Countries, through policy choices, pretty much set their own crime and incarceration rates. Certainly, it’s true, as any demographer or criminologist will tell you, that crime goes up and down in waves as the population of young males goes up and down, but with essentially the same demographics different countries will still have very different crime and incarceration rates.
Why?
The reason lies in a distinction the Romans were well aware of. Some crimes are crimes in themselves and you can figure out which ones they are by seeing what crimes are universal, or nearly so, across time and different societies. Murder, rape and assault rank high here. Others are crimes because they are made a crime by society – the classic example, used because it is remote from us, is sumptuary laws, where only nobles were allowed to use or wear certain luxury goods. (Purple lined robes in the Roman Republic, for example.)
The vast majority of all laws deal with the second category as does the vast majority of all criminal activity. Drug laws, laws requiring people to pay taxes, statutory rape laws, laws regulating ownership of land and other possessions, almost all business law, and all laws regulating employment are all about things our society chooses to make a crime.
The distinction isn’t really between “good laws” and “bad laws”, and many laws could be considered necessary that aren’t particularly natural. (Paying your taxes, for example, is required for our society to exist. Drunk driving laws prevent a lot of deaths and few people are willing to suggest that kids should be free to have sex and marry as soon as they hit puberty, even though in many historical societies they have been able to and certainly their bodies are ready.)
Roughly speaking one might divide up “laws of choice” into three categories.
The first are morality laws. In the sociological literature the people who push these are call moral entrepreneurs. A lot of people like to force their own morality on other people.
You can see this in a very pure form in Prohibition, where the primarily rural, Protestant areas of the country formed a coalition to force the non-Protestants in the cities to stop drinking. But you can also see it today, in the gay marriage debate, where some States have not only kept gay marriage illegal, but have gone further and stripped gay couples of rights they could already enjoy through normal legal means.
The US was formed in explicit denial of one form of these laws:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
But, of course, the entire debate around abortion is a moral and religious argument as is the one around homosexuality
The second type of laws of choice are laws created by the government to protect its own interests. Laws against tax evasion. Laws allowing property to be seized. Money tracking laws and so on. Not having good enough records when the IRS comes visiting can be a crime.
A third category is when the government acts to enforce the privileges of a monopoly or oligopoly. Calling yourself a doctor when you don’t have the right license is an example, and in fact in studies few things will get you cracked down harder than hanging up a shingle without the proper qualifications and memberships. Using the state to enforce some form of monopoly, whether service, good or labor is a long long standing practice. You can see it today when telecom companies have lobbied state legislatures to make providing free wireless Internet illegal, so they can charge for it or in so-called intellectual property laws.
In fact the best way to make money is to get the State to force people to give it to you. Want mood altering drugs? Well, legally you can only get most of the really effective ones (other than alcohol) from the troika of doctors/pharmacists and drug companies). The cheap easy ones that can’t be patented are almost all illegal, and it is not a coincidence that as the AMA gained strength this is what happened (having a monopoly on being able to alter people’s moods is a sure money maker.)
So what we have in America is a society where the drugs of the rich and middle class are either legal, or not strongly enforced (how many celebrities who use cocaine have done serious jail time) and the drugs of the poor and minorities (who can’t afford to pay commissions and mark ups through the official mood altering regime) are illegal. I’ve had Valium, and I’m telling you its a serious drug and how many people are on it or some form of similar drug?
What you have, on a more local level, is the inability of people to throw a carpet down on a sidewalk and simply start selling things. They need “licenses” and for most of the poor, that isn’t possible. The rights of the official merchants who pay for market space, and kick back into government coffers through increased taxes are protected against those too poor to do so.
Then there’s what sociologists call Labeling. The simplest example of this is “driving while Black.” Control for everything and blacks still get stopped far more often while driving when Black. For the same crime blacks are charged more often, convicted more often and get longer jail sentences. Exchange black in those sentences with “poor” or “Latino” and they’re still all valid.
The consequence of being convicted of a crime are horrific. I’m not talking about the prison time, though what with the rape and violence, that’s horrific enough. What’s worse is what happens when you come out. When you’ve “served your time”. When you’ve “paid your debt to society”. Because now you’re not just labeled a Black, or Hispanic, or Poor – you’re labeled an ex-con. Since the vast majority of good jobs at good employers require background checks these days, odds are you will never, ever, again have a good job.
Most of the roads to prosperity are cut off for you. The American Dream is dead. Indeed even lower paying jobs can be difficult to obtain. As such the odds of you being pushed into the gray or black economy are very high; odds of committing another crime are very high and odds of being caught and convicted are very high. Once you’ve been marked, the unmarked generally don’t want to associate with you. Almost by necessity you fall into a bad crowd. And all of this can come from one conviction – a conviction that someone luckier, someone whiter or richer, would never have had, even though he too did the crime.
Again this is measurable and you can compare recidivism rates between countries then look at how hard it is to get a decent job. If it’s hard, you’ll have more recidivism. It’s really just that simple. (Though yes, it isn’t the only factor at all.)
The simplest and easiest way to reduce crime rates is to reduce or eliminate the criminalization of victimless crimes. The US has the highest prison population in the modern world, beating out even Russia and China, because it chooses to do so. It has them because it refuses to stop trying to tell its own citizens how they should live their lives, in many cases when their actions are either harming only themselves or are harming those who have consensually agreed to be harmed or because it is enforcing a monopoly for those who have power or who kick back into the system.
The prison population exists also because it is how competition is reduced for scarce jobs on the low end. With the exact same resume, a black candidate for a job will get half the interviews a white one will. With the exact same crime, blacks are incarcerated at a much higher rate than whites. These two things are not coincidences, they are flip sides of the same coin.
Finally the prison population is also so large because it is a way of spreading pork to rural areas. Rural folks work at locking up urban blacks. It’s a great way to give them something to do so they don’t have to leave the area and go to a city themselves.
With only a few exceptions, crime is what a society chooses it to be, and the crime rate is what the society chooses it to be. America chooses to have a higher incarceration rate than unfree China or than Russia or than any European state because America chooses to tell its citizens what to do and what not to do, and to enforce harsher penalties when they don’t obey.
Societies are the way they are because humans make them that way. They aren’t hurricanes (though we’re beginning to effect those). They aren’t forces of nature. While individually each of us can claim we aren’t responsible, in total they are the sum of our decisions about how we want to live – and how we want to force other people to live. They tell us who we are – what we really value when the rubber hits the road – what is important to us, and we could care less about.
So it is with crime. For each crime we need to sit back and ask ourselves “Is this a natural crime that all societies would recognize as such (murder, rape, torture, assault)? Is it something, which if allowed, while not a crime in all times and places, would destroy our society (no one paying their taxes, for example). If it is neither, then is this really something worth punishing? Is it really something worth bearing the costs of enforcement? Why? What is the benefit to society of making this illegal? What is the cost of doing so? Do those outweigh the benefit of keeping it or making it legal?
When you start asking those questions, whole swathes of law – especially laws enforcing so-called victimless crimes (who was hurt?) start looking very flimsy. In fact, viewed in a certain light, those laws start seeming more like crimes themselves.
Ian also writes at the Agonist
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Zed
Really interesting post. Thanks, Ian.
thanks Ian
(i bet i’m not in the first 12.)
hello firepups
Good set of questions
Excellent Post, Ian! Victimless crimes certainly need to be decriminalized! Drugs, Prostitution,…!!!
Crime always “pays” somebody.
#1 US export, death and destruction
WASHINGTON — The Bush administration has decided to supply billions of dollars in advanced new weapons to Saudi Arabia, other Arab allies of the United States and to Israel, senior State Department officials and congressional aides said Friday.
The arms and aid package, which the officials said is to be announced on Monday, is part of a U.S. initiative to reassure worried allies in the Middle East that despite its troubles in Iraq, the United States remains committed to the region. It also is meant to send a signal of resolve to Iran’s increasingly confident leaders.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/hom…..18457.html
Bush’s logic is to sell weapons to Saudia Arabia who in turn keeps Alquaeda well equipped as they kill american soldiers in order to prove that we can never leave the Middle East. It gets absurd when the US is bombing villages, weddings, and civilians and their targets aren’t well-equipped. Pappa Bush and the arms industry get their greedy hands on saudi money which comes from the sale of oil to the US and then the greenbacks are recirculated. Which in turn the weapons industry receives government contracts paid by US Taxpayers and develop more deadly catastrophic anti-humanity death machines to keep the wefare subsidized elite in taxpayer greenbacks. And the poor in the military for God & Country. Now that’s what I call Moonshine.
What a great piece Ian “The simplest and easiest way to reduce crime rates is to reduce or eliminate the criminalization of victimless crimes.”
Lots of victims as a consequence of the outing of Valerie Plame Wilson by Libby, Ari Fleisher, Novak, Armitage, Rove, Cheney. The national security of the American people would be the most serious victim, then Valerie and her co-workers who were(did some of them die?) risking their lives for U.S. National security.
Hell today I read about two women who will do 10 years for robbing a grocery store in Appalachia. Libby and the other traitors who outed Valerie run free.
How can anyone possibly wonder why people do not have respect for our justice system?
The Republicans have elevated two categories of crime to new heights in our country; War Crimes and Corporate Murder. How many people have Big-Pharma and Agra-Business made sick and killed by subverting regulation and oversight?
Treatment and diversion, and that old beast rehabilitation now in the case of the first two generally only available to the well off, and the latter demonized so it can’t be brought up any longer. A fine way to make criminals out of the sick and the hopeless, and make money too by incarceration of Immoral behavior (acording to some.)
The Biggest growth industry in the USA-incarceration. Rural people guarding urban blacks, look at Kentucky. A boon to any local economy, simply get a correctional institution or two or three…
From last post
Twain @ 94
GordonM @ 86
For the record, I like Edwards over anybody. Even Gore. (And I’m in Maine, so southern accents make my skin crawl.)
WHY?
Gordon
You are a real Yankee. What about those Kennedy accents?
Do you know about the anti-war rally in Maine in late August?
Join the President for his vacation in Kennebunkport
http://www.zmag.org/content/sh…..emID=13376
http://www.kportprotest.org/index.html
Great post Ian … and a very important topic.
One of the best organizations dealing with precisely these issues is the Ella Baker Center Van Jones from there will be speaking at YKOS btw.
When I lived in New Haven, I spent a bunch of time at the arraignment court (I did political work with a group that did a lot of civil disobedience so I was often there as legal support for friends) and it was always stunning to see the very clear difference in treatment of white upper class youth studying at Yale and nabbed for disorderly conduct, etc (normally alcohol related) and local black youth. The Yale kids showed up with a Yale lawyer and were given little slaps – community service, etc. The black youth had no lawyer and were bound over for trial (or most likely plea bargain and some jail time once the public defender caught up with them). And this all preserved the spotless records of the Yale kids – and doomed the black kids. I often suggest that folks go spend some time at their local courthouse and watch these everyday cases – it’s quite an education.
CTuttle @ 6
It is OK if you are a Republican. In fact all crimes are OK for them. They have taken an oath to the President. Rapture or Repression.
CTuttle @ 6
Are prostitution and drugs victimless? Probably not as general categories of human activity..but whatever, the criminal justice system isn’t the way to deal with it.
Our prisons are not crowded because of prosecutions for prostitution. Our defacto attitude toward prostitution is not that different from legalization. The number one reason, in my humble opinion, that we have such an outrageously large prison population is because of the long sentences that we impose, compared to European countries.
Longer jail sentences are hard to argue against in an election campaign where there is always the fear of being called “soft on crime.” Plus, there is a constituency with a monetary interest, namely, the prison/industrial complex. They actively lobby for longer terms for drug offenses, for example.
Second, it may just be that the reason that so many Americans in jail compared to Europeans, is that Americans are more violent.
A typical user of heroin would get a therapeutic sentence on his first bust, and his conviction might even get erased. What happens to the typical European in similar circumstances? It seems obvious to me that illicit drug use is a public health problem, not a criminal law problem, but getting elected on that platform is not likely to happen.
Thank you Ian for this important post! I apologize for going OT – but I must sign off now. I had the following message EPU’d in the last thread, and wanted to add it here. Since Edwards has been talking about Two Americas – hopefully it isn’t totally off your topic:
Oddmommy said:
“I don’t feel qualified to respond as to Obama, but as for Edwards’ use of his money…….give me a f******g break. It’s all more $400 haircut shit. ALL of these people are fucking millionaires. The lifestyle of himself and his family has nothing to do with his committment to help the poor. Fer Chrissakes, the repubs do all of that to the nth degree, and no one calls them on it…..because, what the hell, everyone knows they don’t give a shit about the poor anyway”
THANK YOU for saying this! Besides – he builds a house – who benfits? Workers who are builders and craftsmen, NC taxes, etc. Do people think that he should live in a tent? What does he do with his money, besides build a large house? He gives a lot of money to a foundation that provides quality education to young people who couldn’t afford it. He has supported more than anyone (possible exception is Gore) to the recovery of New Orleans, including donating his time and sweat to work with the college students he brought down there to shovel out those destroyed homes.
All the Kennedys were/are rich – and so are many of their children. There are indeed these wonderful Democratic examples of people who use their comfortable financial situation to give their lives to our society instead of the Repubs who use their situation to just enhance their largesse.
Let us not buy into the Repub denigration of Edwards (and Clinton).
We need a president who has demonstrated a commitment to the problems that Ian highlights here.
Hi Ian, thanks for another clear thought provoking post.
I confess I’ve never been arrested but being a girl has it’s advantages. Or perhaps it’s that being a guy has it’s disadvantages when you encounter The Law.
Rupture their rapture with the application reason, ruin their repression with quite action.
I am not only a pacifist but a militant pacifist. I am willing to fight for peace. Nothing will end war unless the people themselves refuse to go to war. A.E.
Nothing will restore justice, without reforming the laws.
Hold up a sec.
Are you seriously suggesting that white-collar behaviors like tax evasion, securities fraud, Medicare fraud, and the like should be decriminalized? What about perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, witness intimidation, jury tampering?
Not even the current maladministration has been willing to go that far.
The “behavioral reform” industry is doing very well. It’s something, too, that inmates can be trained in- allowing them to learn a “trade” while serving their crime- the synergies are delightful.
burnspbesq @ 21
I believe the current administration takes a more discriminating point of view, namely, “it’s okay if it is one of us.”
burnspbesq @ 21
I don’t think Ian said that at all.
he did say this:
BigMitch @ 17
DING!
You don’t talk about income inequality. Poverty without hope will encourage people into illegal activities, however those activities are defined.
This growth in the prison population is another effect of NCLB. Practically all high school courses are now academic, with a very light sprinkle of P.E. and electives. For every kid, whether they have the ability or interest in the academics. Used to be kids could learn a trade in high school, and come out with a decent job, ie auto mechanic or carpenter. Now, the kids not interested in or able to master the academics simply drop out with no socially redeeming skills.
This inherently leads to crime.
burnspbesq @ 21
These are not victimless crimes
burnspbesq @ 21
He didn’t say that at all.
Sellin drugs to school kids is probably a “real” crime. Sellin em ta old people?- not so much..
The aztecs had a death sentence for anyone under fifty who drank alcohol. AFTER fifty- you could drink as much as you liked…
So maybe sellin drugs ta old people (55plus) is OK.
BigMitch @ 23
Along similar lines, white collar crime dwarfs blue collar crime in the sheer dollar amounts, yet, blue collar criminals face much harsher sentences and are prosecuted much more vigorously than white collar criminals!!!
The alternative to the gray or black market is the military.
BigMitch @ 17
From my last post
But mandatory sentencing laws (including 3 strikes laws) has also really driven up prison populations. BigMitch @ 17
From my last post:
“80 percent of the increase in the federal prison population from 1985 to 1995 can be attributed to drug convictions (USDOJ 1997)”
A lot of it, of course, has to do with much harsher sentencing with much less judicial discretion in sentencing. But, of course, that’s a choice.
Certainly it’s true that the US appears to be a more violent society than most others, but that alone isn’t enough to explain high incarceration rates.
It’s also worth noting that crime leads to crime. You criminalize drugs, and you also get a lot violence along with that, you get huge amounts of corruption along with it and so on. When something is illegal, people can’t enforce contracts legally, so they have to use violence. They need to pay off cops and prosecutors. They need to launder money.
One study found that most of the reason why marijuana is a gateway drug is because to get marijuana you have to go to dealers who also have the illegal stuff. Where marijuana is made legal, its gateway effect disappears.
And so on. When you make one thing illegal, you almost always create a lot more crime than expected.
Hearth Moon @ 26
You could also make a case that the prison-industrial complex causes poverty. Or at least aids and abetts it. For one thing, most prisons are built in towns which have lost their industrial base to overseas factories, so they think the prison will provide jobs and save the town. Problem is that the pay for prison work is generally very low (and produces people like Lindy England). Another is that when a person goes to prison, the entire economic life of a family is disrupted and stretched, often beyond belief. Add to that the stigma of a prison record (really hard to get a job when one has a record) the whole process becomes a self-reinforcing and very closed system.
As a former probation officer in Placer County, Ca. several years ago, much of my time was eaten up with people who were convicted of non-violent felonies. Doesn’t look like things have changed much. I have no regrets not being in that business any longer.
imo it is really irresponsible to equate licensing laws which prevent people who aren’t trained as doctors from practicing medicine, with “enforcing some form of monopoly.” I think the reasons are fairly obvious.
If ya pay half the town to feed and guard the other half–well ya got somethin a lot like social*sm- free medical care- free food- free orange clothes (or blue for the other half)..with a little massage- it could be a great system,
Our rural NE Iowa town incacerates prisoners at a correctional facility and regularly has an entirely different racial and class makeup from the middle class town. The inmates work in the community and are resented by the laboring class that competes for the same jobs.Most inmates are in for drug offenses.
Great article Ian. Great sociological perspective
Steve-AR @ 16
Victimless generally means that “you have the right to do bad things to yourself”, because you are presumed to give consent.
I’m not a big fan of prostitution, but better it be done legally, inspected, licensed and in the open so you can get the pimps out of it (there are also good public health reasons.)
As for drugs – the cure is worse than the disease, shall we say. With the same caveat that should apply to alcohol (don’t drive, if you get violent you’re responsible) in most cases I support decriminalization of milder forms of drugs – cannabis, opium, coca-infused drinks, clean amphetamines (I have problems with the last, but better than meth.)
Dang, where’s Ian? I hope he jumps in at some point!!!
My mom is Texican (she looks Mexican-American but her family was in Texas before white people came) and she is in jail for selling drugs to an undercover cop. She will be there for about 9 years. Her prison is near Houston, but not in the city. More like before you even get to the suburbs.
My biggest complaint is that her prison doesn’t have any psych services and the only drug program is from volunteers that go there. So she is not getting any of the help she really needs and probably she’s still using drugs.
CTuttle @ 39
Oops! Spoke too soon! Sorry, Ian!!!
Want to fight crime? Attack poverty. And the conditions that lead to poorness.
Hearth Moon @ 26
True. I did mention it as a sideline (poor people get charged and convicted more).
There are a lot of things that cause crime – demographics (spikes in young adult males always cause spikes in crime rates), anomie (loss of social ties), poverty, discrimination, and so on. Perhaps I’ll touch on some of them at another time. But the “we choose to make this criminal” part is something obvious people tend to overlook so I thought it worth an essay of its own.
SnarKassandra @ 40
how can it be better said than this?
But there are things you shouldn’t do if you are a single mom, especially if you have little kids. Cause you think you are only hurting yourself but you’re not.
July 27, 2007
Militarism – America’s State Religion
One soldier’s literary blasphemy
War and Madness
Justin Raimando shining the light.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11356
Elliott @ 19
Except for leaving the baby to bake in the car, in which case men get off easier:
SnarKassandra @ 40
How did your mom get into drugs in the first place? Was it people she hung out with? Did she have a job? What kind of education did she receive?
LS @ 48
She went to college and had a good job doing bookkeeping and accounts for an insurance company. I don’t know when she started drugs but I know she had a lot of psych problems for a long time. Then when my dad moved out she went over the edge.
Ian Welsh @ 38
Exactly! I don’t advocate legalization of drugs, I merely advocate sensible legislation to curb it! Treat it as a Misdemeanor if you must, but, don’t make it a felonious offense!
And she hung out with middle class moms and ladies from work and from my school.
A lot of problem with non-violent crime, or any crime for that matter, is that those convicted, do not have the resources available to buy justice.
There is a lot of entrapment too, especially of parolees (at least if their stories are to be believed) I have heard enough anecdotal evidence to believe that there has to be at least a germ of truth to some of these stories, after all this IS Texas.
I have see too many people committed to the straight and narrow, new babies, working hard, going to school, almost at a degree, and Bang! off for a double deuce they go…
Ian says at #33, “It’s also worth noting that crime leads to crime. “
Very true. And the discriminatory effect of the criminal law has a self-reinforcing effect, too. The odds of an African American inner city dweller reaching the age of 50 without being arrested approach zero. More than one out of 10 African American males at any given time are either in prison, or on probation or parole. Add in those that are unemployed because of their criminal record, and you can see that the next generation is severely disadvantaged in its loss of male role models, other than criminals.
The book, Freakenomics examined the question of why so many drug dealers who were arrested were living at home. The answer it turns out is that drug dealing is not very lucrative except for the few at the top of the pack. For everyone else, the economics don’t make sense, but for the chance to become one of the lucky few. So, entering the drug trade is like buying a lottery ticket. The environment of despairation makes this a sensible choice, when none others present themselves.
TeddySanFran @ 47
I did not know that!
that’s just such an awful thing, what a horror.
Kathleen @ 28
What Kathleen said. Fraud (getting something by lying) is considered a crime in all societies. Lying to group members about serious things will get you ostracized in hunter/gatherer bands (whcih is a death sentence.)
What I was pointing out, however, is that some forms of social organizations create their own forms of crime. Money laundering, for example, is something societies without money didn’t really worry about much. Drunk driving is a huge concern for us. Heresy is a crime in religious societies. Not getting a driver’s license, licensing your dog, asking for permission to build an addition to your own house, heck most laws around private property, all laws around stock companies, usury, etc, etc…
I have an addiction. To the show “Weeds”. And I don’t use drugs of anykind.
Have you seen the latest? That pot causes ‘reefer-madness’.
SnarKassandra @ 51
If you wouldn’t mind, what particular drug was she accused of selling, Cassie?
Ian@33
Really messed that one up, hopefully what I was trying to say comes through.
SnarKassandra @ 49
Mental health is a huge problem and, of course, complex, because often when you seek help for the problem, the first thing they give you is medication. Then when you are faced with obstacles in your life, it is a familiar way to cope – illegal drugs or prescription.
Elliott @ 55
Huge increase in these cases, according to the article, just when we decided kids went in the back seat. Busy people simply forget, apparently; but dads are presumed to be baby-sitting. Moms, on the other hand — “How could a mother do such a thing?” — are punished more severely.
rwcole @ 30
Works for me! Of course, I’m fifty-five…
CTuttle @ 59
Heroin.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 58
You mean this oldie but goodie?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM_vLk1I6G4
Then there is the whole issue of parity for mental health insurance coverage which would have saved many people, including perhaps Kassy’s mom.
oddmommy @ 36
In economic terms there’s no difference. And you might be surprised at what studies have found about differences in outcomes between being treated by a nurse, or nurse practition, and a doctor.
More to the point, you have a doctor shortage. The reason you have a doctor shortage, among others, is that the AMA deliberately tries to restrict the number of doctors. Increase them and your health care costs would go down.
A lot.
Nor is the evidence, contra the AMA, all that convincing that quality of care would go down. The difference between straight A’s and having a b or two in your undergraduate work is just noise and probably reflects ass kissing skills more than anything else/
BigMitch @ 66
Except she would never tell the doctor what she was really thinking or doing.
Data mining was the descrepancy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07…..ref=slogin
Sentences vary when kids die in hot cars
MANASSAS, Va. – Kevin Kelly is a law-abiding citizen who, much distracted, left his beloved 21-month-old daughter in a sweltering van for seven hours. Frances Kelly had probably been dead for more than four hours by the time a neighbor noticed her strapped in her car seat; when rescue personnel removed the girl from the vehicle, her skin was red and blistered, her fine, carrot-colored hair matted with sweat. Two hours later, her body temperature was still nearly 106 degrees.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..eft_to_die
kathleen @ 9
Bush pardoned Libby for perjury. As the Bush criminal conspiracy is unraveled there is always the possibility that outright treason will be revealed in which case Libby, Cheney et al may wish they had a prison sentence as opposed to the sentence for treason during a time of war. If it ever comes to light that U.S. assets lost their lives as a result of the conspiracy to reveal a CIA undercover operative there are those that might be dancing at the end of a rope.
SnarKassandra @ 64
Oof, sorry I asked!!! I truly feel for you and her!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
Yeah, I saw the headlines on CNN and MSNBC. But in the body of the article, once again as always, the supporters of the study and the methodology and everything else are those with a vested interest in it being true. IOW same ol’ same.
I don’t want my mom’s sentence reduced. I want her to be in a psych hospital or a drug rehab.
CTuttle @ 66
Great vid. Actually I was thinking of this ;0):
Pot may hike risk of psychosis, research finds
Even limited use could up chance of serious mental illness by 40 percent
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19980923/
SnarKassandra @ 74
And providing that for her would be the effective way to deal with her problem.
Why is that so hard to sell?
hugs for you, Cassie
There are no special licenses required, that I know of, to become a witch doctor—or even just a witch…Eventually, of course, there will be an American Association of WitchDoctors (AAW) to develop educational requirements and state exams- but for now it’s wide open.
Elliott @ 76
Hugs back.
I hope my comments have not been too much of a downer. I don’t want to hijack the thread or kill it.
SnarKassandra @ 78
You’re right in the heart and soul of it.
Oh, boy. I’m probably going to be banned from FDL for what I’m about to write.
Just so everyone knows up-front, I’m pro-choice — not knee-jerk pro-choice, but considered and solidly pro-choice.
But I do disagree with this proposition.
But, of course, the entire debate around abortion is a moral and religious argument….
Here’s why I disagree. A huge part of the debate, among both lawyers and non-lawyers, is whether Roe v. Wade is a good decision from a constitutional law standpoint.
Some believe and argue forcefully that Blackmun got it wrong, and injected new material into the Constitution, in writing that the Ninth Amendment creates a penumbra of privacy into which the state may not intrude. Those who feel Blackmun got it wrong say they find no such penumbra in the language or the history of the Ninth Amendment.
Of course, many (if not the great, great majority) of those on the right have seen Roe v. Wade as a liberal overthrow of the government.
Hence, the huge division along religious fault lines in this country.
FWIW, I think what happened in South Dakota is most interesting and instructive. Freedom to choose was put to the voters. Freedom to choose won. In a very red state.
FWIW, I think that freedom to choose would win at the ballot box, today, in almost all if not all the states. (As I understand, there is only 1 abortion clinic in all of Mississippi even under Roe v. Wade.) That, IMHO, would be a tremdendouly good thing for the American people. It would go a very long way, again IMHO, toward eliminating what I regard as a very dangerous red state-blue state divide.
SnarKassandra @ 69
Right. Mitch, you’re a really intelligent guy, I know, from all of your blogging and comments, but, I’m glad Cassie said that. Human behavior is different from intellectual knowledge.
No offense meant.
Did I miss something? What is the connection to abortion?
SnarKassandra @ 74
I hear you. Contra what people think, those things do help.
A related issue, and another choice is what happened in Toronto (and many other places). Back in the 80’s and 90’s the provincial government decided to slash expenses by getting rid of a lot of long term mental health beds.
The result – more homelessness and more violence and more crime on Toronto’s streets. And the city does not have the budget to deal with such things – especially since as the main city in the province, the majority of people with problems wind up in Toronto. It can’t afford to take all the seriously mentally ill and destitute people in the province and put them in long term care.
Seen it with one of my friends, who is schizophrenic. In and out. In and out. The meds have awful side effects, so he hates taking them. In time he always stop, has episodes and winds up back in. As far as I know he’s never been violent, but he unquestionably doesn’t live in anything resembling the real world.
Anecdote from another friend.
“I see John (not his name) walking down the street. He sees me and heads to me. When he gets to me he says:
“Do you have a shovel I can borrow?”
“Why do you need a shovel?”
John shows him his hands which are covered in dirt and bloody, “because digging with my hands is really slow”.
“Why do you need to dig?”
“A witch buried my soul in that graveyard,” he points, “and I need to dig it up.”
Man needs supervised care, to be sure he’s getting his meds. One day he might decide some poor girl is the “witch” who stole his soul and try and try to force her to give it back. And everyone will be shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
SnarKassandra @ 79
You’re never a downer, sweetie.
I was wondering if you ever see or speak to your mother.
You’re so thoughtful and a talented writer, have you thought about writing a book about your mom?
It’s hard for me to imagine ….a working mother, hanging out with other moms, doing heroin. Pardon my naivete.
I’d suggest that
Being An As*hole Without a License
be a crime.
application fees,
license fees,
exam fees,
fines for infractions …
we could pay off the national debt in weeks.
We would just need a board of standards and practices.
hmmm …
dakine01 @ 73
This quote highlights their obvious bias:
“The researchers said they couldn’t prove that marijuana use itself increases the risk of psychosis, a category of several disorders with schizophrenia being the most commonly known.” (my bold)
Jonathan @ 80
Lots of decisions the court has done I think they got wrong. It’s a big issue because it’s driven by religious beliefs.
Can’t see why your opinion would get you banned.
Damn: Cheney’s heart device replaced
http://www.reuters.com/article…..5320070728
Dang, more wasteful spending of US tax dollars.
Kassie, more power to you for your openness.
You say your mom has 9 years to go on her sentence? I am just going to guess that her sentence was 10 years. Do you realize how unbelievably harsh that is by international standards? In Spain, the maximum sentence for any crime is 8 years, if I heard correctly on the radio the other day.
It is hard for me to imagine what, in the absense of rehab/treatment can be accomplished in 9 years that can’t be accomplished in 8, or for that matter 3.
And I do not know the level of custody that your mom is in. But, again, there’s many who are classified much more sternly than the facts would justify.
Loo Hoo. @ 70
Fox News was forced to take the four part series by Carl Cameron on Israeli based communication systems that “allegedly” have the ability to data mine U.S. government and most Americans phone calls off their websites.
200 Israeli citizens suspected belonging to organized intelligence operations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo
This report describes Israeli firms that “allegedly” generated billing data that could be used for intelligence purposes and the report described concerns that the government wiretapping program could be vulnerable to the data mining of these companies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dUoydYdOBQ
SnarKassandra @ 82
Abortion is a crime in some societies and not in others (heck, in some places and times there was essentially no opposition to abortion). Much opposition in the US is based on religious beliefs. People want to force their beliefs (you will have the baby, no matter what) on others.
I don’t talk to my mom anymore cause it is not healthy for me. The last two times I went there she said horrible things and the time before that I wanted her to comb and braid my hair like she did when I was little, but they wouldn’t let me bring in a hairbrush. I send her letters at her birthday and at mother’s day but I don’t call. My brother still does, but usually not when I am around. She said he was a coward for staying here to be my guardian instead of going to Iraq. And she said he lets me be a spoiled brat because he doesn’t force me to see her.
She is not allowed to call me.
Most people thought my mom was wonderful and charming, at least until I was in 5th grade and she lost the control to be nice to people at my school. That is the same year we lost our house.
My mom was sick first. She did the drugs because she hated herself for the way she acted when she was sick.
Big Mitch it is 9 years total. She did about half so far.
Ian Welsh @ 67
ok, but are you in favor of ANYONE…..with no qualification of any kind…….being allowed to hang out a shingle and sell “medical services” to the public?
It seems to me that when we engage in this kind of extremist, black and white ideology, we’re no better than they are.
SnarKassandra @ 75
You can thank Ronnie Reagan for destroying the mental health system.
“300,000 mentally ill in US prisons
A handful of alternative schemes has no impact on an unmanageable crisis made worse by closing most mental hospital beds”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Arch…..06,00.html
Nationally the problem is growing. There were at least 283,000 inmates classified as mentally ill in 2000, according to the justice department.
It was exacerbated by the closure of many mental institutions under the “care in the community” policy introduced in the 80s during Ronald Reagan’s presidency. (A similar policy was introduced in the UK around the same time.)
Between 1982 and 2001 the numbers of public hospital beds available for the mentally ill decreased by 69%.
demi @ 82
First of all Demi, you can call me a ‘really intelligent guy,’ all you want, and never have to say, ‘no offense meant.’ :-)
I said “perhaps” advisedly in my original post. Kassy knows her mom better than I do. But we will never know “what if.” Part of the argument for parity, is that it removes the stigma from mental health problems. If drug addiction/use were treated as a health issue rather than a criminal issue, as I believe it should be, who knows what would be the outcome?
demi @ 85
Mr. Ex-LS, had a brilliant friend years ago. He was a biology professor at a major ivy league university. He was a wonderful person from a middle-class family. He was a mountain climber, a superb athlete, and he was a heroin addict. He was, eventually, successfully rehabilitated from the heroin, but sadly died in a mountain climbing accident in his thirties.
Ian Welsh @ 92
My point is about who gets to say what the law on abortion is. Nine unelected justices? A bunch of right-wing zealots in the South Dakota legislature? Or the people?
Oldmommy
ok, but are you in favor of ANYONE…..with no qualification of any kind…….being allowed to hang out a shingle and sell “medical services” to the public?
It seems to me that when we engage in this kind of extremist, black and white ideology, we’re no better than they are.
I don’t believe I ever said I was. But I do believe that the current system isn’t serving Americans very well and that a large part of that is that the system for producing doctors operates primarily to reduce competition, not to provide care. (Why don’t you have universal healthcare? Well, one reason is that during the New Deal, when it seemed like a possibility, AMA opposition killed it deader than a doorknob.)
There are lots of professions who sell their services to the public as being able to heal people who aren’t M.D.’s.
But M.D.’s do have a nice bundle of monopoly rights, especially over drug prescription. A lot of stuff you guys need a prescription for I can get over the counter here in Canada. Even more can be gotten over the counter, say, in Brazil.
Ctuttle – heroin is actually a very common drug these days and was widely used amongst the middle class teens in the NH town we used to live in. Those of us who are older have very specific images related to Heroin but they do not reflect the current “culture” of the drug.
The “reefer madness” story was reported on the BBC the other night and they interviewed one of the researchers who admitted that they had no idea whether the subjects who were psychotic had been psychotic and then chose to smoke pot or only became psychotic after they began to smoke pot.
Does pot make people paranoid? Does heroin?
what I am trying to get at is that there IS a justification for laws to protect the public against frauds and charlatans. Whether that is abused or not, is a separate question.
LS @ 98
Sounds kinda like Stevie Ray Vaughn. Kicked the stuff and making a come back and then, bam, that plane crash.
Ian, do you have any evidenced for your assertion about the AMA controlling physician supply? If so, what years?
What decades?
Which century?
The Liasion Committee on Medical Education (LCME) is the core accrediting body for US medical schools.
The LCME is controlled by the AMA and the AAMC (American Association of Medical Colleges).
From 1984-1987 I sat on the board of the medical student component of the AAMC.
In the seventies, the med students crashed the AAMC gates – hence med students were represented – and had votig seats – on the highest level of AAMC governance and the relevant subcommitees.
The deans (Council of Deans), teaching hospital CEO’s (COTH), and various specialty societies comprised the other three votig groups within AAMC governance.
The LCME also attended the meetings (four quartely; one annual) – and I came to know the LCME reps – and many deans and hospital CEO’s.
Ian, already in the mid 80’s everyone involoved – the AAMC, the AMA, the LCME, the specialty societies – wanted to build more medical schools.
They still do.
The high-paid specialties controlled access (and their income) by controlling the number of residency training slots in the lucrative specialties. The lucrative specialties do better when the care pyramid is bigger: the greater the number of NP’s and MD’s to make referrals, the greater the income strem for the surgeons (and now, the invasive cardiologists).
The AMA supported new med schools, the AAMC supported new med schools – and the Reagan /Bush admin fought funding.
Reagan/Bush decreased the funding for existing med schools – and wholly opposed new med schools.
This fundamental equation at the Federal level has not changed (I am told) in the last twenty-five years.
Ian, the chokehold in training new primary care docs (the least wedll-paid) lies with the Feds, not the AMA (or AAMC).
Please note – there are lots of AMA policies I disagree with. I never joined – and can’t imagine I ever would.
Yet to solve problems, we need accurate info.
Moreover, admittance policies are set by each medical school. For over two decades, the trend in med school admissions has been to favor human experience and (apparent) altuism over straight A’s. The folks at the AAMC could give you lots more dats. The AMA is out of the loop in med school admission standards ( and the LCME sure ain’t asking for straigh A’s.).
US health care is a catastrophe – fixing it requires very clear delineating of problems, power, and accountabliity.
I am providing this factual correction in service of that goal.
Find Federal/State funding for med schools; if you build them, they will fill.
Myself, I’ve been teaching as volunteer faculty for over a decade: I have no fiscal interest in med school expansion – I’ll get paid the same (zero) whether there are any more new schools.]
Ian Welsh @ 68
demi @ 103
Although mountain climbing suggests a certain risk taking personality, a thrill seeker.
SnarKassandra @ 102
From my memory (that’s a joke) pot inhances whats already going on…people who are already prone to paranoia may feel it more.
I’m not a professional At All. Just sayin’ from experience. With people. Ha.
Have absolutely no knowledge of heroin. And long term use of a substance may affect the results, I think.
SnarKassandra @ 102
The only paranoia I can remember associated with pot was the paranoia of knowing I could go to jail if caught smoking it.
oddmommy @ 103
No disagreement. The question is always where the line is.
SnarKassandra @ 102
Some people experience paranoia when they use marijuana. I have never encountered anyone with that complaint on heroin. Methamphetamines most certainly can induce paranoia–especially when people go many nights without sleep.
The BBC story was touting an extremely flawed study, as Siun points out. It really strips all credibility from their cause when they try to foist off bogus “research” like that on the public. I realize that the prevailing view is that the Hoi Polloi is eaten up with the dumb ass, but please…
Alarmist cant such as that just convinces people to stop listening to them. As to the Heroin, we have had an epidemic of “cheese” here, which is apparently a mixture of heroin and Tylenol PM or Advil PM. Local stores are removing those two products from their shelves due to the high rates of pilferage.
Kirk@105
I stand duly corrected.
Tell me more about the residency issue if you will.
I live in a nice suburb of Atlanta.
When we bought our home 10 yrs ago there was,unknown to us,a meth lab in the house next door. When something like that comes to town,you don’t notice at first. With meth,the decline is fast,so stuff careens out of control within a few months if people are cooking it and doing it all the time.It’s hard to hide it for long. Other drugs are less conspicuous. Drug addiction has nothing at all to do with how affluent or”good”someone is. It’s seen as a moral failing,one that should be used to punish,humiliate and destroy the addict. That doesn’t make an addict stop.
If we spent just half of the money we spend on prisons on real,compassionate and non profit driven mental health care and mental health services the whole country would benefit.We might even see a decline in violence and messed up families. Even if you didn’t know anyone with those issues(yeah,fat chance,stop fibbing to yourself)you’d still benefit as a member of this society.
I have to go but I will be back for late night. Ian thank you for talking about this.
I wrote about my mom a little bit here and here.
Folks who used marijuana years ago–and not since–may be unaware of how much stronger its effects are now, as stuff being cultivated/sold is a lot different.
(Some of the people I treat as a psychologist are substance abusers.)
anangryoldbroad @ 112
yes please!
Siun @ 101
I fully understand, having resided here in Hawai’i for so long, I’m only aware of Coke, Crack, Ice, and Pakalolo! Very little Heroin is used here! The herbage is the extent of my personal experience!
Bye, Kassie. Thanks for the friendship notice today! ; )
Re: Abortion.
Many people think that the worst thing that could happen to the religious right is for Roe v. Wade to be reversed. The result would be that states would have to decide, and the evidence is that if put to a vote, abortion would be legal in nearly all states.
Roe v Wade, and the “activist judges” meme are rallying points for the religious right, though statistically, the judges they like are more likely to take an activist role by striking down congressional laws. Well, nobody said that righties had to make sense!
On Jonathon’s bigger point — that some opposition to Roe v. Wade — is based on the fact that it is a poorly reasoned decision, I
say bullshitrespectfully disagree. People who oppose abortion do so on ethical grounds. I might say religious, but ethical is perhaps more respectfull. They will use any argument, including attacking the logic of the trimester standard. But don’t expect them to scrutinize the latest abortion case (upholding bans on late-term abortions, with no exceptions for health of mother.) The logic there was nothing to write home about, and the respect for precedent was totally lacking.True it is that the words, “right to privacy” are not explicit in the Constitution. But there is ample precedent to uphold the idea that the right to be left alone is at the core of freedom. The justices did not pull Roe v Wade out of their judicial asses.
In colonial times, abortion before quickening was not illegal, nor was it controversial. This is something rarely remarked upon by the “original intent” crowd. Laura Doty @ 115
I have heard that it is stronger. But I assume people smoke less of it, because it is more expensive, too. I don’t believe people get more stoned. I can’t even imagine it. Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds AND emeralds???
demi @ 104
Exactly. Tragedy.
Interesting, just got my new phone books, and the ads stuck to the books iclude one for bail bonds and one for attorneys. DUI, Crimiinal, bankruptcy, accidents and injury. Just and interesting coincidence.
Hugs, Cassie.
There was a movie about a mother in jail, who constantly rejected her teenage daughter when she came to visit her? I thought it was Streep, but maybe it was Sarandon. Cassie’s story reminds me of it.
People who smoke grass start to think that the cops are all out of em.
Checking out other sites, I thought this article might speak to this thread:
Iraq Suicides
NOTE: E&P editor Greg Mitchell has covered numerous Iraq-related suicides in the past year, including cases involving Alyssa Peterson (who objected to interrogation techniques), Col. Ted Westhusing (who had complained about contractor and soldier abuses), and Linda Michel (who died in upstate New York after medication was denied), among others.
my bold.
The prison system seems to be entirely about punishment(pretty much to the point of a prison being far more lawless than the environment the criminals came to prison from)with little or no thought to what will happen when people leave the system. “Lock em up and throw away the key”isn’t really much of a solution.
I know there are programs in many prisons that have worked wonders and helped people to heal somewhat,but they are not the norm and not as common as we need them to be. But now that there’s a “prison industry”I fear that there is almost a vested interest in seeing to it that crime is exacerbated rather than stopped.
BigMitch @ 119
I can’t say from first-hand experience, however a close friend of mine told me that there is NO comparison between today’s weed and yesteryear’s. He was completely shocked at how much more loaded he got.
Sad to say, I meet kids–yes, kids, 7,8, 9 year olds–who use this drug ten or more times daily. Some teenagers I know smoke as much as 15-20 times a day, seven days a week. Potency, dosage and frequency are all up. I’ve been working in this field for almost 25 years, and had a doctorate for 15. While stats show the numbers of teenagers using drugs is falling, my empirical experience is that those who abuse drugs (ie, not just experimenting with them) are starting younger and using harder.
“out after em”
Whoops
LS @ 122
Nevermind the paranoia, the guilt would get me first.
Dangers of a cornered George Bush
http://www.informationclearing…..e18081.htm
I really do not think there has been enough research into the effects of smoking marijuana
Ian Welsh @ 112
Ian, I so respect your work – thanks for being able to hear this new info.
The first (massively expensive) stage of medical education is med school – graduates leave with their MD’s.
And almost no state will license someone right out med school to practice. Med school doesn’t (and in for years, can’t) teach even basic specialties well enough for non-lethal outcomes.
MD’s become practicing physicians in their residency training. Residency (from three to ten years, depending on the patient care specialty) is training in the MD’s chosen area of practice (”internal” medicine, ob/gyn, neurology, pediatrics, psychiatry, rehab, surgery).
Sub-specialties require yet more training (cardiology and GI are medical subspecialties; neurosurgery and orthopedics are surgical subspecialties).
Training in the specialty years (post MD) requires even more face time with fully trained and practicing docs (in the specialty) than does training in med school.
Sub-specialty training takes even more resources.
In family medicine and internal medicine and psych, the pools are quite large. IN lucrative medical subspecialties (cardiology) and surgical subspecialties (cosmetic plastic surgery, for example) the pool of those who completed training is far smaller.
IN surgical sub-specialites, the sub-speciality societies (the guilds, so to speak) appear to oppose expansion of their training pools. I personally have heard surgical sub-specialists in academic medicine oppose expanding training because they believed it would decrease their own incomes.
[I despise any physician who makes decisions to restrict trainign in orderto make more money. I also wonder why they think they won’t need care after they have retired, but that’s another matter.]
By contrast, the transplant surgeons and the cadiologists/nephrologists/oncologists for whom I consulted for years embraced expansion of sub-specialty training.
Sitting in a massive academic health center, every week I’d see someone from an outside hospital whose doc was doing they best they could – and didn’t know enough to help the patient stay well (or alive).
Knowing that someone has had catastrophic manic episodes – or progression of their poorly managed diabetes to the point they required amputatioj – does wonders to inform MD’s about the need for greater access to medical and surgical sub-specialists.
The only fossils I’m aware of who still oppose expansion of residency training programs for economic reasons are in dermatology, opthamology, and various other procedure reimbursed surgical specialties.
My specialty (psychiatry) has chronic shortages. Every day I drive around San Francisco, I see the tragic results.
More training programs, please, sir?
;)
hope this helps…
nonplussed @ 111
Steady on. It was a metastudy and it used a reasonable methodology to establish its conclusions. It established a good fit for its model of causation. It interpreted the statistics to achieve a particular outcome, but who doesn’t? It was not particularly “flawed”, but the reporting of it has been.
Laura Doty @ 126
Well then, I yield to your superior knowledge based on experience.
Here’s an observation: When I moved to Alaska, 1976, pot was legal here. It was considered to be within one’s privacy rights to posses and use within one’s own home. The federal law was to the contrary, but it was never enforced. By the way, it was a court decision that controlled this. When the legislature overturned the court case, violence and cocaine/crack use went up dramatically.
When I worked at a Public Defender-type agency some kids broke into my synagogue and vandalized it. There was evidence that they were smoking pot, too. All of the lawyers huddled, and none of us could remember a single instance of a crime being committed under the influence of pot, other than possession of pot or some similar regulatory offense.
Kathleen @ 129
That’s because it’s illegal. *g*
rwcole @ 127
Thought you meant the cops were out of em and wanted to arrest people to get some!
Kathleen @ 130
Agreed. Case in point, feds practically classify hemp and cannabis in the same illegal light.
Kathleen @ 130
The main effects that I recall (and I think there has been a fair bit of research) are reduced memory and issues related to smoking. Could be wrong, but last time I looked into a few years ago that seemed to be the consensus. Actually does do more harm than we thought, but still less than alcohol or tobacco (in different ways.)
Kathleen @ 130
I’ve done way too much “research.” What would you like to know?
BigMitch @ 137
what were we talking about again……?
Laura Doty @ 126
It’s much stronger. Like drinking vodka vs drinking a strong beer.
We protect children from alcohol. Not entirely successfully, but the notion that they need protecting from it is not entirely wrong, I think. The same protection could be extended to weed. There’s a shadow over cannabis use in young people. I’m inclined to the view that people with pre-existing mental illness are predisposed to risky behaviour but I’m not certain that would account for the whole difference. Heavy users of weed aren’t too clear what’s going on anyway: that they might progress from being generally fucked to being paranoid shouldn’t be a surprise, particularly given that smoking it has to be furtive to some extent.
TeddySanFran @ 133
No, that’s why it’s illegal.
Kathleen @ 129
Interesting, Kathleen. An exerpt:
If a patient came into my consulting room missing an arm, the first question I would ask is, “What happened to your arm?” The same would be true for a patient who has no guilt, no conscience. I would want to know what happened to it.
No Conscience
George W. Bush is without conscience, and it would require a lengthy series of clinical sessions to find out what happened to it. By identifying himself as all good and on the side of right, he has been able to vanquish any guilt, any sense of doing wrong.
In Bush on the Couch I gave examples illustrating that remarkable lack of conscience. From his youthful days blowing up frogs with firecrackers to his unapologetic public endorsement of torture, there has been no change.
Ian Welsh @ 136
There is a correlation to increased mental illness. The dispute is over whether this is an outcome of smoking weed or of reverse causation.
The chief medical concern is that it is often smoked with tobacco, and leads to nicotine addiction.
There is a greater incidence of some cancers.
There are some issues with memory. But I can’t remember what they were.
That’s it, so far as I know.
oddmommy @ 36
oldmommy, this is the first time I think I’ve disagreed with you… can you give me an obvious reason:
temporary location out of state: new state says law requries an appointment for my teeth cleaning MUST be followed by three minutes ($165) with the dentist…
why is it okay for the hygenist to clean my teeth ($55) and her employer gets dessert?
There are some issues with memory. But I can’t remember what they were.
Ha!!
Kathleen @ 130
I really do not think there has been enough research into the effects of smoking marijuana
I think that its effect on the pizza-delivery industry is pretty well established.
How common is it for prison systems to be privatized like they are in the US?
It just seems so odd to me – used as I am to prisons etc. being run by the government.
BigMitch @ 137
I would like to know where are the munchies?
njr @ 143
well, as I explained above, my concern was really directed to protecting the public against people holding themselves out as medical (or other professional service) providers when they have no qualifications at all.
Believe me, I am NO friend of piddly-ass licensing requirements. Because I was fool enough to get my law license in NY 20 years ago, I get hammered with a f****g $300 “biannual dues” fee every two years, even though I never have and never will practice law in NY state (and am licensed in DC where I do practice). I can’t get out of it until I stop practicing law entirely, or die, because NY has no “inactive” status.
I worked as a care provider for adolescent boys in a mental hospital. When the subject of marijuana came up, here’s what I told them:
The most difficult work in the world is to turn an adolescent boy into a man. And that is the job that you have been tasked with. It will take some trial and error, and it will take hard work. It will require that you be somewhat disatisfied with the way things are, and a willingness to make a change. If every time things get tough, if every time you are disatisfied with things as they are, you retreat into a cloud of wacky-weed smoke, you may get through the day, but you will face the same problems on the next day. And you will never do the hard work that needs to be done.
Don’t know if it worked. But it had the nice feature of being sincere.
Any word on how Cheney is doing?
Believe me, I am NO friend of piddly-ass licensing requirements. Because I was fool enough to get my law license in NY 20 years ago, I get hammered with a f****g $300 “biannual dues” fee every two years, even though I never have and never will practice law in NY state (and am licensed in DC where I do practice). I can’t get out of it until I stop practicing law entirely, or die, because NY has no “inactive” status.
Are you saying that if you do not keep your NY license in place, you cannot practice anywhere?
I’ve never heard of such a thing. Is that common? (I’ve never sought a license in any other state)
oddmommy @ 149
You put your finger on it. Nickel and dimeing these sort of “taxes” on whatever you “practice” as a “professional”. Why can’t your credentials be enough?
New Pach upstairs on HoJo the American Embarrassment
BigMitch @ 150
While I don’t think we ever had a drug talk at the boarding school I went to, you remind me a lot of some of the masters there.
And much as I hated that place, that’s a compliment.
Loo Hoo. @ 151
I heard that they put his pacemaker battery in backwards – and that he’s now growing younger…
oddmommy @ 149
You put your finger on it. Nickel and dimeing these sort of “taxes” on whatever you “practice” as a “professional”. Why can’t your credentials be enough? dakine01 @ 154
Nooooooooooo…wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
LS @ 153
Because it costs money to run a professional association. And the self-regulating professional association is the essence of what makes something a profession – maintaining standards of practice, investigating malpractice, etc.
jayt @ 152
If I didn’t pay my NY dues I would be subject to “disciplinary action.” I am not sure if that would have any effect on my DC license, but in the work I do I frequently have to apply for pro hac vice admission to courts in other states, and those applications always require you to certify that you are not, and never have been, subject to disciplinary action by any state bar.
I don’t know if it’s common. I do know that many states recognize an “inactive” status.
Pach is up:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..arassment/
oddmommy @ 159
Better check that. I bet D.C. has reciprical discipline with NY.
Kathleen from ages and ages ago:
Kennedys have a Boston Brahmin accent. That would be associated with tons of money, a touch of arrogance and getting away with things. Eye-rolling stuff, not skin crawling stuff.
Yeah, I’m aware of the Kennebunkport protests. That’s a ways away, and I’m the 24 hr backup for the hospice care my Mom is on (my Dad can’t pick her up anymore; and he’s not much of a cook, either). So, I rarely get out for more than a few hours at a time.
GordonM @ 162
GordonM, bless you.
Hoping many people have your back – and tend your heart.
Is this a crime?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291258,00.html
One issue not addressed is how laws and incarceration are used to perpetuate the existence of under-class(es).
Many societies have underclasses and seem to want to maintain their existence (maybe just so the over class can feel superior.)
Those in the underclass are generally seen as less intelligent, more criminal, more lazy, less moral, etc. than proper folks and are generally less healthy, less fed, less educated etc.
Irish and Italians in the 1800s were in this class and the overs tried to keep them there.
I’ve seen studies of some place in Central America that had a partial-Spanish over class and a Native underclass. When some of the underclass moved away to an area where they weren’t constantly being kept down, their children became much taller, healthier, and intelligent.
So one of the reasons for laws and incarceration is to keep the underclass in the underclass. Letting them know there is no way out can lead to behaviors that enforce the need to keep them there.
Kirk @ 153: Thanks.
BTW, I wanted to add a general remark on what you were discussing with Ian. It seems to me that the residency experience, law school, even the training I went through > 25 years ago at EDS, all share something in common with boot camp. They are designed to (1) create a sense of “us” that says we’ll stick together even if one of us f*’ed up; and (2) we’re better than the rest of the world, so we deserve to charge them up the yin yang for even talking to them. Right behind are all those fields (like economics) where they make up a complex vocabulary so only “experts” will be able to understand (that they don’t know squat… oops, that just snuck out – sorry Ian).
In the medical field, it’s no longer MD’s that hold the power. Probably because it takes some huminitarian motives to get into the field, so for most of them being prosperous is enough – they don’t need to milk it for everything they can. So it’s the HMO’s and HCA’s who have grabbed the reins. I came to realize the power had shifted when I saw that there’s a not insignificant number of docs coming out for single payer.
MonkeyBoy @ 165
I think the primary reason for an underclass is that it gives the elites a threat against the lower middle class. It works out to “Do as we say (eg, go fight in Iraq), or become one of them“. As long as the lower middle class sees the underclass as a threat, they’ll do as they’re told. As soon as they see the underclass as possibly kindred spirits, the elites are in serious trouble.
GordonM, you are most welcome.
I hope you, your dad, mom, and family do as well as can be in her remaining days.
I sure agree with your observation about the outcome of (residency/”fellow”ship) medical education: boot camp.
I disagree about the purpose.
What used to be “tradition” is now recognized as a lethal schedule – and the gatekeepers – Congress – won’t put out the money to fix it.
So – if you’re lucky – your resident only worked 80 hours that week.
And the insurance/drug/ medical device execs make millions.
And we die – needlessly. Avoidably. Tragically.
And the residents die, too. Going home so damn tired they die on the road. Every year.
Hey – low taxes, right?
Well before I popped up at the AAMC in 1983(4?) academic medicine was trying to fix the result.
Hahnemann Medical College (now merged), UCLA, UCSF, AAMC, American Medical Student Association….
just about any group I’ve ever been around says they want to change the result.
Deceasing resident hours [down to 80 per week] could help.
The ACGME [Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education] produced “guidelines” (after two decades of warfare) in 2003:
# An 80-hour weekly limit, averaged over four weeks.
# An adequate rest period, which should consist of 10 hours of rest between duty periods.
# A 24-hour limit on continuous duty, with up to six added hours for continuity of care and education.
# One day in seven free from patient care and educational obligations, averaged over four weeks.
# In-house call no more than once every three nights, averaged over four weeks.
# Some specialties have more restrictive standards, reflecting patient care and educational demands.
* Programs must ensure that reducing resident hours will not reduce educational time in order to meet patient service obligations.
Unfortunately, these changes reduce the number of residents available for patient care – thus requiring more residents per year.
More money for each patient’s care – higher costs for the hopsital/ residency program /university / HMO.
Who knew “guidelines” meant “edentulous”?
Well, Rep. Conyers and Sen. Corzine – according to the AAMC.
And – sadly – by 2005 medical education and the AAMC were so battered they couldn’t afford to pay for the changes.
GordonM @ 166
I dissagree with you totally. I am a middle-of -the -road guy. I bought a Jaguar XJ-S 12 cylindar convertable for 10,000.00 in poor shape 7 years ago. I put a lot of my own tine and money into the car. I was caught speeding twice and finaly caught DUI once. I am not trying to excuse myself for driving drunk or speeding. I deserved everything I got. But the court screwed me everytime they found out I have a Jaguar. When I went to court each time I told the truth about the charges against me and was given the maximum. But others some charged with repeat or multiple offenses were let off because they lied and were offensive to the policeman. Race was often used and in one case I observed when a person was speeding through a mall parking lot in excess of 70 mph the black girl was dismissed. This is not equal justice. I would have done better if I had looked like a biker, not shaved, and worn dirty jeans. It is shameful.
We protect children from alcohol. Not entirely successfully, but the notion that they need protecting from it is not entirely wrong, I think.
There are few in europe, or from europe who agree who agree. Becuase alcoholic drinks are not much special in europe, there is little of the US misuse.
Prohibition in any form does not prevent use of a commidity. All Prohibition does is change the risk/reward ratio of dealing in the commodity.
Drugs, alcohol, licences, anything.
Kirk – thank you for the detailed reply. Another thing to thank Conyers for. I hope it comes up again soon. I will hound my Congresscritters when it does.
And my Mom is actually quite cheerful about the whole thing. In some ways I think she’s waiting for my Dad to reconcile himself. Sometimes it’s scary, but it’s also very touching to watch them try to do their very best for each other.
Ian,
A very thoughtful post. Thanks. This is a subject near and dear to me, as my youngest son is currently in jail. I wish I could say that I felt positive about his future, but, as you say, it’s very hard to get a good job once you have a record. I’m in HR, so I know how many companies do background checks. When he gets out, he’s got a steep road ahead of him, and I don’t feel very hopeful.
He has received little psychological help while incarcerated. They stopped giving him his bipolar meds, I’m sure to save money. But, being that he doesn’t want to accept that he’s bipolar, I’m sure he was more than happy to go along with that. Just like in middle and high school, he doesn’t like being singled out and sent for his meds. I guess that’s a guy thing.
On a related topic – I read an article a week or two ago about some long-term research that showed a correlation with crime rates and levels of lead. The researchers looked at several cities throughout the world, not just the US, and found a correlation between high lead levels and crime, and between declining crime when there had been lead remediation (replacing windows in old buildings, etc.). It was interesting. High lead levels corresponded with increases in crimes that involved lack of impulse control, inability to stop yourself from doing dumb things.
That recent article about marijuana and psychosis I thought had been funded by big pharma. I discounted it.
good post, ian. as a person with some ‘in’sight about prison, i laud your efforts to enlighten.
imo, the prison paradigm is essentially a control trip, necessary to moderate real crime with real victims. after that, it’s all about exploitation. last i heard, the feds charge 40 g’s a year to maintain one prisoner. states average about 25 g’s.
indeed, crime pays.
peas!
What is that “zed” crap at the beginning of each comment thread?
I read something recently about a proposal to use inmates to replace a shortage of “illegals” for menial jobs. Mostly in agriculture.
The prisons would provide inmates for a few dollars an hour (presumably enough to pay the cost of incarceration). The inmates would get a few dollars a day (enough to buy candy bars and cigarettes). And agribusiness would have a reliable cheap and _legal_ source of labor.
I can’t believe nobody has seen the potential of this system before. It’s kind of a replacement for slavery when you think about it without all the angst of human rights concerns.
The numbers in the prison population can even be controlled to some extent through new laws and sentencing guidelines. Need more cheap labor? Lock em up for longer!
The best part? The biggest chunk of prisoners are young, poor, Black/Hispanic men. Exactly the part of the population you would want to enslave. And nobody cares about them!!
Brilliant really.
jayt @ 156
That is too frightening to take in.
Frank33 @ 148
BM great example for those young boys
Oklahoma kiddo @ 43
One of the arguments the Right has used for a very long time is that the Left is immoral and irresponsible because they favor less prison time and simply letting people behave badly. It’s part of their argument against Liberalism.
They also say they protect the individual liberty of Americans by fighting for smaller government, less taxes and less regulation (Nanny government).
There’s a major contradiction in calling for less Nanny government and for more prison time with the prison guards acting as nannies. I suppose anything that sounds rough and tough appeals to them unless it’s justice for white collar criminals.
But, I think a Progressive take on this issue isn’t to simply call for less prison time or decriminalizing certain activities, it’s to aim for eradication of the conditions which lead to the worst kinds of behavior.
In other words, I agree with OKK and John Edwards that we should fight Poverty, do more to limit gun availability and teach kids about the harmful effects of alcohol, tobacco, marijuana and other dangerous drugs (even prescription drugs).
The peculiar thing (at least so far as the political rhetoric arguments go) about this is that Progressives want more commerce, not less. We just want it to benefit everbody and not just .05% of the population.
And, for people with a drug problem there’s no doubt we would like to offer assistance — a hand up, not a hand-out. Similarly, we’d like to help anyone who is having a very tough time, whether from drug addiction, homelessness, ill health without health care or otherwise. Liberals also support that and Conservatives say they’re against it, but in the long run will come to support it fully (just as they do most things Liberals or Progressives have instituted, like setting national park lands aside, Social Security, equal rights, Clean Air & Water, financial markets regulation, gov. promotion of business, anti-monopoly practices, etc.).
BTW, when did Hillary become a Modern Progressive? Was it right after she called for an anti-flag burning law?
I wonder how Barack Obama feels about decriminalizing coke use.
For that matter, I wonder if Hillary inhaled after Bill tried, but couldn’t (due to allergies).
There’s clearly a difference between traditional Liberalism and progressivism and I see absolutely no evidence of anything Hillary has proposed or supported which is indicative of Progressivism. Feel free to correct me on that if I’m wrong.
Duncan Hare @ 170
I am from Europe, and I disagree. All European nations protect children from alcohol. You are confusing southern Europeans’ lack of a booze culture with their being totally relaxed about children’s drinking.
I agree with the rest of your comment, but it doesn’t really speak to what I said, because protection and prohibition are not the same thing. “All Prohibition does is change the risk/reward ratio of dealing in the commodity.” That clearly is not all it does. I can buy alcohol from a shop down the road. I can only buy weed if my supplier is not currently in jail.