I figure a lot of people missed this terrific discussion from Sunday night, where an Iraqi medical relief worker, Dr. Maryam, who cares for war orphans, told us bluntly:
Stop telling lies to yourself American. We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values. we know that because we see how they behave and have to bury their victims. If you are stupid enough to think we feel anything but hatred and contempt for your soldiers and the country that sent them to make war on my people then you are a fool.
As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse.
And then this:
Irak is a better transliteration. The quote you are referring to is this:
“The only thing these sand niggers understand is force and I’m about to introduce them to it.”
And is from a senior American officer. It is a perfect example of how your troops regard us. Which is why we highlight it.
As digby points out, our immoral, imperialistic policy of mass murders corrupts the good men and women we send there:
Our military is occupying a country in the middle of a violent civil war. The soldiers in this occupation are being deployed over and over again to try to “win” something that isn’t even defined. To my way of thinking it’s a miracle that so many of them are able to keep it together at all. Of course, there are some crazed psychos among them and probably some serious psychological damage among a fair number of others. And because of the macho, group pressure and people like Bush and this author egging them on instead of showing mature leadership, there is little to curb this behavior other than some rather quaint appeals to honor and duty, which must be sounding rather hollow to a lot of them at this point.
Iraq is creating monsters everywhere, from terrorists, to extremists to damaged American soldiers who are so tired from repeated deployments that they are losing track of what is normal.
Yup.
We need to get out of Iraq for a host of moral and national security reasons. We need to get out of Iraq because our criminal imperialistic enterprise is destroying the fragile constitutional balance that has been responsible for keeping us (often unsuccessfully, it’s true) from some of the worst impulses power plus human nature can jointly contrive.
And then, we have to eradicate from even the Democratic Party the belief that we have any place using force to tell people in the world what to do with their lives. . . all in the name of “liberty.”
Related posts:
- Lawrence O’Donnell: Pelosi Telling Her Troops to Go Forward Without a Public Option
- Seventy-seven Members of Congress to Obama: Stop DADT Now
- Who Will Stop the GOP’s Relentless Assault on Traditional Family Values?
- Jeb Bush: Stop Blaming My Brother for Driving the Country Off a Cliff
- Wherein Lies the Fort Hood Intel Failure? Connecting Nidal Hasan’s Dots
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Free Sheehan!
DOS?
zero?
Lies,
The staple of Republican power.
singles?
shoot! (kicks pebble…) my machine is sooooo slow!
Hi Parachutec. Thought you were taking a breather?
do-si-do @ 6
Well, I’ve been changing my focus in FDL work away from writing, and it’c been happening for a while.
I gave up my regular Saturday Late Nite slot, but I’ll pop in now and again.
What genius asked her the question that provoked such a response?
Pachacutec @ 7
Thanks for bringing these remarks forward. I can’t follow FDL closely on weekends…
and NO! I don’t kid myself that Iraq is just so grateful that we have, er, outstayed our welcome (understatement of the year for me). The US (we) are now the global bully. God help us.
Here’s the question:
BigMitch @ 8
I think the commenters did very well, and received her warmly, and gracefully.
Go back and have a look.
just thanks.
Our force, military might, whatever, must be used only for our self-defense.
Genocides, mass-murders of any kind should be dealt with by the United Nations.
The world community must decide when intervention with force is necessary.
Democracy and freedom spring from within a people-it can’t be forced down their throats…
Pachacutec @ 11
I agree. The questioner, who I referred to as a genius, was myself. Sorry, I don’t know the emoticon for self-depricating sarcasm.
That was a very refreshing thing with Maryam last evening. I get so weary of my writing and talking being confined and so bland. It was sort of vicarious for this reader. And what Maryam said is the truth.
amen. thank you pach.
that’s what i want – an anti-imperialist democratic party.
Last night’s session with Maryam was momentous. I couldn’t sleep for hours afterwards.
I was not surprised by anything she said. If I had tried to put myself in her place, I might have written even stronger words.
Still, it was breathtaking to see them in print. Even anti-war blogs do not ever portray how it really is for Iraqis and how they feel about the U.S.
Bush destroyed Iraq so horrifically by firing all Iraqi government officials, removing all military, police, health, and school officials, and letting the ministries and government buildings get sacked and looted.
Let’s never forget what happened. I hear a lot of people blame the Iraqis, the troops, American voters, but in reality, the fault rests on those in the military brass who DID not have the foresight to protect Iraqi interests from looting. The fault rests on the Bush Administration (through Bremer, that dickhead) for firing the entire government with no thought in his head on what Iraqi’s were supposed to do THE NEXT DAY. And one of Bush’s appointed advisors should have came to him immediately and told Bush that Bremer was fucking up. Which didn’t happen. Because Bush’s advisors are either yes men, or idiots. Maybe because they were hired by an idiot.
Iraq fell apart because they wanted it to fall apart. And if they didn’t it sure as hell looked that way. Once again, America needs to look at the picture and realize one of two scenarios:
1. The Bush Administration is wholly corrupt.
2. The Bush Administration is dangerously incompetent.
There is no third option.
oddball @ 1
Well ya! But, but cannot we remain ‘civil’ during this genocide?
What I find amazing is the complete blackout on how we are perceived by the rest of the world. From the lack of coverage of international protests before the Iraq war straight through to today. We really don’t know.
I read the thread with Dr. Maryan live – really powerful!! Thanks, Pachacutec, for continuing discussion of it.
and – EPU’d, as is often the case with me:
Anyone see Katrina VandenHeuvel on Tucker this afternoon? Boy, she really ripped him a new one!!! And that was after I watched Michael Moore on Tweety. Nice to hear some serious pushback!
So what now? We’re damned if we stay, we’ll be damned for what happens when we leave.
At the least, we have to impeach the assholes who caused this avoidable mess.
We have to show the rest of the world that we as a people do not accept the actions of our “leaders”.
TexB @ 20
Get CNN International on Time Warner Cable. That appears to be where all the old “good” CNN staff have gone. they tell it pretty straight. I were shocked when I watched it a friends house. I have Dish and cannot get it. :(:(:(:(
Called him on his snark–actually used the word. It was loverly.
althespook @ 23
Yes. Would you like to please tell all of my neighbors and friends to watch it also?
For anyone who wasn’t there, Dr. Maryam was incredibly blunt, and not inclined in the least to pull punches. And why should she? I felt that I learned a great deal, though I still don’t know how representative her views are. I found it amazing to hear her say that Saddam was a s.o.b. if you were a political opponent, but for the average Iraqi, not so bad. As to sectarian strife that has existed for centuries, etc., she challenged us to consider that 60% of Saddam’s officer corps were Shi’as.
cancer_cures @ 18
Could be a combination of the above.
Well, it’s not just the BushCo are incompetent imperialists.
After all, would it be better if they were competent imperialists?
Pach, Siun, I have a small question. Did M tell us her background? Sunni, Shia, minority, what? It might help to put her very correct rage in context, cause she said some things (I was lurking, not feeling I had much to add) that i think we could better understand if we know her background.
this is not to discount or trivialize or demonize anything she said, but rather to allow us to connect it to OUR world.
Arca @ 22
Maryam was very clear as to what we should do. She wants us out of her country, now, and the Iraqi’s will take care of themselves. Our troops presence is what keeps the violence churning.
So now this maladministration is talking about taking ground troops to Pakistan? What are they smoking in the WH and DoD?
(feeling really hobbled on old laptop while my good one is in the shop being tuned up for YK2. Missing so many of my fast goodies)
BigMitch @ 8
Got a mirror handy?
Anyone see Katrina VandenHeuvel on Tucker this afternoon? She really ripped him a new one!!! Nice to hear some serious pushback!Yes, little Tfucker gets paid to be rude. His interuptions deserved a good smackdown. Now to get him into the Marines, soon!
eCAHNomics @ 17
I think that is would be immensely helpful to the anti-war effort if more of the general public was made aware of how the Iraqis truly feel about the U.S. The media coverage of the occupation is so sanitized.
SeamusD summarilzed her views perfectly.
RevDeb @ 30
oh no! what happened to your laptop?
selise @ 16
Thomas Jefferson speaking of Napoleon: “the wretch…who has been the author of more misery and suffering to the world, than any being who ever lived before him. After destroying the liberties of his country, he has exhausted all its resources, physical and moral, to indulge his own maniac ambition, his own tyrannical and overbearing spirit.”
Seems that Jefferson was extraordinarily prescient of our current sociopath in chief
Notice how Tucker ahems around the topic of shredding the Constitution. Katrina did well. Poor Tucker, he looked even more teenage preppy snot than usual today.
Just so you all know, we’re going to be having a Live Chat during the Democratic Debate on The Blue State blog. Just enter a nickname and you will be able to chat live with fellow progressives as you watch the debate live on CNN at 7 PM ET/4 PM PT.
http://www.thebluestate.com
my vietnam vet husband just blew a gasket with that comment…”what is normal” oh my GOD this has to be stopped!!!
IMPEACH THE WHOLE ADMIN.
Lea-no uh @ 33
I agree.
Crap. I was going to write about this tonight.
*sigh*
Back to the drawing board…
As I stated on another post.
A rogue elephant has trampled America’s moral compass.
History doesn’t remember much about the German’s who weren’t on board with Der Fuhrer.
War crimes…pshaw…A mere technicality.
Swirling down the red, white and blue drain.
-GSD
TexB @ 40
me too!!!
Lea-no uh @ 33
“Sanitized” is a euphemism. It is totally misleading. The truth, if Dr. Maryam is to be believed, is that the country is nearly united in the attitude that we should get the fuck out, and right now. We hear over and over again that there will be a civil war, or else we are in one now. Her statements suggest that this is not true. There will be problems which they will solve themselves, but now the violence is all about getting Americans out. She expressed the view that the Americans are working to make the country ungovernable so that there is an excuse to stay. If this is true, then everything we hear is not sanitized. It is bullshit.
Print out copies of the photos of a the deformed babies from depleted uranium and post them where you feel would be most efffetive.
Todd @ 38
Will there be a special thread here at FDL for us to vent on while the debate is in progress?
Our military is occupying a country in the middle of a violent civil war.
Yes, and, I’m sure Maryam would agree, we caused it and it’s completely, 100% our fucking fault. I read the thread and she was quick to dubunk any mendacious theories like “oh, they’ve been at each others throats for over a thousand years and Saddam just kept a lid on it for a while.” It’s bullshit. We own every shard and shiver of this broken urn.
BigMitch @ 14
Yeah, someone needs to pixillate an image of a round, yellow thing sneering at itself in the mirror.
I might even start using emoticons if I could use that one, which would be frequently approprié.
Third option: both of the above.
Those sand-n***s, those ‘marsh Arabs’ living near the junction of the Tigris and the Euphrates were in Ur when Abraham left there in 1679 B.C. with Sarah and 220 fellow citizens to walk the trade route in an arc to Hebron. Their city had been there 3500 (!!) years by then, and their distant ancestors had in essence invented our civilization.
And YOU think that all THEY understand is FORCE, Mr. Officer, Sir?
Cancer cures says:
definitely both.
GSD @ 42
I saw that earlier. We’re a long way down a particularly nasty and slippery slope.
“As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse.”
I won’t defend indefensible behavior by our troops, or this horrific and misguided war. But a claim like this is ridiculous on its face and undercuts any credibility by its author. Or by the author of this post, who clearly has no idea what mass murder actually looks like.
What makes you think America ever had a moral compass? Read Overthrow—America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq by Steven Kinzer. It’s the history of the 14 governments (most democratic) that the U.S. has overthrown since 1890s. W is worse than most, but well within a strong U.S. tradition.
Gosh, this all sounds familiar.
Maybe 40 years back or so.
ironranger @ 37
How come he hasn’t signed up for duty yet? (oops, no pun intended *g*)
*ilbo @ 45
‘Effective’, nails need trimming..
Tug @ 54
The saddest comment of all.
*ilbo @ 32
Is it on video anywhere, for those of us who missed it?
If you see the movie Control Room there is a scene in which a young boy is screaming at the cameras. He was yelling about a man who was a Saddam supporting Baathist calling him scum, the rage and pain etched into his youthful face in shocking color…then he lit into the American troops too with roughly the same litany of expletives and level of anger…..
We are always presented with the false choice option in the media….However it is possible to loathe Saddam and also hate Bush’s war.
-GSD
George Bush is the General Custer of today. And he will walk into another ego-fueled trap.
althespook @ 28
Her point was that it does not matter what she is. All Iraqi’s feel the same. They don’t care about our internal affairs, or our setting the blame on one sector. Forgiving us is simply not in the cards, we have sinned most grievously. In her view, we are all to blame. The way our soldiers are behaving is an indictment on all Americans, and the rest of the world pretty much agrees.
I see your troll is at it again. Birnbaum why don’t you just STFU and whore the deaths of innocent civilians elsewhere. As to the question asked about her background.
She is Shia. Her father was Sunni. Her husband killed by American troops was Sunni. Some of her children are Shia some are Sunni. She is in short a very typical Iraki.
Oh and for the record. I’ve known her since I was a very small child. Also for the record I am neither Muslim nor Iraki. I did however grow up as a Christian in Muslim countries. You really need to get over this Sunni/Shia BS. Most Muslims regard it as of peripheral importance at best.
What Dr. Maryam said and what Digby said cuts like a fucking knife through my heart.
Our son and stepson served there, against our will, against our personal and national interests, against all that I and people like me have done to protest and try to change the course.
But now he is damaged goods, not only because he came back with PTSD, but that he and his kind who served like him will be forever branded as monsters.
This is NOT what we wanted. This was done in our names, damaging our good names, damaging our good will, damaging our souls.
Our democracy died and we didn’t even have a funeral for it; we are cursed and reviled for its loss around the world, and especially in Iraq. And there is nothing at all we can do to actually make it right except leave them to tend their wounds. Most especially, leave.
Lahoma says she likes Maryam. That takes care of that. Lahoma is more of a radical than I am. She says there is still hope for me though. ;0)
What this women has told us is completely consistent with various things I have read from time to time over the past two years … I believe her: and some in her country may disagree to some degree just as we see we disagree here about things of somewhat less consequence.
Most of the people had electricity, functioning sewers, jobs, homes, clean streets, and safe public spaces when Saddam was alive in spite of his evil. Even those who knew he was evil.
The country is ruined. The people are dying. American imperialism will never put it back. Shame on us.
selise @ 16
I agree.. so long as anti-imperialism is different from isolationism… the US should contribute internationally to UN-led initiatives, in a manner proportionate to our size and wealth. The argument here is against shrub’s unilateralism and not against collective action by the world community, say in Darfur or, perhaps someday in the future, in the West Bank.
larry birnbaum @ 53
That’s an Iraqi being quoted. And as far as I can tell, the statement is true: life in Iraq wasn’t bad before Bush decided to invade them. It’s bad now. The blame is ours.
As for U.S. mass murder in Iraq, someone help me with the numbers:
-650,000 civilians since the war began, as of a year ago. 800,000 now?
-500,000 under sanctions
-200,000 (or was it 100,000?) during GWI
-4 million refuggees inside & outside
And Maryam sez that, if anything, that’s an underestimate.
Now that’s I call call mass murder. Does anyone on the thread have a higher hurdle?
Woo Hoo, I just got off the phone with Sen Akaka’s office, they were taking copious notes on Steven Bradbury and his probable Vacancies Act violations and his authority to issue the memorandum on Meirs recusal for testimony! As Subcommittee Chairman of Oversight they were very interested in what I had to say, and promised to keep me informed!
dubhaltach @ 63
As she stated, Americans have to stop lying to themselves.
Someone pointed out earlier, the warped US warmongering mindset.
“We are here to stop the mass killing in Iraq!”
“What, you don’t appreciate what we are doing? Let’s kill them all!”
“But if we leave Iraq, they will start killing each other so wwe better “take of the gloves” and git ‘er done.”
-GSD
((Rayne))
If i may gently add to what you said, amen, and I too feel morally obligated that our troops should leave, not stay.
US occupation is part of, if not THE, problem in Iraq. We are not the solution.
peace.
dubhaltach @ 63
That is what I thought. It makes no difference as others have said to the terrible crimes we have commited by making illegal war there for the last five years, but it makes a difference to me in understanding her context.
And she has more right to be angry than even most of us know. There are disconnects in the setup to the first gulf war that made my hair stand on end (I was still working then). We could never prove them, but if they were true, then as I said, she has far more right to be angry than any of us know.
AK -
That was a lovely little ray of sunshine story you left downstairs. Thanks for the pick-me-up!
The Big Lie tells that ring much of American conduct in the ME and for that matter all around the planet are deeply set in WashDC.
These Big Lies easily reach back to the 19th century.
What the Bush/Cheney WH does today in Iraq or threatens Iran with or other ME lands is not a new throw of dice in historical American world affairs.
Sadly the Democratic Party does represent the same WashDC viewpoints.
G.W.Bush and Dick Cheney have pushed American Imperialism in the ME over oil and militarism to very dangerous blowback levels.
That cannot be undone now.
Making amends and atonements will require levels of leadership ability G.W.Bush has not.
What is very important now is fully vetting how sincere Hillary,Barack or John are about actually fully getting out of Iraq.
Anything short of full pull out of Americans from Iraq is not a withdrawal. It is staying.
Hillary and Barack in particular need to be very candid and honest about what they honestly seek to do or not do.
No more Big Lies Hillary.
No more Big Lies Barack.
If they plan on more Big Lie tells then they should not gain the WH.
Let the GOP dig itself and the Big Lie tell a grave.
The Big Lie tell must be finished off.
If the Democrats are too spineless or dishonest to do so they do not deserve to be in the WH just because they are not as “bad” as the DC GOPers.
Hillary or Barack should not get in on idea that they are better choice because they are not as “bad” as the GOP brand offerings.
Where are they on Iraq? Simple honesty please.
Stop the Big Lie tell.
CTuttle @ 70
Outstanding! I’m glad to see someone moving on that!
Waccamaw @ 74
You don’t need a weatherman to tell which way the wind is blowing…
“Iraq fell apart because they wanted it to fall apart.”
This is nonsense. The petro-borgs had not an INKLING that nearly 4 1/2 years after bush pulled the trigger, they would be bogged down in this charnal house of sectarian violence.
They really believed that they could get rid of Saddam and turn Iraq into our corporate cash cow. Specifically, they were nuts enough to believe things, and PLAN for things, such as rebuilding the old post-WWI Mosul-to Haifa-pipeline. They seriously thought that Iraq would be tranquil enough to permit bushCo to run that across northern Iraq; across SYRIA, for god’s sake, and into the Israeli port of Haifa; where LOTS of Iraqi oil could tankered up for the U.S. and Britain. Minus a substantial skim, for Israel.
It was one of Richard Perle’s pet schemes.
It was also, as we are seeing, a bloody fantasy, for which a lot of americans and Iraqis have paid with their lives.
Happily enough, there is a very good chance that both Dick Cheyney and george bush will pay for their savage idiocy by being forced to resign.
I think this is going to happen, and it will happen because these assholes’ value to the republican party as sacrifical goats is going up daily, while their value as Prez and Vice Prez, and as spokesmen for the GOP, is evaporating like a puddle of back-alley piss.
The repubs simply HAVE to disconnect from Iraq, if they and their “We’ve got ours, screw you, Jack!” philosophy is going to have a chance of surviving. The only way they can do that is by throwing this entire administration under the bus, and I will GUARANTEE everyone reading this, that the republican leaders in the Senate and House, are presently discussing just that.
P J Evans @ 68
He may have been inhumanely wretched, but Saddam was theirs. He belonged to them, was of them, and might eventually been dealt with by them. The only thing that stopped the East Germans and the former Soviets were their belief systems; when they had enough and wanted change, their systems fell apart and evolved into something else.
In the same way, we must deal with our own inhuman and wretched leaders. It’s time to put aside the illusions.
“We own every shard and shiver of this broken urn.” Nice turn of phrase.
Incidentally, I was just working on a blog for my site based on my reaction to her. Preview: I have come reluctantly to the conclusion that we need a draft, because the American soldier who commits atrocities does not reflect American values. I know that a draft will not completely insulate this type of conduct, but I believe it will help.
CTuttle @ 70
Good-luck….Gawd speed….
We also need to make sure that sugar-coated fairy tales about exporting democracy, fighting the evil commies, and liberating people for, at worst, misguided reasons are not permitted to appear in our history textbooks about the current occupation, and are excised about previous conflicts. Then maybe everyone will be sufficiently informed to ensure the death of the myth of American exceptionalism. Then, maybe, the US won’t repeat the same mistake. There’s a woeful lack of introspection in this country.
We also need to call our congresspeople when they employ such rhetoric. When Barbara Boxer talked about how awesome the US was during the all-night filibuster, it made me sick.
And if you haven’t read this, do not pass go, do not refresh, go immediately and read it ASAP. U.S. soldiers themselves admit their atrocities. You don’t have to take Maryam’s word for it.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges
this invasion was a bad idea from the get go, it was, and always will be, a lose-lose situation for the US.
you don’t barge into a house, rape and rob the owner, then berate them for having a sloppy house. it’s not exactly winning hearts and minds.
I’m inclined to think that hegemony was never a good policy. It certainly will never win over hearts or minds. During Viet Nam a saying came about: What if they gave a war and nobody came? We now have an all volunteer army, so it would be possible. If only…
I recently shit-canned a relationship with a now ex-boyfriend once I realized that we saw virtually everything differently and never the twain would meet. I had previously thought of him as a patriot because I never blamed the soldiers who went to Viet Nam. I didn’t understand why people spat at them when they returned. Then one day we had a discussion about torture. He said well, what do you consider torture? I said those pictures from Abu Graib indicated torture. He said those weren’t torture. They did a hell of a lot worse in Nam. And proceeded to discuss throwing prisoners out of planes much more often than I ever realized. Then I realized that I had never heard of any North Vietnamese war prisoners in Viet Nam. I wonder what could have happened to them? When I mentioned the Geneva Conventions, and that torture doesn’t work, there were typical talking points. Geneva was old and what’s going on now is so much worse, blah, blah, and of course torture works, blah, blah, and by the way, the Constitution is old and outmoded. No need to worry about that either. This is a man that came back severely damaged and is now on a number of psychotropic drugs to counteract his bipolar condition. But I have a serious problem with what we are doing to our troops in an unjust war of choice, and also a problem with what the volunteer troops are doing to themselves. I agreed that war was declared on us before we went to Afghanistan, and I still believe that was justified, but we had no business getting sidetracked into Iraq. My problem is this, though: Now there are apx. 70% of our citizens objecting to the war in Iraq, yet we can’t get a concensus in Congress.
There are not enough votes to get us out. It also appears that the only way we will get out is to impeach the pres. & v.p., yet only about 48% of the populace is up for impeachment of the President. By the time that number is large enough to get the administration out of office their term will be over anyway. Problem is that now everyone is mad at all the politicians, especially the Dems, because they tried to get us out but have been unsuccessful due to Repug blind party loyalty. If we’re not truly careful, we may get another terrible administration into office that we’re stuck with for another four to eight years. Talk about all the answers being bad!
BigMitch @ 79
If every single parent in this country felt the same hurt, betrayal and confusion that we feel, I don’t doubt for a second that we’d be talking about the exit right now rather than whether we ever will.
eCAHNomics @ 69
Not only to Dr. M. confirm these numbers, she asked rhetorically, “How does it feel to learn that your ’shining city on a hill’ is engaged in genocidal activities.” IIRC.
The War Crime that is called Iraq, is now being used as a “shiny object” as the Republicans accelerate the subversion of the Constitution. The past few weeks with the “no contempt, we are above the law”, the Exec Order saying the the WH can freeze assets without due process or the courts, refusing Vic Fazio’s request for the Emergency Government Plans etc. The police state is almost in place, the question is how to stop it or is it too late? The talk about Impeachment, or Inherent Contempt is magical thinking..those avenues are blocked.
The Exec. order allowing the freezing of assets is a huge club. Any protest could be called “aiding the enemy” and all of your assets are frozen by order of the WH. These guys don’t plan on giving up power in ‘09.
Ann in AZ
Read The Nation article.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges
I am finally beginning to understand the conflict I see even among those who say they are anti-war when they say “but how can we leave the country in chaos.” This is a sense of responsibility: but we are not the solution, friends and patriots.
I have long understood that war/occupation is the chaos. American is the bringer of this chaos. If we left, the chaos might be manageable, but not while we are there.
This is why I have felt adamatly for quite a while that we just need to leave as quickly and quietly as possible.
I saw a comment somewhere over the weekend that we should tell the UN our date certain and let the honest brokers of the international community decide what to do and how to do it. We cannot be trusted. This made sense to me.
Not much else makes any sense to me right now about this mess.
Peace, Please.
Rayne I’ve now served in both Afghanistan and Irak. Individually the American soldier is decent enough and courageous too.
But they are the problem. I’m sorry but they deserve what they’re being tarred with. They deserve it because they’re committing one war crime after another.
They’re the problem and they always were and because of that the war in Irak is lost and IMO the one in Afghanistan is well on the way to being lost. In each case because of the tactic deliberately used by American troops of targeting civilians.
I think it’s important to hear the words of an Iraqi female doctor who works with refugee children.. I think it is important to know she does not discern between peaceful Americans and the ones who shoot and bomb her country as we type and read.
And though I know America has many who don’t want this occupation… most did condone it initially and it was the worst of us, thoughtless, arrogant racist fear that allowed far to many of us to accept Bushco’s genocide for oil.
Needless unprovoked genocide.. That is what Bushco is all about and far to many of us let them..
And yet, some say we are not supposed to protest because it might mess up the process?
althespook @ 76
I essentially quoted Emptywheel’s excellent July 18th post at TNH! They were most interested! I also asked about Tim Griffin and his probable Vacancies act violations! It was heartening to hear the obvious interest in what I was telling them!!! We shall see!!! 8-)
And this puppet Nouri al-Maliki is Shi’a and so is Maryam? And she seems to loath this man Maliki. Telling.
eCAHNomics @ 83
I think that atrocities in war tend to happen whenever ill-prepared and ill-trained soldiers are deployed in combat conditions without proper support or even the prospect of relief or reinforcement, under leaders who tolerate or even encourage the view that difference is subhuman, that we fight for God, that atrocities are our prerogative, that boys will be boys and that impunity is the order of the day. All this is the case in shrub’s wars.
Ann in AZ @ 83
It should be pointed out that only about half that number favored impeaching Nixon before the impeachment investigation began. 4 months later Nixon was gone.
fdl reader @ 87
I am tempted to think such comments come from neocons, as getting the UN involved is a sure fire way to discredit the UN.
There is no solution for Iraq. Stop trying to mindlessly foist responsibility off on someone else.
I think I didn’t see you online last night. Maryam said that Iraq is for Iraqis, that there’s nothing anyone else can/should do. She wants everyone to just GTF out and leave them to solve their own problems (or not, as I suppose the case could be).
I get very fed up of the American attitude that there’s a solution to every problem.
Rayne @ 78
I have a friend who is a concert pianist – in fact was an official Artist of Iraq. She travelled all over the world giving concerts as an artistic ambassador. She was given a Steinway grand by Saddam, and was invited to the wedding of his daughter – and knew the sons (not friends!) She and her sister were living in their home in Baghdad during the bombing of the first Gulf War. They moved here about 10 years ago, although I knew her from the 70’s when she was teaching here in the Twin Cities.
She had told me years ago of how awful Saddam was – but when I called her after the invasion started in this war, and mentioned what she had told me about Saddam – she said yes – but there life generally was not bad. But the US ruining their country was unforgivable.
I haven’t talked to her about it since – too painful for both of us. I have to believe that in her gentle heart, there is some of the anger expressed by Maryam.
dubhaltach @ 90
Now the US is using Sunni groups as proxies and looking the other way as they engage in war crimes…..this is one of the big reasons for the “turnaround in al Anbar”. Stepping away and arming and giving money to militias and not caring what they do as long as they don’t target Americans is not a winning strategy in the long run.
I imagine that it is helping to foster a “stabbed in the back” mindset among many of the Shia and is helping to pave the way for a more civil conflict, not less. In other words the hand-wringing about dead Iraqis is merely another useful argument for continued occupation.
Again, if there are two options in Iraq, the US always chooses the worst one.
-GSD
It would be great to think that it is just being in Iraq and the pressure that the soldiers feel that turns “some” of them into indiscrimate killers. But some of them are products of a culture which is brought up on the “U.S. is number one” “the city on the hill”, “the best” etc etc. Some soldiers and American citizens actually believe this.
While protesting before the invasion I ran into many people with crosses around their necks who would say things like “go kill them all” “nuke them’ etc.
Arrogance, disrespect, and disregard for others on this planet is not in short supply in the U.S.
dubhaltach @ 88
Have you read The Nation article? Is it accurate IYO?
Blub I am going to call BS right here and now. Attrocities in war do not “happen” they are done. They are done by people to other people. Usually they are done with malice and forethought.
Let’s get out of this nice safe insulation of the passive voice shall we?
War crimes are being committed by all sides in Irak. The only difference is that the biggest death squad of all is called the U.S. army.
dubhaltach @ 100
Yup.
Rayne @ 86
I try to keep the blogwhoring to a minimum. But as I wrote in Fuck the Draft 11/24/06:
Now, as Charlie Rangel argues, we may need to institute a draft to protect us from American fascism. He’s got a point there.
Hugh @ 95
True, Hugh! Even if the clock runs out on Shrub, we still need to close the circle and continue impeachment proceedings, if only to put the Unitary Executive notions permanently out of commission!!!
I’m so angry with our government, one side shamelessly flaunting their warmongering and their greed, the other embarrassed by it but not quite enough to stand up for peace since they sit atop the same lofty perch of privilege.
Make no mistake about it folks, we are the only chance to put an end to this disgrace.
eCAHNomics @ 96
Thank you! ITA.
If America was so concerned with saving actual, you know, people, why don’t we go to Darfur?
I’m also sick of the arrogance and ignorance displayed towards a very complicated area of the world like the Middle East. It’s like assuming all of the US is comprised of blond californians and texan cowboys (no offense, just making a point). We more diverse than that and so is the ME.
BigMitch @ 86
And both of the Lancet Reports were swept under the rug by the Bush administration and the MSM was happy to comply. Most Americans really do not want to know how many Iraqi people have been killed, injured or displaced it could put a leak in the bubble
http://zmagsite.zmag.org/Feb2006/davies0206.html
http://www.medialens.org/alert…..author.php
eCAHNomics @ 97
Sorry: you are right. I’m just saying if anyone can help the Iraqis it’s not us. I don’t even want to hear Kerry talking about leaving with responsibility. It’s so false and keeps us in this trap.
This is what I have been saying for awhile: there is no solution, certainly no good solution. All we can hope for is to shorten the everlasting agony.
I will read everything Maryam said: it’s such an astonishing event.
I think I know where larry birnbaum @ 53 is coming from. Those of us who lost huge swaths of family in the holocaust tend to think that other wars and other genocides somehow have to measure up to that one in order for us to express outrage. Otherwise we are somehow desecrating the memory of that whole generation of Jews that was nearly wiped out.
But the answer isn’t to make such comparisons. Rather we have to keep fighting those imperialist and super-nationalist forces which can arise in all peoples and which can cause such horrific harm.
Debate time on CNN!!!
If it’s the article about American vets of Irak talking about things they’ve done yes. It’s accurate – very watered down but accurate.
CTuttle @ 93
Excellent! Thanks for following through.
CTuttle @ 111
I’m there. ;0)
CTuttle @ 111
cspan radio for those of us channel impaired
Here’s the debate.
BigMitch @ 79
When I went to basic training at Ft. Polk, LA, in March, 1966, there were signs all over the post with slogans like “Bong the Cong,” and so on. Some sergeants and lower rank officers never referred to the Vietnamese – North or South – as anything but “gooks,” slopes” or “chinks.” Most of the recruits who went through basic and Advanced Infantry Training with me picked this stuff up rapidly. About 2/3 of the recruits were “US” – draftees. Some of the NCOs who trained us had been through three wars – WWII, Korea and a tour or so of Vietnam. They knew well how to instill racial hatred in us.
A number of books and papers have been written over the years which pretty much show that any recruit can be taught to hate, whether a volunteer or an inductee. I’ve witnessed it myself. The NCOs and officers who would train inductees in the event of a return of the draft would be at least as capable of instilling racial hatrad as they were in 1967. Moreover, the ranks of the Army and USMC are now filled with Christofascists and Christian Zionists, all of whom are infused with hatred of Arabs. During Vietnam, there wasn’t nearly as much religious nuttiness in the mix. “Godless Communism” doesn’t make one hate nearly as much as the propagandized, sophisticated animosity toward Muslims we’re experiencing now.
I cried for a while when I got up this morning – very early, ’cause I couldn’t sleep. I’d been thinking about what Maryam has gone through. Now, with dubaltach describing her family situation more fully, I’m finding it hard to stand here and blog away.
Thanks for bringing this to the fore today, Pachacutec. Siun’s Sunday evening posts have become one of the most vital parts of firedoglake. I’ve noticed increasing comments coming in during her time period from all over the world.
pach,
it’s good to have your voice in our midst again. i miss your saturday night regular post.
at this point the most important thing Americns can do is to demand that congress
IMPEACH NOW. it’s the right thing to do.
we can raise our voices and show our representatives that we will not stop asking for this action on their part. we must demand impeachment 24/7.
i’m on the road now so i’ll keep this short. suffice it to say that i agree with many of the passionate voices speaking out today ……
Goddamn CNN playback doesn’t work in Firefox, have to use Internet Explorer.
And, here’s the Dodd talk meter:
Hillary calls herself Progressive?
There goes Gravel again
Yawn. Yep. It’s all true. Whatcha gonna do about it? I’ve called all of my congresspeople. Have you?
Anyone know how you vote for the yellow line?
Can I just nail something else here. The U.N. is hated in Irak because of the sanctions.
One of the first things the resistance did was blow up the U.N. HQ in Baghdad. The OIC have offered to send peacekeeping troops if invited. U.N. ? Dream on.
Let me explain to you what that means. That means Muslim troops going in troops from Malaysia and Indonesia because they won’t have an axe to grind. BUT they’ll have to be invited. As far as every Iraki I know is concerned they U.N. is a wholly owned U.S.A subsidiary and therefore part of the U.S.A boot that keeps on smashing into their kids’ faces. Forget it.
Dr, Maryam is preparing us for what will be part of the blowback from this war. Unfortunately this is only the tip of the iceberg and I wonder wether or not congress and the American people are ready to deal with the situation when the Iraqi’s themselves start to relate their horrific experiences.
There is no doubt that we will have to mount an aggressive PR campaign in order to restore our credibility in the world. The question is how will congress respond (especially Republicans who have provided no oversight during the war) when Americans start demanding answers about a war that failed so badly.
Alecia-Crooks&Liars may have the video. Repeat @8pm pst..
Bwaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
We’re sorry we murdered all those civilians. We’re sorry about all the mutilated children. We’re sorry we killed 100s of thousands of people using a incendiary and our soldiers came up with a really homely name for it.
They called it “shake n’ bake” and we did it in Fallujah, and Haditha, and Mosul, and Ramadi, and Tikrit, and al-Haqlaniyah, and al-Mauttanabi, but we’re good people really please don’t despise us.
Is that the campaign you had in mind Alecia?
BigMitch @ 8
I don’t ‘member the genius; I remember the question. Do you love me as much as I love you?
Elliott @ 115
ratz, not til 9
At last night’s dinner out (about 15 people, all Kiwi’s except my husband and myself), I asked them to go around and say what they liked and disliked about the US (it was an American food night in our honour). They love most of the American people and the Grand Canyon. They hate the general ignorance of the world and self-absorption of Americans. And of course, they aren’t enamoured of Bush. “Why oh why don’t you march and demand that the government change? Why do Americans just accept this? What are you waiting for?”
Cindy Sheehan gives space for the center to move left. If she wasn’t out there getting arrested, then speaking out would look a lot more radical. I propose that we need all ranges of activism, from the arrests to the freeway bloggers, from the letters to the editors to the marchers, from the reasoned essays on fdl to the passionate mourning mothers and fathers of the dead and injured soldiers. We just need to get moving and doing the best we can think of at that moment in time, instead of debating the perfect approach.
There isn’t a perfect action or a proper strategy. It needs all of us doing visible work, regularly.
I’m a teacher. One rarely knows the results of one’s teaching. Some seeds like fallow a very long time, but then, with the right conditions, they bloom. I’m coming back to the US this week. What I do might seem useless, but I hope to at least be visible and vocal.
DrenchedOtter @ 119
Thank you….wondering why it’s not working!
Post Card From Baghdad July 23 2007
dubhaltach @ 102
I’m not sure I understand that what I said is any different than what you said, at all
Blub @ 95
I think it is more likely that atrocities happen in all wars. I was listening to a interview on CBC – I’m sorry I forget the interviewee’s name, or the name of the book he had written – but he was talking about some of the things american soldiers are doing in some of the military bases – rape of young local girls, for instance. And those are not even combat situations. I was shocked to find out in the same interview that there are over 700 American military bases overseas, in 130 countries.
KathieinMN @ 46
What about for us left coasters? Is this deal running again?
Blub @ 134
OK.. sorry for the snippy response. I want to clarify my earlier comment, which I think was completely misunderstood by several here:– I meant to say that there are a number of tactical measures that military commanders (and their political masters) can employ to ensure or direct the use of atrocity by frontline troops in a war.. these tactics include all of the things I mentiond. I did not mean to say that atrocities occur by happenstance.. they are planned and enabled by those tactical measures. If you’re confused about what I mean, take a look at the equipage and logistics instructions given to British troops in Spain during the Napoleonic wars.
Tanbark @ 78
Tankbark, as usual, You Rock!
This is what I have been trying to say, however ineloquently.
We have to be ruthless and persistent in terms of driving
that wedge between GOP & BushCo.
Yes, the impeachment movement is happening in fragments.
Open your eyes and see that it’s HAPPENING!
Don’t give up.
ATTACK ATTACK ATTAAAAAACK!
This is OUR GOVERNMENT at stake here.
We will rue the day we said it wasn’t
*bad* enough to Impeach.
Just like Hill & Co. rue the day they
thought this war wasn’t atrocious enough
to stop.
1,586 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Pachacutec and the Firepup Patriots:
For the soldier in every war, a point is reached in which some part of the moral structure of the individual is lost and can never be redeemed. When that point is reached, the individual is condemned to live out his or her days at first coming to grips with what has been lost and then, in quiet desperation, trying to protect what is left and to make amends with the history of those who did not survive the conflict. I firmly believe that war does this to societies also…and our nation has reached that point.
The corruption of war is complete for all involved…no one in our modern culture survives the corruption of war intact. Neither Iraqis no Americans will survive this horrible conflict with any claim to anything that is worth anything. Our politics and institutions of governance, our justice system, our economy and our common morality have been corrupted beyond repair.
This is why I have been calling for a mass movement of people in the streets across the country in every center of government including Washington D.C to force a political solution to the war that involves the impeachment of the executive branch and a substantial portion of the federal judiciary. The only way we make amends for the crimes of this war is through a complete acceptance of our culpability and the commitment to change the relationships of power that have lead us to this point.
The arrest of Cindy Sheehan and Ray McGovern outside Conyers office today and the response of Pelosi, is just the latest example of the process of moral and political corruption I described above. We have no choice but to mobilize to confront those elected politicians who have been given the power to confront the evil being done in our name but refuse to exercise that power.
No more strategizing, no more discussions of political tactics and certainly no more waste of energy trying create a legal solution within a completely corrupted system of justice. The cure for the terrible disease that threatens our democracy today is MORE DEMOCRACY…and that must come from the street. We must force our elected officials to commit politics and impeach the bastards one and all.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, GOD IS WATCHIN’!!!
Maryan’s words were startling but they shouldn’t have been. It is because we have been working so hard to not criticize our own troops that we have begun to buy into the worship our military creed that dominates political culture.
We are forced to remain silent about crimes committed by our troops. Part the reaction to losing the Vietnam war. This country seems to have bought into the story that the real victims of that war was the US military and not the 3.5 million dead Vietnamese or her 15 million wounded.
>And then, we have to eradicate from even the Democratic Party the belief that we have any place using force to tell people in the world what to do with their lives. . . all in the name of “liberty.”
I for one am certainly glad we didn’t take any military action to stop the slaughter in Rwanda, and I’m still upset we finally acted to stop the years of Serb atrocities in the former Yugoslavia. (Granted these weren’t questions of “libery” or even the “pursuit of happiness” but of “life.)
Iraq was a stupid move on every level and I opposed it as such from before the start. But sorry, there is no universal rule in these matters-it is always case by case.
Yes syvanen and the problem is that that makes you accomplices to genocide and other assorted war crimes. People keep on trying to say “this isn’t my war” “it’s not my government” “he’s not my president”
Well it is every American’s war because it’s American troops waging it. Carrying out the policies of successive administrations. And the last time I looked he was still your country’s president.
Until Americans start to face those facts and do something about it the old legal maxim of “silence is consent” applies.
If anybody’s still reading: on the thread last night, Siun posted this, @104:
>>
For those who would like to help, make a donation to the Red Crescent…. In the drop down menu, select Iraq Humanitarian response so your donation goes to the people working at such risk to bring help.
Here’s the URL: http://donate.ifrc.org/
>>
I did this today, and I’m going to do it again every month from now on. Seems like the least I can do.
dubhaltach @ 125
Thank you for that: this is one of the pieces I collect ~ real truths I come across and I remember them. I truly had no understanding of this tho’ I should have been able to figure it out myself.
I’m beginning to wonder, folks, if they aren’t putting the kool-aid in the tap water now.
NZ Expat @ 131
Yup: Cindy’s in the Overton window and has been from the start. When Cindy started she seemed to be the only one. Ned Lamont was important but Cindy was the beach head. And she’s still doing it and taking the heat. I will never be silent when she is criticized. I think she’s made a huge impact today no matter how much they rail against her.
Blue Dido @ 143
Thanks for that: at this point perhaps our money is best sent to Iraq rather than to dems ~ and we should tell the dems that’s how it is, too. Brutal, but moral, perhaps.
KathieinMN @ 21
Was delighted to catch Katrina live and I whooped so loud at her smackdown of *ucker the pooches and cat were somewhat alarmed. ;~)
Fern @ 135
sounds like chalmers johnson… he wrote “sorrows of empire” a few years back, which was an amazing book- eye opener…. he recently came out with “Nemesis: The Last Days of the Anerican Republic”, which I haven’t read yet, but is on my list…
it’s eye opening, especially when you consider that empire and imperialism doesn’t have to mean colonies, but still be an empire
Thanks Pach.
As John Lennon once requested, “Just give me some TRUTH!” (I guess repeating that makes me a dirty f–ing hippie. Oh well!)
We went in to “save” those poor brown-skinned, primitive Iraqis and have made their country 10x (a hundred times?) worse than it was. Estimates are near one million Iraqis dead, 4 million displaced, the economy in a shambles, etc. But it was all a “noble experiment”, we meant well . . .(Well, prob. not. The involvement of racist tribalist scum like Perle, Wolfowitz, Kristol et al in planning this war might raise a few questions about our good intentions, well if the Mighty Wurlitzer of the MSM allowed those q’s to be raised, which of course they don’t) But at least we’ve got the “internet tubes” to bring us some truth, even if the Dinos won’t do anything to impeach Mr. 25% & his gang of corrupt mass murderers & looters
*ilbo @ 45
Send them to every member of Congress and the administration.
*ilbo @ 45
And don’t forget to send them to Lockheed Martin. They manufacture depleted uranium.
Blue Dido – thank you for reposting the Red Crescent link.
Last night’s conversation was very powerful for all of us – and I am so pleased the Maryam was able to join us.
We clearly need to act – and we also can make sure that Red Crescent gets the funds to keep doing the work they are doing. They are the only organization still working throughout Iraq and reaching out to all Iraqis in need. Many Red Crescent workers have died doing this work – and US troops have been involved in actions against them as well particularly when RC workers have spoken up against atrocities. One small way we can act is to send them as much as we can so they can continue to distribute basic needs like food and water.
Rayne @ 79
Just to add to this small point. I had a Turkish student who grew up in the 90s in Baghdad, where her father had a branch of his business. She lived through the bombings of the First Gulf War. I asked her what it was like, and she said, as Maryam did, that if you kept your head down and minded your business things were generally o.k. The exceptions were more like car accidents, which can happen to anyone.
She told me the following stories, which perhaps someone with direct knowledge can confirm. The first was that people had to keep pictures of Saddam in their homes, and if the secret police happened by and didn’t find one, they were in serious trouble. The other is that on a particular day — I think it was Saddam’s birthday, they had to put a cake out on their doorsteps. The secret police would come buy and pick it up to redistribute to the poor. That’s all I recall from this particular conversation, but it struck me as entirely plausible. Iraq under Saddam was not a totalitarian state; it was a dictatorship. People should try to understand the difference, because it’s a big one. Stalin’s Soviet Union, Mao’s China and Hitler’s Germany were totalitarian.
Blub @ 67
I wonder if your choice is possible. At this time I would just settle for a fair chunk of isolationism, frankly.
dubhaltach @ 91
I’m not military, but my impression /before/ either war is that Americans have:
1) bad fire discipline
2) too much concern for their own safety over the mission.
3) are trained in ways that rip too much socialization from them (one of my friends was in the US airborne, and what they do to those boys appears qualitatively different from what many other nations do in basic training. I do know something about how you strip people down and rebuild them and I didn’t like what they did in the US – they remove too many inhibitions against violence and they deliberately alienate them from the rest of the world.)
Too gung-ho, too macho, not disciplined enough.
FDL has once again set a benchmark by bringing us this conversation. Thank you, Siun.
My revelation: Dr. Maryan’s day-to-day existence is beyond my ability to imagine. I think the only path to understanding what she endures, what she hates, is coming to the conclusion that it’s me. It’s me she endures. And she’s painfully and absolutely justified in believing just that.
BigMitch @ 26
What’s surprising about that? Since about 2003 I have seen Iraqis saying that Saddam wasn’t nearly as bad as the American occupying forces have been.
We should be deeply ashamed of ourselves, as a country.
Dr. Maryam has all the justification in the world for stating her true feelings of the ongoing criminal US invasion and occupation of an innocent nation.
Our troops are vicious killers in a land that never harmed us. Not all, no, but like Dr Maryam points out, the attitude of these troops come from the top. The VERY top. Quite an attitude to be proud of, eh America? Obviously, we are murderous oil thieves at our top levels of government, and just as obviously, we are a pampered nation too distracted to bother ending a GENOCIDE WE ARE COMMITTING. DU: the killer that keeps on killing. MAKE yourself look at a photo of a deformed Iraqi infant, go ahead, see if you can stand it.
The you tube debate was missing the BEST presidential candidate we could nominate right now. She was busy being arrested in Conyer’s office. Doing something. Forget Nancy’s job, Cindy. The City gets too windy, foggy and cold at night.
Aim for 1600 Pennsylvania.
Great post! I’m late. FYI. I read the FDA reg’s for pharma research periodically. Sometime in 2004 I noticed there was quite alot of added (what I would call) de-regulation on military pharmacologic use of experimental drugs.
21 CFR
I wish I had the time to evaluate for your readers with factual references. But I have talked to one person who did a “study” for the military who claims he did not sign an informed consent and had no idea what drug he was given.
He said he slept for a month. How reliable this person was I can’t say.
I have some suspicions.