“This war is so fucking illegal.” (Patrick Tillman)
From the AP:
SAN FRANCISCO –
Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player’s death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.
“The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
The doctors – whose names were blacked out – said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.
In other words, Pat Tillman was most likely murdered in the field. In cold blood. By other US soldiers.
This must be what the Bush Administration was trying so desperately to hide behind their all purpose “Executive Privilege” shield.
Also from the AP article:
Among other information contained in the documents:
_ In his last words moments before he was killed, Tillman snapped at a panicky comrade under fire to shut up and stop “sniveling.”
_ Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments.
_ The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman’s death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn’t recall details of his actions.
_ No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene – no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.
The Pentagon and the Bush administration have been criticized in recent months for lying about the circumstances of Tillman’s death. The military initially told the public and the Tillman family that he had been killed by enemy fire. Only weeks later did the Pentagon acknowledge he was gunned down by fellow Rangers.
I wonder how long it will take the John Derbyshires and Michelle Malkins of the Rabid Right to insist that Tillman was to blame for his own murder. Start the countdown. Let’s synchronize our watches…
Because remember, kids, nobody supports the troops like the Republicans. Until they do something that’s bad for PR like get hurt or killed or dare to actually tell the truth about the GOP’s Great War on Civilians. Then it’s off to the trash heap of history with them.
Tillman’s mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers and looks forward to the congressional hearings next week.
“Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It’s about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived,” she said.
Of all the disgraceful, sickening things our country has done in the name of “spreading liberty” in the Great War on Terrah, this one is a real prize-winner. I only hope that his family can find some kind of peace in the days ahead. In the wake of such a devastating loss followed by a breathtaking series of insults and brush-offs from the US government and the leadership of the armed forces, if I were in their shoes, I think I would simply have lost my mind by now.



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Zed?
Nice shot, diva!
Now go tell the others we’re up here.
hi low
Crap.
Yay, me
But, dang, some of my best comments are EPU’d again. Sigh.
Oh. Sorry.
(((((((TRex!!!)))))))
I let downstairs know. Now I’ll go read the post, which I’m sure is exceptionally hard-hitting, yet elegantly eloquent.
Funnydiva
Coincidence that a General was demoted yesterday and the article came out today.. I think not.
Kevin, in partnership with his brother’s spirit, are waging such a courageous fight – i wish them every strength possible.
When the Tillmans testified I could barely contain myself. So honorable, so outstanding. That young man was so well spoken and expressed his intellect and his emotions having to do with his brothers death (now murder) so articulately.
After the Tillmans take out those responsible for hiding the truth about Pat, I hope Kevin runs for an office.
Are they saying Tillman was fragged?
Kids, I’m rushing around trying to put together my show for tonight which goes on the air in, uh, 31 minutes. Crrrrrrrrrap. I’ll be back in just a bit.
If you’d like to listen to my show tonight, fire up your non-Mozilla browser and go here:
http://www.wuga.org/listen_online.html
Back in a bit.
Simply disgraceful… Peace to his family
IntelVet @ 9
That would seem to be the gist of it.
Not all Americans were deceived, millions marched before the invasion trying to save Pat Tillmans, Casey Sheehans and innocent Iraqi people.
There were just too many experts out there questioning the intelligence and the intentions to not question the agenda of the Bush administration in Iraq.
We all want to know the freaking truth. The truth! Why is it that every possible twist and turn is a LIE?
Ed*ard Teller @ 149
Loo Hoo. @ 133
I hadn’t read it, ET. Good to see you, btw. How’s mom?
Mom’s GREAT! Just turned 89. Finishing two quilts, while listening to Thom Hartman this morning. An auto repair place just over the hill apparently has non-password wifi, so I get no vacation from the lake. I might have Millie – my mom – blogging before this trip is over.
I’m looking for the earlier link on Tillamn getting multiple shots to the forehead. I’m pretty sure I got it here, but I bookmarked it on my old laptop, which is 1,500 miles away in Alaska.
Wonderful, ET! Would ET’s mom officially be the oldest commenting member of the Lake?
Nobody’s said it yet, so I will:
Tillman.
Oh boy!
Just got back from a nice dinner on the terrace, and I want to throw it all back up. I am trembling. Is this true?
I’ve lost two brothers, neither of them to friendly or enemy fire, but to circumstances beyond my control. My parents are the people for whom I grieve. I also grieve for Pat Tillman’s parents and siblings. It is those of us who are left behind who suffer most. I hope with all my heart for justice for the Tillmans.
TRex @ 12
or, to prevent him from embarassing bush a(s he was going to come out against the Iraqi war).
At lest Nixon knew how to have his scandals one at a time, this multiple overlapping interwoven tapestry of corruption, criminality, and deception of the monkey king steps on some stories that really do need to be told.
Pat Tillman’s murder was obvious to all that were willing to see it, from the very first reports. That his parents and siblings still fight for the truth is a tribute to his spirit. May they have the strength to keep working, against all odds, towards bringing this nation into the light.
Holy crap. This is un-f***ing believable.
Actually, it’s completely believable. If Tillman was fragged, then they sure would want to cover it up (his celebrity would make it a huge story).
My word – this is something that everyone should hear about. The deception on this issue came from orders from the top of our government – the President’s speech writer said he was aware (and made his superiours aware) that Tillman’s death was by US forces, and Bush continued to give speeches saying it was friendly fire.
Un-f***ing believable.
This was thorougly documented years ago by Stan Goff.
Let me get this straight. Does the story mean that he was deliberately murdered? I read somewhere that his diary had been confiscated and destroyed. This is beyond belief. I can understand the Bush administration doing it, but not the army. What is the back story here?
“The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman’s death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn’t recall details of his actions.“.
70 times? Who could be so effing stoopid… oh, wait…
dwwenz @ 17
I’m so sorry for your loss. Yes, I think the loss of a child must be the worst of all. Life is not supposed to work that way.
How many believe we’ll get the truth, the complete truth, and the only truth, about Pat Tillman’s death? I don’t. And I beleive that if this U.S. government wanted to sacrifice you for some reason (e.g., to reinforce some assertion of the president) many would question the government’s action.
Tragic, just tragic.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 22
Is this the link?
http://www.fromthewilderness.c…..iles.shtml
I think my sadness eclipses my outrage. Tillman was a true hero. WHY was he (allegedly) murdered by his own soldiers? WHY was his possible murder not adequately investigated? WHY has the cover-up gone on so long? It’s beyond comprehension, and as someone mentioned earlier, if I were in the Tillman family shoes I would be a “basket case” by now. It’s just so terribly sad.
Sweet merciful crap.
Once I’ve collected my lower jaw from the floor, I realize that this revelation explains a heck of a lot.
Kathryn in MA @ 18
argosfalcon @ 19
They’re subjecting us to “outrage overload”. Hoping we cannot keep up with the scandals and crimes, that we’ll just give up.
Anyone feel like giving up?????
eCAHNomics @ 25
Thank you, eCAHN. Every time I am with my parents, I cry inside. No one should out live his/her children.
The question is, where are the soldiers that were with Tillman on that fateful day.?
landofthefree @ 21
Criminal. All part of the tyranny that comes wrapped in the Flag and carrying the Bible.
Mild-mannered me is /this close/ to burning that flag in public. Guess I’d only burn the Bible in effigy: the effigy of a bible-toting, would-be emperor–our own modern-day Caligula.
Feh!
FunnyDiva
Hiya, Diva, don’t think we’ve met yet. Love your handle!
This administration seems to have allergic reactions to truth, integrity, and ethics.
I truly hope the Tillman family gets the truth they deserve, and the nation is listening.
This house of cards is taking longer to fall than one could think possible, but come down it will!!
What needs to happen somehow is to find out who handled the PR…who put out the original fake story.
This is sure telling of a familiar M.O.:
“The three-star general who kept the truth about Tillman’s death from his family and the public told investigators some 70 times that he had a bad memory and couldn’t recall details of his actions.“
We can’t let this go.
TILLMAN
Josh Marshall reminded us to be outraged the other day, wrt AGAG testimony. But there is so much to be outraged about, I’m afraid I’ve become battered.
Knut Wicksell @ 23
They protect their own. As long as “their own” do the C-in-C’s bidding, that is.
With BushCo everything is the message. Remember the quote that THEY create the reality. Well, in this case, the truth wasn’t inspiring. So…poof…they changed it. Just like they did with Jessica Lynch.
Knut Wicksell @ 23
Why are you surprised. The military is famous (as are police forces) for taking care of their own and for doing anything to avoid scrutiny.
Three M-16 bullets to the forehead?
I think anybody can undestand that as cold blooded murder.
And anybody can understand that there is
no legitimate reason to try to claim executive privilege,
other than good old fashioned CYA coverup.
Tillman is great. Hero then, hero now. That is extra criminal for those who killed him and those who commited crimes amid his death.
Then if there are war crimes swirling around this and them trodding on his death to boot walk into office in 2004.
Never give up never surrender, and never let the bastards rest until they are brought to answer for their crimes.
eCAHNomics- Looks right to me. I thought it was a couple years ago but I guess not.
Diva @ 31
This is exactly how this administration was designed to run from the beginning. Perfect.
Funnydiva2002 @ 34
Hi, back at ya, FunnyDiva! I’ve been Diva or DivaBabe, for a long time all around these tubes called the “Internets”. There is plenty of diva attitude to go around, no? :-)
Guess their house of cards is stuck together with “Crazy Glue”
allan_in_upstate @ 41
Amen, Allan.
They’re subjecting us to “outrage overload”. Hoping we cannot keep up with the scandals and crimes, that we’ll just give up.
Anyone feel like giving up?????
Not I, diva.
Expect lots of, um, subtle (cough, cough) reminders from the Right that the Tillmans are atheists, against the war in Iraq… Going to be real hard to overcome that NFL stardom thing, though. This one counts in the heartland.
GordonM @ 24
On Olbermann tonight, Wes Clark said that the decision to (approve the) coverup was surely made “above the three-star level.”
GordonM @ 24
You thinking who I’m thinking??? Gonzo, perhaps???
Diva @ 31
Not a chance…when it rains it poors. Bushco won’t be able to withstand too much more…if this story gains ANY traction at all, the GOP defections will become enormous.
Try though I may I can never come to see how W looks at the world. It’s just so foreign to me. I’ve read book after book-Bush on the Couch, Kelley’s The Family, others. Every time I think I understand it, it slips away. I can’t put myself in their shoes. I actually understand what motivates a suicide bomber completely, but not W. What he has done is so much crueler, and with no excuse.
Holy crap. If this is true, multiple bullets in the forehead, then even the “I’m Pat Fucking Tillman” story is bogus.
Fozzetti @ 47
Their house of cards is stuck together with the blood of other people’s children. For this they must pay — if not before 2009, then after. There are boundless crimes here that have statutes of limitations that run beyond the next 18 months.
And the question is how many people have been willing to hide the truth? Of course, we know about W, Dick, and TurdBlossom…but is everyone willing to drink the koolaid for this evil pursuit? With Gonzo and the hospital lies, ignoring the sub poenas, lies about the war and Plame…how much more will it take for a serious outrage? Rumfield had to be in on this as well. We have a cabal of war criminals. I am not one usually to listen to fear tactics; I’m afraid I’m reaching the point to be afraid not to be afraid. Where are the elder statesmen like Hamilton and Baker now?
Loo Hoo. @ 49
And so we fight! Like the Jewish Partisians….
before anyone goes blambing his fellow soilders are you sure there where no blackwaters in the area.There must be some purpose for private contractors?God bless the Tillmans and Pat the true man,for Pat the truth and nothingf less will do thank you
GordonM @ 24
Bad memory is not exactly high on the list of qualities that a promotions board looks at.
Throw the book at him. Hard. Losing one star isn’t even close to enough punishment. He lied to the family of one of his own fallen. Repeatedly. The man has no honor.
For the DOD lurkers, let me add this: every member of the United States Armed Forces is watching, and they’ve all got the same question rolling through their heads: “If I die, will the DOD lie to my family?“
janda @ 53
Expect a tsunami of a push-back! Brace yourself!
eCAHNomics @ 37
Each revelation is a chink in the armor. We all new they were terrible, evil people; now a chance is emerging where something can be done about it.
Channel the rage.
Give up? Hell, no.
sport the trewps, sport the trewps, sport the trewps!!!
I’m not sure I’m onboard with there being a conspiracy to kill Tillman. Definitely killed by a fellow American, I realize, but couldn’t it be the result of a young, scared to death soldier who just kept firing. Or a ticked off soldier who fired impulsively. I’ve seen no evidence of a conspiracy to kill him. Have I missed something?
three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead
three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead
three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead
TILLMAN!!
Good Q. Who else was there? Special forces? CIA?
Every fracking day. But then I come here and read what all you good people have to say and realize that as long as there is breath in my body, I will fight fight FIGHT to make this country live up to its ideals.
Otherwise, what’s the point?
solai @ 65
Certainly a conspiracy to cover up, though..
Fern @ 40
I don’t see what the military’s interest was. I really don’t. I understand the administration’s interest, but not why the military, which was just carrying out a mission, would kill him. This had to come from upstairs. That’s the implication of my unbelief.
heading out for an errand…be back in a while to catch up with the rest of you…
There is nothing, nothing, Nothing this Government wont do to cover their atrocities. I’m going to have a restless and anguished sleep tonight.
Unfortunately, I think that will, sadly, be better than what the Tillman family has.
solai @ 65
If that were the case, why not just say so from the get-go? The lies continue.
Well lets hope that the storm clouds of outrage keep building up over Washington and the down pour of scorn, and indignation sweeps these insects out of office. And into nice warm jail cells. Call me a dreamer.
solai @ 65
Doesn’t matter – what matters is that they covered up the truth. He was killed by someone who was in our military and if the truth is not told by somebody we will never know. Shouldn’t we find out if that soldier who shot him needs to be disciplined?
JPL @ 69
For sure.
solai @ 65
There was certainly a conspiracy to cover up. As to conspiracy before the fact, what did the murderer(s) think was going to happen with such a high profile victim? The only way they would think they could get away with it is if they were told it would be covered up.
It could have been impulsive, but I find it hard to believe a troop would do that to a football hero. And bullets/bullet wounds? Were they all from the same gun, or more than one?
Tillman wasn’t just killed by another soldier, he was killed by another Army Ranger (I assume). Seems more disturbing when you consider that he was among his elite brethren here, not your ordinary soldier.
TRex @ 68
Exactly! We cannot let the “terrorists” win, can we???
solai @ 65
The autopsy indicates a close group of three shots to the forehead, so I’ve read. If that’s correct, this would be hard to dismiss as an accident or a panic. Someone wanted that man very dead.
The cost of the Iraq war so far, $500 billion dollars. Rand study of the the effectiveness of pro war propaganda, $400,000. The loss of Pat Tilman, and 4000 dead from the coalition of the willing, priceless. The cost of genocide, 600,000 dead Iraqis, and a broken country, cannot be measured. But the death, destruction and falsehoods, belong to the Republican party.
JPL @ 69
Absolutely! Otherwise, why all the extremely detailed effort to cover the truth????
Twain @ 75
Not only did they cover up the truth, they seem to have taken advantage of the ongoing cover-up and expanded the cover-up in order to use the death of a celebrity sports hero (who thought the war was illegal = justification to screw him in death) to “advertise” their fucking illegal war.
correction
terroriststerissThis from Government Executive (which I’d never heard of):
“A retired three-star general criticized for misleading investigators probing the controversial death of Cpl. Pat Tillman could be stripped of a star and face a decrease in retirement pension, Pentagon officials told CNN. Retired Lt. Gen. Phillip Kensinger misled investigators when he said he did not know until after Tillman’s 2004 memorial service that Tillman’s death in Afghanistan was likely the result of ‘friendly fire,’ said acting Defense Department Inspector General Thomas Gimble.”
LS @ 66
Yeah. Had to be shots at close range.
BushCo not only doesn’t tell the truth, they don’t believe in truth. All they believe in is what the message should be. And that becomes their truth.
I’m with Solai at 65. It’s getting a little hysterical in here.
wow trex, I tune in to your trexousity for teh snark but when you get pissed, watch out for teh piss
nice read…more of that please
wigwam @ 51
It does seem that the person who gets blamed for it is usually at least a couple of ranks below the one responsible.
JPL @ 69
Yep.
A panicked soldier, good with his weapon, and Pat Tillman is dead. It’s terrible, horrible, and understandable. Mistakes happen as the bullets are flying.
But the reaction of the DOD . . . that’s a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. Tillman was their poster boy, and they couldn’t stomach having him die from friendly fire. Oh, no — he had to die doing something like storming the beaches of Normandy or climbing San Juan hill or defending the Alamo.
My contempt for the higher eschelon at the DOD knows no bound over the way they have handled this. (Even more contempt than punaise has for Short Ride Joe.) I have sat with too many grieving families to countenance LYING TO THE BEREAVED.
Loo Hoo. @ 85
Oh, the horrors!!! Stripped of a STAR???? No, no, no-anything but that!!!!
This coup has been 30 years in the making, even before Nixon. The tentacles Cheney has into every strategic corner of our government has been carefully planned and deployed. Look at elections alone – subvert the ballot box, plant operatives who will count the votes correctly, own the media who will broadcast the results, stack the courts so objections will be tossed (both state and federal level) – and that’s just elections!
I think Pappy Bush and James Baker have a master plan, but W is getting rattled and panicked, esp with Cheney pushing his own agenda on him, and now he is making stupid mistakes. i think they have assassinated a few and gotten away with it, and W just pulled one too many.
Dover Bitch @ 55
Holy crap. If this is true, multiple bullets in the forehead, then even the “I’m Pat Fucking Tillman” story is bogus.
And if I’m reading it right, the soldier who testified about that, to Waxman, was the one on the ground next to Tillman, who Tillman told to stop sniveling?
A simple motive right there, possibly?
eCAHNomics @ 54
The very, very rich (and entitled) are different from you and I.
And EPU’d from last thread: Cheers!
argosfalcon @ 74
Somebody fluff this guys pillow..)
There were Afghan regulars in his ground if what I remember right. But the fact that his was kill by his own side is not in dispute, his death was used as a propaganda tool, and the real circumstances of his death were covered up. The out come one general is demoted and has to retire early to a lobbying job and is forced to play a lot of golf.
Using executive privilege to cover up a murder. Hmm, does that make Bush an accessory to homicide? Can we impeach now?
Tim @ 88
We didn’t start the rumor that it was a fragging. It was on the news & Wes Clark talked about it. Hardly an hysterical nutcase, he.
Loo Hoo. @ 85
As I mentioned at #51: “On Olbermann tonight, Wes Clark said that the decision to (approve the) coverup was surely made “above the three-star level.”
If he was murdered there had to be a motive.
He was murdered because?
He was about to come out and say the GWOT was a crock and this would be so devastating that they had to use him for propaganda instead?
The murderer was a true believer and zealot and saw Pat as a turncoat and offed him?
Someone was on crack and whacked out?
What could the motive be?
Eureka Springs @ 96
Maybe even put a mint on it! :-)
Diva @ 82
The Suskind quote (paraphrased): It’s a new world; we act, and you study our actions…
Jay @ 78
Anyone know what kind of officer he was? the assumption is that he was a hero, but we don’t know that.
I’m just stunned. This is awful. It is bad enough that he was murdered, but the White House lied about it and covered it up. It makes me feel sick, the way his parents and siblings were treated.
Kathryn in MA @ 93
It’s not “Pappy,” it’s “Poppy,” a nickname that stems from his childhood, though I missed why when I read Kelley’s book & didn’tgo back to find out why. In any event, that book portrays him as too dumb & lazy to do any planning. Every action of his adult life was devoted to the goal of becoming prez. Beyond that he did not think.
Kathryn in MA @93,
Your first paragraph really sums things up nicely. There is so much more to the current state of affairs than the current incompetent criminals running the government.
eCAHNomics @ 99
The point is-we’ll never really know as long as they keep sandbagging the investigation, will we?
OT-Trex, I’m listening to your show, and I must say, you have a beautiful voice. Especially for a therapod. I imagined it would be rough and gravelly but it’s not. :)
I am not a lawyer but it appears that there is ground for a civil suit NO ? His mother and famiy should file civil suit against the US gov, army etc..the whole gang. Maybe a lawyer can comment here.
Jay @ 78
Does anyone have a clue, a guess, even a speculation, as to why another Army Ranger would kill Sgt. Tillman?
Diva @ 31
F**K NO! Firepups have been fighting for a long time, but the American People have Not Yet Begun To Fight. And if the whole pathetic, tragic mess that is the Tillman coverup serves to mobilize Joe Sixpack and Jack Nascar and Jane MallShopper, so much the better. It’s not a Constitutional tragedy, but on the human level, it’s actually much worse than one. And the human level is what will ultimately get everyone mobilized. (from my keyboard to God’s printer).
FunnyDiva
(Dam! my broadband just went down at 6:53, so I hve to wait to actually post. Dam!)
solai @ 65
I agree with you. I’m not sure at all that there was a “conspiracy” to kill him, but there seems to have been a conspiracy to cover-up his manner of death and possibly a probable frag. There does appear to be a conspiracy to go along with the cover-up and knowingly put out false propaganda because of his celebrity to push the nobility of dying for the administration’s policies.
sonate @ 29
If I was a conspiracy theorist…..you know how the events of 911 made Tillman sign up? Maybe his death was meant to get a bunch more people to sign up.Of course, I’m not a theorist.
SanderO @ 101
Pat was going to speak out but i don;t think a fellow soldier would do that.
What catches my attention are the bullet holes in Tillman’s forehead. All three ‘taps’ are in very close pattern.
Everything about Pat Tillman’s death makes me sick. These people have no shame.
Ralph @ 111
Cuz he didn’t sport the trewps? Cuz yer either with us or yer with the terris, so he musta been with the terris?
solai @ 39
OK, “living under rock alert”
anyone got a linky for the real Jessica Lynch story?
Thanks.
FunnyDiva.
GordonM
Clink of glasses, gentle swish of liquor, tinkle of ice.
Hard to believe it was anything but murder, cover-up or no. It was close in, he obviously doesn’t look like an Afghan; he identified himself. The man beside him survived, which is the only argument so far against murder.
Two words:
David Kelley
ccmask @ 114
People ending up dead hardly seems like an inducement to sign up.
Diva @ 108
There’s 2 levels. Why was he killed? Who knows.
But how to react to it went straight to the top. “Make him a hero like Jessica Lynch”.
argosfalcon @ 97
The fact that this info has been leaked after the claims of EP by Bush in the matter says that there are folks on the inside as p*ss’d at this as we are. But because of the structure and strictures of the DoD, it is difficult to jump up and say I did it (the leak that is)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 116
Yes.
Fragging is not uncommon in war.
Ralph @ 111
Orders?
this is just up on think progress;
Conyers seeks copies of Mueller’s notes.
this is great stuff but there is a catch that conyers missed
seems mueller was so distressed about the events as they transpired he took notes
conyers formally requested those notes
that was a mistake, he should have had a judge issue a subpeona and he should have fetched those notes immediately before the president invokes executive priviledge
not too smart for him to let the president get wind of those notes and not already have a copy in hand
Diva said
Hugh keeps a list and updates it frequently.
Send it to everyone you know..)
Knut Wicksell @ 121
Link?
Jane on the Tillman mess, over a year ago:
Lots of good questions there.
“Pat was going to speak out but i don;t think a fellow soldier would do that.”
What if it was a fellow Ranger that was a true believer as SanderO put it, one that Tillman was wont to put in his place, a la the “sniveling” comment?
There is a good description of Tillman’s military rank on Wikipedia.
Fern @ 104
Tillman was enlisted. Not sure what rank but I’m thinking he was a Corporal E-4. Which would make him a team leader. He was not a platoon leader, he was not commissioned. He was a troop in ranks. No more. No less.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 126
Latter part of Viet Nam, yes. I don’t know about the all volunteer army.
Knut Wicksell @ 121
I think that’s pushing it just a little. I’m not ready for a conspiracy theory here either.
eCAHNomics @ 130
Kelley was the British expert on biological arms control who was found dead near his home in Oxfordshire shortly before the Iraq invasion. He was on the commission that investigated WMD in Iraq and had a lot of contacts there. When the BBC broke the story of Blair having hyped the threat, his name came out as a source. A couple of weeks later he was found dead. He was also in correspondence with Judith Miller shortly before he died. The death was mysterious, but was eventually declared a suicide.
In my twenty years of service to Uncle Sam, my enlisted buddies have remarked on occasions that we would Frag a LT or Capt(or higher) if we were ever sent into combat under their tutelage! Let’s say to ensure our survival! However, at no time were enlisted members ever marked. Why would a Spec4 Ranger ever be Triple Tapped is beyond my comprehension! Of course, Shrub, had to bury the facts, it would have stunned the world if the truth had came out at that time! It is still stunning, yet, at this juncture, we’re so numb from all the travesties it doesn’t have the same net result!
dakine01 @ 133
Okay. Obviously I misunderstood.
eCAHNomics @ 54
Bush is a monsterous sociopathic sadist and dry or not so dry drunk – a failed inhumane creature posing as a human being and just as evil as Death Cheney.
Am glad this story is being spotlighted again and bless you TRex for keeping it on the front page.
TheOtherWA @ 109
Listening to the music on TRex’s show is helping to assuage my anger a bit tonight. Thanks TRex :-)
Its the if it was a ranger, with all the lies, who else could have been with his team? As to coming forward the military has was to keep you from talking, kind of like the mob.
perris @ 128
Judges don’t issue subpoenas — congressional committees do. Lawyers can demand testimony and evidence, and the role of judges is to see that the demands are within the scope of the case, executed correctly, and the like.
Conyers didn’t screw up here. He’s asking politely, before issuing the demand via a subpoena. And if Muller is as pissed as he seems, he might even stiff 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and either give up his notes or resign in protest and then testify about it.
dakine01 @ 133
He was a specialist who was promoted to corporal posthumously, according to wikipedia.
There is no depth of evil or corruption to which this administration will not sink.
Eureka Springs @ 129
Hot Damn!!! Hugh must update it hourly! ;-)
Thanks for the link!
people need to start coming to grips with how despicable our gov’t is. they’ve done a lot of horrible shit and this pales in comparison to the other crimes that go unmentioned.
Bush is not smart enough to play this game… he is getting help from someone… or rather they are running this game and he is their puppet.
The wanted these wars so badly they would literally do anything to sell the american sheeple on it.
Anyone who try to undermine their story was crushed, outed and in this case it appears killed.
I suppose the figured Jessica Lynch would fall in line because of the hero role they put her in an just play the part… dumb country bumpkin she was. She had read integrity and when she could speak she did… too late to off her, but she played her part for the press push.
These people want these wars real bad. And don’t excuse the pentagon… they are in the war business. They love a good fight. It’s what they do and they need to justify their existence.
Imagine the people admitting that the invincible US military is a bunch of cowards, thieves and murdering nut cases. There are a lot of horror stories in Iraq we are not hearing because the press is not there to report the madness.
An off-topic FYI, in case you didn’t read the other jaw-dropping story of the day:
Former Contractor Testifies that Kidnapped Filipino Slaves used to build US Embassy in Iraq
A quote:
The link to the full story at ThinkProgress includes video.
SanderO @ 101
After reading the article TRex linked, my first thought was that the soldier next to him, who was already freaking out, might’ve been offended by Tillman’s insulting language about his “god.” Shortly after the tragedy a chaplain debriefed the unit and reported this:
The chaplain said that O’Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, “crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling …”
Judging by his family’s statements and this story, sounds like Pat Tillman was an atheist and fairly vocal about it. If so, I would imagine a Christianist would develop quite hatred of the guy.
We’ve got thousands of years of history to prove what religious zealots can do when they feel their god has been insulted.
Knutt Wicksell @ 136
Oh that David Kelley. What did he have to do with Tillman?
Do you mean that they were both murdered to serve some purpose of their masters?
I actually wouldn’t rule it out. But as I don’t know much about Kelley, and we’re trying to analyze Tillman here, I wouldn’t go there.
He was a troop in ranks and a member of the Army Rangers. From Wikipedia:
United States Army Rangers—is an elite light infantry special operations force of the United States Army Special Operations Command (USASOC); with headquarters in Fort Benning, Georgia. The Regiment is a flexible, highly-trained and rapidly deployable light infantry force with specialized skills that enable them to be employed against a variety of conventional and special operations targets.
The force specializes in airborne, air assault, light infantry and direct action operations, raids, infiltration and exfiltration by air, land or sea, airfield seizure, recovery of personnel and special equipment, and support of general purpose forces (GPF), among other uses. Each Ranger battalion can deploy anywhere in the world within 18 hours’ notice.
solai @ 65
it is very hard to get 3 close shots to the forehead… between recoil of the weapon and Tillman falling – it had to be intentional…
janda @ 143
Special*st and Corporal are the same pay grade, E4; one is considered a line or command position the other is considered an authority on a select piece of equipment (CTuttle please correct if I’m wrong).
Afghanistan/Pakistan = Drugs/$$$ When I was in Pakistan it was notable for only two three things, the proliferation of Boone & Crockett standard Flies, high quality drugs, neatly prepared for smuggling if one so desired, and random gunfire. I saw a dining room table made entirely out of hashish and you wouldn’t have suspected it, unless, perhaps, you were a dog. I think there was dirty business afoot, I was in the Military long enough to think it was something along those lines.
Peterr @ 142
Exactly – Mueller is obviously pissed, he leaked the story. He came straight out and offered up the info, saying he even has documentation.
I find the timing of both this and the Tillman information leaked to the AP interesting. Both in the same day. Are we starting to see cracks in the “protect the President” facade? Are people on the inside becoming so disgusted by this reckless, lawless administration, that some are starting to leak the truth?
Let’s hope these types of leaks, from insiders with a conscience and a committment to our nation, become more frequent and prolific.
Tim @ 88
But the article points out that there was no sign of enemy fire. How could it be anything other than murder?
Friendly fire is the term we use to describe an accidental killing in an actual firefight with the enemy. This isn’t friendly fire. Sickening.
Here is a fairly detailed report from ESPN. The first investigation was done by Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich. Kauzlarich was the first army investigator of the Tilman “fratricide”, he also helped get the Silver Star. Except, Silver Stars should not be awarded for such a situation, so the medal itself is also illegal. Kauzlarich also failed to do a proper investigation and criticized the Tilman family for their lack of religious belief.
_____________________________________
Kauzlarich said he is confident the current probe will not result in criminal charges against the shooter or shooters. He said investigators would not still be examining the incident at all if it were not for Tillman’s NFL celebrity — he walked away from a multimillion-dollar contract with the Arizona Cardinals when he enlisted — and the pressure brought to bear by Tillman’s family on a number of Washington politicos.
Asked what might finally placate the family, Kauzlarich said, “You know what? I don’t think anything will make them happy, quite honestly. I don’t know. Maybe they want to see somebody’s head on a platter. But will that really make them happy? No, because they can’t bring their son back.”
Kauzlarich, now 40, was the Ranger regiment executive officer in Afghanistan, who played a role in writing the recommendation for Tillman’s posthumous Silver Star. And finally, with his fingerprints already all over many of the hot-button issues, including the question of who ordered the platoon to be split as it dragged a disabled Humvee through the mountains, Kauzlarich conducted the first official Army investigation into Tillman’s death.
Peterr @ 91
my contempt yields to yours.
argosfalcon @ 141
Mob analogy is good to bring up. There actually are conspiracies. The mob has them around every corner. The military too. Ordinary corporations are rife with conspiracies; it’s just that those usually don’t involve murder.
As far as I’m conscerned, the point about conspiracies is to try to avoid both Type I and Type II errors. (One is accepting a false hypothesis; the other is rejecting a true hypothesis; but I can never remember which is which.)
bonkers: Judging by his family’s statements and this story, sounds like Pat Tillman was an atheist and fairly vocal about it. If so, I would imagine a Christianist would develop quite hatred of the guy.
Atheists don’t sport the trewps. They don’t want Ameruhkuh to win in Eye-Rack.
eCAHNomics @ 150
I just finished reading the link provided at #28. Before exclaiming “why shoot Pat Tillman?” read section 4 of that link.
Re the media not reporting, i also think that having a few reporters working on these stories mysteriously end up dead can put a damper on the rest’s enthusiasm
nonplussed @ 153
Well, I had been wondering why poppy production in Afghanistan has increased since NATO forces have been there.
the people of this country have never been able to deal with the rotten truth about our military and our government. the truth has always been available to johnny q public. however, the truth is ugly and johnny can’t handle the truth. the more you know, the more terrifying it gets. you think to yourself, “what kind of people could do this to their country?” the short answer–psychopaths. you think to yourself, “what kind of congress would cover up 80 yrs of dirty rotten shit?” the short answer–psychopaths.
Kathryn in MA @ 93
Don’t forget the fact that W was their second right after that intellectual giant Dan Quayle. Serves them right for settling for second best.
nonplussed @ 154
Fasscinating. The history of drugs/CIA is long & sordid.
dakine01 @ 153
Dakine, you’re right they are the same pay grade, however, he was a Spec at the time, then, laterally, ‘promoted’ to CPL posthumously! An empty gesture that is as hollow as the Silver Star he was awarded posthumously!
Well have to pop off for a bit, wandering back to 701 bc, where the disruption of water and the use of bio-weapons defeated the Assyrian army and how that defeat used as a propaganda tool gave rise to the big three religions. Back in a bit.
Knut Wicksell @ 161
This would seem to indicate the three shots were fired at very close range (closeness of the pattern).
How about this line from the Wikipedia entry on Tillman:
Political views
The September 25, 2005 edition of the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper reported that Tillman held views which were critical of the Iraq war and did not support President Bush’s re-election. According to Tillman’s mother, a friend of Tillman had arranged a meeting with Noam Chomsky, to take place after his return from Afghanistan. Chomsky has confirmed this. [14] The article also reported that Tillman urged a soldier in his platoon to vote for John Kerry in the 2004 U.S. Presidential election.[11
eCAHNomics @ 167
Yes, and as someone here mentioned a few days ago-Iran-Contra was financed by illegal drugs. (The rabid anti-drug people sure are in favor of using them for their own interests).
OT from TPM: GOP Presicandies afraid of YouTube for debating. If they’re afraid of average people asking question on video, how will they stand up to world leaders?
Richmond @ 172
The best documented is use of drugs to finance Laos portion of VN conflict. CIA actually helped build labs in Laos to process drugs so they were easier to ship from the highlands. Then they got into the U.S. by way of the coffins of dead soldiers. The funeral parlors in the U.S. retrieved them & put them into the distribution chain.
It’s seems apparent there was a cover-up. That fact has been established by the information we got today. Why?
Does anyone have a clue, a guess, even a speculation, as to why another Army Ranger would kill Sgt. Tillman?_
Perhaps that panicky comrade snapped when he heard the word sniveling.
WASHINGTON — Army Secretary Pete Geren is expected to recommend demoting a retired three-star general for his role in providing misleading information to investigators about the friendly-fire shooting of Pat Tillman in Afghanistan, military officials say.
In what would be a stinging and rare rebuke, Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, who headed Army special operations, is one of seven high-ranking Army officers expected to receive official reprimands for critical errors in reporting the circumstances of the Army Ranger and former Arizona Cardinals star’s death in April 2004.
If Geren does recommend to Defense Secretary Robert Gates that Kensinger lose a star and be demoted to major general, that would lower Kensinger’s retirement benefits. As an example, a lieutenant general retiring in 2006 would earn about $9,400 per month, while a major general would get about $8,500 per month.
LINK WARNING….FOXNEWS
Was Blackwater involved….
Oklahoma kiddo @ 175
Did his infor comeout after the Mueller interview? There is no doubt they knew this for a while, knew it would come out some time, and decided to put it out there to take attention off the Mueller statement. (which means the Lohan story, Paris-Spice story and death-smelling cat story no longer are quite cutting it.
I am told by my army major efriend that some of the automatic weapons fire 57 bullets/min (iirc, but don’t take my word for it). In other words, 3 shots into the forehead by a marksman could easily occur before Tillman fell over.
coyne @ 165
Some things never change. Looking at this BBC story, 1933 sure seems alot like today, and Shrub’s grandaddy was allegedly involved ferchissakes!
Wiki has more on The Plot Against FDR.
What happens if you get stopped on the freeway for DUI? And sabotage?
AP – America’s space agency was shaken Thursday by two startling and unrelated reports: One involved claims that astronauts were drunk before flying. The other was news from NASA itself that a worker had sabotaged a computer set for delivery to the international space station.
dakine01 @ 172
Um, chest pounding? Feces throwing? Just guessing here.
eCAHNomics @ 180
A M-16 does not fire quick enough for that scenario to occur!
I believe that the M-16 has three standard firing settings: single shot, three-round burst, full automatic. A close grouping, three-rounds in the forehead from thirty feet. From what seems known about the time of day, terrain, weather, etc., the odds of Tillman being mistaken for the enemy seem low. The odds that a grouping like that was from accidental fire seem lower. Possible, but low.
The greater mystery is that the WH knew that this was a hot story and that initial reports were wrong or questionable within less than 48 hours. Two-star generals do not get involved about routine shooting deaths in a war zone. And yet the story morphed from a heroic defense against enemy fire, to a belated admission that it was a “friendly” fire accident, to suggestions of murder.
The smell of Karl Rove wafts around this like a fog around a poisoned well.
bonkers @ 149
Connect your own dots.
eCAHNomics @ 174
Like those coffins that nobody is allowed to photograph coming into the country? (God, now I sound like a conspiracy theorist. Feel free to smack me upside the head.)
What, did he install Windows Vista on it?
CTuttle @ 184
Well, I am certainly not an expert on these matters, so I’ll bow out & leave it to those who are.
Good evening dear friends. This is horrifying news. I am completely appalled. There are no depths too low for this government.
ccmask @ 177
I could make it on $8500.00 per month. Somehow.
Hi TexB, hard to believe I have any outrage left. But I do.
earlofhuntingdon @ 185
The key is the PR – Rendon Group? Lincoln Group? Who put the fake story out and who told them to.
TRex @ 189
707!
earlofhuntingdon @ 185
Anyone remember the timeline? As I recall the time between the death & W’s testimonial was a matter of weeks. I have always assumed it went up to Rummy PDQ, then the spinmeisters figured out how to use it to their advantage PDQ.
earlofhuntingdon @ 185
Since the early Nineties, all M-16’s can only fire in single or burst(3 rds), full auto was eliminated! Burst mode would not account for the three rounds in Tillman, unless he was on the ground already! The rate of fire is too slow for that tight a grouping if Tillman was erect! The first bullet would have propelled him enough to prevent such a tight grouping!
My lady asks what’s next for the Bush crime family? She’s had enough. And she wants to watch a movie. Adios.
Fern, no, no smacking upside the head – its just that we still look starry-eyed at our own country and avoid looking ugliness in the face. Remember how shocked we were to hear Maryam’s unvarnished words? Well, we gotta keep looking at the meta picture, here. Fascist takeover. What do fascists do when they are taking over? Kill the intellectuals? what else?
TRex, lovely music tonight.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 198
Later kiddo.
Kathryn in MA @ 199
I appreciate your kindness – but it’s not my country. I’m Canadian.
eCAHNomics @ 196
It was almost instantaneous as I remember. Tillman, sports hero, killed in action, enlisted because of 9/11 hero…that is what I remember. Who was told what to write? Who put it out there?
I’d rather have a pre-shuttle libation in front of me than a free shunt and frontal lobotomy.
earlofhuntingdon @ 185
I don’t know what evidence there is that there were any “enemy” in the area. As TRex points out the article says
Kathryn in MA @ 199
Make everyone think the trains are running on time?
Dover Bitch @ 55
After some reflection, I think this part of the story could still be true. I rescind my knee-jerk reaction.
This AP story is quite disturbing, though.
punaise @ 204
That’s a tortured pun, sir.
LS @ 203
It is possible that what got him killed and how the damage control happened have little to do with each other.
That’s my memory too. Made me suspicious right away. Jessica Lynch story had already been exposed as bogus. I didn’t what the skunk in the Tillman woodpile was, but I knew one was there.
I read a few years ago that he was not religious and he also enjoyed discussing some of the various conspiracy theories. He did not turn out to be their poster child.
Rich Tillman at Pats funeral>>>
Thanks Pat. [toasting him with a glass of Guiness beer] I didn’t write shit because I’m not a writer.
I’m not just going to sit here and break down on you. But thanks for coming.
Pat’s a fucking champion and always will be. Just make no mistake, he’d want me to say this: He’s not with God.
He’s fucking dead. He’s not religious. So, thanks for your thoughts, but he’s fucking dead.
landofthefree @ 155
errrr
HOLY CROW!
everypne will remember IF YOU PLEASE, I said that when skooter’s sentence was commuted the cia would LET LOOSE, cuase it was THEM that FORCED the president into investigatin the leak, and it was THEM that made sure the investigation went forward, and it was THEM that made it clear valery was a covert asset
I said’
“I do believe the cia will release some notes we should have had long ago…they are gonna be pissed”
or something similar to that
I predicted “a coupla weeks”
HA
TEH GATES OF HELL BEGING TO OPEN
let’s hope I am right…if so, it might have actually been a service to this country that the president commuted skooters sentence, otherwise this infor might have been much longer in comming
I’m curious to know why they were “hugging the ground” and if this O’Neal hasn’t been … er… done away with as yet; Why is he not the center of the investigation and why is he not considered a suspect?
What was he “sniveling” about? Unless, he’s the perp, why can he not just tell who did kill him (then go into the witness protection program).
Furthermore, if he didn’t kill Tillman, why didn’t “they” kill him too?
I’m glad to see the Tillman’s get more information. I know they lied about a local woman who they said was shot by friendly fire and only upon pressing them from the family and local news did they get information that this young woman committed suicide 3 days after she asked and was relieved of her “interrogation” duties.
Make you really wonder how many others we just don’t know about.
Its so easy for the bushco machine to make up these lies and proceed to add the layers of cover up necessary. The “three to the forehead” sounds like an execution style to me.
LS @ 203
They’d been spinning Tillman since he enlisted and turned down a huge NFL payday. When he died, that threw the whole “ask not what your country can do for you” spin into a loop. They HAD to do something, but the question has always been “what?”.
Peterr @ 60
wangdangdoodle @ 208
a reach, indeed
Who do you suppose killed him and why? Or is that in one of the links I skipped?
perris @ 212
I bow to your prescience.
Sports Illustrated:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c…..index.html
dakine01 @ 173
And it lets everyone know that they are very comfortable with the questions that the MSM asks.
punaise @ 215
I have a bottle in front of me, so I don’t have to reach far.
LoudounLib @ 200
God, isn’t that Vaughan Williams Fantasia just TO DIE FOR?!
It’s my favorite piece of classical music. Bar none.
Well, Dvorak’s Bagatelles are pretty awesome, too.
Punaise, I’m so glad somebody noticed the Vista joke.
Fairly unscientific, but stunning!
ANCHORAGE, Alaska – On Wednesday, July 25, Channel 2 News conducted an online poll asking if viewers would be less likely to vote for Sen. Ted Stevens and Rep. Don Young if their criminal investigations were unresolved at election time.
63 percent of the respondents said they were less likely to vote for the two. Here are the official question and results.
If the criminal investigations involving Sen. Ted Stevens and Rep. Don Young remain unresolved at election time will you be less likely to return them to office?
Yes (less likely) 63 percent
No 28 percent
Undecided 9 percent
Not sure it this has been mentioned but Tillman was trying to meet with NOAM CHOMSKY to try and find a way to end the war. It would of bee a DISATER in election year 2004. THERE IS THE MOTIVE.
Hey Perris.
Good on you. I hope you’re right. There are very few good people left in the CIA after Goss got done with the purge, I would guess.
You think this is all retribution at the hands the CIA? They certainly have good reason to be pissed, after listening to the Cons claiming they didn’t even know the status of their own agent!
TRex @ 221
and I’m not even a Mac guy…
Ed*ard Teller @ 222
ET, You see the news reports that your Jr senator is selling back her land she got in the sweetheart deal?
solai @ 219
Booooorrrriiinnnnggg.
ESPN:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/…..id=1788232
LS @ 218
reading the article (and if a pr firm were employed), it sounds like they put this story together in less than 24 hours…
Ed*ard Teller @ 222
Progress in our time?
TRex @ 221
Oh, I noticed it all right.
But I just got a new computer with Vista on it.
So I’m not laughing.
;)
Jon Stewart up.
The poetic justice in this story is stunning. Even in death, Pat Tillman is shaking shit up, and being a true warrior. Just watch, he’ll bring down the crooks afterall! Beautiful!
The Tillmans are a great example of how bogus the “liberal stereotype” really is. Lush Limpballs must getting dizzy trying to figure out how to spin the Pat Tillman story into his perverted, drug-addled, world view.
now to commemorate Pat Tillman;
what an American hero…he recongized the threat IN AFGHANISTAN and he left his life, his lucrative and exotic career IN SERVICE TO AMERICA
He was murdered for his patriotism
YET HIS SERVICE HAS HELPED PROTECT US even in death…just look at what he’s done…he is going to be one of the spokes of the wheel that brings these despots to the bar of justice.
THIS IS THE REASON PAT WAS CALLED TO SERVE
he was called to serve to protect us, to raise the alarm, to be one of the soldiers that fought to bring an end to the coup in America
Pat speaks to us, he fights for us…he lives forever in the lore that will be told for time untold, for generations
To 222 re. the elections and polls. It is the same 25% that keeps showing up everywhere. Yup, we still like these guys!! Who are those 25% ers that still think that way? Support to the death; not see any of the lies. Bill Kristol. Just a mind set I cannot understand. So glad W and Cheney got elected and re-elected and not doing anything wrong.
Out to the garage for a smoke and The Daily Show. Back soon.
punaise @ 195
No he couldn’t get the drivers installed for Halo 3.
As they use to say when a black man was found dead in pre-civil rights era Alabama with multiple fatal bullet wounds: “Suicide.”
punaise @ 214
A “bottle in front of me” is not an egg’s use.
Jon Stewart ragging on Australia which just passed a law saying film clips couldn’t be used to ridicule or satirize the govt.
dakine01 @ 227
What with Don Young having to pay more for lunch for his attorneys than Diane Benson spent on a campaign which nearly beat him, she may be feeling that she won’t be the only part of our Washington congressional delegation needing every friggin’ penny she can get, and in need of dumping the bad Penney.
Almost mistyped Washington Delegation as Washington deletion Hoping…
new thread up
punaise @ 215
Is punaise a tortured punster?
I got the zed upstairs. Words up.
how can there be no evidence of (gun)fire at the scene of his death, yet a claim that he told a comrade ‘under fire’ to stop sniveling?
Intention to interview WH on Tillman:
http://www.cantonrep.com/index…..ategoryID=
punaise @ 216
Tortured? Yoo got that right!
(talk about reaching…)
bonkers @ 249
Soyuz sayin’ I gots a problem? I Endeavor to rise to the Challenger.
There’s reason enough to investigate both a (probable) initial crime and the coverup.
I think the Tillman family has done a good job being fiercely critical of the coverup & determined to seek the truth without jumping to conclusions. We’d do well to follow their lead.
Wait a minute…forgive me for nitpicking, but am I missing something here?
And then -
**
WTF????????
punaise @ 250
Next time I see you accepting a drink from eCAHN, I’m logging off.
punaise @ 250
Whoa. You just kicked my sputnik. No need to Apollogize.
TexB @ 216
Ward Churchill, sends a message.
“Conscientious objection removes a given piece of cannon fodder from the fray,” Churchill said at an anti-military forum last week in Portland, Ore. “Fragging an officer has a much more impactful effect.”
bonkers @ 254
that’s what Jim and I said
a few threads back there was debate as to whether the military would turn it’s guns on us in the event of the Regime declaring martial law.
many said no way, UCMJ, honorable retired colonels, etc.
does this shed a different light on the subject now?
U.S. Army Rangers fighting “Taliban” in the mountains of Afghanistan, Tillman winds up with three bullet holes in his forehead? Proven untrue.
Same three bullet holes a result of fratricide in a chaotic firefight? I don’t think so.
I’m not jumping to conclusions, but I’m ready to draw a few.
LS @ 248
Oh look who gets to testify!
Gerson pushed the “Mushroom cloud” nuclear weapons of Saddam. He also put the “16 words” about Niger yellowcake into the State of the Union speech, linking him with Libby and Plame. Gerson, unlike Tilman is a Christian. I wonder if he will lie under oath? I think he will, just as he routinely lies in the AwPoo.
RIP Pat…
Um, if his last words were to a “comrade under fire,” doesn’t that undermine the part about there being no evidence that anyone was under fire?
Those seem inherently contradictory.
That said, it’s pretty hard to hit someone with a closely-grouped three round burst unless you really intend to hit them.
Since the early ’90s, M-16s have three settings on the selector switch: safe, single, and burst.
The burst setting snaps out three rounds with a single pull of the trigger, like a machine gun.
It sounds as if Tillman was hit at close range by an M-16 set on burst.
However that happened, a cover-up ensued.
Myrtle June @ 213
I’m confused, too. If there was no fire-fight around, why was O’Neal “hugging the ground” and ” sniveling”?
It’s just so damn hard to keep all the b*ll sh*t straight……..
I agree with the sentiment that this guy was an extraordinary patriot, someone that valued truth and honor above all else. Certainly that’s antithetical to everything that the fascists that are overtaking our government stand for.
We know where Tillman was killed, when, and apparently how….I’d like to know the why and the who.
sporkovat @ 257
No. They’re over there. We’re over here. And we’re a lot bigger than the countries they can’t bring to subservience.
also, why is it that Left Blogostan has 2 selective areas where the mendacious, deceitful Bush Regime is given the benefit of the doubt and presumed to be telling the truth?
(1) The number and nature of US military casualties
(2) the 9/11 Official Story
???
and Gordon @ 265 … they’re over there now, but they are coming back, and coming back desensitized…
Diva @ 263
Unless the ground-hugging and “stop snivelling” actually happened sometime beforehand when there was a firefight? And O’Neill/O’Neal just let the “insult” to his god fester until he got a chance at a little payback? And then had to cover his ass because, uh-oh, he hadn’t considered the consequences until after the guy was dead and there was no evidence of enemy fire.
/tinfoil hat
FunnyDiva
GordonM @ 265
IOW, they can’t kill ALL of us. Just kinda hard on the first few thousand peaceful protestors that get pumped full of lead by the few Nat’l Guards and newly recruited, pre-deployment trainees available to quell the uprising.
That’s not a slam, GM, I actually agree with you.
FunnyDiva
Not laughing about this, I assure you!
dwwenz @ 32
As i told my siblings at our parents’ funeral.
Thou shall outlive thy folks.
done.
Which came first…the murder of Pat Tillman, or the idea that he could be used as a dead hero?
Think about what lengths this cabal has gone to, and anything is plausible. Especially if you factor into it the fact that he thought the Iraq war was bullshit, and who might have feared that he might go public at some points with those thoughts.
Better a dead hero than a future political opponent? Think about it.
punaise @ 256
Whoa. You just kicked my sputnik. No need to Apollogize.
that’s what Jim and I said
Hey, I don’t want to start a shuttlebut, but tell Jim he owes me moon-ey!
Lord, Lord, they cut Pat Tillman down…
for those who remember Dylan’s ‘George Jackson…’
Jay @ 264
didn’t he write Noam Chomsky requesting a meeting?
Pat Tillman had to be killed. His diary had to be destroyed. He was going to speak out against the atrocity that is this war – and he would have had tremendous credibility, just like Joe Wilson. And he had a daily accounting of what was really going on. He had to be destroyed.
So why not put his death to good use? Use him for propaganda, like Jessica Lynch. What’s one death – for the cause? What are 1,000 deaths, 100,000 deaths to these people?
A little hot in here?
We should all be burning up with rage.
eCAHNomics @ 37
Subpoena for Rove, Harriet Meirs, Bolten contempt charges, AG special Prosecutor/Impeach/resign, Tillman murdered. O.K. Scream feel the outrage, Breathe, focus, Scream for Justice, Breathe , feel outrage for Tillman and all of the American soldiers who have had their lives used and abused and all of the dead Iraqi people Breathe, focus.
Let’s do everything in our power to get those fucking rat psychopathic bastards. Breathe Focus
Call Leahy, Schumer, Whitehouse, Feingold, Feinstein (even though she is a war profiteer) and thank them for congressional oversight. Let them know we are behind them!
We want the Bush administration held accountable for their endless crimes
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 273
didn’t he write Noam Chomsky requesting a meeting?
Yes he did according to his family. Unlikely pair huh? NFL star and liberal academic. Tillman was probably fiscally responsible also. Aspirin sales skyrocket as wingnuts everwhere try to make sense of all this.
Dan @ 98
No, somebody has to give him a bl*wj*b.
Kirk @ 136
Recently, the BBC ran a govt announcement that Kelly’s death was determined not to be a suicide. The report had some details, such as coagulation rates, etc.
If there is anything us old vets know, is that the military supports war.. For many high ups, it is a chess game, a chance to ride their toys they have devoted their lives too, it’s parade time, dress blues and ribbons. Don’t think for one minute that someone within the military or military complex wouldn’t take one individual out if they saw a threat, they feel their own views are so important that one human being is not important when playing the the game of geopolitics and war. When they say to stay in Iraq, they are saying that we can afford loose 2 or 3 hundred, or a thousand more young lives for this important geopolitical goal. So one man who held a powerful potential threat….
Even on a different level, you have no idea how many young gun-ho officers out to win their medals during Nam that were fragged by the jungle weary. But bet your stars we didn’t hear about them when they did happen and the did. I was security police in the military 69-71 and the people of the military are like any cross section of a city, you got good, bad, honest men and crooks, you got left and right, you got idiots and damn fine men so trust me, there could be a group of individuals that didn’t want this man running loose. We will just have to see.
Good correction that the M16A2 can only fire single or three-round bursts; it has no full auto mode like the A1. Is that also true for the M4 and other variants Rangers or SF may use? More to the point, how would three rounds to the forehead stay in a close grouping? If the rounds were fired from a distance of thirty feet, the impact must have moved his head quite a bit. It also suggests that he wasn’t wearing his helmet at the time. The physics make no sense; critical data is missing.
Scott Horton did a fine story a few weeks back about Tillman and the symbolic importance to a politician of the “first death” in war. It encapsulates his country, his government and the whole purpose of the war, a symbolism that Karl Rove is sure to have studied carefully. Tillman’s, I believe, was the first death of a nationally known figure.
George Bush’s government is made up of an extraordinarily large number of senior political appointees whose only expertise is “public relations”, aka spin. He’s the first president who brought his chief campaign strategist into the WH and made him a day to day adviser for how to run his govt rather than just run for office.
Pat Tillman, by all accounts, had enormous presence and martial skill; he was a no nonsense, tell it like he sees it guy. He may also have been a Democrat and is on record opposing several things about this war. His diary, apparently burned direct orders, was written while in combat; it’s likely some of his observations were nasty, brutish and short.
What’s a govt run by spinmeisters, who daily spar with the reality-based world to sell everything from toothpaste to the toothless to underarm deodorant for the armless, gonna do when it gets news of Tillman’s death under circumstances that are highly embarrassing, and quite possibly criminal? What’s it gonna do if several of those top spinmeisters have an inkling of Cheney’s questionable evidence for war? Perhaps the same thing it did in concocting the Private Lynch fable.
The Lynch yarn was crass, unfaithful to her service and her uniform. The Tillman death and its cover-up may well have been criminal. As with Abu Ghraib, when several investigations turn up inconsistent results, it’s clear that whatever we know isn’t the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Let the sliming begin…
It’s easy to see where this headed: they’ll say Pat Tillman was a Captain Ahab type whose angry behavior brought about a mutiny. They’ll bring up his lack of religious belief — after all, who would tell a soldier that God won’t help him?
I hope that I’m wrong, but I think that’s the road this goes down. I really, really hope I’m wrong.
Can’t we all just put this unfortunate incident behind us? We have important to work to get done, like getting an immigration bill passed.
Tillman death isn’t behind us or his family. It remains a “current event” because of the depth and seniority of the cover-up and what it was meant to hide. It is today’s event because the same people who OK’d it are still in the WH and some of them are still in the Pentagon.
It remains a hot story today because the cover-up is symbolic of how these same politicians lied in making their case for war, how they have lied in describing their conduct of it and its “progress”, and how they avoid dealing with its catastrophic costs and the inevitability of withdrawal under dire circumstances for us and the Iraqis.
As Scott Horton reminded us, the first death in war defines the war. The case of Pat Tillman seems to prove that once again, in the oppsite way intended by those who covered up his death.
Why what a surprise. The evidence doesn’t bear out the story. Same as 9/11 nothing to see here folks, move along, move along.
So they shot him and burned his journal because they didn’t like what he was writing down in it, evidence of war crimes?
Address Crimes When Crimes Occurs
A law enforcement officer does not stop arresting criminals one hour before their shift is over because they want to leave it for the next shift. Russ Feingold is right the Senate and the Congress must address crimes committed by this administration when they occur.
Those who make the argument it’s futile to proceed with impeachment proceedings because Bush is on the way out give this president license to commit more questionable actions. If I were in Bush’s shoes, I would be licking my chops as I commit every questionable action I could. After all, I would be “on the way out.”
For whatever reasons, this do nothing attitude can lead to a crisis in our ability to deliver justice. Justice is something that should be administers when it happens not when it is expedient to do so. This president must be impeached for very high crimes and misdemeanors.
Joseph
argosfalcon @ 43
What he said!
And by the way, speaking of Pvt Lynch. No matter what anyone wants to say about her, she is a brave and decent young woman. She could have gone along with the whole thing,and made a profit, but she chose to blow the story open on national TV.
That is courage too.
Do you really think the DOD would hesitate to lie and screw over service people if it suited their political interests to do so?
Whoever is still serving this criminal administration in the upper echelons of the DOD has to be an amoral toady almost by definition.
Methinks news of Tillman’s political views reached someone high in the Bush administration, and knowing their penchant for revenge some toady in the Pentagon, trying to curry favor, ordered a hit to avoid the embarrassment of their propaganda golden boy publicly opposing the war.
I wouldn’t put anything past these criminals.
Did Bill O’Loofah have Tillman killed? It’s irresponsible not to speculate.
I’m seeing a lot of comments on the general lines of “3 shots in a close group! How cold-blodded!”
However, modern M-16s are limited to a 3-round burst on full auto. To me, it sounds like a single trigger-pull on a weapon set to “Auto”, not 3 separate firings of the weapon. A little easier to see that as an accident, or an impulsive act by a stressed soldier.
The M16 has a THREE ROUND burst setting:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m16.htm
Says nothing good to me….
Heil BushCo. fsckin’ bastards….
This cover-up, this obstruction of justice goes to the top of the Bush administration.
Donald Rumsfeld was bound to have been involved.
Karl Rove would have been involved.
Dick Cheney would have had his dirty hands in on it.
Scooter Libby? Probably.
David Addington? Probably.
Alberto Gonzales? Probably.
I just bet that if we ever do see the RNC’s emails from that period, messages would be found discussing the Tillman death and how the Bush administration planned on handling it, spinning it, quashing any comprehensive investigation into it.
I don’t believe Richard Nixon, or anyone in his administration, ever pulled such a devilish and despicable stunt.
Bob C @ 291
However, modern M-16s are limited to a 3-round burst on full auto. To me, it sounds like a single trigger-pull on a weapon set to “Auto”, not 3 separate firings of the weapon. A little easier to see that someone deliberately walked up to Tilman and shot him in the head.
My point is your logic can cut many ways.
Joseph
Bob C @ 291
I was about to say that exact same thing. One trigger pull. You can’t assume any more from the 3 bullets than you can from a single.
For some reason, he was shot in the head by an M16. And for some reason, there was a coverup.
But I think we should be careful jumping to conclusions about how or why he was shot by an M16.
gunned down by fellow Rangers
I don’t know where the truth lies in this, but these aren’t your Charlie-Sheen-Smoking-Dope-And-Singing-Motown-Vietnam-Draftees – these are elite soldiers. They don’t pop off a few rounds at the blink of an eye.
this makes one wonder how many others that this has happened to that the public has not heard about.
I don’t know where the truth lies in this, but these aren’t your Charlie-Sheen-Smoking-Dope-And-Singing-Motown-Vietnam-Draftees – these are elite soldiers. They don’t pop off a few rounds at the blink of an eye.
You obviously are not in todays military. These boys are jacked up on amphetamines and god knows what else prescribed to them to keep them “alert”.
Joseph @ 294
Someone above stated that Tillman would have likely had to have been on the ground or held stationary for this to occur without more scatter. If he was upright he would have fallen.
Plus the doctors thought the gunshots occurred at “close range” – this can be established by the exit wounds, which differ between close range and distance shots. As well, getting such a tight series would have been impossible with an M-16 from a distance.
My thoughts are this. Tillman was already wounded, lying face up, unconcious. This was the “execution shot” by the team that was sent to “liquidate him”.
That’s why his clothing was ordered destroyed, because the blood-splatter may have revealed the range that he was shot at. There may have also been bloody handprints (or footprint) if he was immobilized.
An interesting point is if anyone elses uniforms were destroyed, besides Tillman’s. Blood splatter might have still been on them, depending on the range.
Statements need to be taken from the teams~ compelled under oath…and then any discrepancies between the evidence and these be used to impeach the Rangers involved.
TRex @ 12
NO!!!! You twits.
Fragged is a grenade.
Tillman, if I read all of it right, took 3 bullets from a M-16 to his forehead.
I DOUBT, the M-16’s at hand, under the circumstances, woulda been set for one shot parcels.
So, ONE PERSON, with ONE M-16, put a 3 SHOT BURST, into Tillman.
As I’ve read, and extrapolated.
And I’m NOT an arms expert.
ONE guy killed Tillman. It seems.
Why?
That’s the money question.
But TRex, and any of you who posit shit for what it is . . . you’d best get to be MUCH MORE better informed on arms and weaopons, than I am.
Cuz I have NO clue, but I can figger out from reading about weapons, that a M-16 at close range, prolly WASN’T shot by multiple single shot weapons.
It was done by one rifle, on burst.
Any jarheads or grunts wanna refute me?
I’d be delighted. To learn some thing new. Really. Cuz I only know what I read, I’ve never FIRED an M-16.
And I don’t think I HAVE to. For Mr. Tillman’s sake . . . . bless his soul.
Harumph.
Why was he shot by one of his own, from the front!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bastards.
There’s some scumbag milblogger named “Blackfive” who’s already making noises that the same thing should happen to “Scott Thomas” – the soldier who recently wrote an anonymous article about atrocities in Iraq.
If this is “honor,” you can have it.
For those wanting to know more about the war for truth that the Tillman Family is waging, watch theTillman/Lynch Hearing from April, 2007.
Kevin and Mary Tillman are heroes. They have decided to speak truth to power and seek justice for what has been done to Pat and to themselves.
Jessica Lynch is a brave, soft-spoken young woman about whom a ridiculous set of lies was spun. While in the Army, she was not allowed to speak the truth. She’s not in the Army anymore.
The April, 2007 hearing will prepare you for the August 1st hearing coming up next week.
Loo Hoo. @ 49
Me, neither. It just makes me want to pursue this horrific, criminal coverup to the bitter end.
At some point after Viet Nam the M-16 was modified to fire only three-round bursts in full auto mode. This was done because troops had a really nasty habit of going through a 30-round magazine in one burst. Waste of ammo and shortens the life of the barrel. Three bullet holes in close proximity tells me that he was shot with one burst at close range, taking most of the back of his head off. Methinks Pat’s Airborne Ranger buddies didn’t like him all that much.
I wanna live a life of danger
I wanna be an Airborne Ranger.
Guess I’ll be stepping up my counter-recruiting efforts at the local high school. If there are any recruiters on campus when I show up they’re always really happy to see a grizzled ol’ Viet Nam vet there. Not.
Can you imagine if Tillman was going to return and lambast the war.
tjb @ 59
When this happened, I knew it was surrounded by something very dark, and deeply rooted in deception. HOW a solider(?) trained to be an expert shot could mistakenly shoot not once, but three times, in that close of a range, PROVES IT WAS INTENTIONAL. Pat Tillman was an educated man, and a free-thinking philosopher, according to his family. It appears that he was marked as a clear danger to bush’s invasion of Iraq, and the bogus effort to capture and kill bin Laden.
When his funeral was televised on ESPN, I sobbed my heart out. It is not as if it was something I wanted to watch, but I could not turn away out of an overwhelming feeling that I was bearing witness to an unjust, untimely death of a rightous hero. An outstanding human being was sacrificed, by his fellow Rangers, or whomever fired those three shots,to perpetuate a LIE.
Now, I am sick at heart, and sick in my soul, with the weight of a collective grief that such an evil deception visits on us all.
I will not channel this into toxic emotions, there is too much of that now, but will keep Pat Tillman’s spirit alive in each kind thought and deed I may perform in my day to day living. I feel it’s the least I can do for a spirit selfless enough to pass on a multi-million dollar NFL contract, in order to lay down his life.
Try though I may I can never come to see how W looks at the world. It’s just so foreign to me.
You say that like it’s a bad thing. Personally, I’m absolutely delighted to have so little in common with a murderous sociopath like Dubya.
Night vision devices, perimters everything a soldier learns in soldering 101, now unpopular war, cover up.
Can and will the media push for a Murder investigation and Why? the White House assisted in the cover up, remember the Commander in Chief Takes all responsiblity, and boy they jumped on this one both ways.
Murder is a NO Time Line Crime, the White House interferred and jumped on the Band wagon bothways. Can we have a Murder investigation and find out Why the White House Covered this up. The Generals demotion is not enough this is Murder and it was covered up from the White House Down.
This was so obvious from the beginning, at least to me. PT got over there and realized exactly what a crock of shit the entire thing was. So a bunch of flag waving, “Amurika, love it of leave it”, over zealous and scared-shitless, murdering kids put him out of his misery. If they would have just stayed quiet, that would have been bad enough, but our genius of “branding” decides to make a war hero out of him…big mistake.
PT was no dumbass and neither is his brother or family. PT was a patriotic, god-fearing, America loving hero…not a ‘war’ hero, an American hero. I hurt so for his family and ours…the American family. PT would have become the biggest spokesman for change that his beloved US of A would have ever known. Why? Because he was a man of action. But hey, they always kiil the bravest, brightest, most courageous among us. MLK, JFK, RFK…even JC.
Ron Paul…please don’t get on any small aircraft. Ron Paul is truly the ONLY HOPE for America in this corporate, greed invested, moral cesspool of a government.
The truth is out there.
Bob C @ 291
Ok, then why didn’t the DOD officials just say that? Why are they still stone-walling an investigation?
Always lots more questions than answers with this bunch…………..
cinnamonape @ 299
Oh. My. God.
I always wondered why they burned his uniform. Of all the comments here, this one is the coldest, most horrific possibility imaginable!
The murder scenario is not believable. The accounts I’ve read of the firefight have guys firing machine guns (SAWs/M240)at Tillmann’s position after harassing fire from Afghan rebels. These inexperienced soldiers who were firing (first firefight for some) lost their heads, and their brains shut down. Stop with the conspiracy about murder. The real conspiracy and tragedy is the cover-my-ass coverup by officers in the “1-mistake and your career is finished” culture of the Army. This, of course, was in collusion with Bushco.
I guarantee that if I shoot you with a SAW you will have 3 holes closely spaced in your head from one split-second burst.
You also need to understand the loyalty between soldiers on the ground. Read about it in Keegan’s military histories. Guys fight not for patriotism, but to protect each other. When they cock up, it is sad.
landofthefree @ 21
Diva @ 312
The murder scenario is not believable. The accounts I’ve read of the firefight have guys firing machine guns (SAWs/M240)at Tillmann’s position after harassing fire from Afghan rebels. These inexperienced soldiers who were firing (first firefight for some) lost their heads, and their brains shut down. Stop with the conspiracy about murder. The real conspiracy and tragedy is the cover-my-ass coverup by officers in the “1-mistake and your career is finished” culture of the Army. This, of course, was in collusion with Bushco.
I guarantee that if I shoot you with a SAW you will have 3 holes closely spaced in your head from one split-second burst.
You also need to understand the loyalty between soldiers on the ground. Read about it in Keegan’s military histories. Guys fight not for patriotism, but to protect each other. When they cock up, it is sad.
landofthefree @ 21
The coverup was that the military was so f**cked up in the way they handled this mission.
Whatever happened to Pat Tillman…what’s clear at this moment to me is that the military as a whole did a real diservice to one of their own.
Tillman was one of their own – they owed him the truth.
Let this be a lesson to Scott Beauchamp.
Well, the whole story is going to come out in hugely best-selling form. Apparently Jon Krakauer’s next book is about Tillman.
Do they really think this is the end of it? It appears someone covered this up, and it appears that murder is bonkers @ 149
Sounds to me as if the action was already going on when this comment was made. In any case it is unlikely someone would get up from a fetal position to shoot someone in the head 3 times (Why shoot your team when you should be shooting at the people trying to kill you).
I also think the sniveling comment is part of the fake side of the story – big the kool aid drinkers something to work with.
What is distrubing only slightly less than if this was a consiracy theory is that the Republicans seem to have a trickle-down corruption thing going on. As they pave the roads to cash & the beltway for their supporters it seems that if they do not have an active message of breaking the law that there there is a passive thing where their minions are almost encouraged to do what it takes for the team (avoid or start an investigation, add or shave votes, interpret the law in a certain way to support the party, give a job to the Repub….Kill someone).
I’ve said for years that Pat Tillman was murdered, and I can give you a handful of reasons why.
First, he was vehemently opposed to the war in Iraq and called it “so fucking illegal”. He was also anti-Bush and was planning on campaigning for Kerry when he returned from Afghanistan. He was very well read and one of his favorite authors was Noam Chomsky, with whom he was scheduled to meet upon returning from war.
He was also an atheist, which could very easily have rubbed some of the dyed-in-the-wool true believe types in his unit the wrong way. Add to that the fact that he was extremely popular and successful financially, and you could easily see how some dumbass redneck in the Rangers could want him dead. That being said, however, I do not believe the decision to assassinate Pat Tillman was made within his unit.
As we all now know (and as some of us have known for years), everything…EVERYTHING, this White House does is political. Every decision they make is based on a political calculation, and Karl Rove figures very heavily in all of it. I am convinced that the White House political arm was well aware of Pat Tillmans sentiments regarding both Bush and the illegal war in Iraq, and the decision to have him killed and to cover it up and make it look like he was a hero was made before he was even killed.
That’s why there was no evidence of enemy fire on the scene, because there never was any enemy fire. There were no bullet holes in the Humvee because no one was firing on their position. They lured Pat Tillman into an ambush once they had successfully divided the platoon to get his brother and those members of the unit who would not have gone along with the murder away from the scene.
Pat Tillman was extremely well read and intelligent, and if you’ve ever legitimately attempted to debate a Bushie true believer on the facts, you’ll know how absoulutely stupid they are. They realize it soon after you punch holes in their talking points, and I could very easily see Pat Tillman having complete ownership of the morons in his unit based on his ability to defeat them both physically and intellectually, another reason they would want him dead.
When you consider that he was reportedly yelling out that he was a friendly, and you consider that he had lit off a smoke greneade to indicate a friendly position, there is really no way his death could have been accidental. When you realize he may have been shot from as close as 30 feet, there’s even less doubt. When you consider they burned his uniform and body armor and his journal, which he’d kept since he was 16 years old, went missing, too, then I think you can conclude with 100% certainty that he was assassinated.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to delete allusions to violence.~~~
Pat Tillman must have been a world champion creep of all creeps for an entire group of fellow soldiers to participate in shooting him dead.
Squeaky @ 296 says:
gunned down by fellow Rangers
I don’t know where the truth lies in this, but these aren’t your Charlie-Sheen-Smoking-Dope-And-Singing-Motown-Vietnam-Draftees – these are elite soldiers. They don’t pop off a few rounds at the blink of an eye.
**I have a question. Would they be compelled to do something like this if ordered to do so by the CIC? The three shots to the forehead suggest coup de grace.
there is no way this is true a shot group like that would not happen.
Dearest Pat,
I know you live beyond the murder and pain to show us the truth—You are a hero and will always be in our thoughts and prayers
The people who probably killed him were mercenaries that we have over there known as BlackWater..They come from North Carolina and have the best of equipment, don’t have to answer to anyone for what they do, and get paid around 600.00 per day!..Google Blackwater and you can see a vid of them killing innocent people while driving down a highway!!!..
Tillman wrote letters to his family explaining the war and how wrong it was for us to be over there!! He and his brother were going to expose the lies about this war and they made sure he wouldn’t talk by killing him!..My heart and prayers go out to this true American Patriot and to his family…
Hypothesis # 3413423
1. Some were indeed “in on it” – the initial crime (for all the above reasons and more then likely some not mentioned above beyond the global or high crimes BS) but only a very select few within that particular group – maybe his work cronies especially possible if those relationships were not good.
2. The Sibling relationship working in the same Unit very well could have acted as an “enabler” for dysfunctional morale and perhaps overzealous ego based relationships on behalf of them (Tillman’s) or more then likely jealousy on the part of ONE or a select FEW.
3. TRex might be on to something; “a(s he was going to come out ” perhaps there is more unspoken things not on a written report involved.
4. Kathryn in MA might be on to something; “Kevin, in partnership with his brother’s spirit” Haunted spirit that won’t rest! Check your native american lore or the other indians’ for that matter.
5. malcontent might be on to something; “easily see how some dumbass redneck in the Rangers could want him dead”
6. Cover-up from the Top down is beyond a shadow of doubt and only occurred after the info chain started its way up the COC upon learning of the sad news. Murder is also beyond a shadow of doubt if indeed there are three close proximity shots to the forehead.
That’s my 2 cents!
May the lord above grant his mother and family peace during this trying time….
Our gov is lawless. They killed JFK, TIllman, and God knows who else. We must demand answers. Tillman had class and honor so the whole War on Terror thing appears to be a fraud.
It appears Dennis and Ron Paul were correct we had no business in Iraq and it appears we even create our own terror to stay in Iraq.
As a member of the GOP we must impeach Cheney/Bush and we must arrest anyone who ordered his death.
It’s time to take action….
Obaman, Hillary, Fred Thompson, Mitt, Rudy will only keep us in Iraq.
Demand answers. I’m calling my congress member monday morning we all must do the same and demand answers.
The whole story about the “sniveling” comment to a fellow soldier smells of a red herring to me. What better way to cover up a cover up that was never supposed see the light of day… suggest that a fellow soldier went off on Tillman… but who can find the truth in this mess anymore? I hope someone eventually gets to the bottom of this.