Donald Rumsfeld is evidently refusing to testify before Henry Waxman’s committee regarding the death of Pat Tillman. This comes on the heels of Fred Fielding refusing to release documents to the committee regarding Tillman’s death, citing “executive privilege:”
“There is no Executive Privilege claim that holds any water when the matter is the death of an American soldier – especially one who had been used by the Administration as a poster for the war,” said Jon Soltz, an Iraq War veteran who heads the group, in a statement sent to RAW STORY. “By refusing to release every pertinent document, the White House is fostering a climate of distrust among those in the military, hurting efforts to recruit new soldiers, insulting the memory of Pat Tillman, and causing undue pain to his family. Unless the President has something to hide, he should release all the documents requested by Republicans and Democrats on the Committee.”
As Jill recently mused, “Executive privilege now is defined as ‘Anything that would get us into trouble if released.’”
Some enterprising sportscasters really need to pick this story up. It deserves to be carried far and wide to a lot of people who just aren’t going to be exposed to it under other circumstances.
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uno?
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TILLMAN
You gotta be quick around here.
“Some enterprising sportscasters” that would be Keith Olbermann. He will be on this like ugly on an ape.
Larry King on Darth not recalling!
So we’ve got a new rule- no current or ex member of an administration need EVER testify to congress if they don’t want to… NEAT!
I just hope KO doesn’t blow a gasket, because if I am even a little correct, his blood will be boiling!
the hits just seem to keep piling up, don’t they? i’m surprised we haven’t reached a boiling point long ago…how much longer can the media spin and softpedal all this crap before we collectively say ENOUGH!?
How proud the NFL must be for being a recruiting/propaganda tool for the US military, when one of their star players was likely executed on the battlefield under orders from the government. But rah rah, let the flag wave and the jets fly. I guess NFL fans aren’t very introspective.
(Okay, maybe a bit of hyperbole, but what is Bush hiding?)
What part of telling the truth about the death of an American soldier do George W. Bush and Rumsfeld object to?
-GSD
Under what possible theory could documents related to the death of a feild soldier be considered to be covered by Executive Privledge?
I’m sorry, I have litgated privledge issues on both sides of the issue and I cannot think of any way–Was Bush leading the forensic team? Was he doing the autopsy?
This is crazy.
Did Feilding send a letter? Have we got the letter on the web?
What a coward Rumsfeld is.
It’s embarassing if Tillman was deliberately murdered by his comrades- it’s DEVASTATING if the murder was encouraged by officers….
Wait and see.
“Irak…so fucking illegal….”
What’s the matters Dumbsfeld you didn’t dig dissent from Tillman?
rwcole @ 7
…cept unsolicited testimony… Darth today on Gonzo:
“I’m a big fan of Al’s,” Cheney said in the radio interview. “I think Al has done a good job under difficult circumstances. The debate between he and the Senate is something they’re going to have to resolve. But I think he has testified truthfully. I think the key is whether or not he has the confidence of the president, and he clearly does”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..eheadlines
First question for every congresscritter sighted in the home district —
WTF are you doing here? Get back to work.
rwcole @ 14
And even more devastating if the White House helped to cover it up.
rwcole @ 7
Sen. Clinton is gonna get a free ride. Christ she can bring Webb Hubbel back into Justice and have him bring in Susan McDougal and Paul Begala too.
-GSD
All of these privelege claims need to be taken to court- what’s the procedure?
Blub @ 16
(roughly how it went down)
Schumer: who sent you to Ashcroft’s hospital room?
Abu: I was there on behalf of the president.
Schumer: Did the vice-president send you?
Abu: I was there on behalf of the president.
Etc.
puppethead @ 10
looseheadprop @ 12
Nitpick Alert: There is no “D” in privilege
In other words, anything.
This sure is a privileged group. You’d think they were royalty. They do, it seems.
We need a Daniel Ellsberg or a John Dean. Or a Wyatt Earp, or a Gary Cooper, or a Clint Eastwood. Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart can’t do it all.
I sent this e-mail to Hugh Hugenips blogger buddy after reading the repellant post attacking the left for not being on board with the Great and Glorious Surge:
Greetings,
I thought that I was a great comedy writer but this line of yours is priceless.
“If you’ve studied the moonbats in their native habitats as I have the past several years, this comes as no surprise. After all, what is the chickenhawk meme but an attempt to win an argument by attacking your opponent rather than engaging his ideas?”
I mean afterall what is the moonbat meme but an attempt to win an argument by attacking your opponant rather than engaging his ideas?
Funny stuff.
-GSD
I’ve also heard Jim Rome, on his late night ESPN radio show, strongly denounce the Bush administration’s actions with regard to Pat Tillman. If anyone can get this story to him, I bet he would find it of interest. You can also call into his show and mention it.
Those who have nothing to hide, give testimony.
brendan @ 22
Assassination authorization?
rwcole @ 20
The House VCounsel’s Office canstart a civil case in federal court.
Alternatively, we have our faous inherent contempt procedures, as long as the House votes for civil contempt which still means jail)they are golden.
The thing is, contempt for not testifying works well b/c it is the witness you are holding in jail. Contempt for not turning over the documents kinda sucks b/c the likely contemnor is a lower level “custodian of records”
I don’t see that Rumsfeld has been subpoenad yet. The link says he was invited or asked to testify & refused.
rwcole @ 20
Two routes: one is a contempt citation. The committee votes on it, then the entire house votes on it. If it is issued, it is sent to the U.S. Attorney in D.C. and he is directed to present it to the grand jury for prosecution. But will he? Ummm, don’t bet on it. He is a “loyal bushy.”
Second route: inehrent contempt. Not used for 70 years, but still good law. Basically, the Sergeant at Arms is directed to arrest the recalcitrant witness. He is held in custody until he agrees to testify, or, he goes to court and gets an order squashing the subpoena. The burden is on him to prove the validity of the claim of privilege.
Obviously, the second route is much more confrontational. But at what point does Congress say, “Enough!”
Brisingamen @ 23
I am a well known non-speller. I apologize.
Jean2k @ 24
Wyatt Earp: A nice Jewish boy from Alaska. We need more of them.
pet wrecker @ 15
By now everyone knows Tillman was a fan of Noam Chomsky. Interestingly, Chomsky spoke at West Point in April 2006 in opposition to the Iraq war. Compare that with the ban on Chomsky in our major media.
BigMitch @ 31
oops. Inehrent = inherent. (Inerrancy is something else. Does not apply to Bush admin. except in Biblical interpretation.) All masculine pronouns embrace the feminine equivalents.
Downpuppy @ 30
I don’t recall there being a subpoena. So, they next step would be to issue one. If he doesn’t show then, contept is available.
In the short term, they can still bring a civil action on the Executive Privlege claim–but again, I think the may have to have an outstanding supoena duces tecum in order to do that
looseheadprop, no apology needed! Having been a secretary and office proof-reader most of my life, these things tend to jump out at me.
All these invocations of “executive privilege” out of a need to cover up ‘candid’ advice…. You know, the picture you get is that a typical day in a Bush Cabinet or Presidential Advisor office consist of a relentless stream of people phoning or dropping by to offer immoral, lawbreaking, painfully cynical, ridiculous, absurd, or intensely stupid and embarrassing ideas. Which an Administration that is restoring honor and integrity to the White House is manifestly too moral to have happen.
Oh, wait….
Woodhall Hollow @ 6
That’s a great video at Think Progress. To borrow from LBJ, if Cheney has lost Larry King, he’s lost the nation.
Get Your Pat Tillman “Proud to Die For Your Shitty Gas Mileage” SUV gas tank cards here!
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..-suvs.html
I would remind my fellow-pups that this administration seems to be trying to provoke a battle over executive privilege. They think they can win, and with Roberts back on the job, who’s to say they are wrong?
Brisingamen @ 23
Either there should be a d in privilege, or there should not be one in knowledge. See why teaching all those second language kids is a trick? And why they fail under NCLB? No testing the content of what was said, just the spelling.
Jillian @ 38
They cannot claim executive privilege for what goes on in any cabinet office, outside of earshot of the President. Anything that is internal DoD is subject to congressional oversight. Rummy is just trying to buy time
to get his story togetherto tighten up the cover-up.What candid “advice” did Shrub need about the investigation into the death of pat Tillman?
What “advice” did he need to help him make a decision about the death of Pat Tillman?
What “decision” could he have possibly (legally) made about the death of Pat Tillman?
To quote TRex
“what fuckery is this?”
test from iphone
Gonzo:
Latest…spin, spin, spin…
Expecting letter later today suitable for public release clarifying why Mueller and Gonzo were talking about the same thing…..
May..be.
Bush administration mind meld: ” He’s dead. Screw him and the family he rode in on.”
egregious @ 45
somebody got a nifty birthday gifty!
OT but wanted to update, just spoke to Specter’s office, still no word on “The Letter”. Asked staff to encourage Haggis to join the Dems & put an end to this disgrace.
Here’s a link to a collection of Jim Rome’s extensive past coverage of the Pat Tillman story on ESPN.
http://www.jimrome.com/home/se…..xt=tillman
There appear to be some audio links available. Rome’s apparently done a bunch of interviews. He is definitely on top of this story.
Maybe FDL can extend an invitation to have Jim Rome come in for a discussion about this?
Jim Rome’s coverage includes a chat with Tillman’s college coach Bruce Snyder who talks about how frustrated Tillman would have been with how his death was handled.
And heres an example of Rome’s opinion of how Tillman’s family has been treated by the government.
egregious @ 45
(waving) can you see us all on that thing?
egregious @ 45
Birthday present?
So how is cheney’s “I have no recollection” if he sent alberto & rummy refusing to testify about Tillman going to play in wingnut land?
BigMitch @ 31
Perhaps here? (via Truthout): Congress, Bush and the Real Constitutional Crisis
eg @ 45
Hi! and hi to your iphone, too!
Woodhall Hollow @ 43
Let’s be careful in our use of language. When you say, “They cannot claim executive privilege for what goes on in any cabinet office, outside of earshot of the President” you mean to say that such a claim would be devoid of merit. They have already made several such claims, and in part, such claims rest on a “unitary executive” theory. Sure, the claim is bullshit, but so is the claim that Bush won the 2000 election. How did that turn out in court?
King on cnn with wolfie.
LooHoo, English is full of traps, but IIRC “privilege” is Old French (privi = private, lege = law) by way of Latin (privilegium).
NY Times: Ex-general censured in Tillman case.
Subpoena the bastard, and make him sing. Or plead the 5th, if he dares.
nomolos @ 52
Showoff! ;) Happy Birthday, egregious! Did Scarecrow get one too?
egregious @ 45
Hello, and happy special day!
scarlet p. @ 40
another good one scarlet, but then you never disappoint
Hi Everybody,
Here is the ESPN four part series on Pat Tillman’s death.
It contains interviews, audio, pictures and a timeline.
Woodhall Hollow @ 59
Hey he is going to lose a star that is surely punishment enough
Woodhall Hollow @ 43
I thought they’ve already claimed executive privilege over RNC correspondence… using “unitary executive” theory to claim privilege over the entire exec branch is probably just around the corner :P
Brisingamen @ 58
See, if it were priviledge, it would mean sitting on the edge of the toilet seat.
Happy Birthday egregious!
Bush, Rumsfeld, Gonzo, Darth, et. al.
“The Unitary Expletive.”
Cheney – I don’t recall..I don’t recall giving an order to that effect. I was involved, of course, because I was a big advocate of the terrorist surveillance program.
Brendan @ 34
Chomsky probably would have said to Tillman, Iraq is a clusterfuck all around, but all of us working together can make policy change happen, so keep your head up, kid.
Cut to Dumbsfeld wringing his hands in horror.
BigMitch @ 68
Oh, I don’t know, why limit the expletives to just one?
BigMitch @ 56
Not too well, I’ll admit. But Kennedy is still a swing vote, and there have got to be some very conservative judges in some of the lower courts who would here this first who would be very nervous about granting this kind of sweeping privilege to a Dem admin. I’m thinking of people like Bruce Fein, who do exist and are in the judiciary. Hell, a gooper panel even ruled against Libby recently. I’d say that the more the Bush Junta overreaches in this arena, the higher the likelihood that they eventually get shot down in the courts.
barbara @ 66
I always had trouble remembering how to spell this. No longer.
Blub @ 65
Why do I always think that it is urinary executive? Kinda like p**s on you
BigMitch @ 56
The claim relates to EOP-Pentagon correspondence: http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0713.html
Larry King’s calling bullshit on Darth Cheney? Whoa.
Re: sportscasters talking about this story. Dan Patrick has interviewed Mrs. Tillman (Pat’s mom) a couple of times already on his radio show and has received quite a bit of heat from some of his listeners. I agree it is a great way to get the message out.
Re: test from iPhone @ 45. OK, that was just a blatent attempt to make the readership here envious. It ain’t working. OK – it IS working, but I’m going to pretend it ain’t.
Woodhall Hollow @ 59
Aside from his decision to censure Kensinger, Geren said that he was accepting recommendations by Gen. William Wallace, who conducted the investigation, for nine other officers.
Waxman needs testimony from all of them, along with the enlisted men on the scene.
Blub @ 65
Different technicality–since those emails involve Bush’s personal WH advisers. Making this sort of claim in a federal dept which is subject to constitutional oversight is a whole other matter.
This is a follow up interview with Bryan O’Neal, the nineteen year old Ranger who was with Pat Tillman when he died.
BigMitch @ 33
Wyatt Earp: A nice Jewish boy from Alaska. We need more of them.
From wikipedia:
I’ll take anybody willing to stand up to these bastards, even if only in movies. Bullies don’t consider relenting until they have been punched in the mouth.
Why did Cheney agree to do this interview to be aired today??? Somethin’s up. I’ll bet they think the hearings are done….interesting timing.
Frank Probst @ 76
Boy, when you lose Larry King…
strangely, Wonkette has a good elevator summary of Tillman revelations to date.
http://wonkette.com/politics/d…..284472.php ..wouldn’t think it would be their thing…
barbara @ 66
7O7!
You do know that in the Middle Ages often the privy would be in an area of a tower that hung over the moat of the castle…
Which makes your description (privy/ledge) distressingly accurate if not authentic!
Larry King: “Did you send Gonzales to see Ashcroft at the hospital.”
DarkLord Cheney: “I don’t recall.”
Larry: “That would be something you would recall.”
DarkLord: “I think that I would.”
Everyone who recalls if they did or did not, send Gonzo, raise your hand. I myself do recall, that I did not.
barbara @ 66
See! see! I did spell it correctly! *g*
Woodhall Hollow @ 72
Whitehouse said let’s take it to court. If we don’t like the result, we’ll change the law and remedy it.
Will he stay or will he go???
Brisingamen @ 85
Not even remotely interesting
Woodhall Hollow @ 18
Maybe the White House ordered Tillman’s execution.
What is President Bush hiding?
What is President Bush hiding today?
Brisingamen @ 85
Before the cry for tin foil goes out, I’m with Frank33. Clearly, this White House is capable of murder for political gain. It’s a demonstrable fact.
Should I take it that if someone would actually lower themselves to vote for Kerry, and they are in the military, that it is OK to shoot them (either by *unlawful* command of superiors and/or by salutary neglect) ?
Is liberalism covered by “don’t ask don’t tell” ?
Sounds like a great recruiting tool to me – *NOT*
Frank33 @ 91
To even think such a thing, you would have to believe that Bush had a history of executing people.
Donald Rumsfeld’s a gutless coward.
Testing from airport hotel.
Frank33 @ 91
The more the shit is uncovered in this WH, the more inoculated Hillary is from Swift Boat attacks. I am not a big Hillary fan, but I do enjoy the poetic justice of it all. It would be fun to do a poll in about a year, to find out how many wingnut blogs can recall the name, “Vince Foster.”
LS @ 96
executive privilege
Woodhall Hollow @ 18
Perhaps the Decider decided Tillman was more useful dead. Bush seems to revel in deaths he’s had a hand in. It’s as good as wearing a flightsuit.
They’ve got the letter.
And even more devastating if the
White HouseBush Gang helped to cover it up.Maybe the
White HouseBush Gang ordered Tillman’s execution.Fixed.
Woodhall Hollow @ 79
BUUUUUT Executive Privilege does not apply to all Potus related communication. it only relates to information or advise given to the President to help him make a decision. It is really much more narrow than the public seems to think it is if you read Us v. Nixon
So I say again: What advice did Shrub need about the death of Pat Tillman? None
What decision di he have to make about the death of Pat Tillman? none–the guy was dead.
If it involved a decision to cover up the true circumstantes of the death of Pat Tillman, it’s not covered by Executive Privilege b/c tha Supreme Court has ruled that EP cannot be apply to evidence of a crime.
ccmask @ 98
are you there yet?
Loo Hoo. @ 42
The Tough Coughs as he Ploughs the Dough – a book about Theodor “Dr Seuss” Geisel.
LS @ 102
How do we know?
LS @ 96
Maybe that’s why they call it “executive” privilege?
Oh Ghods — I saw an interview (last week?) that said something about “fragging” WRT Tillman, and I thought that was reaching. Now I’m not so sure.
I was under the impression that Tillman was popular with his men — so if it was a fragging, who pulled the trigger?
LS @ 102
and…
If you yell fire in a crowded building and people die, are you responsible of murder? Is it the same if you yell WMD and go to war and people die, are you responsible of murder?
My laptop’s hard drive imploded this morning. I got the Gray Screen of Death.
Fie, fie upon me.
*hangs head and weeps*
I think that it’s very important to bear in mind who is blocking this investigation. It isn’t Bush, it’s Cheney. He’s the one who’s inking the water with this Executive Privilege smoke screen.
ccmask @ 98
Are you in Chitown?
LS @ 102
All is well.
Elliott @ 105
No, I’m in Orlando. I fly out early in the Am.
TRex @ 112
oh NO!
TRex @ 112
pull over buddy – mixed metaphor police. gonna have to cite you.
(sorry about the ‘pooter)
This one’s all Cheney, I swear. It’s a feeling I have in Mike Chertoff’s gut.
Trex- I’ll share mine with you if you want.
ccmask @ 115
travel safely!
and as my father used to say, if you can’t be good, be careful.
nomolos @ 107
Malveaux is reading from it on CNN. Specter coming up to discuss it.
Same old spin. There is one program. They were speaking about a very narrow aspect. They were speaking about the TSP….the rest is classified and cannot be discussed in public.
Lindsay Graham – Special Prosecutor not warranted. Gonzo damaged himself. Up to W to ask him to leave.
executive privilege has almost always been used to prevent information that they don’t want to be released due to harm, and not just these crooks. congress wouldn’t really be asking if there wasn’t so much overt criminal activity.
you know, it is getting to the point where the nebulous crimes surrounding executive privilege no longer matter when you have obstruction of justice, bribery, false prosecution, perjury by everyone that came to testify, and on, and on. there are so many real and understandable crimes that mr and mrs john q public from damn near anytown usa can understand clearly and will not require their to be a fox nudes interpreter telling them what to hear.
it is long past the point of sanity or logic, it is but a temporal hardship that is defeating democracy. it is the handful of those in the congress that are trying to get the information out, that we must support. some we have lost, they have given in and now are protecting themselves from too much sunshine.
But to you those few, thanks for your concern and actions on behalf of Democracy, that glorious experiment so close to it’s end.
Henry Waxman, Russ Feingold, Ron Wyden, Patrick Leahy, Peter DeFazio, Dennis Kucinich, and plenty more that I would love to have an agreed to list that we can use to thank them. these are our only chances for heroes. funny how not a damn one of them want any credit for their actions? for them it is a service to their country.
there are few left that care enough to work for us instead of taking bribes to be elected. and if we are kind, would we say about 80% of our government is corrupt?
Tangential:
Anyone know about the incident with Gonzo & Chimp back in TX where Gonzo asked a judge to let Bush off a jury? What was this about?
TRex @ 118
I read about it in Michael Crichton’s new sequel: “The Abdominal Strain”
So what’s the freaking bombshell. More like eggshell.
Elliott @ 120
Thanks Elliott. I’m going to stay in China Town for 1 night and then to the convention center until Sunday. I live too far away from the airport so I decided to drive here today.
We are compelled to believe that Mr. Rumsfeld still has much input into the Veep’s office. Aren’t Don and Dick pretty much joined at the hip?
retirin’ in five @ 94
What is so weird about this, is the speed of the cover up. It seems within minutes, Tillman’s comrades were intimidated. A false report and false Medal award for a Silver Star, was arranged, within hours. For months the truth was suppressed. The first investigator publicly attacked Tillman’s mother-very Rovian. The details of the actual fratricide are still not known.
realworld @ 123
I believe that was about his DUI and having to disclose that on the jury questionnaire
Can somebody please explain to me how admin officials can continue to commit perjury, ignore subpoenas, and make spurious exec. priv. claims day after day after day, and Dems never.do.anything.about.it? Oh sure, noises are made about contempt citations, censure, impeaching (only)Abu,SP’s, on and on ad nauseum but nothing comes of it. Nothing.comes.of.it. Are we tired yet of this non-action? What are Dems trying to do, keep the base mollified while allowing the law-breaking to go on unabated? Seems that way to me.
I think the Dems should just go for broke. At least if they try and fail and the Bushies are enshrined once
and for all as a dictatorship, at least we will have a clear purpose from there on out.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 127
Big Love estates side by side in Mt. Misery?
realworld @ 123
if I recall correctly, the shrub was running for governer and was called to jury duty… one of the questions he had to answer was, “have you ever been convicted of drunk driving”…. which, of course, he didn’t want to answer. Gonzo jumped thru a thousand hoops to get him out of jury duty, thus, saving his run for governor.
TRex @ 112
Was Oscar nearby?
realworld @ 123
When Shrub was governor he got called for jury duty. Gonzo went to the judge and got shrub “excused on the unliekly theory thtat shrub “might” get picked for a crimainal case, that the jury “might ” vote to convict, that the felon”might” then apply for clemency and then shrub “might” have to decide whether to pardon someone he had already voted to convict.
The real reason was that the jury questionaire asks if the juror has ever been convicted of a crime and Shrub would have been forced to check “yes” and it would have knocked him out of the presidential race.
retirin’ in five @ 94
If you are referring to the death of so many (too many) Iraqis, I have to quibble. They do not regard them as human beings. They are abstractions, and non-Christian ones at that. Could they send out a CIA guy to do a wet job on a political opponent? I just don’t know. I am reading a book by Richard Clarke, Against All Enemies which begins with a retelling of the events of 9-11. This is from the scene where Bush returns to the White HOuse and starts talking about our counter-atack:
With the entire administration composed of criminals and criminal minds, they have no ability to stop themselves. It’s like asking Ted Bundy to stop raping, torturing and murdering girls. He just couldn’t stop. He got a giant thrill out of it. The entire Bush administration attracted like minds to themselves. They love having the power to order wars, killings and executions.
I can just hear GW saying, “Please don’t kill me,” in his Fly imitation voice. It is amazing that We the People continue to allow him and his criminal gang to continue in power. We talk, there are hundreds of hearings and congressional investigations and still no action. Why does it continue when a stained blue dress brought down the Democratic Party and put the NeoCons in political office? It’s not that they gotin power that is so bad. It’s that it continues after nearly seven years.
This is like watching adults repeatedly molesting small children and wagging your finger at them while allowing them to go on and on and on.
realworld @ 123
Protecting Bush from having to reveal his DUI conviction.
punaise @ 117
polixed metaphor mice?
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Florida’s optical scan voting machines are still flawed, despite efforts to fix them, and they could allow poll workers to tamper with the election results, according to a government-ordered study obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press.
Browning said the memory cards are locked in machines and only a few people have access to them in a setting where others wouldn’t see them unscrewing machines, breaking seals and switching cards.
“It is not where you just walk up to a machine and pop out a card,” he said.
It’s great. We have all these Nixon-Ford dinosaurs, Cheney, Rummy, Kissinger and others helping to run the country and the world. Into the ground.
Elliott @ 129
This implies that Bush was willing to tell the truth. Of all parts of this story, that’s the hardest part to believe.
GordonM @ 106
He’s one of my heros, and the reason my doggie is named Cindy Loo Hoo (who is no more than two).
Testing from a kitchen table somewhere in the wilds of NJ.
retirin’ in five @ 94
It is part of their “noble lie” only it’s called “a noble killing.” The end (to stay in power at any price) justifies the means. That’s a Bush win. He never did play fair at anything.
Exactly what I mean, Big Mitch. Dehumanize it — give it the euphemism, collateral damage. Over lies. Greed.
Badwater @ 141
That he couldn’t hide the truth is the only reason.
didn’t Tucker Carlson’s show air twice a day? looks like it’s been knocked back to once…
Millineryman @ 143
A whole lot of testing going on. How you been Milleneryman?
ccmask @ 139
We need to ask David Dill at Stanford University to write a piece for us.
Ooh, these guys are liars. Some of the contradictions and Bushian slips:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20056399/
Geren said the death “was a tragedy … this was an accident.” He said he could understand how the Tillman family and other Americans might reach the conclusion that there was a cover-up. “The facts just don’t support this conclusion,” he said. “There was no cover-up.”
How could he “understand” the conclusion if the facts didn’t support it?
Or:
Even though Tillman died from friendly fire, he still deserved the silver star he was awarded after his death, Geren said.”
Can any military types explain the likelihood of him getting a silver star for that, even if they stick to the version that they were under sniper fire?
I seriously doubt that Tillman was murdered. I think it indeed was an incident of tragic, unfortunate friendly fire. As to the legalities for whether Rumsfeld et al can assert Executive privilege…I’ll leave that to others.
But Rumsfeld et al owe a moral duty to Tillman, and to all members of the armed forces to come forward and testify as to what they know about the initial reports of Tillman’s death vs. the final reports of friendly fire.
Ghostman
OldCoastie @ 147
Still too much air time for Tuckery
retirin’ in five @ 145
Or human assets. That’s what the Forbes publisher Rich Karlgaard diminished our military to.
ccmask @ 148
Ask him about his baby bunny!
realworld @ 123
Said the Chimp shouldn’t have to sit on the jury because he might have to decide a pardon aplication later. It is said that the real reason was so that Chimp would not have to answer questions about his coke conviction, since expunged.
ccmask @ 148
Yes indeed looks like we’re all passing with flying colors. I’m ok, ccmask thanks for asking. How about with you?
BigMitch @ 155
Coke conviction? I thought it was a DUI conviction?!?!
How is your baby bunny?
I protest the war w/ a group every tues 6-7 and my 3′ X 4’sign tonight states:
Thr Tillman Murder
What did the president know?
When did the presidernt know?
Why is the white house hiding the truth about Pat Tillman’s murder?
Who stopped the doctors criminal investigation into the three bullets in a 2″ circle in Pat Tillman’s face?
Won’t you join me tonight because it’s Tillman time
OldCoastie @ 132
OK, that makes it understandable why Gonzo would then lie about that too during his confirmation hearings I guess.
QuakerGirl @ 136
The blame here rests entirely with the House leaders. Under the Constitution, We The People only have the rights to piss and moan and to vote in rigged elections. Oh, yeah, and to say fuck it and drop out.
Rice, Gates win no new Arab promises on Iraq
SHARM EL-SHEIKH, Egypt – The United States won no specific new promises of Arab help for struggling Iraq after a gathering Tuesday of several nations listed as recipients of an expanded aid and weapons package for friendly states in the region.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20037146/
Nearly five o’clock in DEECEE
When snowman said that the letter would be a little late he wasn’t kiddin!
Would it be rude to call Specter’s office and say, “Bwack bwack bwack bwack BWACK!”?
dakine01 @ 152
still, I have been writing the powers that be for at least a year every week or so, stating that *ucker is a waste of airtime… I’m sure many others have as well…
just wonderin’…
As to the trip of Gonzalez to get Bush out of jury duty – I heard on Talk Left on Sirius today (forget which program) that when asked about that trip during his confirmation hearings Gonzalez didn’t tell the truth.
OldCoastie @ 147
yep
Oklahoma kiddo @ 140
They didn’t complete their efforts the last time around, so they try, try again.
Pade @ 166
Shocked! Shocked, I tell you!
The bunny belongs to Mother Nature actually, my garden has been hosting it. I named it Snark. Snark lives under my neighbors porch with a chipmunk named Hoover.
I don’t ask any questions about that arrangement.
There’s a photo of Snark posted on my Facebook profile.
You’re right, Jane: “Some enterprising sportscasters really need to pick this story up. It deserves to be carried far and wide to a lot of people who just aren’t going to be exposed to it under other circumstances.”
Maybe the NFL and the Players Association could express some residual interest as well.
rwcole @ 163
CNN has the letter. See me at 121. Just more spin.
looseheadprop @ 103
As long as they claim Executive Privilege, evidence won’t be revealed; as long as evidence isn’t revealed, a crime cannot be proven; as long as a crime can’t be proven, Supreme Court ruling related to crime does not apply; if SC ruling does not apply, executive privilege cannot be struck down.
Y’all need to start thinking a bit more like these criminals.
Here’s the somewhat suggestive (”Escaping any blame”) conclusion to that AP story:
“Escaping any blame was Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, head of the military’s Joint Special Operations Command. He oversees the military’s most sensitive counterterrorism operations.”
McCrystal, according to this, is a “Jedi Knight”: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13…../newsweek/
Has anyone pondered whether DOD was reading Tillman’s communications, and something in there caused them to say
“who will rid us of this troublesome Ranger?”
aren’t all communications from soldiers subject to review/censorship?
it seems likely that they would have given his special attention.
so: were there any communications to/from the routine low level review/censorship people to higher echelons, when, and about what?
also, who ordered the destruction of Tillmans journal?
Ghostman @ 151
So you deny the forensic evidence of three tightly-placed bullet holes in the forehead, which could only be fired from a distance of less than ten yards? Because that’s what the medical examiners say. It would take an extraordinary circumstance for Tillman to be shot from that close in the forehead by accident.
Jonathan @ 161
And let’s never forget who these ******* are. (Sorry, I don’t use this kind of language but I am being driven to all sorts of things I don’t usually do – I declare, wash my mouth out with soap.)
Specter coming up on CNN.
puppethead @ 176
brendan @ 179
a magic bullet sort of thing
BigMitch @ 167
guess I’ll keep writing – maybe we can move him into the 2am slot…
Anybody found a link to the letter yet?
brendan @ 179
Arlen would only see one bullet.
OT.. UN Sec Council just authorized deployment of 26,000 troops to Darfur. US role will be restricted to troop transfer logistics.
realworld @ 123
It’s been suggested that Gonzo got Bush off of jury duty for a drunk driving trial, to avoid Bush having to publicly disclose his own drunk driving conviction in Maine (Mass?)(wherever it was)
MSNBC says that the letter from DOJ to specter has not arrived at 2:oo pm pacific time.
puppethead @ 10
Mad Dogs @ 168
For 25 years I called Kissinger the most evil person of the 20th century. Hitler was in your face so you easily knew what he was about. But Henry is insidious and far worse. I think he is Rasputin. He is so evil that he is here forever. Like Rangda, ultimate evil in Balinese mythology, you cannot kill ultimate evil. It is!
puppethead @ 176
Yes, I deny. Because there is NO “extraordinary forensic evidence”. There is only a musing of a army doctor.
“Groupings” by no means imply close distance. For example, 3 rounds could fly within 2-3 inches of his left ear, and out into space. Three more hits him. Another 3 fly within 2-3 inches of his right ear, and off into space. Range of fire could easily be several hundred yards. The shooter would’ve fired in a line from his right to left, and three of those rounds caught Tillman in the head.
Ghostman
BigMitch @ 186
I thought CNN already had it?
Elliott @ 180
Au contraire, it takes a well-trained sniper to shoot a group like that, and most firearms training emphasizes shooting for the center of the body. A head shot is a risky shot, even at point-blank range.
Gunga Djinn @ 185
Maine (Kennebunkport)
Think Progess has a little of the letter.
Over a year ago there was talk of the wh senior staff getting tired & wearing down. Even with people leaving & replaced, it’s gotta be a hellish grind every day there constantly battling new scandals. Drip, drip, drip. At least I hope that is the case. They deserve it.
Brisingamen @ 191
So, what are you saying here?
Regardless of how Pat was killed, it sure looks like the administration at the highest levels decided to make this a political coup.
If there was discussion of doing this it would sicken the people… all the people… except those cynical enough to do anything (out ValGal) to advance their selfish agendas. And there WAS a discussion and orders were given and the fragging was covered up and here we are.
The idea that it was a hit is hard to wrap your mind around… but these guys have absolutely no moral sense… they torture don’t they?
Brisingamen @ 191
Don’t the new M-16’s fire three round bursts on auto?
OldCoastie @ 193
thanks!
Specter’s been waitin at the OK Corral for five hours now- hope it hasn’t taken a toll on his shootin ability!
Jane, sportscasters are having trouble getting their heads around the Mike Vick case so bad they have all decided to “Wait until September,” that and Barry Bonds breaking the homerun record tied to the steroid scandal, Bonds has become their Alberto Gonzales. Sports in general is in full damage contol. It’s all about selling tickets to games. Don’t expect sports casters and team owners, let alone players, to step up and become socially responsible. Covering up and keeping quiet, slow to react, and “not taking action at this time” is their game plan.
SanderO @ 196
Where is the Good Shepherd for We the People?
Eureka Springs @ 183
Yeah, but it would have had to pass through Tillman without striking any bony structure, made some amazing turns, then smashed into John Connally, fracturing both rib and wrist bones (losing considerable material in the process), and then be found on a stretcher in an unsecured area in near-pristine condition.
SanderO @ 196
A major qualification to be part of this administration and a NeoCon is to be A-moral.
Jay Inslee on Hardball on Gonzo impeachment….
raven @ 197
so the bullets would hit essentially simultaneously?
sporkovat @ 175
“Other intelligence activities,” (OIA) means reading everyone’s snail mail, e-mail, phone calls. But I am guessing that OIA may have been applied extensively to the military itself, and government officials. The Spying on Americans programs, most important targets would be those officials and military officers, who would tell the truth.
new thread
The administration minions seem to thrive nicely on lies, like some kind of a lie-spell. Tony Snow looks well lately, too. God Bless him.
Jonathan @ 202
707!
FYI, New Post upstairs
OldCoastie @ 193
Thank you so much
Safely in EPU land
I wrote this a long time ago
some answers. Cindy Sheehan gave the ultimate sacrifice to this country, a son who was killed in Iraq. She represents at the very least the 60% of America who are demanding answers on this war.
Used to prescripted talking points in front of preselected audiences and questioning by pseudo journalists Karl and Dick do not dare let you talk to her. After all, what could you say besides “I am sorry” which is not a part of the vocabulary of your neocom crowd. Will you “swagger” down the road to Sheehan like you did to the world community or will we see a reinvented humble man who “shares” our sacrifice and “feels” our pain? No, my guess is that Karl and Dick won’t let you. Harry Truman’s “the buck stops here”
most definitely does not apply here. Here is what you should do:
1. Send Scooter Libby, Dick’s hatchet man. He will explain that Valerie Plame’s information led to the vision of mushroom clouds soon to arrive from Baghdad. We were misled by a conspiracy of journalists and Democrats that thought preemption was the better part of valor.
2. Send Paul Bremer who will assure the Gold Star Mother that her son’s death will not be in vain since we hope to have Halliburton get the electricity up to pre-Sadaam levels by 2006. After all we are rebuilding Iraq using 27% Iraqi labor.
3. Send Pat Tillman’s parents to console Ms. Sheehan. They will assure her heroes do not die in vain despite lies to the contrary. “Spreading democracy” is a noble goal with truth as one of its virtues. The Tillmans will assure Sheehan that the War department shares their pain and that we have to keep up morale no matter if “friendly fire” destroys that myth..
4. Send Dick Cheney. He will assure her that the “war against insurgents is in its last throes “and is being won and that everyone in the administration has discussed this with him and assured him that 9/11 has not been an excuse to bankrupt America morally, economically, and spiritually.
5. Swagger down yourself. Tell her that “the central front on terror” is Iraq, that we must fight them here or there. Tell her that your daughters, mindful of massive shortfalls in military recruitment, have enlisted to go to Iraq for “as long as it takes.” Tell her that you, too, feel her pain.
Sincerely, An American Patriot
QuakerGirl @ 195
That it was deliberate — not accidental ‘friendly fire’ as claimed. Usually, only ’special forces’ are trained to do head shots, regular military are trained to go for heart/body shots. I find it highly unlikely that badly aimed friendly fire would produce the result described above.
raven @ 197
Might be so — but you wouldn’t get a group like that from auto-fire, the gun moves too much.
Ghostman @ 151
To leave the idea “out there” that those soldiers who disagree with the war risk this same fate is unconscionable.
Kevin Tillman has put forth his informed view of why they would try to cover up the was his brother was killed in his opening statement in the April hearing.
The pictures of Abu Ghraib had just come out and he states that he believes that the administration did not want to hurt the war effort anymore by telling the truth about his brother’s death. So they lied… right through a memorial service, right to his parents.
Listen to Kevin Tillman.
Brisingamen @ 212
I really appreciate you going into more detail. I am not a weapons carrying kind of gal. I just know they kill and mame. Thanks for informing me. I need it.
QuakerGirl @ 216
You’re welcome. My ex-husband’s father was a gun collector, and I often shot some of his pistols on the range in his yard. What you see on TV or in the movies is wildly inaccurate.
What he didn’t teach me, some of my friends who’ve served in the military did.
CREW needs a new spokesperson.
Melanie just does not come across as aggressively as she should, especially against an idiot like Barnicale.
Frank @ 206
exactly. so inquiring minds could attempt to locate who is tasked to routinely follow the communications of high value
targetssoldier/heroes and what communications went upstream for there to Rumsfeld/Rove/OVP.OIA is also seemingly coupled to whatever Office of Blackmail and Threats that has leading Democrats so cowed into acting contrary to the will of the people and the Constitution.
Brisingamen @ 214
While these were not SF, Rangers are really good. I don’t that kind of shot grouping is that rare for them.
This nam vet thinks it was murder
Tillman
Read Bill Perry View on OpEdNews.com for more info
Based on accounts, the firefight appeared to have ended, at which point Tillman stood up from behind the rock. He was immediately killed.
Sounds to me like they had him locked-on, and the moment his head came into view, it was over.
i.e. head shots, not body shots.
(of course his burned body armor may have held more lead than a boat anchor, but my point is that the head target presented itself to at least one very good shooter)
Well, as sometimes happens, the damn phone, a/k/a “work” (chuckle) gets in the way of my promptly answering some legitimate questions. Oh well. Guess no-one will read this, but ANYWAY:
1. boston1775: I think you identify good motive for a cover-up. I continue to believe that the “stink” here is only in a cover-up on the friendly fire…not a murder.
2. raven, and a few others: I bet, raven, you’re thinking of the selector switch? Yeah, you can run on semi-auto or on “burst” fire. Burst is 3 round volley.
Ghostman
fwiw, I have been told the new sights are quite good. The Military has been surprised at the very high percentage of head shots they have achieved. They initially suspected the troops were following up on the wounded, rather than deal with prisoners.
Why doesn’t Waxman issue a subpoena for Rumsfeld’s testimony? Is Waxman so naive to think that Rummy would come on his own? The Republicans are a disaster but the Democrats are not far behind.
raven @ 221
Listening to NPR this afternoon and they kept up the mantra “friendly fire”. The MSM would rather it be “friendly fire” than outright murder of someone that opposed the neocons and actually could think for himself.
Brisingamen @ 23
I believe you meant to say “under what possible non-frivolous theory …” they’ll come up with a theory. These clowns have shown themselves to be both resourceful and shameless in what they seem to be able to argue with a straight face. And since the clowns coming up with the theories aren’t the ones who will have to argue them in court, the threat of Rule 11 sanctions is clearly not a viable deterrent; those sanctions will fall on some poor schlub from DOJ or the DC USA’s office.
Au contraire, it takes a well-trained sniper to shoot a group like that, and most firearms training emphasizes shooting for the center of the body. A head shot is a risky shot, even at point-blank range.
But if the head just popped up from behind a wall, in the middle of the firefight, and the shooter were just 30 feet away, then it is pretty plausible that a reflexive burst would do what happened here.
This is not evidence that it was not murder, just pointing out a plausible theory that it could have been an accident, albeit an accident made possible by criminal negligence on the part of the officers present.
Friendly fire only indicates that the shots came from a US soldier, it does not deal with motive and implies it was just an accident.
The idea that it was not an accident would be earth shattering. That would be suppressed with a full court press.
When evidence is destroyed… deliberately… think the worst… qui bono.
“friendly fire” = limited hang-out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hang-out
NPR can now stand for National Propaganda Radio, unfortunately.
tehy ran a brazen set up/call for war against Iran yesterday.
QuakerGirl @ 188
Yeah and the Clintons are good peole who tell it like it is, who have foresight and energy and the courage to speak the truth, who care not for their personal wealth and self-promotion. They are incidental sailors on the sea of politics, drawn by the good winds of change and providence. Oh, if we only had them instead of Kissinger, so much the better.
for # 123:
WRT Bush/Gonzo jury duty scam in Texas: Bush had a DUI in Kennebunkport in his earlier days. If he completed the jury questionnaire, he would have had to admit to the conviction. His questionnaire was completely filled out (Gonzo stated an aide did it but did not know the answer to the felony/misdemeanor question, so it was not answered). Gonzo persuaded the judge that Bush as Governor might be called upon to pardon the defendant in the future, so it would be a conflict of interest for him to serve- thus saving Bush from having to document his DUI. Also, (she says laughing), the defendant was charged with DUI.
I read last year that the silver star, or whatever “High Honor” they awarded Pat Tillman, was ordered for him via military channels before he died…like they planned it. This is sickening.
Read Pat Tillman’s brother’s letter, Open letter from Kevin Tillman, written on Pat’s birthday.
There is a wide range of oversight committee investigations. They are a bit more wide-ranging than we’ve seen (at least on t.v.) before. However, it seems they are all earnest and aimed at the heart of the Bush mafia.
This IS a good thing.