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Yesterday Rep. Barbara Lee led a winning fight to get Congress to “prevent permanent military bases in Iraq and bar U.S. control over Iraqi oil resources.”
Representative Lee has been working on this bill since June 2005. On Wednesday, by a vote of 399-24, her legislation finally passed the House. As she explained in her statement on the House floor:
What this legislation does is simple. It does what the Iraq Study Group and other experts have recommended that we do. It makes a clear statement of policy that the U.S. does not intend to maintain an open ended military presence in Iraq and that we won’t exercise control over Iraqi oil, and it backs that policy up with the power of the purse.
snip
… In fact, there are conflicting accounts as to who will decide if we stay in Iraq permanently. When the president was asked that question at a press conference last October, he said, ‘Any decisions on permanency in Iraq will be made by the Iraqi government.’ But when Secretary Gates was asked ‘is our presence left up to the Iraqis or do we make the decision?’ in testimony before the Senate this February, Secretary Gates said, ‘We will make that decision, sir.’
More recently, the administration has further muddied the waters by saying that they envision a United States military presence in Iraq similar to that ‘we have in South Korea,’ where American troops have been stationed for more than 50 years, and won’t be leaving any time soon
snip
“To those who raise objections or want to suggest that this is only a symbolic measure or raise semantic questions about what a ‘permanent base’ is, let me say this:
This is a serious issue, and I think we all recognize how much is at stake. The question is simple: do we support an endless occupation, or do we oppose it?
The strong support Representative Lee’s bill received is a good step – but we clearly need more. With the ongoing construction of mega-bases detailed in The Bases are Loaded and the inclusion of passage of the HydroCarbon bill as a benchmark in the larger Iraq relation legislation, we need to push Congress to now take action based on today’s vote.
I’ll be sending that link to The Bases are Loaded to my Representative with a thank you for voting with Barbara Lee – and asking him to now use that power of the purse!
(Rep. Lee is a fellow Mills College alumni. Go Barbara — jh)
252 Comments
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uno?
Siun in da house!
damn! I liked the last thread!
zucchini?
Siun. Good evening.
HA!
Arca @ 3
Lotsa good threads today…I finally feel like progress is being made.
I hope Rep. Lee isn’t raptured any time soon. She’s doing a great job here.
I like that Barbara Lee!
smart, smart, Smart!
Siun!
Oh I thought you were cheering on Iowa State!!! Go Cyclones!!!
Ba, Ba, Ba, Ba, Barbara Lee!!
It would seem strange that you would build bases,now that we are at the point where we are a hollow force, except the navy which has some difficulty operating in the desert. But the delusional are rarely effected by such things as the truth or facts.
Hey gang!
I love Barbara Lee!
And she and Jane both went to Mills – now that says something, eh?
Curious as to how this garnered such overwhelming bi-partisan support. I am surprised that the neo-cons and the kool-aid drinkers to the right of us would vote for it in such numbers.
399-24 is extremely promising! Now, if 67 Senators will vote along the same lines, Shrub can veto it all he wants!!! Boo-Hoo, poor old Big Oil is getting the shaft!!! ;-)
Does anyone have a link to the vote count?
399-24 is surprisingly good news.
Morris Sheppard @ 15
Elections are coming up…they have to be able to point to something that they did. The public hates the war.
well, call me a party pooper but what is the GOP definition of “permanent”?
janda @ 7
I sure hope so.
do-si-do @ 19
Newt Gingrich’s hemmoroids.
I had a sociology instructor in college who went to Mills College. She was… shall we say somewhat to the ‘radical of left’. This woman had great influence on my politics. I loved that woman.
After seeing a video posted at C&L this morning they are neo- Commeys to me. I never would have thought that Jack Webb would have something I might agree with in such a tangential way.
Eureka Springs @ 17
I read that the ‘out’ is that the U.S. has no permanent bases anywhere, since we need the permission of the host country. That was why so many Rs were able to vote for it. In that light, why should we reagard this as meaningful. In an earlier thread, someone responded to my comment by stating that getting it to be official was important, but that seems kind of like lipservice to me.
Arca @ 3
don’t blink you’ll miss ‘em today
do-si-do @ 19
Someone said earlier, as long as the US is “invited” to stay.
argosfalcon @ 13
Operation Iraqi Wetness-The US today announced plans to airlift 70 trillion acre-feet of saltwater into the Iraq-Afghanistan theater of operations in order to enable the US Fleet to operate more efficiently in the region, thereby overcoming the major mission impediments encountered thus far. OIW will, when fully implemented, allow US Navy uinits to operate much further inshore than previously, relieving over stressed Army and Marine Units.
Iraq is but another garrison for the imperial United States and the military war machine. I have said this before, but it bears repeating: As long as there is a large, robust standing military, there will be war. Bushies and their progeny would rather see our brave soldiers die and wounded than see them collect paychecks/benefits and conduct drills everyday. It is a business, and with the overall capabilities of the Air Force, Navy Battleships, Special Forces, and the CIA and the like, there is absolutely no need for bases unless those in power view our place in history at the moment as an imperial power.
do-si-do @ 19
Ah, the devil is in the details! What is so shocking is the barring of US control over their Oil! However, I’ll reiterate, the devil…
eCAHNomics @ 24
It might be, but it might also make it a lot harder for the neo-cons to do what they want. While there might be an out, the average person would still probably see it as a lie if we stay in Iraq for a long time, and gtiven current public opinion, I am hopeful that it will help.
argosfalcon @ 13
The American Military has a dozen aircraft carriers, each more capable than all the foreign aircraft carriers on the entire planet. Additionally, we have ten or eleven active amphibious ships which are actually also aircraft carriers. Each of them is as capable as any other nation’s most powerful aircraft carrier. Additionally, we possess four amphibious groups which are more powerful than the rest of the planet’s amphibious forces combined. Then you get to the air force. More USAF and Navy aircraft refuel in the air in one day than in the rest of the world’s combined military forces in a full year (I found that one hard to believe when I first read it!).
Why our politicians and military planners feel we need these mega-bases in Iraq and elsewhere in the world in addition to the naval and USMC strategic forces (don’t forget all the nuclear submarines we have), is beyond me. Unless you consider the oil. And raw, redundant power to intimidate.
What Rep. Barbara Lee did was courageous. It was also the right thing to do. It will be vetoed and the veto will not be overridden.
nonplussed @ 27
Now thats a fine use of our tax dollars, then KBR will build the inland sea side villas need for our diplomatic staff.
EPU’d and relevant here:
Richmond @ 174
This is why fighting against the permanent bases is so important – and will be so difficult.
Ed*ard Teller @ 31
BINGO.
If the U.S. is in Iraq for a long time, politicians will have much more difficult problems than whether they voted to make the bases not permanent. That’ll be the least of their worries. So what was the point?
Maybe the plan is to outsource the bases.
Anyone else get the feeling that the Saudis and Kuwaitis have been slant-drilling into Iraqi fields in the midst of the chaos? And that maybe that was the point all along? (Oh yeah… and promoting democracy…)
Richmond @ 33
Nice breakdown, I only disagree with the emphasis on Israel. I think 10 and 10 evenly to Oil and Halliburton, leaving Israel at around 10% The WASPS like their Jewish neo-con brethren, but not that much.
AM @ 36
Yeah! Democracy by Halliburton!
scarlet p. @ 37
The friends of this regime make more money when oil is not pumped. Supply and demand determine price, and when price goes up, so do oil company profits. See, Greg Palast, Armed Madhouse.
Bustednuckles @ 21
Ugh! I sure left myself wide open on that one. I mean, Oh god! not wide open that way, i mean….
at least you didn’t mention a condition that is problematic after four hours (or four years).
I better call my doctor and ask about this!
Now I feel bad for raining on the parade. I guess I think this vote is good as a symbolic gesture, and politically it will be great for Ds if W vetoes it. My peeve stems from the fact that our only victories have been symbolic ones, and after 6plus years of disaster, I hunger for more. Rep Lee is doing yeoman’s work and I applaud her and thank her.
wasn’t slant drilling the reason iraq invaded kuwait? and i still maintain that alongside oil – water is also the reason iraq is strategic in the region
OK-Kiddo, Are you here? I wondered what you thought about the definition of Jewish religious extremist I offered below?
Ed*ard Teller @ 31
Well I can’t really speak of navy matters but the Air Force, that I have a bit more information, and mission and flight readiness is dropping daily. There is just so much you can expect from 30 year old aircraft, wingbox problems in the newest c-130’s. When was the last 707/kc 135 built, using f-16’s for close air support ( which has killed at lest one pilot), v-52’s as old as I am and expected to last another 20 years. The Air Force has said its a hollow force.
scarlet p. @ 37
One little discrepancy, the Kurdish Oil fields around Kirkuk are geographically impossible for the Saudis or Kuwaitis to access, and their some of the largest Iraqi Oil reserves!
eCAHNomics @ 42
ditto.
Here is the Vote tally. All 24 nays were goopers.
BigMitch @ 40
Mitch! You son of a B**** (meant for rhyming purposes only). I thought you left!
It gives me hope on the slew of books/newspaper coverage (Gellman’s Angler series) coming out about the Bushies and their political power grab. Even if nothing happens by 2009, at least it has been well-documented.
should be B-52’s the plane not the rock group.
juslin @ 43
Have you been reading Juan Cole about Iraq’s agriculture? The rivers have been damned upstream and the land in the farm area is rapidly salinating (is that a word?), reducing agricultural yields. Apparently in Egypt they must manage the Nile very carefully to prevent this from happening, and of course, no such management is going on in Iraq.
In other words, someone may have thought there was water in Iraq, but there seems to be less than meets the eye.
scarlet p. @ 37
As a former driller even Eastman-Whipstock
took 6 months to directional drill 800 yards away to kill a blowout. Oilfield guy, where are you when I need you? NOT
Mitch! You son of a B****
How the hell did you know my mother was named Beatrice, and always known as Bea?
OT- but significant news about Pat Tillman, from the AP
Link
“The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.
The doctors — whose names were blacked out — said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.
• No evidence at all of enemy fire was found at the scene — no one was hit by enemy fire, nor was any government equipment struck.
Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman’s comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman’s death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.
Woo Hoo!
beer O’clock on the left coast.
Cya!
This bill was long overdue…and BRAVO to Lee.
Now a quickie throwback to the previous rapturous thread… Do NOT use the word “homeland”. It is NOT a home of the free word, but a Nazi word. This is NOT 1933 Germany (as much as most GOPers wish it were). We do not have a motherland, homeland, fatherland. Quit with that shit.
The DHS needs to be changed to Dept of Domestic Security or Dept of Domestic Defense. That homeland shit has GOT to go. Pronto.
OT One more thought on the Rapture nuts. I think they are largely a hold-over of the 2000 millenium fears. In 1900, 1500 and 1000 (and 000 years in between) there were similar nutty sects who assumed the world would end soon and prepared accordingly by sitting on roof tops, high fences etc. By 2015 they should be pretty much gone (or in hiding preparing for 2100).
Eureka Springs @ 48
Darrell Issa voted yea. I’ll be damned…
SeamusD @ 54
And today, as a result of this incident a three star general became a two star general.
Praedor Atrebates @ 56
Excellent point. That is part of the cultural change that needs to take place once the Bushies are history
To my knowledge, the fields around Basra are much bigger than those around Kirkuk, and the former can be slant drilled. Palast (glad to see you’re an adherent, BigMitch) asserts that there are untapped fields in Iraqi Sunnistan that put the other two to shame.
eCAHNomics @ 61
Slant drilling is impossible from that distance. I worked with Halliburten on the largest blowout in Libyan oil fields of Occidental field 103. The deepest wells on earth go 31000 feet down. The hypotenuse of the right triangle explains the impossibilty of drilling at great distance
Snarlin’ Arlen on AF1 with the Pretzlenit today! So said David Schuster.
Wonder what they talked about?
Wonder what Snarlin’ will do.
Not.
Schuster says Clement works for Bush. If he refuses to appoint a special prosecutor, impeachment is the only remedy.
“No, Mr. Cheney, go fuck YOURself.” (paraphrased)
Lee is awesome.
Wow. The Gonzo thing could just go poof with a special counsel, and we’ll never know what happened – unless they impeach Gonzo.
Impeach!
ecahn@51
those 2 rivers have been a source for ages – if they’ve been dammed thats terrible but i maintain thats 1 of the reasons the us is determined to build this fort – control must be kept in our hands so we can say who gets water and electricity – ohhh its madness we’re making that will last for god knows how long…..
Rove – Lord of the Lies – KO
That is to me an astonishing vote. I am pretty damned sure that the Bush government has envisoned a permanent from the outset and that any future government will face pressure against total withdrawal. This motion is an important step. Given the size of the vote, I almost wonder if the oherwise sorry Senate might even pass this measure too (or is that too much to hope for).
juslin @ 67
I think the dams are in Turkey. Off to google.
Loo Hoo. @ 64
I like that the Judiciary committee is going down the chain, though. The Bushies permeate Justice, but guys like Comey and the like still came forward. These guys are real republicans, and know once the music stops, there are only going to be chairs for the Bushies. Just keep going down the chain…
When did Richard Wolffe grow a pair?
He just used the “I” word…
With respect, I think the complaints that Congress is not doing enough, not moving fast enough, that these steps (subpoenas, contempt, etc.) are just too small to matter and therefore all is lost, simply miss the strategy.
It’s true, the individual steps -are- small, but try to remember: They’re not the point. The point is the administration’s subsequent failure to comply at each step. It’s these failures that will be collected together to form the bulk of the Articles of Impeachment. The greater the number of proper and legal steps that are stonewalled by a given actor (Gonzales, Cheney, Bush — and in that order, please!), the stronger that actor’s Articles become. And the more steps each actor has to face, the greater the chances they’ll screw up — case in point: Gonzo yesterday.
They didn’t get Nixon on his worst crimes, they got him on the cover-up. They got him on the cover-up. This is all about amassing an incontrovertible mountain of rock-solid evidence of cover-up.
Hmmm.
OhSnap! @ 72
It’s just a passing fad. Don’t worry, they will disappear in no time.
I think the administration and war machine views this as an exercise by congress that will make the Republicans look good but in the end the airbases not only stay but are expanded and proliferated. In addition we will use our aircraft carriers to ensure we are covered on many fronts.
Why am I suspicious? It was just a little to agreeable. Election. Election. Election.
SeamusD @ 54
Don’t let this story die. Something is seriously rotten here. A 3-star general was served up as sacrifice yesterday or the day before. There’s more rot to be uncovered.
Hmmm. @ 73
Yep.
I can only imagine the blow back, when thirsty angry people react to that monument to foolishness and arrogance, winning hearts and minds one body at a time.
Just got here but KO next segment on e-mails showing Army lawyers bragging about “successful” cover up of Pat Tillman death and stopping a criminal investigation.
Dams:
-The Tigris is heavily dammed in Iraq and Turkey, to provide water for irrigating the arid and semi-desert regions bordering the river valley.
-Euphrates: Its annual inundation, caused by snowmelt in the mountains of northeastern Turkey, has been partly checked by new dams and reservoirs in the upper reaches.
Both from wiki.
Hmmm. @ 73
That is not lost on anyone that I have read in here. Of course, Congress has to accumulate evidence: if you are going after the head honcho, you better put him down permantely. That is one thing this Congress learned from Newt and Scarborough’s mistake: Clinton survived, and thrived, when he was impeached. The Senate has been on the ball. And Waxman has been, too. It’s Conyers that is disorganized and ineffectual.
The fertile crescent is no longer fertile?
dakine01 @ 79
Yeah, those’ll go over big for football fans. What is so difficult to understand about “Don’t put it in an email”?
juslin @ 43
In the long run water is going to be more important than oil – and not just in the middle east. That and arable land – which is being destroyed by “modern” farming methods.
BigMitch @ 82
Eggsactly.
Think there’sanother river. Off to google/wiki again.
I know I am speaking to the wrong crowd because we’re all on this same boat…but what happened to America? I mean, in six-plus short years we have been tanked. Granted, it has been going on longer… But even during Reagan times, Congress just didn’t let this shizz fly!
And now, even the Democrats, are complicit in what is going on. Yes, they did not have power in Congress until a few months ago – but they kept their mouth shut and bowed to the Repug line that they were unpatriotic, etc.
Where is honor? Dignity? Morality?
It’s starting to sound like Ravel’s Bolero playing itself out in Congress.
Not a very sophisticated melody that starts kind of slow and quiet. Each repeated verse adds new instruments to it. The pace doesn’t pick up noticeably nor does the volume until you really notice how loud it is getting and then it becomes overwhelming.
eCAHNomics @ 85
Aborted, if you will. These Christain “right” repubs: have they no shame!
If the Republicans win in 2008, these bases will become permanent.
OhSnap! @ 86
9/11.
OhSnap! @ 86
You’re speaking to me.
Wesley Clark on KO, the Edelman letter was probably approved, so that is why he still has a job.
If I were secretary Gates, I would be working with the Congress. I don’t understand why Clinton wasn’t invited over to breakfast to discuss the drawdown. Who won? The WH.
Jonathan @ 76
What other personal items besides Tillman’s diary has not been released?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 89
And they may well become permanent if they don’t win. It depends who among the Dem Cans is elected.
ecahn@80
duly noted but i still maintain my thesis….
QuakerGirl @ 93
How about the truth?
Clark on Tillman. This case is wide open. Clearly problems. The truth is not yet out. If there was a murder, it still needs to be investigated. Where was the idea blessed? It did not stop at the two or three star general level.
The responsible thing is to re-open the investigation and find out why we still don’t know. He had a clearly recognize his sillouette and he was likely recognized.
Get Tough @ 90
Not to quote myself, but Gellman in his piece wrote that on the AFTERNOON of September 11, 2001, Addington already had a memo drafted on how the Bushies were to accumulate power in the executive, drawing off of the famous AEI report on how there needs to be a new Pearl Harbor to achieve the “conservative” watershed they needed to strengthen their cause. 9/11 provided them the impetus, scared the crap out of everyone, and brought the dems in line, among other things.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
T I L L M A N
BigMitch @ 99
Agreed. The main tenant of the Constitution and the Dec. of Independance is checks and balances, and oversight. Recent events and power grabs underscores that basic tenant.
OMG, It sounds as if Tillman was murderedBigMitch @ 99
They covered up a murder. The bastards..
the big base is permanent….i dont think the dems should they win the WH will stop that…and that’ll be another sore spot in the ME
QuakerGirl @ 94
Quite true.
…drawing off of the famous AEI report on how there needs to be a new Pearl Harbor to achieve the “conservative” watershed they needed to strengthen their cause….
Nit-picking:
PNAC 2000 Report, not AEI.
The tragic thing is how many other Pat Tillman’s are out there? We’ve heard the rumblings of apparent suicides by soldiers that don’t add up. The rumored rape frequency of our soldiers by US soldiers. We know the bar has significantly been lowered for who has been allowed to sign up in the military. We know our soldiers have done horrible, despicable things to Iraqis/insurgents.
As Milos Foreman said last night on Charlie Rose (paraphrasing) – “I am amazed at how history repeats itself…word for word, action for action…in great detail”
jayt @ 104
No worries. Thanks.
this bushco crowd will sink to any level – tillman is another big reason to push these fuckers out of power
Jonathan @ 96
It is a way of life for this administration. They consider lying honorable. They will NEVER speak truthfully. They attract like kind to themselves so we can expect nothing more from any of their associates and cronies. Level of being attracts level of life.
If they are complicit in the murder of Tillman, we all should be really scared. Really. Fucking. Scared. Like 1938 in Germany scared.
QuakerGirl @ 108
The Platonic Noble Lie emphasized by Strauss and his brethren: the neo-cons–Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol.
OhSnap! @ 105
Think of what we know. Maybe 1.0 percent?
BigMitch @ 109
If they are complicit in the murder of Tillman, we all should be really scared. Really. Fucking. Scared. Like 1938 in Germany scared.
Ergo, executive privilege asserted in the TILLMAN case.
Gave up on Iraq river research. Maps are too hard to read. There are several that come down from the mountains in the north & east, but easily available source don’t talk about them.
Here’s more on the salinity problem
LS @ 26
Maliki has already “invited” us to leave, so why are we still there?
Bob in HI
my Rep.! go, Barbara Lee…
JPL @ 101
Yes, we’ve thought so for some time – probably because he was going public about the Iraqi war.
BigMitch – of course they are complicit… They knew almost immediately that this was “friendly fire” and not the heroic tale they were spinning.
The fact that there were emails (!!!!!) bragging about keeping this under wraps… You’d think we’re watching some bad movie.
Actually, the entire Bush presidency has been a really bad movie with plot twists and turns that are seemingly unimaginable.
We’re screwed. As a nation. Totally screwed. Maybe the Dem President will rustle up the troops to have laws made by Congress regarding this type of overreaching power. Maybe not.
It’s not like we really get the ol’ civil liberties and such back once they are taken away.
RevDeb @ 87
Soon to be followed by the Bushista Junta’s Requiem, I hope. I’ll write it and forego my usual commission.
BigMitch @ 109
My brother, ex-wife and I believe Bush WILL not give up power. There is a national emergency waiting to happen.
Bob Schacht @ 114
we promised to leave if they asked us to.
do-si-do @ 19
something that lasts until the Rapture.
OhSnap! @ 117
The new revelation is that it might not be friendly fire. Three close bullets in the forehead from about 30 ft.
OhSnap! @ 117
And somewhere on the campaing trail, Hillary Clinton is smiling.
Get Tough @ 110
Strauss has a cult following and he attracts people who have the same inner prejudices and hatefulness to himself. Thus they are all comfortable as NeoCons. They have no curiosity beyond their own beliefs. That make you, me and the other good people on this site a deadly enemy as well as anyone who disagrees not in silence. It is called blind following.
Thanks Siun for this info. I will call my congressperson tomorrow. When I linked something about this bill earlier someone said it was not worth much, because our bases elsewhere that have been o.k.’ed by the officials in that country are not considered permanent. Can you address this?
It does not seem that Congresswoman Lee would spend her time on empty legislation.
Tillman’s triple tap to the forehead at close range isn’t “new” news. Hasn’t this been out there for about three weeks?
i don’t think we’re that screwed (ignoring for the mo the monumental shame we will be carrying for awhile) – a friend and i were talking about the possibility that elections would be canceled – i would imagine the governors of each state (more dems!) would ultimately decide if they would go forward and then the republican states would demand elections so as not to be left out.
Kathryn in MA @ 116
This is beyond sicko.
The Tillman documents were protected under executive privilege. Any guesses on how AP obtained them..
the scales are slowly falling from some americans eyes…. moi? i knew this bunch was corrupt from the time cheeny appointed himself “VP”
Ed*ard Teller @ 126
I haven’t heard that before. Link?
Jonathan @ 119
Many of us believe this and see the signs. BigMitch, don’t be scared. Turn these feelings into activism. We’re right here with you.
I hadn’t read it, ET. Good to see you, btw. How’s mom?
This is the link to the AP article in the Washington Post.. http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02025.html
Kathleen @ 128
The Bushies are facists. Classic Nietsche. The Will to Power.
Get Tough @ 123
Why is she smiling? I don’t know. If I were her, I wouldn’t want the presidency after George Bush. On the other hand, I might want all the power he has asserted with the consent of congress (esp. the House).
Jonathan @ 136
DING
Kathleen @ 128
If this happen once how many other times has this happened to just plain joes.
On Tillman. This happened a fair amount in Vietnam too. Troops don’t want gung-ho COs who are going to push them to get their heads blown off. It’s condemnable, but it happens.
QuakerGirl @ 124
The Noble Lie concept has killed a lot of people..not very noble. Twisted language and concepts
Leo Strauss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss
Here’s my Tillman question –
Did those who perpetrated / were ordered to kill him KNOW that nothing would come of it?
Richmond @ 139
Except Tillman wasn’t an ate-up gung ho type who were the norm for getting fr*gg’d in ‘Nam. He was a fellow enlisted who was seriously disillusioned about the invasion and occupation he was caught in.
JPL @ 134
I’m actually shocked.
I thought that was wild talk that he was maybe fragged.
JPL @ 122
More like an execution
Bush, Cheney and Rove have screwed the pooch so hard that they are now beset from within.
Dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands of faceless bureaucrats are now opening the books and spilling the beans.
These nitwits are even inept fascists.
-GSD
Ed*ard Teller @ 118
Nifty. Can I be in the chorus?
FunnyDiva.
PS, couldn’t it be a Requiem for the /victims/ of the Bushista Junta? I really don’t feel like imploring God to spare any of the Juta from The Pit of Hell, or to shine Perpetual Light on them, or Grant Them Peace. Just sayin’.
JPL @ 122
Have you (or anyone else) a link to this? I’m taken aback by this revelation. It actually makes me a little woozy.
I’m with Mitch. We had better be scared! It is already a fait accompli I fear, they have taken our Government from us. That is why AGAG is so cocksure, he has nothing to worry about from anybody. The Administration has been telling all would be challengers to go piss up a rope for some time now. “Executive Privilege”, “Ongoing Investigation”, “Recusal”, “Improper Interference”, Whatever…
Loo Hoo. @ 133
Mom’s GREAT! Just turned 89. Finishing two quilts, while listening to Thom Hartman this morning. An auto repair place just over the hill apparently has non-password wifi, so I get no vacation from the lake. I might have Millie – my mom – blogging before this trip is over.
I’m looking for the earlier link on Tillamn getting multiple shots to the forehead. I’m pretty sure I got it here, but I bookmarked it on my old laptop, which is 1,500 miles away in Alaska.
All of a sudden, a lot is being revealed. There must have been at least five major news stories today that are deeply embarrassing to the Bush administration.
GSD @ 145
Let’s hope so.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02025.html
I’m trying to link to the Tillman article again..
Tithonia @ 150
This is what some at FDL were hoping for a few months ago. I think one discussion concerning the Democrats new majority was the fact that each of these stories of corruption and lying were simply dripping from a faucet. Someone, or many people suggested that if all these stories came out in one week, it would jar people awake.
I think the Democratic Party may have realized that small drips over a long period of time are not as effective as turning the faucet onto max for just a few seconds. It sure looks that way now, and I’m imagining that Bush, Rove, and Gonzales are a little weak in the legs tonight..
OT if you are looking for a disraction on a national level (shiny object) how about this.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/…..index.html
might not be not be as sexy as a cat fight between linsey and Paris on the way back to jail, but still another what if.
Tell her to jump on in, the water’s fine. We’d love to have her.
QuakerGirl @ 132
A parable.
A man sat in the synagogue and wanted to partake in the discussions of the learned men. Unfortunately, he was not intellectually equipped.
He complained to the Rabbi, and the Rabbi explained it this way:
You were in the military and so you know. There is a place for the calvary, a place for the infantry, and a place for the artillary. So it is here. There is a place for study, a place for prayer, and a place for deeds of lovingkindness.
There will be a place for Quakers and other pacifists. But there will needs be other branchs of service, if this regime refuses to relinquish power. The fact that we talk about it, rather than dismissing it as crazy talk is very telling.
Funnydiva2002 @ 146
I’ve already written three such. Two are on-line at my url above. I’ll probably have to be performing this one again soon, to honor the 4,000th American service person killed in this war crime set.
Water in Iraq – remember Saddam screwed with drainage to force the swamp Shia out (they revolted). Damage is possibly permanent (certainly take decades to restore the swamps).
argosfalcon @ 138
Falcon – i had a BIG list on the harddrive i dropped – of mysterious deaths which were very convenient for the bushies – does anyone else have that?
Countdown KO: Coultergiest
OhSnap! @ 141
Excellent Q. Hard to imagine they would think there’d be no stink, unless they were told in advance.
cancer_cures @ 153
And I don’t think it is presumptous to believe that democratic, and for that matter non-Bushie republicans, staffers take a gander at blogs like FDL, and probably especially thanks to FDL because of its high-end front-page bloggers.
Tillman’s family was on to something from the very beginning. They didn’t accept the pentagon story from the get-go. Does anyone know what triggered them that something else going on?
Ed*ard Teller @ 149
Hey, ET, that’s great about the wifi. I, mean, I’d love for you to have a great vacay and all, but, gosh, not if you have to leave the Lake!
Actually, I think it would be fun to meet your Mom here at The Lake! Tell her hello from FunnyDiva.
Where are you, btw, that’s 1500mi from Alaska? Any chance you’re on the Left Coast?
FunnyDiva
QuakerGirl @ 163
Probably the medical report.
GordonM @ 158
I remember it well. Those dams have been deconstructed & marshes reestablished, but I don’t know how they compare to their former selves. But the material on salinity does explain why these are salt marshes! I had previously thought salt water had come upriver from the Gulf.
Jonathan @ 119
My ex-wife thinks I’m nuts for thinking the way I do about this administration and the entire Bush family.
I guess she wasn’t listening to me scream at the TV during the Iran-Contra hearings while North disgraced the Marine Corps uniform day in and day out.
Guess she was blinded by….she doesn’t know what any more.
I’m with you, something not quite nice is coming down the pike.
QuakerGirl @ 163
How about you distrust authority?
I don’t know nonplussed. I’m getting a different feeling. Scared, that was 2000, and again in 2004 when the office of Presidency was stolen, rigged elections and nobody noticed.
Now, lo and fucking behold, people are paying attention.
And I’m starting to feel some good energy around. A growing anger and purpose and determination. I like it, and I’m stoking it.
QuakerGirl @ 163
I don’t know but I remember that they were suspicious. I’d love to know why.
LS @ 66
It’s probably important to be able to say that all other options were exhausted, and impeachment was the last resort and was forced by White House intransigence. Ya Da Ya Da
Ecahnomics I believe you said earlier that an agreement about no permanent military bases was not worth much, because we have military bases that are o.ked by those in control in different countries who have given permission for our military bases. And that this falls under some other definition. Can you explain?
Apparently, the earlier article or articles about the autopsy weren’t at WRH. But here’s a link to their Tillman archives.
Kathryn in MA @ 159
To lots of Iraqi’s. Soldiers are starting to talk.
BigMitch @ 156
JPL @ 134
Nine officers disciplined, one general demoted, and executive privilege once again, is used to cover up crimes.
On what grounds can the White House claim executive privilege on the Tillman case?
JPL @ 165
Did that have the 3 bullet holes in the forehead? Or was it a fictional version that didn’t quite sem right?
FunnyDiva,
I’m in Burien, WA, between Sea-Tac airport and Puget Sound. What’s your voice range?
Addington and Fielding need to be subpoened regarding the advice they have given to Miers, etc., and their part in the obstruction of congressional oversight needs to be exposed. They must be required to appear because they are paid by us, and we have a right to know. Fielding should not be allowed to advise anyone regarding the USA’s, because his name is on at least one email and he is a part of it.
Kathleen @ 172
So that therefore the country could withdraw their permission (yeah right) and the base would have to be removed, and thus the base could not be known in advance to be permanent, even if that was the intention. It’s kind of the anything could happen theory. Or something.
nonplussed @ 148
Not to pick on you, but NO NO NO. The time where this was possible was in 2004 or 2005. The only people left are the die hard loyalist crazies. Yes, they can cause damage, but they can’t take over the country! Who would run it? There are tons of vacancies at DoJ and DHS (and probably everywhere). And who would take it over? Sorry, they’re all in Iraq.
They know they’re done. They’re just trying to ride out the clock and get out of office without impeachment. There’s 193 (out of 210 or so) countries that these people can never, ever visit, because they may be arrested and tried for violating the Geneva Conventions.
The time to be worried was 3 years ago. Your best weapon at this point is your belt – pull down your pants and MOON the assholes! Humiliate! Lampoon! LAUGH at them. LAUGH LONG AND HARD.
Bullies really, really hate that.
GordonM @ 158
I’ve been writing about this area recently (novel) without an academic background in the subject, but I have wondered how much of the “swamp Arab” population there can be traced genetically back to Sumer (and how would you know?!). But if so, those people are the ones who jumpstarted our branch of civilization at least 7,500 years ago. Rather than being reviled and harassed and worse, they and their little region ought to be a global shrine.
1. Tillman revelations.
2. Mueller confirms Comey’s account of hospital episode.
3. Schumer calls for a special prosecutor.
4. Medical worker claims Filipino workers at new US embassy in Baghdad were told they were going to Dubai, then abused after they got to Baghdad.
5. NASA flight computer intentionally sabotaged by subcontractor employee.
6. Karl Rove subpoenaed.
Anything else? Anyone? Anyone?
Richmond @ 139
This happened to assholes in Vietnam, believe me, but it wasn’t an everyday occurence, sorry. Assholes who sent their men out on missions that were suicide missions without questioning the orders from higher ups.
Tillman was a Specialist, basically an E-4 or E-5. I’m pretty sure he cared about his people and guys who go into Rangers or other specialized units don’t go around fraggin their squad leaders OR their COs. Why? Because usually the people in command of them (and I know there are exceptions) care about the well-being of their men.
BigMitch @ 109
Really scared because the majority of Americans are like the Germans during WWII who knew from a distance that unbelievably horrendous things were happenning and were complacent. Just the way most Americans are about the brutality taking place for the Iraqi people. We do not like to see ourselves in this light but it is a reality
How can we wonder why people around the world fear us so much?
JPL @ 177
On they grounds that they’re the dictator.
JPL @ 177
ON the grounds that any conversation anyone has had within 50 yards of the president is privileged. and any document he has touched. Etc.
Ed*ard Teller @ 179
In miles or octaves?
BTW Diva, I wrote that to QuakerGirl.
Ed*ard Teller @ 149
My info is from tonight’s Count Down. Two head shots so close together that they might have been from ten feet away. Later, “surely less than 100 yards.” The word “fragging” was mentioned. KO asked Wesley Clark, who was very formal and proper about the matter but visibly concerned.
KO mentioned telegrams between attorney’s congratulating each other that they had prevented the matter from turning into “a criminal investigation.”
Ed*ard Teller @ 157
Should-a known to check your website! Duh.
Still have a hard time with the concept of a “requiem” for the Bushite Junta, though. On the other hand, maybe it would make me a better person if I could ask God to forgive them and take them unto Himself. On the other, other hand, I can’t imagine being able to do so with any sincerity whatsoever.
FunnyDiva
Hope you write good and interesting 2nd Soprano parts!
Kathleen @ 185
Amen.
I’m just guessing that the parents of Pat Tillman were shown something that did not seem right. Another football player Jake Plummer, a friend of Pat’s was also quite vocal in his concerns. The idea that the Pentagon covered this up is so appalling and now the president will not release further documents is beyond disgusting. I fear for America.
Tithonia @ 184
Busy day, huh?
In the 90’s I use to surf the fringe webs sites, are marveled at the ideas, now events have caught up with their most fevered ideas. Those sites now pale to the news everyday, its truth is stranger than fiction, I just never knew how strange it could be.
eCAHNomics @ 166
Damn – the Lake is on fire tonight – can’t keep up!
No – salts are in the soil. There’s a valley bordering California and Mexico (Imperial Valley). Tons of irrigation water from N CA is used to grow crops in CA. Mexico gets this horrid toxic saline sludge.
I am going out to play racquetball now, and have pity on the ball, because I am really PISSED OFF.
When the Tillmans testified I could barely contain myself. So honorable, so outstanding. That young man was so well spoken and expressed his intellect and his emotions having to do with his brothers death (now murder) so articulately.
After the Tillmans take out those responsible for hiding the truth about Pat, I hope Kevin runs for an office.
Kathleen, the other deaths were of investigative journalists, scientists, etc.
Fern @ 181
That’s my understanding. That in theory host country permission could be withdrawn at any time, ha, ha, ha.
My army major efriend has proven to be a quite unreliable source. He kept telling me that the army hated the war & would get out ASAP. I kept pressing him on the bases, because there was enuf public info to tell that they were indeed permanent. I asked, if they weren’t permanent, were we going to deconstruct them when we left or hand them over to the Iraqis. I had to reask 3-4 times over the course of a year. He finally said we’d hand them over. You can see why I don’t respect his opinion any more.
INHO, there’s NFW we’ll do either. They’re there forever, despite Rep. Lee’s wonderful bill.
GordonM @ 158
the ever-cheerful saddam also blocked the kurds springs with concrete
Get Tough @ 38
You left out a very important item – Hussein’s shift from USD to EUR for Iraq oil. The timing clearly shows that this item is near the top of the list. OTH the percent distribution will vary based on whether you ask Rice, Cheney, Bush, or Drew Carey.
GordonM @ 195
The land is becoming saline too, isn’t it? Because of the irrigation?
Funnydiva2002 @ 175
WTF? Looks like my comment got eaten!
Minor quibble, Big Mitch.
Cavalry=the military branch that used to ride around on horseback (Cheval, Caval, etc refers to horses).
There is probably a place for the Calvary, but it would be odd for a rabbi to bring it up in that context!
FunnyDiva
The Pedant
behindthefall @ 183
The ethnic groups in the area now are a result of thousands of years of population movements, but Persians are one of the core populations of the region.
Kathleen @ 198
Kathleen — There are evil people in government. EVIL. I mean fucking evil. And, because of the constitution, evil people in the military.
Germany was very racially nationalistic and hated the Jewish people vehemently. America is a melting pot. Although there is racism, etc., here in this country, there is not one uniting target as there was in Germany. The Bush’s are unable to unite this country the way Hitler did in order to pull off anything even similar. Not to say they haven’t tried, but they cannot succeed. I think it is a sort of weak fascist wave that will subside, unlike the German and Italian fascist tsunami. JMHO
JPL @ 193
I read that Tillman’s brother was only two miles away when this happened. I’m sure that he heard something through military gossip, if nothing else. Surely there would be rangers who did not approve of the coverup.
RE Permanent bases:
eCAHNomics @ 200
Ha. We’ll end up bombing the f**k out of them to make sure they’re unusable.
Ed*ard Teller @ 149
Wonderful, ET! Would ET’s mom officially be the oldest member of the commenting Lake?
GordonM @ 196
It can also be released from the sub soil, OZ has this problem.
GordonM @ 195
See me @ 113, 80, 70, 51 ifyou haven’t been following this topic all along.
rocket scientist @ 202
You’re right, I will give you 5% on that, but it could have been arranged with a simple take out of Saddam (no need for permanent bases, full military intervention).
LS @ 207
hope.you’re.right.
LS @ 207
Doesn’t the drive to get us to view Muslims as the enemy sound like this administration’s attempt to unify us in hatred and fear of a single group?
egregious-you still here & still drinking?
BigMitch-you drinking?
Anyone else want to join me in a scotch?
Ed*ard Teller @ 179
Dooood! I’m about an hour north of you, just north of Seattle proper.
no voice lessons for over a year. Soprano, top end was in progress, but only because I had good teachers work in the middle/low register for literally years. So…Soprano with a good low extension, more comfortable singing the lower part when there’s divisi. This month I’ve “switch hit” in both Mahler 3rd Symphony and Carmina Burana. Our soprano section is about 30% larger than the alto section, so we tend to divide the women’s parts based on number, not on nominal section. I think that makes the most sense anyway…
my email is
funnydiva2002 at yahoo daht calm
would be fun to chat.
Best
FunnyDiva
eCAHNomics @ 216
Sure
eCAHNomics @ 170
So would I. Did he write to them? Speak to them? Was it something he revealed to them that got him executed? It certainly was a lot more than suspicion or that old gut feeling.
argosfalcon @ 217
Here’s lookin’ at you.
Fern @ 203
Yeah. Apparently it draws salts out of the deep soil to the surface. If you flood, the salts (and a lot more) leach out, leaving effective concrete. If you just irrigate (trying to grow say lettuce in dry soil) the salts end up at the surface and the land is poisoned.
Organic techniques work better, because you hold moisture, instead of perpetually pouring it on.
Digby, at salon.com:
eCAHNomics @ 216
A little bourbon if you’re carrying… thanks.
newtonusr @ 223
neat
punaise @ 221
I was raised on Dick & Jane books in early elementary school-really-no kidding. About a decade ago I picked up a 1952 teacher’s edition at a used book store.
And yes, it would be a dream to have Shooter as the R candidate.
newtonusr @ 222
Tickle of ice. Glug glug of bourbon. Here you go (extending hand with glass in it).
eCAHNomics @ 216
I’ll takeone with a little water. Thanks
behindthefall @ 183
Cool theory vis a vis swamp Arabs and ancient Sumer. How would one check? Well, there have been digs, right? There should be material and archaeological expertise available. Mitochondrial DNA could be informative. And reasonable to invoke in a novel even if the hard evidence isn’t available in real life.
Before he was Supreme Head of Antiquities in Egypt, Dr. Zahi Hawass (I think it was him) did some DNA studies comparing remains from the workers’ villages in Giza and modern Egyptians. Surprise! The DNA evidence supports that modern Egyptians are descendants of the people who built the pyramids (or as Dr Hawass says, “the Birri-mids).
I know someone I can ask about that study if you’re interested.
funnydiva2002 at yahoo daht calm
FunnyDiva
eCAHNomics @ 226
you found the “refresh commenters” button
LS @ 207
IMHO, fascists do not need a unifying scapegoat. All they need is a preponderance of violence and the support of the dominant families, e.g., Peron in Argentina. The post-Nixon Republicans have had the Communists and the Banana Republics as their key models. I call W and the neocons the Fourth Reich only because of their worldwide imperial ambitions, Pax Americana, as outlined in the Project for a New American Century. But that is something that W and the neocons brought to Republicanism. Reagan was content to establisn a Banana republic devoid of labor unions, a middle class, and government involvment in promoting the general welfare.
punaise @ 222
Couldn’t we just run him out of the country on a rail (I would have add the tar and feathers, but the tar he might enjoy , and feathers seems too cruel to the birds. All tho the chicken might be asked to donate sum.)
It wouldn’t surprise me if the General was demoted yesterday because they knew AP was writing an article about Tillman’s death.
New thread upstairs.
Looks like we get to continue the Pat Tillman discussion!
FunnyDiva
argosfalcon @ 217
If I were a drinking person which I ain’t too much of anymore, I would be sippin’ on a fine single barrel/small batch bourbon like Woodford Reserve.
punaise @ 229
Guess this is a full service blog.
ccmask @ 227
I’m imbibing in a very nice Marlborough Savignon Blanc, White Haven ‘06.
eCANH aroung 212: Yeah, I’ve been following (though only scanning). The upstream dams in Turkey etc. stop the floods, which carry organic matter, which settles and rots and makes good soil… (Egypt and the Nile are the archetypical story.) Which is why the swamps may never recover, and the soil gets saline from irrigation…
Don’t eff with mother nature.
Jonathan @ 206
Funnydiva2002 @ 217
Weird – I can get incoming e-mail here on my AK address, but can’t send. I’m tempted to get a gmail account here. I was going to try to go to the Seattle Drinking Librally meetup next week at Montlake Alehouse, but just found out they’re “in hiatus.” ?
Gotta take mom out for Thiai food, pups…
I think it’s mitochondrial DNA that can trace genetic material relations over vast sweeps of history. Now you know all I know about it, but those are the kinds of studies I’d look for. Sounds like an interesting project.
eCAHNomics @ 226
Raising mine to Jane, Christy and Rep. Barbara Lee.
skol ladies
To give a little perspective, here’s what has already passed the House as part of its FY 2008 Defense Authorization Bill (H.R. 1585), and is now pending in the Senate:
EPU
Just arrived home from a long day in the the Detroit area and am sipping Drambuie. Looks like the Lake has been busy. Thanks all for the great relaxing reading material from this and the last few threads.
Thinking, too, that if the House does not begin impeachment proceedings on Abu and/or others now, they will look like enablers, and possibly co-conspirators in allowing so much wrongness.
Salut to 241 (and to you Seattle people) with a Redhook Summer Ale (a nostalgia buy), I have a warm spot for them. I once helped fix a valve in their brewery when they were still a micro brewery located in the old Seattle Trolley Station. Does that mean I’m old?
Last time I looked (I think they were up front)
there were Girls in the House. I even think one has a last name of LEE. Is, Pelosi is a girl? Is my girl, Betty Lou Sutton is a Girl?
Or, is the DailyKos tinfoil messing with my brain?
In my house, I call her “Yes, Your Majesty.”. After all, I’d gladly her all over again.
nonplussed @ 244
Nah, I remember The TrolleyMan, and I’M NOT old.
Funnydiva.
eCAHNomics @ 113
I didn’t discover these comments until WAY into EPU time. This is a matter of some historical interest to me, as it affects what used to be my professional interest (focussed on SW Iran, mainly the Karun and Karkheh rivers). Salinity is a BIG issue, and has been for thousands of years. Drainage is also big, because otherwise salts accumulate in the soil. You gotta have (a) a fresh water source, (b) canals, and (c) drains. Marshes or irrigated fields with no drains eventually become too saline. Its a big, complicated, and very important issue. Back in the 60s, SW Iran had a big agricultural project modeled on the Tennessee Valley Authority. I have copies of a number of reports that were done back then, which included river flows, salinity, and a host of other agricultural data. The UN was heavily involved.
Bob in HI
Funnydiva2002 @ 228
These DNA studies are amazing. One of those I found most interesting was Michael Hammer’s work showing that the Palestinians were not “Bedouin Arabs” but actually were descendents of the same group of people that gave rise to modern Jewish populations. In fact, many Palestinians (and some Lebanese) WERE indistinguishable from Jews. This pretty much fits with the work of archaeologist Israel Finkelstein who has established cultural continuity between the Canaanites and the later Jewish Kingdoms.
In addition there seem to be a large number of Palestinians whose ancestors were once Jewish, but who converted to Christianity during Byzantine times, and then some of thiose converted to Islam.
Ironic that both parties in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict may have equal “claims” to the land on historical basis…neither are “strangers” to the region.
eCAHNomics @ 240
You can do it with Y-chromosomal genes as well.
In fact one can do it also with just about any gene and the “daughter mutations” if one isn’t strictly concerned about following a strictly matrilineal or patrilineal pattern and are only concerned about contact and the “history of the gene”.
Get Tough @ 110
Leo Phreakin Strauss.
The Phookin Fawther To All This Evil.
Yer on it, hoss . . .
eCAHNomics @ 161
Three slugs from a M-16 is ONE GUY!!
Not more, not less. One person pulled that trigger to kill Pat Tillman.
And if it was done so that THREE bullets from an M-16 went into the forehead, it likely blew the SHIT outta his head, leaving not much, behind.
These bullet tumble, they don’t rotate.
Three in a forehead, would eliminate the head from the torso.
Any grunts wanna chip in on this?
And it was one of OURS.
I wonder why. Was he too gung ho?
GordonM @ 182
Gordie, no offense but, yer nuckin phutz.
It’s NOT over, the battles are just beginning.
I hope to see you in the streets, cuz the comedy clubs will be closed soon.
Maybe we can share them there purple berries . . . . *G*