really?

Twice?

Firedogs~!

I am absolutely heartbroken that I could not work the word “impiphany” into this post.

Thrice?

congratulations Nonplussed!

What would it take for the idea of impeachment to catch fire?

Bush and Dick buggering a baby babboon on Youtube.

Or solid evidence that they ordered the death of Pat Tillman for use as propaganda against ‘Teh Enemy’.

Phule @ 7

What would it take for the idea of impeachment to catch fire?

Bush and Dick buggering a baby babboon on Youtube.

Or solid evidence that they ordered the death of Pat Tillman for use as propaganda against ‘Teh Enemy’.

The first one might work. The second one is just good ol’ political hardball, y’know.

Whatever it takes, we’ve got to do it. We’ve let these scumbags scurry into the darkness after befouling our system of government twice now.

If we’ve learned anything at all, it should be that anti-constitutional scoundrels that manage to make it to the highest rungs of power MUST be held accountable in the most public of manner, to ensure they cannot return to darken the doors of our governmental institutions.

Bill Moyers is having a good time tonight with earmarks (& Don Young at the minute).

Damnit, that should read: “most public of manners”. Damn ’s’ went missing.

nonplussed @ 10

Bill Moyers is having a good time tonight with earmarks (& Don Young at the minute).

Alaska affords a whole bunch of “old and Young” joke opportunities…

i give:
What’s “impiphany”?

What would it take for the idea of impeachment to catch fire?

YEEEEEEESSSSSSSS!

“impiphany” – going to the dictionary

Is there some Grand Colossal Fuckup Threshold that Team Bush has to exceed on their own, or is there something that Congressional Democrats and/or the netroots can do to help them along?

Yes and Yes.

Trust in Bush to do all wrong.

The trick is going to be getting it out on video.

ooooh poor Don Young. Had prostate surgery yesterday. Tough week.

Until some of the Republicans in Congress put their country before their party,
impeachment is just not going to happen.
They are the true dead enders.

i think the answer for “why?” comes from glenn greenwald and commentor Gator90:

Gator90

Isn’t it the fact of the matter that the Democrats’ strategy is to run out the clock on the Bush presidency while being just oppositional enough to keep the base sullen instead of mutinous, avoid the terrifying political risks of mounting any genuine challenge to despotic powers asserted by a despised president, hope that Bush leaves office without blowing up the world first, and hope that he is replaced by a Democrat or at least by a less despotic Republican, such that the present constitutional crisis can fade away without anyone having to do anything that might significantly upset the status quo?

It is hard to reach any other conclusion.

I think the same exact thinking applies to Iraq. Most Democrats in Congress don’t REALLY want to force the end of the war. They want to appear to oppose the war but have it linger on, so that when 2008 rolls around, the public is just as angry as the Republicans as they were in 2006 and punishes them by electing the “anti-war” Democrats.

– GlennGreenwald

if they’re right, then the answer to “what?” is a lot more pressure from us.

If you know “epiphany”, “impiphany” in this context should not be too hard to figure out…

BigMitch @ 16

ooooh poor Don Young. Had prostate surgery yesterday. Tough week.

flip-flopper. used to be against-state

Quite frankly, I’m not entirely sure why this is.

Because the American public is, in the main, a bitterly diminished thing.

…we have come to refer to ourselves as consumers. That’s what we call ourselves on TV, in the newspapers, in the legislatures. Consumers. What a degrading label for people who used to be citizens.

Our fellow citizens (if such they may be called) are largely content to remain worthless. All of the lack of outrage over the outrageous things you cite stems from that.

Maybe someday things will change. Those of us who care should keep lifting.

OT, but what the h*ll:

This just in from DKos: Lowe’s pulls advertising from O’Reilly show

selise @ 18

i think the answer for “why?” comes from glenn greenwald and commentor Gator90:

It is hard to reach any other conclusion.

I think the same exact thinking applies to Iraq. Most Democrats in Congress don’t REALLY want to force the end of the war. They want to appear to oppose the war but have it linger on, so that when 2008 rolls around, the public is just as angry as the Republicans as they were in 2006 and punishes them by electing the “anti-war” Democrats.

– GlennGreenwald

if they’re right, then the answer to “what?” is a lot more pressure from us.

I think that’s an accurate explanation of the congressional Democrats’ brilliant strategery, but I’m still not sure why the American people don’t seem more gung-ho for it.

I like your dictionary better than mine Eli. It’s way more fun! *g*

Eli @ 19

If you know “epiphany”, “impiphany” in this context should not be too hard to figure out…

oooooooo, okay.
“a sudden flash of imptution”

Ahgoo @ 14

“impiphany” – going to the dictionary

tell me what you figure out. i’m too stupid to find anything.

I think people have been lulled by the media into a catatonic state about our democracy. Earlier this week I was spouting off at work about how Gonzalez’s senate testimony did not appear on the front page of the local paper. Everyone listened silently,nodding seriously about everything I said about the Bush administration. And then I exclaimed “But look who managed to make the front page! Lindsey Lohan!” Once I said that, they all started jumping in with their opinions about Lindsey Lohan. Very sad for our democracy. So many people don’t have a clue how uniformed they have become.

tripsarecopsem @ 21

Quite frankly, I’m not entirely sure why this is.

Because the American public is, in the main, a bitterly diminished thing.

…we have come to refer to ourselves as consumers. That’s what we call ourselves on TV, in the newspapers, in the legislatures. Consumers. What a degrading label for people who used to be citizens.

Our fellow citizens (if such they may be called) are largely content to remain worthless. All of the lack of outrage over the outrageous things you cite stems from that.

Maybe someday things will change. Those of us who care should keep lifting.

So not only do we get the government we deserve, we *know* it’s the government we deserve…

I would add a third reason to why: public embarrassment of the public. A lot of people ra-ra’d for this shitstorm of a presidency. I am thinking a fair number have decided he sucks but impeachment would put more of them in front of their mirrors asking questions. That has been happening but even among those who have publicly said “I was wrong” not nearly enough get to the reality of how crazy wrong they were or what to have supported this mess really means.

So I blame the evasion of conscience as well.

punaise @ 20

BigMitch @ 16

ooooh poor Don Young. Had prostate surgery yesterday. Tough week.

flip-flopper. used to be against-state

After this operation, surging purges won’t be as urgent.

“Is it because Clinton’s impeachment was such a farce that it discredited the whole process?”

Yes, Clinton’s impeachment was an inoculation, an inadvertant inoculation, but it worked anyway.

It was meant as a payback for what we did to Nixon, but it had the added effect of sickening the people very deeply.

The congressional Democrats are now terrified of making themselves the focus of that residual revulsion.

Of course it won’t do any good to run away from their constitutional responsibilities because the people’s disgust with Bush is trumping their revulsion with impeachment as we slowly come to realise that we can’t rely on out waiting evil.

Eli @ 23

I think that’s an accurate explanation of the congressional Democrats’ brilliant strategery, but I’m still not sure why the American people don’t seem more gung-ho for it.

i haven’t found the answer to that one yet. hoping to find it in the comments here.

Did y’all ever tell downstairs?

I found myself wondering: If you polled the American people and instead of asking, “Do you favor impeachment?”, you asked, “If you could push a button to make the Bush administration go away, would you do it?”, would you get the same result?

I have this suspicion that people *do* want them gone, but they just hate the idea of impeachment.

What is missing is a Whitehouse insider to the turn on the Cheney/Bush Junta…as did John Dean,… and some indisputable evidence…like the Nixon tapes.
If this were 2005, the outrage would be intense… as in, “how can our country stand 4 more years of this.” Now Americans, perhaps naively, believe that the Junta will be gone in 16 months. And then the American restoration can begin. Or so they hope.

Watt4Bob @ 31

“Is it because Clinton’s impeachment was such a farce that it discredited the whole process?”

Yes, Clinton’s impeachment was an inoculation, an inadvertant inoculation, but it worked anyway.

In my tinfoilier moments, I sometimes wonder if it really was inadvertent.

Y’all know my brother is in the military. He has a bunch of military guys coming over tomorrow to watch sports on TV. I am gonna ask them about Pat Tillman.

Rick @ 35

What is missing is a Whitehouse insider to the turn on the Cheney/Bush Junta…as did John Dean,… and some indisputable evidence…like the Nixon tapes.
If this were 2005, the outrage would be intense… as in, “how can our country stand 4 more years of this.” Now Americans, perhaps naively, believe that the Junta will be gone in 16 months. And then the American restoration can begin. Or so they hope.

If that’s their thinking, then they better hold up their end at the polls next year.

I think the national mood is more “This sucks and I can’t wait for it to be over” than “This is intolerable and must end NOW!”

The image of outraged throngs bearing torches and pitchforks at the gates of the Whitehouse has a certain appeal to it…kind of a Bastille Day in reverse thing…

Some Guy @ 29

I would add a third reason to why: public embarrassment of the public. A lot of people ra-ra’d for this shitstorm of a presidency. I am thinking a fair number have decided he sucks but impeachment would put more of them in front of their mirrors asking questions. That has been happening but even among those who have publicly said “I was wrong” not nearly enough get to the reality of how crazy wrong they were or what to have supported this mess really means.

So I blame the evasion of conscience as well.

There’s quite a bit to ponder there. People who have been wrapped up in the moral courage of their crusade…have to face the facts and admit that they’ve been played for chumps, supported the absolute opposite of what they claimed (think Diaper Dave Vitter, moral crusader!), and have vilified people who were completely correct.

Admit and apologize, or indulge in FAUX news alternative universe?

Seems that american exceptionalism is in fact a fiction. And its firmest adherents are the ones proving that sad fact.

Eli @ 34

I found myself wondering: If you polled the American people and instead of asking, “Do you favor impeachment?”, you asked, “If you could push a button to make the Bush administration go away, would you do it?”, would you get the same result?

I have this suspicion that people *do* want them gone, but they just hate the idea of impeachment.

or maybe they remember the clinton impeachment (and not nixon), so they don’t think impeaching bush will get rid of him?

i’m grasping at straws here.

The aptly named Atlanta Journal-Constitution has this to say about The Man Who Would Be King. (Story by Kipling, wonderful movie with Sean Connery and Michael Caine.)

King George

A relatively long, serious comment for me (at least for this time of night here east of normal EDT):

For less than a year I tried to be “management” at a very dysfunctional (and large) corp. It took only a couple weeks for me to form a picture of it as a game of tennis, with the supreme directive “Get the ball out of your court and into their’s immediately“. Even if you’re guilty as hell, if you smash every complaint, every criticism, and any blame back at them (no matter how ridiculous and manufactured the response), you keep them on the defensive, and they can’t move in for the kill. Just make shit up. Anything. It doesn’t matter. They will never catch you in the meeting, even if it was designed, called and staffed to make you into dogmeat. If they do catch you later, it will be your boss hauling you in for an ass-reaming. So what? If he fired you, he’d just have to replace you. And the next guy wouldn’t be any better.

Now in fact, I ran a pretty decent ship, and after I stepped down I was complimented on the quality of my team and leadership. It was just that the corp ran on nasty internal fighting, and managers at my level were the battlefield in proxy wars between VPs. If I’d had the stomach for that shit, I could’ve done quite well, financially. Alas, I just couldn’t resolve myself to a life of coming home and doing terrible things to my cat with a fork.

But that is the norm for Republicans. And TRex has the perfect answer: “attack… attack… aaatttaack!”.

The demand for getting us out of the disastrous quagmire of the Bush administration is nowhere near the demand for getting us out of the disastrous quagmire of Iraq.

Quite frankly, I’m not entirely sure why this is. Is it because Clinton’s impeachment was such a farce that it discredited the whole process?

I’m afraid so. The big surprise is that the Democrats are allowing the Republicans to do this to them. First, the Republicans stage a monstrous farce with impeaching Clinton. And they do such a moronic job of it that it gives *impeachment* a bad name. Then a pack of their guys comes along, committing high crimes and misdemeanors left and right, and the Democrats are immobilized with fear because the Repugs have branded impeachment as stupid. Duh. Get over it, spinelss ones. In THIS case, impeachment is the RIGHT thing to do.

Bob in HI

Need to re-educate country that whole government is not at the ‘President’s pleasure.’ That is what the Wh gang did with the US Attorneys General scandal. The silly phrase ‘at the President’s pleasure’ was repeated 24/7 until most people just assumed that the Consitution just said someplace that these people were appointed, served, lived, dreamed and breathed at the ‘the President’s pleasure.’ And the corporate media seems to love this idea and flacks it endlessly.

It seems completely forgotten that the Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate appointment, and a big chunk of rules of tenure for US AGs. There have been laws aboutit, with the revision of the Patriot Act being the trouble maker in this case. How often has anyone heard it mentioned on the TeeVee that there are laws about how US AGs are appointed and the law may have been broken, or its intent violated, so that is why there is an investigation. There are more reasons why, of course, but that is the basic one.

So, need somehow to re-educate public about how government works. But, maybe public smells such stinking executive fishes at the top, that they want Congressional investigations even though they’re not sure what they are about, or why, or the rationale.

I would love a legal intro 101 on the US AG scandal on a blog someplace, with references. I know some wingnut dead enders I would like to show it to.

Eli @ 36

Watt4Bob @ 31

“Is it because Clinton’s impeachment was such a farce that it discredited the whole process?”

Yes, Clinton’s impeachment was an inoculation, an inadvertant inoculation, but it worked anyway.

In my tinfoilier moments, I sometimes wonder if it really was inadvertent.

i have only very recently come to the same suspicion.

the cheneybu$hco virus has even corrupted the decent name of Impeachment.

This is about more miserable Cheney/bush failure and do-bad-ery, so I guess it’s not off topic:

Important foreign language press coverage in Juan Cole’s blog -wonder if US press will notice.
http://www.juancole.com/2007/0…..es-in.html

Sawt al-Iraq reports that member of the Kurdistan parliament, Nuri Talabani [see link at blog, if you can read the language], insists that US economic interests are driving its heavy-handed push to make sure the Iraqi parliament signs a petroleum law in short order. He said that the US government wants special deals for US petroleum corporations in developing, producing and distributing Iraqi petroleum, and that is why it is in such a hurry. Since the US and its Iraqi allies have been involved in heavy negotiations with the Kurdistan Regional Government over the exact provisions of a petroleum law, it is plausible that Talabani has special knowledge of US goals.

Al-Hayat reports that many Iraqis simply do not believe that the US congress is serious when it votes against permanent bases in Iraq [see link at blog, if you can read the language]. Members of parliament say that they see these enormous hardened bases being built, which is practical proof to the contrary. They think the Democratic Congress is just posturing because of its struggle with the Bush White House. Shiite MP Qasim Da’ud said that, however, even in future US troops would not be accepted in Iraq, in part because the country’s neighbors are afraid of Washington’s intentions. (He is referring to Iran.)

“Chimpiphany”

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 40

People who have been wrapped up in the moral courage of their crusade…have to face the facts and admit that they’ve been played for chumps, supported the absolute opposite of what they claimed (think Diaper Dave Vitter, moral crusader!), and have vilified people who were completely correct.

Also, mild “I was mislead” CYA stuff. I have had students in the last year, college students, start openly stating their disapproval (I know, why not eariler), but qualified by “I was mislead.” I know many of them were flag sticker people before it became clear they had become losers for doing so. It makes me sad, but I fear a lot of people are more worried about how they look to themselves than about the people living through a hell we decorated.

It sounds like I’m trying to make a joke but I’m not — I thought the Downing Street Memo would be the downfall of the Bush Administration. I don’t think they ever even denied the veracity of it.

Why no?
1. No draft. Opposition to the war is theoretical.
2. War time president — wouldn’t want to not support the troops.
3. Great skill/discipline at controlling the message
4. Religious right robots — no critical thinking.
5. Fear — and the meme that we haven’t been hit since 9/11 (he takes credit for this)

What will it take?
1. If the leaders lead, the people will follow.
2. Cheney must go before or with Dumb Dubya.
3. If shooting a guy in the face won’t do it, NSA violations won’t either.
4. Something with a good story line, like a blow-job, but that’s been done. What about
T I L L M A N ?

2 reasons why Bush and Cheney continue to destroy the world.

1. Fox News propaganda and lies
2. we don’t quite have the votes in the Houses for Impeachment

We’ll all need to just wait for the video or documentary equivalent of the baboon buggery. Haven’t we had pretty much everything else already, as Eli points out?

I think it’s that what energy and outrage there is seems to be dissipated into the internet, not out in the streets and on tv where it belongs. Is the internet, where the brightest people are all pouring out our very articulate and deeply felt anger, our societal heat sink now? Or is the bigger problem how inane crap dominates the tv news (if we can still call those emasculated announcers newspeople).

Bah.

Some Guy @ 49

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 40

People who have been wrapped up in the moral courage of their crusade…have to face the facts and admit that they’ve been played for chumps, supported the absolute opposite of what they claimed (think Diaper Dave Vitter, moral crusader!), and have vilified people who were completely correct.

Also, mild� “I was mislead” CYA stuff. I have had students in the last year, college students, start openly stating their disapproval (I know, why not eariler), but qualified by “I was mislead.” I know many of them were flag sticker people before it became clear they had become losers for doing so. It makes me sad, but I fear a lot of people are more worried about how they look to themselves than about the people living through a hell we decorated.

They can’t *all* be dumber than us. We heard the same shit they did, and *we* didn’t swallow it.

“impiphany”

c’mon, guys – imp(eachment)iphany

David Robinson @ 50

It sounds like I’m trying to make a joke but I’m not — I thought the Downing Street Memo would be the downfall of the Bush Administration. I don’t think they ever even denied the veracity of it.

Oh yeah, that was a biggie. Or should have been. But I said that so many times – I always feel like we’re at the wrong end of the megaphone.

C’mon folks you’re being entirely too pessimistic about impeachment! I think Nancy has done a masterful job of deceiving the WH into a false sense of security! Witness this exchange between the WH and right-wing Capt. Morrisey:

The White House official was also asked about the possibility of impeachment, and apparently dismissed any danger.

“The Speaker has ruled that out, and the senior official hopes they see the futility of that path,” Morrisey wrote.

Time to cinch the noose!!!

wesgpc @ 45

Need to re-educate country that whole government is not at the ‘President’s pleasure.’

Specifically with respect to the USA firings, we are endlessly told that shit, while at the same time they won’t ever give a straight answer as to whether Bu’ush The Decider was personally involved in pointing out who pleased and displeased Him. The USAs don’t “serve at the pleasure” of Rove or Gonzo or whatever other flunky was involved.

Some guys named Steney and Rahm, who supposedly lead the Democratic caucus in the House, but neither one of which has made a significant statement about anything of note that I have ever heard of. Dear Leaders.

Rick @ 35

What is missing is a Whitehouse insider to the turn on the Cheney/Bush Junta…as did John Dean,… and some indisputable evidence…like the Nixon tapes.
If this were 2005, the outrage would be intense… as in, “how can our country stand 4 more years of this.” Now Americans, perhaps naively, believe that the Junta will be gone in 16 months. And then the American restoration can begin. Or so they hope.

So many think if they just stay out of politics it will cease to exist and won’t disrupt their lives. Once every four years they do their civic duty and vote. Politics has little to do with them.

I have dear friends who avoid politics and know little about Gonzales, Libby, Tillman, all the acronym secret government organizations, just what the Constitution says (must read it one day) and everything else that falls between. However, they are up on the latest Hollywood hunk. So what have we got to talk about. Basically, they are really kind, good, caring people who go out of their way to lend a helping hand.

So why do they feel sodisempowered when it comes to politics? It’s a mystery to me.

CTuttle @ 57

C’mon folks you’re being entirely too pessimistic about impeachment! I think Nancy has done a masterful job of deceiving the WH into a false sense of security! Witness this exchange between the WH and right-wing Capt. Morrisey:

The White House official was also asked about the possibility of impeachment, and apparently dismissed any danger.

“The Speaker has ruled that out, and the senior official hopes they see the futility of that path,” Morrisey wrote.

Time to cinch the noose!!!

From your lips/keyboard to God’s ears/monitor.

It think in this situation, the Democrats have a duty to talk about impeachment -actually at least three impeachments. Isn’t there a legal principle that if actions go unchallenged, that the very acquiescence can set a legal or constitutional precedent that it is all OK-dokey? Like, didn’t the US officially legally admit it was wire tapping everybody and their pets, and anything that made a noise, when they did not contest any charges at all in that recent lawsuit on wiretapping?

At some point, political feasibility and immediate guaranteed scores on the media and pundit (and DLC) popularity meters have to become secondary issue. And what is wrong with ‘getting it out there’ for public discussion? Sen Hagel got it out their on national news. Hagel will never do anything more than that, unless it actually maybe comes to trial. So once again, a GOPer has the guts to say something (even if he does very little) while the Democrats don’t. I think Murtha got it out there too. So conservative Democrat could do it, but the suppsed liberals cannot. Too bad about that. I am glad Feingold is moving in this direction, but he should change censure to impeachment.

“What would it take for the idea of impeachment to catch fire?”

get some of these events past the corporate press.

or get grandma to blog…

wesgpc — Feingold is a senator. Impeachment must start in the House.

I was sure Gannon/Guckert was going to be a turning point, but nooooo….

wesgpc @ 62

It think in this situation, the Democrats have a duty to talk about impeachment -actually at least three impeachments. Isn’t there a legal principle that if actions go unchallenged, that the very acquiescence can set a legal or constitutional precedent that it is all OK-dokey? Like, didn’t the US officially legally admit it was wire tapping everybody and their pets, and anything that made a noise, when they did not contest any charges at all in that recent lawsuit on wiretapping?

At some point, political feasibility and immediate guaranteed scores on the media and pundit (and DLC) popularity meters have to become secondary issue. And what is wrong with ‘getting it out there’ for public discussion? Sen Hagel got it out their on national news. Hagel will never do anything more than that, unless it actually maybe comes to trial. So once again, a GOPer has the guts to say something (even if he does very little) while the Democrats don’t. I think Murtha got it out there too. So conservative Democrat could do it, but the suppsed liberals cannot. Too bad about that. I am glad Feingold is moving in this direction, but he should change censure to impeachment.

One of the things that bugs me is this concept that losing a vote is this horrible, devastating event that will completely discredit your entire party, so if you don’t have the votes you shouldn’t even try.

I think that’s bullshit. One of the purposes of bringing things to a vote, be it impeachment or timetables, is to force the Republicans to declare themselves. Let them explain in 2008 why they want us to stay in Iraq forever, or why they think Dubya hasn’t done anything illegal as president.

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

punaise @ 65

I was sure Gannon/Guckert was going to be a turning point, but nooooo….

That was a turning point for me WRT the media. I no longer believe that the media is primarily concerned with money and ratings, or they would have been all over that one.

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

No no no, he was a dirty hippie atheist – didn’t you get the memo?

All the military guys that I know are all major football fans. I know my brother was WAY pissed off last night when I showed him the news articles about Tillman. I think that a lot of them will get angry at the white house.

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

punaise @ 65

I was sure Gannon/Guckert was going to be a turning point, but nooooo….

Yep…me too. I thought that scenario made Monicagate look positively tame. Maybe another indicator that the press is being blackmailed.

That whole iteration was a real administration F*** you to the WH press corps. Their reaction: “more please”.

punaise @ 65

I was sure Gannon/Guckert was going to be a turning point, but nooooo….

In depth analysis revealed it to be an eruptive incursion.

Eli @ 69

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

No no no, he was a dirty hippie atheist – didn’t you get the memo?

Eli, now you’ve gotten insider their creepy hive mind. You can predict their moves!! You can be a secret weapon…

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

It’s just fatigue – he’s worn down from those mean Democrats’ relentless attacks.

wesgpc @ 47

They’re obviously either smarter than we are or getting more accurate information than we are. Probably both. (I agree with them, though. They are so right.)

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

DINGDINGDINGDING!!!!

Jane (nyc) @ 72

That whole iteration was a real administration F*** you to the WH press corps. Their reaction: “more please”.

battered press syndrome

Great post about the very things on my mind. Had enough, America?

But, dear friend Eli, don’t you know that our top issue is…child porn? Yes, it’s true, Mitt told me so.

Gee, isn’t it the GOP media that keeps trotting Paris and Lindsay and dogfighting in front of our eyes. Well, yes, and that’s why they need to control it even more.

These are the issues that worry us most for our children…not that silly list above. pshaw.

Seriously, I’m glad Mitt is running such a stupid campaign. airhead.

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

You would think! The wingnuts in Katrina didn’t budge in their devotion to Bushetal even when their own homes were flooded. It was (I kid you not, I heard it with my own pointed ears) Clinton’s fault. Or, here is another quote I often heard from relatives in New Orleans, “I like our little president. I wish he could stay in office.” And he just may do that.

What will it take? Tillman. I don’t think so. His supporters will excuse what happened and make Tillman the villain.

Berzerk @ 74

Eli @ 69

No no no, he was a dirty hippie atheist – didn’t you get the memo?

Eli, now you’ve gotten insider their creepy hive mind. You can predict their moves!! You can be a secret weapon…

They’ve already started. I can’t find the e-mail, unfortunately(?).

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

They’d probably start a new show on Bravo called Top Prez.

Eli @ 69

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

No no no, he was a dirty hippie atheist – didn’t you get the memo?

But he was an NFL all-star who gave it up for the army, Eli. The dirty hippie atheist meme doesn’t work on NFL all stars who join the army. Who’s brother was also in the NFL and gave it up for the Army. Who’s best friend from college just retired as an NFL QB and All pro (Jake Plummer). It won’t work.

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

Um, he has. But when you’ve got people going nutzoid when he drinks a “near beer”, it’s hard to get people to believe that he smiles that way because he had the better part of a fifth in him.

Mitt gives a box of hammers a good run for the money, smarts-wise.

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

Yes, definitely a “black hat” narrative.

selise @ 18

i think the answer for “why?” comes from glenn greenwald and commentor Gator90:

It is hard to reach any other conclusion.

I think the same exact thinking applies to Iraq. Most Democrats in Congress don’t REALLY want to force the end of the war. They want to appear to oppose the war but have it linger on, so that when 2008 rolls around, the public is just as angry as the Republicans as they were in 2006 and punishes them by electing the “anti-war” Democrats.

– GlennGreenwald

if they’re right, then the answer to “what?” is a lot more pressure from us.

I think the answer is, “Get real.” Dems don’t respond to pressure any more than do Repubs. They respond to money.

The beauty of impeachment is twofold: 1) It would sweep away any Executive Privilege claims and force the testimony of key individuals(if only to defend themselves!), and, 2) It would engage the American Public in looking at the facts of this Maladministration’s illegal activities!

do-si-do @ 79

Great post about the very things on my mind. Had enough, America?

But, dear friend Eli, don’t you know that our top issue is…child porn? Yes, it’s true, Mitt told me so.

Gee, isn’t it the GOP media that keeps trotting Paris and Lindsay and dogfighting in front of our eyes. Well, yes, and that’s why they need to control it even more.

These are the issues that worry us most for our children…not that silly list above. pshaw.

Like I said, it’s not about the ratings. Ratings are just an excuse to broadcast frivolous crap.

Crawler on C-Span “White House says ‘Democrats on a ‘crusade’ to ‘destroy the attorney General.’”

Thanks for this Eli — I laughed out loud in a couple of spots, and after a week like this I could use a little laughter.

I don’t know the answer to your question, but I suspect it has a lot to do with the oh-so-serious pundit class saying things like “the bemused public looks on…” in reference to the contempt of Congress issue before us. And who said such a brain-dead thing, none other than Daniel Schorr everyone’s favorite nonagenarian commentator on NPR. I’m thinking the ol’ codger hasn’t run across the toobz…

Ya gotta admit Eli, that makes it an uphill battle for us clearly-not-remotely-serious lunatics who actually give a damn about our Constitution and representative democracy. I was just waiting for Danny boy to call us “quaint”, just like a certain Attorney General said about the Geneva Conventions.

FWIW, I really do hear more people talking openly about impeachment than 4 weeks ago — thanks in part to the Libby pardon, but thanks mostly to those here in the blogosphere who keep presenting day after day the reasons it is absolutely necessary.

It seems like every week, sometimes every day, there’s a new revelation that should make the Bushies radioactive even to their own party, that should make the American people clamor for impeachment (at the least), and yet it never… quite… happens.

I think about this a lot. When I first started blogging I did a post about a neurological study that I found very interesting and it stuck with me:

Recent developments in neurological science are showing that the left hemisphere of the brain is the repository for current beliefs about the world, while the right hemisphere acts as sort of “devil’s advocate,” scanning left hemisphere beliefs for anomalies and inconsistencies, and forcing an updating of those beliefs as a result. In order for that “updating factor” to kick in there has to be strong interaction and swapping of information between the hemispheres.

According to a recent study, strong right-handedness is an indicator of decreased interaction between the two sides of the brain; as a result, there is a lesser degree of “belief updating.” The study found that people who were strongly right-handed, as opposed to mixed or inconsistent-handed, had a much greater tendency to believe in creationist theory as opposed to an acceptance of science and evolution. The researchers believe that low hemispheric interaction allowed individuals to maintain beliefs dictated by religion and hold them uncritically despite exposure to any evidence to the contrary.

There may just be a certain percentage of the population that is wired differently. Over time they may be succeptible to social pressure and change their beliefs, but one of the successes of the GOP revolution has been to keep such people in self reinforcing enclaves where they are less succeptible those pressures.

Just a theory.

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

He tried that when he choked on a pretzel while watching a football game and fell off the couch and busted up his face. Try falling off the couch and see what happens. I did and nothing. But I’m sure it would happen if I were standing up and fell down drunk. His “noble” lie was again believed.

The only hope that keeps me from going crazy is that Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off of the table so that she could put it back on the table at the most propitious moment. The basic idea being that serious talk of impeachment would serve as a catalyst for the process itself as well as a lever to move other important legislation or stop especially egregious behavior.

joedinaz @67:

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

No, I think as soon as the Tillman story starts gaining any traction, his memory will be spun so hard and fast by the MSM™(a subsidiary of the Right Wing Noise Machine LLC) that people will have a hard time telling him apart from Scott Thomas Beauchamp.

Either that or there will be a massive campaign claiming (with no evidence whatsoever) that Tillman was killed by Wiccan members of the Special Forces. Some shit like that.

“White House says ‘Democrats on a ‘crusade’ to ‘destroy the attorney General.”?
You bet.
He’s destroyed the Justice Department. The guy is also a lying sack of pig’s guts.

Impeachment needs to be used so much more. It’s like a mini State of the Union address, albeit a bit more specific, that the people can summon whenever they think they aren’t in the know-how of the wheres, whats and whys of our nation, government, and military.

As for Eli, all I have to say to you is that your answer is all of the above.

From the people’s perspective it is a waste of time, but that’s because they know that Congress can never indict anybody they impeach due to god knows what.

From Congress’s perspective it’s about what American politiks are always about; elections. They know that an impeachment process gone wrong could possibly disrupt their astounding advantage.

Apparently they think it’s worth the wait. I’m not sure myself, there are a lot of ways it could be played. However, it mustn’t be played patiently due to weakness or fear.

In my opinion, Congress is really starting to gain its momentum in the favor of not the Democrats, but truly that of the people.

The 9/11 commission appropriation bill passed today and would more than likely sustain a veto override, and there are reports on this very website of Congress’s slow but positive progress.

I think we should do exactly what you mused, we should all get together and talk about what the best course of action is.

punaise @ 78

Jane (nyc) @ 72

That whole iteration was a real administration F*** you to the WH press corps. Their reaction: “more please”.

battered press syndrome

Exhibit A: David Gregory

dakine01 @ 83

But he was an NFL all-star who gave it up for the army, Eli. The dirty hippie atheist meme doesn’t work on NFL all stars who join the army. Who’s brother was also in the NFL and gave it up for the Army. Who’s best friend from college just retired as an NFL QB and All pro (Jake Plummer). It won’t work.

Won’t stop them from trying:

He wasn’t so much a patriot as he was apparently an antiwar lefist[sic] who enjoyed chomping on Noam Chomsky.

Not the first, won’t be the last leftist in the ranks. Fact is so ishis brother, Kevin. Shame. We used to sniff them out in basic training and help them “out”.

Ick. Just… ick.

I think it is the lack of coverage of anything resembling “news” by the media. Today and yesterday I took a look at our paper “The Minneapolis Star and tribune”. I haven’t so much as picked it up in a couple of years. What did I see? Nothing. No content to speak of at all. No national news that I could see. Nothing the gossip columnist Maureen Dowd in the opinion page. There is some local info and a smattering of syndicated items from the NY Times but other than that, nothing.

Everyone is asleep.

What is wrong with being a leftist?

I just don’t get it. Bush has all the same powers that Hitler had and everyone seems to think that he will give them up.

The new COG along with the Executive Order allowing the seizing of assets and property coupled with the Military Commissions Act and Martial Law being implemented tell the whole story.

I don’t understand how everyone still thinks that there will be anymore elections or that we still have a Constitution or Democracy.

If only this were a dream than we could wake up to a bright future instead of looking at World War III which is just around the corner.

I think that everyone should remove their rose colored glasses and acknowledge what is really happening in our country instead of not seeing the truth that is out there for all too see.

If I’m wrong we will find out very soon, but if I’m right than we are all in some serious trouble.

GordonM @ 84

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

Um, he has. But when you’ve got people going nutzoid when he drinks a “near beer”, it’s hard to get people to believe that he smiles that way because he had the better part of a fifth in him.

Hey. I quit drinking 21 years ago. Then I had a few suppsoedly alcohol-free beers. Guess what. My body deteted the slight amount of alcohol. Not quite end of story.

Jane Hamsher @ 92

There may just be a certain percentage of the population that is wired differently. Over time they may be succeptible to social pressure and change their beliefs, but one of the successes of the GOP revolution has been to keep such people in self reinforcing enclaves where they are less succeptible those pressures.

Just a theory.

Jane, are you saying that there may be a “Republican gene”?

[ runs screaming from the room ]

George A @ 102

I just don’t get it. Bush has all the same powers that Hitler had and everyone seems to think that he will give them up.

The new COG along with the Executive Order allowing the seizing of assets and property coupled with the Military Commissions Act and Martial Law being implemented tell the whole story.

I don’t understand how everyone still thinks that there will be anymore elections or that we still have a Constitution or Democracy.

If only this were a dream than we could wake up to a bright future instead of looking at World War III which is just around the corner.

I think that everyone should remove their rose colored glasses and acknowledge what is really happening in our country instead of not seeing the truth that is out there for all too see.

If I’m wrong we will find out very soon, but if I’m right than we are all in some serious trouble.

The Nazi Party is the Bush/Walker party of choice and still is.

Jonathan @ 87

I think the answer is, “Get real.” Dems don’t respond to pressure any more than do Repubs. They respond to money.

Actually, you’re wrong about that. It’s just that Dems haven’t had pressure for a long, long time. At least not from their Dem supporters. Letter writing, petition signing and activism have been institutionalized by the Right. Yeah, money talks, but you have to get elected first.

allan_in_upstate @ 22

OT, but what the h*ll:

This just in from DKos: Lowe’s pulls advertising from O’Reilly show

Wow! Fantastic news!! Foresight anyone? Absolutely wonderful! Go Lowe’s! I buy your product.

punaise @ 65

I was sure Gannon/Guckert was going to be a turning point, but nooooo….

The MSM protects Bush, Hillary, and Obama in hopes of a war with Iran.

The MSM hates Ron Paul because he is a man of peace.

T I L L M A N
May his soul rest while his story ends the criminality that is BushCheneyCo.

GordonM @ 106

Jonathan @ 87

I think the answer is, “Get real.” Dems don’t respond to pressure any more than do Repubs. They respond to money.

Actually, you’re wrong about that. It’s just that Dems haven’t had pressure for a long, long time. At least not from their Dem supporters. Letter writing, petition signing and activism have been institutionalized by the Right. Yeah, money talks, but you have to get elected first.

I wish what you say were true. Pelosi and Conyers prove the contrary.

Ode to Hal: My computer gets shut down, unplugged, boxed and in a dark place for the next 48 hours. Gulp! I’ll be back again at my new location. Farewell dear friends. I will miss you all. I love FDL! :))

GordonM @ 106

Jonathan @ 87

I think the answer is, “Get real.” Dems don’t respond to pressure any more than do Repubs. They respond to money.

Actually, you’re wrong about that. It’s just that Dems haven’t had pressure for a long, long time. At least not from their Dem supporters. Letter writing, petition signing and activism have been institutionalized by the Right. Yeah, money talks, but you have to get elected first.

The grassroots and netroots will have a lot more influence on politicians’ actions if we have influence on whether they get elected. Right now they favored moneyed corporate interests because they think they can’t win without them.

I think they’re also a lot easier to please than we are…

QuakerGirl @ 110

Ode to Hal: My computer gets shut down, unplugged, boxed and in a dark place for the next 48 hours. Gulp! I’ll be back again at my new location. Farewell dear friends. I will miss you all. I love FDL! :))

Have a fun move.

tripsarecopsem @ 21

Quite frankly, I’m not entirely sure why this is.

Because the American public is, in the main, a bitterly diminished thing.

This comment is right on the button. It started at the end of the 50s with work by Anthony downs that showed that people vote for stuff they like. From there it was a short step to thinking of them as ‘consumers’ and politicians as ‘entrepreneurs’. Bureaucrats wree hard to fit into the model, but they got stuffed in as persons who get their utility from spending other people’s money. It all fits. It’s the Libertarian creed.

It sucks. Whatever happened to the ideal of public service?
…we have come to refer to ourselves as consumers. That’s what we call ourselves on TV, in the newspapers, in the legislatures. Consumers. What a degrading label for people who used to be citizens.

Our fellow citizens (if such they may be called) are largely content to remain worthless. All of the lack of outrage over the outrageous things you cite stems from that.

Maybe someday things will change. Those of us who care should keep lifting.

flex @ 52

2 reasons why Bush and Cheney continue to destroy the world.

1. Fox News propaganda and lies
2. we don’t quite have the votes in the Houses for Impeachment

we need 67 votes in the Senate for Conviction and removal from office.

Thing one would have to be to get the Religious Right (which is fundamentally wrong) to turn on him. I thought there was a good start when the guy from the White House Office of Faith Based Initiatives jumped ship. But no traction. Something like the Bush family getting money intended to go to help people via kickbacks. Which of W’s brothers is in the educational publishing biz?

Moyers just showed some of the Blumenthal video from the College Young Rethuglicans convention.

It was a brilliantly edited piece with interspersed clips of the life/funeral of an 18 yr.old soldier who was killed by an IED.

BigMitch @ 115

Which of W’s brothers is in the educational publishing biz?

Pretty sure that’s Neil.

There. is. no. hope. Isn’t all this and Cheney the dark lord not clear enough? I just don’t know which one of ‘em is the first or second horseman of the apocalypse. Sure feels like an apocalypse.

I say take to the streets en masse. An organized uprising. Eli can plan it, becasue he’s tapped into their cunning hive mind and can think like them (which is kinda troubling in itself).

Jonathan @ 103

Hey. I quit drinking 21 years ago. Then I had a few suppsoedly alcohol-free beers. Guess what. My body deteted the slight amount of alcohol. Not quite end of story.

What I’m saying is he never quit. There’s a video from the 90s in which it is blatantly obvious (at a friend’s wedding). I’ve seen at least 3 clips in the last 6 months where I am sure he is drunk. Yeah, Laura made him cut back for awhile, but he never really quit.

Eli @ 111

GordonM @ 106

Actually, you’re wrong about that. It’s just that Dems haven’t had pressure for a long, long time. At least not from their Dem supporters. Letter writing, petition signing and activism have been institutionalized by the Right. Yeah, money talks, but you have to get elected first.

The grassroots and netroots will have a lot more influence on politicians’ actions if we have influence on whether they get elected. Right now they favored moneyed corporate interests because they think they can’t win without them.

I think they’re also a lot easier to please than we are…

The Democrats were much like this the latter part of the 19th century until the rise of the People’s Party. To stop their landslide defeat, they adopted the positions of the People’s Party. So, pressure from the people worked.

the Clinton impeachment was not, in my opinion, payback for Nixon. I think they wanted to send a message, but it got carried away, much further than they thought it would. And what was the message? I think they were pissed because there was talk of impeaching Reagan, after Iran-Contra, and then defeating his vice-president.

Jane Hamsher @ 92

It seems like every week, sometimes every day, there’s a new revelation that should make the Bushies radioactive even to their own party, that should make the American people clamor for impeachment (at the least), and yet it never… quite… happens.

I think about this a lot. When I first started blogging I did a post about a neurological study that I found very interesting and it stuck with me:

Recent developments in neurological science are showing that the left hemisphere of the brain is the repository for current beliefs about the world, while the right hemisphere acts as sort of “devil’s advocate,” scanning left hemisphere beliefs for anomalies and inconsistencies, and forcing an updating of those beliefs as a result. In order for that “updating factor” to kick in there has to be strong interaction and swapping of information between the hemispheres.

According to a recent study, strong right-handedness is an indicator of decreased interaction between the two sides of the brain; as a result, there is a lesser degree of “belief updating.” The study found that people who were strongly right-handed, as opposed to mixed or inconsistent-handed, had a much greater tendency to believe in creationist theory as opposed to an acceptance of science and evolution. The researchers believe that low hemispheric interaction allowed individuals to maintain beliefs dictated by religion and hold them uncritically despite exposure to any evidence to the contrary.

There may just be a certain percentage of the population that is wired differently. Over time they may be succeptible to social pressure and change their beliefs, but one of the successes of the GOP revolution has been to keep such people in self reinforcing enclaves where they are less succeptible those pressures.

Just a theory.

I guess that’s why I’m so dysfunctional (and dislexic). Strong (and I mean strong) left-handedness.

Jane Hamsher @ 92

There may just be a certain percentage of the population that is wired differently. Over time they may be succeptible to social pressure and change their beliefs, but one of the successes of the GOP revolution has been to keep such people in self reinforcing enclaves where they are less succeptible those pressures.

Just a theory.

Well, if you really want to get out there, there are also studies that seem to indicate that our much vaunted “free will” is something of an illusion.

I also recomend
“The Century of the Self“

From BBC 4

To many in both politics and business, the triumph of the self is the ultimate expression of democracy, where power has finally moved to the people. Certainly the people may feel they are in charge, but are they really? The Century of the Self tells the untold and sometimes controversial story of the growth of the mass-consumer society in Britain and the United States. How was the all-consuming self created, by whom, and in whose interests?

All cool people are left handed.

Clinton’s impeachment was such a farce that it discredited the whole process?

Yep. I call it impeachiness.

Jonathan @ 110

GordonM @ 106

Actually, you’re wrong about that. It’s just that Dems haven’t had pressure for a long, long time. At least not from their Dem supporters. Letter writing, petition signing and activism have been institutionalized by the Right. Yeah, money talks, but you have to get elected first.

I wish what you say were true. Pelosi and Conyers prove the contrary.

Oh no you don’t. You wish we’d believe you, and just go back to being good little sheep.

GordonM @ 119

Jonathan @ 103

Hey. I quit drinking 21 years ago. Then I had a few suppsoedly alcohol-free beers. Guess what. My body deteted the slight amount of alcohol. Not quite end of story.

What I’m saying is he never quit. There’s a video from the 90s in which it is blatantly obvious (at a friend’s wedding). I’ve seen at least 3 clips in the last 6 months where I am sure he is drunk. Yeah, Laura made him cut back for awhile, but he never really quit.

I believe what you say.

SnarKassandra @ 124

All cool people are left handed.

why, thank you.

GrandpaR @ 94

The only hope that keeps me from going crazy is that Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off of the table so that she could put it back on the table at the most propitious moment. The basic idea being that serious talk of impeachment would serve as a catalyst for the process itself as well as a lever to move other important legislation or stop especially egregious behavior.

I agree, Grandpa. The investigation can nowhere but to impeachment in some cases and prison time in others. She’s offering cookies while handing out indictments.

I am not even remotely left-handed. I guess that’s why I can think like them…

Interesting Knut. I was told in school (recently) that women have much more communication between their hemispheres than do men.

punaise @ 48

“Chimpiphany”

we are not worthy of punaise greatness.

MUST see: Goya’s Ghost.

Wonder full screen repros, including watching an etching being made. Spanish insurgency a major part of film, as is Inquisition. You won’t miss analogy to current political situation, but much more elegantly performed.

SnarKassandra @ 124

All cool people are left handed.

Clinton and Bush?

GordonM @ 126

Jonathan @ 110

I wish what you say were true. Pelosi and Conyers prove the contrary.

Oh no you don’t. You wish we’d believe you, and just go back to being good little sheep.

I don’t have any such wish. Petition these fucks in congress, and good luck. I mean it.

Kassie @ 125

Or ambidextrous.

(I do some things left-handed. Like knitting: I can’t see how it works with the yarn in the right hand, and other people can’t understand how I do it. The way I knit isn’t in any of the books.)

BigMitch @ 116

Thing one would have to be to get the Religious Right (which is fundamentally wrong) to turn on him. I thought there was a good start when the guy from the White House Office of Faith Based Initiatives jumped ship. But no traction. Something like the Bush family getting money intended to go to help people via kickbacks. Which of W’s brothers is in the educational publishing biz?

That’s Neil.

No, they’re not going to turn on him. You see, that would require publicly admitting they were completely wrong. They will most likely stay home next time. The GOP will get no help for their next candidate, but we’re not going to get any help from them either.

As far as I can tell the only way to convince the 25% backwash that Cheney needs impeaching is if he killed a famous and beloved nascar driver in a “hunting accident.” My brother, the redneck hunter and nascar fan was pretty pissed about Cheney’s last accident. “Real” hunters know that what Cheney does is about as sporting as shooting fish in a barrel. See, when you’re a redneck, killing Habeus Corpus is no big deal, but snuffing a nascar driver, that’s a high crime.

What will do it? Maybe, just maybe, if Bush does indeed claim executive privilege in the Tillman case, and enough people become outraged, that just might do it.

That just might be the final coverup that convinces the public of the utter corruption of the administration. But people have to scream bloody murder first (which most likely is exactly what happened). And then the laptop media must find a spine and truly cover the story. And then if Bush insists on covering it up, that just might do it.

Can’t think of anything else that will.

QuakerGirl @ 111

Ode to Hal: My computer gets shut down, unplugged, boxed and in a dark place for the next 48 hours. Gulp! I’ll be back again at my new location. Farewell dear friends. I will miss you all. I love FDL! :))

Oy, Quaker Girl, we’ll be thinking of you, sweets.

P J Evans @ 137

Kassie @ 125

Or ambidextrous.

(I do some things left-handed. Like knitting: I can’t see how it works with the yarn in the right hand, and other people can’t understand how I do it. The way I knit isn’t in any of the books.)

And what names do you put into your knitting while you are watching the guillotine congressional hearings?

tripsarecopsem @ 95

joedinaz @67:

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

No, I think as soon as the Tillman story starts gaining any traction, his memory will be spun so hard and fast by the MSM™(a subsidiary of the Right Wing Noise Machine LLC) that people will have a hard time telling him apart from Scott Thomas Beauchamp.

Either that or there will be a massive campaign claiming (with no evidence whatsoever) that Tillman was killed by Wiccan members of the Special Forces. Some shit like that.

I think they are already spinning it along the lines of his fellow soldiers hated him — I think the quote I saw was he was screaming at a fellow soldier to “quit sniveling”. The whole “hero” business is about to go right out the window…

P J Evans @ 136

Kassie @ 125

Or ambidextrous.

(I do some things left-handed. Like knitting: I can’t see how it works with the yarn in the right hand, and other people can’t understand how I do it. The way I knit isn’t in any of the books.)

Can you knit THIS?

Folks, I truly believe that what the GOP is hoping for is that we will … get tired …and go away. They count on our losing our focus from being beaten in the head so much. That is why it is so important that a) the House and Senate keep hammering at the Administration and hauling out these dirty rotting beasts every day. Every. Single. Day. Something new, something crappy, something disgusting. Every. Single. Day.
b) That we keep up the noise. Every. Single. Day. Honk for Impeachment. Rallies. Emails and phone calls and programs on PBS and talking to your neighbors and coworkers. Shoot, my 20 year old son sat here mesmerized watching the NOW show on the computer and getting all exercised about voter caging. He emailed our Rep. and Senators.
It’s up to us to stir the pot, to call our local news outlets and scream bloody murder about Pat Tillman. It’s up to us to get outraged and insist that our local and national news media cover the important stuff. Not Paris Hilton, not the celebutant flavor of the month or the DUI or the “going to jail” of the week or, God help us, the fact that a couple of astronauts were soused when they went up. That is filler. Garbage.
It is up to us. Is it OUR country or not? I’m sure my senators and congressman are flaming tired of getting my emails day after day after day…telling them to ‘do your job’ which includes “representing the American People and Defending the Constitution of the United States.” I don’t even CARE if I get a note back from these folks – I believe that they need to hear from us and hear from us and hear from us. Because what counts to these folks is that we will stand behind them when the deal goes down, that they won’t be out in front with their pants down in a cold wind. I know that there really ARE Republican senators and congresspeople who are wavering, but they are afraid of what the RNC will do to them if they break ranks. Those folks need our help and support also – we need to tell them and tell them and tell them — The GOP doesn’t give a flying crap about them and what they believe or feel. Be courageous – be a hero for the country – if you do the RIGHT THING, the constituents will support you. They need to know that because I know that the money is what they are afraid of.

Marretta @ 138

As far as I can tell the only way to convince the 25% backwash that Cheney needs impeaching is if he killed a famous and beloved nascar driver in a “hunting accident.” My brother, the redneck hunter and nascar fan was pretty pissed about Cheney’s last accident. “Real” hunters know that what Cheney does is about as sporting as shooting fish in a barrel. See, when you’re a redneck, killing Habeus Corpus is no big deal, but snuffing a nascar driver, that’s a high crime.

But we don’t *need* the 25%. We just need the middle 40-50% to make the jump from “Boy, these assholes really suck” to “Someone should really do something about these assholes.”

Eli @ 36

Watt4Bob @ 31

“Is it because Clinton’s impeachment was such a farce that it discredited the whole process?”

Yes, Clinton’s impeachment was an inoculation, an inadvertant inoculation, but it worked anyway.

In my tinfoilier moments, I sometimes wonder if it really was inadvertent.

Well, considering that the previous three Republican presidents all were publicly discussed at some point as impeachable …

But for our present moment I really think this is more an excuse the Dems or some of their strategerists have been giving themselves thank a reflection of the public sentiment. People know very well the difference between what Clinton and Bush have done. That look-in-the-mirror comment is a very interesting point.

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

Berzerk @ 119

There. is. no. hope. Isn’t all this and Cheney the dark lord not clear enough? I just don’t know which one of ‘em is the first or second horseman of the apocalypse. Sure feels like an apocalypse.

I say take to the streets en masse. An organized uprising. Eli can plan it, becasue he’s tapped into their cunning hive mind and can think like them (which is kinda troubling in itself).

Baloney. (see? I’m being nice) This is what they want you to think, it isn’t true. Bush will NOT suspend the ‘08 elections and if he tried the military would smack him down. It would not be tolerated. Nor do Bush/Cheney have as much power as they think they do. It is a delusion. Certainly not all but not as much as many seem to think.

Bush will over-reach and when he does it will all come tumbling down. I believe that.

SnarKassandra @ 101

What is wrong with being a leftist?

“leftist” is code for communist.
“liberal” is code for leftist.
then they do their math.

Twain @ 147

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

Did you see Ron Fournier’s Broderesque hand-wringing about it, in which Al From was the only person quoted?

Twain @ 148

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

Discredited Losers Club

Twain @ 148

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

You mean Rahm and Hojo will be all by their lonesomes???

Eli @ 150

Twain @ 147

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

Did you see Ron Fournier’s Broderesque hand-wringing about it, in which Al From was the only person quoted?

Yes, and I detest From. He couldn’t organize a pillow fight.

I thought Hillary is in the DLC.

yellowdog jim @ 115

flex @ 52

2 reasons why Bush and Cheney continue to destroy the world.

1. Fox News propaganda and lies
2. we don’t quite have the votes in the Houses for Impeachment

we need 67 votes in the Senate for Conviction and removal from office.

Impeach them, conduct the trial in the Senate where it will headline broadcast news and make the front pages of newspapers across the country, and I guarantee you’ll get your 67 votes for conviction. The trial is the key. All we need is to get the Dems in the house off their cowering backsides.

noen @ 148

Berzerk @ 119

There. is. no. hope. Isn’t all this and Cheney the dark lord not clear enough? I just don’t know which one of ‘em is the first or second horseman of the apocalypse. Sure feels like an apocalypse.

I say take to the streets en masse. An organized uprising. Eli can plan it, becasue he’s tapped into their cunning hive mind and can think like them (which is kinda troubling in itself).

Baloney. (see? I’m being nice) This is what they want you to think, it isn’t true. Bush will NOT suspend the ‘08 elections and if he tried the military would smack him down. It would not be tolerated. Nor do Bush/Cheney have as much power as they think they do. It is a delusion. Certainly not all but not as much as many seem to think.

Bush will over-reach and when he does it will all come tumbling down. I believe that.

I think there *is* a limit to how far they can go, and suspending elections is beyond it – unless there’s a major enough attack that they declare martial law or Double Top Secret Super Emergency. And even that might not be enough.

On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine them overreaching any more than they already have, and they haven’t collapsed yet.

SnarKassandra @ 125

All cool people are left handed.

I am a left handed southern scorpio.:P

SnarKassandra @ 154

I thought Hillary is in the DLC.

She is, but she’s hoping no-one will remember that.

Twain @ 148

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

What???

noen @ 148

Berzerk @ 119

There. is. no. hope. Isn’t all this and Cheney the dark lord not clear enough? I just don’t know which one of ‘em is the first or second horseman of the apocalypse. Sure feels like an apocalypse.

I say take to the streets en masse. An organized uprising. Eli can plan it, becasue he’s tapped into their cunning hive mind and can think like them (which is kinda troubling in itself).

Baloney. (see? I’m being nice) This is what they want you to think, it isn’t true. Bush will NOT suspend the ‘08 elections and if he tried the military would smack him down. It would not be tolerated. Nor do Bush/Cheney have as much power as they think they do. It is a delusion. Certainly not all but not as much as many seem to think.

Bush will over-reach and when he does it will all come tumbling down. I believe that.

Bush HAS overreached. And congress has issued subpoenas, which will never be enforced, in response.

Dunno – impeach on a list of 20 or 30 items and let them slide on the rest.

I think Pat Tillman should be added if they will not release an trodding on him before or during his death.

phred @ 155

Impeach them, conduct the trial in the Senate where it will headline broadcast news and make the front pages of newspapers across the country, and I guarantee you’ll get your 67 votes for conviction. The trial is the key. All we need is to get the Dems in the house off their cowering backsides.

And as I alluded to in an earlier comment, if the Republicans *don’t* go along, then you can make the 2008 elections all about how the Republicans condone blatantly criminal behavior.

Eli @ 146

But we don’t *need* the 25%. We just need the middle 40-50% to make the jump from “Boy, these assholes really suck” to “Someone should really do something about these assholes.”

You beat me to it…. And I think the Tilman debacle could do it.

At this point it is not a matter for the congress to get rid of the criminals. The American voter will correct the situation in 11/2008. At that point the dominant theme will be that all remnants of Republican/Bush/conservative rule must be washed clean by voting out anybody who had to do with that rule. It will be a clean sweep. Historic. The 2006 election was merely the breaking wave before the 2008 Tsunami. The American public is not disinterested, but is aware of the need and how to fulfill that need. 2006 told us that. Congress should be content to check the criminals where ever possible. And they no doubt have very wide latitude in what they could do, as far as the American public is concerned. If the criminals try and are successful at canceling the 2008 election, the American public will then get out the pitchforks!

Loo Hoo. @ 159

Twain @ 148

I think it is just great that none of our candidates are going to the DLC convention this weekend. Quite a signal, I believe.

What???

They don’t really want the association because us lefties dislike the DLC so much. You know they could find time to go if they wanted to but they didn’t. :):)

Let me quote myself:

If the media (who have been complicit in the failure so far to hold our government accountable for its collective actions, and of the individual actions of its elected and appointed members) fails to assist the investigation, then we must do it. We have a tool in the Internet that allows for the collection of data and information, its analysis, and the wide dissemination of knowledge in a substantively different way than ever available to individual citizens before.

Governor Howard Dean said it simply: “You have the power.” We do have the power. Do not believe otherwise. That power is what created this great country. That power will save this great country.

The careful work of people like Eli, Jane, Christy, Glenn Greenwald, and Marcy Wheeler is helping to build awareness of the crimes of this Administration, and of the danger that continued ignorance of the facts leads us into.

BigMitch says: July 27th, 2007 at 6:34 pm– Feingold in Senate.
—
Oh, yeah, right –Feinglold IS in the Senate. Slipped my mind… I got all het up about it.
Well, then Feingold should say he thinks the case needs to be tried, real bad, right now. Three cases need to be tried.

I think a few old fashioned trials right there in Congress would educate the public wonderfully. If the public didn’t like it right off, too bad. Just wait until they hear the GOP defense, and the public view will change.

scory @ 166

Let me quote myself:

If the media (who have been complicit in the failure so far to hold our government accountable for its collective actions, and of the individual actions of its elected and appointed members) fails to assist the investigation, then we must do it. We have a tool in the Internet that allows for the collection of data and information, its analysis, and the wide dissemination of knowledge in a substantively different way than ever available to individual citizens before.

Governor Howard Dean said it simply: “You have the power.” We do have the power. Do not believe otherwise. That power is what created this great country. That power will save this great country.

The careful work of people like Jane, Christy, Glenn Greenwald, and Marcy Wheeler is helping to build awareness of the crimes of this Administration, and of the danger that continued ignorance of the facts leads us into.

And ELI !

A couple of months ago John Edwards campaign put together a good television commercial in support of congress voting no on a pending out of Iraq bill. They then sent out emails asking for folks to pitch in and buy air time for the ad to run across the nation. I donated and also watched the ad on my television and donated again.

Perhaps we could put together some Blue America radio or television ads like Edwards crew did..only with lists of laws broken/list scandals/impeach now.. or just.. ENOUGH!

We have to break through and get our concerns/outrage into the public conscience.. Perhaps we need to do it the old fashioned way and collectively buy it.

Andre @ 164

At this point it is not a matter for the congress to get rid of the criminals. The American voter will correct the situation in 11/2008. At that point the dominant theme will be that all remnants of Republican/Bush/conservative rule must be washed clean by voting out anybody who had to do with that rule. It will be a clean sweep. Historic. The 2006 election was merely the breaking wave before the 2008 Tsunami. The American public is not disinterested, but is aware of the need and how to fulfill that need. 2006 told us that. Congress should be content to check the criminals where ever possible. And they no doubt have very wide latitude in what they could do, as far as the American public is concerned. If the criminals try and are successful at canceling the 2008 election, the American public will then get out the pitchforks!

I could live with a landslide as a consolation prize, but only if the American people don’t go all amnesiac again and forget how crooked and evil the GOP is.

I haven’t read all the comments but this is part of my 2 cents.

I don’t think that most of the US populace is even aware or concerned about what is going on with Bush/Cheney or Rove or Gonzo. What they see is Paris and Lindsey and Vick and Bonds and on and on. We need to raise our neighbors’ and friends’ and relatives’ awareness. If I walked my downtown (Eugene Oregon, not a hotbed of conservatism) and asked if we had a Constitutional crisis I don’t think the awareness level would be all that high.

Most of the Repubs in Congress have been there for quite some time. The level of corruption and claiming of powers is NOT restricted to Bush/Cheney. It has been in the works for 20-some years and WAS close to reaching the goal of the permanent Republican rule. Fortunately (but not so fortunate for everyone, American, Iraqi, everyone, killed in the Iraq mission) the quagmire of this Iraq fiasco turned the tables enough in Congress to begin bringing oversight and dial back the Republicans ultimate goals. I think as long as the level of corruption is kept front and center then the Dems stand a very good chance of retaking the WH and increasing leads in Congress. At which point we all need to continue putting pressure on each of our representatives to change the system back to what our founding fathers created.

It would be great to impeach Bush/Cheney but it may be detrimental in the big picture. I think keeping their misdeeds and mistakes in the public eye and raising awareness to your friends and coworkers who get their info from TV may be enough to piss off enough average Americans to sink the Repubs….

There are many, many issues to address but publically funded elections (with trackable ballots) should be a priority. Get BIG money out of politics.

It would be great to make all these bad actors just disappear but that’s unrealistic. People that visit sites like FDL are aware, but how many of your friends, neighbors and family are also aware AND are active. We need to get them all po’d to the point where they put pressure on their elected reps, like we do, and demand changes. We need to take back our gov’t and if it has to be done one person at a time, then that is what we need to do.

Cheers!

Toby at 145 – absolutely. The Right (through church disseminated campaigns etc.) have been pressuring our Congresscritters for nearly 40 years now, even when they have no idea what they’re signing.

Here in Maine, we’ve turned a blue dog rep (Michaud) resolutely against the war in the last year or so. Liberals / Progressives don’t tend to be activist until they’re upset. That’s very, very different from the Right. They write letters every time they’re told to.

Your Congresscritter is most likely a venal beast – but even the dimmest of them eventually realize that if they can’t get elected, they can’t pig out at the trough.

So tell them how to vote. On each and every issue that matters. (Man, I wish there was some site I could check weekly for what’s coming up for vote.)

scory @ 166

Let me quote myself:

If the media (who have been complicit in the failure so far to hold our government accountable for its collective actions, and of the individual actions of its elected and appointed members) fails to assist the investigation, then we must do it. We have a tool in the Internet that allows for the collection of data and information, its analysis, and the wide dissemination of knowledge in a substantively different way than ever available to individual citizens before.

Governor Howard Dean said it simply: “You have the power.” We do have the power. Do not believe otherwise. That power is what created this great country. That power will save this great country.

The careful work of people like Jane, Christy, Glenn Greenwald, and Marcy Wheeler is helping to build awareness of the crimes of this Administration, and of the danger that continued ignorance of the facts leads us into.

Oh, sure. They could probably put together a strong case for impeachment from Greenwald and FDL posts (not mine) alone. And there’s tons more out there.

They will start sayingjoedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

The wingnuts will turn on Tillman when the Republicans start playing the atheist card. Watch.

Toby Wollin @ 145

Folks, I truly believe that what the GOP is hoping for is that we will … get tired …and go away. They count on our losing our focus from being beaten in the head so much. That is why it is so important that a) the House and Senate keep hammering at the Administration and hauling out these dirty rotting beasts every day. Every. Single. Day. Something new, something crappy, something disgusting. Every. Single. Day.
b) That we keep up the noise. Every. Single. Day. Honk for Impeachment. Rallies. Emails and phone calls and programs on PBS and talking to your neighbors and coworkers. Shoot, my 20 year old son sat here mesmerized watching the NOW show on the computer and getting all exercised about voter caging. He emailed our Rep. and Senators.
It’s up to us to stir the pot, to call our local news outlets and scream bloody murder about Pat Tillman. It’s up to us to get outraged and insist that our local and national news media cover the important stuff. Not Paris Hilton, not the celebutant flavor of the month or the DUI or the “going to jail” of the week or, God help us, the fact that a couple of astronauts were soused when they went up. That is filler. Garbage.
It is up to us. Is it OUR country or not? I’m sure my senators and congressman are flaming tired of getting my emails day after day after day…telling them to ‘do your job’ which includes “representing the American People and Defending the Constitution of the United States.” I don’t even CARE if I get a note back from these folks – I believe that they need to hear from us and hear from us and hear from us. Because what counts to these folks is that we will stand behind them when the deal goes down, that they won’t be out in front with their pants down in a cold wind. I know that there really ARE Republican senators and congresspeople who are wavering, but they are afraid of what the RNC will do to them if they break ranks. Those folks need our help and support also – we need to tell them and tell them and tell them — The GOP doesn’t give a flying crap about them and what they believe or feel. Be courageous – be a hero for the country – if you do the RIGHT THING, the constituents will support you. They need to know that because I know that the money is what they are afraid of.

This is exactly right. I don’t think there is any one thing that will do the trick. It will be the sum total exceeding all of its parts that will get them in the end. And the pressure slowly building from the blogs out into the broader public. We’ll get there, but we just have to keep at it, day after day, as long as it takes to crack that 2×4 over the MSM’s collective head.

The soldiers won’t care if he was an atheist. The soldiers will care Bush lied to his family.

Eli says

On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine them overreaching any more than they already have, and they haven’t collapsed yet.

Jonathan says

Bush HAS overreached. And congress has issued subpoenas, which will never be enforced, in response.

To us and from our perspective he has, I agree. Legally I’m not sure he has. At least not in such a way that the GOP senators would abandon him. Conyers is setting him up for just that and I am hoping it works. Without the 60 votes I don’t see how he can be impeached, I really don’t.

I rarely say stuff like this, but I think it’s unavoidable:

This is an awesome discussion. You guys rock.

Hi Eli.

I don’t profess to be an expert, but in the 60’s we were (relatively) wealthy as a middle class and our neighbors were being dragged off against their will to (potentially) die.

Today, we hear about how much money people are making, yet we cant seem to make ends meet. Our homes are losing value while the rates are going up. We have two income homes just to make ends meet, and worry endlessly about money, child care, education, and “terrorism”.

If we werent so fucking overwhelmed by it all, we’d probably be a bit more inclined to take to the street, but who has the energy for it?

I’m sure this is all as planned, btw. A hungry but not starving populace is probably the easiest to manage.

Jane Hamsher @ 92

I have a book, The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes, which I read long ago. I have always thought this must be part of the explanation, that the two parts of the brain check each other. Jaynes says that our ancestors did not think like we do because the two sides of the brain did not communicate. Instead, they experienced the “other half” as an auditory hallucination.

Hannah Arendt says something very similar about Socrates in one of her books.

So, maybe there is something to this theory. Maybe we should try some experiments with our rightwing friends. Instead of arguing, we get them to explain themselves over and over, so that the other side of the brain will eventually hear the problem and try to cope with it.

Eli @ 163

phred @ 155

Impeach them, conduct the trial in the Senate where it will headline broadcast news and make the front pages of newspapers across the country, and I guarantee you’ll get your 67 votes for conviction. The trial is the key. All we need is to get the Dems in the house off their cowering backsides.

And as I alluded to in an earlier comment, if the Republicans *don’t* go along, then you can make the 2008 elections all about how the Republicans condone blatantly criminal behavior.

Exactly right Eli, but i’m still bettin’ on mainstream conservatives getting their knickers in a real twist when they are presented with the facts. The Rethugs up for reelection will fold like a pair of 2s.

QuakerGirl @ 80

joedinaz @ 67

I think the Tillman story could take them down. I don’t think there is a wingnut or Rethug that doesn’t consider Tillman a hero, and having covered up his murder would swing even them I think.

You would think! The wingnuts in Katrina didn’t budge in their devotion to Bushetal even when their own homes were flooded. It was (I kid you not, I heard it with my own pointed ears) Clinton’s fault. Or, here is another quote I often heard from relatives in New Orleans, “I like our little president. I wish he could stay in office.” And he just may do that.

What will it take? Tillman. I don’t think so. His supporters will excuse what happened and make Tillman the villain.

They did budge in the Katrina disasters, I was with many folks in VA and they signed out on the president for a few months, likely came back – and are now gone again. Katrina would have cost him the election getting below 50% I think, though they cruised their crapping mistakes and lowering approval rating right across 2004 Tillman.

phred @ 156

yellowdog jim @ 115

we need 67 votes in the Senate for Conviction and removal from office.

Impeach them, conduct the trial in the Senate where it will headline broadcast news and make the front pages of newspapers across the country, and I guarantee you’ll get your 67 votes for conviction. The trial is the key. All we need is to get the Dems in the house off their cowering backsides.

As soon as the House Judiciary begins an Impeachment Inquiry and the witnesses and documents begin to tell their stories (remember, Bush won’t be able to scream Executive Privilege because it will be him that is under investigation) the public will be riveted on the whole sordid spectacle that is the Bush administration. I believe with all my heart that the votes to bring Articles of Impeachment will be there in the House, and after additional revelations during the trial, there will be no problem getting the votes in the Senate. We just need to apply overwhelming pressure on the House to take the first step and begin the fact-finding phase, the Impeachment Investigation. The rest will take care of itself.

TRex is upstairs

Therapod thread

Jane (nyc) @ 185

TRex is upstairs

Therapod thread

it disappeared

Adding to my previous post – I think we’re all desperate to pull the lever and vote these fuckers out – all of ‘em.

Everyone I talk to in every aspect of my life (except my friends on Wall St.) is absolutely fed up.

Via @ 175

The wingnuts will turn on Tillman when the Republicans start playing the atheist card. Watch.

The base would but I don’t think the 40-50% would. Not at all. Those are the ones we need to start waking up.

Hell to make things right Bush would have been defeated in 2004. Make them 1 termers. Now it is so way past due. It would be like re-electing Dan Quayle, but the dumb and corrupt one rather than the dumb and stupid one.

Lets put together a Tillman disgraced by Bush ad and run it on ESPN for a few weeks.

Lets put together and ad about the time Bushco appointed a male veterinarian to oversee womens health matters in America and run it on the Food/HSN/Lifetime network. (I know lifetime is owned by Disney but we have to get to the people)

OK gang

Never seen that happen before. I swear “HE” was there ’cause I got the zed. Now it’s a 404 error. :-(

noen @ 177

Eli says

On the other hand, it’s hard to imagine them overreaching any more than they already have, and they haven’t collapsed yet.

Jonathan says

Bush HAS overreached. And congress has issued subpoenas, which will never be enforced, in response.

To us and from our perspective he has, I agree. Legally I’m not sure he has. At least not in such a way that the GOP senators would abandon him. Conyers is setting him up for just that and I am hoping it works. Without the 60 votes I don’t see how he can be impeached, I really don’t.

Why, why not begin impeachment proceedings? I don’t care, really, if Bush or Cheney is CONVICTED. This country needs to do what it can to keep the Bush misdeeds from becoming precedent for some future president. We cannot rely on Hillary, e.g., simply to renounce all the asserted power Bush will hand to her. I realize I’m a broken record.

Rick @ 35

What is missing is a Whitehouse insider to the turn on the Cheney/Bush Junta…as did John Dean,… and some indisputable evidence…like the Nixon tapes.
If this were 2005, the outrage would be intense… as in, “how can our country stand 4 more years of this.” Now Americans, perhaps naively, believe that the Junta will be gone in 16 months. And then the American restoration can begin. Or so they hope.

I’ve been called delusional but I’m betting that Rove will flip. Remember the circumstances that caused him to be fired by GHWB? He didn’t get a campaign contract that he wanted so he leaked some negative info to Novak. It hurt the campaign and he was fired. He has loyalty to himself only and certainly no sense of honor or decency. Also, he’s not one of the kool-aid drinkers. Based on that, I think that if the day comes where he realizes that the 2008 election is lost (and cannot be stolen) he will make a deal to stay out of jail.
Everyone else is bailing. He can’t. He’s committed too many crimes. A repub victory is mandatory if he is to survive. Cornered animal, indeed. But if he realizes all is lost, he’ll save himself.

Jane (nyc) @ 191

OK gang

Never seen that happen before. I swear “HE” was there ’cause I got the zed. Now it’s a 404 error. :-(

It means he wrote it but forgot to tell Wordpress to wait until 10:00

Via @ 183

phred @ 156

Impeach them, conduct the trial in the Senate where it will headline broadcast news and make the front pages of newspapers across the country, and I guarantee you’ll get your 67 votes for conviction. The trial is the key. All we need is to get the Dems in the house off their cowering backsides.

As soon as the House Judiciary begins an Impeachment Inquiry and the witnesses and documents begin to tell their stories (remember, Bush won’t be able to scream Executive Privilege because it will be him that is under investigation) the public will be riveted on the whole sordid spectacle that is the Bush administration. I believe with all my heart that the votes to bring Articles of Impeachment will be there in the House, and after additional revelations during the trial, there will be no problem getting the votes in the Senate. We just need to apply overwhelming pressure on the House to take the first step and begin the fact-finding phase, the Impeachment Investigation. The rest will take care of itself.

I used to be a firm believer that it would be a huge mistake to start impeachment proceedings without the public being solidly on board. But I’ve been warming to the idea that they might be the *means* to get the public on board.

Andre @ 165

At this point it is not a matter for the congress to get rid of the criminals. The American voter will correct the situation in 11/2008. At that point the dominant theme will be that all remnants of Republican/Bush/conservative rule must be washed clean by voting out anybody who had to do with that rule. It will be a clean sweep. Historic. The 2006 election was merely the breaking wave before the 2008 Tsunami. The American public is not disinterested, but is aware of the need and how to fulfill that need. 2006 told us that. Congress should be content to check the criminals where ever possible. And they no doubt have very wide latitude in what they could do, as far as the American public is concerned. If the criminals try and are successful at canceling the 2008 election, the American public will then get out the pitchforks!

This is the worst case scenario in my book. We MUST impeach. Otherwise a precedent will be set that will be extremely difficult to undo. I have no worries at all about Bush cancelling the 2008 elections. That is going way too far way too soon. But I don’t doubt for a second that the next power-hungry sumbitch will use all their handy little unitary executive powers to eviscerate Congress more than than have been already. And then, what good will elections do you? It is ulitmately the precedent that is the problem. If you haven’t seen it I highly recommend the Moyers program with Fein and Nichols, they explain this point quite eloquently.

Some Guy @ 29

I would add a third reason to why: public embarrassment of the public. A lot of people ra-ra’d for this shitstorm of a presidency. I am thinking a fair number have decided he sucks but impeachment would put more of them in front of their mirrors asking questions. That has been happening but even among those who have publicly said “I was wrong” not nearly enough get to the reality of how crazy wrong they were or what to have supported this mess really means.

So I blame the evasion of conscience as well.

This is a very important reason why I support the idea of a John Edwards Presidency: “I was wrong” is something America needs to learn to say.

I like the ESPN idea. Also an add in the sports magazines.

Jane (nyc) @ 191

OK gang

Never seen that happen before. I swear “HE” was there ’cause I got the zed. Now it’s a 404 error. :-(

You’ll still get it! However, I’m miffed it’s not up yet!

The main thing is that Pergury is not going to do it, even Obstruction is not going to do it.

The facade needs to be busted down and the actual crimes they commited strewn out to cringe like a vampire in the sun.

No stealing powers, no lies, no smug oligarch.

It is too early for TRex anyways.

Via @ 183

phred @ 156

Impeach them, conduct the trial in the Senate where it will headline broadcast news and make the front pages of newspapers across the country, and I guarantee you’ll get your 67 votes for conviction. The trial is the key. All we need is to get the Dems in the house off their cowering backsides.

As soon as the House Judiciary begins an Impeachment Inquiry and the witnesses and documents begin to tell their stories (remember, Bush won’t be able to scream Executive Privilege because it will be him that is under investigation) the public will be riveted on the whole sordid spectacle that is the Bush administration. I believe with all my heart that the votes to bring Articles of Impeachment will be there in the House, and after additional revelations during the trial, there will be no problem getting the votes in the Senate. We just need to apply overwhelming pressure on the House to take the first step and begin the fact-finding phase, the Impeachment Investigation. The rest will take care of itself.

from your lips to God(ess)’s ears.

urban pirate @ 180

I’m sure this is all as planned, btw. A hungry but not starving populace is probably the easiest to manage.

It’s a tricky line to draw. You have to keep the lower middle class believing that they can “make it”. If you do that, you can keep them believing the threat is ‘from below’. If you can’t, they wake up to the fact that the threat is ‘from above’. These guys aren’t that smart. They’ve blown it. But it takes awhile for these things to play out. Often a generation or so.

[I highly recommend Howard Zinn’s story of the Revolutionary War in A People’s History of the United States as a demonstration of how intelligent people play this game.]

Jane (nyc) @ 191

OK gang

Never seen that happen before. I swear “HE” was there ’cause I got the zed. Now it’s a 404 error. :-(

It happens sometimes. But you get to keep the zed. The fun thing is when it happens and doesn’t come back for a couple of days…

Eli @ 195

I used to be a firm believer that it would be a huge mistake to start impeachment proceedings without the public being solidly on board. But I’ve been warming to the idea that they might be the *means* to get the public on board.

I have argued strongly here before that impeachment is just not possible. I’m still not 100% convinced (though I am warming to it) but I think it could be possible under certain conditions. But I really am afraid that if we were to try an fail that would be even worse.

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

He alreBigMitch @ 64

wesgpc — Feingold is a senator. Impeachment must start in the House.

While it is true that only the House can impeach, the movement can start anywhere. Senator Goldwater was a big influence in getting Nixon to resign to avoid impeachment. noen @ 149

Berzerk @ 119

There. is. no. hope. Isn’t all this and Cheney the dark lord not clear enough? I just don’t know which one of ‘em is the first or second horseman of the apocalypse. Sure feels like an apocalypse.

I say take to the streets en masse. An organized uprising. Eli can plan it, becasue he’s tapped into their cunning hive mind and can think like them (which is kinda troubling in itself).

Baloney. (see? I’m being nice) This is what they want you to think, it isn’t true. Bush will NOT suspend the ‘08 elections and if he tried the military would smack him down. It would not be tolerated. Nor do Bush/Cheney have as much power as they think they do. It is a delusion. Certainly not all but not as much as many seem to think.

Bush will over-reach and when he does it will all come tumbling down. I believe that.

I would so like to believe you, but Bush has been over reaching since Florida 2000, even before he got to the White House, and we still have not called him to account. What the Bush family did (Poppy with Baker and Jeb in FL) was to subvert the electoral process by fiat. So his overreaching began even before he was sworn in. On the day the Court made that decision, we had the beginnings of the imperial presidency.

Why? Because this president was not duly elected by the people. His power was acquired by proclamation.

From that day forward, Bush knew he had the Supreme Court in his pocket, and he not surprisingly decided that he was King of the Universe.

If he ever gets his reckoning it will be because the very Supreme Court that made him King will decide that enough is enough. But don’t hold your breath.

noen @ 204

Eli @ 195

I used to be a firm believer that it would be a huge mistake to start impeachment proceedings without the public being solidly on board. But I’ve been warming to the idea that they might be the *means* to get the public on board.

I have argued strongly here before that impeachment is just not possible. I’m still not 100% convinced (though I am warming to it) but I think it could be possible under certain conditions. But I really am afraid that if we were to try an fail that would be even worse.

I think it depends on the nature of the failure. If it becomes wildly popular and the Republicans block it, the backlash will fall on them, not the Democrats.

But if the Democrats go forward with impeachment without any popular demand for it, then I agree that that would be bad.

Why, why not begin impeachment proceedings? I don’t care, really, if Bush or Cheney is CONVICTED. This country needs to do what it can to keep the Bush misdeeds from becoming precedent for some future president. We cannot rely on Hillary, e.g., simply to renounce all the asserted power Bush will hand to her. I realize I’m a broken record.

Jonathan, you are right. That’s why the dems are having all of these hearings.

Timidity is seldom rewarded.

We must understand that we, as a country and as a culture, are not very good at understanding the pious point of view.

We are used to secular governance and have minimal knowledge of the rapture of the Shiva Charivari quadrumanous.

If filtered by the residual effects latent in the frontal lobes of the South Western Hippogriff, who admittedly in the near past, was under the undo, not to mention, complete and total, influence of the exquisite mesquite lone-star rock pipe, fired-up with fully loaded angels speaking in tongues, we are, if graven images have struck us incapable of understading-in-tongues, candidates for mercy.

Unless, of course, you believe in Spontaneous Combustion.

SnarKassandra @ 194

It means he wrote it but forgot to tell Wordpress to wait until 10:00

Bad TRex! Bad! Bad! But there’s too much tail to spank, and all that armor plating gets in the way.

I love my country so much, I’m going to sacrifice myself to get us to the impeachment threshold. I’m going to give Bush a blow job. That’ll do it.

ORMark @ 172

I haven’t read all the comments but this is part of my 2 cents.

I don’t think that most of the US populace is even aware or concerned about what is going on with Bush/Cheney or Rove or Gonzo. What they see is Paris and Lindsey and Vick and Bonds and on and on. We need to raise our neighbors’ and friends’ and relatives’ awareness. If I walked my downtown (Eugene Oregon, not a hotbed of conservatism) and asked if we had a Constitutional crisis I don’t think the awareness level would be all that high.

Most of the Repubs in Congress have been there for quite some time. The level of corruption and claiming of powers is NOT restricted to Bush/Cheney. It has been in the works for 20-some years and WAS close to reaching the goal of the permanent Republican rule. Fortunately (but not so fortunate for everyone, American, Iraqi, everyone, killed in the Iraq mission) the quagmire of this Iraq fiasco turned the tables enough in Congress to begin bringing oversight and dial back the Republicans ultimate goals. I think as long as the level of corruption is kept front and center then the Dems stand a very good chance of retaking the WH and increasing leads in Congress. At which point we all need to continue putting pressure on each of our representatives to change the system back to what our founding fathers created.

It would be great to impeach Bush/Cheney but it may be detrimental in the big picture. I think keeping their misdeeds and mistakes in the public eye and raising awareness to your friends and coworkers who get their info from TV may be enough to piss off enough average Americans to sink the Repubs….

There are many, many issues to address but publically funded elections (with trackable ballots) should be a priority. Get BIG money out of politics.

It would be great to make all these bad actors just disappear but that’s unrealistic. People that visit sites like FDL are aware, but how many of your friends, neighbors and family are also aware AND are active. We need to get them all po’d to the point where they put pressure on their elected reps, like we do, and demand changes. We need to take back our gov’t and if it has to be done one person at a time, then that is what we need to do.

Cheers!

Right exactly, I’m gonna repeat myself ’cause I can. We absolutely must impeach unless you are prepared to stroll down the path of tyranny from here on out. Once the precedent of the unitary executive is set, it will be mighty hard to undo.

Second, most of us hear reading the blogs and watching CSPAN3 know what the facts are. The folks without access to broadband can’t get CSPAN3 (I have yet to see it on any TV anywhere I have traveled, and I travel a lot). And we all know the MSM still can’t wrap their little editorial brains around the concept of putting this stuff on the front page of the paper or headlining Katie Couric’s god-forsaken-idea of TV news.

I grew up in a rural conservative part of the country and I can vouch for the importance of playing by the rules to the people I grew up with. I believe that sentiment is still prevalent among those who haven’t done shots of Rethug kool-aid. I really believe once they know, they will pressure their congresscritters, even the Rethugs to vote to impeach.

The last thing I want is Hillary or Barak or John, much less Rudy, Fred, or the other John to wield the kind of authority Bush and Cheney claim they have.

Denial is perhaps the most powerful and most misunderstood of human tendencies. People routinely fail to see what is right in front of their faces when it is too uncomfortable, too threatening, too dissonant with their belief of what is possible or what is real.

When you combine the natural tendency for denial with a carefully orchestrated plan to deceive, confuse, obfuscate, and lie, and it becomes even less likely that voices will rise in protest.

Add to denial and deception the abdication by the news media of their responsibility to accurately portray events, and throw in some ringers like Hannity and O’Reilly who pretend to report the news and you have a public that is paralyzed.

On top of it all, throw in a society where most people are pampered and coddled beyond belief, well fed, and afraid that they could lose all of their creature comforts if they rock the boat.

Now add some good old fashioned fear. Fear of terrorism, fear of foreigners and strangers, fear of the unknown, fear of new leadership. The paralysis gets worse.

When you add this all up, it’s no mystery to me why people don’t act in response to an obvious call for action. The Bush administration has also done a masterful job of keeping people distracted and off balance, uncertain about what is real, keeping the grim realities a distant spectacle. This is why they find blogs, good journalism, the flow of information through the Internet so threatening.

Where will it all end? I am intermittently optimistic and despondent. Unless we can impeach Bush and Cheney in the near future, I fear we face a hopeless future. I have become convinced that the only realistic weapon we can hope to use is to call for a general strike, to paralyze the country until our elected representatives will take up the responsibility to impeach this administration and restore democratic rule to the United States. I believe it will take this kind of bold action to shame them into doing what must be done.

Hoping for change with the next election is an illusion. The thought provides comfort, a place to hide. But it’s far too much time for Bush to do his dirty work, and no one really knows what will happen next.

Toby Martin @ 212

I love my country so much, I’m going to sacrifice myself to get us to the impeachment threshold. I’m going to give Bush a blow job. That’ll do it.

No, really we can’t accept your generous offer. It would scar your life forever.

Toby Martin @ 211

I love my country so much, I’m going to sacrifice myself to get us to the impeachment threshold. I’m going to give Bush a blow job. That’ll do it.

Hey, I’m not with you on this. But from what I’ve read, Shrub might smile.

I do agree that they are building their case, rejuvingating their muscles. Recall that now serious legislation and investigion is going on in the House.

The have been re-elected so need to come out of the Matrix.

Of course we are worried that they will not go all the way and fight to get the facts, take the facts where they go, take the action based on the facts and the law. If they get all jellyfish then we are sold.

I do think the hearing are showing the have the high ground (moral and strategy) as well as the white hats.

Lets make sure in addition to Tillman that Signing Statements are on there, and some specific signing statements & Executive Order that were an abuse of power and against the Constitution. God the best impeachment would be if they found the President or Vice President made people pledge oaths to them rather than the Constitution (what else would explain such a large number of lackeys that will forever gather the money and do their bidding).

The other thing that dissapoints and makes me wonder if both parties are the same jellyfish is the fact that the last election was between two people that were in the same Secreat Society – that is just pathetic.

Welcome to the real world -oNe.

Jonathan @ 209

Timidity is seldom rewarded.

Temerity is often punished.

The Dao of Politics grasshopper.

Twain @ 214

Toby Martin @ 212

I love my country so much, I’m going to sacrifice myself to get us to the impeachment threshold. I’m going to give Bush a blow job. That’ll do it.

No, really we can’t accept your generous offer. It would scar your life forever.

Besides, it only works on Democrats.

One of the first major jolts I got from this adm. was finding out that they were paying journalists to run news stories. It let me know that these guys were playing a whole different game.

I wish I had something to add. I’m simply at a loss. If the incredible laundry list of criminality and incompetence that’s already out there won’t move the people and/or congress, i truly don’t know what will.

Maybe another ‘open microphone’ moment catching GWB calling a Christian group “assholes”, complete with Cheney following up with a “Yeah, Big Time”.

Eli @ 207

noen @ 204

I have argued strongly here before that impeachment is just not possible. I’m still not 100% convinced (though I am warming to it) but I think it could be possible under certain conditions. But I really am afraid that if we were to try an fail that would be even worse.

I think it depends on the nature of the failure. If it becomes wildly popular and the Republicans block it, the backlash will fall on them, not the Democrats.

But if the Democrats go forward with impeachment without any popular demand for it, then I agree that that would be bad.

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that it only takes a simple majority to draft and hand over to the Senate the Articles of Impeachment! The Senate needs a Super-Majority to convict, yet, a simple majority to start the process!

noen @ 217

Jonathan @ 209

Timidity is seldom rewarded.

Temerity is often punished.

The Dao of Politics grasshopper.

excellent turn of phrase.

dreamcatcher @ 206

BigMitch @ 71

I wonder what would happen if W fell off the wagon, conspicuously.

He alreBigMitch @ 64

wesgpc — Feingold is a senator. Impeachment must start in the House.

While it is true that only the House can impeach, the movement can start anywhere. Senator Goldwater was a big influence in getting Nixon to resign to avoid impeachment. noen @ 149

Baloney. (see? I’m being nice) This is what they want you to think, it isn’t true. Bush will NOT suspend the ‘08 elections and if he tried the military would smack him down. It would not be tolerated. Nor do Bush/Cheney have as much power as they think they do. It is a delusion. Certainly not all but not as much as many seem to think.

Bush will over-reach and when he does it will all come tumbling down. I believe that.

I would so like to believe you, but Bush has been over reaching since Florida 2000, even before he got to the White House, and we still have not called him to account. What the Bush family did (Poppy with Baker and Jeb in FL) was to subvert the electoral process by fiat. So his overreaching began even before he was sworn in. On the day the Court made that decision, we had the beginnings of the imperial presidency.

Why? Because this president was not duly elected by the people. His power was acquired by proclamation.

From that day forward, Bush knew he had the Supreme Court in his pocket, and he not surprisingly decided that he was King of the Universe.

If he ever gets his reckoning it will be because the very Supreme Court that made him King will decide that enough is enough. But don’t hold your breath.

And all this over-reaching occurred because not one fucking Democrat, including the guy who had the election stolen from him went on the warpath and told the people that it was NOT the place of the Supreme Court to make a spurious ruling based on bad interpretation of the constitution but that the House of Representatives was where the question should have been decided.

Once the GOP saw that the Dems were rolling over they gunned up the engines on their Panzers and began their blitzkreig against the rule of law.

It just occurred to me that we didn’t get a Friday night resignation. Or did I miss something?

CTuttle @ 222

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that it only takes a simple majority to draft and hand over to the Senate the Articles of Impeachment! The Senate needs a Super-Majority to convict, yet, a simple majority to start the process!

Conyers has said that he needs three more supporting him and he will begin impeachment proceedings. We have to get him those three.

Imavehmontah @ 213

Denial is perhaps the most powerful and most misunderstood of human tendencies. People routinely fail to see what is right in front of their faces when it is too uncomfortable, too threatening, too dissonant with their belief of what is possible or what is real.

When you combine the natural tendency for denial with a carefully orchestrated plan to deceive, confuse, obfuscate, and lie, and it becomes even less likely that voices will rise in protest.

Add to denial and deception the abdication by the news media of their responsibility to accurately portray events, and throw in some ringers like Hannity and O’Reilly who pretend to report the news and you have a public that is paralyzed.

On top of it all, throw in a society where most people are pampered and coddled beyond belief, well fed, and afraid that they could lose all of their creature comforts if they rock the boat.

Now add some good old fashioned fear. Fear of terrorism, fear of foreigners and strangers, fear of the unknown, fear of new leadership. The paralysis gets worse.

When you add this all up, it’s no mystery to me why people don’t act in response to an obvious call for action. The Bush administration has also done a masterful job of keeping people distracted and off balance, uncertain about what is real, keeping the grim realities a distant spectacle. This is why they find blogs, good journalism, the flow of information through the Internet so threatening.

Where will it all end? I am intermittently optimistic and despondent. Unless we can impeach Bush and Cheney in the near future, I fear we face a hopeless future. I have become convinced that the only realistic weapon we can hope to use is to call for a general strike, to paralyze the country until our elected representatives will take up the responsibility to impeach this administration and restore democratic rule to the United States. I believe it will take this kind of bold action to shame them into doing what must be done.

Hoping for change with the next election is an illusion. The thought provides comfort, a place to hide. But it’s far too much time for Bush to do his dirty work, and no one really knows what will happen next.

In other words, the Republicans and the media are in the denial facilitation business, and very good at it.

solai @ 192

Rick @ 35

What is missing is a Whitehouse insider to the turn on the Cheney/Bush Junta…as did John Dean,… and some indisputable evidence…like the Nixon tapes.
If this were 2005, the outrage would be intense… as in, “how can our country stand 4 more years of this.” Now Americans, perhaps naively, believe that the Junta will be gone in 16 months. And then the American restoration can begin. Or so they hope.

I’ve been called delusional but I’m betting that Rove will flip. Remember the circumstances that caused him to be fired by GHWB? He didn’t get a campaign contract that he wanted so he leaked some negative info to Novak. It hurt the campaign and he was fired. He has loyalty to himself only and certainly no sense of honor or decency. Also, he’s not one of the kool-aid drinkers. Based on that, I think that if the day comes where he realizes that the 2008 election is lost (and cannot be stolen) he will make a deal to stay out of jail.
Everyone else is bailing. He can’t. He’s committed too many crimes. A repub victory is mandatory if he is to survive. Cornered animal, indeed. But if he realizes all is lost, he’ll save himself.

You read my mind. Rove’s a total weasel and when push comes to shove he’ll save his own skin first, no matter what that may mean for his chums.

People who think impeachment should not proceed unless you can count the votes ahead of time have the wrong Constitutional interpretation of impeachment. The impeachment process by itself is a method of calling an official to account for the “high crimes and misdemeanors.” It is not a guarantee that the impeached will be convicted, or even forced to resign.

Impeachment expresses the will of the people to remedy grievances committed upon the body politic. If these grievances are substantial, documented, and carry the weight of credibility, it is the duty of Congress at the very least to put the machinery of impeachment into motion.

The leaders in the House know this so we are not telling them anything new. It is their duty to start impeachment proceedings if they feel the grievances warrant it, and this process should not rely on the relativistic calculus of winning versus losing.

The only calculus they need is to uphold the Constitution as they swore upon taking office.

Step back for a minute and think about the gap between us and the folks in this country who don’t read sites like FDL, TPM, Kos, or Huffington Post. Think about the people who only get mainstream news. Hell, even as castrated as NPR has been for the past few years, it’s better than nothing. Before I found these sites I knew I was being lied to, but didn’t know all the details. Everyone has mentioned how the media have failed to report the real news of this war, this corrupt administration, but the sad truth is that so much is covered up that most Americans have no idea how bad things are. How many people watch Cspan 3 for crying out loud? Most people in this country don’t have the free time to spend tracking the truth down. I sure didn’t, as a struggling single mom. Problem is, the MSM is bought and paid for. Nobody there is going to rock the boat. That’s why they have to keep attacking the grass roots and the blogosphere. We are a threat. Not a big one yet, but they don’t want anyone taking us seriously. And for the most part, they don’t. Oh yeah, I imagine they will do a special on Tillman and drag his name through the mud. God forbid anyone know the actual truth. How we progressives continue the fight when the deck is so stacked against us is anyone’s guess. As for me, I’m just plain stubborn.

Eli @ 195

Via @ 183

As soon as the House Judiciary begins an Impeachment Inquiry and the witnesses and documents begin to tell their stories (remember, Bush won’t be able to scream Executive Privilege because it will be him that is under investigation) the public will be riveted on the whole sordid spectacle that is the Bush administration. I believe with all my heart that the votes to bring Articles of Impeachment will be there in the House, and after additional revelations during the trial, there will be no problem getting the votes in the Senate. We just need to apply overwhelming pressure on the House to take the first step and begin the fact-finding phase, the Impeachment Investigation. The rest will take care of itself.

I used to be a firm believer that it would be a huge mistake to start impeachment proceedings without the public being solidly on board. But I’ve been warming to the idea that they might be the *means* to get the public on board.

I’ll send you a steaming bad of hot coals if it will help warm you further ;)

Hoping for change with the next election is an illusion. The thought provides comfort, a place to hide. But it’s far too much time for Bush to do his dirty work, and no one really knows what will happen next.

Amen. And it also paves the way for Blue Dog, DLC enablers to maintain our current path albeit tempered a little bit.

noen @ 226

CTuttle @ 222

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that it only takes a simple majority to draft and hand over to the Senate the Articles of Impeachment! The Senate needs a Super-Majority to convict, yet, a simple majority to start the process!

Conyers has said that he needs three more supporting him and he will begin impeachment proceedings. We have to get him those three.

I’ve e-mailed my two reps(Abercrombie and Hirono) I’m awaiting responses back!

redX @ 216

God the best impeachment would be if they found the President or Vice President made people pledge oaths to them rather than the Constitution (what else would explain such a large number of lackeys that will forever gather the money and do their bidding).

Didn’t Sara Taylor already admit that she “swore an oath to uphold the president”?

I am late to the conversation, but I have decided that watching Moyers’ Journal is part of my obligation of citizenship. He was all over the money in politics discussion, but the winner take all discussion was about W’s claim to fight them over there so that…etc. The speakers agreed that is not true and argued, convincingly, how our presence is alienating the Muslim world where we are definitely not seen as bringing democracy. If we can’t get out very soon, we are only birthing more enemies and raising our risks, etc. Much of what has been said here; how to get the message out. The Bush claim ad nauseam is hard core lying and b..sh..

redX @ 200

The main thing is that Pergury is not going to do it, even Obstruction is not going to do it.

The facade needs to be busted down and the actual crimes they commited strewn out to cringe like a vampire in the sun.

No stealing powers, no lies, no smug oligarch.

Without executive privilege to hide behind, we’ll finally find out…

Loo Hoo. @ 208

Why, why not begin impeachment proceedings? I don’t care, really, if Bush or Cheney is CONVICTED. This country needs to do what it can to keep the Bush misdeeds from becoming precedent for some future president. We cannot rely on Hillary, e.g., simply to renounce all the asserted power Bush will hand to her. I realize I’m a broken record.

Jonathan, you are right. That’s why the dems are having all of these hearings.

Exactly. If we fail, we will at least have tried.

dreamcatcher @ 228

People who think impeachment should not proceed unless you can count the votes ahead of time have the wrong Constitutional interpretation of impeachment. The impeachment process by itself is a method of calling an official to account for the “high crimes and misdemeanors.” It is not a guarantee that the impeached will be convicted, or even forced to resign.

Impeachment expresses the will of the people to remedy grievances committed upon the body politic. If these grievances are substantial, documented, and carry the weight of credibility, it is the duty of Congress at the very least to put the machinery of impeachment into motion.

The leaders in the House know this so we are not telling them anything new. It is their duty to start impeachment proceedings if they feel the grievances warrant it, and this process should not rely on the relativistic calculus of winning versus losing.

The only calculus they need is to uphold the Constitution as they swore upon taking office.

There is no constitutional requirement that they must impeach. Besides, the will of the people is silent. They are currently more interested in Lindsey Lohan right now.

The GOP impeachment effort was ordered from the top down and it failed. IF there is sufficient ground swell, I hope that happens BTW, then it will succeed.

Tis is the only way impeachment will happen. Cindy Sheehan must start polling over 30% vs. Nancy.

It is a shame that one district in California could put impeachment “on the table”.

When Nancy started to triangulate the political gains of taking impeachment off the table, she became just as bad as the Bushies.

Think about it. We are pushing the investigation of the politicization of the Justice Dept. Nancy is simply just making justice about politics and political gains.

Defend the Constitution Nancy. History will be very kind to you.

noen @ 205

Eli @ 195

I used to be a firm believer that it would be a huge mistake to start impeachment proceedings without the public being solidly on board. But I’ve been warming to the idea that they might be the *means* to get the public on board.

I have argued strongly here before that impeachment is just not possible. I’m still not 100% convinced (though I am warming to it) but I think it could be possible under certain conditions. But I really am afraid that if we were to try an fail that would be even worse.

Glad to hear you’re warming to it noen — I know we have wrangled over this before. I really really believe the precedent would be far worse than any other outcome.

Clinton’s impeachment didn’t *just* happen, it was the result of a long and very-well orchestrated campaign. And I’m thinking that we shouldn’t just sit around waiting for impeachment either: these here toobz reach a lot of people, inside and outside the Beltway. How about some good (emotional) slogans, for starters. And I am sure that many people here have excellent PR skills and lots of ideas about how to build some momentum. We’re all far too passive when the times call for being proactive.

Here’s the first article of impeachment.

That George Walker Bush has violated on numerous occasions, hereinafter specified, his presidential oath of office, TO WIT:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

I walked away for 10 minutes. And y’all became seriously pessimistic.

You go, Maretta!

Does anyone here genuinely believe that we will go through all of this, and perhaps impeach everyone at the top (best case, I realize), and all of these unmentionable creeps resign, etc. etc. and the Democrats sweep Congress and the presidency next year…is there anyone here who truly believes that we will then be “at peace” in the US? That life will be “beautiful” again? Because if you do, I’d like to suggest that you shoot yourself in the head right NOW and put yourself out of the misery that will start in January of 2009 – because Rove, Cheney, Bush, et al. ARE. NOT.GOING.TO. QUIT. They did not quit after Goldwater; they did not quit after Nixon or Poppy. They have goals and they take the super long view. And their goal is to wait for their chance again and do it again. And again. And again. Until they can make it stick. Which means that we are at war. Think Viet Nam and Ho Chi Minh. He was at war with the French for decades and then we got it, too. And we all see the result of that.
The problem for us as Americans is – once we were under the impression (naive as it was) that we were all facing forward and fighting for the same stuff for us all. It’s been really tough for us to understand that there is a fairly significant percentage of people who reside in the United States who do NOT agree with the rest of us and who have very fixed feelings and ideas of what the United States should look and feel like. Fighting the culture wars in the long term is exhausting and depressing. That is what the GOP/right wingers count on. As Americans, we must understand that this is now…forever. The fight to protect the Constitution is forever. The fight to keep boneheads and narrow view justices out of the Supreme Court lasts forever. Bipartisan is the GOP word for getting what they want. No more cooperation – every justice they put up must be closely questioned and held to account. We must take the long view – because if we get tired..if we somehow think that next November, if we win, then it’s “game over” – then they will just regroup in the dark and come at us again and again and again. This is not Harry Potter folks – it’s not as if we have the chance to cut off the head of the beast and then settle down to peace and harmony again. That is not going to happen. Sure, Fallwell is dead – big deal. The Christian Right may look like it’s splintered into a bunch of groups, but they will regroup again also. We need to examine what’s happened over the past 25 years and be prepared – all we are doing right now is trying the save the Constitution today.

Eli @ 234

Didn’t Sara Taylor already admit that she “swore an oath to uphold the president”?

She did but then corrected herself immediately. I took it as a sign of her emotional loyalty to Bush and not as an actual oath.

Marretta @ 229

Step back for a minute and think about the gap between us and the folks in this country who don’t read sites like FDL, TPM, Kos, or Huffington Post. Think about the people who only get mainstream news. Hell, even as castrated as NPR has been for the past few years, it’s better than nothing. Before I found these sites I knew I was being lied to, but didn’t know all the details. Everyone has mentioned how the media have failed to report the real news of this war, this corrupt administration, but the sad truth is that so much is covered up that most Americans have no idea how bad things are. How many people watch Cspan 3 for crying out loud? Most people in this country don’t have the free time to spend tracking the truth down. I sure didn’t, as a struggling single mom. Problem is, the MSM is bought and paid for. Nobody there is going to rock the boat. That’s why they have to keep attacking the grass roots and the blogosphere. We are a threat. Not a big one yet, but they don’t want anyone taking us seriously. And for the most part, they don’t. Oh yeah, I imagine they will do a special on Tillman and drag his name through the mud. God forbid anyone know the actual truth. How we progressives continue the fight when the deck is so stacked against us is anyone’s guess. As for me, I’m just plain stubborn.

And this is why the corporate media bugs me so much. They literally control reality for a large swath of people.

oddball @ 239

Tis is the only way impeachment will happen. Cindy Sheehan must start polling over 30% vs. Nancy.

It is a shame that one district in California could put impeachment “on the table”.

When Nancy started to triangulate the political gains of taking impeachment off the table, she became just as bad as the Bushies.

Think about it. We are pushing the investigation of the politicization of the Justice Dept. Nancy is simply just making justice about politics and political gains.

Defend the Constitution Nancy. History will be very kind to you.

Would you vote for Cindy over Nancy? Not I.

yellowdog jim @ 115

flex @ 52

2 reasons why Bush and Cheney continue to destroy the world.

1. Fox News propaganda and lies
2. we don’t quite have the votes in the Houses for Impeachment

we need 67 votes in the Senate for Conviction and removal from office.

Actually it’s 2/3rd’s of the VOTING members…that dynamic could change with indictments and resignations and abstentions.

In addition, I think that we have to realize that a Bush impeachment after January 2008 (when the Democrats in the Senate should definitely have the votes) could serve some important benefits.

Because the Constitution allows for impeachment to both remove an individual from office and to ” disqualification to hold and enjoy ANY office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.”

The most important issue here is to prevent Bush from using his authority as a former President to “seal” his records, and thus prevent the full disclosure of this Administrations crimes. Impeachment would thus block the former President from “obstruction of justice” by preventing law enforcement and the public from inspecting what are public records of the government. In addition, Congress needs to know what corrupt acts occurred in order to develop civil and legislative remedies to them. Impeachment would block Bush from using his own, modified, Executive Order on Presidential and Vice-Presidential records.

As well, there is the social value that “no one is above the law”. Public disgrace and scorn is something that no one seeks. Bush realizes that “history will judge him”…but wants to obscure his “record” of failure and corruption while in office. Being the first impeached and convicted President, even after his term ends, will serve to repudiate his Presidency.

It would prevent him for serving in any other capacity “under the United States”. As far as I can see it would mean that Congressional officials could not seek his counsel, as that would be a position of “honor and trust”. He could not be appointed as an Ambassador, Judge, Magistrate, to a trade Delegation, as an Executive Advisor, etc.

He could not seek Federal contracts as a lobbyist or businessman. He could not apply for grants. These are positions of “trust”.

He could not use his franking privileges to fundraise, or communicate with supporters (”profit”).

He could not use his former title (or the Presidential Seal or “Hail To The Chief”) as part of his speech giving. Congress could specify that any usage of the title be “historically accurate” with “the only impeached and convicted President of the United States”.

He could be prevented from having access to his Presidential documents and other items for a “Presidential Library”. The Government could restrict funding for such a library if it would “honor” the impeached. Again, it could have a library that was HISTORICALLY accurate…but no “shrines” to the regime.

And even Secret Service protection might be pulled…as it is a privilege that is accorded a former President that is honored. Clearly the former Presidents “profit” from such arrangements, and impeachment should strip access to this.

Pensions and other emoluments of former office could be stripped.

Now I expect Bush will do quite well financially despite this. He has served certain major financial interests quite well, and they will reward his service to their interests with opulence.

But that doesn’t mean that we have to allow him to rob the public treasury and archives of truth even more.

dannyboy @ 241

Clinton’s impeachment didn’t *just* happen, it was the result of a long and very-well orchestrated campaign. And I’m thinking that we shouldn’t just sit around waiting for impeachment either: these here toobz reach a lot of people, inside and outside the Beltway. How about some good (emotional) slogans, for starters. And I am sure that many people here have excellent PR skills and lots of ideas about how to build some momentum. We’re all far too passive when the times call for being proactive.

True, when Clinton was impeached 65% opposed the proceedings, Cheney has a 55% approval rating for impeachment, Shrub is polling at 45% for impeachment! WTF!!!

Lets consider this reason for no impeachment traction;
Most Americans aspire to the American Dream which means
get wealthy, consume without guilt and live posh-move up the
ladder. It is not happening for most though it’s the carrot keeping
the horse moving forward. The American Dream requires a
belief in the exceptionalism of America. How else can we justify the
insane captalism and militarism to keep the American way of life going.
Come 9-11 and the message from the Terrorists is stop
exploiting Islamic people and subverting our culture-get out of the
Middle East. Your life style is our enemy. So the American
consumer goes brain dead out of fear of a loosing a Western
way of life on consumption and exploitation. Deep down the
American consumer is in panic free fall, in massive debt, no
way out and is too terrified to rock the boat with Impeachment.
Perhaps there is a secret love for Bush -he’s the bad alcoholic
father that abuses and neglects the family except he pretends
to work for you and we are suckered in keeping him.
When will enough people wake up to the reality that Bush and
Cheney are toxic, dangerous and must be IMPEACHED.
WHEN WILL THE NATION WAKE UP OUT OF ITS DENIAL?.

phred @ 240

Glad to hear you’re warming to it noen — I know we have wrangled over this before. I really really believe the precedent would be far worse than any other outcome.

We have. I was strongly persuaded by KagroX and others from DailyKos. I felt their arguments were very strong and besides, I’m no expert in any of this.

I get confused and turned around just about every other day by these lying scoundrels. Everyday it’s a new outrage. I don’t know what to think sometimes.

But I can be kind of stubborn ya know.

noen @ 246

Eli @ 234

Didn’t Sara Taylor already admit that she “swore an oath to uphold the president”?

She did but then corrected herself immediately. I took it as a sign of her emotional loyalty to Bush and not as an actual oath.

Nope. Shee didn’t correct herself until Leahy made her-after a break. Then she tried to tell Leahy that what she meant to say was that she took an oath to the constitution, but that it meant loyalty to W too. It was really pathetic.

TRex is back.

Sorry cinnamonape, it is not 2/3 of voting members. It is 2/3 of the body, i.e. 67 votes. It would be nice if it were 2/3 of voting members but reality is otherwise

HI
Does it really matter what being said here. Spread the word beyond the net. Please include everyone in the conversion or it’slost in the conversation anditdoes’n’t meant a thing.
jo6pac
It has to include every one.

Loo Hoo. @ 253

Nope. Shee didn’t correct herself until Leahy made her-after a break. Then she tried to tell Leahy that what she meant to say was that she took an oath to the constitution, but that it meant loyalty to W too. It was really pathetic.

Really!? Wow, the clip that I saw, or remember seeing was different. I think it was. Wow, if we could get proof that underlings were required to give loyalty oaths… wow… that would do it I think.

LooHoo,
I couldn’t see myself voting for Sheehan.

My point was that it will take a lot of political pressure to get Nancy to turn. She and the DLC/DLCC are salivating at the prospect of the great train wreck that is the Bush Administration keeping on the keeping on.

I want a super majority of prgressives in congress for the next session, but putting potential political gains ahead of defending the Constitution is what is making me ill.

DO THE RIGHT THING NANCY.

jo6pac @ 256

HI
Does it really matter what being said here. Spread the word beyond the net. Please include everyone in the conversion or it’s�lost in the conversation and�it�does’n’t meant a thing.
jo6pac
It has to include every one.

How right you are

Fresh thread upstairs…

allan_in_upstate @ 17

Until some of the Republicans in Congress put their country before their party,
impeachment is just not going to happen.
They are the true dead enders.

It takes exactly zero republicans to impeach. Zero. Nada. Zip.

Until democrats put the constitution before their corporate donations, impeachment is just not going to happen.

Keep that in mind come primary season. An inquiry followed by articles of impeachment followed by full airing of facts in the Senate requires no republican votes. And that’s a fact.

Conviction requires Republicans. But by then there will be plenty of wrongdoing on the local news every night. And then it’s up to the Democrats to make the GOP senators who vote against conviction an explicit conspirator after the fact.

Democrats are blocking impeachment. And I don’t know why, but I’m well on my way to being an ex-Democrat.

noen @ 238

dreamcatcher @ 228

People who think impeachment should not proceed unless you can count the votes ahead of time have the wrong Constitutional interpretation of impeachment. The impeachment process by itself is a method of calling an official to account for the “high crimes and misdemeanors.” It is not a guarantee that the impeached will be convicted, or even forced to resign.

Impeachment expresses the will of the people to remedy grievances committed upon the body politic. If these grievances are substantial, documented, and carry the weight of credibility, it is the duty of Congress at the very least to put the machinery of impeachment into motion.

The leaders in the House know this so we are not telling them anything new. It is their duty to start impeachment proceedings if they feel the grievances warrant it, and this process should not rely on the relativistic calculus of winning versus losing.

The only calculus they need is to uphold the Constitution as they swore upon taking office.

There is no constitutional requirement that they must impeach. Besides, the will of the people is silent. They are currently more interested in Lindsey Lohan right now.

The GOP impeachment effort was ordered from the top down and it failed. IF there is sufficient ground swell, I hope that happens BTW, then it will succeed.

i wouldn’t call 54% in favor of impeaching Cheney (and over 40% for Bush) exactly silent.

Loo Hoo. @ 253

noen @ 246

She did but then corrected herself immediately. I took it as a sign of her emotional loyalty to Bush and not as an actual oath.

Nope. Shee didn’t correct herself until Leahy made her-after a break. Then she tried to tell Leahy that what she meant to say was that she took an oath to the constitution, but that it meant loyalty to W too. It was really pathetic.

Hi everybody … have I missed anything exciting ?!! *g*

I think the SJC rightly surmised that Sara was a distraction, Whitehouse took her down quite easily.
She will either flip or be charged with perjury, but Leahy and Co. are hunting Big Game !

TRex is really upstairs now, honest :)

Toby Wollin @ 245

Does anyone here genuinely believe that we will go through all of this, and perhaps impeach everyone at the top (best case, I realize), and all of these unmentionable creeps resign, etc. etc. and the Democrats sweep Congress and the presidency next year…is there anyone here who truly believes that we will then be “at peace” in the US? That life will be “beautiful” again? Because if you do, I’d like to suggest that you shoot yourself in the head right NOW and put yourself out of the misery that will start in January of 2009 – because Rove, Cheney, Bush, et al. ARE. NOT.GOING.TO. QUIT. They did not quit after Goldwater; they did not quit after Nixon or Poppy. They have goals and they take the super long view. And their goal is to wait for their chance again and do it again. And again. And again. Until they can make it stick. Which means that we are at war. Think Viet Nam and Ho Chi Minh. He was at war with the French for decades and then we got it, too. And we all see the result of that.
The problem for us as Americans is – once we were under the impression (naive as it was) that we were all facing forward and fighting for the same stuff for us all. It’s been really tough for us to understand that there is a fairly significant percentage of people who reside in the United States who do NOT agree with the rest of us and who have very fixed feelings and ideas of what the United States should look and feel like. Fighting the culture wars in the long term is exhausting and depressing. That is what the GOP/right wingers count on. As Americans, we must understand that this is now…forever. The fight to protect the Constitution is forever. The fight to keep boneheads and narrow view justices out of the Supreme Court lasts forever. Bipartisan is the GOP word for getting what they want. No more cooperation – every justice they put up must be closely questioned and held to account. We must take the long view – because if we get tired..if we somehow think that next November, if we win, then it’s “game over” – then they will just regroup in the dark and come at us again and again and again. This is not Harry Potter folks – it’s not as if we have the chance to cut off the head of the beast and then settle down to peace and harmony again. That is not going to happen. Sure, Fallwell is dead – big deal. The Christian Right may look like it’s splintered into a bunch of groups, but they will regroup again also. We need to examine what’s happened over the past 25 years and be prepared – all we are doing right now is trying the save the Constitution today.

And this different how exactly? This is the way it has been from the beginning. John Adams didn’t just stroll into the Continental Congress and say “Right, then, are we all agreed on independence?”. It’s been an ongoing struggle ever since, with setbacks and gains with each and every generation. Now it’s our turn to step up to the plate. Well, here I am.

LooHoo
This a long battle as much I like Sheedan I need power. It’s done 2 ways She stays in the streets were it done at and every one else does what they think is right. It’s in the streets No more hiding
Sorry Dinner is done
jo6pac

This is kind of a funny sentence from the Cap’n:

It took a few moments to get the call started, but it started with a quick outline of the issues.

Translation: Ed Gillespie’s new Regent interns haven’t mastered the conference call technology.

noen @ 252

phred @ 240

Glad to hear you’re warming to it noen — I know we have wrangled over this before. I really really believe the precedent would be far worse than any other outcome.

We have. I was strongly persuaded by KagroX and others from DailyKos. I felt their arguments were very strong and besides, I’m no expert in any of this.

I get confused and turned around just about every other day by these lying scoundrels. Everyday it’s a new outrage. I don’t know what to think sometimes.

But I can be kind of stubborn ya know.

It is an argument well worth having — afterall, if we can’t convince our friends, how can we hope to persuade our enemies :)

noen @ 246

Eli @ 234

Didn’t Sara Taylor already admit that she “swore an oath to uphold the president”?

She did but then corrected herself immediately. I took it as a sign of her emotional loyalty to Bush and not as an actual oath.

Not exactly, Leahey “pointed out” to her that she took an oath to the Constitution, not the President. Then she said “Errr! Right!”

If Leahey had not given her this out, and calmly and quietly asked if she had “documentation” of making that “oath to the President”, or asked “when she took it”, was it with other people? In front of the President? Given by Abu? Etc. it could have gotten very interesting.

Unfortunately, Leahey didn’t do what a good Prosecutor would do…and gave her the out!

dakine01 @ 255

Sorry cinnamonape, it is not 2/3 of voting members. It is 2/3 of the body, i.e. 67 votes. It would be nice if it were 2/3 of voting members but reality is otherwise

Dakine you are wrong….

Here’s what the Constitution says

The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.

It doesn’t require 2/3rds of the whole body. If there are resignations, or absences then the number is LESS THAN the 2/3rds of the full body. In fact, once a quorum is established (50% 1 of the body…currently 51 votes), an impeachment conviction can occur with 2/3rd’s of THAT!

This could pose some problems for those who chose to boycott a proceeding.

I will correct one thing however. An abstention is essentially a “NO” vote…since the requirement is that 2/3rds of “those present” is required…and a Senator that is present, but abstains, is not counted in that number. It’s better that they not be “present” at all.

Let’s fix the media first. If we had principled and competent MSM in this country, BushCo Inc. wouldn’t have made it to first base.

oddball @ 239

Tis is the only way impeachment will happen. Cindy Sheehan must start polling over 30% vs. Nancy.

It is a shame that one district in California could put impeachment “on the table”.

When Nancy started to triangulate the political gains of taking impeachment off the table, she became just as bad as the Bushies.

Think about it. We are pushing the investigation of the politicization of the Justice Dept. Nancy is simply just making justice about politics and political gains.

Defend the Constitution Nancy. History will be very kind to you.

Exactly right OddBall!! When Cindy announces and makes a way to contribute to her campaign, I intend to send as much of my retirement income to her every single month as I can possibly spare. If enough people around the country would do likewise, just the amassing warchest might be enough to shake Pelosi out of her frustrating intransigence.

We need to take lessons from illegal immigrants on how to organize and protests, although they did not win on their issue, they certainly knows how to organize. They can put a rally together at the push of a button.

Are all of you too young to remember how the press just could not get enough of the Clinton Sex Scandal? It was on all the channels, all the time, they could not get enough, so the Republicans had no problems keeping it going long enough to try to impeach him for a non-impeachable offense. The corporate press and their owners simply cannot get excited over a dry dusty, old piece of paper called the constitution. If the Democrats could find a way to throw a little sex in the equation to help their “sale” of the news, they would get right on it! Perhaps if we can get the politics straightened out, we can find some adults, with some sense of history, economics and/or law to report the news as it really happens. Then some enterprising person would not have to call an anchor and explain to her who was filibustering bills and that is why the Dems had to hold all-night sessions to bring it to the public’s attention, so they can get an up, or down, vote and move those promised bills on through. It is really hard to call it to the attention of the public, when you first have to call it to the attention of the “press”. There are just so many loose ends to pull everything back together again!

I do not see what is the big deal about impeachment with Congress. I is so clear that we need to get rid of the f—ing cockroach!

I forgot the “t” in it as in, “it is so clear they need to get rid of the f—ing cockroach”

What would it take to get Congress to impeach? I’m afraid it might be the same thing that only impeachment might prevent: a preemptive, possibly nuclear attack on Iran. I would hold every member of Congress who is blocking or tabling impeachment responsible if it comes to that.

I feel your pain, I share this pain and only find consolation in the memory of John Wesley Dean III launching the blizzard that was “Watergate”. You only have to remember that these bastards are ruthless and when they start running short of fodder it’s just a matter of time before they start feeding on their own. That’s where the John Deans’ come from, god bless em’ and once the ball starts rolling its all over. People will jump on a bandwagon whether its going up hill or down. The story is amazing to begin with, just think how it will read after Hollywood has had a shot at it.

Optimistically, Pelosi and the hill Dems are saying impeachment is off the table to get the bushies more emboldened. With the Abu stinkfest this week one could say it’s working. A bit more of that, with some real momentum, and we have popular support when they – pleeez -pleez pleez – start the impeachment process. But they also need some really good lawyers to build a compelling case and story. We gotta pray someone is working this kind of strategy.

Toby Martin @ 212

I love my country so much, I’m going to sacrifice myself to get us to the impeachment threshold. I’m going to give Bush a blow job. That’ll do it. TOBY @212. I have a blindfold I”ll lend you../

Gannon/Guckert was when I stopped paying the slightest attention to the press (a habit which I highly recommend). Any idiot could see that having a gay prostittute in the White House is the sort of scandal that will sell paper, regardless of politics. Not doing anything about it means that they are compromised, pure and simple.

This does bring something to mind – who is the new Gannon ? Everything I know of human nature says that there is a new one.

It’s all unfolding like some nightmare novella….

Interesting in a horrifying way….

So let’s stay tuned and please pass the popcorn…

It will take a Sunday afternoon bee-jay from a jewish girl.

Mikey @ 97

Impeachment needs to be used so much more. It’s like a mini State of the Union address, albeit a bit more specific, that the people can summon whenever they think they aren’t in the know-how of the wheres, whats and whys of our nation, government, and military.

As for Eli, all I have to say to you is that your answer is all of the above.

From the people’s perspective it is a waste of time, but that’s because they know that Congress can never indict anybody they impeach due to god knows what.

From Congress’s perspective it’s about what American politiks are always about; elections. They know that an impeachment process gone wrong could possibly disrupt their astounding advantage.

Apparently they think it’s worth the wait. I’m not sure myself, there are a lot of ways it could be played. However, it mustn’t be played patiently due to weakness or fear.

In my opinion, Congress is really starting to gain its momentum in the favor of not the Democrats, but truly that of the people.

The 9/11 commission appropriation bill passed today and would more than likely sustain a veto override, and there are reports on this very website of Congress’s slow but positive progress.

I think we should do exactly what you mused, we should all get together and talk about what the best course of action is.

Phule @ 7

Or solid evidence that they ordered the death of Pat Tillman for use as propaganda against ‘Teh Enemy’.

I’ve heard the three shots in the forehead look more like an execution than an accident, but I find it hard to believe that no one comes forward even anonymously, although we’ve had plenty of alleged conspiracies which held together over the years. We’re perhaps too far gone to notice the water’s boiling.

This is not necessarily true: [}Very obviously, the program Mueller referred to was the Terrorist Surveillance Program.”]

The “other programs” could be things _far too scary_ to contempate. Recall, this Preident is linked with war crimes: It means nothing for him to set up camps, and make people disappear. “all for the cause. . .”

Put the burden on the President: Prove those internment camps you’ve built aren’t being used; and that the prisoners aren’t out “exercising” when the Auditors arrive
……….
NSC-RUN PROGRAM, LIKE IRAN-CONTRA, OUTSIDE CONGRESSIONAL-LEGAL OVERSIGHT

An “NSA/NSC” supporting function/unit does not necessarily mean intelligence gathering or intercepts. NSA-NSC-related units can be assigned anywhere; and their intelligence gathering is not isolated to electronic methods. It could involve civilian contractors assigned to commercial entities not obviously connected with the US government; and not obviously involved with verification of Signals intelligence. The personnel may or may not have any idea that they are assigned to a group that relies on NSA-collect information or that they are involved with verifying information the NSA/NSC has an interest.

. . . . .
“Why I suspect Darth Cheney involved in program origination? Comey Testimony. Philbin objected to legality of NSA program, and Addington had the biggest hand in ending Philbin’s career. Payback for ruining Addington’s pretty NSA operation. Comey dropped that name for a reason....”
– - -

Recall, it’s CIA that was sharing info with the EU on the rendition; and Plame was retaliated against by OVP: and the OVP blocking the archivist audit. Addington knew about the European Detention centers.Not getting info on the naval-based detention centers.

Recall, Iran-Contra was an NSC-run operation: Cheney was involved. Could be the same kind of thing — something run out of NSC, not the DoJ or NSA. Not clear that the “NSA” vs “NSC” is a typo: Suspect its different: NSC, not NSA, appears to be running these things.

Recall DoJ met with the intelligence personnel at various sports facilitates in DC. Keep thinking Plame and Cheney were about sending a message to Cheney’ private intelligence network — likely linked through Halliburton — to send a message: “Plame outing” is what will happen if you crosss the VP. Seems to simplistic to say this is only about oil, and retaliating against others who spill the beans. Libby’s name was mentioned in the context of “basketball,” another program — that came up during the Grand Jury reviews; his counsel was worried Fitzgerald had access to NSA-GCHQ-intercepted information of legal counsel.
. . .

Philbin was former OLC, meaning he probably clashed with Addington on the legal aspects of Rendition/prisoner abuse as well. Philbin documented his concerns, which the Congress can ask for since those memoranda and their existence on this subject have been disclosed. Mentioning Philbin may have been merely a suggestion of which people/memoranda to specifically ask for.
Philbin was aware of the “security” issues of GTMO; and likely would have been involved with discussions in detaining prisoners in Eastern Europe.

1. Support Aspect: NSA resources supporting, or outsourced “NSA” or “NSC” program doesn’t necessarily have to mean just data interception, but _use_ and _support_ of other activities: Combat, intelligence analysis, interrogation, or direct support for the CIA. Problem NSA and DOJ have is when CIA — possibly connected with this “other program” — have talked to the EU. EU may have more information about this “other program” than the Congress has been directly told or understands.

2. Direct reporting to NSC, outside Congressional oversight
IF this is an NSA “program” it could be a support function for the NSC, or one of the combatant commanders; or made to _look_ that way to hide the real objective of the activity. They may have classified it as an “NSA Program” to bury its real objective as a domestic-CIA-cover action program, which is illegal, an “open secret” but explained away as a “training program” like Operation Falcon: Use of Federal resources at the local level for training, manning support, and domestic intelligence gathering in conjunction with CIFA.

3. Posse Comitatus
This could be a special access program within DoD that is a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act, hidden as an “NSA program” but a domestic security force backed by combat forces/special forces units which have the power to issue arrest warrants, detain people, and target those who oppose the illegal activities.

4. Individual Cells, untraceable, multi-agency
I haven’t seen anything to suggest that the President could not, through DoD and CIFA, establish a Gestapo-like “NSA program” within the DoD community, and then outsource this to local law enforcement — JTTF. They’ve got people that cross flow between the guard units, local law enforcement, FBI, and to civilian jobs all day. They could be creating individual cells within JTTF units that are comprised of NSC contractors, data analysis, and law enforcement whose sole goal is to act as a direct reporting entity to the NSC. They could very well be reporting directly to people working for Cheney, and Congress and JCS might never realize who or what was actually assigned, or relying on DoD assets.

5. DoD Entities With Personnel Assigned Stateside
DoD could ery well have created “foreign entities” in other countries, who then are in charge of these personnel stationed in the US. DoD was given this power to establish foreign intelligence and combat support entities overseas; however, if that’s mutated, the NSC may have subcontracted to these DoD entities US-based personnel who directly support NSC: In effect, creating an NSC-NSA support function under DoD foreign entities, but basing their contractors in the US..

SUMMARY
Mueller appears to be referring to a sub-contracted effort which indirectly supports the NSC with a special domestic security unit. These units engage in direct engagement with state-side personnel and civilians. Contractors, law enforcement, and intelligence personnel are assigned under non-direct-NSC-NSA units, but are hidden inside commercial entities. The groups appear capable of moving quickly, with no direct supervision, but act as internal security forces, completely outside FISA oversight. They appear to be entities unrelated to FISA, but are front line units which verify information, gather intelligence domestically, and help NSC pinpoint targets which NSC contractors are assigned.

RECOMMENDATIONS
A. Congress examine the Operation Falcon; determine which NSA/NSC personnel were assigned to oversee.
B. Examine the budget lines inside the DOD foreign entities support accounts; and determine which banks are used to challenge those funds. Determine how the DOD funds are funnelled overseas through the NSC entities, then back to the US to these individual groups.

C. Review the “investigative leads” and ground rules JTTF and local law enforcement use to dissuade detection of the domestic intelligence gathering efforts.
D. Review the destruction logs of the CIFA; and determine who was supposed to keep the logs related to these classified documents.
Determine which signalling systems, monitoring, and other intelligence gathering the JTTF are using; and where this information is sent. Ultimately, it winds up somewhere: Which contractors, NSC staffers have access to these reports.
E. Examine with Congressional Counsel whether it is the intent that these domestic security services operate this way; and whether, as FISA is written, this type of activity would fall outside what the FISA Court can engage.
F. Review the DHS domestic interrogation facilities. Look at the gas mileage for the DHS pick up teams. Review the files they’ve had access to; and the basis for detaining someone. Review the complaints of citizens being forcibly removed from their cars, engines running, or being taken from their homes while school children are present in the early morning. Evidence includes car impound fees.
G. Discuss with POST and local LE efforts used to dissuade public awareness of intelligence gathering: Excuses given to hide pre-textual stops; and examine whether local officials do or do not keep adequate records related to officer complaints and requests for civilian oversight to examine officer misconduct.
H. Examine problems during audits: To what extent officers in LE, FBI, and DHS are concerned when reports of officer misconduct arise; and what methods auditors are aware to segregate complaints about officer misconduct from auditors:

1. Have they been asked to leave the room; were concerns explained away; were officers complaining they were “short manned” an unable to supervise; and how do these explanations square with the officer conduct.
2. How often are these units employed to provoke innocent civilians to respond to abuse?
3. To what extent are these domestic units used to harass civilians based on a “hunch”?
4. Would these units put the children of minors at risk to entrap a suspected target?
5. Is there no report of any of these personnel ever exposing a minor to a potentially unsafe situation to engage a target?
6. Has the FISA court, Congress, and Judiciary been fully apprised of how these units operate; their procedures; and oversight requirement to ensure 42 USC 1983 claims are minimized?
7. What insurance do these units have if they are engaged in liable action?

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/ar…..5.php#more

What would it take for Americans to be deeply concerned about the corruption and the death and destruction that the Bush administration is resposible for?

Gas prices to reach $5.oo and hour.

While this reality is terribly sad, it is the brutal truth. The majority of the American public are void of real compassion and empathy for others. Most Americans are wrapped up in greed and me and the whole world knows it.

Why do we wonder why so many people around the world fear us..this is not a mystery. Look what we have done to the people and the country of Iraq.

My impiphany monent. Not gonna’ vote for anybody who has said impeachment is off the table or We have important work to do. Bush vetoes any legislation that helps people anyway.So my ideas as to why so many are selling their souls are(1) Lots of critics of our leaders have gone dead. (2)Because the elections have been fixed big time since 2000 with no transparency in elections in a lot of states, the group in the house and senate are chosen loyal bushies shall we say. Read bradblog it’s the reason we are fascist.You have state media in fascist govts. Our brand is to have just a little fair media. Unfortunately comedy is usually involved to take away from the seriousness of our dilema.(3) Ray McGovern is saying about 13 have signed on for impeachment in the House. 7 are black lot s of women. You have to have personal experience in oppression. s

Oh, c’mon — we know exactly what is the only thing that would cause the idea of impeachment to catch fire: Shrub would have to kill a puppy with a hammer on live television.

Actually, I’m not even sure now that that would do it.

I have a question maybe people with more political sense could answer:

What is the effect of having the impeachment hearing nearer to the 11/08 elections as opposed to holding them immediately?

I can image the democratic leadership thinking that it is better to hold impeachment hearings in the Summer of ‘08 so all of the trash is fresh in the publics mind when they go to the polls instead of giving the republicans over a year for the public to forget and the media to put out alternate narratives.

I guess this is just wishfull thinking on my part that there will be an impeachment. It so desperately needs to happen for the long-term health of the country.

No signature crime. Bush has done so many things that none is salient enough for the public. His worst crime, lying us into Iraq, was not reported as a lie till the deed was long done, so confusion exists over it. Many people who now think it was a mistake think it was misguided, rather than criminal. Watergate was clearly a crime, reported clearly and consistently that way.

“He wrote signing statements that allowed him to put himself above the law” just doesn’t sound as criminal as “he covered up a burglary”.

Xycor @ 289

I have a question maybe people with more political sense could answer:

What is the effect of having the impeachment hearing nearer to the 11/08 elections as opposed to holding them immediately?

I can image the democratic leadership thinking that it is better to hold impeachment hearings in the Summer of ‘08 so all of the trash is fresh in the publics mind when they go to the polls instead of giving the republicans over a year for the public to forget and the media to put out alternate narratives.

I guess this is just wishfull thinking on my part that there will be an impeachment. It so desperately needs to happen for the long-term health of the country.

It would be a huge mistake. Given the time needed to impeach and remove the preznit, it would be sold by the right as a pure political ploy, and I think the electorate would see it that way too. It really does have to be right now.