The WaPo has an op-ed from two former Reagan Administration officials today, standing up to be counted among the many in this nation who believe that the rule of law and our Constitution are superior to the needs of any one, fleeting term of any President. To wit:
One of us was appointed commandant of the Marine Corps by President Ronald Reagan; the other served as a lawyer in the Reagan White House and has vigorously defended the constitutionality of warrantless National Security Agency wiretaps, presidential signing statements and many other controversial aspects of the war on terrorism. But we cannot in good conscience defend a decision that we believe has compromised our national honor and that may well promote the commission of war crimes by Americans and place at risk the welfare of captured American military forces for generations to come….
The Geneva Conventions provide important protections to our own military forces when we send them into harm’s way. Our troops deserve those protections, and we betray their interests when we gratuitously “interpret” key provisions of the conventions in a manner likely to undermine their effectiveness. Policymakers should also keep in mind that violations of Common Article 3 are “war crimes” for which everyone involved — potentially up to and including the president of the United States — may be tried in any of the other 193 countries that are parties to the conventions.
In a letter to President James Madison in March 1809, Jefferson observed: “It has a great effect on the opinion of our people and the world to have the moral right on our side.” Our leaders must never lose sight of that wisdom.
Standing up for the rule of law and the Constitution is not a partisan issue. It is an American issue.
What the Bush Administration is doing with its systematic disregard for the rule of law is to put the Presidency above the rest of the nation, and to declare that the President may rule by fiat with no recourse for checks or balances because they say so – to publicly proclaim themselves to be the imperial presidency, the very thing the Founders of this nation feared would occur during time of war.
If you have not done so already, watch the Dan Rather Reports on “The Constitution In Question.” It is an exceptional dialogue about the need for adherence to our principles and to the letter of the law — and the substantial damage which can be wrought in all of our names by a President run amok. Long term damage that will be generations in the undoing, the effects of which will ripple out for years and years to come.
We have work to do over the next few weeks if Congress is, indeed, going to recess. It is time we all — every one of us — stood up and let our voices be heard in the cause of liberty.
Make an appointment with staffers or your elected representatives and talk with them about the issues that are important to you, including the restoration of the rule of law. Better yet, put together a local group and go to the meeting — many voices raised at once for the Constitution carries a lot of weight, because most people never bother to take the time to involve themselves politically at all. Write letters to the editor. Call in to talk radio.
Do something to make yourself heard — and to make others stop and think about their responsibility to become active citizens. Do not let the only voices that our elected officials hear be those of paid lobbyists and Administration apologists. It is incumbant upon each of us to stand up and say that we have had enough and that we want action…now.
We owe it to our nation’s forefathers, and to all of the generations yet to come, to stand up for liberty, justice and the Constitution. What will you do today for your country?
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zunoed?
Day-uhm! and I stopped and read too…
It is an American issue. There have been many Republicans, Military officials and Historians who have been worried about the radical direction of the Bush administration.
OT
We NEED a back up plan.
What happens if all the on-going investigations
get sidewacked?
What happens if two weeks from now, the Congress adjourns and we are at the same point?
We have to plan a COUP d’etat-rat-a-ta.
We need to hire Fine and pursue this misery.
I wish Thomas Merton and the Berrigan Brothers
were around….
[Mod: We will not permit advocacy of violent overthrow of the government.]
I will of course contact the Execrable Lamar Smith and let him know my feeling on his hypocrisy and placing party over country. And his abdicating and breaking his sworn oath to the Constitution.
I won’t be holding my breath for any changes in his behavior.
“ The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”
Patrick Henry
Bay State — Count me in as the sort who thinks a coup isn’t likely. I know too many people who have too many contacts with the folks who would have to take sides with the Bushies and, frankly, most of them are as disgusted as we are (for different reasons, but still, very disgusted). It’s just not going to happen.
Bay State Librul @ 4
No, this is wrong and I will oppose anyone who advocates the violent overthrow of the US. I think you’re in the wrong party and the wrong blog and it is best that you leave. I wont’ tolerate people like you.
I’ve been hitting on this point lately;
abu torture as been claiming ‘we don’t torture” in front of congress…they need to ask him if he means “we don’t torture” using his new definition
his new difinition includes any practice that doesn’t cause death or organ failure.
that is one sick definition of torture, let me tell you
for instance, if your child is raped before your eyes, neither she nor you will loose life or organ failure yet you will both know the fulll measure of torture.
the list goes on and this abu torture guy is a nut
Gee, nothing like choosing your battles. Wanker.
noen @ 8
I’m advocating a bloodless coup…
through demonstrations, etc…
Christy – I want to thank you for the great liveblogging of the recent HJC hearings.
On another point, did you see this at TPM Election Central? Reid takes on the WaPoo!
perris @ 9
“I don’t think I remember that at this time, sitting right here but let me update the record and I’ll get back to you on that if I think it’s something I think you should know”
It does not matter what expediency the
Democrats invoke nor the genuine concern
expressed by ex-commanders of the Marines,
ultimately ‘It’s up to us’. Sadly, too many
are too complacent and too comfortable. That simply makes it more difficult (would that the fourth estate would stand up to THEIR necessary
responsibility in a democracy – most probably
will not until it is ’safe’) but it falls to those who understand to pledge life and fortune
in this task. But what better or more worth-
while endeavor could we seek?
Three cheers for the rule of law – rationality must prevail. Yes, I still have hope for our great nation…
-MS
also in today’s Post, Harry Reid smacks down Fred Hiatt.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02086.html
if I may borrow a phrase…..BOO YAH!
It is lamentable that most people do not see the danger to this nation. I have never in my life seen so many from prior Republican administrations or former officials of this administration question the integrity of a sitting president. However, we fail to take aggressive or adequate action.
The Democratic Congress must start with the immediate impeachment of Abu Gonzales and the Director of the Small Business Administration. This would send a clear message that the law must be obeyed. It will further provide a basis for intensive discovery of documents and testimony from current and former White House officials.
The Republicans would unite in opposition to the impeachment. However, unlike the Clinton debacle, the impeachment hearings would indeed serve as a basis to educate the public as to the serious attacks on our constitution and liberty by this administration.
The President would attempt to use executive privilege to block documents and testimony. The Democratic majority of Congress should simply point out that the denial of key documents and witnesses would lead in a court of law to the presumption that such documents and testimony would be adverse to the president’s position.
The Republicans would then be faced with blocking impeachment of two lower officials with solid cases against them. Let the fur fly.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
my 19-year old son asked me what would happen if Bush/Cheney declared martial law and called off the national election next year. I told him that I thought the military would refuse to go along with it and would simply wait until Congress impeached them before taking any action. Let’s hope we are not sliding towards Banana Republic status.
Bay State Librul says
Ok, that’s different. Though the phrase “Coup d’etat” actually does mean “the violent overthrow of a government” so I am sure you understand my confusion.
This is what we are up against. How do we counter the crazy right wing?
Delay: US and Israel must enjoy second coming
there is a video that I haven’t watched yet.
Kathleen @ 3
If Frist is honest, then Republicans in Congress conspired with the President to deceive their Democratic colleagues, and, by extension, all Americans.
Rummy once said he wouldn’t have a problem lying to our allies. Why should we believe they wouldn’t lie to all of us, as well?
They–BushCo and their Congressional minions–are Easy Liars, the truth is not in them, and they have broken faith with We, the People.
From The Red Nightmare
DING DING DING…we have a winner
From Bush’s ‘fire in the minds of men’, to the list of neo-cons who are former trotsky-ites, worldwide military action to enforce neo-con agendas, this is not far fetched.
All the genuflecting to the founders will not prevent these ‘revolutionaries’ from continuing their plans. They must be identified as revolutionaries, and treated as such.
linky
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0726.html
noen @ 12
I think Abu had a “linguistic malfunction” yesterday.
noen @ 19
No prob.
I’m in my 50’s.
I remember Watergate and how fortunate we
were to dispose of a similar type of
Prez.
But really this Prez is delusional and
thumbing his nose at us and democracy.
The Libby commutation was the last fucking straw for me.
I hope I am proven wrong, but our country
is in danger and, well, I am VERY impatient
You know, if you truly believe in the constitution as I do, it seems that this moment in time has as much potential to strengthen our democracy as it does to destroy it. I think we have been so inundated with the feeling of hopelessness that we have forgotten the part of this that could feed our hope and faith.
At every step of the way, the republicans look worse. There are more and more conservative folks (not needing to be re-elected at any point) who are coming forward and stating what seems obvious. This administration has over stepped it’s bounds.
There is recourse. WE the people need to do the work, and not feel resentful about it. It is our duty to enforce the rules of our constitution and democracy. I have been feeling resentful, like I shouldn’t have to work this hard. Like someone SHOULD be listening.
It really is the way it was meant to work. We really are facing a despotic leader who has shown through action that he has no respect for the rule of law, and that he has little regard for human life or loss of life.
This is exactly the scenario that impeachment was meant for. And where did it say anywhere in the constitution that it should be easy or that the American people would not have to make a very loud noise to get it to happen? Where does it say that it’s an easy and clean process?
I have changed my down trodden view and feel more willing and less resentful about the work at hand. Of course Bush/co is fighting at every point possible. He is a despotic leader. Should we expect him to behave in any other way if we radically accept the truth of his leadership??
If I am truly accepting the truth, then the calls and letters required only make sense. I don’t have to feel angry or upset that this is what is it will take. I just need to do it, knowing all the way to my toes that the process is part of fate. It’s the next required move.
Okay, I am done being incredulous about the behavior of this pres. I am done being resenful because of all the calls and letters I have had to make. Instead I will go into this day and time expecting to fight for my democratic rights.
I feel better. I just needed a pep talk and dose of reality.
Yesterday, the Bulgarian nurses and Palestinian medic were released from Libyan jails where they had been sentenced to death. One of the nurses revealed that she had attempted suicide after having been repeatedly shocked with an electrical device.
I am glad she was only shocked with such a device, not tortured. Just think what she might have done if she had been tortured?
BTW, after such “interrogation techniques” all of the nurses confessed to infecting children with the HIV virus. Too bad there is scientific evidence that the virus was rampant in the hospital before the nurses arrived in Libya.
Extreme interrogation methods don’t seem to work on nurses, but I am sure they work on jihadists…
JMOHR @ 17
I support impeaching Gonzales though as I understand it Conyers is pursuing criminal charges against him through the contempt citation. I think this might be even better than impeachment if they succeed because it means time in jail. Impeachment simply removes the offender from office and is a political and not a criminal proceeding.
here’s another reason the president can’t unilaterally redifine the terms of treaties he is not signator;
one of our most valuable tools for international relations is the ability to broker treaties for ourselves and others
once we loose that ability we will never be able to guarantee we will perform according to aggreements, nor will be be able to suppose other countries will adhere
in fact, other countries will be free to “redifine” terms anytime they damn well please
the only people that can “redefine”, or even “define” the terms of a treaty are the signators.
the president has no authority to void our treaties, that is left to congress and the other signators
once he “redifines” terms he hasn voided the treaty, he is not allowed that priviledge
I did not understand this on the last thread, for some reason. Could someone explain it to me, verrry sloowly? Thanks.
TiredFed @ 18
yes. I don’t know anything about the military myself but I have heard others who do agree that they would not go along with it. That’s a relief.
Certainly would be a hair-raising spectacle, though.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
Christy, I respect you, though I disagree with you. I do believe, however, that you are going to have to patiently wait until the next election where such things are decided. The Bush Administration gets its turn; I very much doubt the President or the Vice President would want another term even if someone were to make the option available. These are people who will work until the last day of their term to do what they see as right and then dutifully hand over the reins to someone else. They hope it will be an R. You hope it will be a D. May the best person win.
JMOHR @ 17
The director of the SBA? I thought that I kept up with things, but this is the first I’ve heard the SBA mentioned.
Have you been watching the U.S. military of late? Generals who are complete whores of the Administration, and brutes in the enlisting forces. I would not count on those guys doing the “right” thing.
TiredFed @ 17
I agree with both of you. The military would never turn on the United States, and the citizens are not behind Bush. If Bush declared Martial Law, I think it would be be summarily disregarded, and they would be arrested. That won’t happen. What can happen, as long as they are in power, is that they can get the country involved in more military actions; such as Iran or Syria. They can cause havoc, and they can drive us crazy with their non-cooperation with regard to legal issues such as we are seeing today, but other than that, there is no way they can literally “takeover” the citizenry. If they refuse to leave, they will be frogmarched out. They only have the power of words and media, they don’t have the power of the people. Won’t happen. No way.
can we impeach gonzalez now?
and move on to his bosses.
seriously, why is congress going recess during war time and in the teeth of a constitutional crisis?
this is a democratic congress, even if chimpeachment fails, they have the records of the goopers’ votes to use in 2008.
does anyone seriously think that we are going to turn Iraq around as occupiers by then?
the only wild card is some kind of real attack in the US. anything short of that–the usual hype by Bushco–will be seen through. they have lied and screwed the pooch and truly they have jumped the shark.
As an add-on to me @ 33, I read somewhere this morning that, in the services he is being call General Betrayus.
Bay State Librul @ 25
I am 50 too and I have many of the same fears and concerns that you do. I agree that these are very trying times but I really balk at advocating the overthrow of the government. We need to do this through legal channels.
“We have a republic if we can keep it,” ben franklin.
ditto the entire Constitutional structure of checks and balances. You expect some administrations to try to grab excess power. but then it is the JOB of the Congress to stand against that.
If they don’t do their job why are we paying their salaries?
Helpless Dancer @ 10
This is just their way of supporting calls for impeachment. And they are giving cover to quasi-fascist republicans who don’t want to look in the mirror. At least they have drawn a line in the sand on an impeachable offense. And Bush is one hair closer to the political guillotine.
LS, TF, CHS
I think you’veall been brainwashed. The military will do whatever it is told from the top. Cast in concrete tradition of civilian rule, so SecDef is The Decider. Others just follow orders. You’ve seen what has happened to the couple of handfuls of retired generals who have spoken out. Like a tree falling in a forest with no one around.
LibertyLee @ 32
I think I’m going to be sick !
Lee at 32 — I just said I didn’t think a coup was likely. Meaning, I don’t think it is going to happen. Not sure we disagree on that one. (But I do hope the next President is a “D.” *g*)
TiredFed @ 18
I think it’s too much to count on our military personnel actively disobeying orders when our congresspersons can’t even get enough votes to start an investigation.
I’m terrified that history will write that we lost our democracy because we couldn’t believe that it would happen.
Harry Reid also has a very satisfying Letter to the Editor in which he criticizes the Post for spinning Republican obstruction:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02086.html
LS @ 35
All they need is to cut off the gas, then people will begin to starve, and will be ready to believe or follow anything.
Every revolution in modern history at some point involved a period of dire poverty and starvation, leading to a breakdown of civil authority, that is all it will take.
Interestingly enough, a false flag attack on the U.S.A. leading to war with Iran would accomplish this.
The ‘new world order’ alarmist texts going back thirty years talk about how taking food production away from the civilian population is a necessary first step before ‘overthrowing the old order’, we’re pretty much on the cusp of that.
Yep.
One such opportunity exists.
U.S. Representative Mark Kirk (R) represents the very affluent North Shore area just outside of Chicago, IL. Kirk refuses to take a stand on the Iraq war and any of the wretched excesses of the current administration.
But instead of just nodding and waiting till the next election, war protesters follow Kirk’s every appearance, with signs “Keep ‘em safe”, “Bring them home” and the classic “Iraq War – Wrong Way” with a “traffic sign” in the middle.
That picture, of people standing on the sidewalk next to a boulevard is mighty impressive, enough so to make the front page of the Metro section of the Chicago Tribune.
That 10th Illinois district was long owned by Rep John Porter (R) a handmaiden for the Republican President and Kirk won last election by a very, very close margin to a novice Dan Seals, who lost the previous election by a narrow margin, despite being outspent 2-1.
Determined liberals throughout Illinois have either beaten Repubicians (see Melissa Bean) or come within a hair’s breath (Iraq vet who lost both her legs, Tammy Duckworth.)
There are dozens of examples like this across the nation. All it takes to turn it around is some “body time” (working the campaign) or maybe a $25 contribution.
It’s not going to be enough to elect a Democrat President, or even have a majority of Congresspersons Democratic. I think there has to be an overwhelming Democratic victory mandated to turn the ******* clock back to being a recognizable United States, which means a lawful Justice Department and rejection of dozens of laws like the Military Commissions Act and those insidious Presidential signing statements which say, yeah, you passed a law and I’m going to ignore it.
Kirk has amassed more than $1.1 million to
Christy Hardin Smith @ 43
I am pretty certain we are already under a coup
the first bush election was decided by the legacy of reagan and bush sr in the supreme court, the second was decided by paperless voting machines
as far as I am converned we are the victims of a bloodless, silent coup
Yeah, so? Nothing I can do about it. If the Republican party is determined to dismantle the republic in favor of a facist corporate controlled government, there is nothing anyone can do. After all, how many divisions does the Democratic party have? None. Power flows from the barrel of a gun after all. How cold does it get in Canada again?
Katie Jensen @ 26: Thank *you* for the pep talk. :)
eCAHNomics @ 33
Not to mention that the chain of command and the principle of obeying orders is deeply engrained – is in fact the foundation of any functioning military. Without discipline – no army.
On top of which – to violate the principle of civilian control of the military is one small step from have a country run by a military junta.
eCAHNomics @ 41
They will follow orders involving missions that they see as defending the country in overseas conflicts, but they won’t turn on the populace of their own country. They won’t.
As far as the “swiftboating” of retired generals who speak out, that again, is just “rhetoric”. They aren’t getting arrested and hung for speaking out. If something like that were happening, that would be a different story. I don’t see that happening.
What I do see as a huge danger is what is happening in the attack on our system of government. That, is the biggest danger. IMHO
eCAHNomics @ 34
Here’s the oath: The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:
“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.” (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
“I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.” (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm
The oath invokes the soldiers to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;”
So the question would be if the soldiers consider Bush as the domestic enemy subverting the constitution or if the “people” are?
eCAHN at 41 — Oh, really? Brainwashed? Gosh, that’s a first for me…esepcially considering the military folks with whom I am acquainted are both officers and grunts, lifers and more recently enlisted, higher ups, retired folks, and some high profile names as well. And to a person, I do not believe that one of them would take a coup order from this President because that would be treason. Some of these folks I have known for a long, long time — they may hold very different political beliefs from mine but, again to a person, they are honorable, decent people who don’t truck to bullshit very well. And none of them — especially the retired folks who have the luxury of being able to speak freely now that they are out from under UCMJ restrictions which severely limits their public statements when in uniform — they are very vocal about the abysmal policies and their horrid effect on the institutions they served for a lifetime.
Your factual basis for asserting otherwise would be what, exactly?
David @ 49
Less cold than it used to get.
“Long term damage that will be generations in the undoing, the effects of which will ripple out for years and years to come.”
Tom Petty said it best, “the waiting is the hardest part…” The urgency in correcting the Bushies’ damage to our country is something we all feel. Unfortunately, it’s not up to us alone here at FDL. The work is a long hard slog by many, many people including private citizens, business leaders, and politicians. It will take years.
But just look at what has happened in the past two years. I would argue that the blogosphere influenced, in a huge way, the 2006 election. And look where we are now-former Reagan officials are hinting at trying the President of the United States for war crimes. The WaPo doesn’t print editorials like that without some heavy shit going on behind the scenes.
I think we are also seeing a paradigm shift. There are some powerful players who understand that Bush and his cronies have run amok and are an extreme threat to the status quo.
I don’t think I’m being tinfoil hattey here. I just think that in board rooms and golf courses across the country, the men-and women-who really run this land (thanks, D. Crosby) have decided that enough is enough.
That combination of grassroots activism and backroom dealing will finish off the crooks in the White House today.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 54
My factual basis is watching their behavior, not listening to the words that come out of their mouths.
CHS “We have work to do over the next few weeks if Congress is, indeed, going to recess. It is time we all — every one of us — stood up and let our voices be heard in the cause of liberty.”
Inspirational words Christy. Thanks
Worrying about a “coup” is an act of self-dramatization. As CHS says: “It’s just not going to happen”.
That said, everyone here knows how badly rule of law has been eroded and even in some respects abolished. As far as the military goes, some bad precedents have also been set, even if in a good cause — namely, evidence of the military’s resistance to civilian control:
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..135124/400
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M…..7Ak03.html
Military members who fail to obey the lawful orders of their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) makes it a crime for a military member to WILLFULLY disobey a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 makes it a crime to WILLFULLY disobey a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92 makes it a crime to disobey any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be “willful” under this article).
In fact, under Article 90, during times of war, a military member who willfully disobeys a superior commissioned officer can be sentenced to death.
I mean no disrespect to any member of the military. But you really expect them to risk death by disobeying when Congress won’t risk voting for investigation?
The former Marine commandant in the article is Gen. PX Kelly – a living legend in the military, a soldier’s soldier.
The article says that torture in violation of Article 3 of the conventions is a war crime that can be prosecuted against offenders, all the way up to the president of the united states.
As I see it, Bush’s recent EO on torture carefully skirts, neither condemning nor condoning, five specific interrogation techniques – that are likely war crimes material under article 3.
In essence, Bush is saying – I’m not admitting these five techniques have or have not been used, and I’m not saying these five techniques are or are not within our policy.
For Bush, torture is not a question of morality, but one of liability, instead. Bush is saying – I’ll never admit to torture, you’ll have to catch me first, and then stop me.
Bush’s limited sense of personal liability leaves our troops exposed to the same ‘grey torture’ that Bush is implicitly endorsing as ‘ok’ for us.
In addition, our national honor in the global community of nations, today, reflects a suitably low standing due to the lack of a moral compass that the rest of the world finds shocking.
eCAHNomics @ 56
Had friends who tried to convince me to move to Canada in 1970, they are still there.
Should have taken their advice then, instead of banging my head against a brick wall here in the states.
LibertyLee @ 32
Good Snark! But you do know that KommanderGuy thinks the Constitution is a “G*d*m piece of paper”. They also have a secret plan for a dictatorship that Congress cannot see. Oh, and they can “block”, that is steal our property without the Courts.
The Bushies are insane, and therefore they are almost funny. I should also mention any speech must praise Caesar, I mean KommanderGuy three times a page. Liberty, you have praised him three times in one paragraph.
eCAHNomics @ 55
Colder in some places than others. Southern Ontario is roughly on the same latitude as northern California.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 55
None
But people are very frightened. I am. I think that is where a lot of this is coming from.
We will get there. The investigations will continue to expose them for what they are.
But brainwashed? You? Bwaaahahahahaa!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 43
Thanks, because I lived in the Vietnam era too, and I fear for the Republic in a different way than you do. I think we both, in our different way, stand for the electoral procedures that have resulted in peaceful transitions of power since the Founding. I happen to hope it will be an R *g*, but may the best persons win.
Everyone is talking about the likelihood of cancelled elections. What about the possibility of another stolen election?
eCAHNomics @ 58
A long list of Military folk who came out against the pre-emptive invasion. Many who have come out since. I was amazed by how many military people (most of my family work or worked at Wright Patterson Air Force Base) and many more Vets who attended the anti-invasion marches.
How anyone could think positively about the U.S. military after Maryam’s comments on this blog a couple of nights ago is in denial.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
Christy:
What’s not going to happen, a revolution, or King George declaring martial law?
Personally, I do not favor a revolution, knowing what will come of it from having read history. That is whay it’s so important to impeach this king.
On the other hand, the Bush family was involved in a plot to overthrow FDR, and I think they might have the same agenda going. It would not surprise me if there were a mysterious fire in the houses of Congress during the recess. For those who do not read history, the parallel is the Reichstag fire that helped bring Hitler to power.
I don’t think Bush understands that a real upheaval in the government would bring down our entire economy, nor do I think he cares.
A revolution would leave this country in awful shape, and might look more like a civil war than a revolution, and there are powers in this world that would use it as an excuse to jump us. I think the military understands that. I’m not sure Bush or Chaney do, and obviously, Rove doesn’t.
I sincerely hope, Christy, that you’re right. My own jury is still out on that, however.
TJ @ 61
They own you
Solai @ 67
With a Supreme Court that has been stacked to prevent recourse.
eCAHNomics @ 41
See my #60. Generals (forgive my layman talk) have actually used the threat of resignation to alter policy.
As bad as things are I’m not at the point where I believe these crooks would resort to martial law. Having said that those who believe our military would never go along with it are giving the military (especially its leadership) too much credit.
The invasion of Iraq was illegal. Did we see mass resignations from the Pentagon over it? No. For the most part we saw soldiers following orders without questioning the legality of those orders. This is not meant as an indictment of those serving in the military, but I cringe when I hear troops serving in Iraq characterize their service there as “defending our freedom.” I don’t buy that. In my opinion they are in Iraq, by and large, to serve the interests of corporate America, but have been convinced otherwise. So if they can be convinced they are in Iraq to defend our freedom it seems they could be likewise convinced that martial law is somehow defending our freedom
Countdown with Keith Olbermann was inspiring last night. Instead of the usual wankers, (Richard Wolfe and Dana Milbank) who soft-peddle and often negate Keith’s incisive commentary, Keith had Bruce Fein and Pat Leahy as guest commentators. They were awesome.
Coup?
Not a chance. If the military sided with the Bushies, you’d see a Civil War in this country that would make the first one seem like quail-hunting.
The NRA has ensured that there are plenty of guns that the military does not possess. Jihadists would be the least of the government’s worries.
Solai @ 68
You’ve got a point there. That remains a possibility.
Kathleen @ 71
Could you explain? I’m not following you.
As I said above, like trees falling in the forest with no one around. Theseare truly the exceptions that prove the rule.
Solai @ 68
Other big news in the testimony was the news to DOJ guidelines for election fraud cases were scratched to allow such prosecutions at election time.
Frank33 @ 64
We see things differently. I know of no evidence that the President or Vice President is less than mentally competent and if they were, provisions of the 25th Amendment deal with that. Believe me, while I agree with the President and Vice President in many respects, I was not intending to “praise” them by simply pointing out that they are mortal and I think are tired. They will do the best they can until their terms are up and then I think they will be the first to wish their successors their best.
TJ at 61 — The key part of that is “lawful order.” They also have a concommitant duty to refuse to obey and unlawful order. And yes, I think a number of them would do exactly that — because officers at West Point, the Naval Academy and elsewhere are trained to do so. Did you know that?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 54
My opinion is that any order for martial law would fracture the military. There are the ones who take their oaths seriously and then there are the ones who got their appointments to West Point from religious right wingers in Congress. Unfortunately there are a lot of officers like Boykin(sp)serving today.
[edit] When I said West Point, I mean the military academies in general. They have had 12 years to appoint their favorite sons and the earliest will have achieved field grade if not flag rank.
Kathleen:
Thank you for your gallantry yesterday!
brendan @ 72
And the results ofthat have been exactly what? We are now out of the war? Or we are withdrawing troops? Changed how-from disastrous to just really, really bad? What the military has done to alter policy is laughable.
Lee at 32. I’m still waiting to hear: Why do you dislike Medicare?
LibertyLee @ 81
what color is the sky in your world?
Fallon “Attack on Iran will not happen on my watch”
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..n-carrier/
General Zinni against the invasion. I followed what he had to say before the invasion closely.
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..12/1420241
Active duty GI’s against the war
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/012307B.shtml
Christy Hardin Smith @ 81
Christy, I’d like nothing more than to believe that this order would be refused. However, there is now an executive order in place giving the president power to do whatever is necessary to unify the country in a state of emergency. So that would make the order legal.
eCAHNomics @ 80
This is a logical fallacy. There is no such thing as “the exception that proves the rule”. It is in fact the opposite. Exceptions disprove rules. Learn how to think.
My political views are no different now than they were when I was in the military. Although, some of the Sailors and Marines that I knew during my active duty seemed likely to follow any order regardless of its nature, most of those I knew had enough of a conscience and intelligence to do the right thing to protect our country from the kind of threat the Bushites pose today. I, personally, would have acted against these treasonous leaders if posed with an appropriate opportunity, and I knew others who would have done the same.
Solai @ 68
At least we know the DOJ will be supporting voter’s rights issues this time around. So there is nothing to be worried about.
brendan @ 85
Constructive criticism and challenges are o.k. in my book even when it is coming at me.
Thank you for being brave even here at FDL it is difficult sometimes.
TJ @ 73
and, if impressions are correct, a massive growth in use of a privatized army within our own country. e.g., blackwater etc.
just what is it those people have sworn allegience to?
so are we afraid that these folks–bushco–would stage their own reichstag fire, their own fake polish border incident to create the turmoil to get support for martial law?
do we think they are beyond trying that?
I don’t know–I am asking?
eCHAN at 80 — Then there have been a helluva lot of exceptions. Just because the media isn’t giving them coverage, doesn’t mean they aren’t speaking up. Murtha alone gets a huge amount of pushback from folks at the Pentagon, as does Levin and Warner for that matter. Former military brass have worked on pushback on war profiteering and how outsourcing endangers our soldiers, among many other topics — and have testified about them to Congress, even back when the Dems were in the minority and had to put together the outside working group to get them there. They are appalled about the treatment of our wounded — and it was their behind-the-scenes constant pushing that got the recent Presidential commission on it. Where do you think Dana Priest has gotten so much of her Walter Reid information? It’s coming from the inside. Same with Ricks’ book Fiasco. Or where Robert Greenwald has gotten so much of his information on the disgusting actions taken by so many of the war profiteers.
There are a LOT of patriots in the military currently as well as retired folks who have risked a LOT to get information out to the public and to Congress. Just as there are across the board in other departments. They don’t get nearly the coverage they ought to, but they are still working very hard. Take a look just at the VoteVets site to see some of the work they are doing. And that’s just for starters…I could keep going on a lot more.
jim o’connor @ 87
While Medicare is not the topic de jour I personally do not agree with any Government Health program that is unsustainable as a matter of cost, arbitrary and capricious in its setting of doctor’s rates and financed by the forcible taking of tax dollars from one group to another. I wrote some of the computer programs for Medicare billing systems and had some personal experience in how arbitrary the system would be in reimbursement policy. I also saw the practical effect of it when the Government’s health care practices ran out private insurers so my mother had to rely upon Medicare’s inefficient treatment resulting in her not being able to see the appropriate physicians because of her status.
noen @ 89
Oooh. I just read a dispositive explanation of that recently, but can’t remember where. To see if I can reguritate it in my own words, “the exception that proves the rule” is a very rare event that serves to point out how accurate the general rule is. Your examples are, indeed, rare events that have been dismessed by all & sundry except the few of us who are really watching. The rule is that the military obeys whatever orders are issued. It’s hard wired into the self-selected ones who choose that job.
The Wapo editorial was one more example of the hypocrisy of many of the RW. Where the hell were they 4, 5 and 6 years ago when anyone with half a brain could see that cheney/bush was intent on bending the Constitution to their interpretation? cheney/bush were breaking and bending the Law left and right while the rethug Congress and other enablers were sitting by silent. Too little too late I say. Go back to your hole under the rocks.
Don’t know if this has been mentioned yet (I was out weeding the garden) In the WaJo is this gem. Piñata Gonzales http://online.wsj.com/article/…..lenews_wsj
……So the special counsel idea is best understood as a way to keep the issue percolating, maybe get a grand jury empanelled, and generally keep President Bush’s approval rating as low as possible through November 2008.
The Bush Administration should know all too well where this leads. Amid the Valerie Plame brouhaha, it let Attorney General John Ashcroft recuse himself, which allowed Deputy AG James Comey to appoint his pal Patrick Fitzgerald as a special counsel to investigate another non-crime. Everyone knows what happened next.
Thanks Christy, for this call to action.
TJ at 89 — Those sorts of executive orders have pretty much always been in place, ever since the Cold War. The current one just spells out publicly what had generally been kept private because the Bushies like to do things for effect.
Don’t let them scare you. They are bullies with a hollow core. And they know it.
I know there is a more complete explanation of it out there, but here is a quick summary.
Executive order
***BREAKING…Senate dems call for special prosecutor irt Abu..
per MSNBC.com
Arc Parser @ 91
Unfortunately, the people who were impowered to act against these people (Congress) have been late to the party.
It would seem to me, that any department who opposed the Congress would face a gradual defunding. And that includes the “department of justice” I don’t know the actual mechanism for disbursement, but doesn’t Congress have to approve the money to operate the other two branches.
It also seems to me that another “stolen” election (if it is a tie) would go where it’s supposed to go, into the congress, not into the courts….or am I missing something in my reading of the Constitution.
I am totally with everything Christy had to say in this post and have lived my adult life in line with what she said. If we as citizens do not use every possible means set up for us in the constiution to challenge the powers that be (some of them we elected) by lobbying, calling, visiting our reps, petitioning, protesting, etc. Then in some way we have ourselves to blame. We know they are often not listening but the pressure is becoming overwhelming and while sometimes exhausting, time consuming we need to keep the pressure on. I am with you Christy.
Now after exhausting the means set up for us to be vigilant are used…?? Canada, Costa Rica? I consider joining the ex-patriots
I think that one thing that people forget is the while Bush is indeed very dangerous his power is based on lies. And one thing that you see happen time and again with such webs of lies is that they unravel very fast. All it takes is for Bush to overstep or make one mistake and everything will quickly unravel before his very eyes.
The course that Conyers is on is very likely to push Bush to make that mistake. When it does everything that he has done will fall apart, everything.
Blackwater scares me. And scared those in NOlA a coupla summers ago.
TiredFed @ 18
The problem is that we are sliding towards Banana Republic status … BushCo is in charge because of those farcical elections in Florida and Ohio.
oddmommy @ 31
Certainly would be a hair-raising spectacle, though.
One thing that is drummed into junior officers is the idea that they are not required to carry out illegal orders. At least, it has been drilled thoroughly into Lt. Countertenor’s head — knowing the military, I’m certain he’s not an exception. That’s true regardless of who issues them (including, but not limited to the Dim Son himself.) Senior officers (colonels, etc) were junior officers once, and got the same indoctrination. If Bush called out the military to stop the ‘08 elections, I really believe they’d stay home.
BC
RockPaperScizzors @ 6
DING!
peterboy @ 95
I don’t mean this as a disrespectful answer….but come on, of course they would. They are beyond nothing that Rove might think of. “Will no one rid me of this priest?”
Trotsky defines the “revolutionary moment” in the 1917 Bolshevik takeover as that moment when the soldiers looked across at the citizens and realized that their lot was with them rather than the ruling class.
We must not get to that point! We must reread the revolutionary document called The Declaration of Independence to see the threat to our rule of law engendered by this lawless regime.
Or were they National Guard in NOLA?
LibertyLee @ 67
Hey you can’t have it both ways
If Leahy is worried, then I’m worried.
More on martial law
“One of the few to complain, Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, D-Vt., warned that the measure virtually invites the White House to declare federal martial law. … It ’subverts solid, longstanding posse comitatus statutes that limit the military’s involvement in law enforcement, thereby making it easier for the President to declare martial law,’ he said in remarks submitted to the Congressional Record on Sept. 29.”
LS @ 53
They won’t? I wouldn’t wager on that…
World War I vets were fired on in the streets of Washington, D.C. by the Army when they staged a protest over pensions and benefits, IIRC (1920s?).
The whole occupation is an atrocity in the making, and ongoing, and past…you’d think we’d learn. Situations like the cluster-fuck we call the Middle East breed sick activities by otherwise normal people pushed to the brink. Never-mind how far things will go when the people involved are psychos, like Haditha. I’ve seen way too many war-crimes, one of my first memories is the My Lai Massacre.
I forwarded the link to this editorial in the Wapoo to two of my most conservative friends.
I am getting to a point of departure with these people.
You either support America or you support George W. Bush and his criminal network of government destroying lackeys.
You are either with him or against America.
-GSD
noen @ 89
I stand corrected. I did not use the phrase “eception that proves the rule” in the correct way, nor did I remember the accurate explanation. Here is is:
from http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-exc1.htm
Still, I stand by my explanation that the military objectors are rare (i.e., a small % of total military) and have had very little influence on policy, Murtha included.
LibertyLee @ 97
I am disabled and on medicare so gee thanks for throwing me out one the street [edited by mod].
[Mod Note; Pleaase do not insult other commenters. Thank you.]
Sort of OT, but this IS the topic this week, mostly….I found some interesting info on contempt and censure at the American Constitution Society blog:
linky
GSD @ 118
IF you are with him you are against America
I would encourage all to look up the psychology of the alcoholic, and then try to tell me that we don’t have a drunk driving the bus.
TJ @ 90
I think you put your finger on the “trigger” so to speak. The question is whether the EO was done in “bad faith” or “good faith”. Was the EO done in order to have laws on the books for an intentionally planned “emergency” in order to execute a coup; or was it done innocently to prepare for governmental order for an emergency that could arise? In either case, in a state of emergency, the military would be invoked and told to follow the President’s orders. In the case of a domestic emergency, they would, unless they thought it was a coup. That is a scary scenario. I don’t know the answer.
Christy at 97 so many military organizations against this war, some before, some after. You are right about the media very seldom giving them the coverage they deserve. Many examples of this.
I so appreciate Dana Priest reporting (one of the best). But I must admit the very first mainstreamer that I saw go into Walter Reed (several years ago) and do a (I believe a week) of coverage on wounded soldiers returning was Chris Matthews at Hardball. After spending a great deal of time in Walter Reed I saw Matthews temperature rise about how he and the majority of the MSM had been duped.
noen @ 91
You misunderstand the word prove in this phrase. It means test – exceptions test rules, and thus prove them.
Kathleen @ 106
If you really want to be helpful, please consider not hijacking the threads with a*p*c every single day. We need to focus on other more important things right now. Thank you for considering this suggestion.
TJ at 113 — I’m not saying we shouldn’t watch them, ask questions about it, and bring it into the sunlight where it is possible to do so. But I am saying that it would require a lot more control and coordination than I think they could successfully manage — because a lot of the folks who would have to knuckle under and go along with it simply wouldn’t.
noen — I can understand why that would be a very personal issue for you, but don’t call other commenters names, whether you disagree with them or not. Thanks.
noen @ 116
I think you both have solid points.
Kathleen @ 125
‘duped’ = turning a blind eye until forced to look
Why is it that only the Geneva Conventions appear to exist? Why does EVERYONE forget a much broader, all-encompassing set of Conventions to which we are a signatory? I speak of the CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE
and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment. IT EXISTS PEOPLE! It goes further than the Geneva Conventions and it applies across the board, without any possibility of exception, to ALL prisoners regardless of where they were taken or why. It makes no distinction between military or civilian, legal vs illegal combatant. It simply applies to ALL prisoners held.
Why is this ignored while all focus is on Geneva, which can and is twisted and ripped based on weasel words about legal vs illegal PWs. It seems very convenient that not only the Bush Admin, but these GOPer military types AND the Dems (and bloggers) ignore the bigger, broader, legally binding Conventions against Torture. It is as binding as Geneva ever was or is! It is the Law of the Land, as per the Constitution (just like Geneva). Yet it is ignored…why is that?
Bush and Rove and Cheney are not beyond any conduct.
Fortunately this is not November 2001.
Bush and his junta have pushed too far and they may try something but they can’t get away with it.
There is too much ill will, they are too far into a corner.
-GSD
P.S. Frederick of Hollywood is already sucking pondwater from his ass and he hasn’t even announced yet.
Breaking…
Senate to request SI to investigate the sleezebag Abu …
eCAHNomics @ 119
I still call BS. You are quoting what? Medival thinkers????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
[Mod Note; Pleaase do not insult other commenters. Thank you.]
Brisingamen @ 117
I’m talking about on a complete national scale. You are quite right, and let’s not forget Kent, Ohio.
LibertyLee @ 82
I will keep this polite. But seriously, anyone who uses war as a first resort, rather than last resort, is insane. Otherwise I am amused, they are soooo… tired. I feel their pain. It is hard work destroying democracy, even with David Broder’s help.
It’s interesting that a “violent” overthrow cannot be condoned to counter this Administration’s stealthy overthrow of our democracy.
I don’t have faith the military Bush has put in place will object to a Bush coup. They are at the top of the Bush heap.
We need Reid-like letters to newspaper editors every time the facts are wrong. Every time.
Solai @ 104
Yowser give us hope
Mojo @ 135
Paging Patrick Fitzgerald…your nation needs you again.
Hey, noen. I love you too.
nomolos @ 122
You are either for America or for Bush. You can’t be both.
*Nevermind
It sounds like a growing cacophony of Americans of all stripes including the far, far, right stripes are pulling out of the Bush tent of lies.
-GSD
Christy Hardin Smith @ 129
Not a lot of examples of this
Christy Hardin Smith @ 129
Ok, sorry.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 129
I respectfully disagree. The legislation enabling concentration camps and slave labor and total control of the media (including the internet…buh bye FDL) have been in place since 1979. The people who don’t want to go to the camps (which have already been set up) will go along. The Germans did. Many of them were willingly, but most of them, because they were powerless to do anything.
It always comes down to whether or not we are fortunate enough to have good people in the right places at the right time. In Watergate, we did. In Iran/Contra, we did not.
This time, we do not yet know. However, put Sam Erwin from the Watergate days on the current Senate Judiciary Committee facing AGAG. Let AGAG say, “All I can say is that we were there on behalf of the President of the Unites States.” Does Sam look down, look to one side and the other, does Sam’s expression say, “C’mon, somebody help me out here”? No. Jowls tremble, the table vibrates, waves of carpet rise in a crescendo, and, OMG, AGAG is flat on his back and he has lost his hearing: Sam knows who he is, he has a sense of his own dignity, he knows the dignity of the institution of which he is the caretaker of the moment, and he is convinced of the dignity of The People, and Sam has just made that situation clear!
Did these Senators do that? They did not. They let themselves appear as chumps. Water runs in their veins, not blood. For dignity is out of style.
For the first time in a long while, I feel inspired: last night, I watched the Gonzales hearing from start to finish. It’s all there, from concerns about the rule of law & the Imperial Presidency, to torture & the Geneva conventions.
Gonzales is their last line of defense, he’s out of ammo, and the heavy artillery is just now being rolled into place.
I will try to remain dignified, as the walls come crumbling down on this corrupt little kingdom. Or maybe I won’t.
I have been preaching to anyone who will listen that this is an American issue, and not a partisan one. I have thrown this at Senators Cornyn and Hutchison in correspondence, but continue to get stonewalled. Of course, they are probably their standard letters sent in response to various concerns.
I would give anything to know, though, whether or not they are listening. Maybe the Kook-Aid wipes out too many of their brain cells and they can no longer think for themselves…
LS @ 136
Thanks — now “four dead in O-HI-O” is going to haunt me the rest of the day…
nomolos @ 122
Oops. You are either for America or for George W. Bush.
Now back to regularly scheduled programming.
I haven’t had enough coffee, it seemed so clearly written at the time!
-GSD
Fern @ 52
I recently lost all of my bookmarks so I don’t have links readily available atm. However I do recall presidential directives and hidden entries in a bill or two where the president has increased authority now re posse comitatus .. Also it is not just the military we have to be concerned about it’s the police and National Guard who will all be told they are now federalized and working under/for the presidential.. also this could be in place much more than we know.
After all we know the patriot act made bank tellers and librarians agents of the state, it’s no longer difficult to imagine many others may be working under new directives which they cannot talk about.
Food for Thought: Fear and isolation
The above link is to an 18 year old young man’s travel journal as he rides his bike to Anchorage, AK from Denver, CO. It’s inspiring that a such young kid really gets what is going on in the world. Read it and realize that there is still hope.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
Many sane Republicans and Military officials have been terrified for years about the radical Bush administration. If there were going to be a coup it might be the military taking Bush/Cheney cabal out
P J Evans @ 126
Total nonsense. Exceptions disprove hypothesized rules.
[Mod Note; Pleaase do not insult other commenters. Thank you.]
One other thing, noen. If you think Medieval times are laughable, then you must agree with AGAG et al that habeas corpus is quaint.
GSD @ 149
Aha, I drink tea…it keeps me sooo clear headed :)
TJ @ 115
It runs in the Bush family, this may be common knowledge, but it was new to me. The BBC did a report on Prescott Bush’s involvement in the plans to overthrow the FDR Presidency in 1933 and install a fascist dictatorship.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/d…..0723.shtml
The “White House Putsch”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
Praedor Atrebates @ 131
could simply be a matter of the geneva Conventions having a higher public profile and aura of legitimacy…but good point.
folks here are aware of plenty of the more obscure wrinkles of Govt and the law, it is odd that the Conventions against Torture aren’t brought up more.
eCAHNomics @ 154
No, I think that Medieval science and logic are laughable.
Sally @ 137
Violent overthrows are reserved for very special times. So far, the economy is doing well enough that we all have jobs, and most of us have cars and other luxuries. Wait till those start disapearing, then you’ll see a violent revolution. Right now is not the time.
Steve-AR @ 155
A putz putsch?
Sally @ 139
Says who ?
Unlike Pelosi a lot of Americans take NOTHING off the table to defend our country..
Steve-AR @ 153
prescott was a financial and idiological supporter of adolf hitler
he loved the idea of fascism and with no doubt, so do the corporatists in office
Revolution will truly begin when the kids realize they can’t just get new I-Pods, and I-Phones, and other “stuff”. /s (sort of)
As was mentioned above – LINK
Steve-AR @ 157
Thank goodness Leahy is worried.
About the economy.Bush’s last best chance is buckling under the sub-prime fiasco.
-GSD
The Republicans are merely following the MO they’ve had since Nixon. The President is the law. How long does it take America to wake up to the fact that the Republican Party is anti-democratic, anti-Constitution. From Watergate to Iran Contra to the current incarnation they are about subverting democracy and the Constitution. They politcize the DOJ, stack the Supreme Court with Federalist Society members, reward their corporate friends. It’s time to say out loud that Republicans are anti-American.
People, I’m noting that the comments are rather testy today. We are all feeling a lot of pressure these days because there are a lot of weighty issues being discussed and debated — but don’t take it out on each other in the comments. Period.
There is a reason Billmon shut off his comments after a while — please don’t make Jane have to think about that.
eCAHNomics @ 85
You didn’t read the links. They have to do with Iran.
noen @ 91
“The exception proves the rule” uses the word “prove” in its archaic (and actually, original) meaning of test. So, in modern english, we ought to say, “The exception tests the rule.”
Bonus pedant: We still occasionally use the word prove in its original sense, when we refer to “Proving Grounds,” which are facilities where things get tested.
BC — why do I walk around with a head full of this stuff?
GSD @ 166
As we speak…stockmarket down 216 points and falling.
behindthefall at 145; I was 11 years old and I still remember the gravitas of Sam Ervin. In particular his saying to one thickheaded, rethug witness (Haldeman?) with that beautiful, thick, southern drawl, “Sir, I understand the English language, it’s my mother tongue.”
Christy Hardin Smith @ 163
Is he still about? I took his site off my bookmarks because he seemed to disappear (again) not too long ago. Has he returned?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 168
I’m sorry, I promise to do better.
These are trying times and everyone is scared and with good reason too.
I miss Billmon.
(EPU-ed. Don’t know if this is still relevant, but I cannot get out of my mind how insolent and contemptuous AGAG was, and how the Senators failed, by my measuring stick, to put him down right then and there.)
It always comes down to whether or not we are fortunate enough to have good people in the right places at the right time. In Watergate, we did. In Iran/Contra, we did not. This time, we do not yet know.
However, put Sam Erwin from the Watergate days on the current Senate Judiciary Committee facing AGAG. Let AGAG say, “All I can say is that we were there on behalf of the President of the Unites States.” Does Sam look down, look to one side and the other, does Sam’s expression say, “C’mon, somebody help me out here”?
No. Jowls tremble, the table vibrates, waves of carpet rise in a crescendo, and, OMG, AGAG is flat on his back and he has lost his hearing: Sam knows who he is, he has a sense of his own dignity, he knows the dignity of the institution of which he is the caretaker of the moment, and he is convinced of the dignity of The People, and Sam has just made that situation clear!
Did these Senators do that? They did not. They let themselves appear as chumps. Water runs in their veins, not blood. For dignity is out of style.
TiredFed, (or any other legal types) apropos the question on whether the President could pardon Gonzo if he was impeached by the house, convicted by the Senate, and then convicted by the courts. I think there is a good argument that he could not be pardoned for the court conviction and would go to jail. Check out this. Tell me what’s wrong. Thanks.
AZ Matt @ 164
Thanks for the link, AZ Matt. I notice it’s heavy lifters Shumer, DiFi, Feingold, & Whitehouse that are calling for the SC…
LS @ 168
As painful as a recession will be, the US has been so lulled into the “good economy/happy people” concept that it is one of the only things that may finally break the torpor for so many.
-GSD
I didn’t serve in the military, nor did most women in the sixties. I feel now, that in exchange for military service, I will work on the elections ‘08 even harder than I did in ‘04 and ‘06, and I did work hard for both of those. There is hardly a day that goes by without my letters or calls to congresscritters.
There’s just one little voice in the back of my head that keeps asking, what about Diebold…
Congress should not go out on their summer recess. Show solidarity with the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Don’t let Bush use recess appointments of ideologues bent on destroying the Republic. I have a feeling that Gonzo is going to resign before he is indicted for perjury. Does anyone know if Bush can make a recess appointment of a new AG?
A’57 @ 124
I’m guessing most readers will blow off your comment as irrelevant. It’s not. I’m convinced this is a huge part of BushCo systemic rot.
nomolos @ 130
Mathews isn’t stupid. He is simply a whore with a Republican brother.
Steve-AR @ 153
Interesting watching: The Bush Family Connections
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RnAUQeHykXY
cancer_cures @ 154
Not all of us have jobs, much less secure jobs…
Frank33 @ 135
The possibility of Cheney’s mental incompetence was actually broached on two occasions in close succession a couple months back, by Jim Hoagland (he used the phrase “mental illness”) and I forget who else. I’m just saying that parts of the establishment are mulling over the necessity of getting rid of them.
God, I miss Billmon.Just as bad as I miss Steve. I recently did housekeeping on my bookmarks. It felt like I was deleting a part of myself.
Bargain Countertenor @ 170
Yes, and when the plane crashes on the proving grounds it is not logical to therefore conclude that the plane is now safe.
You’re right, I didn’t read the links. Multitasking. ‘Pologize.
Think jury’s still out on Iran. But if the bombing doesn’t happen, I would attribute it to the reality of the fact that the military is broken, not to anything the generals have done or said. In other words, the generals’ opinions are important only when facts are overwhelming on their side. And I mean overwhelmingly.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 164
Christy, as wonderful as you and Jane are, and your two (and the rest of the FDL crew are wonderful), you would really diminish the site if comments were closed. FDL’s true value is that you are creating a forum. So folks, listen to Christy. Be good. After all, isn’t that one of the things that distinguishes use from them?
Praedor at 171 — Alas, no. I miss Billmon terribly, to be honest — his writing style was a hot knife through a whole lot of butterfat and filler. SIGH
How the dickens did that comment get in twice? I put in in the prior thread using Firefox but everything went dead. Now I am back in Opera in this thread and there’s my comment from Firefox in this thread.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 163
I admit to being one of those sometimes guilty of “testy” comments, but I’d like to say Billmon’s was a very different kind of site. This one combines opinion with nuts and bolts political activism so it’s hard to imagine it functioning without comments.
Fresh thread up and running…
The crimes of the Bush Administration are all out in plain sight for everyone to see. We even have some signs of Democrats beginning to evolve spines and ask the tough questions.
The problem, as I see it, is that Abu could produce a video of Bush and Cheney having intercourse with, and then brutally murdering a prostitute and that night on the MSM they would lead with a Lindsey Lohan follow-up on rehab and then have some buried story about how Democrats “accuse” Bush of major crimes in partisan hearings.
Bush knows he has the media on his side and the Supreme Court stacked in his favor. He’s betting that he can get away with anything. Let’s face it, he openly bragged about committing a felony by disregarding the FISA laws. Not one MSM outlet lead with the story that “Prez Admits To Felony.” Which would have been entirely accurate.
If we have any hope of saving our Constitutionally limited, democratic republic we need to focus our efforts on the dissemination of truth.
We need to all write, call AND e-mail all the MSM media sources and howl with outrage over their coverage. Perhaps we should consider contacting the commercial sponsors of MSM outlets. The commercial sponsors won’t give a damn about our opinions, but if we can reach a critical mass of people bugging them, they’ll act just to shut us up.
Jesus even told the parable of a crooked judge who finally gave a poor widow justice just because he got tired of hearing from her.
If you ask me, that’s our best, last hope of saving our country. We need to get off of these boards where we’re preaching to the choir and find a way to let the rest of the masses understand what’s really going on.
Don’t let them spin it as some sort of partisan attack, but let them know this goes WAY beyond partisanship.
Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.
Schumer calling for Perjury noww..
I’ve always thought you need to get rid of Gonzo first..
He runs blocker for the WH.. Take him out them we get impeachable evidence from WH,, then we get Cheney and Bush
Christy:
I agree with you about civility to each other.
However, shutting off comments is not the answer. This is no longer an academic discussion. It is a debate between those of us who think the Republic is over, and those of you who think it is not.
I hope your right, I fear you’re wrong.
But shutting off comments defeats the entire purpose of a blog like FDL
If this latest fascist assault on the Constitution fails, we may have to thank “W” for screwing up again. After Jeb lost his first election, the thugs were forced to run the idiot son. I think if Jeb had been the President, their chances of success would have been much better.
I agree. It’s clearly a frustrating time and a frustrating topic for all. We’re all going in the same direction, but we’re arguing about how fast to go; whether it’s a sprint or a long-distance race. I think it’s both.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 166
OT, Christy, what a lovely birthday message you and the Peanut gave Jane yesterday. Didn’t get to read until later in the day (and what a day, huh?) and it made me smile. Then Jane’s piece…wow.
behindthefall @ 146
Leahy or Schumer could have successfully pulled off that same kind of outrage. Schumer came close!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 169
Perhaps we as commenters could begin by keeping things a lot more on topic, and by not insisting that the blog be run a certain way. This isn’t the public square.
LS @ 169
Well, if you watch CNBC, what we (the US economy) NEEDS right now is more corporate tax breaks.
And when that doesn’t happen (hello, huge deficits, war, etc.) it can all be blamed on the Democrats.
As always, it will somehow be blamed on the Dems, maybe even somehow some obscure policy of Clinton’s in 1993.
cynic at 196 — Re-read what I wrote. I did not say that we were shutting off comments. What I said was that civility will be restored, or we’ll be forced to think about it.
I’m a mom — consider it the warning before the time out. *g*
I think AGAG’s testimony was the last straw for many of us. He was shocking in his disregard.
It even managed to change Josh Marshal’s view on impeachment.
noen @ 19
coup d’etat means change of government, there is no definition of coup d’etat that I know of where “violent” is a necessary component.
[Mod: We will not permit advocacy of a coup d’etat, regardless of which dictionary you prefer.]
egregious @ 202
It isn’t? While I understand the need to stay on topic as much as possible, people go off topic all of the time. And the bloggers here at FDL get ideas from links, off topic discussions for other blogs. That is quite apparent and healthy
Helpless Dancer @ 187
Yep…and then there was the last post of Arthur Silber at Once Upon a Time… dated July 18 simply titled “Grim” and having to do with HIS health. Any word on his status?
The fear is palpable on the boards this morning. Let’s use the fear in constructive ways. Who should we be calling this morning? What CAN we do today that would be helpful? When we start worrying about the future and what might be coming down the pike it creates anxiety. None of us truly knows the future. So we need to stay in today…this moment and do what needs to be done. Taking care of one another and doing the next step is the most powerful thing we can do.
Stay in this moment. Breathe.
AnnieW @ 205
Too many lies to count and you could see that many of the Senators had had it.
Bluetoe @ 165
This is an historic artefact of their not controlling Congress in the Nixon years. Had they controlled it, as they did for a session in the 50s under Eisenhower, it would have been a different story. Nixon did go in for pomp and circumstance: I recall him dressing up the White House Band in some kind of Marx Brothers lala land outfit that made them all look like drum majors, but the real issue was that they didn’t control the Supremes or the Congress. In the 90s they had the Congress and the Supremes but not the White House. By the time they had the whole shebang, the die was cast. Imperial Presidency.
As to military invention, down here in EPU-land. I have always thought it would go the other way: that Bush would order an unprovoked attack on another country, and the military would refuse and put us into a caretaker government until new elections could be organized. That strikes me, within the range of far-out scenarios, more likely than a pro-Bush coup.
LS @ 136
Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in the 1970’s….
james @ 206
I just kept wondering why Iraqi anti-invasion and anti-war protestors just did not sit down in the streets for a few days. (although I understand about jobs, kids etc) Some of us did this during civil rights and Vietnam protest. Code Pink is the closest to this type of action, they just will not go away. Go Code Pink (and I do not agree with all of their methods) Just so respect their intentions and commitment
Christy, you mention Billmon for a reason? All the people I’ve seen in the last two weeks advocating violence against Americans on here can be tracked back to Billmon’s site. I wondered if that’s why he shut down. Thanks for confirming that. If I’m banned, why don’t you just say so…up front?
Should we be caling those Senators to thank them?
perris @ 49
The first act of this coup was carried out in Dallas in 1963. It enabled the Texas oil machine to insinuate itself into every nook and cranny of government and to debase our system with money and favors. The rest of the political atrocities this country has been subjected to follow from that one afternoon.
And no American family has benefited more from that act than the Bush family. Means, motive, and method; the Bush family is pure evil.
anangryoldbroad @ 212
Protestors against the Iraqi war in Miami Florida were attacked. Some of the young folk in our community were there and amongst the attacked. Way under reported
http://quebec.indymedia.org/en…..34e7cc45a9
Brisingamen @ 116
IIRC twas ol’ Douglas McAuthur leading the way himself, Ike was about as well. No Linky, wiki urself WW I Veteran Bonus Marches.
egregious @ 202
omg. you make it sound like you want to lose
Net Neutrality, not to mention the opportunity for public discourse that a forum such as this represents. Maybe we should pony up a mandatory fee like they do over at OReilly’s blog, right? Oh wait, that was criticized here yesterday.
In case you hadn’t noticed, Free Speech is under siege.
1) Free Speech
2) Free Speech
Meanwhile, we have an apparent tendency to indulge in tsk tsking over minutiae and about what’s proper and interjecting twisted moralism for no other purpose than to shame people into silence (then hiding behind ‘executive privilege’ when flaws in logic are challenged)…and then the next day, what do we have? a post that challenges the tyranny of executive privilege. Are you serious? I don’t want to connect the dots… really I don’t but I LOVE FDL. (caps for emphasis or do you have to use bold?)
In fact, I hope the melting pot that is FDL is made of a ‘mettle’ strong enough to handle (more than) a little heat.
As an example, I’m of the mind that if someone comes here talking about a violent coup, we do ourselves no favors to shoo them off instead of engaging them in talking about constructive routes AND taking a pulse on where we’re at in the real world — i.e., has it come to that? and how close are we?
Let’s not exacerbate the problems of squelched free speech — that are seeking an outlet — just because we’re afraid of a little heat, or of losing control.
The only way for people with marginally common points of view to come together is to work through it.
Let’s be secure enough within ourselves to let that happen. Big enough to hold on during the wild ride instead of telling it to go elsewhere. Can we be instructive and constructive, too? Please?
Squash free speech at your own risk.
First they came for….
and then they came for…
and then there was no one Left.
TribeScribe, we are just gonna have to agree to disagree here.
And for the record, I am pro net neutrality and have never advocated having a fee for commenters.
This is not a free for all place where anything goes. It’s Jane and Christy’s blog, and I think we would do well to respect the general guidelines they have given us about commenting.
perris @ 49
this is important to remember — the coup already happened. We’re trying to get the country back …
egregious @ 220
General guidelines are fine.
Precious and picayune not so much.
I’d much rather see FDL be an exemplar to the world as a place where people stand toe to toe and work out their differences. And the only thing necessary for that to happen is for people to relax. More integrity stands to be shown by allowing dissent than expecting people to continually fawn and obey. Blergh.
With the exception of a few instances of ad hominems, I have yet to see anything worth quashing. So yes, we’ll have to disagree.
noen @ 28
noen I don’t think Conyer’s had said much about Gonzo yet. I think it’s the Senator’s that are talking about a prosecutor. The right way to handle him is through impeachment. This does not protect him from prosecution in the courts as well and I think the case can be made that if he is convicted by the Senate and then convicted by a court he could not be pardoned. This last point is anything but clear. TiredFed disagrees with me on this but I have a writeup on it here.
So I say: Impeach, Convict, Indict, Try, Convict and send to jail.
There is a peaceful, Constitutional mechanism for overthrowing the government, or at least the regime in power. It’s called “IMPEACHMENT.”
If that transpired, perhaps Congress could then select for interim POTUS and VPOTUS a pair of elder statesmen with integrity intact, let’s say one from each party, who pledge not to endorse a candidate or to seek election.
In reference to the military and what they would or would not do: I think we need to consider that many of our troops are either National Guard or Reservists. I was once married to a National Guard officer who finally achieved the rank of Brigadier General so I’ve seen a lot soldiers and heard their stories. They are not indoctrinated with the “regular” army mentality as some may think. Many joined the ranks for reasons not having to do with actually going to war. They have in my opinion, performed their duties admirably but
do you really think that Moms and Dads, both in the NG are going to turn on their children that they have had to leave behind to be deployed? I just don’t believe that most of them would follow orders to turn on their own.
Hope I’m right!
Fern @ 65
Not quite. Parts of Quebec, perhaps, but of Ontario, only a smidgen dips below the latitude that parallels most of the northern US/Can border from Washington to Minnesota, well above northern CA.
That said, Vancouver is very temperate from the ocean. Don’t know which way that will head in coming decades of course.
realworld @ 177
just in case you come back to check, no, I don’t believe there is any limit to the President’s power to pardon on the criminal conviction. It’s been debated, though never tested AFAIK.
realworld @ 223
haha. IANAL realworld (one of my favorite shows btw), so my opinion on legal issues doesn’t count for much. I have almost 30 years as a Fed (2nd generation) and have seen a lot in my time, but not too many cases of successful impeachments of civil officers or even of judges (there have been a few of the latter). My sense of things is based on the fact that the founders specifically excluded penalties of blood and bond (meaning you could not take someone’s life or property), merely their position in the government. So it seems to me that when they said “except in cases of impeachment” they meant only the instant case of impeachment, not any follow-on cases that the government would then be free to pursue (e.g., criminal and civil).
Christy, I will leave you a note upthread this evening or maybe Saturday morning. I’m sorry if my ramblings virtually hijacked your thread here. I am, as always, indebted to you and Jane for offering such a forum and will try to offer on-topic comments and information until we reach the magic 100 comments or so (the traditional point at which one can go OT). I can’t thank you enough for sharing your views and talents with all of us. Mr. Hedd is a very lucky man.
eCAHNomics @ 80
I’m WAY late to this thread but, I’m with you on the above.
My understanding is the military IN GENERAL, is as fractured along lines of thought as the general public.
And, the USAF has been HEAVILY laden with Christian Fundie’s so you KNOW which way they will tilt if push comes to shove. Whether the air borne parts of the Navy forces are also ‘comprimised’ I haven’t heard.
But the military is fractured . . . a coup is possible. All it will take is one false fed flag incident, and/or the attack on Iran.
And martial law drops in a new york minute.
What Russia, and China will do, in the middle of all of this, has not been put to pen anywhere that I’ve read yet . . .
It very well COULD be, Putin DID take it to the BoyKing about Iran, and the gas pipeline deal thru Pakistan to Indya. In which case, Putin could VERY well go down in history as having saved our Republic . . . who knows, I sure don’t, yet.
But my spidey senses tingle like never before, and the build up, the efforts documented beginning with one stolen election, then another, an illegal invasion, Patriot Act/Loss Of Habeus, renditions, etc., they tell me to be afraid, very very afraid.
To NOT be, at this point, would be foolish.
And to hope, any entity of our government or military will function as we EXPECT them to, is naive. It’s all been comprimised, and NOTHING is as it was. EVERYTHING is at risk, and it’s all hanging by a thread . . . recess scares me.
A guy is at a bar and has had too much to drink. He slams his beer mug on the bar and yells, “all Bush Republicans are sons of bitches.” A guy comes over and says, “you offend me.” The drunk guy says, “why are you a Bush Republican?” The guy answers, “no, I am a son of a bitch.”