The controversy over the Bush Administration’s illegal surveillance of Americans and the Attorney General’s role in concealing it became more intense over the weekend. Much of the focus was on the side show of whether Attorney General Gonzales did or did not mislead or lie to Congress when he claimed there was never any significant disagreement over the “program the President has confirmed.” But the “underlying crime,” which the Administration keeps trying to sweep under the rug, is and always has been the illegal spying on Americans. And bit by bit, the Administration has been forced to concede it engaged in these crimes for years.
On the “did Gonzales lie” front, the big shiny object news came from the Administration leaks to the New York Times and Washington Post, in which anonymous officials planted the story that Gonzales might have been telling the truth when he said there was no disagreement about the confirmed program, because he meant the limited program of NSA surveillance of communications involving al Qaeda affiliated parties on one end and US residents on the other. The matters about which James Comey and Robert Mueller were prepared to resign were not that program but instead “other programs” based on data mining. The progressive bloodhounds have already dissected these misleading leaks.
Keying off a long analysis by Marty Lederman, Glenn Greenwald goes through the credibility of these leaks and not only debunks their accuracy but excoriates the Times and Post for once again serving as uncritical vehicles for anonymous Administration leaks intended to exonerate Administration officials. Glenn also notes that:
(1) The Times and WaPo stories do not get Gonzales off the hook because the Comey et al legal objections were not limited just to data mining activities; they also included “other activities”;
(2) Former NSA Director Hayden emphatically denied that NSA ever performed such data mining — [then who did?];
(3) The nature and scope of the programs to which Comey and Mueller referred in their testimonies continue to be unknown; so
(4) We still need to find out what the Bush Administration was doing on each and all of these programs.
At The Next Hurrah, emptywheel adds to Anonymous Liberal’s discussion of the perjury charge, systematically parsing the statements of Bush, Gonzales, Comey, and Mueller, trying to close off the Adminstration’s defenses against lying. And yesterday, Marcy carried Lederman’s data mining analysis further and concluded that Bush had been violating the law in multiple ways:
Which is a fancy way of saying that the data-mining violated the requirements for probable cause in FISA, but the data-mining itself probably violated a law Congress had passed in Fall 2003 specifically to prevent data-mining of American citizens. Which would mean that, no matter the outcome of debates over the AUMF-based justification for violating FISA and the Article II-based justification for violating FISA, if Bush was also violating this provision, then he was violating something passed subsequent to the AUMF and subsequent to Bush’s initial authorization of the program.
You’ll recall from Constitutional law posts by Prof, looseheadprop and Christy, Marcy’s chronology means that the Yooian legal justifications relied on by Bush are even weaker than we assumed. The later enacted statute banning data mining reduces the President’s inherent power to its weakest point (just as FISA does) and its timing supercedes any argument based on the War Authorization. Marcy also notes that the Times fails to discuss its own knowledge about whether the Administration made its program distinctions back in 2004 when it convinced the Times’ editors to withhold the story for over a year.
[Update: See emptywheel's latest connecting the dots on Rockefeller's letter to Cheney wrt to data mining.]
The Administration’s new storyline did not seem to do Gonzales much good. Fox News’ Chris Wallace pursued the Gonzales story with Senator Feingold but reported that Fox was unable to find any Republican willing to come on the show to defend Gonzales. Senator Leahy, appearing on Face the Nation gave Gonzales one week to clarify his testimony, or else . . . Connecticut’s Chris Shays told reporters he wished Gonzales would just resign for the good of the party. And there were more stories today on the history of Gonzales misleading Congress.
Finally, Kagro X reports that Gonzales will be pleased to know that in Ellen Tauscher’s copy of the Constitution, there apparently is no provision for impeaching the Attorney General. I suspect the New York Times, whose editorial page called for Gonzales’ impeachment if he does not come clean, will be happy to loan Ms. Tauscher their copy.
Related posts:
- Bush’s Illegal Domestic Surveillance Program Also Expanded “Legal” Spying
- Obama’s New State Secrets Policy is Reaffirmation Of Bush’s Policy
- Days after Taguba Reported Sadistic Criminal Abuse at Abu Ghraib, DOD Asked to Use More Torture Methods
- The Torture Gang: The Entire Bush Administration
- The Emails the Bush Lawyers Were So Worried About



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Caw caw
Former NSA Director Hayden is under no obligation to tell the truth about NSA activities.
Arlen said yesterday on FTN that he will, today (Mon) be “read into” the spying program. No mention made of the *Chairman* of the Judiciary Committee, receiving the same offer.
Interesting, I think. Declassification – it’s a Republican thing.
This morning Diane Rehm show will be focused on the AG showdown. Call 1-800-433-8850 or e-mail your questions drshow@wamu.org
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/
Scarecrow I bet you could get a question in from Firedoglake.
Polite, clear and on point is what Dorie (wonderful screener at the Rehm show) is looking for. Lots of people listen to Diane’s show. Good luck
Scarecrow @ Top:
Comey must have told the SSCI or SJC what the details of those programs were. Obviously, not the full SJC, but maybe those members cleared for such information (i.e., SJC members who are also on SSCI).
I’m not sure what other information can be drawn from that conclusion. But the fact that there are at least a few Senators who know the details suggests that Gonzo & Company can’t keep it hidden forever.
* says @ 2
Don’t know if you’re being sarcastic or not, but Haydn is obligated not to lie to Congress.
There are matters he can’t testify about in open session, and there may be matters that he can’t testify about at all due to ‘national security’ concerns (though that would raise red flag) — but he can’t lie about them. Not legally, anyway.
Has the goverments data mining via wiretaping been undermined by a foreign government? Have other countries been able to access this data mining?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fm0_7jVqcE
Watch all four reports. Amdocs, Comverse Infosy (communication systems data mining) Were these systems infiltrated?
* @ 2
In which country?
Kathleen @ 4
Thanks for the heads up.
jayt @ 3
Cheney can use his insta-declassification wand.
This Sunday when Chris Matthews asked his four guests if Gonzales would go they all said no.
Matthews said he thought Gonzales would go due to Muellers testimony being so “damning”
Since the Republican Party is unwilling to let the Democratic Congress legislate, there is nothing left for the Democrats to do but…
Impeach (Gonzales)
Impeach (Cheney)
Impeach (Bush)
I think people have already guessed the answer to this one:
“(2) Former NSA Director Hayden emphatically denied that NSA ever performed such data mining — [then who did?]”
Private contractors–friends of the administration. These are the people who do the data mining anyway and who define “need to know” with the same insouciance as Rove and Libby.
Look for links to election tampering, smuggling, embezzlement, and the manufacture of evidence and you’ll see how it all starts to fit together.
jayt @ 3
Arlen STILL acts (and speaks) as if he is in charge of the show.
No clown, you are NOT. What you say is totally irrelevant and guaranteed to be a sell-out. I must conclude one of two possibilities: Either the illegal spying by BushCo has captured “unfortunate” information about Arlen so that he ALWAYS goes their way when crunch time comes up, OR a mixture of his cancer and the treatment and his age have combined to render his mind a mere shadow of its former callow self.
When is he up for re-election? Is there no Dem that will take him on? He’s such a loser that it should be easy to unseat him at this point.
Scarecrow: Your question #2, “then who did?”
Apparently the intelligence was outsourced to private companies, which did the data mining. This is what is being covered up. (Illegal activity which has been classified, but is being done overseas by private data companies.)
An anonymous poster at TPM yesterday laid it out, including how to “audit” for the missing emails.
See this thread at The Muck. It is very, very long. Look for the anonymous posts. And particularly look near the end of the thread for a post shortly before midnight.
See: http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003805.php
Do the hard work. Follow up on all the leads. And BINGO! The light will dawn.
Don’t forget the house can impeach it takes the senate to convict
Is Ed Rendell going to take Haggis McSpecter out in 2010?
-GSD
I think, Scarecrow, that you are describing a perfect storm of administration illegality, lying and coverup now finally coming unravelled. Glenn is absolutely right-the parsing of Gonzo’s testimony and the “distinction from data mining” leak to the NYT is a last-ditch attempt to hold the dike. Gonzo is the firewall for Bush as it pertains to the NSA stuff and the dam is about to break.
‘Course Arlen doesn’t think the SJC is in the “perjury prosecution bidness”.
A special prosecutor is the first best choice, then impeachment. The impeachment proceeding could put the whole administration underwater as the cascade of lies pours forth.
Scarecrow @ 10
Yes, but only when needed to prop up a Repub senator who shows signs of wavering away from unquestioning support of the admin.
I’m sure Arlen will get the full kid-glove treatment today – and I am also sure that he will only be given such information as is needed to bring him back into the fold, but *not* any information which might be suspect. In other words, they’re gonna lie to him by way of presentation of cherry-picked bits of info.
Thereafter, Arlen will be able to go back to the Committee, and criticize any and all Dem efforts, on the grounds that the Dem’s don’t know what the hell they’re talking about.
And he will be right, while blissfully unaware that *he* doesn’t know what he’s talking about either.
Chip Reid and MSNBCorp really carryin’ the sand this morning trying to get good ol’ Fredo off the hook.
He sleeps with the fishes….
Knowing the Bush Cheney penchant for always doing the wrong thing I am sure the data mining was farmed out to a Hezbollah or Al Qa*da run company because they came in at the right price.
-GSD
PR @ 16
Absolutely right. However, the public hearings in the House would lay out the whole story in such a way that there is no chance that Gonzo could survive it.
GSD @ 17
He has said in the past he has no desire to be a Senator. I don’t have a link for that. The line below is from Wiki
Ed Rendell announced that his re-election campaign in 2006 would be the last one of his career.Ed Rendell
Tunnelvision @ 13
That’s it!
I’ve been trying to figure out what the hell could be so damning that Comey, Ashcroft, Mueller, et. al., were are willing to threaten resigning.
Data-mining to identify warrantless wiretapping targets, bad as it is by itself, just didn’t seem like enough to justify the level of secrecy displayed or the resignation threats.
But outsourcing it to ‘friends of the administration’? Oh yeah, that’s could definitely do it.
I think you (and whoever you got the speculation from) have nailed it.
Kathleen @ 4
thanks for the heads up. listening now.
blergh. here are the guests:
why are AEI hacks still on my radio?
TheraP
Scarecrow: Your question #2, “then who did?”
I think it’s reasonable to assume “outsourcing,” but that begs the question: for whom. Who got the information? and what did they do with it. Somewhere in there we should also find why the FBI/Mueller was so heavily involved that he too was willing to resign — assuming NSA did this never answered that question for me.
It looks like a good, ripe time to pass legislation barring “outsourcing” of intelligence operations to corporations or outside entities…particularly for use against American citizens. They need to stipulate warrants required before ANY spying on ANY American citizen. Not by the government, not by corporations.
This is key. No one can get up in front of the American people and support this guy. That’s why he’s being “defended” by leaks and innuendo by obscure think tankers. Impeaching Gonzo is, as Rove would say, a “no-brainer”.
jayt @ 19
I think Joe Klein already used that argument. Isn’t he the one who said, “I don’t know much about this program, but its opponents know less than I do, so I must be right when I say it’s a good program.” Or something like that.
Sunday I watched the Senate Judiciary hearing with Gonzales again.
I’m glad I did, it was worth it. For one reason, it just made me feel better watching Leahy, Whitehouse, Schumer, Feingold, DIFI, and the others ask the important questions and also be suitably disgusted with Gonzales and BushCo.
But also, after reading all the analysis and opinions from those whose analysis and opinions are worth reading (like those here), well, I got a whole lot more out of it than I did the first time. plus I got to feel that little glow of hope again.
Praedor Atrebates @ 14
2010. I suspect he’ll retire after this term. He’s getting pretty old, and his 2004 race was very close. I doubt Arlen wants to risk going out on a loss.
Elliott
That hope thingie brings a lot of us back to the lake again and again.
this reminds me…. time to call harry reid’s office to ask that he not recess congress – do not allow abu to resign and president bush to appoint a “temporary” replacement to serve out the rest of bush’s term.
There’s a lot being made about whether he lied on this particular point, ie. that there was, or was not, disagreement about said/not said NSA spying program.
But not enough is being made about all the other lies that he told, especially when he said “I don’t recall”, or “I don’t remember”, to questions that were given to him in advance, that could easily be checked by looking at a simple appointment book, or checked by looking at the minutes of any given meeting. Or are we to believe that there are no appointment books, no notes taken at meetings and that Gonzo just wanders around the DOJ hopefully stumbling into a meeting where he might know what’s going on? He is lying!
Does this all remind anyone of J.Edgar Hoover?? Or are you all too young? Just what this country needs Hoover in the WH! The thing this worries me is- how many Dem operatives are they listening in on? Think Hillary is under surveillance? Just a thought……
GeorgeSimian @ 34
A common complaint. We should post a standard disclaimer: “Today we will talk only about the 124th absessed suction cup on the 6th tentacle of this monster; we will get to the other outrages in turn. Please be patient.”
selise @ 25
Actually, as far as AEI hacks go, Ornstein isn’t too bad. He comes across as marginally saner than the rest of them. Unless I’m getting him confused with another Norman.
Scarecrow @ 25:
You have put your finger on one of the problems with the outsourcing! EXACTLY!
Who did it? Where did it go?
Take a good look at all the long posts of the anonymous person on the thread. Because it lays out how auditors and fraud investigators work. And how it will already be possible to pinpoint what the administration has deleted and when. Because the data to compare “what’s left” with “what should be there” EXISTS and has been sent to the EU by the CIA. (That’s the story – and it’s been stated over and over in Muck Posts, first cryptically and now more openly.)
Ask all the questions you want over at tpm and the “mystery poster” will answer them. I did yesterday. And wow! A deluge.
The main problem: How to explain this to your ordinary voter? But I tried in a post there this morning. You are welcome to steal my ideas, without attribution. I believe in “open source” and all working together.
grumbles @ 35
They have pictures of her in a V-neck. I’ve seen them.
JGabriel @ 31
He’s collecting the money for a run, just happened to be announced in mid March:
I think Congress should stay in session as long as we have soldiers in the M.E.. Just a thought.
Scarecrow @ 29
Joe Klein = Arlen Specter?
Which one should be insulted by this comparison, I wonder.
grumbles @ 35
*DING*DING*DING* I think spying on political enemies is at the bottom of all of this mess. I keep asking myself- why are so many prominent democrats silent?
egregious @ 32
I was running low there for a bit
ps Happy Almost Birthday!
JGabriel @ 37
FYI: Norman Orenstein is well-known as the token liberal at AEI.
To clarify a bit more. We are all looking for the answers to tiny questions. Whereas the databases hold the overall pattern, which should have been audited on a regular basis – by law.
I am sold on the idea that we may never get all the answers to the inconsistencies. But that we need to focus on areas where the information is “missing” but should be there – when compared to the original databases. It’s like math. Balance your checkbook. And find out where the errors lie. And bingo!
Check it out for yourself:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003805.php
kinmo @ 41
I hope they listen to you because I’m just dreading this recess.
JGabriel @ 37
i think you’re right.
but when i think that i could be listening to marcy, paul, scarecrow, glenn, AL,… well, it just makes me want to scream.
For my birthday, I want the gift of courage for every person of good will in our nation…courage to put a stop to this madness.
citizensue @ 43
And reporters.
Is the Congressional recess slated to begin on Friday? And is is for all of August?
Elliott @ 40
Hmm. Surprised I didn’t know that — my family is in Pennsylvania.
In that case, he may be difficult to beat. Even though Specter mostly votes along the party line like a good Publican lap dog, his queroluous rhetoric gives him an ‘independent’ aura that plays well there.
Still, Specter can be beat. He’s not really that popular.
woo hoo! – caller to diane rehm just asked about the possibility of recess appoint of a replacement for abu.
Biodun @ 45
Thanks for the confirmation. I thought it was Orenstein, but wasn’t certain.
Just a thought, but I wonder if Bush has any signing statements in the last few years that would address the data mining and other activities? Have they covered their tracks in legalistic challenges to the constitution? Bush seems to beleive that he can change the laws when he signs them and break them when he wants to.
It is a vast, well planned, slow motioned attempt to subvert the constitution.
Most stories in the MSM have “identified” the source of the data mining efforts as the call records of the Telcos (AT&T, Verizon, Bell South, etc.).
What has generally slipped under the radar is the probability that the data mining was also taking place on Credit card records of the good ol’ boys of Visa and Mastercharge. Feckin’ Priceless!
And just who do you think would already have the necessary software to sort this data any which way they pleased?
The Marketeers at those very same companies would, he says.
Why, even Junya and Gonzo could lie with straight faces in denying that the Gubmint ever did any data mining, doncha know?
Of course, being accessories to the crime under the law, is the same as being the perpertrators of the crime, doncha know?
Or as Junya will be fond of, and known for saying: “Pardon me!”
selise @ 53
and the reply was?
TheraP @ 38
Why does this feel like a virtual deepthroat? I keep envisioning a dark, smokey garage. And we are all Bob Woodward.
Sorry, it’s me. On my someone else’s laptop in a hotel in Vegas. [Mod: Don’t worry.]
Elliott @ 57
Yes, Bush could do it but it would be a political bomb. And the questioner was from Grand Rapids MI, a very conservative place.
DMoore @ 58:
You are correct! This time it’s up to us! The press is too implicated in spreading propaganda. We the People. The FOURTH BRANCH. It’s up to us!
demi @ 59
are you on someone else’s lap or on a computer ;)
Everything this adm. has done has been to create that ‘permanent republican majority’. No actual governing. They’ve used such boogey men as sexual predators, terrorists etc. to justify their actions. But, we know that that has never been their major concern. That was all just smoke and mirrors as they spied on anyone who might stand in their way. My suspicions were raised when Ted Kennedy showed up on the no-fly list. He must have been one of the targets for eavesdropping and his name crossed over. And, let’s not forget the rumors that Christina Amanpour was being listened to.
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/PO…..index.html
here’s another article about gonzales
OT Alert…..
Rick Renzi has not announced that he will run again in 08 and the AZ GOP already have several candidates filed to run for CD01…. Heard that the AZ GOP do not have the money to run a special election so they hope that Renzi can hold it until the end of his term.
woohoo… this is a blue district
#60 cont. Also, who noone with self respect would take the job as a recess appt?
Biodun @ 45
Actually, Ornstein is more than sane. He used to appear regularly on Al Franken’s show on Air America. He’s a very smart and sensible guy. I have no idea why he’s at the AEI.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003767.php
It was not just 400 loyal Bushies who had access to DOJ confidential, information on criminal cases. The OVP, Darth Cheney and hundreds of his minions were also given access. TPM reports how Gonzo promised to fix this but, he only increased the number of political appointees with access to investigations of MZM, Foley, Ney, Dukester etc.
This opens up the pool to maybe thousands of political operatives who used DOJ information, and maybe shared it with others. I bet some even used the RNC e-mail accounts. Sen. Whitehouse is great!
============================
WHITEHOUSE: Let me ask you first, what on Earth business does the Office of the Vice President have in the internal workings of the Department of Justice with respect to criminal investigations, civil investigations, ongoing matters?
GONZALES: As a general matter, I would say that that’s a good question.
(LAUGHTER) WHITEHOUSE: Why is it here then?
GONZALES: I’d have to go back and look at this.
WHITEHOUSE: I’d like to know where this came from and how that addition was made… And here, you can see the difference. It’s almost identical with the previous memorandum, only it adds some things: “Notwithstanding any procedure or limitations set forth above, the attorney general may communicate directly with the president, vice president” — so far, same as the Ashcroft memorandum. Then you add, “their chiefs of staff, counsel to the president,” then you add “or vice president.” Somebody took the trouble to write in “counsel to the vice president” and provide that individual access to ongoing criminal investigations, ongoing civil investigations and ongoing other investigative matters.
WHITEHOUSE: If you go further on down, what was the staff of the Office of the President has become the staff of the White House Office and the entire Office of Management and Budget has been thrown in.
I think it’s reasonable to assume “outsourcing,” but that begs the question: for whom. Who got the information? and what did they do with it. Somewhere in there we should also find why the FBI/Mueller was so heavily involved that he too was willing to resign — assuming NSA did this never answered that question for me.
I think an important question is “When”…indications are that illegal spying and data mining by the phone companies occurred *before* 9/11.
Sharon @ 60
thanks!
Solai @ 63
I’d be shocked if they hadn’t been spying on the press since as soon as they could.
Elliott @ 62
Ha! The Mr. is on a business trip here, and will be taking the ‘puter with him in a few minutes. Wah. Guess I’ll take the kid down to the pool. Will miss this though. I’ll catch up with y’all tonight.
I watched the Gonzales hearing again yesterday and watched carefully when Whitehouse questioned Gonzales about the number of contacts between DOJ and the White House and other parts of the government.
He referred to a document that was signed by Ashcroft and Gonzales talked about making the situation better.
Then Whitehouse brought out the killer document, signed by Gonszales, which only made things worse. The Vice President and his counsel was added in with an asterisk at the end. I wrote at Next Hurrah that it looked like he had never seen the document before. He kept turning the pages back and forth, studying it.
I know that Ashcroft has spoken with the SJC.
What do you bet that Ashcroft had no idea what his signature was found on, just as Gonzales appeared to have no idea.
(My head’s getting sweaty under this tin foil.)
JGabriel @ 37
Norman is as about as reasonable as they get at AEI. AEI still rules. Think tanks still the way to spin the info. At the very least the Diane Rehm show and all supposedly “fair and balanced” media outlets could do is to pull guest from a variety of Think Tanks. Brookings, New America Foundation, American Eneterprise Institute.
Is AEI the only think tank in Washington? I don’t think so.
Remember the guy from Seattle who they took into custody for several weeks, blaming him of the bombing in Bali? Remember the guy who tried to blow up the bridge? Remember the guy from canada who was tortured and later found not to be guilty. I think it is possible but I have no proof of this, that they used data mining and ended up arresting and interogating some innocent folks based on following “bad” leads or “errors”. Then tortured some of them. I think this could be enough of a smoking gun…due to a lawsuit…that showed that they were monitoring lawyer/client phone calls on the bridge bomber. (who ended up to be pretty harmless). If this were true it would end the surveillance problem or at least look very bad for it’s use and if they used it in conjunction with torture, would help lawsuits galore.
I think this may also be part of the issue… though I could be wrong. It seems weird to me, that so many folks (2 in the news) were busted and not guilty. What was their evidence, it is never told.
“Correspondance” from Lieberman:
Not speaking about demi here, just a general heads up that using multiple names here can be cause for banning.
Can you imagine Sandra Day O’Connor being appointed to be any part of this scandal/investigation? This is part of the Supreme Court team that brought us the Bush administration through their Judicial Coup in 2000.
There must be someone else that is just a might more neutral than Sandra Day O’Connor.
Katie Jensen @ 74
Our mary, who posts on the DOJ, talked of the practices used on terror suspects bleeding over into domestic actions.
I asked if this led to any Americans being tortured.
No answer.
Norman Ornstein:
JGabriel @ 5
Was the wiretaping programs data mining component infiltrated? Did they spy on Colin Powell and Kofi Anan?
Via this wiretapping did they undermine negotiations with Iran?
Boston1775 @ 72
Gonzales probably looks at everything that way, including the morning paper if he sees it again in the afternoon.
“This paper says at the top that it’s Monday? I’m sorry, Senator, I’ll have to go back to my staff and get more details about this whole ‘day of the week’ thing. I’ll also have to ask about whether I’m allowed to talk to you about it.”
John OMara @ 55
Follow the links in the post to emptywheel’s posts on data mining, where she discusses a relevant signing statement.
grumbles @ 35
LBJ famous crude quote about Hoover…”I’d rather have him inside the tent pissing Out rather than outside the tent pissing in”*(G)
Kathleen @ 80:
Assume the worst. Blackmail. Etc. Using all the info gathered. Information. Disinformation. Election tampering. You name it!
Boston1775 @ 72
I wondered about this. Were we to assume that the OVP part wasnt’t there when Abu signed it?
Boston1775 @ 72
as an aside to your thoughts here, and perhaps it was here, what you describe, where I got the impression while watching Gonzales that he doesn’t actually run anything at the DoJ. Just holds the title so he can enable those who are implementing one-party (that would be Republican Party) rule
Scarecrow @ 10
I just emailed Leahey telling him he should insist that former members of the “Gang of 8″ be allowed to attend this meeting to see if the version Specter is told about is the same as the one that they had objections to. And the group should also include those members of the new “Gang of 8″ that have not YET been briefed.
This seems reasonable…and it will allow all the members to hear the concerns and questions of other members, and hear the WH responses. Much better for “advise and consent” than having six or seven different briefings.
Why would the WH object unless they were going to shape things for different Senators!
Katie Jensen @ 74
Do you mean the Muslim Attorney from Portland Oregon who was suspected of the train bombing in Spain?
What that can of worms did was spotlight how defective fingerprint ID is and that there is no standards between agencies. They said his fingerprints were on bomb parts found in Spain and he had not left the country.
Scarecrow,
On the signing statements: Did Bush attach these to laws just passed by Congress and then NOT make this public? (Charlie Savage found this out through research, right?)
I’m asking this because I wonder if that pattern carried over to other documents signed by the Attorney General.
Kevster @ 67
Yes, you’re right. I should have been less parsimonious in my praise. I didn’t want to go too far out on a limb though, given the AEI affiliation, in case there more controversial essays be Orenstein of which I wasn’t aware.
My bad.
This is parsing taken to the absurd.
Of course the NSA was data mining…that’s what the NSA does. But for the purpose of defending their crimes, it will be parsed-down to ‘keyword trapping’ & ‘behavioral pattern recognition’ by faceless & indifferent bots (or some such).
Meanwhile, my Chertoff (gut) says we don’t know the half of this program & it’s abuses. Tracking of political enemies, foreign friendlies, industrial & financial competitors, medical practitioners and petty criminals are all almost certain. And that’s before we do any really evil Cheneythink.
Sharon @ 60
And…? So it would be a political bomb. Since when does Bush care? Hell’s bells, he could do it simply to drop a political bomb to show “he’s the boss and the Unitary Decider”. How about appointing Harriet Myers? Wouldn’t THAT be a hoot!
Elliott @ 86
again, only tin foil, but I wonder if Ashcroft found out that this had happened to him – through Comey or Goldsmith – and from then on refused to go along.
Solai @ 85
I got the feeling that when a Cheney minion puts something under Gonzales’ nose he just signs it. He clearly had not seen that memo before. I love Whitehouse, but he should have asked the questions “Did you write it?” “Did you read it before you signed it?” And if the answer was “yes” then the follow-up should have been “What were you thinking?” and if the answer was “no”, then holy cow!! Either way Gonzo was screwed.
citizensue @ 43
QUESTION: Does Rove or Cheney have any verifiable history of using blackmail?
This morning I wrote a letter to the Public Editor [i.e., ombudsman] @ the NYT and suggested that he revisit the story of the Times’ knowledge of the NSA [spying] program before the 2004 election, and decision NOT to report it until after the election.
I suggested that had the story been reported “in real time,” the hospital room confrontation — which occurred in March 2004 — might have come to light.
Just sayin’.
We’ll see if there’s any response.
Boston1775 @ 93
if rubber stamp signatures are okeedokee on top spy program documents, we’re more than screwed.
Jonathan @ 95
Rove uses a blackberry?
Boston1775 @ 78
Okay, then maybe my thoughts on this are not so far out of line – our Mary does not miss much.
I’ve been wondering if “other intelligence activities” did not include domestic use of torture – this would most certainly be something they would go to any lengths to cover up. And by torture I mean things that are even worse than the business-as-usual gross mistreatment that already goes on in American prisons. I’ve just had a sense that there was something really, really awful underneath all that obfuscation and lying.
I’d be happy to be told I am wrong.
Helen @ 94
Helen, IMHO, Whitehouse is saving that. My sense is he knew exactly what he was doing to Gonzales. That whole voting thing – Leahy leaves, Whitehouse runs in – was planned in my opinion to completely throw Gonzales and his friends behind them off their game.
mauimom @ 96
Did you ask why the NYT editorial states, as though everyone already knew it, and without telling us how they know, that it was Cheney who sent Gonzales and Card to
mugvisit Ashcroft.More Norman Ornstein.
Nothing directly verifiable, as far as I know. But given the indirect evidence, it’s hard to come to any other conclusion.
I mean, how else could one explain the facts that someone like Cheney is Vice President and someone like Rove has a important job at the White House?
hmm… Cheney will be on Larry King tomorrow (I think)
Any one else notice that the Yearly Kos, Daily Kos and other blogs are being painted by the MSM as the far left. This is the same type of hype that the MSM used to paint any reports about the anti-invasion efforts. Middle America was out on the streets before the invasion just as the center will be represented at Yearly Kos.
The media (including the Diane Rehm show and Chris Matthews) keep asking “where is the outrage”. Yet before the invasion these same media folks were not out on the streets to witness that millions of middle americans were out protesting the potential invasion. Where were you Chris and Diane?
Wonder if Matthews, Diane Rehm will come to see that middle America will be at the Yearly Kos, and not just those on the left. The center will be well represented just as they were at the anti-invasion marches.
Will Chris Matthews be there? Or will he go along with the rest of the MSM and continue to spin this conference as the “left” Will Diane Rehm do a show on the Yearly Kos conference?
OldCoastie @ 104
And Larry will spend the whole time asking him about his heart operation and how’s the new grandchild doing.
Gunga Djinn @ 91
You forgot: Reporters.
Scarecrow @ 10
I just emailed Leahey telling him he should insist that former members of the “Gang of 8″ be allowed to attend this meeting to see if the version Specter is told about is the same as the one that they had objections to. And the group should also include those members of the new “Gang of 8″ that have not YET been briefed.
This seems reasonable…and it will allow all the members to hear the concerns and questions of other members, and hear the WH responses. Much better for “advise and consent” than having six or seven different briefings.
Why would the WH object unless they were going to shape things for different Senators!JGabriel @ 6
Maybe this is apocryphal, but someone mentioned earlier that CIA Director George Tenet once was asked in a Congressional hearing about the whether there was a proponderance of evidence that there were WMD’s in Iraq. He apparently paused, leaned back to consult with someone in the row behind him, and then turned back to the Congressman who asked and said “In the declassified version, YES”.
Maybe there is a direct parallel in this case. There’s a version that Bush “revealed” and another program that wasn’t revealed. That is the one that Marcy is discussing…the illegal data-mining one…the one that required the Sr. DOJ official to approve…but was then approved without that signature (apparently by Bush…unless HE authorized Cheney to do so).
Christy has a new thread ready.
After the Foley mess erupted, it was reported that he didn’t even want to run for another term. But, he said, Karl Rove told him that he must. I’ll go check for more.
OldCoastie @ 104
And he’ll announce his new, improved cyber-implants are working wonderfully. So wonderfully that he is now officially tossing his hat in the ring to run for the GOP Prez nomination.
His cyber-parts, with more to be added every year (with free virus protection!), will enable him to be stronger and scarier at the end of an interminable term (the length of which dependent upon how long he decides to keep a “state of emergency” in force) than at the beginning!
Morning, gang. Fresh thready goodness, up and running for anyone who wants it…
And Marcy has a new post at TNH that suggests Rockefeller was briefed on the data mining just before Congress moved to ban it in the form of the Total Information Awareness (TIA) program. Ties into why he wrote his secret letter to Cheney expressing his concerns back in mid 2003.
Scarecrow, do you know more about signing statements – my question at 89?
Caught a bit of the Diane Rhem show on NPR this a.m.. Susan Paige, substitute host, had Norm Ornstein and Stuart Tayloy. What I heard they seemed to be saying that the investigations are hurting the Democratics in Congress. Did anyone hear differently?
Fern @ 99
You’re probably wrong. Not because the administration hasn’t used and approved of domestic torture, but because they haven’t been very good at covering it up — think of Padilla, John Walker Lindh, et. al.
Whatever was going on here, the administration took more pains to keep it covered than they did even for domestic torture. That should give you a clue as to how bad it must be.
Tunnelvision @ 13
Another possibility. Who was doing data-mining BEFORE 9/11? Remember that group under General Peter Shoomaker? The Able Danger group that was dissolved soon after “Shoe” retired. But…but…Shoomaker was brought back into the Pentagon under Rumsfeld.
Given what we know now…that this administration has utterly no regard for the legal niceties that they asserted caused the Able Danger group to be unable to detect Al Qaida groups domestically…
It seems most likely that Able Danger wasn’t “shut down” at all. It was modified and transformed. It may have still remained within the umbrella of military intelligence…or privatized.
Don’t want to get toooo tin-foil hatty…but Zelikow (remember him) was the one that shut down the testimony of the Able Danger group from the 9/11 Commission. The Pentagon destroyed the career of Col. Shaeffer to shut him up. Stripped everyone involved of their security clearances to prevent them from getting the evidence about AD. His wonderful old boss, General “Shoe” was the head of the Joint Chiefs…yet allowed this because Shaeffer was “blabbing”. Perhaps all of this “blackout”.
The right-wing was barking up the wrong tree, as I have pointed out when this was a common right-wing meme. Look at who “closed down” the AD investigation and shut Rep. Curt Weldon up. The PENTAGON (not the CIA) called a special briefing for the SSIC and HIC to discuss “classified material”…for a defunct program that supposedly didn’t produce any valuable information????
It sounds as if there was an “Able Danger 2.0″…that the Administration didn’t want the public and most of Congress to learn about…and that totally ignored the domestic vs. foreign intelligence gathering restrictions.
I ask the question about American citizens being tortured/illegally mistreated because I know of two American citizens who disappeared.
Because they had lived in our area for many years and were well known by the religious community, a coalition of religious and socially active people protested in many ways until these people were set free.
These Arab Americans were not allowed counsel, not allowed to call their families, not allowed to see their families. Fortunately for them, people objected and they are free.
Tunnelvision @ 13
Another possibility. Who was doing data-mining BEFORE 9/11? Remember that group under General Peter Shoomaker? The Able Danger group that was dissolved soon after “Shoe” retired. But…but…Shoomaker was brought back into the Pentagon under Rumsfeld.
Given what we know now…that this administration has utterly no regard for the legal niceties that they asserted caused the Able Danger group to be unable to detect Al Qaida groups domestically…
It seems most likely that Able Danger wasn’t “shut down” at all. It was modified and transformed. It may have still remained within the umbrella of military intelligence…or privatized.
Don’t want to get toooo tin-foil hatty…but Zelikow (remember him) was the one that shut down the testimony of the Able Danger group from the 9/11 Commission. The Pentagon destroyed the career of Col. Shaeffer to shut him up. Stripped everyone involved of their security clearances to prevent them from getting the evidence about AD. His wonderful old boss, General “Shoe” was the head of the Joint Chiefs…yet allowed this because Shaeffer was “blabbing”. Perhaps all of this “blackout”.
The right-wing was barking up the wrong tree, as I have pointed out when this was a common right-wing meme. Look at who “closed down” the AD investigation and shut Rep. Curt Weldon up. The PENTAGON (not the CIA) called a special briefing for the SSIC and HIC to discuss “classified material”…for a defunct program that supposedly didn’t produce any valuable information????
It sounds as if there was an “Able Danger 2.0″…that the Administration didn’t want the public and most of Congress to learn about…and that totally ignored the domestic vs. foreign intelligence gathering restrictions.
And data mining would allow quite specific targetting for caging. The could determine quite quickly who was donating to or verbally supporting Democratic candidates…and even more interestingly, they could learn when that person was away on a trip……sending a registered letter to be delivered that particular day.
If it was never picked up the cagers could then use the document to challenge the registration.
DMoore @ 58
Hopefully more like Carl Bernstein ;-)
There’s a John La Carre novel about how the MI^ Director discovered a KGB plot because the “mole” inside British Intelligence (Smiley’s predecessor) removed documents and records to cover up the espionage activities of the KGB. Essentially records that would have successfully revealed covert operations by the Soviets were purged before they could be analyzed.
But this situation is a tad different, since the users of the data want the data to remain in the system. They just want a copy…a download.
They don’t want to leave a detectable trail of missing information.
Mad Dogs @ 56
Amdocs and Comverse Infosy had access “most” Telephone companies records. Any other countries have access to this data mining. What about that “alleged” back door?
cinnamonape @ 117
I have posted frequently about Dr. Evil Zelikow. He is probably still working behind the scenes. He covered up the actual events of 9-11. Also Condi Rice sent him over to Iraq several times, presumably to continue the genocide. He specializes in Government deception. Zelikow was PNAC before PNAC was cool.
=========
November-December 1998 issue of Foreign Affairs, he co-authored an article entitled “Catastrophic Terrorism,” in which he speculated that if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, “the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it….The United States might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either future terrorist attacks or U.S. counterattacks.
Boston1775 @ 118
If you go to the link given by TheraP at 46 and read an anonymous source in the comments, you will see this:
SUMMARY
Mueller appears to be referring to a sub-contracted effort which indirectly supports the NSC with a special domestic security unit. These units engage in direct engagement with state-side personnel and civilians. Contractors, law enforcement, and intelligence personnel are assigned under non-direct-NSC-NSA units, but are hidden inside commercial entities. The groups appear capable of moving quickly, with no direct supervision, but act as internal security forces, completely outside FISA oversight. They appear to be entities unrelated to FISA, but are front line units which verify information, gather intelligence domestically, and help NSC pinpoint targets which NSC contractors are assigned.
RECOMMENDATIONS
A. Congress examine the Operation Falcon; determine which NSA/NSC personnel were assigned to oversee.
B. Examine the budget lines inside the DOD foreign entities support accounts; and determine which banks are used to challenge those funds. Determine how the DOD funds are funnelled overseas through the NSC entities, then back to the US to these individual groups.
C. Review the “investigative leads” and ground rules JTTF and local law enforcement use to dissuade detection of the domestic intelligence gathering efforts.
D. Review the destruction logs of the CIFA; and determine who was supposed to keep the logs related to these classified documents.
Determine which signalling systems, monitoring, and other intelligence gathering the JTTF are using; and where this information is sent. Ultimately, it winds up somewhere: Which contractors, NSC staffers have access to these reports.
E. Examine with Congressional Counsel whether it is the intent that these domestic security services operate this way; and whether, as FISA is written, this type of activity would fall outside what the FISA Court can engage.
F. Review the DHS domestic interrogation facilities. Look at the gas mileage for the DHS pick up teams. Review the files they’ve had access to; and the basis for detaining someone. Review the complaints of citizens being forcibly removed from their cars, engines running, or being taken from their homes while school children are present in the early morning. Evidence includes car impound fees.
G. Discuss with POST and local LE efforts used to dissuade public awareness of intelligence gathering: Excuses given to hide pre-textual stops; and examine whether local officials do or do not keep adequate records related to officer complaints and requests for civilian oversight to examine officer misconduct.
H. Examine problems during audits: To what extent officers in LE, FBI, and DHS are concerned when reports of officer misconduct arise; and what methods auditors are aware to segregate complaints about officer misconduct from auditors:
1. Have they been asked to leave the room; were concerns explained away; were officers complaining they were “short manned” an unable to supervise; and how do these explanations square with the officer conduct.
2. How often are these units employed to provoke innocent civilians to respond to abuse?
3. To what extent are these domestic units used to harass civilians based on a “hunch”?
4. Would these units put the children of minors at risk to entrap a suspected target?
5. Is there no report of any of these personnel ever exposing a minor to a potentially unsafe situation to engage a target?
6. Has the FISA court, Congress, and Judiciary been fully apprised of how these units operate; their procedures; and oversight requirement to ensure 42 USC 1983 claims are minimized?
7. What insurance do these units have if they are engaged in liable action?
Posted by:
Date: July 27, 2007 5:37 PM
I’m here late and I missed the discussion but I do want to point out for the politicians that go through this blog at the end of the day;
we need to start saying things like “I don’t want some criminal appointee to be able to steal our information, nor steal our trade sectets nor do I want them looking up my wifes dress and following my kids around “
this is much more effective then “illegal spying”
Hi Perris, I’m later than you so I guess I get to clean up after this wild party!
I want to go back and read everyone’s comments thoroughly, but I did get a whiff of Sunday TH memes and shake my head vigorously.
Even if (big if) one can take Gonzo at his word (cough, cough) he is AT BEST an incompetent worthless AG. And looking at the state of the DOJ is enough evidence to get rid of him.
Good grief, when did top US Govt. appointments get reduced to simple perks for rich boys and their friends?
If anyone is reading this, thank you!
Why were (are) you spying on us Chimpenfeurher? Don’t like dissent or something?
TheraP @ 15
So should both Philbin and Addington be sent subpoena’s ?
Pretty late here, but I put some PPT slides together yesterday and posted them on my blog, as a Kos diary, as a Flickr set, and here on Slideshare.
My premise is that Powerpoint is the required means of communication, even though reducing arguments to bullet points in many cases is ridiculous. But in the case of the Bush Administration, our current stenography press corps actually needs to have the lies and deceptions of BushCo bulleted out for them in very simple terms.
So that’s what I’ve tried to do. The slides are downloadable on SlideShare and I’m open to any suggestions to change them. If folks like ‘em (they seem to on Kos) I may do more for other basic issues that the stenography corps can’t seem to grasp.
TheraP @ 15
Whoever anonymous is, he or she really seems to be onto something.
I don’t have time to read this or all the TPM comments. Someone must have noticed that it was Cunningham or his friends who had a contract with (I believe) the office of the VP (!) to do something that turned out to be data mining. The contract was changed or turned over to someone else, I don’t recall (!) all the details. If Lam was about to make that connection, or newspaper reporters were,we would have had the major scandal before the 2006 elections. Or earlier? I believe the dot is waiting to connect – someone get on it!
Richard Nixon had his secret CREEP million-dollar slush fund for special reelection activities like breaking into Watergate.
George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have their own secret slush fund, one filled with billions of dollars of taxpayer money, contained within the yearly-allocated “black budget” for U.S. intelligence activities.
Who really knows exactly what Bush and Cheney have been doing with taxpayer money contained within this huge intelligence “piggy bank”?
Paying for the secret rendition of al Qaeda suspects to secret, overseas CIA-run prisons, where they were tortured…secretly?
Paying for privately-owned crony-Republican data-mining companies to sweep up massive amounts of private information on U.S. taxpayers?
And who knows what else. It’s all being done in secret. Even our representatives in Congress don’t have a clue what Bush and Cheney have really been doing with money Congress appropriated for this huge U.S. intelligence “black budget” slush fund. Ssssh. It’s a secret. Classified. No one has a “need to know” except Bush and Cheney. And they aren’t talking.