zed?

Woooo-hoooo! The birthday week gets better and better!

-S

By a mile!

dos? tres?

heh

Gonzo is Texas toast, yes.

Impeach Gonzo!!!! Maybe Jane will get her birthday present after all. Lets see what Tony Snowjob has to say about it now.

This is great timing. The dems have been doing coordinated planning. I’m impressed.

That’s a big bus coming down the road, Mr. Gonzales. Better step aside there, young feller.

We are focusing on Mr. G’s predicament; but the real story, the one that counts, is the matter they discussed. What exactly were they doing? I hope this gets followed up, because it may just scare ordinary people into action to know that everything they say and was — probably still is — being monitored by Big Brother.

wow, flamin’ justice!

cool, swopa. thanks.

Wow! Was out all day and just got home to read all these revelations…woo hoo! Justice!

Biodun @ 6

Gonzo is Texas toast, yes.

Not yet. Yhe little worm can still “correct” his “mistaken” testimony.

Abu said yesterday that he’s sticking by his testimony, but he’s not exactly known for being truthful, now is he? (no fair answering this question with an ‘I don’t recall’)

Wadaya all think about Mueller’s notes? Are they likely to be revealing? And what did he mean by “deliberative?”

Good on Conyers for calling Meuller….he is laying it out step by step……

Hear that unka Karl? LMAO

I was reading over at TPM (via Raw Story) though that the Justice Dept won’t enforce the subpoenas.

The Justice Department sent a letter yesterday to the House Judiciary Committee that made the administration’s position official: a U.S. attorney will not enforce a citation of contempt, should it pass the House

Ellison discussing the American Muslim community. Elicits that this population has been helpful. Always room for improvement.

Ellison, arrests in Deerbourne, banks will be terminated? Meuller says there will be times that the FBI has to do unpopular things. Relations can be improved.

“On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program.” per AP, quoted above.

Not true! He repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the “terrorist surveillance program that the President confirmed.” The President did not confirm the existence of the parts of the program that were dropped on account of Comey’s and Mueller’s objections.

@ 15

I was reading over at TPM (via Raw Story) though that the Justice Dept won’t enforce the subpoenas.

The Justice Department sent a letter yesterday to the House Judiciary Committee that made the administration’s position official: a U.S. attorney will not enforce a citation of contempt, should it pass the House

I think this is going to work out to be a good thing…

eCAHNomics @ 13

Wadaya all think about Mueller’s notes? Are they likely to be revealing? And what did he mean by “deliberative?”

could be promising. I mean, even congresspeople can still detect the smell of a rat. Rockefeller’s little missive comes to mind…

I guess some folks here and there still care about integrity and have taken steps to prove their claims beyond the shadow of a bought and paid for reporter.

BigMitch @ 17

“On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program.” per AP, quoted above.

Not true! He repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the “terrorist surveillance program that the President confirmed. The President did not confirm the existence of the parts of the program that were dropped on account of Comey’s and Mueller’s objections.

I do not understand what was the purpose of AGAG saying this. Can anyone explain whathe was trying to accomplish? Did it relate to perjury possibilities in an earlier testimony?

Conyers: “It’s been a very fruitful day”…!

OldCoastie @ 18

@ 15

I was reading over at TPM (via Raw Story) though that the Justice Dept won’t enforce the subpoenas.

I think this is going to work out to be a good thing…

How?

That was cool.

BigMitch @ 17

“On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program.” per AP, quoted above.

Not true! He repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the “terrorist surveillance program that the President confirmed. The President did not confirm the existence of the parts of the program that were dropped on account of Comey’s and Mueller’s objections.

Is there any significance that the transcript in Swopa’s post says “a program” not “the program”? A program that nobody wants to talk about?

do-si-do @ 19

eCAHNomics @ 13

Wadaya all think about Mueller’s notes? Are they likely to be revealing? And what did he mean by “deliberative?”

could be promising. I mean, even congresspeople can still detect the smell of a rat. Rockefeller’s little missive comes to mind…

I guess some folks here and there still care about integrity and have taken steps to prove their claims beyond the shadow of a bought and paid for reporter.

Oh, my other Q is, how did Davis know Mueller had notes? Shot in the dark or did a little fairy tell him?

Even if Gonzo “fixes” yesterday’s testimony, he then faces another perjurious statement — when he said under oath that there was no internal DOJ disputes or disagreements over the warrantless wiretapping program. Mueller nails down Comey’s testimony that he and other DOJ were ready to resign over “a program.” Mueller has now all but confirmed the program Comey was ready to resign over was warrantless wiretapping, the subject of the bedside mtg.

If I’ve got this wrong, someone pls. correct me. Thanks.

LS @ 21

Conyers: “It’s been a very fruitful day”…!

Yep. Beer-thirty.

Abu can still still always recall a knowledge of remembering, which he forgot to testify about at a hearing he can’t recall, at which a question was asked that he doesn’t remember. But he could correct the record with his newly-recalled knowledge of a remembrance of a matter which slipped his mind.

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

I have a question. Just for grins, let’s say the whole lot is held in inherent contempt. This really needs to be addressed in the House, doesn’t it? Because, according to the evil wikipedia, in the Senate the proceedings are chaired by none other than the Senate President, VP Darth Cheney. And we all know where that will end up.

Good for Conyers & co! He needs to get on the tails of Karl and Gonzo next.

I read Mueller as being evasive. Any wiretapping (commnications surveillance) program is going to be handled by the NSA; that’s their mandate. So, in saying repeatedly saying that it was “an NSA program,” he is telling us absolutely nothing — he’s simply avoiding the question in a rather sophomoric way.

Haven’t read it yet, but Marcy has a post on the Rove subpoena.

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

that’s what I’m wondering – like he’s out there wagging his big bare ass at the committee intentionally… double-dog dare ya’!

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

He’s protecting the Chimpenfuhrer, whom he still thinks of as his client.

wigwam @ 31

I read Mueller as being evasive. Any wiretapping (commnications surveillance) program is going to be handled by the NSA; that’s their mandate. So, in saying repeatedly saying that it was “an NSA program,” he is telling us absolutely nothing — he’s simply avoiding the question in a rather sophomoric way.

I thought toward the end Mueller said that it was the program that everyone was talking about, ordid I hallucinate that?

eCAHNomics @ 27

LS @ 21

Conyers: “It’s been a very fruitful day”…!

Yep. Beer-thirty.

OK, I’ll finally come out with this after over a year at FDL: What is the origin of beer-thirty? It’s probably from emptywheel. It’s going out and having beers, but what the hell is the thirty?

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

Why not?
400 hours community service and a cushy post-Administration job that enables you to post a $250k fine in under a day seems to be small disincentive.

eCAHNomics @ 20

BigMitch @ 17

“On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program.” per AP, quoted above.

Not true! He repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the “terrorist surveillance program that the President confirmed. The President did not confirm the existence of the parts of the program that were dropped on account of Comey’s and Mueller’s objections.

I do not understand what was the purpose of AGAG saying this. Can anyone explain whathe was trying to accomplish? Did it relate to perjury possibilities in an earlier testimony?

Um, am i thinking what you all are thinking…that Abu is doing his darndest to take a bullet for W? IOW, if some even more nefarious aspect of the NSA/TSP program comes to light, that the Bushster can deny ever knowing about it? Perhaps that is the sole purpose????

Am I being stoopid again?

See now this is what makes me so sick to my stomach about spineless Dems.

Even now Leahy gives this scumbag another week to amend his testimony. Or else what?

Special Prosecutor. Big fucking deal. Fitzgerald took what, 3 years to convict Libby. Then he was (excuse me, will be) pardoned anyway.

By the time a new prosecutor even gets started Bush’s term will be over. And this lying piece of shit USAG will STILL be in place.

There is more than enough eveidence to IMPEACH Gonzales NOW. WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY WAITING FOR!!!

And just to answer my own question, they are waiting for the clock to run out just like Bush and gang.

Christ, I’m just so fucking sick of it all……….

@ 22

OldCoastie @ 18

I think this is going to work out to be a good thing…

How?

force Congress to issue “inherent contempt” citations and make their own arrests instead of waiting 500 years for the courts to decide… but that’s just my impatience speaking.

eCAHNomics @ 20

BigMitch @ 17

“On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program.” per AP, quoted above.

Not true! He repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the “terrorist surveillance program that the President confirmed. The President did not confirm the existence of the parts of the program that were dropped on account of Comey’s and Mueller’s objections.

I do not understand what was the purpose of AGAG saying this. Can anyone explain whathe was trying to accomplish? Did it relate to perjury possibilities in an earlier testimony?

Yes. Gonzo said that there was no serious dispute about the “TSP that the President confirmed.” In a twisted, misleading way, this is true, since the only parts that the President confirmed were not subject to objection. However, any normal person, i.e. not a lawyer, listening to this would have concluded that there was objection to the TSP or at least parts of it. So, yes, he is trying to avoid being charged for perjury for saying there was no objection to the TSP.

Having said that, Knut @ #9, supra, makes a good point. We don’t know, and perhaps we never shall, what are the parts of the program which were objected to, by Comey, Mueller, and belatedly by Ashcroft. Considering how blatently illegal the TSP as we know it was, the objectionable parts must have been way out there. And we should not lose sight of the fact that upon the advise of John Yoo, these parts were in operation for nigh on to two years. Scary shit, for sure.

eCAHNomics @ 35

wigwam @ 31

I read Mueller as being evasive. Any wiretapping (commnications surveillance) program is going to be handled by the NSA; that’s their mandate. So, in saying repeatedly saying that it was “an NSA program,” he is telling us absolutely nothing — he’s simply avoiding the question in a rather sophomoric way.

I thought toward the end Mueller said that it was the program that everyone was talking about, ordid I hallucinate that?

That didn’t exactly do much to clarify things – at least to me.

eCAHNomics @ 25

do-si-do @ 19

could be promising. I mean, even congresspeople can still detect the smell of a rat. Rockefeller’s little missive comes to mind…

I guess some folks here and there still care about integrity and have taken steps to prove their claims beyond the shadow of a bought and paid for reporter.

Oh, my other Q is, how did Davis know Mueller had notes? Shot in the dark or did a little fairy tell him?

Why did Mueller think the event was of sufficient importance to take notes. He must have seen that this was maybe going to be a problem in the future and wanted to be absolutely sure of his own ground? Even as FBI Honcho he must still have been worried about what these bushies would do next… about him and Comey?

eCAHNomics @ 25

do-si-do @ 19

could be promising. I mean, even congresspeople can still detect the smell of a rat. Rockefeller’s little missive comes to mind…

I guess some folks here and there still care about integrity and have taken steps to prove their claims beyond the shadow of a bought and paid for reporter.

Oh, my other Q is, how did Davis know Mueller had notes? Shot in the dark or did a little fairy tell him?

My money’s on a little Justice fairy.

Biodun @ 36

eCAHNomics @ 27

Yep. Beer-thirty.

OK, I’ll finally come out with this after over a year at FDL: What is the origin of beer-thirty? It’s probably from emptywheel. It’s going out and having beers, but what the hell is the thirty?

Don’t knwo the origin of beer-thirty but probably similar to having to get up at O’dark thirty for a plane or whatever.

eCAHNomics @ 25

Oh, my other Q is, how did Davis know Mueller had notes? Shot in the dark or did a little fairy tell him?

I don’t Mueller tipped them off–he looked really pissed that Davis had asked, and tried to get out of admitting he had them. He first said “he might have” notes, then ‘fessed up.

I’m concerned about his claim of deliberative privilege. If he memorialized his meeting with Bush (which Davis didn’t ask about, which is what I wanted him to ask), he would be able to protect him bc CLEARLY that was deliberative.

But the other stuff? I noted he said his lawyer was a govt lawyer, so I think they’ve advised him to invoke privilege expansively.

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

I think they got overconfident, and the Dems sprang a trap Gonzo & Co. didn’t expect.

Biodun @ 36

eCAHNomics @ 27

Yep. Beer-thirty.

OK, I’ll finally come out with this after over a year at FDL: What is the origin of beer-thirty? It’s probably from emptywheel. It’s going out and having beers, but what the hell is the thirty?

It’s the time on the clock when you go out to have a beer.

Like dark o’clock is when you get out of bed if you have an early morning meeting.

Mark C @39

Chill man. This will roll downhill faster than Nixon. Keep the faith!

Seems like HJC & SJC are more coordinated than I presumed.

Biodun @ 36

eCAHNomics @ 27

Yep. Beer-thirty.

OK, I’ll finally come out with this after over a year at FDL: What is the origin of beer-thirty? It’s probably from emptywheel. It’s going out and having beers, but what the hell is the thirty?

Beer Thirty = Quitting Time!

Mark C @ 39

You’re in good company, dude. I ranted yesterday. But today I feel like the noose might be tightening and Congress wants to make sure the knot is going to hold.

The way everyone in Bushco parses words, spins, etc. I suppose they want a rock solid case to bulldoze the amnesia defense.

Just my thoughts. I share your impatience, though.

eCAHNomics @ 48:

Thanks. Irish, then I take it.

dakine01 @ 45

Biodun @ 36

OK, I’ll finally come out with this after over a year at FDL: What is the origin of beer-thirty? It’s probably from emptywheel. It’s going out and having beers, but what the hell is the thirty?

Don’t knwo the origin of beer-thirty but probably similar to having to get up at O’dark thirty for a plane or whatever.

I got it from my brother. And used it for the liveblog just so the MSM would have a legitimate reason to mock us bloggers, since we were kicking their ass in every other way. They must have a special acronym for me–beer-besotted fucking hippie.

But I’ve been told beer thirty has a different origin, someplace real. It’s probably some kind of pop culture reference I don’t know about.

Hey Orrin:

Just as a general rule, having AG’s come to Congress and lie, that’s OK with you?

Or only when they are Republicans?

Give us your take.

Douglas Watts @ 26

Even if Gonzo “fixes” yesterday’s testimony, he then faces another perjurious statement — when he said under oath that there was no internal DOJ disputes or disagreements over the warrantless wiretapping program. Mueller nails down Comey’s testimony that he and other DOJ were ready to resign over “a program.” Mueller has now all but confirmed the program Comey was ready to resign over was warrantless wiretapping, the subject of the bedside mtg.

If I’ve got this wrong, someone pls. correct me. Thanks.

No, I think you have it right. His lies yesterday, or at least some of them, were about NOT lying previously. So he either lied to cover up lies or he just plain lied. Either way, he did what?

OldCoastie @ 40

@ 22

How?

force Congress to issue “inherent contempt” citations and make their own arrests instead of waiting 500 years for the courts to decide… but that’s just my impatience speaking.

Oh….I understand. I’m not an attorney, so I’m always curious about the legal aspects, etc.

I remember, in some testimony past, that Gonzo basically alluded to a separate, and yet unknown, domestic surveillance program.

The noose draws tighter. Of course George Bush told huge lies. And thousands upon thousands have perished as a result. Is impeachment on the table yet?

do-si-do @ 44

eCAHNomics @ 25

Oh, my other Q is, how did Davis know Mueller had notes? Shot in the dark or did a little fairy tell him?

My money’s on a little Justice fairy.

I am hoping this is the case. Would be an important indication that the dam is breaking. Only it wouldbe an FBI fairy, not Justice? Accordingto testimony, no one outside of FBI knows existence of notes.

@ 57

OldCoastie @ 40

force Congress to issue “inherent contempt” citations and make their own arrests instead of waiting 500 years for the courts to decide… but that’s just my impatience speaking.

Oh….I understand. I’m not an attorney, so I’m always curious about the legal aspects, etc.

I’m not a lawyer either, and I must say, I’m getting gratefuller and gratefuller about that very fact.

Swopa @ 47

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

I think they got overconfident, and the Dems sprang a trap Gonzo & Co. didn’t expect.

I think the White House is itching for a fight over executive privilege.

Lindy @ 51

Beer Thirty = Quitting Time!

Beer Thirty = Now

eCAHNomics @ 60

do-si-do @ 44

My money’s on a little Justice fairy.

I am hoping this is the case. Would be an important indication that the dam is breaking. Only it wouldbe an FBI fairy, not Justice? Accordingto testimony, no one outside of FBI knows existence of notes.

I wonder what else this fairy knows. And if he or she has friends.

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

I think it’s actually a pretty parallel structure to the way Scooter worked.

Scooter wanted to avoid every having to answer the question “Did Dick Cheney order you to leak Valerie Wilson’s identity after having gotten authorization from Bush?” So he lied about when he learned of Plame (July 10 rather than pre-July 8) and he lied about what he was ordered to leak to her (NIE instead of Plame) and so Fitz never got to go after the crowd jewels.

The same is true here. He’s going to lie about whether there WAS a dispute, so he’s never forced to explain the nature of the dispute, which is the crown jewels, because it is the BIG legal violation.

Plus, both Abu G and Scooter are protecting Dick and Bush. Better to have a loyal soldier go down and get pardoned than lose your general and his puppet.

emptywheel @ 54:

Yep. So I was right. You used it frequently during your memorable (and admirable) live-blog of Scooter’s trial.

If past is prelude, the FBI is the source of fairies.

Remember the perjury trap that Bush complained about, it appears AG got caught in the trap. In an earlier hearing he testified that there was no disagreement among DOJ staff regarding the TSP. He may have lied Tuesday to cover his previous false testimony

nomolos @ 63

Lindy @ 51

Beer Thirty = Quitting Time!

Beer Thirty = Now

One Fort Garry Pale coming up.

tommy yum @ 58

I remember, in some testimony past, that Gonzo basically alluded to a separate, and yet unknown, domestic surveillance program.

I think he was referring to the parts of the same TSP that were suspended when Comey, Mueller and (possibly) Ashcroft threatened to resign.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 59

The noose draws tighter. Of course George Bush told huge lies. And thousands upon thousands have perished as a result. Is impeachment on the table yet?

Oh, Nanceeee, is there something you’d like to put back on the table?

The same is true here. He’s going to lie about whether there WAS a dispute, so he’s never forced to explain the nature of the dispute, which is the crown jewels, because it is the BIG legal violation.

EW-Thank you for clearing this up. My bold.

emptywheel @ 65

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

I think it’s actually a pretty parallel structure to the way Scooter worked.

Scooter wanted to avoid every having to answer the question “Did Dick Cheney order you to leak Valerie Wilson’s identity after having gotten authorization from Bush?” So he lied about when he learned of Plame (July 10 rather than pre-July 8) and he lied about what he was ordered to leak to her (NIE instead of Plame) and so Fitz never got to go after the crowd jewels.

The same is true here. He’s going to lie about whether there WAS a dispute, so he’s never forced to explain the nature of the dispute, which is the crown jewels, because it is the BIG legal violation.

Plus, both Abu G and Scooter are protecting Dick and Bush. Better to have a loyal soldier go down and get pardoned than lose your general and his puppet.

Thing is though, that this is all happening out in public, not behind the closed doors of a grand jury room, like with Scooter.

If it weren’t for that “yes” at the end of each response, I’d wonder if Mueller was offering up some more extreme parsing for the sake of confusing everyone

man Jane, it’s like you were reading my mind, as I was reading his testimony I’m thinking;

*perris, this sounds mightily like loophole city where he can change testimony without too much difficulty*

and then the yes to confirm to the questioner they are talking about the same thing

good take too, I didn’t consider he might be giving a warning to abu torture he has to come clean

now as far as the next testimony before congress;

leahey has to ask if abu’s testimony claiming “we don’t torture” is using his “understanding” of what constitutes torture.

he also has to repeat abu’s claim of what is and isn’t torture and ask if abu torture stands by that definition

he then has to give some examples that will not cause death, loss of limb or organ fialure and ask abu if he considers that torture

he has to say;

“suppose we had some savages rape your daughter before your very eyes without causeing death, organ failure or loss of limb…do you think that is torture or not?

this is one sick man this guy that lopoks like magilla gorilla known as “gonzo”

OldCoastie @ 18

@ 15

I was reading over at TPM (via Raw Story) though that the Justice Dept won’t enforce the subpoenas.

I think this is going to work out to be a good thing…

Holy shite! The government is irretrievably broken.

The Justice Department is defying the legislative branch in service/deference to the executive branch. Hopefully, inherent contempt is now firmly back on the table.

Tomorrow’s headline: “Justice Department Launches Investigation of Manufacturer of Lindsay Lohan’s Ankle-Bracelet!!”.

The administration was involved in some illegal stuff at the highest levels and believed that they could get away with it for whatever reasons. They packed the courts, tried to cage elections to keep a repuke congress and would resort to exec priv and pardons to avoid facing justice.

Bush appointed his lapdog Gonzo to run the “Justice” department which used the political appointment for POLITICS.. ie to advance their agenda, and protect the administration.

The criminality is so brad and deep it is hard to comprehend. They have literally staged a coup in Haiti, spied on the UN and it wouldn’t surprise me if they had something to do with 9.11 that they are covering up. remember how they dodged the commission and finally testified in private with no transcript and no oath? What does that sound like to you?

Worst president ever ever ever.

@ 15

I was reading over at TPM (via Raw Story) though that the Justice Dept won’t enforce the subpoenas.

The Justice Department sent a letter yesterday to the House Judiciary Committee that made the administration’s position official: a U.S. attorney will not enforce a citation of contempt, should it pass the House

Wouldn’t this be the moment when all the career types and a few others with some integrity at the DOJ might just resign in unison?

emptywheel @ 65
snip…

Plus, both Abu G and Scooter are protecting Dick and Bush. Better to have a loyal soldier go down and get pardoned than lose your general and his puppet.

Which is why he needs to be impeached and not just indicted. If my theory is correct, if he’s impeached convicted and then tried and convicted in court he can’t be pardoned.

mc @ 71

Oklahoma kiddo @ 59

The noose draws tighter. Of course George Bush told huge lies. And thousands upon thousands have perished as a result. Is impeachment on the table yet?

Oh, Nanceeee, is there something you’d like to put back on the table?

Besides another rounda beer and a bowla popcorn?…

OldCoastie @ 33

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

that’s what I’m wondering – like he’s out there wagging his big bare ass at the committee intentionally… double-dog dare ya’!

Perhaps he has mistakenly, in a fit of stupidity, jumped to the triple dog dare?

I don’t believe for ONE minute that we have anything near an inventory of what surveillance programs were in place, are in place, have been certified, were uncertified for awhile, or have never been certified.

And I do not believe anything BushCo has been “willing” to say publicly about these programs.

I think Mueller was burdened by having to testify honestly without spilling any more of the magic beans.

We don’t have a clue, folks. It’s endless tea leaf reading.

However, Gonzo is liable for perjury no matter how he chooses to ‘correct’ his testimony because he has told so many contradictory lies.

And it is epic that there is now paperwork, statements, and additional testimony showing that he has lied. And all in the same news cycle!!!!!!

The HJC may just have asked Mueller about the notes BECAUSE Comey had made notes.

Fern @ 73

Thing is though, that this is all happening out in public, not behind the closed doors of a grand jury room, like with Scooter.

Very important.

realworld @ 67

If past is prelude, the FBI is the source of fairies.

History repeats itself, first as farce, then as tragedy. (Source?)

When Reagan did the ole Conra-gate thing, it was as a farce. Or was the farce an impeachment for a blow-job? Either way, what we are witnessing is deadly serious.

realworld @ 56

Douglas Watts @ 26

Even if Gonzo “fixes” yesterday’s testimony, he then faces another perjurious statement — when he said under oath that there was no internal DOJ disputes or disagreements over the warrantless wiretapping program. Mueller nails down Comey’s testimony that he and other DOJ were ready to resign over “a program.” Mueller has now all but confirmed the program Comey was ready to resign over was warrantless wiretapping, the subject of the bedside mtg.

If I’ve got this wrong, someone pls. correct me. Thanks.

No, I think you have it right. His lies yesterday, or at least some of them, were about NOT lying previously. So he either lied to cover up lies or he just plain lied. Either way, he did what?

Thanks — As such, I don’t see what Gonzales gains by ‘revising’ his testimony regarding the substance of the hospital bed visit. He emphatically told Schumer the subject was not the warrantless wiretapping. Now Mueller says it is. A ‘revision’ of Gonz’ testimony of that type would be tantamount to admitting to perjury. You can only “revise” so much before you have to plead insanity or alien abduction or lying under oath. That’s why, I think, Schumer pressed him so hard on that question.

realworld @ 67

If past is prelude, the FBI is the source of fairies.

Mueller did say he had told some close staffers.

And yes, those fairies do tend to huddle around the FBI, don’t they?

We can’t have this! Fire Mueller. He is obviously NOT a loyal Bushie. Remember, it is Bush family before Party before Religion before Country.

If Gonzo should “step down” right before the August recess can the chimp recess appoint a new AG while the Senate is gone?

And, if so, it’s just one more good reason for Harry Reid to keep ‘em at it – also to prevent the numerous other “jurists” and “ambassadors” and other WH operatives who will magically find their way in…

Swopa @ 47

Jane Hamsher @ 29

I was wondering just that this morning — why did Abu lie? And why wouldn’t he do a “Rove,” take a big dose of Gingko, and suddenly unmisremember?

Nobody wants to be Scooter.

I think they got overconfident, and the Dems sprang a trap Gonzo & Co. didn’t expect.

Makes perfect sense, which seldom works with these guys. My two cents – he was told to say exactly what he said and rehearsed it on a disposable phone with Karl Rove – until he had his lines down. Why? Dunno…

Back to mowing 2 acres of overgrown lawns and cutting blackberry vines.

By giving him a week to clarify or change his testimony, does it let him off the hook? Jeebus, at what point do they just call bullshit on this and charge him with what he has been committing all along – perjury.

You know, I really like to see Cheney’s grand jury testimony and take a look at the “corrections” he was able to make to save his *ss. Do you think that the DOJ memo giving him and his staff allowed him to see independent counsel’s files, so he could tailor his responses? Or was Fitz truly firewalled off from the rest of the DOJ?

woo hoo. bout time, Bob. btw, Nixon resigned in August. who says nothing happens in August?

It’s getting thick. Maybe something will happen. Definitely worth a beer-thirty. I’m skipping my Pilates tonight — always torture anyway — for a happy hour over at our local wine bar. Hoping against hope.

Now for something completely different, but possibly relevant.

I read a story in my newspaper this morning about a Nova Scotia farmer who is looking for his bees, 40,000 of them. Apparently the worker bees got the feeling that the queen bee wasn’t giving them enough jelly or whatever it is that turns them on, and so they changed her diet so she would give birth to some other potential queens. Some princesses were hatched, a usurper emerged, killed off all the potential usurpers and caused a civil war in the hive. Half the hive went off with the old Queen, hence the lost bees. Wondering if this isn’t the start of a metaphor for the present administration. We have seen some bees leaving the ruche, lately.

SanderO @ 76

The administration was involved in some illegal stuff at the highest levels and believed that they could get away with it for whatever reasons. They packed the courts, tried to cage elections to keep a repuke congress and would resort to exec priv and pardons to avoid facing justice.

Bush appointed his lapdog Gonzo to run the “Justice” department which used the political appointment for POLITICS.. ie to advance their agenda, and protect the administration.

Good short summary. I’ll leave off the stuff about 9/11 for now.

BigMitch @ 70

tommy yum @ 58

I remember, in some testimony past, that Gonzo basically alluded to a separate, and yet unknown, domestic surveillance program.

I think he was referring to the parts of the same TSP that were suspended when Comey, Mueller and (possibly) Ashcroft threatened to resign.

From Glenn Greenwald yesterday:

Ever since George Bush came right out in December, 2005 and admitted spying on Americans without the warrants required by law, the administration has been playing the same rhetorical game. From the beginning, when asked questions about the scope of their spying activities (are you eavesdropping on domestic calls, too? opening mail with no warrants? entering homes with no warrants?), they have carefully confined their denials to “the specific program which the President confirmed” — i.e., the specific “Terrorist Surveillance Program the NYT revealed. They have always made clear that there are “other intelligence programs” that we do not know about and which are excluded from all of their public assurances.

OK legal eagles. I still have a big problem with the whole pardon your minion thingy:

Plus, both Abu G and Scooter are protecting Dick and Bush. Better to have a loyal soldier go down and get pardoned than lose your general and his puppet.

I thought our FFs were smart enough to head this off? I know this was explained before, but this is like Bush pardoning himself…if exec privilege extends to these guys, then it means they are one big octopus.

realworld @ 78

emptywheel @ 65
snip…

Plus, both Abu G and Scooter are protecting Dick and Bush. Better to have a loyal soldier go down and get pardoned than lose your general and his puppet.

Which is why he needs to be impeached and not just indicted. If my theory is correct, if he’s impeached convicted and then tried and convicted in court he can’t be pardoned.

The limitation on the pardon power is that it can’t undo an impeachment. It is available for subsequent criminal convictions. IMO.

Badwater @ 86

We can’t have this! Fire Mueller. He is obviously NOT a loyal Bushie. Remember, it is Bush family before Party before Religion before Country.

He can kiss his Medal of Freedom “Goodbye.” Such an untarnished award, that, eh?

The perjury traps are out of control!

I wish I could see what good this will all do . . . those creeps will just keep on doing what they do and no one will be able to stop them (until maybe January 2009).

Citizen Jane @ 80

OldCoastie @ 33

that’s what I’m wondering – like he’s out there wagging his big bare ass at the committee intentionally… double-dog dare ya’!

Perhaps he has mistakenly, in a fit of stupidity, jumped to the triple dog dare?

that would be a nice cartoon: Abu’s lying tongue stuck to the frozen flagpole!

BigMitch @ 83

realworld @ 67

If past is prelude, the FBI is the source of fairies.

History repeats itself, first as farce, then as tragedy. (Source?)

When Reagan did the ole Conra-gate thing, it was as a farce. Or was the farce an impeachment for a blow-job? Either way, what we are witnessing is deadly serious.

Karl Marx.
http://www.bartleby.com/66/53/38153.html

Douglas Watts @ 84

realworld @ 56

No, I think you have it right. His lies yesterday, or at least some of them, were about NOT lying previously. So he either lied to cover up lies or he just plain lied. Either way, he did what?

Thanks — As such, I don’t see what Gonzales gains by ‘revising’ his testimony regarding the substance of the hospital bed visit. He emphatically told Schumer the subject was not the warrantless wiretapping. Now Mueller says it is. A ‘revision’ of Gonz’ testimony of that type would be tantamount to admitting to perjury. You can only “revise” so much before you have to plead insanity or alien abduction or lying under oath. That’s why, I think, Schumer pressed him so hard on that question.

Not hard enough, in my opinion.

History repeats itself, first as farce, then as tragedy. (Source?)

Karl Marx.

plainjane @ 90

You know, I really like to see Cheney’s grand jury testimony and take a look at the “corrections” he was able to make to save his *ss. Do you think that the DOJ memo giving him and his staff allowed him to see independent counsel’s files, so he could tailor his responses? Or was Fitz truly firewalled off from the rest of the DOJ?

Given the timing, it’s largely moot. By the time Cheney got the keys, Fitz was already slow-revealing what he believed he had on Cheney. It was 6 months after the indictment, and just weeks before Rove’s last GJ appearance.

If Gonzo changes his testimony, where does that leave everything??

Swopa,
The reason that Mueller won’t specifically adopt the use of TSP is not to add to the parsing defense. It is because he issued an edict (in writing I believe) some months ago forbidding FBI personal from commenting on or admitting the existance of ANY programs that the NSA may be running.

He has previously testifed that it is the policy of the FBI not to comment on the activites of other agencies.

He is just trying not to break his own rule. Not succeding, mind you, but I think he is just trying to be consistant.

Moral at FBI is horrible and he has a lot of dissension in the ranks. People got yelled pretty bad for statements made (even within gov’t) when the NSA program was initially leaked. If he did an about face right now (which he is doing, but trying not to) about whether it is OK to talk about it, he will have a tough time with his own troops. There could be a complete breakdown of discipline, FBI is close to munity as it is.

Funny thing is, I think his troops would more than forgive him, if he did this courageously, forthrightly and did not worry about his own hide.

personally, I just loved his “following the law just takes so much TIME!” defense of avoiding warrants. I mean, if we’re going to be stuck down here in the rabbit hole, let’s REALLY BE STUCK DOWN HERE IN THE RABBIT HOLE.

Gonzo is not resigning and Bush will support him 100 percent. Bush does not care what anyone thinks of him. Neither does Gonzales. Bush is going to stonewall everything by every means necessary. Bush has no choice and neither does Gonzales.

Will the Committees want to know more about the program/plan that was run illegally before the hospital visit to Ashcroft (presumably in a last ditch effort to make it legal retroactively)? Or do I have it all wrong?

Why are our public servants such as Mueller forcing their overseers to drag out information that should be in the public domain?

FBI is close to munity as it is

Not close enough.

looseheadprop @ 106

Swopa,
The reason that Mueller won’t specifically adopt the use of TSP is not to add to the parsing defense. It is because he issued an edict (in writing I believe) some months ago forbidding FBI personal from commenting on or admitting the existance of ANY programs that the NSA may be running.

He has previously testifed that it is the policy of the FBI not to comment on the activites of other agencies.

He is just trying not to break his own rule. Not succeding, mind you, but I think he is just trying to be consistant.

Moral at FBI is horrible and he has a lot of dissension in the ranks. People got yelled pretty bad for statements made (even within gov’t) when the NSA program was initially leaked. If he did an about face right now (which he is doing, but trying not to) about whether it is OK to talk about it, he will have a tough time with his own troops. There could be a complete breakdown of discipline, FBI is close to munity as it is.

Funny thing is, I think his troops would more than forgive him, if he did this courageously, forthrightly and did not worry about his own hide.

Thanks for the explanation, lhp!

plainjane @ 90

You know, I really like to see Cheney’s grand jury testimony and take a look at the “corrections” he was able to make to save his *ss. Do you think that the DOJ memo giving him and his staff allowed him to see independent counsel’s files, so he could tailor his responses? Or was Fitz truly firewalled off from the rest of the DOJ?

you know something?

a spark lit up in my head when I read your post;

when fitz was going about doing his investigatering, cheney made it a specific point to go on tour and tell everyone he had been given authority to declassify “on the fly”

now in hindsight we see that was probably done because he knew the fitz had him with the goods

Why doesn’t the HJC subpoena Ashcroft?

Lots of Americans didn’t know who Scooter Libby was. A few more know who Alberto Gonzalez is. Pretty much everybody knows who Karl Rove is, so a subpoena to Rove is the beginning of a forced understanding into the thickest of heads.

Am I correct to assume that Cheney cannot be subpoenaed?

perris @ 112

plainjane @ 90

You know, I really like to see Cheney’s grand jury testimony and take a look at the “corrections” he was able to make to save his *ss. Do you think that the DOJ memo giving him and his staff allowed him to see independent counsel’s files, so he could tailor his responses? Or was Fitz truly firewalled off from the rest of the DOJ?

you know something?

a spark lit up in my head when I read your post;

when fitz was going about doing his investigatering, cheney made it a specific point to go on tour and tell everyone he had been given authority to declassify “on the fly”

now in hindsight we see that was probably done because he knew the fitz had him with the goods

Would that have been around the time of the memo that Whitehouse has Tuesday (or whenever) about OVP having access to DOJ information?

Sally @ 109

Will the Committees want to know more about the program/plan that was run illegally before the hospital visit to Ashcroft (presumably in a last ditch effort to make it legal retroactively)? Or do I have it all wrong?

Why are our public servants such as Mueller forcing their overseers to drag out information that should be in the public domain?

The argument that this secret surveillance program should remain secret will be sustained in Congress and the Courts. But I suspect strongly, that Congress has been mislead in secret about this, too. And that should piss them off.

Jonathan @ 113

Why doesn’t the HJC subpoena Ashcroft?

Because he was drugged up and might arguably be incapable of giving competent evidence.

*Mrs.* Ashcroft, on the other hand…

Douglas Watts @ 108

Gonzo is not resigning and Bush will support him 100 percent. Bush does not care what anyone thinks of him. Neither does Gonzales. Bush is going to stonewall everything by every means necessary. Bush has no choice and neither does Gonzales.

Whenever I see that photo of Bush and Abu looking into each other’s eyes, that schmaltzy Helen Reddy song just pops into my head:

You and me against the world…sometimes it feels like you and me against the world…

perris @112

Didn’t he first do this in the post-shooting interview with Hume?

Jonathan @ 113

Why doesn’t the HJC subpoena Ashcroft?

I believe it was because he was sedated & his memory might not be reliable. But I didn’t get straight the story about his wife. Did she leave the room during the conversation, or if not, why not subpoena her?

jayt @ 114

Lots of Americans didn’t know who Scooter Libby was. A few more know who Alberto Gonzalez is. Pretty much everybody knows who Karl Rove is, so a subpoena to Rove is the beginning of a forced understanding into the thickest of heads.

Am I correct to assume that Cheney cannot be subpoenaed?

And folks would wonder why the Pres needs confidential Political advice from Rove this deep into his second term

Jonathan @ 113

Why doesn’t the HJC subpoena Ashcroft?

They have already gotten testimony from him behind closed doors – a couple of weeks ago.

BigMitch @ 96

realworld @ 78

emptywheel @ 65
snip…Which is why he needs to be impeached and not just indicted. If my theory is correct, if he’s impeached convicted and then tried and convicted in court he can’t be pardoned.

The limitation on the pardon power is that it can’t undo an impeachment. It is available for subsequent criminal convictions. IMO.

You might be right BigMitch. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer here but there is an argument that if your impeached and convicted you are also SOL when it comes to a pardon for a judicial conviction for the same crime. Look here and give me feedback.

I’ve been out of the comment loop. Surely someone has asked, seriously, WTF! – why on earth would he lie about something so easily disputed – fer christsakes, Grandma Speaker was there! Did he think she wouldn’t say anything?

I seriously don’t get it.

eCAHNomics @ 120

Jonathan @ 113

Why doesn’t the HJC subpoena Ashcroft?

I believe it was because he was sedated & his memory might not be reliable. But I didn’t get straight the story about his wife. Did she leave the room during the conversation, or if not, why not subpoena her?

It was discussed here yesterday, I think, that Ashcroft previously spoke with the committee behind closed doors.

Jonathan @ 113

Why doesn’t the HJC subpoena Ashcroft?

He’s been interviewed by investigators…might have been by the Senate, but he has been talked to under oath.

eCAHNomics @ 20

BigMitch @ 17

“On Tuesday, Gonzales repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the terrorist surveillance program.” per AP, quoted above.

Not true! He repeatedly and emphatically denied that the dispute was about the “terrorist surveillance program that the President confirmed. The President did not confirm the existence of the parts of the program that were dropped on account of Comey’s and Mueller’s objections.

I do not understand what was the purpose of AGAG saying this. Can anyone explain whathe was trying to accomplish? Did it relate to perjury possibilities in an earlier testimony?

Because if you knew what were the things, theparts of the program had to be dropped to stop the DOJ/FBI revolt–there would no way to avoid impeachment.

It’s what they were doing that is so bad.

I am left wondering whether the 500 or so “mistakes” in the spying program that the FBI reported but were not followed up on were not in fact reports of mistakes but of what they thought were in fact abuses. Does make one wonder if there are not a few unhappy campers in the FBI that would love to see gonzo in the stocks.

realworld @ 123

BigMitch @ 96

The limitation on the pardon power is that it can’t undo an impeachment. It is available for subsequent criminal convictions. IMO.

You might be right BigMitch. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer here but there is an argument that if your impeached and convicted you are also SOL when it comes to a pardon for a judicial conviction for the same crime. Look here and give me feedback.

Can people be pardoned pre-emptively? Because by the time a lot of this gets to court (if indeed it does) Bush will no longer be in a position to pardon anyone.

Fern @ 115

perris @ 112

you know something?

a spark lit up in my head when I read your post;

when fitz was going about doing his investigatering, cheney made it a specific point to go on tour and tell everyone he had been given authority to declassify “on the fly”

now in hindsight we see that was probably done because he knew the fitz had him with the goods

Would that have been around the time of the memo that Whitehouse has Tuesday (or whenever) about OVP having access to DOJ information?

no, I think it’s before that…we need a time line

jayt @ 114

Lots of Americans didn’t know who Scooter Libby was. A few more know who Alberto Gonzalez is. Pretty much everybody knows who Karl Rove is, so a subpoena to Rove is the beginning of a forced understanding into the thickest of heads.

Am I correct to assume that Cheney cannot be subpoenaed?

I see no reason that Cheney can’t be subpoenaed. He is not the President.

Mommybrain @ 124

I’ve been out of the comment loop. Surely someone has asked, seriously, WTF! – why on earth would he lie about something so easily disputed – fer christsakes, Grandma Speaker was there! Did he think she wouldn’t say anything?

I seriously don’t get it.

Oh there you go, being partisan again!

IMO they are still trying to ride on the “trust me I’m GOP”. You can’t trust a Dem, they’re just so partisan and political.

rinse. repeat.

wigwam @ 31

I read Mueller as being evasive. Any wiretapping (commnications surveillance) program is going to be handled by the NSA; that’s their mandate. So, in saying repeatedly saying that it was “an NSA program,” he is telling us absolutely nothing — he’s simply avoiding the question in a rather sophomoric way.

based on mueller and comey’s testimony where they don’t come out and out talking about a covert program until it was revealed at a later date, I wonder if there WAS another program in place- similar to the TSP, but maybe even more egregious…

maybe gonzo is protecting not just his overlords but the existence of this program… i think that since gonzo has lied repeatedly and generally acted the fool, that everyone automatically assumes that this is more of the same… before we assume that, maybe the nytimes needs to ask their source if there is something else in the weeds that hasn’t been revealed before

Douglas Watts @ 108

Gonzo is not resigning and Bush will support him 100 percent. Bush does not care what anyone thinks of him. Neither does Gonzales. Bush is going to stonewall everything by every means necessary. Bush has no choice and neither does Gonzales.

this is not a support thing, this is a “cover your butt” thing

the president cannot afford anyone else looking at the programz magilla ok’d.

he has to stay with magilla or get an ag that guarantees to him they will turn a blind eye to what has been done

that’s the reason magilla stays

Beer thirty is a visceral fact for working class dudes. It’s when you’re 2 1/2 hours into an overtime shift and everybody’s crabby and snapping at each other and the craving is most insistent to the point that the only syllables that can be formed are “beer thirty.”

“Can people be pardoned pre-emptively? Because by the time a lot of this gets to court (if indeed it does) Bush will no longer be in a position to pardon anyone”

I am hopeful that not being in a position to pardon anyone is part of the plan…

realworld @ 131

jayt @ 114

Lots of Americans didn’t know who Scooter Libby was. A few more know who Alberto Gonzalez is. Pretty much everybody knows who Karl Rove is, so a subpoena to Rove is the beginning of a forced understanding into the thickest of heads.

Am I correct to assume that Cheney cannot be subpoenaed?

I see no reason that Cheney can’t be subpoenaed. He is not the President.

but he is the 4th branch of government.

Fern @ 129

realworld @ 123

You might be right BigMitch. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer here but there is an argument that if your impeached and convicted you are also SOL when it comes to a pardon for a judicial conviction for the same crime. Look here and give me feedback.

Can people be pardoned pre-emptively? Because by the time a lot of this gets to court (if indeed it does) Bush will no longer be in a position to pardon anyone.

Yep, GHWB did it for the Iran Contra folk right before the trial was to begin. Like father like son…..

realworld @ 131

I see no reason that Cheney can’t be subpoenaed. He is not the President.

He is not even in the Executive

Uh, one and only bone to pick

“Did you have an understanding that that the conversation was on TSP?” asked Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas. TSP stands for terrorist surveillance program.

This is not a terrorist surveillance program.

This is an illegal, unconstitutional infringement on the rights of normal everyday Americans; it is a contempt of one of the fundamental principles of law, which is the right of privacy so eloquently stated by James Otis in 1761, That a man’s (and women’s) house is his castle and shall not be infringed upon but upon due process of law.

And, for the freepers lurking, maybe you won’t believe me or James Otis, but maybe you’ll believe John Ashcroft

This is a spying on Americans program

Do you guys (FDL lakers) Rawk or what?

It seems obvious that the NSA was up to some very nasty things and they won’t fess up to it.

The national security state, CIA, NSA and so forth are pretty black ops agencies when you think about it. They do not want sun light there because they do some very dirty stuff. Ideologues can use this apparatus for anything they want because of the compartmentalization of these organization.

Sibel Edmonds saw inside and tried to sound the alarm and she was gagged somehow and I suspect it was more than civil penalties they hung over her head. They play to win.

Imagine if really skeery things were revealed that “our” government is doing. I am not talking 007 spy novels… I am talking reality.

That seems to be what they are hiding.

realworld @ 131

jayt @ 114

Lots of Americans didn’t know who Scooter Libby was. A few more know who Alberto Gonzalez is. Pretty much everybody knows who Karl Rove is, so a subpoena to Rove is the beginning of a forced understanding into the thickest of heads.

Am I correct to assume that Cheney cannot be subpoenaed?

I see no reason that Cheney can’t be subpoenaed. He is not the President.

I think that is the whole point of the unitary executive theory…to claim that they are ALL exempt.

Fern @ 129

realworld @ 123

You might be right BigMitch. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer here but there is an argument that if your impeached and convicted you are also SOL when it comes to a pardon for a judicial conviction for the same crime. Look here and give me feedback.

Can people be pardoned pre-emptively? Because by the time a lot of this gets to court (if indeed it does) Bush will no longer be in a position to pardon anyone.

yes, they can be pardoned in advance of any trial and for everything. If my argument about impeachment and pardons holds I don’t think that matters. Which raises and interesting thought. Can someone be impeached retroactively. Probably too hard to grok but it would be fun to impeach Scooter and the claim his pardon was invalid.

The words Gonzo used yesterday I believe were, “other intelligence activities”.

BigMitch @ 83

realworld @ 67

If past is prelude, the FBI is the source of fairies.

History repeats itself, first as farce, then as tragedy. (Source?)

When Reagan did the ole Conra-gate thing, it was as a farce. Or was the farce an impeachment for a blow-job? Either way, what we are witnessing is deadly serious.

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. (Marx, Eighteenth Brumaire)

perris @ 130

Fern @ 115

Would that have been around the time of the memo that Whitehouse has Tuesday (or whenever) about OVP having access to DOJ information?

I think this is the first public assertion of this, the Feb. 2006 interview. Look on page 7 of the transcript:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11373634/page/7/

no, I think it’s before that…we need a time line

realworld @ 131

jayt @ 114

Lots of Americans didn’t know who Scooter Libby was. A few more know who Alberto Gonzalez is. Pretty much everybody knows who Karl Rove is, so a subpoena to Rove is the beginning of a forced understanding into the thickest of heads.

Am I correct to assume that Cheney cannot be subpoenaed?

I see no reason that Cheney can’t be subpoenaed. He is not the President.

But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

dachoste @ 133

…[snip]

based on mueller and comey’s testimony where they don’t come out and out talking about a covert program until it was revealed at a later date, I wonder if there WAS another program in place- similar to the TSP, but maybe even more egregious…

maybe gonzo is protecting not just his overlords but the existence of this program… [snip]

This seems all but certain, IMHO. Lots of hints and comments point this way. Hey Daniel Ellsberg, can you help us??

looseheadprop @ 127

eCAHNomics @ 20

I do not understand what was the purpose of AGAG saying this. Can anyone explain whathe was trying to accomplish? Did it relate to perjury possibilities in an earlier testimony?

Because if you knew what were the things, theparts of the program had to be dropped to stop the DOJ/FBI revolt–there would no way to avoid impeachment.

It’s what they were doing that is so bad.

Any theory on what that something bad is? Because it seems to me it’s already clear that there was illegal spying going on six ways from Sunday. I’m thinking something else.

I think Gonzo thought that he would be ’safe’ lying about the gang of eight meeting BECAUSE it’s secret: remember, they are not allowed technically to say anything about these briefings, EVEN when (as in Rockefeller’s case) they believe the programs to be illegal! Not to mention the administration has muddied the waters by not giving complete or honest briefings, apparently.

Oops…

I think this is the first public assertion of this, the Feb. 2006 interview. Look on page 7 of the transcript:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11373634/page/7/

demi @ 125

eCAHNomics @ 120

I believe it was because he was sedated & his memory might not be reliable. But I didn’t get straight the story about his wife. Did she leave the room during the conversation, or if not, why not subpoena her?

It was discussed here yesterday, I think, that Ashcroft previously spoke with the committee behind closed doors.

I’d like to know who called Mrs. Ashcroft to tell her that the Abu and Andy Show was soon to appear at a bedside near her. And when he would only continue to repeat ‘ we were there on behalf of the president ‘ who sent them? Am I mistaken, or did one of the 4 Dems of the Gang of 8 say yesterday that she didn’t even remember Gonzo being at the meeting? If so, who called him and told him to hie himself to Ashcroft’s bedside?

before we assume that, maybe the nytimes needs to ask their source if there is something else in the weeds that hasn’t been revealed before

as if……

john in sacramento @ 139

Uh, one and only bone to pick

“Did you have an understanding that that the conversation was on TSP?” asked Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas. TSP stands for terrorist surveillance program.

This is not a terrorist surveillance program.

This is an illegal, unconstitutional infringement on the rights of normal everyday Americans; it is a contempt of one of the fundamental principles of law, which is the right of privacy so eloquently stated by James Otis in 1761, That a man’s (and women’s) house is his castle and shall not be infringed upon but upon due process of law.

And, for the freepers lurking, maybe you won’t believe me or James Otis, but maybe you’ll believe John Ashcroft

This is a spying on Americans program

you nail it and I like to add my signature input;

we need to start calling this “stealing our information”

that puts it in proper perspective;

“they cannot be allowed to steal my information, steal my company secrets, spy on my kids and look up my wifes dress”

Layers of lies. Can you just imagine the discussions going on right now between Karl, Dick and George. And the plotting of course.

OldCoastie @ 135

“Can people be pardoned pre-emptively? Because by the time a lot of this gets to court (if indeed it does) Bush will no longer be in a position to pardon anyone”

I am hopeful that not being in a position to pardon anyone is part of the plan…

If for no other reason than that his term is over…

Tony Snow on Hardball lying his ass off…

realworld @ 123

BigMitch @ 96

The limitation on the pardon power is that it can’t undo an impeachment. It is available for subsequent criminal convictions. IMO.

You might be right BigMitch. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer here but there is an argument that if your impeached and convicted you are also SOL when it comes to a pardon for a judicial conviction for the same crime. Look here and give me feedback.

I reviewed that link, and I stand by my earlier opinion.

The persuasive power of rejected language is limited. It seems that the rejected language would prevent a person such as AG, if he were pardoned for perjury, from pleading that his pardon barred the House from impeaching him. Of course, we don’t know why it was rejected — perhaps because it was considered surplusage.

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

OldCoastie @ 135

“Can people be pardoned pre-emptively?

I would think that the answer would be that persons could be pardoned for offenses which have not been charged yet – but not for offenses which they haven’t gotten around to committing yet.

I did not know Ashcroft had testified under oath behind closed doors. You think maybe he “mentioned” that Meuller had taken notes?

Congress should be able to find out what was going on before Comey objected to whatever it was. Their oversight can’t be limited to what the villains choose to tell them–no matter what Feckless Fred Fielding says about executive privilege.

Mommybrain @ 124

I’ve been out of the comment loop. Surely someone has asked, seriously, WTF! – why on earth would he lie about something so easily disputed – fer christsakes, Grandma Speaker was there! Did he think she wouldn’t say anything?

I seriously don’t get it.

My own personal motto, taken from Bob Dylan used to be: “Crazy? Maybe, or maybe he don’t give a shit.” That could explain Abu, too.

Fern @ 149

Any theory on what that something bad is? Because it seems to me it’s already clear that there was illegal spying going on six ways from Sunday. I’m thinking something else.

Not hard to guess–a few possibilities:
1. A much more extensive domestic wiretapping pgm w/o any apparent terrorism connection.

2. Use of wiretapping for political reasons.

3. Wiretapping begun or changed without any authorization outside the WH.

looseheadprop @ 127

eCAHNomics @ 20

I do not understand what was the purpose of AGAG saying this. Can anyone explain whathe was trying to accomplish? Did it relate to perjury possibilities in an earlier testimony?

Because if you knew what were the things, theparts of the program had to be dropped to stop the DOJ/FBI revolt–there would no way to avoid impeachment.

It’s what they were doing that is so bad.

DING

tommy yum @ 58

I remember, in some testimony past, that Gonzo basically alluded to a separate, and yet unknown, domestic surveillance program.

My belief is that Gonzo is drawing a line diffeentiating between the program and all it’s nefarious features pre-Comey revolt, and the program after it had been stripped of those features.

What I want to know, and what I think may be the worst of it, is that maybe Darth and Co did not destroy the pre-revolt gleanings and that the work of other agencies such as FBI may have been tainted by use of those gleanings to support, for exapmle, regular warrant applications.

There is a rule in the FBI that if an agent ever is an affiant on a warrant application and the application is not granted, that agent can never be allowed to testify on behalf of the agency in court.

It effectly ends a field agent’s career (at least in the field). If it turned out that affidaivts were submitted based upon illegally obatined info fromt he TSP:
a) those case would very liekly be thrown out
b) the reputation of every agent that came in with an affidavit citing “confidential sources” would be giventhe fish eye by the judges.

it would make it very very hard for FBI to get any work done.

Remeber what Comey said about the resevoir of good faith and integrity that the DOJ posessed and that if you drain that resevoir, the Dept. cannot function.

Pups, he was not exagerating

Thinkprogress has the video

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

OHHHHH … so SnowJob is Correcting Gonzo’s testimony? That should go over well …

BigMitch @ 158

realworld @ 123

You might be right BigMitch. I don’t think anyone really knows the answer here but there is an argument that if your impeached and convicted you are also SOL when it comes to a pardon for a judicial conviction for the same crime. Look here and give me feedback.

I reviewed that link, and I stand by my earlier opinion.

The persuasive power of rejected language is limited. It seems that the rejected language would prevent a person such as AG, if he were pardoned for perjury, from pleading that his pardon barred the House from impeaching him. Of course, we don’t know why it was rejected — perhaps because it was considered surplusage.

You may be right. I just think this is open. A lot hinges on what is meant by cases actually. We tend to read that as meaning the actions relating to impeachment. Back then I think they meant something more like “the charges” of impeachment. Probably an academic point but I sure would enjoy seeing it argued at the SCOTUS.

SanderO @ 76

The administration was involved in some illegal stuff at the highest levels and believed that they could get away with it for whatever reasons. They packed the courts, tried to cage elections to keep a repuke congress and would resort to exec priv and pardons to avoid facing justice.

Bush appointed his lapdog Gonzo to run the “Justice” department which used the political appointment for POLITICS.. ie to advance their agenda, and protect the administration.

The criminality is so brad and deep it is hard to comprehend. They have literally staged a coup in Haiti, spied on the UN and it wouldn’t surprise me if they had something to do with 9.11 that they are covering up. remember how they dodged the commission and finally testified in private with no transcript and no oath? What does that sound like to you?

Worst president ever ever ever.

Something to do with 9/11. Ya THINK!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

And Tweety will be amazed at the shenanigans of Congress over a bowl of Chili with this lying motherfucker.

Steve’s extreme parsing theory….

Gonzo has repeatedly said that the conversation with Ashcroft in the ICU was not about the program approved by the president (or announced by the president to the public). I think Gonzo will ultimately claim that the conversation with Ashcroft was about a different program and that the different program was an earlier incarnation of the current program.

Put another way, I think the DoJ objected to the program as it was run in 2004 at the time of the ICU visit. So Bush changed it enough to placate DoJ’s concerns and called the changed program a new program. Because the changed program was a new program, it was not really the same program that Gonzo discussed with Ashcroft in the ICU.

PeterK @ 163

Fern @ 149

Any theory on what that something bad is? Because it seems to me it’s already clear that there was illegal spying going on six ways from Sunday. I’m thinking something else.

Not hard to guess–a few possibilities:
1. A much more extensive domestic wiretapping pgm w/o any apparent terrorism connection.

2. Use of wiretapping for political reasons.

3. Wiretapping begun or changed without any authorization outside the WH.

Sorry, my comment wasn’t clear – I meant wiretapping when I said spying. I’m thinking this is something apart from the wiretapping.

The fly on the Whitehouse wall says it’s time for a diversion.

what is up with Snowjob’s use of “bowl of chili”? what in the world is that??

Tony Snow is doing a poor job at trying to answer Tweety’s questions. IMHO.
He tried to spin, spin, spin, but Matthews showed the J.Lee/Mueller clip and told the viewers to come up with their own conclusions.

From Leahey to Rove:

“Documents and testimony also show that you had a role in shaping the Administration’s response to congressional inquiries into these dismissals, which led to inaccurate and misleading testimony to Congress and statements to the public. This response included an attempt to cover up the role that you and other White House officials played in the firings.”

Yes.

OldCoastie @ 175

what is up with Snowjob’s use of “bowl of chili”? what in the world is that??

Tweety started it with a comment about how, after all this bullshit is over, they will talk about the TRUTH over a bowl of chili.

Rove/Jennings – letter, subpoenas, on Kos diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..154713/916

perris @ 155

john in sacramento @ 139

Uh, one and only bone to pick

This is not a terrorist surveillance program.

This is an illegal, unconstitutional infringement on the rights of normal everyday Americans; …snip…
This is a spying on Americans program

you nail it and I like to add my signature input;

we need to start calling this “stealing our information”

that puts it in proper perspective;

“they cannot be allowed to steal my information, steal my company secrets, spy on my kids and look up my wifes dress”

this is a perfect example of framing the debate.. instead of using their language, we should call it what it is.. instead of prolife, we should call it antichoice, estate tax instead of death tax, etc.

We — i.e. the press our Congresscritters, and anyone else out there who has a sounding board –have to focus on ILLEGAL SPYING OF INNOCENT AMERICANS. Not that the innocence or lack of it matters for its illegality, of course, but most people won’t make the distinction, so we just hammer home the fact that they have been spying on YOU. This is what will bring the house down. And it should be done in a way that is the ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ way. There is enough out there to know they were doing it. People who are told what it is will not like it, because the Right has conditioned them to the Big Brother fear, which is right up there with the terr’ists. At this point, I think Big Brother is likely to scare them more than terror.

This could bring the chimpenfuhrer’s ratings down to the high teens.

perris @ 134

Douglas Watts @ 108

Gonzo is not resigning and Bush will support him 100 percent. Bush does not care what anyone thinks of him. Neither does Gonzales. Bush is going to stonewall everything by every means necessary. Bush has no choice and neither does Gonzales.

this is not a support thing, this is a “cover your butt” thing

the president cannot afford anyone else looking at the programz magilla ok’d.

he has to stay with magilla or get an ag that guarantees to him they will turn a blind eye to what has been done

that’s the reason magilla stays

Ha Ha “Magilla”

Magilla is Hebrew for scroll, and it refers to several books of the bible, Jonah, Job, and most notably Esther. The book of Esther is read on Purim — a holiday that occurs in March and has roughly the same solemnity and some of the same traditions as St. Patricks day, to wit., getting shit-faced. The story of the book of Esther is a good one for another day, but it takes place in Iraq, and the Tomb of Esther is an important landmark in Iraq today.

I have no idea where I heard this so please consider that, but I did once hear tell there was spying on us from another country (Mexico?) and the US was using that source and that excuse to be spying on Americans. Technically Mexico was doing the spying. But maybe even the US set up the program.

Did anyone else hear any thing like that?

Shorter Leahy: You lied and we know it.

Oh, and by the way, has the Gang of 8 been briefed on these supposed “other programs”. Since they don’t think so, shouldn’t they be requesting a briefing?

Good for Watt and Jackson-Lee for prying that out of Mueller. He looks darned uncomfortable, Mueller.
I’d like to know what the spy program looked liked before it was stripped. It was stripped because of the objections of Ashcroft, Comey, et al, wasn’t it?

Ha, this asshole Snow has the nerve to talk about character assassination.

Tony Snow coming up on CNN shortly..

Elliott @ 136

realworld @ 131

I see no reason that Cheney can’t be subpoenaed. He is not the President.

but he is the 4th branch of government.

Actually, I would think that as President of the Senate, he is subject to the authority of every legislative body to oversee its own members.

Well… says Tony, it’s all about “character assassination” in the latest Gonzales matter. What ‘character’?

BigMitch @ 188

Elliott @ 136

but he is the 4th branch of government.

Actually, I would think that as President of the Senate, he is subject to the authority of every legislative body to oversee its own members.

you know he’ll tell you that you’re not the boss of him.

A “subcontractor” cut computer wires for the upcoming Endeavor shuttle flight.

Hmmm.

raven @ 171

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

And Tweety will be amazed at the shenanigans of Congress over a bowl of Chili with this lying motherfucker.

The impression here is that both Mr. Matthews and Mr. Snow contain far too much gas as it is.

JPL @ 187

Tony Snow coming up on CNN shortly..

boy, he’s a busy beaver this afternoon! wonder why he feels the need to keep talking, hmm?

eCAHNomics @ 60

do-si-do @ 44

My money’s on a little Justice fairy.

I am hoping this is the case. Would be an important indication that the dam is breaking. Only it wouldbe an FBI fairy, not Justice? Accordingto testimony, no one outside of FBI knows existence of notes.

I think Davis deserves some credit here. I detected some amusement in Conyer’s voice, as he introduced him as “another prosecutor” on the committee. Davis is the HJC’s version of Whitehouse, and he is no Regent’s alumni (Harvard Law, I believe). It would not be hard to surmise that a “cop” would make notes of a dramatic occurance in order to cover his ass, at some point. Sort of like Rockerfeller’s letter to himself. Davis could’ve just thought it might be a good question to ask. Any prosecutor worth his salt would be mulling over such possibilities, and Davis hit pay-dirt. That is to say, he might not have needed an FBI fairy for this, just some good common sense.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 59

The noose draws tighter. Of course George Bush told huge lies. And thousands upon thousands have perished as a result. Is impeachment on the table yet?

Impeachment is always on the table. It is in the Constitution, just as running a red light is always a misdemeanor even though people do it all the time. Nancy can no more take impeachment off the table than she can change the Constitution, unless of course, her initials are GWB, then she can do whatever the f*** she wants.

What it takes is an act of will on the part of Congress, and that will is just not there, and in all likelihood, never will be.

So why is it that one man can counterweigh the collective strength of the people, the press, and Congress?

One word answer: FEAR. Bush has used fear to install the imperial presidency. In this sense, he has learned well from Der Fuhrer.

Why were people so gung ho about impeaching Clinton for lying about a blow job and not Bush for starting an illegal war? Simply this: there is too much blame to go around. Every Congressperson who voted for the war has a difficult time now standing up and calling for impeachment.

The view from this corner is that Bush will escape accountability, but he will not escape history. Ironically, that is what he cares most about.

Bruce Fein on Hardball talking about Gonzalez perjury.

BigMitch @ 116

Sally @ 109

Will the Committees want to know more about the program/plan that was run illegally before the hospital visit to Ashcroft (presumably in a last ditch effort to make it legal retroactively)? Or do I have it all wrong?

Why are our public servants such as Mueller forcing their overseers to drag out information that should be in the public domain?

The argument that this secret surveillance program should remain secret will be sustained in Congress and the Courts. But I suspect strongly, that Congress has been mislead in secret about this, too. And that should piss them off.

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

emptywheel @ 54

dakine01 @ 45

Don’t knwo the origin of beer-thirty but probably similar to having to get up at O’dark thirty for a plane or whatever.

I got it from my brother. And used it for the liveblog just so the MSM would have a legitimate reason to mock us bloggers, since we were kicking their ass in every other way. They must have a special acronym for me–beer-besotted fucking hippie.

But I’ve been told beer thirty has a different origin, someplace real. It’s probably some kind of pop culture reference I don’t know about.

All I know is I first heard beer-thirty from co-workers at least 12 years ago. A quite fun place to work, except for the part where the bosses were a wee bit psycho. ;)

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

Well… says Tony, it’s all about “character assassination” in the latest Gonzales matter. What ‘character’?

Hmm. . . WH is under the delusion that Gonzales didn’t make himself look like a perjurer (for starters) during the hearings.
Sad, we should feel sorry for Tony. So out of touch.

OldCoastie @ 175

what is up with Snowjob’s use of “bowl of chili”? what in the world is that??

eggplant chili.

It effectly ends a field agent’s career (at least in the field). If it turned out that affidaivts were submitted based upon illegally obatined info fromt he TSP:
a) those case would very liekly be thrown out
b) the reputation of every agent that came in with an affidavit citing “confidential sources” would be giventhe fish eye by the judges.

Ya mean – kinda like this? (from today’s Indianapolis Star)

A U.S. marshal has filed a complaint with a federal agency alleging he was mistreated for exposing wrongdoing within the Indianapolis office of the U.S. Marshals.

Jason Wojdylo, a supervisory deputy with the U.S. Marshals, is seeking protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act after exposing federal officers who, he claims, obtained citizens’ telecommunication records with a forged subpoena, broke into residences and vandalized the property of people who didn’t cooperate with their investigations, according to a statement from Wojdylo’s attorney.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/p…..L/70726042

ok – no indication that TSP was necessarily involved, but still…

You know, what I would like to know (and then I’ll go do something useful) is what do they do with all the information they collect on American citizens through the wiretapping etc programs? What do the plan to do with it?
And I don’t mean how do they blend/frappe/sort/analyze the data – but what happens to people as a result of specific information that they glean in this way? Charges? Threats? Blackmail? Harasssment? Saved for a rainy day? ???

john in sacramento @ 139

This is an illegal, unconstitutional infringement on the rights of normal everyday Americans; it is a contempt of one of the fundamental principles of law, which is the right of privacy so eloquently stated by James Otis in 1761, That a man’s (and women’s) house is his castle and shall not be infringed upon but upon due process of law.

The case in which that quote arose had a companion case which established the right to warrants. It involved a MP in England who supported independence for the colonies. He became such a hero to the founding fathers that 80 years later, children were still being named after him. You’ve heard of him: John Wilkes.

This administration is going down. Sic semper tyrannus.

BigMitch @ 182

perris @ 134

this is not a support thing, this is a “cover your butt” thing

the president cannot afford anyone else looking at the programz magilla ok’d.

he has to stay with magilla or get an ag that guarantees to him they will turn a blind eye to what has been done

that’s the reason magilla stays

Ha Ha “Magilla”

Magilla is Hebrew for scroll, and it refers to several books of the bible, Jonah, Job, and most notably Esther. The book of Esther is read on Purim — a holiday that occurs in March and has roughly the same solemnity and some of the same traditions as St. Patricks day, to wit., getting shit-faced. The story of the book of Esther is a good one for another day, but it takes place in Iraq, and the Tomb of Esther is an important landmark in Iraq today.

I was using the doragatory referance to “magilla gorilla” because that’s what his face looks like to me

Elliott @ 190

BigMitch @ 188

Actually, I would think that as President of the Senate, he is subject to the authority of every legislative body to oversee its own members.

you know he’ll tell you that you’re not the boss of him.

707

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

Poor Tony – you’d think he’d think a little harder about his legacy and heaven knows he oughta bail sooner than later – it cannot be healthy for him to remain in such a toxic environment. Just don’t understand why he didn’t leave quietly considering his serious health issues. What is it with these Fox alumni so addicted to the worst administration in history.

nomolos @ 128

I am left wondering whether the 500 or so “mistakes” in the spying program that the FBI reported but were not followed up on were not in fact reports of mistakes but of what they thought were in fact abuses. Does make one wonder if there are not a few unhappy campers in the FBI that would love to see gonzo in the stocks.

The FBI mistake are with regard to National Security Letters authorized by the Patriot Act. Totally diffent problem from the TSP

Drudge is even saying that Abu’s testimony was contradicted by Mueller!

A Hispanic friend is thoroughly disgusted with Gonzales for betraying his roots; especially, when relatively few Hispanics gain high office in government. Gonzales has no idea he has betrayed so many and so much.

LS @ 192

A “subcontractor” cut computer wires for the upcoming Endeavor shuttle flight.

Hmmm.

Did they say ’subcontractor?’ CNN just had it as ’someone’ cut the wires.

Woodhall Hollow @ 195

I think Davis deserves some credit here. I detected some amusement in Conyer’s voice, as he introduced him as “another prosecutor” on the committee. Davis is the HJC’s version of Whitehouse, and he is no Regent’s alumni (Harvard Law, I believe). It would not be hard to surmise that a “cop” would make notes of a dramatic occurance in order to cover his ass, at some point. Sort of like Rockerfeller’s letter to himself. Davis could’ve just thought it might be a good question to ask. Any prosecutor worth his salt would be mulling over such possibilities, and Davis hit pay-dirt. That is to say, he might not have needed an FBI fairy for this, just some good common sense.

That was my impression–just good prosecutorial work.

Another nice touch was the way he waited for the vote bell to go off.

OldCoastie @ 157

Tony Snow on Hardball lying his ass off…

Gee, I thought they were suypposed to have news on that show. This is not news.

looseheadprop @ 198

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

It will all have to come out. Gonzales can’t be allowed to hide behind “secret briefings” anymore.

Tony Snow: It’s always about gotcha. President can replace whoever he wants to. We offered them to testify. We gave them 8,000 documents. They just want a photo-op. At every stage we have accommodated them. But members of the Senate want confrontation to cast stones.

Re: Gonzo and perjury –

We are confident in veracity of Gonzo. Others didn’t necessarily lie, they were just being careful, I’m not the fact witness. They can’t tell the truth, because the truth is secret.
Does Mueller ever say TSP, no. Congress creating controversy about items that should not and cannot be discussed.

@ 211

LS @ 192

A “subcontractor” cut computer wires for the upcoming Endeavor shuttle flight.

Hmmm.

Did they say ’subcontractor?’ CNN just had it as ’someone’ cut the wires.

All the work on the shuttles is done by contractors and subcontractors.

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Pelosi denied supporting it.

Jane Harmon (sp?) hasn’t.

Nancy takes Jane’s head of Intelligence Committee position away.

I’m not a math major, but it looks fairly simple.

BigMitch @ 203

john in sacramento @ 139

This is an illegal, unconstitutional infringement on the rights of normal everyday Americans; it is a contempt of one of the fundamental principles of law, which is the right of privacy so eloquently stated by James Otis in 1761, That a man’s (and women’s) house is his castle and shall not be infringed upon but upon due process of law.

The case in which that quote arose had a companion case which established the right to warrants. It involved a MP in England who supported independence for the colonies. He became such a hero to the founding fathers that 80 years later, children were still being named after him. You’ve heard of him: John Wilkes.

This administration is going down. Sic semper tyrannus.

I would say watch out for O’Reily on this one, but he probably thinks the reference is to sick dinosaurs.

@ 210

LS @ 192

A “subcontractor” cut computer wires for the upcoming Endeavor shuttle flight.

Hmmm.

Did they say ’subcontractor?’ CNN just had it as ’someone’ cut the wires.

They said “subcontractor” several times, but they didn’t reveal the company…

You know, there’s an irony to the Tony Snow appearances. I presume he booked the appearance based on teh earlier 1) call for a Special Counsel and 2) subpoena of Rove. He likely came armed to the teeth with BS about “political Democrats.”

But that’s hard to do right after Mueller has testified.

emptywheel @ 212

Woodhall Hollow @ 195

I think Davis deserves some credit here. I detected some amusement in Conyer’s voice, as he introduced him as “another prosecutor” on the committee. Davis is the HJC’s version of Whitehouse, and he is no Regent’s alumni (Harvard Law, I believe). It would not be hard to surmise that a “cop” would make notes of a dramatic occurance in order to cover his ass, at some point. Sort of like Rockerfeller’s letter to himself. Davis could’ve just thought it might be a good question to ask. Any prosecutor worth his salt would be mulling over such possibilities, and Davis hit pay-dirt. That is to say, he might not have needed an FBI fairy for this, just some good common sense.

That was my impression–just good prosecutorial work.

Another nice touch was the way he waited for the vote bell to go off.

Yeah, he was milking that moment for all it is worth. He was literally cross-examining the witness!

newspaperbrat @ 207

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

Poor Tony – you’d think he’d think a little harder about his legacy and heaven knows he oughta bail sooner than later – it cannot be healthy for him to remain in such a toxic environment. Just don’t understand why he didn’t leave quietly considering his serious health issues. What is it with these Fox alumni so addicted to the worst administration in history.

Tony Snow is not an ideologue like the neocons. His addiction is more like narccisism. He gets off on being in the public eye and pontificating on things he has no real understanding of. This is good for him, for if he really understood what he is talking about, he would never be able to say what he says.

In his case, ignorance is truly bliss.

31- I’m not crazy about the parsing, but technically and despite the public discussion, “the program(s)” are still classified and Mueller can’t really do (in good conscience or under the applicable legal standards) what Gonzales has done and gibber away with selective declassification of whatever he would like to emphasize, while relying on everyone else (including the members of Congress) to have to hold their tongue.

emptywheel @ 219

You know, there’s an irony to the Tony Snow appearances. I presume he booked the appearance based on teh earlier 1) call for a Special Counsel and 2) subpoena of Rove. He likely came armed to the teeth with BS about “political Democrats.”

But that’s hard to do right after Mueller has testified.

Right. About all he had was that Mueller never used the words “TSP”. Other than that, all he had is his typical “play the issue down” and make it appear to be nothing more than political theater.

Fern @ 73

emptywheel @ 65

I think it’s actually a pretty parallel structure to the way Scooter worked.

Scooter wanted to avoid every having to answer the question “Did Dick Cheney order you to leak Valerie Wilson’s identity after having gotten authorization from Bush?” So he lied about when he learned of Plame (July 10 rather than pre-July 8) and he lied about what he was ordered to leak to her (NIE instead of Plame) and so Fitz never got to go after the crowd jewels.

The same is true here. He’s going to lie about whether there WAS a dispute, so he’s never forced to explain the nature of the dispute, which is the crown jewels, because it is the BIG legal violation.

Plus, both Abu G and Scooter are protecting Dick and Bush. Better to have a loyal soldier go down and get pardoned than lose your general and his puppet.

Thing is though, that this is all happening out in public, not behind the closed doors of a grand jury room, like with Scooter.

yeah, ain’t it sweet?

SteveW @ 171

Steve’s extreme parsing theory….

Gonzo has repeatedly said that the conversation with Ashcroft in the ICU was not about the program approved by the president (or announced by the president to the public). I think Gonzo will ultimately claim that the conversation with Ashcroft was about a different program and that the different program was an earlier incarnation of the current program.

Put another way, I think the DoJ objected to the program as it was run in 2004 at the time of the ICU visit. So Bush changed it enough to placate DoJ’s concerns and called the changed program a new program. Because the changed program was a new program, it was not really the same program that Gonzo discussed with Ashcroft in the ICU.

DING

emptywheel @ 219

You know, there’s an irony to the Tony Snow appearances. I presume he booked the appearance based on teh earlier 1) call for a Special Counsel and 2) subpoena of Rove. He likely came armed to the teeth with BS about “political Democrats.”

But that’s hard to do right after Mueller has testified.

Yeah! And if it gets much thicker, they won’t be able to handle it at all. Popcorn time!

mui @ 200

Oklahoma kiddo @ 190

Well… says Tony, it’s all about “character assassination” in the latest Gonzales matter. What ‘character’?

Hmm. . . WH is under the delusion that Gonzales didn’t make himself look like a perjurer (for starters) during the hearings.
Sad, we should feel sorry for Tony. So out of touch.

Speaking of Snowjob … watching him on Hardball … it seems he’s aged 25 years in 6 months … is his cancer having that much of an effect?

boxer @ 218

I would say watch out for O’Reily on this one, but he probably thinks the reference is to sick dinosaurs.

Speaking of O’Loofah, in case this wasn’t seen around here yet, FDL gettin sum luv from Robert Greenwald and his Fox Attacks initiative:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..-bloggers/

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 228

mui @ 200

Hmm. . . WH is under the delusion that Gonzales didn’t make himself look like a perjurer (for starters) during the hearings.
Sad, we should feel sorry for Tony. So out of touch.

Speaking of Snowjob … watching him on Hardball … it seems he’s aged 25 years in 6 months … is his cancer having that much of an effect?

it’s painful to watch.

LS @ 192
From the AP wire story:

A space program worker deliberately damaged a computer that is supposed to fly aboard shuttle Endeavour in less than two weeks, an act of sabotage that was caught before the equipment was loaded onto the spaceship, NASA said Thursday.

The unidentified employee, who works for a NASA subcontractor, cut wires inside the computer that is supposed to be delivered to the international space station by Endeavour, said Bill Gerstenmaier, NASA’s space operations chief. The worker also damaged a similar computer that was not meant to fly to space.

The sabotage occurred outside Florida. Gerstenmaier did not identify the subcontractor or where the damage took place.

NASA is not saying more than this, because the incident’s ‘under investigation’.

Elliott @ 182

I have no idea where I heard this so please consider that, but I did once hear tell there was spying on us from another country (Mexico?) and the US was using that source and that excuse to be spying on Americans. Technically Mexico was doing the spying. But maybe even the US set up the program.

Did anyone else hear any thing like that?

This sort of action has supposedly been going on between Britain’s intelligence agencies and the NSA for years.

dreamcatcher @ 222

newspaperbrat @ 207

Poor Tony – you’d think he’d think a little harder about his legacy and heaven knows he oughta bail sooner than later – it cannot be healthy for him to remain in such a toxic environment. Just don’t understand why he didn’t leave quietly considering his serious health issues. What is it with these Fox alumni so addicted to the worst administration in history.

Tony Snow is not an ideologue like the neocons. His addiction is more like narccisism. He gets off on being in the public eye and pontificating on things he has no real understanding of. This is good for him, for if he really understood what he is talking about, he would never be able to say what he says.

In his case, ignorance is truly bliss.

Don’t forget … he still has to drink the Kool-aid … or else he won’t have his old job at Faux Noise waiting for him once Bush either leaves office or is removed.

emptywheel @ 211

Woodhall Hollow @ 195

I think Davis deserves some credit here. I detected some amusement in Conyer’s voice, as he introduced him as “another prosecutor” on the committee. Davis is the HJC’s version of Whitehouse, and he is no Regent’s alumni (Harvard Law, I believe). It would not be hard to surmise that a “cop” would make notes of a dramatic occurance in order to cover his ass, at some point. Sort of like Rockerfeller’s letter to himself. Davis could’ve just thought it might be a good question to ask. Any prosecutor worth his salt would be mulling over such possibilities, and Davis hit pay-dirt. That is to say, he might not have needed an FBI fairy for this, just some good common sense.

That was my impression–just good prosecutorial work.

Another nice touch was the way he waited for the vote bell to go off.

just listening to davis & mueller again now. davis is really, really good.

PeterK @ 149

dachoste @ 133

…[snip]

based on mueller and comey’s testimony where they don’t come out and out talking about a covert program until it was revealed at a later date, I wonder if there WAS another program in place- similar to the TSP, but maybe even more egregious…

maybe gonzo is protecting not just his overlords but the existence of this program… [snip]

This seems all but certain, IMHO. Lots of hints and comments point this way. Hey Daniel Ellsberg, can you help us??

The pre-revolt program was egregious. And it is not clear if the illegal fruits of that proagram were destroyed, or if they are being used in ways that would deeply freak you out.

Also, there was a period when FBI was reviewing whether they could do their own version of Total Information Awareness.

You may not know this, but prior to the Shrubya administration FBI was not authorized to use public databases such as Dunn and Bradstreet and credit reporting services.

I guy finacing your car had more right to your private info than they did.

After 9/11 there were a series of internal reviews of those rules. Maybe muller is afraid FBI hasa also crossed a few lines?

I think the bigger fear is fruit of the poisonous tree contamination of major cases by illegally obtained TSP products

LS @ 215

Tony Snow: It’s always about gotcha. President can replace whoever he wants to. We offered them to testify. We gave them 8,000 documents. They just want a photo-op. At every stage we have accommodated them. But members of the Senate want confrontation to cast stones.

Re: Gonzo and perjury –

We are confident in veracity of Gonzo. Others didn’t necessarily lie, they were just being careful, I’m not the fact witness. They can’t tell the truth, because the truth is secret. Does Mueller ever say TSP, no. Congress creating controversy about items that should not and cannot be discussed.

my bold.

This is what I am saying: Gonzo et al. are USING the secret meetings BECAUSE the participants are not supposed to talk about them!!!!

So the administration says “they agreed” and the gang of eight is not allowed to say what happened!

It seems this firewall is breaking down a bit though: but the proof’s in the pushback from Tony.

dachoste @ 179

perris @ 155

you nail it and I like to add my signature input;

we need to start calling this “stealing our information”

that puts it in proper perspective;

“they cannot be allowed to steal my information, steal my company secrets, spy on my kids and look up my wifes dress”

this is a perfect example of framing the debate.. instead of using their language, we should call it what it is.. instead of prolife, we should call it antichoice, estate tax instead of death tax, etc.

Repealing the death tax is “stealing from your children and giving it to Paris Hilton.”

P J Evans @ 230

LS @ 192
From the AP wire story:

A space program worker deliberately damaged a computer that is supposed to fly aboard shuttle Endeavour in less than two weeks, an act of sabotage that was caught before the equipment was loaded onto the spaceship, NASA said Thursday.

The unidentified employee, who works for a NASA subcontractor, cut wires inside the computer that is supposed to be delivered to the international space station by Endeavour, said Bill Gerstenmaier, NASA’s space operations chief. The worker also damaged a similar computer that was not meant to fly to space.

The sabotage occurred outside Florida. Gerstenmaier did not identify the subcontractor or where the damage took place.

NASA is not saying more than this, because the incident’s ‘under investigation’.

That is so horrible. Why would someone do that I wonder?

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 233

dreamcatcher @ 222

Tony Snow is not an ideologue like the neocons. His addiction is more like narccisism. He gets off on being in the public eye and pontificating on things he has no real understanding of. This is good for him, for if he really understood what he is talking about, he would never be able to say what he says.

In his case, ignorance is truly bliss.

Don’t forget … he still has to drink the Kool-aid … or else he won’t have his old job at Faux Noise waiting for him once Bush either leaves office or is removed.

Do you think he will live that long?

LS @ 145

The words Gonzo used yesterday I believe were, “other intelligence activities”.

That’s what was stripped out of the TSP to get Comey et al to give up the mass resignation idea

The real target in this Gonzales business is Rove.

Just got done watching Bruce Fein and Stan Brand(?) on Hardball, and I must say, I am now sure that the minute they advance a serious effort to impeach Gonzo, that’s when he either resigns or gets fired. This will be done to preserve the Prez’ ability to pardon him for his perjuries and naked contempt of congress. The only things that the Prez cannot pardon is Impeachment. My strong advice is: Go for the VP next, and go for the throat!

Oklahoma kiddo @ 241

The real target in this Gonzales business is Rove.

The real target is
“All of the above”

Oklahoma kiddo @ 241

The real target in this Gonzales business is Rove.

that would be good.

looseheadprop @ 198

BigMitch @ 116

The argument that this secret surveillance program should remain secret will be sustained in Congress and the Courts. But I suspect strongly, that Congress has been mislead in secret about this, too. And that should piss them off.

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Her knowledge of the program from the briefing could also likely be the genesis for her “You don’t know the half of it” on the information being hidden.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 241

The real target in this Gonzales business is Rove.

it’s like Rove is the root of all evil or somethin’

Fern @ 202

You know, what I would like to know (and then I’ll go do something useful) is what do they do with all the information they collect on American citizens through the wiretapping etc programs? What do the plan to do with it?
And I don’t mean how do they blend/frappe/sort/analyze the data – but what happens to people as a result of specific information that they glean in this way? Charges? Threats? Blackmail? Harasssment? Saved for a rainy day? ???

I’d say all of the above.

LS @ 238

P J Evans @ 230

LS @ 192
From the AP wire story:

NASA is not saying more than this, because the incident’s ‘under investigation’.

That is so horrible. Why would someone do that I wonder?

Another astronaut love triangle, maybe……

God Matthews. Senator Clinton is not the issue. Bush is.

PeterK @ 164

Fern @ 149

Any theory on what that something bad is? Because it seems to me it’s already clear that there was illegal spying going on six ways from Sunday. I’m thinking something else.

Not hard to guess–a few possibilities:
1. A much more extensive domestic wiretapping pgm w/o any apparent terrorism connection.

2. Use of wiretapping for political reasons.

3. Wiretapping begun or changed without any authorization outside the WH.

PeterK do we know each other? Or just talk to the same people?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 240

The real target in this Gonzales business is Rove.

not mine.

i want:

1) the truth
2) open, transparent & just gov.

janda @ 246

Fern @ 202

You know, what I would like to know (and then I’ll go do something useful) is what do they do with all the information they collect on American citizens through the wiretapping etc programs? What do the plan to do with it?
And I don’t mean how do they blend/frappe/sort/analyze the data – but what happens to people as a result of specific information that they glean in this way? Charges? Threats? Blackmail? Harasssment? Saved for a rainy day? ???

I’d say all of the above.

Right. Knowledge is power (they probably don’t think very hard about HOW they might use it).

newspaperbrat @ 206

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

Poor Tony – you’d think he’d think a little harder about his legacy and heaven knows he oughta bail sooner than later – it cannot be healthy for him to remain in such a toxic environment. Just don’t understand why he didn’t leave quietly considering his serious health issues. What is it with these Fox alumni so addicted to the worst administration in history.

At what point does he become part of a criminal conspiracy?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

Oh well, coming from such a trusted source…
~snort~

Bruce Fein would be a great Special Prosecutor but I don’t get to appoint him, do I?

emptywheel @ 54

But I’ve been told beer thirty has a different origin, someplace real. It’s probably some kind of pop culture reference I don’t know about.

Didn’t Joe Pantoliano say it in Memento? Not that that’s the origin.

SteveW @ 172

Steve’s extreme parsing theory….

Gonzo has repeatedly said that the conversation with Ashcroft in the ICU was not about the program approved by the president (or announced by the president to the public). I think Gonzo will ultimately claim that the conversation with Ashcroft was about a different program and that the different program was an earlier incarnation of the current program.

Put another way, I think the DoJ objected to the program as it was run in 2004 at the time of the ICU visit. So Bush changed it enough to placate DoJ’s concerns and called the changed program a new program. Because the changed program was a new program, it was not really the same program that Gonzo discussed with Ashcroft in the ICU.

Steve wins the prize!

dakine01 @ 244

looseheadprop @ 198

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Her knowledge of the program from the briefing could also likely be the genesis for her “You don’t know the half of it” on the information being hidden.

My recollection of the Rockerfeller letter is that he complained because he was being fed gibberish, and being denied the means to find out what it meant. If he finds out, he’s going to be pissed.

BushCo is NOT making it easy to finish packing up my house. Here I just pop on line to check email and see what’s happening at the Lake, and find all this. How’s a guy supposed to fill all those moving boxes?

The revolt that the DOJ folks threatened if Bush went ahead with their surveillence program over their objections seems to be still simmering. Indeed, the more Bush tries to hold the lid on, the stronger the pressure inside will build up.

Stand back, everyone — that pot’s about to blow. The only questions are who is going to get scalded, and how badly.

lhp @ 198 that’s something I have mentioned as well. Not just in her own situation as a member of the gang of 8, but with respect to things that apply to other Dems that will come out in a truly searching inquiry. It does put a different light on the adamant “impeachment off the table” from the gitgo. The thing is – it all needs sunshine.

looseheadprop @ 249

PeterK do we know each other? Or just talk to the same people?

Dunno. Maybe it’s just that great minds think alike :-). I’m in Maine (mostly), where are you?

Sparkles the Iguana @ 247

LS @ 238

That is so horrible. Why would someone do that I wonder?

Another astronaut love triangle, maybe……

Nah, that would require one of those big studly Alaskan man astronauts, and he has been fired.

BigMitch @ 203

john in sacramento @ 139

This is an illegal, unconstitutional infringement on the rights of normal everyday Americans; it is a contempt of one of the fundamental principles of law, which is the right of privacy so eloquently stated by James Otis in 1761, That a man’s (and women’s) house is his castle and shall not be infringed upon but upon due process of law.

The case in which that quote arose had a companion case which established the right to warrants. It involved a MP in England who supported independence for the colonies. He became such a hero to the founding fathers that 80 years later, children were still being named after him. You’ve heard of him: John Wilkes.

This administration is going down. Sic semper tyrannus.

AKA “Cato” and “Father of Candor” ;-)

looseheadprop @ 256

SteveW @ 172

Steve’s extreme parsing theory….

Gonzo has repeatedly said that the conversation with Ashcroft in the ICU was not about the program approved by the president (or announced by the president to the public). I think Gonzo will ultimately claim that the conversation with Ashcroft was about a different program and that the different program was an earlier incarnation of the current program.

Put another way, I think the DoJ objected to the program as it was run in 2004 at the time of the ICU visit. So Bush changed it enough to placate DoJ’s concerns and called the changed program a new program. Because the changed program was a new program, it was not really the same program that Gonzo discussed with Ashcroft in the ICU.

Steve wins the prize!

“the program approved by the president” will they try to use this to argue that Bush did not approve of illegal wiretapping? That he approved only of the program once it had been stripped of the ghastly stuff?

JPL @ 188

Tony Snow coming up on CNN shortly..

Whoah-picturing of Snowjob spinning his head off. MSNBC, CNN, I suppose he was on Faux first.

I still think that trying to nail Abu G on perjury is a shiny object to distract us.

In short: the ‘TSP’ at the time of the Comey-Mueller dash to the hospital is not the same as the ‘program the president has acknowledged’. Mueller is being very careful here.

There is a terminological continuity, but it’s best to think of the pre-Comey TSP as the bigger, badder forefather of the ‘itty-bitty snooping on bad guys’ that Bush fessed up to.

Going after Gonzo on perjury means you conflate the spying shit that was going on between October 2001 and mid-2004. And that’s a mistake. That’s what they want you to believe. What was going on was likely much broader and much worse.

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 228

mui @ 200

Hmm. . . WH is under the delusion that Gonzales didn’t make himself look like a perjurer (for starters) during the hearings.
Sad, we should feel sorry for Tony. So out of touch.

Liver cancer usually is terminal for most people within a year, regardless of treatment.

Speaking of Snowjob … watching him on Hardball … it seems he’s aged 25 years in 6 months … is his cancer having that much of an effect?

looseheadprop @ 239

LS @ 145

The words Gonzo used yesterday I believe were, “other intelligence activities”.

That’s what was stripped out of the TSP to get Comey et al to give up the mass resignation idea

Exactly. The meeting was not actually “about” the certifying the TSP itself, it was about not certifying “other intelligence activities” attached to the TSP. That is why I’m worried that the perjury might not stand. Unless, unless…they have something else in hand that describes an actual difference or an actual validation that it is, in fact, an operational part of the TSP. Whatever it was, it was recertified. I think they have something.

Good post by Lederman – “How many terrorist surveillance programs have there been?”.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..lance.html

There is some real poetic justice about all this. Rove managed to just barely, it seems, slip out of a perjury charge. You would think that he would learn to be a little more careful.

So right around the time when all this drama with the Libby case was going on (after the Nov elections) he goes for blood in the DoJ with this hair-brained scheme to get rid of honest USAs and replace them with party hacks. And given the political nature of these firings, I do believe that it was primarily Rove’s brainchild. So he goes off all half-cocked, and pushes it through, and because of the firing of those attorney’s so much more has come to light, including this business about the NSA illegal wiretapping. Without the attorney purge scandal (the least of the Bush crimes imo), there would’ve been no Comey testimony, no need to call Abu up to the hill where he could repeatedly lie, the other liars etc etc.

As in days of yore–it is not so much the original crime (the firing of the prosecutors) but the cover-up which has led to the unraveling of the Junta.

Mary @ 259

lhp @ 198 that’s something I have mentioned as well. Not just in her own situation as a member of the gang of 8, but with respect to things that apply to other Dems that will come out in a truly searching inquiry. It does put a different light on the adamant “impeachment off the table” from the gitgo. The thing is – it all needs sunshine.

this is what i have also wondered.

iirc, it seemed that iran/contra investigations stopped and/or went quiet when involvement by dems was found. (do i have that right? i wasn’t paying much attention then)

Sparkles the Iguana @ 248

LS @ 238

That is so horrible. Why would someone do that I wonder?

Another astronaut love triangle, maybe……

Given that they won’t say where the contractor is, I wonder if it’s in some other country?

jayt @ 202

It effectly ends a field agent’s career (at least in the field). If it turned out that affidaivts were submitted based upon illegally obatined info fromt he TSP:
a) those case would very liekly be thrown out
b) the reputation of every agent that came in with an affidavit citing “confidential sources” would be giventhe fish eye by the judges.

Ya mean – kinda like this? (from today’s Indianapolis Star)

A U.S. marshal has filed a complaint with a federal agency alleging he was mistreated for exposing wrongdoing within the Indianapolis office of the U.S. Marshals.

Jason Wojdylo, a supervisory deputy with the U.S. Marshals, is seeking protection under the Whistleblower Protection Act after exposing federal officers who, he claims, obtained citizens’ telecommunication records with a forged subpoena, broke into residences and vandalized the property of people who didn’t cooperate with their investigations, according to a statement from Wojdylo’s attorney.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/p…..L/70726042

ok – no indication that TSP was necessarily involved, but still…

Kinda like that, but the MArshall’s Service is a whole nother ball game. They are prison guards

What makes me very sad is that I believe the average American won’t be shocked or upset that the AG lied to Congress. They view it as a white lie.

Via @ 263

looseheadprop @ 256

Steve wins the prize!

“the program approved by the president” will they try to use this to argue that Bush did not approve of illegal wiretapping? That he approved only of the program once it had been stripped of the ghastly stuff?

That won’t fly because W approved the program with the illegal “other intelligence activities” in place for two years before the threatened revolt at DOJ/FBI.

dakine01 @ 245

looseheadprop @ 198

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Her knowledge of the program from the briefing could also likely be the genesis for her “You don’t know the half of it” on the information being hidden.

How can we get this public? Is suicide-whistleblower only way?

Fern @ 203

You know, what I would like to know (and then I’ll go do something useful) is what do they do with all the information they collect on American citizens through the wiretapping etc programs? What do the plan to do with it?
And I don’t mean how do they blend/frappe/sort/analyze the data – but what happens to people as a result of specific information that they glean in this way? Charges? Threats? Blackmail? Harasssment? Saved for a rainy day? ???

That’s what I think they are all so willing to do anyting to stop us from finding out.

Peterr @ 258

BushCo is NOT making it easy to finish packing up my house. Here I just pop on line to check email and see what’s happening at the Lake, and find all this. How’s a guy supposed to fill all those moving boxes?

I feel your pain…I’m in the same situation…mountains of empty boxes and so many comments to read…

Oklahoma kiddo @ 160

Tony Snow says the FBI Director is not contradicting the AG.

Glad that’s cleared up.

I have to wonder about the Democrats in the Gang of 8 who knew what the thugs were capable of yet kept quiet. This was not a time for secrecy.

Looseheadprop,

“After 9/11 there were a series of internal reviews of those rules. Maybe muller is afraid FBI hasa also crossed a few lines?

I think the bigger fear is fruit of the poisonous tree contamination of major cases by illegally obtained TSP products”

I think you nailed it.

N=1 @ 267

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 228

Liver cancer usually is terminal for most people within a year, regardless of treatment.

Speaking of Snowjob … watching him on Hardball … it seems he’s aged 25 years in 6 months … is his cancer having that much of an effect?

The change in appearance relates to his boner forays into hair coloring. Once he got the WHSP job, he started using Grecian Formula for Men, and his hair gradually got darker. The teouble is he forgot to tint his eyebrows & he looked really weird. Since his cancer treatment, he’s gone back toward his normal gray/white hair color, but that now looks much older by comparison.

N=1 @ 267

Joe Klein’s conscience @ 228

Liver cancer usually is terminal for most people within a year, regardless of treatment.

Speaking of Snowjob … watching him on Hardball … it seems he’s aged 25 years in 6 months … is his cancer having that much of an effect?

More likely the chemo, which can be brutal. His hair looks thinner too. One wonders why he doesn’t just quit and focus on his health–this kind of thing cannot be good for him.

Sparkles the Iguana @ 269

Good post by Lederman – “How many terrorist surveillance programs have there been?”.

http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..lance.html

I was just about to post this one from the same blog: Link
He says the President’s Executive Order last week “-

conspicuously and intentionally failed to prohibit the CIA’s “enhanced” interrogation techniques

..”

Woodhall Hollow @ 269

There is some real poetic justice about all this. Rove managed to just barely, it seems, slip out of a perjury charge. You would think that he would learn to be a little more careful.

So right around the time when all this drama with the Libby case was going on (after the Nov elections) he goes for blood in the DoJ with this hair-brained scheme to get rid of honest USAs and replace them with party hacks. And given the political nature of these firings, I do believe that it was primarily Rove’s brainchild. So he goes off all half-cocked, and pushes it through, and because of the firing of those attorney’s so much more has come to light, including this business about the NSA illegal wiretapping. Without the attorney purge scandal (the least of the Bush crimes imo), there would’ve been no Comey testimony, no need to call Abu up to the hill where he could repeatedly lie, the other liars etc etc.

As in days of yore–it is not so much the original crime (the firing of the prosecutors) but the cover-up which has led to the unraveling of the Junta.

It was the November election loss that pushed him over the edge. The plan had been in the works a long time, but when he got beat, he had to put it into effect right away, to get all the ammunition lined up for 2008. Haste makes waste.

jayt @ 217

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Pelosi denied supporting it.

Jane Harmon (sp?) hasn’t.

Nancy takes Jane’s head of Intelligence Committee position away.

I’m not a math major, but it looks fairly simple.

Pelosi denied supporting it at tha one meeting. It had already been in axistance for quite some time. That meeting was to get the Gang of 8 to vote to go ahead w/o DOJ sign off.

What about before that? RUBBER STAMP!

LS @ 267

looseheadprop @ 239

That’s what was stripped out of the TSP to get Comey et al to give up the mass resignation idea

Exactly. The meeting was not actually “about” the certifying the TSP itself, it was about not certifying “other intelligence activities” attached to the TSP. That is why I’m worried that the perjury might not stand. Unless, unless…they have something else in hand that describes an actual difference or an actual validation that it is, in fact, an operational part of the TSP. Whatever it was, it was recertified. I think they have something.

But in order for that claim to work, they might have to expose a little bit more of what the “other” program was…they might be a little too smart for their own good.

looseheadprop @ 257

SteveW @ 172

Steve’s extreme parsing theory….

Gonzo has repeatedly said that the conversation with Ashcroft in the ICU was not about the program approved by the president (or announced by the president to the public). I think Gonzo will ultimately claim that the conversation with Ashcroft was about a different program and that the different program was an earlier incarnation of the current program.

Put another way, I think the DoJ objected to the program as it was run in 2004 at the time of the ICU visit. So Bush changed it enough to placate DoJ’s concerns and called the changed program a new program. Because the changed program was a new program, it was not really the same program that Gonzo discussed with Ashcroft in the ICU.

Steve wins the prize!

and I want to clarify something very important;

the president CANNOT “approve” a program that is illegal, he CANNOT “certify” anything of the sort

the administration took a program it KNEW was illegal, “certified” the program inspite of the doj

gonzo can’t get away with “the program the president approved”

that has to be challenged before it is allowed to carry weight

emerald @ 273

What makes me very sad is that I believe the average American won’t be shocked or upset that the AG lied to Congress. They view it as a white lie.

Like Oliver North?

selise @ 271

Mary @ 259

lhp @ 198 that’s something I have mentioned as well. Not just in her own situation as a member of the gang of 8, but with respect to things that apply to other Dems that will come out in a truly searching inquiry. It does put a different light on the adamant “impeachment off the table” from the gitgo. The thing is – it all needs sunshine.

this is what i have also wondered.

iirc, it seemed that iran/contra investigations stopped and/or went quiet when involvement by dems was found. (do i have that right? i wasn’t paying much attention then)

The special prosecutor was bringing 3-4 people to trial, which GHWB preempted by pardoning them. I’m not certain about congressional hearings.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 241

The real target in this Gonzales business is Rove.

Yes indeedie.

BigMitch @ 289

emerald @ 273

What makes me very sad is that I believe the average American won’t be shocked or upset that the AG lied to Congress. They view it as a white lie.

Like Oliver North?

And plausible deniability?

Woodhall Hollow @ 282

More likely the chemo, which can be brutal. His hair looks thinner too. One wonders why he doesn’t just quit and focus on his health–this kind of thing cannot be good for him.

Don’t agree (even for him). Not a good idea to let a disease define you. Witness Elizabeth Edwards.

Ollie North was AG?

janda @ 289

selise @ 271

this is what i have also wondered.

iirc, it seemed that iran/contra investigations stopped and/or went quiet when involvement by dems was found. (do i have that right? i wasn’t paying much attention then)

The special prosecutor was bringing 3-4 people to trial, which GHWB preempted by pardoning them. I’m not certain about congressional hearings.

i’m thinking of kerry’s investigation into bcci.

looseheadprop @ 198

BigMitch @ 116

The argument that this secret surveillance program should remain secret will be sustained in Congress and the Courts. But I suspect strongly, that Congress has been mislead in secret about this, too. And that should piss them off.

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Does the G08 have a stamp at all for this. Can they actually do anything with these briefings?

Too bad for Snow that Bush values snowflake babies’ continued existence in test tubes over Snow’s continued existence.

eCAHNomics @ 282

N=1 @ 267

The change in appearance relates to his boner forays into hair coloring. Once he got the WHSP job, he started using Grecian Formula for Men, and his hair gradually got darker. The teouble is he forgot to tint his eyebrows & he looked really weird. Since his cancer treatment, he’s gone back toward his normal gray/white hair color, but that now looks much older by comparison.

You confused me for a second with the term “boner” there.

Mary @ 260

lhp @ 198 that’s something I have mentioned as well. Not just in her own situation as a member of the gang of 8, but with respect to things that apply to other Dems that will come out in a truly searching inquiry. It does put a different light on the adamant “impeachment off the table” from the gitgo. The thing is – it all needs sunshine.

THere will be a lot of casualties if this nuclear bomb goes off. On both sides of the aisle I’m thinkin’

looseheadprop @ 285

jayt @ 217

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Pelosi denied supporting it.

Jane Harmon (sp?) hasn’t.

Nancy takes Jane’s head of Intelligence Committee position away.

I’m not a math major, but it looks fairly simple.

Pelosi denied supporting it at tha one meeting. It had already been in axistance for quite some time. That meeting was to get the Gang of 8 to vote to go ahead w/o DOJ sign off.

What about before that? RUBBER STAMP!

Begging your pardon, the gang of 8 was not required to approve or diapprove of the program. The only legal requirement was for the White House to inform them.

Finally. On the front page of the Times web site.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07…..es.html?hp

Nice that Mueller testified after the AG.

PeterK @ 293

Woodhall Hollow @ 282

More likely the chemo, which can be brutal. His hair looks thinner too. One wonders why he doesn’t just quit and focus on his health–this kind of thing cannot be good for him.

Don’t agree (even for him). Not a good idea to let a disease define you. Witness Elizabeth Edwards.

I don’t mean not work, but rather doing work which is soul destroying while fighting a tough illness. THAT cannot be good for him. Elizabeth Edwards work, on the other hand, is soul-making, and is for something worthy and life-affirming. That is what I mean.

PeterK @ 261

looseheadprop @ 249

PeterK do we know each other? Or just talk to the same people?

Dunno. Maybe it’s just that great minds think alike :-). I’m in Maine (mostly), where are you?

Nueva Jork

realworld @ 296

looseheadprop @ 198

Based upon the Rockefeller letter, I think the Gang of 8 knew what it was. ANd the freakin’ rubber stamped it.

I sometimes wonder if Pelosi’s reluctance is not tied to the hit her own reputation will take if the American people ever find out what they agreed to.

Does the G08 have a stamp at all for this. Can they actually do anything with these briefings?

That’s what I want to know. I believe these briefings are only briefings. They can’t stop anything without revealing classified material.

looseheadprop @ 285

Pelosi denied supporting it at tha one meeting. It had already been in axistance for quite some time. That meeting was to get the Gang of 8 to vote to go ahead w/o DOJ sign off.

What about before that? RUBBER STAMP!

it’s certainly consistent with the evidence we have at hand.

whatever the truth is, i want it to all come out. way too many dems are tainted by their support of bushco’s policies.

LS @ 268

Exactly. The meeting was not actually “about” the certifying the TSP itself, it was about not certifying “other intelligence activities” attached to the TSP.

But the problem here is that it’s an after the fact definition.

Think of it this way: Bush fessed up to what he calls the ‘TSP’ in December 2005 after the NYT story. We know that its terms came out of Comey and Mueller’s objections. We can presume that it operated on different terms before that. So Rockefeller’s letter in July 2003 is referring to something that may or may not have been called ‘TSP’ at the time, even though Negroponte’s after-the-fact 2006 memo implies a continuity from 2001.

But the ‘TSP’ as acknowledged by Bush didn’t exist as a discrete entity in March 2004.

Stop thinking small…the leadership in congress Dem & Rep should offer a deal to Bush and Cheney to resign immediately and take their criminals with them in exchange for immunity.

It gives the Repugs some chance to get out from under and the Dems. a chance to show what they can do, end the war, healthcare, etc. In other words a double down on the Nixon Deal but offered by bi-partisan Congressional leadership.

Never happen I know, but it is what would be best for the country.

PeterK @ 292

Woodhall Hollow @ 282

More likely the chemo, which can be brutal. His hair looks thinner too. One wonders why he doesn’t just quit and focus on his health–this kind of thing cannot be good for him.

Don’t agree (even for him). Not a good idea to let a disease define you. Witness Elizabeth Edwards.

Bad karma is bad medicine. If I were he, I would resign. But we cannot tell him how to run this aspect of his life.

BigMitch @ 308

PeterK @ 292

Don’t agree (even for him). Not a good idea to let a disease define you. Witness Elizabeth Edwards.

Bad karma is bad medicine. If I were he, I would resign. But we cannot tell him how to run this aspect of his life.

If he was working for decent people we would be calling him heroic.

BigMitch @ 308

PeterK @ 292

Don’t agree (even for him). Not a good idea to let a disease define you. Witness Elizabeth Edwards.

Bad karma is bad medicine. If I were he, I would resign. But we cannot tell him how to run this aspect of his life.

He can’t quit. He would lose his health insurance. Just like every other sick American, he is hostage to his job.

Everyone who thinks Pelosi’s always trying to do what’s best for this country please raise your hand.

looseheadprop @ 298

Mary @ 260

lhp @ 198 that’s something I have mentioned as well. Not just in her own situation as a member of the gang of 8, but with respect to things that apply to other Dems that will come out in a truly searching inquiry. It does put a different light on the adamant “impeachment off the table” from the gitgo. The thing is – it all needs sunshine.

THere will be a lot of casualties if this nuclear bomb goes off. On both sides of the aisle I’m thinkin’

You are forgetting how committed the republicans were to keeping dems in the dark. Ironic, n’est pas?

My ex is in remission with colon cancer so I might be more sensitive, but I think discussion of Snow’s illness isn’t helpful.

What must the fighting, death-defying troops think who are aware of what is going on here.

1,589 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Ann in AZ:

“The only things that the President can’t pardon is(sic) Impeachment. My strong advice is: Go for the VP next and go for the throat!”

That is right on, sister Ann…right on!!! Don’t fuck around with Rove except as a path to Cheney and make the Rover know he has a quid pro quo if he gives up the Dark Man. I have been sayin this for awhile now…but the fissure between Bush and Cheney has got ta be exploited. Give Bush the next 18 months in office under house arrest and he ken keep his pardon authority for Rove and Gonzales in return for ALL the documents and testimony from all the perps.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE POPCORN…NO BUTTER!!

With all the concerns about revealing classified material attached to discussing this episode (Rockefeller’s letter, Harmon’s response that Gonzales had done instant de-classification, Mueller’s parsing, etc.) has anyone questioned the legal jeopardy attached to a discussion with a sedated man in a what we would assume was a relatively unsecured location — a hospital room?

The law enforcement community that Gonzales’ oversees has witnessed testimony like that of Gonzales many times before.

The more Alberto lies, the less credibility he has, the more and more damage he does to the Justice Dept.

In their attempts to shield Rove they are destroying the remaining shards of credibility Bush has left.

-GSD

I don’t mean not work, but rather doing work which is soul destroying while fighting a tough illness. THAT cannot be good for him. Elizabeth Edwards work, on the other hand, is soul-making, and is for something worthy and life-affirming. That is what I mean.

Nice distinction. When my personal tragedy happened, I had to escape into work. It was the only thing that kept me going. But then, I liked my job.

166/172 – I think you are making the same point on parsing and I think that is what he is trying to do. OTOH, I don’t think that “the program” was more or less egregious (235) pre-Comey “revolt” as far as the activities taking place. Especially in light of how fast Judge Diggs-Taylor smacked the program down.

I did a diary awhile back that I will probably redo/update later:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..5117/77338

(btw – the appearance I was referring to was the HJC appearance, which was not all that interesting, but boy was I set up and ready to go for the “surprise” SJC hearing later).

The short version is that I think everyone is leaving out the discussion the following kinds of “facts” (ok, things reported – I’m pretty cynical about whether that makes them facts or not these days) or oddities or speculations: a) that the FISA Chief judges were briefed into the program, b) that they expressed to DOJ their belief the program was illegal/unconstitutional, c) that the Chief Judges required that, for any FISA requests made for people who had been targeted by the illegal program, those FISA requests must be made to the Chief Judges only and that those requests could not include any information from the illegal programs, d) that the AG and/or FBI director were required to sign off on those affidavit requests, e) that “the program” reauthorization is a weird approach unless that authorization included something like certifications of compliance for something like the FISA court, so that it could continue to issue warrants based on other requests with the knowledge that it was not issuing warrants based on the illegal program info, f) Comey talked about doing a fact review as well as legal review, g) reports from a seemingly contemporaneous period of time indicate that the FISA court Chief Judge found out her directive on FISA applications involving the illegal programs had been violated and was hot hot hot, h) discussions about the Chief Judge contacting DOJ and laying down the law and threatening things (that would involve the signators on her applications – Mueller and/or Ashcroft), and h)the fact that Comey was satisfied with some additional progam mechanics layers to resolve his issues.

Tack on Lamberths recent broadside, discussing that the FISA court basically kicked out top FBI counterterrorism player for lying to the court back in his day and he has no regrets about it (I kinda thought he might be referring to Townsend?) and that he felt the court could/should/would do those kinds of things to protect itself. Then add on AGAG’s spinning to Whitehouse that the “activites” being engaged in he thought were “activities” that from the beginning were authorized.

This is overlong as it is, but fwiw.

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

Jonathan @ 311

Everyone who thinks Pelosi’s always trying to do what’s best for this country please raise your hand.

Looking around . . . looking around . . .

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Now that’s what I like — a nice, long thread to soak in.

BigMitch @ 300

Begging your pardon, the gang of 8 was not required to approve or diapprove of the program. The only legal requirement was for the White House to inform them.

That’s right: AND they were not even allowed to say publicly that they disagreed with the program. Which is why Rockerfeller wrote the letter for himself and put it in his safe.

OT, but good news. Hazelton’s immigration law ruled invalid.

Via @ 320

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

I’ve always thought there was a simple answer to this, i.e. they found out that the targets and information gleaned was being used by the White House for purely political purposes.

There’s no way the gang in the WH could resist that temptation.

selise @ 271

this is what i have also wondered.

iirc, it seemed that iran/contra investigations stopped and/or went quiet when involvement by dems was found. (do i have that right? i wasn’t paying much attention then)

One thing about the Iran Contra investigation — Congressman Henry Gonzales was the original chairman of the committee, and when he started asking uncomfortable questions about Bush 1’s possible involvement, his car just coincidentally got shot up in a drive by

truebluetexan @ 30

Good for Conyers & co! He needs to get on the tails of Karl and Gonzo next.

hey, anyone think morgan friedman would do a GREAT conyers if they ever do a movie about him?

Nueva Jork

Or You Nork, as my daughter used to call it when she was little.

JML @ 315

With all the concerns about revealing classified material attached to discussing this episode (Rockefeller’s letter, Harmon’s response that Gonzales had done instant de-classification, Mueller’s parsing, etc.) has anyone questioned the legal jeopardy attached to a discussion with a sedated man in a what we would assume was a relatively unsecured location — a hospital room?

In front of his wife?

eCAHNomics @ 318

I don’t mean not work, but rather doing work which is soul destroying while fighting a tough illness. THAT cannot be good for him. Elizabeth Edwards work, on the other hand, is soul-making, and is for something worthy and life-affirming. That is what I mean.

Nice distinction. When my personal tragedy happened, I had to escape into work. It was the only thing that kept me going. But then, I liked my job.

I guess one could make the point (and it would be well taken) that Snow likes his job too. But on a meta-level, it makes me queazy. I just don’t think it is good health-care to lie for and enable a band of murderous thugs. But that’s just me and my personal belief system.

Tithonia @ 328

Nueva Jork

Or You Nork, as my daughter used to call it when she was little.

LOL

BigMitch @ 300

looseheadprop @ 285

Pelosi denied supporting it at tha one meeting. It had already been in axistance for quite some time. That meeting was to get the Gang of 8 to vote to go ahead w/o DOJ sign off.

What about before that? RUBBER STAMP!

Begging your pardon, the gang of 8 was not required to approve or diapprove of the program. The only legal requirement was for the White House to inform them.

While I believe you are technically correct, from the bits and pieces that have dribbled out, it seems that Wh was getting consent (or at least not overt objection from them). Hence Rockefeller’s letter expressing frustration that he could not get answers that might have lead him to objectVia @ 320

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

eCAHNomics @ 321

Jonathan @ 311

Everyone who thinks Pelosi’s always trying to do what’s best for this country please raise your hand.

Looking around . . . looking around . . .

How is anything helped by attacking Pelosi right now?

BigMitch @ 237

dachoste @ 179

this is a perfect example of framing the debate.. instead of using their language, we should call it what it is.. instead of prolife, we should call it antichoice, estate tax instead of death tax, etc.

Repealing the death tax is “stealing from your children and giving it to Paris Hilton.”

that’s what I’m talking about guys great takes from both of you

Via @ 320

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

If I remember correctly, The had finally been asked to certify it and and received back an opinion from the IG saying it was not legal. They had not previously been asked.

looseheadprop @ 302

PeterK @ 261

Dunno. Maybe it’s just that great minds think alike :-). I’m in Maine (mostly), where are you?

Nueva Jork

Hmmm…. My hometown (a long time ago).

Via @ 320

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

Comey was fairly new to the dept, and did the right thing when he figured out what was going on. And apparently his case was so compelling that Ashcroft listened.

Tithonia @ 328

Nueva Jork

Or You Nork, as my daughter used to call it when she was little.

You Nork, New York, you gotta choose one.

If Abu doesn’t correct his testimony within a week, Leahy will ask DOJ IG Glenn Fine to do the perjury investigation.

realworld @ 335

Via @ 320

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

If I remember correctly, The had finally been asked to certify it and and received back an opinion from the IG saying it was not legal. They had not previously been asked.

Actually, it was not the IG, it was Jack Goldsmith.

John Johnson @ 307

No.

The last two times we let people get away without charges and trials, or pardoned them, we got them back a couple of presidents later, committing more and worse crimes.

‘what would be best for the country’ is impeachments, trials, jail cells and orange jumpsuits.

“a knife, a spoon, a bottle and a fork
that’s the way you spell New York
uh-huh”

boxer @ 333

eCAHNomics @ 321

Looking around . . . looking around . . .

How is anything helped by attacking Pelosi right now?

Lighten up. This is hardly an attack.

looseheadprop @ 257

SteveW @ 172

Steve’s extreme parsing theory….

Gonzo has repeatedly said that the conversation with Ashcroft in the ICU was not about the program approved by the president (or announced by the president to the public). I think Gonzo will ultimately claim that the conversation with Ashcroft was about a different program and that the different program was an earlier incarnation of the current program.

Put another way, I think the DoJ objected to the program as it was run in 2004 at the time of the ICU visit. So Bush changed it enough to placate DoJ’s concerns and called the changed program a new program. Because the changed program was a new program, it was not really the same program that Gonzo discussed with Ashcroft in the ICU.

Steve wins the prize!

I remember Gonzales speaking about the “program that was authorized by the President” or that was “not the program authorized by the President”….something like that. At the time, I figured that the President got wind of the fact that people were going to resign and changed it under pressure of public attention.

LHP @ 340. Better memory than me. But I think the key is this is the first time they had an opinion that it was illegal.

Sparkles the Iguana @ 339

If Abu doesn’t correct his testimony within a week, Leahy will ask DOJ IG Glenn Fine to do the perjury investigation.

Leahy is just playing with Abu the way a cat plays with a mouse (Vermonters are good at that sort of thing). Abu is in so deep that there is no way for him to clean up his testimony unless he were to have a Saul on the road to Damascus moment and decide to confess all his sins, which is hardly likely.

realworld @ 334

Via @ 320

Why did Ashcroft (and Comey) suddenly decide not to recertify? He evidently had felt comfortable with it before, if Gonzo is to be believed, and had approved it for 2 years.

If I remember correctly, The had finally been asked to certify it and and received back an opinion from the IG saying it was not legal. They had not previously been asked.

Not quite. IIRC, they had an opinion from John Yoo. When he left, Comey gave it a fresh look.

perris @ 288

looseheadprop @ 257

Steve wins the prize!

and I want to clarify something very important;

the president CANNOT “approve” a program that is illegal, he CANNOT “certify” anything of the sort

the administration took a program it KNEW was illegal, “certified” the program inspite of the doj

gonzo can’t get away with “the program the president approved”

that has to be challenged before it is allowed to carry weight

“The program the President approved” as opposed to a program “someone else with too much power” approving. Just a thought. Was the program the president approved, altered by someone else over time; causing Comey and Ashcroft to say no, therefore needing “approval” by the gang of 8 to go along anyway? I’m actually surprised they even bothered to get approval for anything they way they operate. Sigh. One can only speculate.

P J Evans @ 341

John Johnson @ 307

No.

The last two times we let people get away without charges and trials, or pardoned them, we got them back a couple of presidents later, committing more and worse crimes.

‘what would be best for the country’ is impeachments, trials, jail cells and orange jumpsuits.

Yes, Yes, Yes, andfor exactly the reason you cite.

boxer @ 333

eCAHNomics @ 321

Looking around . . . looking around . . .

How is anything helped by attacking Pelosi right now?

Just trying to be realistic.

Balrog @ 338

Tithonia @ 328

Or You Nork, as my daughter used to call it when she was little.

You Nork, New York, you gotta choose one.

Tri State Boogie?

Jonathan @ 311

Everyone who thinks Pelosi’s always trying to do what’s best for this country please raise your hand.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

eCAHNomics @ 349

P J Evans @ 341

John Johnson @ 307

No.

The last two times we let people get away without charges and trials, or pardoned them, we got them back a couple of presidents later, committing more and worse crimes.

‘what would be best for the country’ is impeachments, trials, jail cells and orange jumpsuits.

Yes, Yes, Yes, andfor exactly the reason you cite.

Yes! And let’s not hear, we don’t have the votes. We didn’t have them at this point with Nixon either. This time we need to follow through.

“The program the President approved” as opposed to a program “someone else with too much power” approving. Just a thought. Was the program the president approved, altered by someone else over time; causing Comey and Ashcroft to say no, therefore needing “approval” by the gang of 8 to go along anyway? I’m actually surprised they even bothered to get approval for anything they way they operate. Sigh. One can only speculate.

Did someone say Dick?
Sounds just like something the nefarious bastard would do.

Nola Sue @ 352

Jonathan @ 311

Everyone who thinks Pelosi’s always trying to do what’s best for this country please raise your hand.

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I thought the CW was that Pelosi could not press for impeachment because she’s 3rd in line to the throne and, well, it would look bad.

Bustednuckles @ 353

“The program the President approved” as opposed to a program “someone else with too much power” approving. Just a thought. Was the program the president approved, altered by someone else over time; causing Comey and Ashcroft to say no, therefore needing “approval” by the gang of 8 to go along anyway? I’m actually surprised they even bothered to get approval for anything they way they operate. Sigh. One can only speculate.

Did someone say Dick?
Sounds just like something the nefarious bastard would do.

they didn’t want or care for approval. They wanted cover.

I regard Snow as a tragic figure:

By MSM accounts of Snow as a person, he is engaging and decent to be around, and correspondents feel personally saddened by the fact of his poor health. For whatever reason, he has chosen this part of his time on earth to defend poor judgments, poor behavior, and the likelihood of continued poor judgments and poor behavior from this administration.

The “Mouth of Souron” from Lord of the Rings comes to mind, only with a sadder backstory.

Sparkles the Iguana @ 355

I thought the CW was that Pelosi could not press for impeachment because she’s 3rd in line to the throne and, well, it would look bad.

1) i do not buy that.
2) if true then she had no business taking it “off the table”

Let us remember that Ward Churchill has been fired for his opinions and John Yoo is still employed at a university.

Talk about a nation in decline.

-GSD

P J Evans @ 341

John Johnson @ 307

No.

The last two times we let people get away without charges and trials, or pardoned them, we got them back a couple of presidents later, committing more and worse crimes.

‘what would be best for the country’ is impeachments, trials, jail cells and orange jumpsuits.

Orange Jump suits or even scaffolds would be my personal preference;) The problem is it is going to take too long to pry the evidence out of their death clutches.

Tucker: Why didn’t the Dems in congress say anything about this if they thought it was illegal.
Michelle Lazalt (Republican strategist): Yes that question has been raised.

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!

It would have been a felony to talk about what was said in that meeting!

selise @ 358

Sparkles the Iguana @ 355

I thought the CW was that Pelosi could not press for impeachment because she’s 3rd in line to the throne and, well, it would look bad.

1) i do not buy that.
2) if true then she had no business taking it “off the table”

If #3 in line were reason for taking impeachment off the table, how could any Administration ever be impeached? Can some other D start the action? If so we should be pressuring him/her.

Sparkles the Iguana @ 355

Nola Sue @ 352

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I thought the CW was that Pelosi could not press for impeachment because she’s 3rd in line to the throne and, well, it would look bad.

That’s been nagging me recently: who wrote that amendment? Didn’t any of the late 20th Century Founding Fathers realize that either an ambitious Speaker could misuse the impeachment process for their own gain or that a timid one would be afraid to pursue impeachment becuse of the appearance it might create? What’s the received explanation for that arrangement?

Tony Snow has chosen to make a living by lying with audacity, holding American citizens in contempt and helping to continue a war that is killing people by the thousands and thousands and propping up anti-constitutional thugs.

-GSD

Jonathan @ 350

boxer @ 333

How is anything helped by attacking Pelosi right now?

Just trying to be realistic.

Public servants aren’t perfect, and we are very naive if we think they are. There are however, varying degrees of competence and values. The current administration represents one end, the anti-public servant, people who only use government to help themselves. Ms. Pelosi, with all her faults, is in government primarily to help others.

BTW did anybody notice Durbin accidentally called Obama “Osama” the other day in the hearing?

Because if the Democrats had uttered a peep, they would have been accused of aiding and abetting terrorists by the very same media assholes that are asking why they didn’t utter a peep.

-GSD

GSD @ 364

Tony Snow has chosen to make a living by lying with audacity, holding American citizens in contempt and helping to continue a war that is killing people by the thousands and thousands and propping up anti-constitutional thugs.

-GSD

and he thinks it’s the most fun game ever!

Sparkles the Iguana @ 355

Nola Sue @ 352

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I thought the CW was that Pelosi could not press for impeachment because she’s 3rd in line to the throne and, well, it would look bad.

I think that’s definitely part of the calculus. Seriously, do we think any of these folks always do what’s best for the country? I’m also hopeful that they’re doing some careful maneuvering to get impeachment back on the table, at least in the court of (mobilized) public opinion. And that the DKos diary re Conyers’ efforts to get this stuff treated as criminal inquiry gives us legit reason to be optimistic that our guys can remove most of the BS around Exec Privilege.

Michelle Laxalt (Republican strategist on Tucker) also said that in the Republican caucus there were gasps at what Gonzo said from people who knew he was lying.

BigMitch @ 360

Tucker: Why didn’t the Dems in congress say anything about this if they thought it was illegal.
Michelle Lazalt (Republican strategist): Yes that question has been raised.

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!

It would have been a felony to talk about what was said in that meeting!

Richard Wolfee should have spoken up!! The Committee could not even tell their staff! Rockefeller had to hand-write a freakin letter to Cheney! Jesus Christ!

GSD @ 366

Because if the Democrats had uttered a peep, they would have been accused of aiding and abetting terrorists by the very same media assholes that are asking why they didn’t utter a peep.

-GSD

DING

boxer @ 365

Jonathan @ 350

Just trying to be realistic.

Public servants aren’t perfect, and we are very naive if we think they are. There are however, varying degrees of competence and values. The current administration represents one end, the anti-public servant, people who only use government to help themselves. Ms. Pelosi, with all her faults, is in government primarily to help others.

Boxer – I respect you. Respectfully, I must say, “BS.”

Another synapse just fired. Re: who tipped Davis about Mueller’s notes. Remember Deep Throat was asst dir of FBI during Watergate.

Oh shit, obesity is contagious.

Nola Sue @ 368

Sparkles the Iguana @ 355

I thought the CW was that Pelosi could not press for impeachment because she’s 3rd in line to the throne and, well, it would look bad.

I think that’s definitely part of the calculus. Seriously, do we think any of these folks always do what’s best for the country? I’m also hopeful that they’re doing some careful maneuvering to get impeachment back on the table, at least in the court of (mobilized) public opinion. And that the DKos diary re Conyers’ efforts to get this stuff treated as criminal inquiry gives us legit reason to be optimistic that our guys can remove most of the BS around Exec Privilege.

Yesterday, people all over this corner of the web were villifying Conyers. Today his is a genius.

Yesterday, I suggested that people re-read the story of Baalam’s Ass.

albert fall @ 357

I regard Snow as a tragic figure:

By MSM accounts of Snow as a person, he is engaging and decent to be around, and correspondents feel personally saddened by the fact of his poor health. For whatever reason, he has chosen this part of his time on earth to defend poor judgments, poor behavior, and the likelihood of continued poor judgments and poor behavior from this administration.

The “Mouth of Souron” from Lord of the Rings comes to mind, only with a sadder backstory.

The classic definition of a “tragic” figure is a person of high nobility and heroic intentions, who falls because he is blind to his own “hubris.”

Can you tell us, in the case of Snow, what his noble qualities are, wherein his heroism lies, and what is his hubris?

Yes, we are sorry for his problems with health, but that in itself does not make him a “tragic figure.”

GSD @ 364

Tony Snow has chosen to make a living by lying with audacity, holding American citizens in contempt and helping to continue a war that is killing people by the thousands and thousands and propping up anti-constitutional thugs.

-GSD

Yes, I would think the prospect of mortality would make him rethink his career choice–but perhaps he has thought, “if I can live only a short time on earth, what would be the best thing I could do?” and this was all he could come up with.

Where do these people come from?

Michelle Laxalt, Paul Laxalt’s daughter, on Tucker blaming Democrats for everything. Bye-bye Tucker

Paul Laxalt’s tenure as Governor of Nevada was noteworthy for coinciding with the purchase of a large number of hotel-casinos by reclusive billionaire Howard Hughes. Laxalt’s tenure also marked an increase of corporate ownership of gaming operations in the State of Nevada.

Boston1775 @ 344

I remember Gonzales speaking about the “program that was authorized by the President” or that was “not the program authorized by the President”….something like that. At the time, I figured that the President got wind of the fact that people were going to resign and changed it under pressure of public attention.

No. He’s talked about ‘the program the President has confirmed.’ That’s different. It draws a line around the terms of the snooping.

The part of the program, “other intelligence activities”, had to have been Cheney’s deal, which is why Rockefeller wrote the letter to Cheney.

This is all about Cheney.

eCAHNomics @ 374

Another synapse just fired. Re: who tipped Davis about Mueller’s notes. Remember Deep Throat was asst dir fo FBI during Watergate.

Over in the comments at TPMuckracker somebody mentioned that the Gonzales memo that Whitehouse was leaked also.

Who the fuck cares about Tony Snow? Cancer or no cancer, white hair or brown, he’s an ass and he has chosen to throw his lot with Evil. Enough said.

eCAHNomics @ 362

selise @ 358

1) i do not buy that.
2) if true then she had no business taking it “off the table”

If #3 in line were reason for taking impeachment off the table, how could any Administration ever be impeached? Can some other D start the action? If so we should be pressuring him/her.

In most instances there is not a concurrent move to also impeach the VP as well as the POTUS so it isn’t an issue.

Sparkles the Iguana @ 375

Oh shit, obesity is contagious.

I think the point is: only if you think it is. Kind of like smoking and swearing. *g*

eCAHNomics @ 374

Another synapse just fired. Re: who tipped Davis about Mueller’s notes. Remember Deep Throat was asst dir fo FBI during Watergate.

I think that Davis was doing some kick-ass fishing. He is an experienced prosecutor and he must’ve been mulling over ways in which he could fish out some proof. People in high positions very often keep notes of dicey situations. So, he might’ve just hit pay dirt. Though it could be that someone gossiped about the fact that Mueller does keep notes as a general habit, I suppose.

GSD @ 359

Let us remember that Ward Churchill has been fired for his opinions and John Yoo is still employed at a university.

Talk about a nation in decline.

-GSD

Not just any university fer heaven’s sake – what was UC Berkeley thinkin’? aghhhhhhhhh he needs to be sacked.

The question is, if the Dems in the GO8
feel they were put into a impossible situation. why don’t they level with us and
CHANGE the situation such that it NEVER can
happen again. My guess, they don’t really
WANT to…

dakine01 @ 383

eCAHNomics @ 362

If #3 in line were reason for taking impeachment off the table, how could any Administration ever be impeached? Can some other D start the action? If so we should be pressuring him/her.

In most instances there is not a concurrent move to also impeach the VP as well as the POTUS so it isn’t an issue.

Didn’t know anyone was talking about a twofer. Thought the program was to do Cheney, then W.

LS @ 380

The part of the program, “other intelligence activities”, had to have been Cheney’s deal, which is why Rockefeller wrote the letter to Cheney.

This is all about Cheney.

I think you’ve got it.

LS @ 379

The part of the program, “other intelligence activities”, had to have been Cheney’s deal, which is why Rockefeller wrote the letter to Cheney.

This is all about Cheney.

LS, I think that is the key. Cheney. That is why Abu would not say who sent them to the hospital. He would not confirm that it was the President, and would not answer Schumer when asked if it was the VP. You must be right.

Woodhall Hollow @ 385

eCAHNomics @ 374

Another synapse just fired. Re: who tipped Davis about Mueller’s notes. Remember Deep Throat was asst dir fo FBI during Watergate.

If so, Davis for VP, or AG in forthcoming D Administration. It was a brilliant piece of work.

I think that Davis was doing some kick-ass fishing. He is an experienced prosecutor and he must’ve been mulling over ways in which he could fish out some proof. People in high positions very often keep notes of dicey situations. So, he might’ve just hit pay dirt. Though it could be that someone gossiped about the fact that Mueller does keep notes as a general habit, I suppose.

behindthefall @ 383

Sparkles the Iguana @ 375

Oh shit, obesity is contagious.

I think the point is: only if you think it is. Kind of like smoking and swearing. *g*

Right, IMO. Not exactly contagious like the flu…and not much of a surprise, when you think about it.

Mary @ 223

31- I’m not crazy about the parsing, but technically and despite the public discussion, “the program(s)” are still classified and Mueller can’t really do (in good conscience or under the applicable legal standards) what Gonzales has done and gibber away with selective declassification of whatever he would like to emphasize, while relying on everyone else (including the members of Congress) to have to hold their tongue.

Sorta like the OVP relying on the stenographers journalists to keep the Plame plant secret, since protecting sources is so sacrosanct.

Same deal with TSP & its variants. Do the dirty deeds behind the curtains of legit protection and, at the very minimum, it kicks the investigation so far down the road the consequences won’t sting so bad. (Like a lot of legal maneuvers kept the Plame truth secret til after Nov. 2004.)

Since they’re so f’ing predictable, wouldn’t ya think we could work around it a little better?

GDM, this thread is getting long! Glad I’m not moving…

Mary@319

Thanks. Your story sounds good. Might be worth restating and discussing in the next thread, as this one is getting pretty long.

newspaperbrat @ 386

GSD @ 359

Let us remember that Ward Churchill has been fired for his opinions and John Yoo is still employed at a university.

Talk about a nation in decline.

-GSD

Not just any university fer heaven’s sake – what was UC Berkeley thinkin’? aghhhhhhhhh he needs to be sacked.

Here’s a secret. Universities are made up of bright people. But the power lies, in some cases, with evil fucks.

eCAHNomics @ 391

Woodhall Hollow @ 385

If so, Davis for VP, or AG in forthcoming D Administration. It was a brilliant piece of work.

I think that Davis was doing some kick-ass fishing. He is an experienced prosecutor and he must’ve been mulling over ways in which he could fish out some proof. People in high positions very often keep notes of dicey situations. So, he might’ve just hit pay dirt. Though it could be that someone gossiped about the fact that Mueller does keep notes as a general habit, I suppose.

I have been watching Davis in these hearings with some admiration. He has been an aggressive questioner, and does not take any crap from witnesses. And he is wicked smart.

Jonathan @ 396

Here’s a secret. Universities are made up of bright people. But the power lies, in some cases, with evil fucks.

Not just any university fer heaven’s sake – what was UC Berkeley thinkin’? aghhhhhhhhh he needs to be sacked.

The UC Regents has always been rigid, conservative and political.

P J Evans @ 341

John Johnson @ 307

No.

The last two times we let people get away without charges and trials, or pardoned them, we got them back a couple of presidents later, committing more and worse crimes.

‘what would be best for the country’ is impeachments, trials, jail cells and orange jumpsuits.

To the Hague!

The Democratic leadership, at some point, must separate the Bushies from other Republicans. The Bushies are just a small subset, a cabal if you will, while rank and file Republicans, without numbers/names in front of me, have their careers to worry about. The Loyal Bushies are going to get theirs in Bd. of Director positions at Halliburton/Bechtal/Blackwater, list goes on and on, and various conservative think tanks, biding their time until they can stike again. But the rank and file republicans are needed to bring the Bushies to account. The dems should start, if they have not behind closed doors yet, reaching out to them.

Woodhall Hollow @ 397

eCAHNomics @ 391

I have been watching Davis in these hearings with some admiration. He has been an aggressive questioner, and does not take any crap from witnesses. And he is wicked smart.

BA & JD Harvard. But then AGAG is also Harvard Law. (Yoo too? Going to check.)

BigMitch @ 376

Nola Sue @ 368

I think that’s definitely part of the calculus. Seriously, do we think any of these folks always do what’s best for the country? I’m also hopeful that they’re doing some careful maneuvering to get impeachment back on the table, at least in the court of (mobilized) public opinion. And that the DKos diary re Conyers’ efforts to get this stuff treated as criminal inquiry gives us legit reason to be optimistic that our guys can remove most of the BS around Exec Privilege.

Yesterday, people all over this corner of the web were villifying Conyers. Today his is a genius.

Yesterday, I suggested that people re-read the story of Baalam’s Ass.

Speaking for myself, my biggest beef with Conyers has been his ability during committee hearings to effectively question witnesses. He should really hand that over to others better qualified. Maybe with the luxury of time, research and a lot of staff help, he’s helping lead a successful effort towards accountability?

Two different parts of the job is all I’m saying. And did you read PDNC’s diary? Seriously worth the read, regardless of Conyers’ individual role.

LS @ 380

The part of the program, “other intelligence activities”, had to have been Cheney’s deal, which is why Rockefeller wrote the letter to Cheney.

This is all about Cheney.

Wrong. The entire TSP is Cheney’s deal, that Bush authorized…when “other intelligence activities” surfaced over time, Comey and Ashcroft objected. I’ll bet Cheney told Bush to call Mrs. Ashcroft and told him to send Gonzo and Card, then Comey was summoned by Card to the WH to come to some kind of agreement, but Mueller is the one who spoke with Bush. Maybe Comey, Ashcroft, Mueller and the FBI guys resented taking orders from Cheney. Maybe that was part of the rebellion.

Get Tough @ 401

The Democratic leadership, at some point, must separate the Bushies from other Republicans. The Bushies are just a small subset, a cabal if you will, while rank and file Republicans, without numbers/names in front of me, have their careers to worry about. The Loyal Bushies are going to get theirs in Bd. of Director positions at Halliburton/Bechtal/Blackwater, list goes on and on, and various conservative think tanks, biding their time until they can stike again. But the rank and file republicans are needed to bring the Bushies to account. The dems should start, if they have not behind closed doors yet, reaching out to them.

Who are these R&F republicans? Farmers in Kansas and Nebraska? Or guys like Chuck Hagel?

Imagine how much attention Pelosi is going to get when she “puts it back on the table.” The Dems have a strategy here. That is part of it.

eCAHNomics @ 402

Woodhall Hollow @ 397

I have been watching Davis in these hearings with some admiration. He has been an aggressive questioner, and does not take any crap from witnesses. And he is wicked smart.

BA & JD Harvard. But then AGAG is also Harvard Law. (Yoo too? Going to check.)

Yoo is Harvard BA, Yale Law

As long as we’ve got it going, why is Conyers such a disappointment? My thought: It’s obvious. He’s a politician.

eCAHNomics @ 389

dakine01 @ 383

In most instances there is not a concurrent move to also impeach the VP as well as the POTUS so it isn’t an issue.

Didn’t know anyone was talking about a twofer. Thought the program was to do Cheney, then W.

Well, Chimp could appt a replacement for Cheney if he were removed but the appointee would have to be confirmed by both houses so timing would play in as well as the ID of appointee. I’m sure you recall the rumors that Ford was chosen becuz he could be confirmed AND that he promised to do the pardon on the resignation by the trickster

BigMitch @ 361

Tucker: Why didn’t the Dems in congress say anything about this if they thought it was illegal.
Michelle Lazalt (Republican strategist): Yes that question has been raised.

THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!

It would have been a felony to talk about what was said in that meeting!