yes, it is. Overlooking Bear Creek.
sunny @ 107
If Gore had taken office, Bush wouldn’t have. Is there anything more that really needs to be said?
Suzanne @ 239
Amen. And I do not pray. Let’s criticize the pols but keep the community more supportive.
;-) Twain
Gunga Djinn @ 231
There have been two instances already of Pawlenty’s admin covering up reports (3M contamination in Woodbury, and work-related illness in miners in Iron Range, sorry don’t remember details at moment as i’m kinda rattled this evening.) So, If Pawlenty & Co. have anything to do with a report, i’m sure feet will be dragged, memories lost, papers misfiled, “i don’t recall…”
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 157
we are a minority.
back when we(our son) were in kindergarten (we are in 3rd grade now),
of the 20 some families represented by his classmates, “married couple” was the exception.
many different family styles at work.
love diversity.
all good families and sweet kids.
of my sibs i am the only one on our only (”first”) marriage.
but i’m old: 56
drive carefully
barbara @ 201
I don’t know what that means, so I guess not :)
As for MN politics, we’re the home of Hubert Humphrey, Walter Mondale, Paul Wellstone, and Jesse Ventura. One of these things is not like the other.
There has been a decided shift toward the FOX Newsicization of politics in the state as the suburbs have grown in population and political clout. Last election there was a bit of a leftward swing, but our pretty, Bush-lite governor won re-election against an establishment Dem. candidate. We can only hope to be rid of Sen. Norm Coleman next year. Go Al Franken!
sunny at 167 says-”Hi SunnyNobility, nice to meet you too. I hope and pray that we can all agree that the Dems as a party are very far from representing our progressive values. Even Sherrod Brown voted for the MCA, which enshrined torture into our national DNA, and gave a pass to shrub for having engaged in it in the past. Now, the Dems are going to do the same with FISA-revising it to suit the shrub and retroactively legalising violations of it. How can we continue to support a party which, at EVERY turn, dismisses our concerns and plays more to the Republican base than their own? And please don’t talk to me about investigations, for how are they doing any good if they continue to refuse to hold them accountable for perjury and ignoring subpoenas? These hearing are for one purpose-to keep the base from mutiny.
I say it’s time to abandon ship.”
i think you’re missing the point that a lot of us here are set on changing things from within…………we chose to create change, not abandon ship………
LoudounLib @ 242
(frappin menopause) Lucky you ;)
ok, I’ll say this and then I’m done.
I do not think it is bad that people become “testy.” I absolutely agree that a certain level of civility should be maintained — and usually IS maintained here thanks to the tireless efforts of the mods, Christy, etc — but….hello! Intelligent people disagree. And people who are human — as opposed to say, people whose articulated beliefs are purely dictated by political expediency — feel passionate about what they believe.
There are also those who — to quote The Who — can’t hear, because their ears are truly sealed.
Anyway — if this were a place where we were all sheep baaing in happy mindless harmony, I’d be, like, gone.
Suzanne @ 236
Right you are. Why you are (one of) the favorite Mod(s).
I apologize to all if my questions flared already tense nerves.
And, I didn’t mean to attack anyone in particular.
Really sorry. :(
wangdangdoodle @ 225
i know her.
you could post your letter at facebook.
Well, I think I will head off to bed. Sucking smoke all day (we are having a stage 1 air quality alert) has done wore me out. Oh, yeah, fire season is officially here (about 2 weeks early). Not too bad, but I sure wish the wind would blow the other way. I do not want to be reminded of what it was like to smoke 2-3 packs a day. Take care of each other and enjoy the snark.
Yes. Why didn’t Gore stand up and fight like a dog on behalf of the people who voted for him? Then Bush wouldn’t have taken office.
Please excuse my bad manners in not welcoming you earlier, DocRoss.
Welcome to the Lake. I wish it had been under pleasanter circumstances. It has been my experience that once de-lurked, it is mighty dayam hard to go back to just reading.
DocRoss @ 253
I have some idealized notion of MN from the erlier post war years. I can’t imagine how Franken couldn’t beat Coleman into a pulp, especially now in this toxic R environment. (Toxic R Syndrome?)
Suzanne @ 247
Beautiful country. I love redwood forests. My sister lived along Love Creek, many moons ago, just before the mudslides. You been there long?
g’night DrD, sleep well and sweet dreams
Seamus, almost 4 years and am unfortunately, having to sell my beloved little cottage by the creek in the redwoods – but I am looking forward to my move to Oregon – and high speed internet access.
wangdangdoodle @ 245
uffda! A challenge! You CTFPs are an inspiration, not another football team ;-)!
Good evening all. Such a sad evening, I’m upset for the families of the victims of that tragedy.
I used the word “testy” as a euphemism. Testy is fine, but some have gone well beyond. I ignore those commenters, as well as the trolls, but some get provoked which is when the downward spiral begins.
hi fini, I know, right? Just a terrible situation.
sunny @ 167
If you feel like it’s time to abandon ship, then by all means do so. We’ll miss you, but we’ll get the ship to where it needs to go without you.
yellowdog jim @ 258
Or I could post it right here…
Hello Kay,
I’ve been watching the news tonight about the tragedy in Minneapolis and I felt the need to ask how long you are going to continue to support George Bush’s foreign folly in Iraq (and plans for Iran) to the detriment of our infrastructure here at home. We do not yet know the cause of this recent tragedy, but what happened to the bridge on IH 35 in Minnesota could just have easily happened here due to the unseasonable rains in our area of late. Who knows what tragedies might befall us (you, me, your grandchildren) with the climate changes so obviously occurring of late. This ill begotten war is sapping our country’s treasure and reducing us to the status of a third world banana republic. It is time you put aside your loyalty to party and started thinking about doing your sworn duty to the people who elected you and the oath you took to defend this country and uphold its Constitution.
Respectfully,
wangdangdoodle
…hey, I said it wasn’t nice, perhaps even testy…
Goodnight, Doc. Sleep as smokeless as possible.
Suzanne @ 239
I suspect there are a lot of issues preying on our collective subconscious right now…an example would be the frightening similarity between this summer’s Dow and the summer of 1929. It just feels like the cliff King George is steering us toward is very close, and the bastard just snickers and keeps it floored.
I come here for the comfort of knowing that there are others of like mind, and despise when we busily snark at each other.
My thoughts tonight are with all the people I don’t know in Minneapolis, may we all get through this together.
oddmommy——-thanks, thought it was only me…………aggressive, and needy, each to their own……….
wangdangdoodle, great job!
FiniFiniTOOBZ! @ 267
I’ll second that emotion!!! Aloha Ya’ll!!! :-(
eCAHNomics @ 237
1. Photos alone won’t do it.
2. Inspection records could potentially be good evidence, but that’s where the politics enter in, especially if someone knows there were problems found.
3. If the contruction firm doing the re-hab work is first class, reputable (i.e. no bid rigging, kickbacks, etc.) they would have had engineer(s) on staff supervising the project. If that’s the case, someone may already know what happened.
4. It could be hard to find a real expert willing to leak what he/she knows at this point in time. Professional, ethical & legal obligations would say no comment.
not to discourage you, just saying.
dmac, I live with teens. I work with teens. I am very used to aggressive and needy. Also passive aggressive and needs. With a tiny bit of emo thrown in for good measure.
Hey all late-night hounds.
Saw on the news a couple of interesting points: The bridge was inspected for safety in 2005 AND 2006, don’t ask me why they did it in successive years, but it got a clean bill of health in terms of structural integrity. They were resurfacing the road, and replacing safety handrails and a bunch of other proverbial bells & whistles, and working on “joints.” I take this to mean expansion joints.
Just guessing here, but may have been a construction error. Much as our infrastructure is in horrific shape, this may end up not being an example of it. But of course, we’ll see.
An engineer friend mentioned these bridges are supposed to be segmented in such a way that a failure of one section wouldn’t (shouldn’t) drop other sections, especially opposite a main pylon. Appears to have happened tho.
Everyone okay?
And then what will you use as transportation. One of my favorite Qs to focus the mind is: What is the alternative?
The A is not a 3d party. We have to pressure the Ds to do the right thing. It’s the only way.
Will someone remind me I said this at some point in the future when I despair?
LoudounLib @ 275
Ya think!? I’m probably a little too tipsy to be emailing congresscritters tonight. I blame Beorge Gush.
Tex B (from ILL) @ 275
Hey, Betsy…some chocolate might help?
yeah.
wangdangdoodle @ 281
707! like I said several days ago…are we sisters?! ;-)
drmac-” think you’re missing the point that a lot of us here are set on changing things from within…………we chose to create change, not abandon ship………”
How’s that working out? No really, how has the Dem party, besides winning the midterms, made any concessions, despite the truly wonderful efforts of grassroots and netroots folks, toward their own estremely angry and frustrated base? Drastic times call for drastic measures, and the opposition party’s lack of any actual opposition, despite being in the majority, calls for a severe Come to Jesus wake up call for these oh-so-comfortable “who else are they going to vote for”? Boosh enablers.
demi @ 281
And why do you think I hand it out so liberally????
Tex B (from ILL) @ 285
When the going gets tough, I reach for my Ritter Sport dark chocolate with whole hazelnuts :-)
eCAHNomics @ 195
you have spoken for me too.
for those who were wondering about structural/engineering re 35W bridge, a local station has an engineer in a video interview, clip at right site of web site
Must wake up early tomorrow. Shutting the computer so I will be wide awake for loveblogging in the AM.
Night all!
Thanks, Sweetie.
Hey, did you get your Wheels pumped okay at the airport? I’ve been thinking of you.
Shadowstalker @ 220
I hadn’t realised it but, thinking back, I think you’re right. Her honest words caused a lot of discomfort. Join that with the frustration and sense of powerlessness at the inability of Congress to rein in Bush as he tramples over the Constitution and – voila! – tetchiness appears. I don’t think it will last though. This is just a lull while we recharge batteries and emerge reinvigorated for the fight we have to win.
Prospero -
What part of NC? I said something to tommy yum recently about a possible gettogether of pups from the Tar Heel state……maybe including SC & at least one from TN also interested.
What think you?
g’night Betsy, sleep well, sweet dreams, and rest up!
(waving g’nite to all sleep firepups) wishes for pain free and/or smoke free sleep
demi @ 289
Yes, wheels full of air. Ohare has great services for disabled passengers all around. :)
ecahn at 184 says-”Is it my imagination, or have commenters been more testy of late?”
no, it’s not your imagination, it has become a pissing contest…….and drama queens……..which is why i haven’t been around commenting a lot lately……
and it’s been a ‘agree with me or i’ll make you bleed’ thing, too……which disgusts me……
but not everyone is doing it, only a few, but it only takes a few…….one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch girl, to quote the jackson 5
Thanks Suzanne
Gunga Djinn @ 277
I’m looking for a geek with an ego, who wants the world to know what he knows before anyone else figures it out. Needle in a haystack, for sure. But isn’t that what the toobz is for?
omg dmac…dating myself here, but I remember that song ;-)
LoudounLib @ 283
Soul sistahs, fer sure. And given my family background, maybe really cousins.
puppethead @ 243
thanks, puppethead!!! looking at the pictures of the steel arch, there are any number of ways that bridge could have failed. the rust above the piers? very bad. also, the general lightness of the structual elements and high number of them does not inspire confidence.
Tex B (from ILL) @ 285
I take it that ya arrived safe and sound?!!! *g*
sunny @ 284
I felt the way you felt some 20 years ago when I changed my voter registration from Democratic to Green. 20 years later, tired of being completely on the outside looking in, and without a single solitary electoral victory to show for it, I changed my registration last month back to Democratic. At some point, one has to be practical. Last month was that time for me. Now when I pressure my congress critters, they at least know that I am in their party, if they care to check.
night-night, TexB, sleep well!
wangdangdoodle @ 300
We must discuss sometime!
Tex B (from ILL) @ 198
… are you sure it’s not just Loo Hoo snoring ?!!
… tee hee …
yellowdog jim @ 252
My husband and I are coming up on our ’sweet 16′. ‘Family values’ indeed. Of my siblings, the only divorcé is my brother – the right-wing, born-again Catholic, choose-lifer, who is constantly railing about how awful society is, and chastised my sister for watching ‘Desperate Housewives’. He believes corporations are more responsible than individuals, and he thinks that what’s wrong with society is that no one takes ‘personal responsibility’ for anything. Sadly, he is now divorced from the emotionally-stunted ‘nice Catholic girl’ who was looking for a meal ticket and human ATM – a disaster that my sister and I could see coming from miles away.
Has anyone counted the average marriages per candidate of the major Presidential hopefuls from both sides? I’d be curious to see how that averaged out.
sunny @ 284
I’ve been involved in political activism since I was 12. In those 24 years I have seen the Dems go from a sclerotic and lethargic entrenched Establishment organization to wandering in the conservative wilderness through the Clinton years and into the 21st century. The netroots movement has been the most significant change agent in all those years that I have been involved.
The DLC/Clinton folks took over a decade to come to power. The netroots are powerful in less than 3 election cycles. If you cant remain patient and active in the new revolution in progress, by all means jump ship. Now is not a time for nervousness. Unity of purpose is what is needed. And patience. 2008 is going to be a huge change.
Suzanne @ 294
Nighty, night & thanks for all you’ve done.
Late Late Nite en francais is up
fresh threadiness upstairs
wangdangdoodle @ 270
Let’s get testy at Lamar’s office over on Bee Caves Rd (2244) in the very near future. I need moral support (not to mention adult supervision). It may not help but if we can’t get to DC at least we can tell these folks getting on our case we are doing something.
finifinito @ 308
.
Well put.
I’ve always been pragmatic, not theoretical. When it comes to U.S. politics, I’ve looked for what is actually occurring that could make a difference. Netroots are it. Nothing else around. So either stick here or flush yourself down the cr*pper.
Just a thought. No party deserves eternal sinecure as a right. A party serves at the
pleasure (or risks the disgust)of the people.
Methinks we could use a bit more of the joyful
aspect, nowadays.
LoudounLib @ 305
facebook tomorrow. Right now I can’t believe it’s already midnight and I must skedaddle before I turn into a pumpkin.
Sweet dreams everyone, good to hear from you AuntB, thanks Suzanne for keeping it civil (even though I don’t feel that way tonight), Oh, and if anyone didn’t see last night… got an email from AK, aka al, aka the spook and he’ll be back around soon, he had to take some time off ot make a livin’ and he says to tell everyone thanks for thinking of me, er, uh, him.
Petrocelli @ 306
That Is Funny.
I accompanied my hub on a business trip to Las Vegas, with my son. We witnessed a most amazing thunderstorm through the desert on our way to San Diego. Thought of Loo Hoo. Nothing like rain and thunder in the beauty of the desert at night, with a afterfull moon. :)
eCAHNomics @ 298
Geeks with egos? In the toobz? That’s not a needle in a haystack, that’s THE INTERNET.
:)
sunny @ 234
okay.
look,
the Greens look all yummy and fun.
they are a little to the right for me,
but i’m easy.
BUT
they are not going to defeat republicans.
republicans are the enemy.
and Corporatism is the enemy.
eviscerating everything democratic
will not do the job.
The Democratic Party is our means for change.
ralph … ?
no.
helloooo….join us upstairs ;-)
nonplussed @ 312
You talkin’ Sept. 15? ANSWER is having a Washington march and you just know Austin will be having one too!! I’ve been to just about every peace action here, including Crawford before the war started. And I’ll be in the streets September 15, rain or shine or hail or tornadoes or whatever the Texas weather throws at us!
Waccamaw @ 292
I live in a little town just east of Raleigh. I’d love to get together with some others from the area. Maybe someplace central to all of us. Where are you?
You can email me at ncprospero@earthlink.net
My feet, baby. Economical and ecologically friendly. Also useful for voting Green.
Dems regularly side with the corporations on Pharm issues, farm issues, Banking, Insurance, Oil etc. etc.
There will be more wars soon, and more Dems voting for wars. Will that make you happy? Is that what it will take to convince you all to abandon a party that has already abandoned you?
Yes, but the Dems are not fighting the war.
Kites with long strings fly very high.
Sometimes, it is hard to reel them in.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 235
If you Minneapolitans will allow a St Paulite to the picnic ;) count me in!
nonplussed @ 312
i like the way y’all talk.
Twain @ 228
tee hee.
i am THAT mature.
gbear @ 325
sure thing! you on facebook?
I don’t have the time to read through 300 comments, so my apologies if this has been covered:
I believe the repair work for the bridge deck is described in this document. I see nothing in there that would indicate alterations to the steel structure under the deck, which is what collapsed.
Using a jackhammer on a structure of this size is like tickling it with a feather.
Piledriving has been mentioned, but I saw no cranes or barges in the photos/videos.
It’s hard for engineers not to speculate on the cause, but it’s far too early to know anything unless you have some direct and intimate knowledge of the bridge’s condition.
I’m going to bed now, hoping that the casualty counts are the same when I get up tomorrow morning.
thanks texb at 275-you crack me up
sunny @ 323
we are fighting the war.
it is a counterinsurgency.
we are taking over the reins.
we are the netroots.
IF ralph had joined us in 2000, he would have been believable.
There’s being a principled renegade;
then there’s being a damn fool.
ralph made his choice.
gore choices weren’t that bad.
newdealfarmgrrrlll @ 328
‘fraid not. maybe I should do that.
gbear @ 332
it’s pretty painless…click on the little blue f next to my name & it’ll take you over to facebook, there’s even a late nite subgroup 8-)
Texb~maybe they think DFH only need 1 bar?
We passed under it several times every day. My wife and daughter drove under that bridge 20 minutes before it collapsed. It is heartbreaking to see the people who were unfortunate enough to be caught on the bridge at that moment.
This is not an act of God or Nature. It is a man made disaster. Just like in New Orleans, it is a failure of infrastructure. Whatever happened, this bridge was on the national list of dangerously weak bridges and slated to be replaced. It was ranked 4 out of 10. Zero being a failed structure.
Our Governor, Tim Pawlenty and his Republican cronies in the Tax Payers League have left our infrastructure in tatters. If this is due to criminal negligence, there should be hell to pay here in Minnesota.
sunny @ 323
Hi there. Did you have something pertaining to this thread to post? Because so far I count around 10 posts from you that don’t actually have anything to do with the topic.
Attn: Senator Stevens
Come get your bridge to nowhere.
I live in Saint Paul, not far from where the collapse took place. And I first heard about this chatting on now live and googled it only to find news posted from routers on a Swiss site. Way to go US media for being sooo on top of this.
But there has been a lot of construction on I-35 as a result of something, but that something needs a roll call.
So anyone in any state with I-35 running through it, has there been major construction going on?
As it stands now I think this was a catastrophic blunder in regards to logistics and stresses related to more traffic on one bridge.
But it will be interesting on who points the fingers where.
By the way the mayor of Minneapolis is a democrat. So you can all figure where the republicans will point.
Anyway, post here about construction along I-35 or hit up my blog.
Thanks
-=topper=-
In some hideous inversion of Gandhi’s “Be the change you want to see,” has America become the disaster movie it always wanted to see?
I live in Minneapolis, my city of ruins. Fingers will be pointing, that’s for sure, but no one will point a finger at the mayor as this has nothing at all to do with him. I-35 is a federal highway. The bridge got middling ratings from federal inspectors a few years ago, I believe a 4-5 on a 1-9 scale. Not bad enough to close it, but indicating it needed structural work. (And the work being done was on the decking, not the structure.) It’s tempting to point the finger at our Shrub wannabee veto-happy governor, who steadfastly clings to his no-taxes pledge (though institutes “fees” instead) as the state collapses into mediocrity like this bridge, but this bridge wasn’t his responsibility either — though he just got lucky that it wasn’t.
I point my finger at the no-tax, shrink-the-government attitude of the govenor and Busco and far too many Americans these days. They don’t want to pay a dime to improve education or healthcare for kids, or help rebuild New Orleans after Katrina (all those lazy poor folks should get off their beignet butts and get to work) until their own ox gets gored. “Shit — I coulda been on that bridge, why didn’t somebody do something?” Terrorists can just sit back and watch us implode from the inside. Nice work, Bushco.
Here is what Dr. Deborah Frisch is saying at “harbaughboyz.blogspot.com”
“There are two main hypotheses about the cause of yesterday’s bridge collapse in Minneapolis – terrorism or accident. There are two types of terrorists – domestic (Tim McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski) and imported (9/11 hombres). Some domestic terrorists are disenfranchised Republicans (McVeigh) and others are disenfranchised Democrats (Kaczynski).
So there are four main hypotheses:
a. accident
b. foreign terrrorist
c. domestic rightwing terrorist
d. domestic leftwing terrorist
I’m almost 100% sure it was an intentional act of sabotage and not an accident and it makes me rethink my assumption that the collapse in Berkeley a few months ago was an accident.
So it’s b, c or d and given that both locations are pretty liberal, I’d say we’re looking at a type d terrorist attack.”
Who has the time to worry about replacing a damn old bridge that rates a whopping 50 on a scale of 1-120 for stability(’bridges just don’t collapse’) and was deamed needing replacement in 2005. That money was needed in more valuable places, like corporate pockets.
And I do wonder who’s idea to allow bigger and heavier(way over the weight limit) trucks to not just crawl along at the speed limit across a but to run at top speeds across flimsey structures such as this one for the sake of more money in the pocket. Surely not the companies that own these trucks or the law enforcement departments that are paid to look the other way at the NASTRUCK races happening in this country every hour of every day.
It must rest on the shoulders of the middle classes people in this country. After all our government with the blessings of the corporations are quickly coming around to the ‘fact’ that the middle class are the true terrorists in the world.
Sleep well.
Hey all,
I forwarded a report last night of the engineers saying it had been cleared for safety the last two years in a row. Twelve hours later they’re talking about a history of deficiencies. (sigh) Whatever happened to being forthright? (purely rhetorical question)
Something caught my eye in the CNN.com image gallery. Photo #8 shows a considerable cluster of rust at one of the plated joiner sections that failed, while the rest of the girders show a good amount of green anti-rust primercoat. I couldn’t possibly say either way whether this was cause or effect, just looks a little curious.
BigMitch @ 8
Is there a specific “Bridge not found” error message?
argosfalcon @ 121
It’s usually congressional leaders who are inspired to spend federal dollars locally and any Dem president would go along with that kind of legislation.
The biggest differences are when you have a Repub Congress and they spend money on ‘a bridge to nowhere’, rather than on real bridges.
yellowdog jim @ 124
Being a well-trained soldier he’s actively hiding from US Marshals.
Amazing, eh?
MarkH @ 346
No problem, just dangle a cushy, lucrative ‘revolving door’ military contractor job in the air and wait 2 1/2 minutes. Works with the Air Force every time.
eCAHNomics @ 156
Now now. Be nice. He might be one of those few men of character and, unlike the “I don’t recall.” types, may have gone to the committee through a back door or maybe he knew he’d done a terrible thing and just hung himself. Let’s wait and see a bit more before jumping to conclusions.
Japandrew @ 339
I hope not and I don’t think it is.
In the 1980s when our economy was seriously depressed there were a lot of depressed people too. The music and movies and politics reflected that.
Today, after the Clinton era of peace and prosperity and post-Soviet-relief, the people want to be relaxed and just live well. But, we’re all on this bus being driven by a bunch of Crazies and we can’t get them to let go of the controls.
So, no, I don’t think it’s a reflection of the people. Today’s story is just normal people whose lives are upturned by some crazy event.