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Joe Klein responds to Glenn Greenwald (sort of), but he also seems to be in touch with the fact that Lieberman has gone off the deep end:
My hope last summer was that Lieberman would respond to the Ned Lamont challenge by returning to the land of the sentient and rethinking his foolish position on the war. He has done the opposite–and I’m grateful to Greenwald for pointing out the utterly disgraceful depths to which Lieberman has fallen. Anyone who trucks with these right-wing fundamentalists who take the Book of Revelation literally is a fool. I mean, Joe, don’t you realize that in the rapture, we Jews get incinerated?
Regular readers of Swampland–and Lieberman’s office, which called me in anger–know that I’ve been hammering Lieberman in recent months for his use of words like “surrender” to describe those of us who want a phased withdrawal of American troops (starting now) and for his witting misrepresentations of counterinsurgency strategy and the facts on the ground in Iraq. His Likudnik extremism has become so egregious that he can only be described as an American embarrassment…and, sad to say, not a very serious person, either.
It’s odd to lump Joe Klein in with Max Blumenthal, but Klein makes explicit why this the weld spot between evangelical Christians and Jews is just so frigging weird. Is everybody in attendance so completely insane they don’t understand how…um…divergently this particular alliance is supposed to end?
The good news: somebody who is in fact considered “serious” realized Lieberman is just plain nuts.
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zunoed?
just missed
Gonna read, sorry. Just occured to me, any word on how Cheney is doing?
Any Democratic candidate that supports Lieberman loses my vote.
LS @ 4
Hillary
Barack
?
Every known Blue Dog
Loo Hoo. @ 3
they changed out all his fluids and gave him a tune up and he’s home now…
Wow. Joke Line went off the reservation…I wonder what he’ll do to “balance” this trip?
That was freaking weird, the Jewish/Christian revival for rapture. I guess I’m getting shock-proof.
Until we all stop being mealy-mouthed and call Joe Lieberman for what he is, a Right Wing Israeli Fundamentalist, there will be no progress. None of them are acting in the US interest, but on behalf of Isreal.
Did I mention today that,
Tillman got shot 3 times in the forehead; presumably with his helmet on?!!!
Did I mention today that,
the Bush Administration won’t turn over documents related to propaganda about it??? Just checking myself.
Loo Hoo. @ 3
Gonna read, sorry. Just occured to me, any word on how Cheney is doing?
My EPU’d response:
I heard that they put his pacemaker battery in backwards – and that he’s now growing younger…
Can anyone explain to me just what Mr. Lieberman’s core principles are? What does this man stand for exactly?
Barry Bonds strikes out in the first inning.
Joe Lieberman may just be the most partisan person I know of..
Eureka Springs @ 5
Pretty much, because if they get elected and they give him a cabinet post, I will….
How does one spell the sound of “implode”?
LS @ 4
Does that include his protege Senator Barrack Obama?
Yep, Ol’ Joey the LiarMan…I jes wanna thank the likes of Joke Line, Hillary, Barrack, Bill, Schumer, Emmanuel and the great citizens of The NutBall State for letting the ‘Last Honest Man’ back into the Senate where he can…..
Pretty much fuck up whatever he wants.
jayt @ 11
My EPU’d response:
I heard that they put his pacemaker battery in backwards – and that he’s now growing younger…
Ha! And a change of fluids and a tune up! Isn’t it strange, though, that there hasn’t been anything? Least not that I’ve heard.
LS, TILLMAN! Yes, you’ve mentioned it, and very wisely. This may be the straw…
If this thread could have a soundtrack I would suggest Wem Wenders- Until The End Of The World.
Does Lieberman support attacking Iran?
How does one spell the sound of “implode”?
PSHSHSHSHSHSHSSOOOWWWW!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 19
LiarMan would support attacking California if we ‘menaced’ the state Joe really represents….
Israel.
I voted for Gore/Lieberman. I know much more about Joe Lieberman now, than I did then.
There’s something lacking in that sentence – I think it has to do with word “serious”
Maybe exchange it with “intelligent”?
“honest”?
“SANE”?
Jane! You keep topping yourself!
Ho Jo: American Embarrassment indeed!
A.Citizen @ 16
Yes it does. Iran/Syria/Lieberman. Yes it will include Barak even though I like him otherwise, because Lieberman supports Bush/Cheney policies, and I refuse to vote for those policies. Any talk of agreement with attacking Iran or Syria and that candidate is history to me. I’ll vote Kucinich.
Eureka Springs @ 5
Including Senator Barbara Boxer I’m sad to say.
Eureka Springs @ 14
—————————————-
you mean…”LIEberman for LIEberman”?
maunga @ 9
Damnit, I always get sucked into defending Lieberman, whom I despise. But he is not a Fundamentalist.
As I said the other day, to OK-Kiddo, if you ever met a Jewish fundamentalist, you would know the difference. Jewish fundamentalists have no desire to assimilate, they distinquish themselves by clothing, language, dress, grooming. They believe in a messianic view of Judaism, and some associate the messianic vision with a particular man, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Shneerson. Many do not recognize the State of Israel, believing that it was founded by men and women, and when the “ingathering” occurs it will be part of the coming of the messiah. The least radical of the “fundamentalists” believe in a concept of Eretz Yisroel, literally, the land of Israel. According to adherents to this radical belief, the land of Israel, from the Jordan to the Meditrerranian is promised to the Jews, and any effort to accomodate Palestinians is against God’s will, and should be treated accordingly.
Why can’t we just call Lieberman what he is — an asshole — without casting it in terms of a false perception of his religious views?
He is not an Israeli, by any definition. That country has its own troubles, and doesn’t need to be burdened with him.
jayt @ 11
My EPU’d response:
I heard that they put his pacemaker battery in backwards – and that he’s now growing younger…
well, at least we know where he’ll end up when he hits babyhood (cue “The Omen” soundtrack)
LS @ 10
LS – I really like your devotion and passion to this issue. It may have lost its entertainment value, but it’s at the core of our democratic experiment. An aside: I can’t say here how I feel about the cover-up. It would get me arrested, or worse.
Liberman’s common cause with the End of Days people, knowing that for them the End Days means the extermination of the Jews, is a horrendous validation of the adage, “Politics makes strange bedfellows.”
The mystery here is why the American Jewish community, both left and right, are not rising in outrage against Joe.
The charitable explanation is that Joe does not take the End Days people seriously, and is playing them for fools. But if that is the case, what does that say about Joe?
He is not an Israeli, by any definition. That country has its own troubles, and doesn’t need to be burdened with him.
I wouldn’t look for Joe to be giving any money back, though.
“It’s odd to lump Joe Klein in with Max Blumenthal, but Klein makes explicit why this the weld spot between evangelical Christians and Jews is just so frigging weird. Is everybody in attendance so completely insane they don’t understand how…um…divergently this particular alliance is supposed to end?”
just goes to show what little regard either group has for the other
eggzactly.
BBC reports that Brown:
Gordon Brown has reaffirmed the UK’s close relationship with the US ahead of talks with President George Bush.
New Foreign Office Minister Lord Malloch Brown previously said the two countries would no longer be “joined at the hip” on foreign policy.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_…..920877.stm
jayt @ 31
Any money back to whom?
BigMitch @ 28
Dahling…you are not defending him. You are saying What It Is.
He’s not a fundamentalist ANYTHING. (sorry for the yelling.)
(whispering, now…) he’s a weenie.
(referring to a thread a few days ago where we chatted about gendered-affected phrases…psst.
he’s got no balls.)
We stand up for what we Truly Believe.
My position on Joe is that we have two options: an iceberg or the scorpion pit.
Jews who are comfortable with the rapture crowd will tell you — usually with a slight chuckle — “Let them believe what they like, as long as they support Israel. And they’re nice people, too.”
It never seems to occur to this segment of the Jewish public that the policies so avidly supported by those christianoid nutcases intent on their own “Rapture” (a 19th-century theory rejected by traditional Christians, BTW) — are policies designed to lead to enormous destruction of Jews, or at the very least, that are completely unconcerned about such an eventuality — policies that are defined as, and believed by some Jews actually to be, “pro-Israel.” Good on Joe Klein for this, sorry it took him so long to get there.
Jonathan @ 29
Thanks Jonathan. Rest assured, I’m not attempting to be entertaining. I’m sickened by the callousness and complete disregard of decency and humanity exhibited daily by members of the Administration. I realize that you understand that too. I won’t let up. I throw torture in there too for good measure. I want them impeached, now.
Rick DeVille @ 37
could we include fire ants with the former?
Loo Hoo. @ 20
I was gonna say KKRRRRRUUUMMMMMPPPPFFFFFTTT!!!
Should jews support Lieberman because he’s jewish?
Should women support Hillary because she’s female?
Should blacks support Barack because he’s black?
History will judge us as to whether the American people, with all their advantages, went with the best ideas.
Jonathan @ 30
Go LS!
and Go Loo Hoo.
They so overplayed their hand on that one.
The people who don’t want to Follow Politics, it’s just Too Much for my (dumbassmind) Will follow this Football Story. Maybe.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
I’ve been on to Lieberman since his support for the Clinton impeachment, but he’s just gone completely crazy now.
Any money back to whom?
The lobbying group which must not be named (at least without **’s)
Loo Hoo. @ 34
Check this out, the website of former UK Ambassador Craig Murray, relieved of his appointment because he protested torture:
http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/
LS @ 40
As long as you keep beating the drum on this issue, I’ll keep pumping adrenalin. Sorry.
Rayne @ 7
I wonder what made Joe finally wakr up. Did he finally just realize what the fundies had in store for the Jews when the rapture comes? Why does he think most still vote Democratic? And won’t go anywhere near the Fundies? It’s taken Klein about a year too long. I guess it is better late than never.
I simply don’t like Mr. Lieberman’s approach to his job. And I particulary don’t like his views on foreign policy. Or his tactics.
Some of us knew this since January, 2006.
To the rest of you – including Hill and Bill and Barack and Chuck and Harry – thanks a shitload for dumping this a**hold back on the United States.
And you all owe Ned Lamont a big apology.
Although I voted for Gore/Lieberman, I began to actively dislike and mistrust Joe during that time because of his decision to carry on a simultaneous campaign for re-election as Senator from Connecticut while supposedly running for VP. Hedging that bet showed a distinct lack of commitment and/or belief in his ticket’s chance of winning the WH.
My dislike of him has only deepened. He is the worst sort of despicable. And by that I mean Daffy Duck despicable.
Jonathan @ 43
No. I have friends who are Jewish, a few of which live in CT. They all think HoJo is a horse’s ass. The ones that lived in CT all voted for Lamont, and I didn’t even have to convince them. A lot of people already caught on to what a schmuck HoJo is.
I know it’s been said before, but RGJoe can go to Zell.
Elliott @ 41
Yes, please.
“The evil that men do lives long after them. The good than men do is oft interred with their bones.”
To those for whom the cause of civil rights is dear, Joe Lieberman is considered to be a steadfast defender.
Joe Liebermans sanctimonious self, was just the tonic to help Al Gore draw a line under the Clinton days, and his support among Florida’s Jews delivered the state to Gore, and thereby the election. Say what you want about how Gore ran his campaign, or who he chose for a running mate, but recall that it worked everywhere except in the SCOTUS.
Israel is a democracy, and America had a special role in her birth. Fidelity to our alliance wtih Israel can’t be all bad.
There are many reasons for being in favor of the war in Iraq. Taking them all together, they are inadequate. But why is it that in the case of Joe Lieberman his support for the war is always characterized only in terms of his support for Israel. Is this fair?
Rick DeVille @ 52
Jonathan @ 47
Pump it Jonathan!!!
I certainly don’t think Mr. Lieberman is any more fundamental in his beliefs than is his president.
BigMitch @ 28
Lieberman works for A*P*C. They all do, including the MSM.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 49
OK, I took your name in vain at #28, above.
And by that I mean Daffy Duck despicable.
Dethpicable!!
I didn’t know much about HoJo either till I began reading the blogs. But I remember his speech criticizing Clinton. At the time I respected him so I just thought that was an odd thing for a dem to do. Now, of course, I know much more and I do believe my disdain for him is as great as it is for the rest of BushCo.
Lieberman: the tool’s tool.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 19
OK, I assume you are just kidding here. In any case:
Please note that Joe uses language that implies that he sees confrontation with Iran as a game — “play by the rules.” Of course, it is Joe who interprets the rules.
LS @ 46
I’d not heard of this person/blog before but here is a partial:
The cruel and rapacious Karimov family strengthen still further their grip on Uzbekistan’s command economy, and continue to siphon off the money of their people. Karimov’s daughter. Gulnara, is the family’s principal bagman. The bulk of the Karimov billions are securely stored in the Swiss branch of Rothschild’s Bank.
Where does Mr. Lieberman stand on the Israeli-Palestinian situation? Some argue that if it was right for England, France and the U.S. to establish a Jewish homland in 1948, then why has it not been right to do the same for the Palestinians?
Lieberman’s policy alliances may have nothing to do with Israel. He suddenly seemed to be owned by the Administration, not Israel. There remain unrevealed mysteries…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
Hi, OKK. I really like your comments. But question: Do you think shrub or HOJO is sincere in what he professes to be his beliefs? In my opinion, these guys are just politicans (like almost all elected individuals). Say what you think will gain votes. Fuck the USA.
Could the citizens of Conn impeach LIEberman?….I know there is no recall provision in Conn, but impeachment….si o no?
Sometimes I have to resist the temptation to take the bait.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
How’s that working for you?
jayt @ 61
Jayt, are you moderating?
’cause my comments at #57 are gone, truncated, vamoosed.
You said what I said.
Just sayin’.
Jonathan @ 68
Perhaps you’re right. ;0)
punaise @ 64
ratchet up.
Is everybody in attendance so completely insane they don’t understand how…um…divergently this particular alliance is supposed to end?
whatever. None of the principals in this alliance actually belive in the superstitious mumbo-jumbo that they’re shovelling onto their supporters. Religion is a sickness of the mind. It is used by the strong to take advantage of the weak. It doesn’t matter whether or not you believe in the New Testament. Jews, Xtianists, Muslims, Bah’a’i, Roman Catholics, it doesn’t make any difference- these are all fairy tales that people tell their children to excuse the injustice in the world… and people who don’t grow out their childhood beliefs are just asking to be taken advantage of. And Lieberman’s adherence to the wingnut born-again talibangelicals is just more evidence that the strong (Lieberman) will use religion as a tool to subjugate the weak (in this case, evangelical xtians waiting for the rapture) just as long as we allow them to do so. It is up to those of us who see the abuse for what it is to take this monster on and destroy it.
Dawkins is right- the species would be better off without religion, period. Full stop. Not without Islam, not without Wahabiism, not without pentacostal Baptism- without ALL of it.
But wait, you say- you’re complaining of a problem, without suggesting a solution! And everyone knows that freedom of religion is enshrined in the Bill of Rights! You can’t possibly suggest we outlaw religion!
And you are right. We can’t outlaw it. But that doesn’t mean we can’t tax the shit out of it until it dies. I think we should implement a 90% income tax on any organization that calls itself a “religion” so that society can afford to repair all of the damage that organized religion does to the world.
Elliott @ 71
You tell me. ;0)
The real horror in this is a very practical and political one. Lieberman knows there won’t be any Armageddon–in the religious sense–so these wackos, in the present, work toward his–and the neo-cons’– aims to use the U.S. to destroy all of Israel’s enemies, real and perceived.
Lieberman’s pandering to these people is inordinately cynical–beyond cynical and into manipulative. He knows they have the ear of some in the White House. He knows they’re wackos, but still hopes they’ll turn the tide of opinion, in and out of the White House, his way.
The great irony here is, of course, that if the religious wackos get their way and there is a great conflagration across the Middle East, the wackos won’t care that Lieberman helped it along–they’ll want millions of Jews killed, too, to fulfill the dispensationalist prophecy based on Revelations that only the 144,000 who repent and convert to Christianity will survive.
Beyond that, the simpering introduction he gave to Santorum at the Wacko Convention (in Max Blumenthal’s video) made me queasy–and I’ve got a pretty tough stomach.
Eureka Springs @ 73
ooo putting the screws to Lieberman
Eureka Springs @ 74
Lieberman is Nurse Ratchet.
From tomorrow’s NYTimes:
Coalition of American Evangelicals Issue Letter in support of Palestinian state. And also express their displeasure that the Rapture crowd is seen as representative of all evangelicals.
tekel @ 75
You must be drinking instead of smoking, because you are off the radar, imho.
LS @ 10
Isn’t the report of a close grouping of three bullets prima facie evidence of a crime. Isn’t the high-fiving about suppressing it prima facie evidence of another crime, and isn’t invoking imperial privilege over all of this prima facie evidence of still another? Law heads? And isn’t there an idle rogue prosecuter out there somewhere? New Orleans? Chicago? Texas? Somewhere?
Max Blumenthal has posted video from that Christians United for Israel convention: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..57826.html
Eureka Springs @ 74
He’s the spanner in the works.
demi @ 72
Nope, not moderating, or even particularly moderate.
But if you said the same thing, may I at least compliment you on being a person of taste and distinction?
Far from the sparkle and fade…
Summerland – Everclear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWxSTV5Y8XM
1. Has Benedict Arnold LiarMan ever expressed outrage over the deaths of the brave men of the Liberty? I doubt it.
2. Always approach the Israeli gov’t with caution. They’ll put a knife in America’s back whenever it suits their interest. Do not forget, in the last hours of the attack upon the Liberty, Israeli gunboats MACHINE-GUNNED the Liberty life-rafts. Machine-gunned our life-rafts. A miserable act of cowards.
3. As to Benedict Arnold Lieberman….tis a lonely path one walks, when one walks the path of a traitor. I imagine LiarMan shows up at these nutty conventions because they’re the only ones that will have him.
Ghostman
jayt @ 85
BigMitch @ 28
Uh, what’s with the guys wearing cubes strapped just above the forehead?
jayt @ 85
Dithtinction.
Joe4Joe Lieberloser (L – Connecticut, where L stands for Lik*d) is now a member of good standing in Weaselmania.
Weaselmania, an exclusive club home to all the nation’s most irrational Regressives where ruling the “unwashed” is not just a dream, but an adventure!
Why, even Tommy DeLay showed Joey the secret handshake – No pinky ring? No Admittance!
jc in OR @ 82
The doctor who did the autopsy said he thought the 3 shots came within 10 yards…30 feet. This was murder. Not friendly fire.
to paraphrase various other commenters, my contempt for Joe Lieberman is profound and pure, infinite and eternal, transcending space, time, history, religion, science, evolution, and destiny.
WHY would anyone think that someone who has proven himself such a craven opportunist, turncoat and suck up at every occasion, could be motivated by any sort of loyalty or comittment to anyone or anything?
picture Of HoJo ten years from now
jc in OR @ 82
Per the WaPo article on the friendly fire incident” ““He got up, looked at Tillman and saw that his head was gone.”
BigMitch @ 61
Not quite sure what you mean.
Still want to know what Joe gets out of this. He won’t be appointed to anything by the Repugs, the Dems can’t possibly trust him, so what’s in it for him? I am sincerely asking because I can’t figure it out.
punaise @ 64
Lieberman, the tool’s fool.
Jonathan @ 91
Yeah? ‘ya think?
Sha @ 51
What Sha said.
Dithtinction.
Can’t believe my spell-check missed that. Where do I get a Warner Bros add-on?
punaise @ 92
not boureeing
Elliott @ 101
but he is thick as a brick
Jane Hamsher @ 99
And props to Al Gore.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
I just wrote a long paragraph in response to that…and erased it. The hook is no longer stuck in my cheek.
Twain @ 96
Each side sucks up to him, because he can tip the balance. If I were him, I’d view myself as being in a position of incredible power.
Somebody…anybody?
What does it mean when one’s (my) comments are cut off from the comment?
I’m just talking about Daffy.
LS @ 104
Sometimes I wish I had dial-up.
There are many reasons for being in favor of the war in Iraq. Taking them all together, they are inadequate. But why is it that in the case of Joe Lieberman his support for the war is always characterized only in terms of his support for Israel. Is this fair?
I don’t think Lieberman’s support for war never-ending has a thing to do with Israel (though he’d like a lot of Jews to believe it for his campaign warchest.) In my opinion, it is totally a selfish issue. He supports the war to make money, humans be damned. Christians, Jews, Muslims, anyone. Power and money are the only considerations. Name one thing he has done as a US Senator (a very powerful position) to actually help anyone other than himself.
Anyone who trucks with these right-wing fundamentalists who take the Book of Revelation literally is a fool. I mean, Joe, don’t you realize that in the rapture, we Jews get incinerated?
Heh. My business partner who’s Jewish totally gets that by the way. Also interesting is that as a group, our Jewish population is totally against the
waroccupation in Iraq in staggering numbers.Twain @ 98
well, it’s not a popular viewpoint, but I still think he has delusions of an independent candidacy in ‘08.
Loo Hoo. @ 108
Joe Lieberman doesn’t really care about Israel. He really cares only about himself.
I can’t think of many corporate media pundits who have pissed me off more than Joe Klein. His analysis of the Cheney/gw social security trust fund theft scheme was so glib, lazy and uninformed, and usually factually and arithmetically just so wrong, that I could not stand to even read or look at the guy for awhile.
Interesting that he has been willing to engage in direct contact with the citizenry via blogs, and lately been calling some of beltway celebrity political circuit for what they are.
Note that Lieberman’s office is ‘angry.’ I would like to read and listen to their response to Joe Klein calling dangerous BS for what it is. If he keeps this up, I wonder how long he can stay on the big time pundit-porn TV circuit? Would be an interesting test case, though if does keep it up, I wouldn’t be on his career lasting much longer. There is a script, the money suits and power suits write it, the talent, such as it is, don’t.
Let’s keep tabs on ol’ Joe. I hoped he’s saved up a little, he may need it. Won’t feel sorry for him, though.
“American Emba[r]rasment” is good, that could be musical. Mel Brooks could write the book.
I love the spell checker!
I disapprove of the word “Homeland” being used as a substitution for “The United States of America”.
I love my country, and those that defend “The United States of America”. Is that clear?
I’m sure Liarman *does* feel powerful now that he “tips the balance”. But once the balance shifts the blow-back is gonna be fierce.
LS @ 114
I mentioned that the other day and I also hated it when George 41 talked about a New World Order. Sorta made me feel queasy.
He’s the mouthpiece for the Bush HoJob.
Twain @ 115
And I seem remember first of terrorism in newspeak (violence that displeases the Administration) coming from the hallowed lips of George Schultz.
punaise @ 103
And, as we all know, from Gertrude Stein, a prick that’s thick as a brick is still a prick.
jc in OR @ 119
Maybe Lieberman is just losing it, mentally and emotionally. It’s happened before. Seriously, his ambition, ego,or sense of himself and his importance, or his essential conviction of his own righteousness has been so successfully challenged by reality, that he’s losing it. It’s happened to better people.
LS @ 113
Good call LS. Teddy’s been driving that home(land!!) too.
montag @ 119
He called the leader of that whoopy group “the new Moses” – I would have expected at least a thunderbolt or two.
wesgpo,
Haven’t seen you around FDL before, but I sure agree with your thoughts. Are you new? If so, welcome!
demi @ 108
Probably just a fluke. I’ve sent comments in previous threads in here and elsewhere, only to have them not show up at all. But I have no trouble anymore now that I’m using my spear and magic helmet.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 65
I am not a spokesman for Lieberman. But I strongly suspect that his views are within hailing distance of the mainstream of Jewish-American opinion on this issue. Which is:
1. In 1948, Palestine was divided into two states. One for Arabs, and one for Jews. The Jewish one became the State of Israel. The Arab one became Trans-Jordan, and later Jordan.
2. Be that as it may, that is nigh onto 60 years ago, and that was then, and this is now. We have to deal with the current situation, and there is no going back to 1948.
3. Ignoring the fringe crazies among the Jews, it is nearly universally understood that there will have to be a Palestinian state, apart from the country of Jordan which is 80 % Palestinian, and <20% Hashemite. Lieberman is almost certainly in the mainstream here. I would bet my farm on it.
4. The question is how to get from here to there. This is not the place to argue whose version of history is correct, but here is what I strongly suspect is Joe’s version. (It is also my own.) The Israelis have conquered territory during wars in which they were forced to defend themselves, most notably in 1967. They have given back the vast majority of it, especially the Sinai dessert, which gave them strategic depth as a defense against the most powerful Arab nation, Egypt. In return they got a peace deal with Egypt, and (discounting the fringes) everyone thinks that was a wonderful thing. (I recall joyous dancing in my synagogue at the announcement.)
The area known as the Gaza strip, is no longer claimed by Egypt. And the area known as the West Bank is no longer claimed by Jordan. Thus, they do not meet the criteria for “occupied territories” according to Geneva Conventions. The goal in Israel is to have a state for the Palestinians on these two territories, that could live in peace with Israel. If this could be accomplished, 90 % of Jews would regard it as one of the greatest days in the 5,000 year history of our people.
The question of Jerusalem is especially tricky. Both people claim this city as their capital. From the Jewish perspective, we have been taught since the year 286 B.C.E. to say, “If I forget thee O, Jerusalem, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I set not Jerusalem above my chiefest joy.” Psalm 137:6. Whether it is fair or not, many Jews regard the Arab insistance on making Jerusalem the capital of a Palestinian state as an example of making impossible to meet demands.
It strikes me as imminently reasonable (and I am sure that Joe would agree) that before Israel should be called upon to make any concessions to the Palestinians, their leadership should publicly acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist. They have refused to do so. Further, they have used terrorism as a tactic.
Israel has removed Jewish settlers from the Gaza, using force to do so. The image of Israeli force applied to Jews is a little hard to swallow for some, but it is strong evidence of Israel’s commitment to peace. Not only has this not resulted in a peace commitment, the subsequent elections in Gaza produced a more militant government. Hopefully, it will be less corrupt, and have the confidence of the people if ever it should choose the path of peace.
Israel has also voluntarily withdrawn from areas in Southern Lebanon, but this has not resulted in peace either.
I am not insensitive to the claims that Israel has been excessive in its use of force against Palestinians. I doubt Joe is, either. This is not the place to debate the validity of these claims. Joe probably thinks that there are more than enough people to put forward those claims, and that without equal criticism of Palestinian terror tactics, these claims ring hollow. I know I feel that way.
Everytime I hear someone talk about ‘homeland’ in connection with security (or other governmental stuff) I hear ‘heimat’ and ‘rodina’ (and ‘patria’, if you go back a lot farther). I don’t think that’s what ‘they’ intend me to hear.
With all of this I wonder why Gore picked him. To me, that was his biggest stage. Then, he did not do particularly well in the debate with Cheney; I recall being quite disappointed. Was there a particularly clear reason for the Gore choice?
BHatten @ 127
Florida (the Jewish retiree vote), and attempted innoculation against Clinton moral shortcomings.
lotta good that did.
iirc, this was a major reason the deal that Clinton tried to broker between Barak and Arafat fell through. Do I rc?
BHatten @ 129
I have always felt that Gore thought the Cuban community of Florida was going to help him carry the election, Joe quickly going down there to make nice with the putative Cuban patriots, forsaking the farmworkers and catfish gutters of this world. Set me straight if need be. I have never heard an authoritative explanation. What Punaise says sounds good to me, too. And not at all contradictory.
BHatten @ 129
Winning Florida, where there is a substantial Jewish retirement community, was one of the main reasons. It took Joe only a few weeks after that to show his treasonous colors by announcing that he was not going to drop out of the CT race for the Senate. It was a kick in the balls for Gore.
I think Joe has lost his mind. Up until now his political positions had some consistency with, as Joe Klein phrased it, “Likudnik Extremism”. The recent adulation of John Hagee, comparing him to Moses, is insane. The people that make up the 28 percent group have been the home of antisemitism in the USA. Hagee has said Jews are responsible for their persecution. How can heaping praise on people who want the see the destruction of the Jewish people make any sense?
to be clear – the over-consulted Al Gore that selected HoJo as a running mate is not the Al Gore of today.
Loo Hoo. @ 66
The Rothschilds….now there’s a family that must get tired of being defamed lo these hundreds of years.
LOL
So, let me get this straight. The Bush administration has a loophole for every contingency??
Tell me it ain’t so.
All of the brilliant legal minds of this country, can’t come up with a counter to this grab of power?
Tell me it ain’t so.
Tell me. I’m just a citizen.
LS, this was mentioned last night, but seems worth repeating:
From the Wilderness
Scroll down and on the left there is an excellent series on Tillman by Stan Goff.
GordonM @ 88
These are called in Hebrew, Tefillin and in English Phylacteries. The practice of attaching little leather boxes with certain biblical verses to one’s head and arm is based on the verse in Deuteronomy, “These words which I command you this day, shall be upon your heart, you shall teach them diligently to your children, speak of them when you wake up and when you lie down, when you walk by the way. And you shall bind them to you, and they will be for a frontlet between thine eyes, and you shall post them on the doorposts of your house and upon your gates.”
This tendency towards literalism is expressed in posting some of the same verses on the doorposts of Jewish homes.
If you see people wearing them in public the odds are they are some kind of Jews for Jesus, i.e. not Jews at all. The practice is two put them on during morning prayers except on the Sabbath, and take them off at the conclusion.
Jesus, who is believed to have worn tefillin, criticized people who wore their religion on their sleeves, as it were, saying, “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.”
punaise @ 128
Lotta good that did? You must have forgotten: Gore won.
BigMitch @ 128 It seems to me that Joe has gone well beyond what you outlined, which is place for rational discussion. Advocating the Iraq war and pushing to expand the war to Iran and Syria(?) goes well beyond what the vast majority of American or Isr*eli Jews would want. It seems to me that Joe has bought the theory that “creative destruction” is good for Israel and has aligned himself with the christian wacko’s who want an expanded Middle East war to bring the “Rapture”. That is truly insane.
with apologies:
Jeebus, the tefellin fella.
Reagan, the teflon preznit.
oddmommy @ 129
Not clear. The short answer is that Arafat couldn’t take yes for an answer. It is not entirely a jest, since his legitimacy depended on an extended struggle, not a solution. Jerusalem is an intractable issue. There is another which I recall as being more to the core of his complaint which is, the right of Palestinian return.
The Encyclopedia Britannica says, the people of Canaan (Palestine) were “faithearted in the face of the Israelite tribes.” The conquest of of Canaan by Joshua and the Israelites was “swift and decisive.” Homes were raised, people were displaced and human life was ended. Sound familiar? And that is all I wish to say on the matter. For now.
BigMitch @ 127
(Deliberately limiting my response to only this one point.) What country has a “right” to exist? Do American Indians formally recognize the “right” of the United States to exist? And if they didn’t, did that somehow make it OK to evict them? Who speaks for the (long lost in twists of history and genetics) original inhabitants of “Britain”?
I really can’t see the “rights” of a country having anything like equal footing with the “human rights” eloquently described in our Declaration of Independence. Countries only have “rights” in relation to other countries, and even then it devolves from the human rights of the occupants.
LS @ 136
Citizen, LS,
I think the legal minds, Fein, Dean, Iglesias and so many otherssuch as those I have sat at the feet of here have (applied themselves.) Now if everyone will till his or her respective field equally well (is that the proverb?), viola! Music of the spheres!
Evening everybody, and I am late to the party. But jumpin’ jiminy, Joe’s now a Jew for Jaysus?
Are there brain cells left in there?
I mean, he was never a great guy, but he didn’t used to be flat-out stoopid, did he?
punaise @ 135
Correct.
BigMitch @ 137
ah, yes. silly me.
can someone tell me the origin of “the rapture”
other then “rappers delight” I mean…where does that “disapearing” stuff come frome?
was that always around since the second testiment or is that some recent concoction?
BigMitch @ 127
Joe would do well to listen to a former Israeli Prime Minister: to wit, Pakistan trumps all other the threats to Israel.
Unless Joe knows of some way to bomb Pakistan with impunity, he’d better start pushing for peace in the Middle East, and the sooner the better.
I hate ‘homeland’ too. And I especially hate Homeland Security. It has a big-brother, police state feeling to it. I swear to God, I’m more afraid of my govt. than I ever thought would be possible.
I got a good idea of the difference betw secular Jews and orthodox from an old rabbi named Elias when I was a driver for UPS in Manhattan in the early 80s when Israel first invaded Lebanon.
I asked him one afternoon how he felt about Israel’s aggressiveness and he poured me a drink of some homemade alcohol, gave me some small cakes and told me that the state of israel was an illegal state and that what they were doing his people considered a sin. Elias was a Satmar Hasidic Jew and he gave me some education.
From him I learned about Purim, Succoth, Passover, so many different things. While we spoke he had all the young guys working like crazy getting more packages into the book to be shipped. His son owns B&H Photo in Manhattan and at the time they were a small store on Warren Street in lower Manhattan.
I really enjoyed my talks with him and learned a lot.
punaise @ 141
I think you take this too laterally.
Steve-AR @ 139
If you say so, Steve. I think there is a tendency to interpret everything Joe does as having to do with his view on Israel. Why can’t he just want to smack Iran because he fears that they will have a nuclear weapon soon and that this poses a threat to America? He would be wrong, imho, but no more wrong than a guy like Cheney, who is also an asshole.
Let me tell you my favorite joke of all time, which is very timely now, as I watch the Giants game.
A little boy comes home from his first day at school and says to his grandfather, “Zayde, Zayde! ((Grandpa, Grandpa) Did you hear?? Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs!!.”
The old man strokes his beard and ponders for a bit before he replies, “Is this good or bad for the Jews?”
perris @ 150
this is interesting
I searched wiki and they have nothing on the rapture
if anyone here writes for them you could get an entry cuz that belings on wiki for sure
why is it we pretend joe isn’t an agent of a foreign power first, and some kind of very poor american second, and or last. you might put republican extremist in between
Loo Hoo. says: July 28th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
I commented here often once, my first entry into the scary blogospherathonathingee. It inspired me to start my own blog… but then my professional and personal life (very sick elders) got me way too busy, so I de-blogged and relurked. But this is the best blog, I think. The best combo of wildness, readability, perceptive commentarity, and accurate and informative nerdery on the blogs, IMHO. I’m still too busy with stuff, so just check in and out. Nothing will ever break my FDL habit with the amazing team they have built.
BigMitch says: July 28th, 2007 at 7:34 pm:
But… but… Bush has done more deep six a good solution to the Israel-Palestinian issue thant the last four presidents combined. There are a lot of politicians who are too sympathetic to Likud views for my taste, but even given their overly pro Israel (actually, I mean pro quasi-Likud) sympathies, they can stay in reality-land. Feinstein and Tom Lantos, for example. Lantos went to freaking Syria and is advocating comprehensive talks with Iran. You don’t get more pro-Israel than Lantos and I totally disagree with his votes on Palestinian issues, but at least he has not gone nuts and can play a constructive role, given some views that I disagree with very much.
The approach of Cheney, Bush, Lieberman, and their crowd have really messed things up, unless you *want* to have no peaceful and equitable solution. They have dangerously messed things up and they say untrue crazy things. So there is a big difference between them and others re Israel.
Dealing with the dispensationalist fundamentalist, rapturist nuts is bad, period. These nutcakes think it is their duty to START World War III. They have overturned the 2000 year old Christian interpretation of Daniel and Revelations, and made a violent and heretical interpretation of the Bible the absolute core and centerpiece of their faith.
If they didn’t get a pass for being good moral majority ‘Christians’ they would be reviled as a dangerous apocalyptic cult. I am a Christian, but these people believe hateful heretical crazy dangerous anti-Semetic stuff I don’t see much Christianity or any kind of valid religion in them. OK, sure, if it’s a good idea to reach out to Iran, I guess it’s a good idea to reach out to them. But particpate in a big cheerleading party? No way.
james @ 151
B&H is a great company to do business with.
oldtree @ 155
For the same reason we pretend Rahm Emanuel is interested in the future of the Democratic Party.
I’m a nice Catholic girl. So my knowledge of Judaism is limited. Actually, a good deal of it came from the Rabbi Small mystery series. Anyone ever read those?
perris @ 148
Not my area of expertise but I always thought it came from an interpretation of the Book of Revelations.
solai @ 157
Yes, and liked them very much. They just stopped for some reason. Never heard why. Do you know?
solai @ 158
Hmmm…mystery to me!
BigMitch @ 162
isn’t it a more recent interpretatiion?
james @ 151
So you would agree with me that between this Rabbi and Joe is a world of difference? The Rabbi is what I would regard as a fundamentalist.
perris: I found this listing for the rapture. “Premillenial” is a key concept, I think, as it only surfaced in the mid-1800s….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
solai @ 159
Like, Friday the Rabbi Slept Late?
perris @ 150
Mahablog has written about this. Her most recent piece on the topic is here.
No sweat. I’ve been told that after disappearing all the a**holes, He’s coming back with pizza and beer.
Twain @ 163
No
New Thread
BigMitch@166:
I agree completely and having spoken with Elias always gave me a good perspective on how to identify people with their politics instead of with their religion in addition to the old faithful way of identifying my class interests in politics by who was f*g me and other working guys.
demi @ 37
BigMitch @ 168
That’s one of them.
Mutant Poodle @ 147
As long as I’ve known anything about him, yes, he’s been flat out stupid and lying to boot. When I voted for Gore, I didn’t know anything about Lieberman. I stupidly just trusted Gore. Now we all do, and no getting past it. Gore’s major mistake.
perris @ 150
Well, it’s sort of out of Revelation, by way of magical thinking. That Revelation was written probably no earlier than the late 1st century CE/AD doesn’t register, because they believe that it’s the literal word of Dog. (I swear, some of these people think that ‘Authorized’ in ‘Authorized Version’ means authorized by Dog, not authorized by James VI/I for the Church of England. but that’s another can of worms.)
It produces people who are against cremation, because then there’s no body left to rise on judgment day – they frequently believe in literal resurrection of the body – and some people went so far as to have amputated limbs preserved in order to be buried with them.
I think they’re nuts myself. (One of my friends says Revelation reads like a drug trip.)
CD @ 167
thanxl I kept typing in rapture and couldn’t get a result
but there it is, it surfaced in the 1800’s…and people act as though the rapture is something in the second testiment, it’s clearly not, it began in the minds of people that wanted more control over their “flock”
New thread.
solai @ 170
Ran out of days of the week.
What I say is not very important, but after reading Glenn Greenwalds description of what Joe had to say at Rev Hagee’s meeting, Joe’s problem goes beyond being an asshole.
BigMitch @ 153
There as worried about an Iranian nuke attack on anyone as they were about a 45-minute warning for a gas or nuke attack by Hussein. In a word, NOT worried These jerks assume United Statesers (sometimes I can’t bring my self to imply, even slightly, that the US represents the Americas) are so ignorant that they would think a country, any country with more that six people consulting on major decisions, unlike the US, would risk extinction for the satisfaction of popping a foreign city. Rogue nukes are another question. I think the ones who would risk that are such as Mr. Bin Ladin, gangsters from the ex-USSR, Tim McVeigh types, military commanders with brain tumors, etc.
perris @ 156
The rapture was conceived by the late Mayor of Clidesdale, New Hampshire, Jim. He woke one morning to a low fog went outside and was struck stupid by God himself. God spoke to him but it was in another tongue. He said, “What did you say God sir?” When he realized that God had sucked himself back up to heaven he realized that God would do the same some day to the most faithful. Now the mayor’s followers are still waiting to get sucked up.
perris @ 177
now tie that in with “dispensationalists
these are people that think armageddon is a good thing, they actually think they can speed the event and so hasten “the rapture”
I believe president bush is a dispensationalist
Rapture
BigMitch @ 28
Liberman and Israel are intimately connected. He would not still be in office were it not for his A*P*C support, and per Max Blumenthal Lieberman’s friends at CUFI call for “a unilateral military attack on Iran and the expansion of Israeli territory,”
It’s interesting to see Klein come around.
But he doesn’t get any kudos for his reasoning – “Hey, Joey, I thought us Jews wuz s’posta stick together?”
Oh, that’s what it took to realize Lieberman’s an asshole? Just being an asshole wasn’t enough?
solai @ 159, 170
Kemelman stopped writing them (retired from writing) and later died. They were fun to read.
I always loved getting into discussions with Jehovah Witnesses after they gave their rant about how the Bible is the word of god, blah, blah, blah.
I’d ask them who wrote the Bible and when they said people transcribed it I’d ask if they didn’t think maybe someone writing it had their own agenda.
I actually had an elder hold back one of his more ardent proaselytizers because he thought i was being blasphemous. Interesting.
My ex used to hate it when they came to the door, but I used to go out and have a wonderful time playing with them. The elder told me i was his project…I told him he was mine and to keep bringing the novices around.
After about two years he gave up.
priscianus jr @ 39
Oh! But not ALL Jews would be exterminated. 144,000 Virgin Male Jews who tattoo on their foreheads their belief in Jesus as Savior and climb Mt. Zion will be saved. But they have to be untainted by the act of having nooky with those seductive Jewessess.
What all this means is that the rapture is likely going to occur about the time that someone counts all the grains of sand on all the beaches of the world.
144,000 Virgin male Jews…who convert to Christianity…and teek up Mt. Zion? C’mon Fundies! When’s that gonna happen?!!
Maybe this is simply an allegory for something like “it’ll happen when pigs fly”…or “when hell freezes over”. Since Jews thought referring to pigs suggested a discussion of unclean animals, and since they didn’t believe hell was hot…they used a phrase that would indicate something just as fantastically impossible: “when 144,000 Virgin Jews would convert and climb Mount Zion.” It’s so obvious! ;-)
The Scripture was actually saying the “rapture” will never happen!
http://www.omniglot.com/langua…..ngpigs.htm
BigMitch @ 56
An example of this would be Human Rights Campaign supporting Holy Joe over Ned Lamont.
Among others that posted on this, Pachacutec said, via the HuffPo on 01June06.
I’ve always wondered about the internal disagreements HRC may have had behind the scenes, about what it meant for them to vote for him. There must have been members that were caught between the rock and a hard place scenario.
I do believe in their mission, though now I choose to fund other organizations with similiar goals instead.
punaise @ 64
Or the “Tool’s Stool”
perris @ 165
Yes there was a big ideological fight: half became raptures and half became rappers. The rest is history :-0
BigMitch @ 56
I don’t know if sentimental reasons are appropriate for supporting a relationship that is clearly not in the U.S. interest. That’s not to say that we shouldn’t support the legitimate sovereign rights of Israel to exist. But the “alliance” has often reached a point where the U.S. has vetoed condemnation in the U.N. for patently immoral and illegal acts. It’s almost like the situation where parents defend a child even when that child has committed an act of theft and was caught red-handed.
As far as the U.S. special role in Israels “birth” – the US only recognized the de facto status of Israel after they declared independance. Essentially Truman stated it was a fait accompli . The State Department and Joint Chiefs of Staff repeatedly advised him that recognition of an Israeli state would serve the interests of Soviet expansionism and create problems with Arab States and access to oil in the region.
When the State of Israel came into existence on May 14, 1948, the Soviet Union granted de jure recognition almost immediately in 1948 along with seven other states within the next five days (Guatemala, Byelorussia, the Ukraine, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Uruguay, and Yugoslavia). It was only in 1949 when the US accorded Israel with full, legal recognition.
And since when is it a democracy when approximately half the adult population resident in the territory of that entity are precluded from participating in that “democracy”? And have been for almost 40 years?
jc in OR @ 83
Refusal to turn over key evidence through “Executive Privilege”…the immediate burning of Tillman’s uniform that contained bloodspatter and chemical evidence that would establish the range at which he was shot, as well as whether anyone constrained him when this occurred (bloody handprints or bootprints). Why destroy the uniform if this was simply a mistaken friendly-fire” case?
Then there is the repeated bogus investigations…essentially covering up the truth. The actions taken against the “whistleblowers”.
LS @ 115
Agreed.
Uber-creepy.
BigMitch @ 127
I beg to differ. This is why the loss of Itzhak Rabin is so tragic — as he said, you make peace with your enemies, not with your friends.
Recognizing Israel’s right to exist is the last piece of the negotiating puzzle for the Palestinians — demanding that it be a precondition is a deal breaker, and every diplomat knows it. In addition, the Israeli occupation and/or blockade of the West Bank and Gaza are humiliating at the least, and terrorism at the worst — and it is this injustice, inflicted day in and day out, year in and year out, that has fueled the Palestinian resentment and given rise to Hamas.
That said, I am not defending Palestinian terrorism, nor condemning the inherent terrorism of the Israeli occupation — these are the status quo, and it is from there that a peace agreement must be hammered out.
As for Joe Lieberman — he is a politician, who has become an advocate for the A*P*C position on Middle East — which is a rough equivalent of the NRA position on guns.
A*P*C knows fundraising, and knows how to use it to unseat incumbents who cross the A*P*C party line. Joe Lieberman is the champion of the A*P*C party line, whether he believes in it or not.
The A*P*C positions are far more radical than any found in Israeli domestic politics, much to the detriment of all concerned. So those who say Joe Lieberman carries water for Israel are wrong — he advocates for A*P*C.
Cozumel @ 111
Surveys have consistently shown that American Jews have been ahead of the average US population in opposing the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Opposition started high even before the war started, and is currently about 70% opposed to occupation.
http://www.cjp.org/page.html?ArticleID=98136
There is, however, a disconnect between Jewish ORGANIZATIONS and the general population. Those who assert they represent the US Jewish public are not in synch with “the base”.
And A*P C was clearly walking in tandem with the many Jewish members of PNAC in arguing that the invasion of Iraq was in Israel’s interest…and that pre-emptively eliminating Saddam was “protecting American allies” in the region.
BigMitch @ 155
How does Iran having a nuclear weapon threaten the U.S.?
If we had as public policy the massive nuclear retaliation by our forces against any state suspected of helping anyone mount a successful nuclear attack on us I would think that would give some peopl pause.
It held the Russians in check for 50 years. It would hold Iran an bay for as long.
But of course our threat would have to be believed. And Bush has take care of our credibility on such things pretty well. What with arming the Saudi’s homeland of the 9/11 attackers and supporters of the Iraqi resistance.
And of course that’s not what this is all about. It’s all about the destruction of our democracy by the kleptocrats and Fascists in the ReThuglican Party and ‘conservative’ movement so they can loot the Treasury and make our nation the first Corporate Slave State
Lieberman’s committee has not done any oversight on Katrina. It would be intersting to know who are the other senators that sit on this committee with Lieberman, and also to hear their views on the matter of why there is no action. Another Katrina anniversay is fast approaching and we still don’t know who failed the citizens of New Orleans and why.
BigMitch @ 56
Sorry Mitch, but this to me is a bit of double-speak. Name one reason to be in favor of the Iraq invasion. We are talking about an unmitigated disaster. Even Dick Lugar thinks that, for crissakes.
A.Citizen @ 198
Of course, the answer is, it does not.
The fear is not the nuclear weapon, but nuclear power. That will make Iran a world power, and a country to be reckoned with. That is the threat; the threat of compromise. Something the neocons, and mostly, the L*k*ds like Joe loathe most.
~~~ModNote: edited for content to clear filters.~~~
Harry Kemelman, had an MA from Harvard in 1931
and won an Edgar from the MWA (Mystery Writers of America) for Friday the Rabbi Slept Late. His books were charming and educational, though not particularly challenging as mysteries.
Not sure he educated us about the current I-P situation, but he wrote good reads and provided life style education for many about Judaism. RIP Mr Kemelman.
Joe Klein said something completely sane and sensible about the Democrats and the Iraq War–well, well. What’s that tune the British army played when they surrendered to George Washington: “The World Turned Upside-Down?”
take a look at those lilly white fingers on joe’s hand…so perfect, so soft, small and dainty, so unused to ANY FUCKING WORK.
Why Connecticut hasn’t booted his ass out is a big mystery, he does absolutely nothing.
When your the Congressional front man for the Nazis Racist Committee (RNC) the Fascist Neocons’ and the right wing nuts of the Religious right, you have NO morals you are a sell out and DO NOT have to worry about lolalties, as you have sanctamonious asshole coverage from the right as your are the POINTMAN for ALL Isreal back door negociations.
All you have to do is be a TRAITOR to your Oath and have INSIDE knowledge that your PALS in the Senate will cover your traitorous acts. Now your in and safe just another TRAITOR NOT held accountable, serving the Military Industrial complex and the New World Order.
Here’s why Jews like Joe feel safe in proclaiming their solidatarity with the Christian end-of-daysians. Jews know it ain’t gonna happen the way the Rapturians imagine. Both communities are happy to let God sort it out.
Come to this thread ever so very late and have done a scan and read of the comments…as with any blogsite after a while I do tend to seek out comments from those I can read without blood pressure issues arising.
So…albeit very late in this threads span of activity level…a few more thoughts.
One first is given much cause if one cares in any way large or small about the state of the American Democratic Party as to why Joe Lieberman is still allowed to be a member of the DEM Party.Why is he? Whatever he has become it is very much not good for the DEMs to allow him to stay in the Democratic Party.
What hold has he or clause is in effect that permits him to stay on or in?
For the love of country and party would the DEMS please cut this guy loose. Sooner. Better.
As for the plight of Arab Palestine and the sorry story of what Israel does day in and day out in the WestBank and Gaza…
Would any of us if subjected to what the Israeli zealots are doing to Arab Palestinians not very likely react in similar ways as the Arab Palestinians have after decades of Israels land grabs,home smashing and police state/political expungement conduct?
As Americans we are not on the good guys side with our mindless,ignorant support of the Israeli zealots and their quest for Arab Palestinian political/cultural expungement.
By giving the Israeli zealots such unquestioning and unconditional support no matter what the Israeli zealots do or the levels of deplorable conduct they seek to act on and out we Americans surrender our very own broader ME interests and credibility of fair hearing and fair judgement in ME affairs.
That is a serious shortfall and failure in/of American ME conduct.
Israel clearly has played repeatedly with the Arab Palestinians destiny and right of existence in deplorable,unjustifiable and far too often illegal and brutal ways.
For those who can not or will not see the harm we Americans do ourselves with the stupidity and mindlessness of our current pro-Israel stances in ME one can only hope such shortsightedness is changeable or capable of evolving viewpoint and insight.
I sincerely suggest to any/all to visit sites such as zmag.org and form a pattern of doing so more often. Open your minds and eyes.Discover some mercy and compassion for what the Arab Palestians endure and have endured for so long at the hand of Israel.This being the same killer militarism/state terrorism and hell we Americans are unleashing/inflicting on Iraqis in Iraq these days. Multiply four years of the Americans deeds in Iraq times the decades of what Israel has done to Arab Palestine. It goes beyond being monstrous.
We Americans can not be agents of good in the ME if we will not indeed be agents of good and conduct ourselves in ways which are or are seen as truly fair and compassionate. As being friends. Not the bad guys who are giving the bad guys money,arms and support to do what is not right.
Finally, we are beginning to realize that Holy Joe is more than a deliberate contrarian for media coverage. He is nuts. I’ve said this all along. He has some psychiatric problem that he can no longer keep hidden and is galloping wildly. Isn’t it enough to say that Dubya likes him and uses him for some twisted leverage and Holy Joe complies? Religion is just his vehicle for his pyschosis.
if it is written in scripture u better believet.y so muchopposition to scripture in here?
we may argue with interpratation of scripture but we should heed the message and dont harass those who do. all scripture are inspired of god and if we disregard its message we have nothing to gain but everything to lose. history is full of it
Big Mitch, you are a pro-Lieberman/pro our colony Israel troll.
Every time you have posted you have seemed sweet reason and have then written bull shit.
Were I not ill I should have responded long since.
Israel is even less a democracy than the US (a plutocracy masquerading as one) — examine the state of the resident Moslems and Christians.
In 1967 Israel was the aggressor. Israel had planned that aggression for when the tunnel from the conjunction of the Jordan and Yarmuk rivers was finished. Israel follows what it learnt from Goebbels, — lie grandiosely and repeatedly and you will be believed.
You do know, do you, that “Israel” was an organized society of Palestinians (Canaanites) before the Hebrews even existed let alone the Jews?
The world-wide loathing of the US began as much as for any reason when Israel destroyed the USS Liberty and Lyndon Johnson, being in the pocket of The Lobby, known as A*P*C, did nothing. BTW, the Liberty as destroyed because it was recording Israel’s murder of captured Egyptian soldiers because they could not be bothered to feed them.
It is utter idiocy to suggest that GW Bush has done much for the Palestinians. Every US president has a single ample opportunity to change the US economic future to give it a chance to change from its present path towards collapse. That change is to stop listening to the lying propaganda from the Israel lobby and to stop giving, what, a country about as big as New Jersey, populated, now, largely by Russians, so much money.
If the US were to demand repayment of the loans of trillions and stops giving these terrorist immigrants any more money, the suppurating boil which is ‘Israel’ will disappear.
To concentrate readers’ attentions here are some quotes from Israeli/Jews leaders for your delectation.
Hitler and Himmler would not have dared utter the following sentiments outside a room of totally committed Party members. These people are so low-grade and arrogant they are quite happy to say such things in public,
“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
– Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.
“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online
“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
– Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
– Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
– Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers … heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
– Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988.
Wearing his other hat — terrorist, Yitzak Shamir murdered Count Bernadotte, the UN Representative, in King George Avenue in Jerusalem, in 1948. You know, that same Bernadotte who saved thousands of Jews from the Germans.
“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”
– Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”‘ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
(The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up by Menachem Begin in 1946. Those murders, which he proudly owned, caused him never to land in London on his travels to Camp David for fear of arrest on his own admission. And, BTW, the King David was owned by an old old Egypt and Palestine-dwelling Jewish family called Moseri. They had probably evacuated to Egypt in 70-77AD!)
“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
– Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.
“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
– Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
– Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
– David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
– David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
– David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
sal @ 210
Sal, the Old Testament is a work of fiction, political propaganda, written about 650-600 BC. There is a wealth of archaeological evidence to prove that. ‘The View from Mount Nebo’ and ‘Te Bible Unearthed’ are good books to read about it.
oh heck. in epu’d, trivial, why-bother-land, but methinks “embarrassment” has 2 r’s *g*
Thanks {{{{Jane}}}} for skewering the fella so deftly. Hope you’re feeling better these days.
;->
Jews can rationally accept the real world help they get from evangelist Christians, because that know help will actually strengthen Israel’s position, and they think the Rapture scenario is just superstitious bullshit that will never happen anyway. The hypocrisy is all on the Christian side, in that they pretend to love Israel while simultaneously believing, even hoping, that the Jews will all be destroyd when the Rapture that the Christians believe in actually comes to pass.
MAUNGA I DISAGREE BUT U CAN TRUST ANYTHING U WANT .i am not here to convince anyone i enjoy most of the writing on the site. but i sure dont agree with the bias against cristianity
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what do iran and iraq in common ?
they both have oil so should they disregrd that the rest of western country lust for their oil? usa as nuclear power so europe so russia ad china and others should they consider to devolope nuclear technology?
how can they defend themself when evryone else lusts after theit oilshould they remain vulnerable to others country think about it.
What is most offensive is the way Joe tars and calumnies the Democratic Party that gave him everything.
Lieberman is the Rabbi Baruch Korff of Bush’s twilight.