In response to the Atrios bit on Rove’s empty idiocy, Rayne had this excellent observation:
Heh. Remember the slides White House aide Scott Jennings provided to Lurita “Cookies” Doan at the GSA for one of those so-called “informative” sessions on how the GSA could help “our” Republican candidates in 2006?
The slide show conveyed the same gist that Rove is still selling today; the presentation showed that in districts where the Republican member of Congress was dogged by scandal, the voters moved for Dems. And Rover is STILL pushing this line across the party, even after we’ve all of us seen it during hearings before the House…
In other words, Rove’s got NOTHING. He’s trying to sell his own party and he’s not doing it. He can’t deliver.
Worse, we know from the Abramoff scandal that there were at least 60 members of Congress implicated; what happens if we impeach Gonzo, actually press for more and deeper investigations into the Abramoff connections, and we find those 60 members??
There won’t be any Republican left who can run from the corruption of the Beltway, because they are the corruption.
There is no daylight between the Republican Party and the Culture of Corruption, and it’s about time that real conservatives snapped out of their somnambulistic torpor, wiped up the mess and started over.
Snake oil on empty. Pass the quail wings.
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hmm
FDL!
Dick Cheney Controls Tim Russert
I’ll pass on the quail wings–a sop to the lackey pressers outside the house, weren’t they?
And that’s why the king will be declaring martial law in the next few months. It’ll fix everything. For him. Remember “the permenent Republican Majority.” Rover said that.
Some seem to be burrowing into agency’s as career employees, to get away from the bright political light, or so it seems.
He never graduated from Texas, and neither did his boss (but Clinton graduated from Arkansas)….
Since Rove is still claiming Iraq isn’t the problem, the WH is obviously not planning to get out. Ever.
what is there left to sell?
On Abramoff scandal: For once I am happy that the Rethugs insisted on removing the Dems from the larger lobbying food train. Otherwise there would have been many more dems involved.
The only thing Rove ever had going for him was the sycophantic adulation of the “Old Media” and their pandering profiles in self-debasement.
He was truly a “Legend in His Own Mind” and the Media Elite bought what they sold each other about his political acumen.
Now that most of the country sees that the Boy King has no clothes, they’re noticing that neither does the Regent, and that both seemed to think that their mutual nakeditity (sorry, Radar O’Reilly) was not just cool, but the height of Haute Couture for the Kewl Kidz.
The Bloom is Off the Rove.
Soon, even the Republicans may realize what Rove has wrought. I am pleased.
Laura Doty @ 4
Quail wings from a guy who wouldn’t know which end of the shotgun to point. How many of those little suckers do you have to plug to make a decent quail wing entree, I wonder…
That photo takes me back, CHS. My uncle had a stuffed rattler in his den on a pedestal that was really similar.
As a kid the stuffed bobcat in the corner always scared me worse, though ;-)
Wow, it’s got to be like talking to a thousand Margaret Spellings at once. Most Air Forces can’t get that many shootdowns at one time.
I agree that Rove The Wonder Dog is done; but…..
There truly is no such thing as ‘true conservative’ only a shambling army of brain-dead who are united by several overarching ‘principles’….
One, the citizenry are gullible fools easily manipulated….see Goebbels.
Two, the government’s highest and best function is the uber-rich get richer at the expense of all other classes.
The Military Industrial Complex is a handy-dandy tool to loot the U.S. Treasury.
That’s why they continue to worship at the feet of The Colossus of the CodPiece
And why our most important task is to show the American people just who these ‘true conservative’ are and what they really intend for our nation.
Just saw the “60 Minutes” piece on the presecription drug bill. It was clear that the corruption is so pervasive, they don’t even care.
Former Rep. and now drug lobbyist Billy Tauzin (and his $2mil) salary was simply odious.It’s the very much the “as long as I get mine” script(even if the gains are ill gotten.)
I knew about his leaving after the bill was passed — did not know about the large number of Hill staffers who also exited directly into Pharma lobbying.
The only thing that was missing from the piece was how the Gringrich/DeLay cabal twisted the rules to make this all possible.
Jane (nyc) @ 16
Any chance that report will result in protest? Or change?
cynic @ 5
Ha. If he’d wanted to do it, the window was 2 years ago. Now the military’s over there (and sick of it), and top levels of his admin have enormous holes in them that he can’t fill.
The prez and the PM:
Bush drove the two of them away in a golf cart after doing a playful 360-degree maneuver in front of the gathered media. The two were off for a private dinner.
CAMP DAVID, Md. – President Bush, starting a new relationship late in his presidency, welcomed British Prime Minister Gordon Brown on Sunday with casual diplomacy.
Good grief — and now it’s counterfeit prescription drugs on “Dateline NBC”.
There seems to be insufficient money to satisfy the crooks around us.
The impression here is that Mr. Rove is the real target of the Democrats relative to the Gonzales mess.
Jo Fish @ 11–
What Rove has going for him is ruthlessness and a complete disregard for the truth.
Rove blaming Congressmen for Abramoff is laughable. Abramoff was an RNC creation and the RNC was controlled by the White House. The Abramoff machine was designed to keep Republican Congressmen under the thumb of the Administration.
Is this Rove’s way of subtly threatening Republican members of Congress? Wasn’t this story filtered through Novak, of all people?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 21
Rove then Cheney then Bush? Please?
I agree that Rove has lost his screwball [truth be told he never had a fastball], but you can be sure they have someone warming up in the pen with a nasty spitter.
There’s not enough snake oil in the world to cure a bad case of politicized, targeted domestic spying without warrants.
The potential for abuse is too frightening for Dems and Repubs alike.
Let’s see what the week ahead holds…
christy, this is a great post for a number of reasons, the first being how consise.
but the real genous of this post is the brutal reality that republicans have to face;
they will loose just about every seat unless they reclaim their party
now that’s a big “unless” because one of the things rove managed to do is get the republicans “addicted” to “the base”
they are so addicted to their base they’re afraid to upset them
they don’t want to upset the theorats because they think the theocrats are gonna abandon them
but wait a minute…who will the theocrats turn to if the republicans disown them, the democrats?
of course not, the democrats are anit theocrat
what I’m saying is republicans get a pass from the theocrats, they’re not turning to the democrats, they’ll vote republican or they won’t vote, so with no doubt the real republicans can abandon the theocrats and not get hurt.
they have to realize this if they want to remain in power…just as the democrats faced extinction if it were not for rove, the republicans face extinction unless they throw rove, the president and the theocrats under the bus
that is the only thing they can do
now, how can they do it and still look like good concervatives?
this is simple;
the president has ruined the armed branches of our government and given defense dollars to a pivate corporation (blackwater)
the real republicans can use that info to demonstrate the president is not a republican he’s a fascist
the president has grown government exponetially…the real republicans can use that to demonstrate he’s not a republican he’s a fascist
the president took the greatest surplus in history and turned it into the largest deficit in the universe…the real republicans can use that to prove he is not a republican he’s a fascist
the president ignored his military generals and ran the war according to his personal agenda, they can use that to prove this administration is not republican it is fascist
the president invaded our privacy…this was once a cornerestone of concervatism and the real republicans can point to that as well
he’s raised real taxes on the majority of Americans and they can use that to dmeonstrate he is not a republican
it will be a SNAP to reclaim their party and it’s their only hope of remaining in office
let me say one thing again because I haven’t said it in a long time;
the democrats can win some republicans and they CAN get an impeachment
democrats have to face the fact that they need to deal, the world cannot wait, America cannot wait.
every single day these guys get cornered they become more and more brazen and there is not all that much time left
once the adminstration realizes all is lost, they will pull out the plug and teh floodgates will be released.
they will steal wahtever they can steal at any price when they realize they have lost all they can loose
we have got to deal
we offer uncontested elections, we offer pork and we get the madmen out of office
A song comes to mind.
Enjoyed hearing you on the Sam Seder Show, Christy!
The only thing I wish I heard was the word “Occupation” when referring to Iraq. The “War” was over in May 2003 with the infamous words: Mission Accomplished!
I truely wish everyone would realize that the occupation by our military will never succeed. As discussed on the show, we need to start a withdrawal of forces. I suggest cutting the funding for contractors as a first step.
radiofreewill @ 25
Are there any bets going yet on who shows up for the SJC hearing Thurs. or not, & the reasons why not?
Yep…never thought I’d see someone worse than Lee Atwater. Rove was in training during that time and I’m certain there are legions of true believers to follow him.
The other night Bill Moyers was so disgusted by the College Young Republican tape, he could hardly speak.
Please keep this up. Our Tx Senators are amazingly silent. Sen. Hutchison was the breck girl who said while campaigning she wanted a modest foreign policy, just like the Candidate, dontcha know. She called the Plame obstruction etc. a technicality. Cornyn is a big, vocal advocate (editorials, etc.) for sunshine in government, but, I think, I have not heard a word about disclosure, accountability, ain’t it a shame about politicizing the DOJ. When I wrote to Sen Kay about that issue, she wrote back to tell me those people serve at the pleasure of the Pres., thank you very much. I guess serving means doing whatever he says to do. Thank you for the work and so much information.
Marie Roget @ 29
Rover is supposed to appear? I bet he won’t show up.
Ghostman
Eureka Springs @ 27
Absolutely perfectomundo.
WITH proviso that Bush may be a King Snake, but certainly not a kingsnake, a prince among reptiles.
undecided @ 22
Click. I think you’re on to something.
If the DOJ is stalling the investigations into JackGate getting gonzo out and putting a real honest person in there might result in these fellas ending up in jail. So it appears that they are willing to suffer the fool because he is not pushing the investigation.
I don’t know if this is tin foil stuff, but it seams that they work by doing shit and holding some threat on someone else… blackmail corruption, hush hush don’t tell.
When the people see how this type of government behaves it makes them even more cynical and depressed than before. It makes everyone simply retreat and go for themselves. That IS the american way… Me first.. ME ME ME.
Michael Moore siad it nicely… our problem is that we are a ME society and not a WE society.
I just corrected it upstairs, Ghostman, it’s Thurs., I believe. Rove & Jennings supposed to be there…
This is not too off topic, maybe it’s a more or less related topic (MOLRT).
There is certainly probable cause to suspect that the WH and the AG have been obstructing justice. (OK, IMO it’s obviouis, but I am doing my daily backbends right now.)
Then there is this, which folks have probably seen in TPM: new DOJ manual on prosecuting election fraud that turns all the recent DOJ voter fraud hijinks and selective prosecutions into official DOJ SOP. Think they are finished trying steal elections? Think again. 2008 will be beaut. Holding a filibuster proof Senate will ba priority. A holding action until 2010. Then they can cry about *four* years of incompetent do nothing Democratic Congresses.
New DoJ Manual Adopts Administration’s Voter Fraud Focus
By Paul Kiel – July 27, 2007, 1:50 PM
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003801.php
(I don’t like the title, I think the wording should be ‘very slectively prosecuted trivial voter fraud or honest mistakes that can be trumped up somehow into a federal crime’)
Then there is the obivous tie of the US Attny firings into the obstructing investigations into corrupt GOP Congresspeople.
And of course, the issue of what illegal activities Cheney/dub and the AG are trying to hide about what the DOJ official were ready to resign over.
But the public discussion is focused on technical gotcha’s on the AG’s obvious evasions and refusal to submit to Congressional oversight. Even Feingold seemed to get caught up in whether there is a ’smoking gun’ on Fox with Chris Wallace today.
Impeachment is somewhat analagous to a indictment, is it not? If you survive an trial following impeachment, you go back to work. Isn’t that what Samuel Chase did? (He should have been removed -too bad that early Congress choked). Anyway, since when does a ’smoking gun.’
Since when do you need a ’smoking gun’ to perform necessary Congressional oversight?
How can blogs, and polticians communicate the big picture here? In simple language that will connect with the voters?
Ghostman @ 32
under normal circumstances I’d agree but I am given some pause;
rove thinks he is a genous, he thinks he can outsmart leahey, he thinks he can outsmart any democrat
wheather or not that’s true, the president thinks rove is and that’s roves image
rove might be forces to appear just for his own reputation
if that’s true then we have to hope leahey will trip rove up…which I think is likely and that’s what we are hoping for
rove a victim of his image and reputation
Hmmmmmmmm……so he’s not a genuis. Who knew?*
_____________________________________
* Yeah, I did. But I won’t repost that portion of my ouevre.
For GOP, I gues that should be ‘filibuster ready Senate’ Or soemthing. Hope you get the drift.
C-Span2’s Booktv is running an earlier lecture hosted by the American Library Assn. featuring Garrison Keillor!!!
And Gonzo’s corrections are due by Friday, too.
I think we’ll see more detail in the press on the hospital visit, the data-mining and what a possible special prosecutor would look like.
Also, Specter is being specially briefed tomorrow on ‘the program’ and is supposed to announce whether he supports Gonzo’s version of ‘no disagreements’ or not.
Jane (nyc) @ 30
And I bet he didn’t even know about this.
Hurray for Rayne! Girl has a way with words, hasn’t she?
SanderO @ 35
A great observation. And one I think is relevant to all the threads this afternoon. To detach from our own needs and feelings of the moment, and consider the big picture. That’s hard to do; but necessary, if we’re dedicated to accurately naming problems–and striving to right them.
Detachment helps with despair, too. (I can feel hopeless then, and still fight. Because even the sense of hopelessness with pass. But I have no time to waste waiting for that.)
GordonM @ 43
Saw that the other day linked from Matt Yglesias….needed some brain bleach. Used to live in DC during the Carter years. Talk about a change in cultural mores!
radiofreewill @ 42
(bold added)
Why isn’t Leahy or a Senator formerly briefed sitting in on this for additional continuity/scrutiny?
Arlen spells trouble, nothing else imo.
Any Democratic Congressman, like my own Ed Markey, who views impeachment of Bush, Cheney, or Gonzales as “unproductive” has missed the big picture.
Ed, you’ve been great on the small stuff, but this is the core of our Constitution. You run unopposed year after year — you’ll never be punished for voting to impeach Gonzales. Why won’t you do it? The Constitution is more important than all of your many fine but lesser issues.
Even if Rove’s boy declares martial law, Rove needs a new gravy train sooner or later. Also consider…
It is becoming more than a tinfoil hat claim that THE MATH included caging and other illegal methods of political vote manipulation.
…so perhaps in addition to a gray train, Rove also needs someone to provide cover. Either that, or he might be a long term guest in Bush’s Paraguay enclave. All speculation on my part, however.
rove a victim of his image and reputation
Rove’s image is and always will be damaged by the failure of his “math” to pan out in ‘06. He’ll try a few hail Mary passes to get it back and Bush will stick with him, but Karl Rove is history.
So, what if ‘corrects’? His corrections won’t improve a damn thing. They will just be an excuse to provide cover for spinning hyper technical justifications for not, very very strictly speaking, if you give enough benefit of the doubt to choke a whale, that he maybe he didn’t really perjure himself, or lie to Congress, or whatever covers his lying.
Nothing will happen that will change the fact that there is obstruction of Congressional oversight, reason to believe the President is sheltering a person to cover up very unethical and very probably lotta illegal actions that probably involve either VP or Pres, and probably obstruction of justice re serious crimes. And that is what impeachment is for.
Not enough votes for impeachment? Speaker bottles it up? Then I hope some Representative can start a Congressional trial for inherent contempt, with Rove Meiers and the AG on the dock. TV would have to it, I think.
Eureka Springs @ 47
Richmond @ 10
Yes, a classic case of “be careful what you wish for.” The Republicans got their wish of an all Republican K street. How do you like it now, Bugman?
BigMitch @ 53
I never ever thought of it that way, great point big mitch
BHatten @ 31
It is disheartening to live in Texas with our two senators. I got the same response from Hutchison when I wrote her. As for Cornyn, I think he has given up even trying to respond to me. My last letter I asked him why he cannot show up at the SJC hearings and do what is right.
I believe there were some previous allegations that Cornyn was connected somehow to Abramoff. He has garnered quite a bit of opposition (albeit Democrats) for next year’s election — but they are already campaigning.
I have to doubt that he will be going back to DC. As for Kay Bailey, we are stuck with her for four more years.
I hope Bugman and Rove are both history. Rove couldn’t even get a date with Margaret Spellings. The scary part is that there were almost enough people to elect this machine twice. Karen Hughes has been so quiet lately; I am wondering if she finally almost caught on.
GordonM @ 34
Me too.
Lahoma just got back from shopping. There goes the budget. If truth were told, I’m just as bad. She had lunch with a girl friend and says they discussed politics. So naturally, I ask her was anything decided? She says yes. “We think the Democrats know what they are doing.” I say… do you want to let me in on how you guys came to this. “Maybe later” she tells me.
Marcy’s hot on the data mining:
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c……html#more
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
:) !
The thing is, the republics know all about the corruption. They just don’t give a rats ass because if they stood up against it they would lose power. To the republics it’s all about the power.
We got more eggs than chickens. If you saw MTP this a.m. you saw some polling data that said the Hillary would have a tight race against Giuliani, and they are both presently the leading contender in their respective parties.
That’s scary shit.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 39
Ante up.
Speaking of Abramoff; why hasn’t Ralph Reed been charged with anything?
Loo Hoo, please sent your email address to mitch at gci dot com.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
Trial Tampering by Rove and Gonzales.
karen jacobs @ 28
It was never a war, it was an invasion, it was a preemptive attack by a rogue nation–ours–on a sovereign nation that offered no peril. There is no “War On Terror. It is impossible to wage physical, military war on an IDEA.
We MUST stop all mention of “war” unless it is to describe the US government’s illegal and unethical assault on the environment, the United Nations, the network of treaties and agreements that keep us (us being not just US) from obliterating any who oppose.
/Hypatia’s rant.
OKK, I think you and Lahoma (short for Oklahoma?) should plan a wedding for YK3.
The other thing on Sam Seder that was interesting to hear was T I L L M A N
The neocons remain extremely influencial and active within the Republican Party. This is evident from the GOP candidates for president. No matter who wins in 2008 the neocons will be insidious.
BigMitch @ 69
Mitch, missed the program. How much did they cover?
Jane (nyc) @ 71
If I am remembering correctly …. and now I am not so sure. (It may have been on a show we have here, called the Talk Show Count-Down, which counts down the top stories on talk radio.)
I think a caller talked about it quite extensively, and brought up the point that the death was very suspicious, and the cover-up was worse. And Sam S. said IIRC that there was going to be much more on this next week.
By the way, ESPN.com has a lot on the T I L L M A N story.
See ya, guys and gals. I’m off for a bit.
Loo Hoo. @ 68
That’s nice. Her full name is Lahoma Marie Lakota. She’s full Cherokee (I’m a half breed). Born in Oklahoma, as was I. ;O)
BigMitch @ 73
THAT is key! That’s the audience that may not be angry at Bush yet, but they will be when they hear these details.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
You know why you love her, don’t you? She does OKK better than OKK.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ment-80602
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-311227
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-456283
Hey. You loo hoo asked.
Can a medical doctor, upon looking at a bullet wound, determine that the bullet came from a weapon 30 feet away? 60 feet? 160 feet? 900 feet?
Ghostman
Big Mitch yhm.
Betsy, my response doesn’t want to go through, but yes, I have a special new camera!
BigMitch @ 72
Pass the popcorn! The chickens are comin’ home to roost! Abu has till Friday! Next Monday should be as action packed as the new week comin’ up!!!
Ghostman @ 79
They can on CSI, Bones, etc.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
And what’s happening with DeLay, Pombo, Lewis, and Foley. ‘The Culture of Corruption’ meme is getting forgotten because of this avalanche of scandals.
I almost choked when I saw this headline which popped up on the wires just a few minutes ago:
“XINING, China (Reuters) – U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on Sunday acknowledged high trade tensions with China and said he would start a four-day visit by focusing on an issue with more common ground: the environment.”
Um.. just what type of common ground is that??? That both countries like getting high on the smell of hydrocarbons and melting ice?
TexB @ 82
Well, ok. I just don’t know what the science is on this.
Ghostman
Ghostman @ 79
I think it is a matter of forensics… There is a certain amount of gun powder and trace chemicals that continue to burn for a distance out of the gun barrel. If the weapon is fired, say at 10 yards, some of the powder leaves residue around the wound. At 20 yards, there is less… There may be other ways they can tell, though.
GordonM @ 77
She’ll get a kick out of that. ;0)
TexB @ 76
Not necessarily…especially if you’re trying to reach the hard core 30%.
If your read the places where this story is actually getting play, you hear pity for the poor officers who just wanted to protect poor old Tillman’s reputation, to simple “shit happens, it’s war”, all the way to Tillman was an evil son of a bitch out to get himself and fellow soldiers killed and got what was coming.
Ghostman @ 79
You should ask Taylor Marsh. She or her hubby would know, or would be able to find out.
http://www.taylormarsh.com/
They are the ones who did the excellent Cheney-shoots-old-man-in-the-face-at-very-close-range analysis
solai @ 83
There’s only so many AUSA’s to go around, ya know Turdblossom is not assigning any competent Prosecutors on their cases, Dont’cha think??? ;-)
Ghostman, from what I’ve read it’s the tightness of the shot cluster to his forhead that is telling.
3 shots within inches of each other is what made the medical examiners suspicious….not gunshot residue, etc.
Siun is upstairs.
FYI, new thread
And I can’t leave out this classic.
Still got my EPU powers. Good times, good times.
Well, hmmm. Tightness of shot cluster. But there could’ve been another 3 or more rounds to the left of the head (which flew out into space), and then to the right….hmmm. Taylor Marsh sounds like a good idea. Thanks to all.
Ghostman
Loo Hoo. @ 59
Personally, I think she’s off by an order of magnitude. I think TIA was outsourced. ‘OK guys, gather all you can on everybody – we’ll never ask you how you got the data. Call it demographics research. When the FBI, NSA or RNC calls, you provide them with data – stripped of all sourcing info, of course. In return, we promise to mark it all top secret so nobody else gets a peak. And don’t throw out anything just because the guy seems to be a friendly – you never know when it might come in useful’.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 78
And I particularly like this:
They don’t have a Plan B, never did, and they are going to keep with Plan A until they are either voted out of office or indicted/impeached and convicted, because they were “right” to start the war, and they are still “right” to finish it, regardless of the costs (in anyway).
Are you going to be at Yearly Kos EPU?
Not this year. Perhaps in the future.
Loo Hoo – Don’t miss the comment linked at 94 – it’s my “grand unified theory” of non-genuis.
Maybe there’s an October surprise awaiting us.
Nice ’shoppe work, Kristy. :o)
Crotalus Atrox; grabbin’ a snort.
Or, a refill, by which to help REAL Christians attest to their faith. (The ones mostly out west, or maybe, in Arkansas or Texas. :o) )
Not a bad thread, either.
Sorry about the “K”. I’ll get it right.
alabama @ 7
Bush was passed through Yale, wasn’t let in at the Univ. of Texas law school, but got an MBA from Harvard (Lord have mercy what were they thinking). Later, Bush ruined several businesses and became Governor of Texas by having KKKarl lie about Ann Richards.
Clinton graduated from Georgetown IIRC became a Rhodes Scholar, went to Oxford and then Yale law school (skipping the advanced degree program in Vietnam). Later, Clinton taught Law at the Univ. of Arkansas before becoming Attorney General and then Governor of the state.
*xyz @ 3
and Russert controls Andrea the boob cleavage Mitchell
final sentence should read “their” mess, instead of “the” mess.
C
Wow, now that was fun!! I spend the evening away off the internet and I find I’ve been making trouble anyhow!! ;-)
Glad you liked that one, Christy; I’d like to know what’s going on with Cookies Doan these days, now that we all know she got THE math from Karl via Jennings. Where’s our fast-talking Cookies now?
Eureka Springs @ 47
THAT’s A GREAT IDEA!
Certainly others should be there to see if the “program” they were briefed on IS, IN FACT, the one that Arlen is told about. In addition, I would think that others in the new leadership/interlligence committees should be given the same briefing. Former members of the Gang of 8 should be allowed to attend. They’ve already been cleared and can raise issues of consistency and query whether parts of the program have been “altered”.
Why the WH would oppose a “collective briefing” (besides the fact that they could be caught out setting Arlen up as a sock-puppet, and confusing him further) would pose problems.
Such a collective briefing is the most efficient. All the Gang of 8 would hear the same thing, hear each others comments (no repetition), and hear the clarifying responses.
Arlen should ALSO be in favor of such a collective briefing, and INSIST UPON IT. And the Chair of the Committee should also insist that Arlen act in an honorable and fair manner with fellow members.
Ghostman @ 79
Yes. Within certain degrees of probability. Generally entrance wounds are smaller in diameter the nearer the shot is simply because the muzzle velocity is higher, resulting in a) less compression of the bullet upon entry, and b) less tumbling of the projectile due to air resistance/turbulence.
Higher muzzle velocities also tend to cause greater blowout at the exit wound, though this can sometimes be deceiving as the scalp can hold the stellate fracture in place, or allow it to be folded back over the wound.
In addition, very close range projectiles still carry residues from the firing and these residues (e.g. ignited powder, muzzle gases) can sometimes be found on the margins of the wound or in tissues within. Or on the clothing of the victim (hint..hint).
But there were three entry wounds…within @ 2-3 cm diameter.
That alone would raise serious questions regarding the range the weapon was fired at. Shots from an M-16 would not be expected to have such a tight placement if fired from any but close range, and in burst mode (M-16’s fire at @300/rounds per minute. Even then the compression kick would likely have raised the muzzle unless it was fixed, either from a mount or from gravity.
Despite these difficulties we have to explain the close arrangement of entry wounds, and no others to the skull.
And the target was unlikely to be standing…as falling would create greater “spread”, as would any movement on the ground. Tillman was likely lying down, face up (supine)…which is an inappropriate defensive position. He was shot though the FRONT of his forehead.
This could be established by looking at whether his helmet or uniform had any gravitational pooling of blood on the back, mixed with soil. Or if his helmet had been penetrated by any of the rounds and had superheated soil fragments embedded from kickback as the round hit the soil.
Unfortunately all of Tillman’s gear (uniform, helmet, etc.) was incinerated immediately after the incident destroying critical evidence. Interesting.
Still the pathologists could only come to the conclusions that they did, and recommend an investigation into a non-accidental death by friendly fire…a recommendation strangely overruled by the Pentagon.
AnnieW @ 91
Usually several facts complement one another.
That fact almost leads to the conclusion of near range fire, especially with an M-16. Snipers use other, far more accurate weapons and could do so with an immobile target from much greater ranges. But the projectiles were apparently M-16 rounds.
In addition, any projectile has a degree of “tumble” that occurs when it leaves the barrel. The greater the distance the more tumble. Tumble causes the projectile to distort and flatten, and it slows. When it hits the target it results in a large entrance wound, unless it happens to strike while an “edge” of the tumble enters the target.
Sniper rifles have longer barrels, specialized rifling and other features to reduce this tumble which causes the projectile to deform and “stray” off course.
Ghostman @ 96
Unlikely that three M-16 rounds would coincidentally end up together if fired from a distance. Even under your (or Taylor Marsh’s) scenario the bursts to the right and left would be from a short range.
MarkH @ 104
No Texas politician has ever graduated from that place, Mark H–just look at LBJ, John Connolly, Richard Armey… It’s rather like Chinese footbinding–they’ve been locked in that cage from the day they were born, and have never learned to live with the world at large (Rove is one of their number, as is, rather oddly, the hyper-sophisticated James Baker).
When a real person wins an election in Texas–Anne Richards, for example–he or she is eventually snuffed out by the Texans themselves. This will never change. Nor will Americans, when they feel a need to go native, ever fail to elect Texans to high office: this is an unhealty habit for sure, and will sooner or later bring the nation to its knees, never to rise again.
Tillman’s clothes and gear were incinerated?
Bizarre. Somehow I doubt they do that normally.
Who ordered it? Why?
The trail beckons someone with emptywheel’s tenacity.
It seems like it IS possible that Tillman could have been hit by rounds from multiple guns. This becomes even more plausible given the reports that he was occasionally jumping up from behind cover to wave his arms and scream “Cease fire, I’m Pat Fucking Tillman God Damn It!!”. It is entirely possible that, in trying to get their attention, he got himself targeted by multiple Rangers and made himself an easy enough target for them to land 3 headshots.
Granted, many of the circumstances surrounding the death do appear to be somewhat “suspicious”, but we should NOT forget that this new evidence actually CONFIRMS the narrative that, at the time of Tillmans death, his entire unit was pinned down by a volume of fire sufficient to make another squad mate hug the ground and pray to god. Furthermore, in the middle of this fire Pat Tillman was brave enough to periodically abandon his cover in order to try and signal the unit that was mistakenly firing on them – behavior which INCREASES the chances of his being hit by that incoming fire.
Even given this new medical report and the suspicious behavior (burning his clothes), the fact is that when Tillman got shot he was under a heavy fire and engaging in behavior that put him at a greater risk of being shot (than if he had just hugged the ground and waited). The most likely cause of his death is STILL that he was accidently killed by a friendly unit who mistook him and his men for hostiles. Any murder narrative will not only have to explain why he was shot, but how and why the shooter did so while he himself was pinned down by heavy incoming fire (yeah, it could have been an opportunistic way to cover up the murder, but that would have required some serious cool-under-fire to think that out while, simultaneously, hugging the ground and trying not to get shot himself – one assumes that most people would be so consumed with the larger issue of being targeted themselves that it wouldn’t occur to them to take advantage of the completely unplanned situation to off a squad-mate).