The things that Iraqi children’s physician Dr. Maryam had to say to us all here at FDL last night have stuck in my head all day, to the point that for me to write about anything else tonight would probably be fruitless. Pach touched on the discussion earlier today, but there were some things that I would like to add to the mix.
It was sort of heartbreaking to watch our earnest, sincere readers come rushing into the fray insisting that they’re (we’re) nice Americans who want to stop the war, but to a woman like Maryam, who has been dealing with the consequences of American imperialism since the first round of American bombings in 1991, there are no nice Americans. Democrats or Republicans, we are all complicit in what has amounted to genocide.
As I am an Iraki and as my job is to treat children maimed and deformed by the weapons your country uses and then prevented me from getting the medicines used to treat those cancers you will forgive me if I tell you that you too are telling lies to yourself. What we know is that when it comes murdering Iraki civilians that there is no difference between the cynical and corrupt party called the Democrats and the cynical and corrupt party called the Republicans. Both are infected with the belief that America has the right to behave as it wishes especially when the people being killed are not white.
For more on the children “maimed and deformed” by U.S. depleted uranium weapons, go here.
The American media have shielded us from the truth about the awful consequences of our repeated campaigns of aggression against Iraq, but the information is out there. But we in America have been busy, you know, going to work, getting groceries, dropping our kids off at summer camp, shopping for something to make for dinner.
We tell ourselves that we’re doing all we can about the War in Iraq, and yet, clearly we haven’t done enough because it’s still going on. In truth, we’re all sitting at our computers massaging our collective feelings of mild guilt and anxiety while on the other side of the planet, a bunch of people just like us have been bombed out of their homes and their entire society has been reduced to chaos and carnage.
I suppose if we’d thought about it harder at the outset, we would have seen the fact that the president’s Great War on Terror in, in truth, a War on Civilians. The kind of death, lawlessness, and suffering we are seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan is the inevitable result of what happens when you send an army out to fight civilians.
By definition, terrorists are civilians. No matter how organized and well-armed they may or may not be, they are not members of an army. Armies were only made to fight other armies. Sending the military out to fight whole nations of civilian militias is a recipe for failure and catastrophe. There is no honor for a soldier to kill civilians, only ignominy and disgrace, which is where we are now in Iraq.
Our legacy in Iraq can probably be summed up most clearly by Dr. Maryam’s 16-year-old nephew, who has lost his father, brother, and several members of his extended family in this conflict:
O God! Pardon our living and our dead, the present and the absent, the young and the old, the males and the females.
I am a Muslim I am Iraki.
what america does to irakis especially to our children
Do not come to me talking of your feelings. Do not come to me asking for forgiveness. Who do you think you are?
I will not ever forgive or forget what your country has done to us. I will not ever forget or forgive what your country has done my family, my city, my country, my people.
Never.
My grandchildren’s, grandchildren, will teach their grandchildren to hate America for what she has done to us. Never ever ever will I, or they, forget or forgive what your barbaric country has done to us.
Never.
Congratulations, America. This is what our apathy and ineffectiveness have bought us in this smashing little war. Way to win those hearts and minds.
We’re all a part of this. We have not done enough. We have not spoken out when we should have. We have taken the easy way and as a result, we are all complicit to war crimes. For every day that we hem and haw and our elected representatives play tiddly-winks with each other in Congress, more and more and more people die. More children are orphaned. More mothers watch their children suffer and die for lack of food, medicine, and clean water.
I want to thank Siun for bringing Maryam to us so that we might experience some unvarnished, un-spun truth about the Iraq War. It has not been easy to hear, but it is something that we must know going forward. The blood of the Iraqi people is on our hands. So what are we going to do about it?
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zed
ZED!
Oh, pooh.
Sorrow
Hi Al!
TRex!!!
Hi TRex.
This sounds depressing.
We have to end this war before any more kids or families or people get hurt. NOW!
That is powerful writing on a very painful subject. The blood on our hands indeed.
I, for one, am ashamed.
you asked the question. Shall I Wait for the answer?
Evening all. A very powerful and honest post TRex.
EvilDrPuma @ 9
Makes two of us.
EvilDrPuma @ 9
Me too and I wasn’t even born when the first war started in 91.
Now to read… hi Suzanne, painful indeed.
Thanks, TRex.
(Lucky you! You didn’t have to follow with Sunday Late Nite.)
SnarKassandra @ 13
Maybe you remember, maybe you don’t, that when the current fiasco started back in ‘03, some on the right wing tried out the slogan “Give War A Chance.”
Now, I’m an archaeologist, and there’s some perspective that comes from that. By the most conservative definition of “war” that I can come up with, it has already had roughly five thousand years worth of almost continuous chances. Why did these morons expect it to start working now, all of a sudden?
I want to know ONE THING that everyone is going to do tomorrow to end this war.
I’m going to call my Senator (ick) Saxby Chambliss and whisper sweet nothings to him about eroding Republican support for the war and the fact that his seat is vulnerable in the next election.
What are you going to do?
Trex – thank you for continuing the conversation and for speaking clear and true.
Our shame is not only did we do this but that we can never undo it. We can’t restore lives or rebuild their cities the way they were. We can’t give them back a sense of peace or even hope. We allowed ancient places to be ruined and their heritage to be destroyed. They will still hate us in 100 years or 1000 years. Those countries have long memories and they should.
TeddySanFran @ 15
I did not moderate that thread but it was very rough on the mods also. Emotional threads always are but Siun’s thread touched a guilty nerve I didn’t realize was there.
Unfortunately it is going to probably get worse. We aren’t going to be able to get out for two years and that’s assuming we start now.
And when we leave I don’t think violence will subside, but rather increase exponentially. First off, all iraqis who cooperated with us are dead and they know it. Denmark evacuated their iraqi assistants in the dead of night (apparently with families) and will give them all temp visas until they can get permanent ones or get set up elsewhere.
So if you think things are bad now, just wait. And once the Turks, Saudis, and Iranians plus Syrians and foreign fighters add their contribution, Iraq will make Beirut and the first major Lebanese civil war look like disneyland.
TeddySanFran @ 15
Actually your late night post worked out okay – good thing it was not a snarkorama – that would have been a bit of a jolt. And the conversation was well handled.
SnarKassandra @ 13
I am also ashamed, but even more I am angry that this is being done in my name and against my will. I am even angrier that nothing I do seems sufficient to stop this madness, that the people with the power to end this will not act.
We must start by removing those, all of those, who have prosecuted this war from their positions of power and privilege. Then we must hold them personally, each and every one, accountable for the consequences of their actions. We need a second Nuremberg and we need it now.
I will start writing “End the War” posts on my blog.
TRex @ 17
I’m going to stop by Dianne Feinstein’s SF office and ask her to end this horrible occupation of Irak. And, to honor the sacrifices of Maryam’s people, I am going to start spelling the country’s name right.
Sheeit, T. US Imperialists? Say it ain’t so. Why my goodness, we only have the Taliblangelicals who want to make the Victorian Era look like the Reformation, a Preznit who thinks that the four faces on Mt Rushmore are his daddy, St. Ronnie, George Wallace and him and a group of Sycophants around him who make Hitlers inner circle look like pathetic amateurs.
What was that line from the Blues Brothers? “We’re on a Mission From God”… too bad it was funny when Belushi and Ackroyd used it. It’s lost it’s charm since 2001.
I weep for the generations yet unborn, both Iraqi and American who will pay the butchers bill for the idiocracy of the American Right.
DrDick @ 23
Oh Dr (pause) Dick what a lovely thought! and we must remember to include the business types who have profiteered off of the madness (Blackwater, Haliburton, etc.)
My now thats a question, I did not start the horror show ( but as an American I carry its stain) I seem to be unable to stop the war (or our part in it). I can’t use my limited skills to help, except to be that noisy dog that barks at night (but that only keeps people awake at night while the powerful sleep). Guess that makes me the same damned soul I was in the 60′ and 70’s, only with a computer, an internet connection and a bit of snark.
Siun @ 18
Thank you, Siun, and thank Maryam for speaking her truth to us here.
wangdangdoodle @ 3
Perhaps you should switch to water for a bit. Huh?
I’m a municipal gov’t employee, and as such I’m prohibited from demonstrating or otherwise speaking out during work hours and on county property. But I can sure use my hour break tomorrow to make some phone calls (from my cell) to the offices of Webb, Warner and Wolf.
Thanks to Dr Maryam.
Thanks to Siun.
and thanks to you Trex for bringing us back to Maryam’s truth -
and the true horror of America’s sanctions, invasion, and occupation.
I respect Dr. Maryam’s suffering and the emotional toll it must take on her. What the Republican party has done is awful; they owe her and her country an apology. I also think it’s important for us to know that there are people who think like she does. But I cannot remotely respect her views. She grossly overgeneralizes us in ways we would not accept from our own right wing. Many of us opposed the war, voted for candidates who opposed the war, and are doing what we can in our own ways to try to bring it to an end. To call us all racist murderers and announce that the two parties are identical and equally corrupt – what purpose did that serve here? What did that add to our knowledge except the knowledge that there are people who hate us because of what George Bush has done. What he has done is abominable; but it is not something I – or many of my fellow progressives – did, nor is it useful to her cause to call us racist murderers.
LoudounLib @ 31
Good on ya!
Amy Robertson @ 33
Fine.
So prove her wrong and get off your ass and do something.
althespook @ 27
I specifically include all of the war profiteers, all of the pundits who promoted this abomination, and all of the media executives who have pushed it as well. I would also include all of the politicians of any party who have not forcefully opposed what was clearly a naked act of aggression.
Amy Robertson @ 33
She’s on the receiving end of this, far more than you are. Her broad brush is perfectly comprehensible and, to me, eminently forgivable under the circumstances. You and I owe her proof of our good faith, not vice versa.
Suzanne – our moderator last night was wonderful.
And we only had one comment that needed attention and that was a autofilter thing that he quickly cleared. But having such good mods as you and yur comrades makes posts that challenge us possible. Thanks for all you do.
The real job is educating the rest of America who have not been jarred out of complacency by a Maryam. And they won’t thank you for it. It will make them feel guilty, and no one likes to feel that way. Any ideas on how to deliver a message that this country does not want to hear?
File this under “no shit, Sherlock”.
I don’t mean to make light of this at all – on the contrary. I’m glad people are beginning to learn and to understand.
But this is WHAT WAR IS. That’s why so many of us have opposed this war.
Because we UNDERSTAND that dropping a bomb on a neighborhood halfway around the world is NO DIFFERENT that dropping a bomb on your own neighbor.
I wish Cindy Sheehan was running in the primary to challenge Nancy Pelosi. I wonder why she’s not? I would help her if she was.
TRex @ 17
I’ll write to mine, Hutchison and Cornyn. For all the good it will do.
And I will put on my marching shoes and I will be at every protest, every vigil, every peace march, every taking-of-the-bridge that comes up in Austin from here on out.
And I will print out and laminate the picture that Maryam posted last night of that poor, beautiful, legless baby and I will carry it with me and I will show it to everyone who tells me that they just can’t be concerned with this war. In fact, I’m going to plaster it on every restroom wall I visit every day until I die. They will never forgive us.
And why should they?
argosfalcon @ 28
I will continue to speak out against this war. I will continue to harass my senators to end this war (my congress critter is a lost cause Bushevik). I will give money to candidates who support ending the war and withhold all support from those who do not. Will it make a difference? I have no idea, but I can do no less.
I think half the kids at my school don’t even know we’re still in an occupation/war/whatever.
The only way we can even start to recover the world’s respect for the US is to take the people responsible — Bush, Cheney, etc. — take them to war crimes trials, and after they’re convicted, execute them.
Really, anything short of that and the world will still consider the US complicit.
Amy Robertson @ 33
Ditto. This is the Neocon’s war. The blood is on their hands, and they must be held accountable. I refuse to cower in guilt for what they have done and we have opposed.
What I wrote about this war, back in February 2003, and sent to the WH as part of the ‘virtual march’:
I’d say ‘I told you so’, but he doesn’t hear things like that.
SnarKassandra @ 45
they will when facing the swarm of military recruiters as they approach 18.
You’re right, TRex, we’re all complicit regardless of our stances and views, it has still happened in our name!
Heartbreaking.
On another subject – Judy Miller was on NY1, the local cable news network here in NYC, tonight. Dominic Carter, who was interviewing her, spent a nauseating amount of time praising her for epitomizing journalistic values in her willingness to go to jail for nearly three months to protect her source. I tuned in partway through the interview, which went on for over 10 minutes.
Judy, of course, said she had no regrets about her conduct – except, of course, that there is not a federal journalist shield law. According to Judy, it’s desperately needed – and it’s not really a journalist shield law so much as a “public right to know” shield law (protecting the public’s right to know leaked information, I suppose, not who’s illegally outing CIA agents). Apart from that, she refused to comment on the commutation of Libby’s sentence while he’s still appealing his convictions, and said that she very much wants to go back to Iraq to see how things are going (acknowledging that her experience as an imbedded reporter in the Kurdish-controlled northern region had been “misleading” – her experience, not her reporting).
40s/50’s ersatz country music. Dorothy Shay and the Beverly Hills Hillbillies:
Is there blooood upon your hands?
Do you daily take his holy name in vain?
By the very acts you do, do you crucify him too?
In this evil like you never cleanse your hands?
SnarKassandra @ 45
Of course they don’t. Apart from the greater number of recruiting tricks handed to the military by No Child Left Behind, this administration has done exactly nothing to give them a personal contact with what’s going on. They don’t even get pictures of flag-draped coffins, let alone pictures of Iraqi children suffering inconceivable pain and grief.
CTuttle @ 50
ding. the blood is on our hands because we are americans and this has been done in our name.
Amy Robertson @ 33
The fact that she is a degreed pediatric oncologist gave me pause and still does. I suspect not too many non-baathists got those credentials before we invaded in 2003; however, i’ll be happy to be shown I’m wrong.
If she is an ex-baathist, then that may be a factor in her problems with continuing her work. Ahmed Chalabi (member him, the neocon’s favorite to replace saddam?) controls the de-baathification bureau and is essentially dog in the manger-ing it.
And some of the things she said sounded not like an outraged iraqi doctor and mother who’d lost so many in the horror, but more like rhetoric heard on various media outlets in the region, outlets supporting the sunni recapturing of Iraq. Remember her comment of how we were “already defeated”? That’s the sunni resurgence main theme.
I don’t want to diminish her contributions to the conversation at all. clearly many of the things she said rang true. but the little oddities on the side plus her total hateful rudeness to all of us worry me.
Dr Maryam’s nephew’s vow that his grandchildren’s grandchildren will teach his grandchildren to hate America made me realize that this new re-branding plan is, well, entirely futile fuckery. We need to get out of Irak, and that region. We must tend our own affairs for a long, long, long time. And then wait a generation or two before voicing our opinion about anyone else’s country’s business.
You know I went through this in another war, and could find no peace and it took 30 years for a small amount of good to come out of it. In the mid 70’s the progressive movement shattered and in some ways turn against it self. Now all these years later this type of war is back, but in a way I would never have dreamed possible. I could go on but whats the point, I fought in the war and fought against it then and now to old and broken to do much more the silently weep.
TRex @ 17
Won’t make a difference. Saxby is a dead-ender. He even had Cheney in here last week clogging up traffic and raising money.
I admire you for trying…among other things.
Then prove it. Words are cheap.
We already have recruiters. But the further east you go, the poorer the people and the more recruiters. And the further west, only a few.
TeddySanFran @ 42
She met a warm welcome in our city auditorium a few months back and if she runs I am sure many from Eureka Springs will support her campaign.
Tomorrow, I will write or call
The Speaker and Conyers
Leader Reid
Wed. I will call or write
Senators Pryor and Lincoln
and Congressman Boozeman
SnarKassandra @ 44
That’s one reason your blog is so important cassie. please keep it going and getting better. When the really bad news starts to come home in the msm you can point your friends and their friends to your blog and say “we knew that long ago and told anyone who would listen.” It will make a difference.
TRex @ 58
Prove it? To you?
Suzanne @ 49
If Cassie’s school takes federal funds, all the students’ contact information goes to the military. Thanks, Senator Vitter, for that amendment to NCLB.
TRex @ 17
SnarKassandra @ 59
The Economic Draft. Trickle Down Economics at its finest.
DrDick @ 23
Amen, Dr.Dick.
There must be accountability for these crimes.
EvilDrPuma @ 53
And more to the point, there is no draft which would definitely bring it home to them and keep it at the forefront of their minds. Because it does not directly affect then for the most part, they ignore it. The media and the politicians make this easy by censoring the shocking reality of war. This is clearly deliberate. Cheney learned at least one lesson from Viet Nam. I know seeing the horrifying images from Viet Nam on TV and in the papers every day had an impact. so to did the fear that I might be forced to live that. It was made much more concrete when my first friend came home in a box in my junior year of high school. For my generation the war was up close and personal and it mattered.
TeddySanFran @ 63
He Depends on these sort of things.
Suzanne @ 54
And because we have not stopped it.
Sorry, this is from EPU land, but, if any other names pop into your heads, contact me!!!
TeddySanFran @ 200
CT 129 — great news! Please also ask Senator Akaka’s staff about Eric Edelman, who wrote the snotty letter to Hillary Clinton saying that she was providing enemy propaganda pointers by asking about withdrawing troops from Iraq. He’s overstayed his recess appointment as UnderSecDef as well.
Way to go, man!
I was going to ask about Edelman, I wasn’t sure if he fell within the Advise and Consent of the Senate, so I refrained from citing his role! However, they assured me they’ll be contacting me in the morrow, I shall raise his role then! If any other names arise in anybody’s mind send me a little synopsis at my email address which is posted on my facebook profile!!!
SnarKassandra @ 59
True that. If there is a draft for this ill-begotten war, it won’t be fought by the Westlake football team. Lanier? Yes.
CTuttle @ 70
we need every firepup who can to check the appointment date of their least favorite chimpy quisling. I’m gonna work as many as i can tonight and as soon as it get up tomorrow. Lets give the man plenty of ammo!
Amy Robertson @ 33
I don’t know. Sometimes I find myself calling all Republicans fascist thugs, when I know that some aren’t. I usually feel so helpless in the face of the intransigence of the president and the feckless democrats that this kind of rage seems appropriate.
I remember thinking in the late 90’s and especially in the run-up to the war that there was no reason to invade because the sanctions were putting so much stress on the Irakis. What seemed like stress to me was life and death to Maryam. Her words really hurt, because I didn’t actually see a clear reason why she wasn’t right.
Can’t hang. Good night all-the best of all possible tomorrows to you all.
This horrid war puts the lie to all of Bush’s moronic ramblings about “history” too.
You know damn well that he’s reading books that shitheel guru Rove shove’s in front of his chimplike face and says “read this”, it’s history.
A student of history would have known that going into Iraq was a pandora’s box and not a candy and sweets shop.
At least Bush is taking solace in Bill Kristol’s latest fluffing work. One day Bush’s veil of stupidity will blow away long enough for him to see himself for the monster that he is. That is what happened for a brief, fleeting moment during the Katrina debacle, in my opinion.
-GSD
RonD @ 74
night RonD!
g’night Ron
We bomb our own soil and waters and leave radioactive waste for generations to clean up. What are the reptilian greedheads visioning for their progeny? We bomb people of the world, Afghanis, Irakis, Japanese, and Vietnamese(all non-white cultures) and expect the world to love ‘our’ way of life. Is this some think tanks result of social engineering? Well, it was the new reality, and when ‘it’ said after 911, to ‘go shopping’ it signified the end of this country’s dream. Maube this country could have some sort of shopping spree lottery lead by those brave congress people into the shopping mecca of Irak. Degenerates!
Reading Maryam’s words last night stunned me. I thought I understood the full evil of what we have done to those people, but of course, sitting here pampered and protected in my own home with water and air conditioning and food I cannot begin to imagine the horror of living in Iraq. As a nurse, the thought of treating the sick and wounded in the conditions she described left me sleepless last night. I think that now it will be even more difficult for me to listen to the posturing and outright lies we are being fed to us by our government and our media. She is right. This has been done in our name, and it does not matter that we opposed this misbegotten war and occupation or not. The blood of countless Iraqi men, women and children has been spilled by Americans. They want us gone, and that is the very least we can do. May God have mercy on our souls that we won’t even do that.
Hmm. I should check up on the guy that took over after Margaret Chiara got the axe here in GR. I dont’ think there ever was an offical appointment and confirmation of that guy for this, after she left.
I believe those with Reichwing Cheney dead-enders as Senators and Congresspersons should make a special effort now, and to possible good result. Why?
Not to convince the officeholders, who probably are either blackmailed or bribed or believers; to convince the staffers. Hearing over and over from those of you who will talk to your neighbors, friends, and co-workers about their opponent — how the current officeholder did nothing but enable this horrible war — will scare the staffers that they might lost their jobs. When enough staffers face the officeholder with the deer-in-the-headlights look of pending unemployment, things might start to change. Might.
Just a thought (and one that generates no more work for me, thankfully).
goodnight RonD – sleep well!
I grew up feeling scorn for the German people because they allowed their country to be run/used by sociopaths for death and destruction.
I knew that Americans would never stand for that.
How horrid to learn It Can Happen Here and it is happening here.
allthespook –
You are trying to find excuses for not hearing Maryam – and you try to colour her with “ex-baathist” or perhaps “sunni propagandist” – you are very far from accurate.
Dubhaltach answered the question of Maryam’s background in Pach’s thread:
TRex @ 35
I don’t owe her a proof but fwiw, I am not on my ass; I am a civil rights lawyer.
Also fwiw, helluva way to delurk. Sorry – I’m not good at nuance. I love this site and TRex, I adore your writing. I just took enormous offense at being called a murderous racist alongside Bush & Rumsfeld.
*ilbo @ 78
Ah, I concur with ya, but, let’s not forget Dresden, etal… ;-)
wangdangdoodle @ 72
As a friend of mine who served in Viet Nam once observed, it was amazing just how brown and/or southern and poor everyone else over there was. He was a middle class white kid from Long Island with no sense (his analysis, not mine).
And now, if you speak out publically against this, the King can take your house and lands, and throw you into the street, and do the same to anyone who helps you. We lost the republic a long time ago.
Maybe we should add Pelosi to the list of people to impeach. She’s just about useless.
I, for one, believe that if the Congress takes a spring recess, the King will lock the doors and say that they are no longer necessary. Tell me, someone, what are they gonna do. The king might even send his lackies to burn down the halls of congress. That’s what the Furher did in Germany. It has happened here.
Night RonD. Sleep well.
althespook @ 69
Actually, our school system changed the form. When you go in to register, they explain very carefully what happens if you check YES and what if you check NO.
And they let anti-recruiters set up in the school cafeteria on the same day that the military recruiters set up.
I’ve gone through the posts as best I can, and it seems no one has called Maryam a ‘troll’ for this statement, a patiently explained why One Must Always Vote for the Party of the Least Worst, No Matter What.
I have a suggestion that may suit your mood after some reflection on the terrible suffering inlicted on the Iraqi people since 1991, throughout Bill Clinton’s term, when his Secretary of state, Madelaine Allbright said she thought the deaths by sanction of 100,000 Iraqi children were “worth it”… then amplified inconceivably by Bush’s idiotic attack in 2003, when the (D) controlled Senate voted in favor
with only living fossil Robert Byrd in strenuous, principled opposition.
my suggestion is to read through some of the articles and archives at
Arthur Silbur’s powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/ and then ponder whether you think the (D) party is worth unswerving, unquestioning support, or whether you are willing to roll the dice on a 3rd, or rather, 2nd political Party, in the twilight of this country.
Amy, Welcome to the Lake – once delurked it is been shown to be very hard to go back.
What some will read in these remarks is that Iraqis will pose a danger to us for at least a couple more generations.
Looking at the tone of the blogs I believe it is quite safe to say that we need a solid direction for our collective voices to be heard by the people we have elected to represent our interests. My thought is to make them, the progressives and wanna look likes in Congress, more afraid of us than they are of the Rethugs and Corporate media. As for myself, when Cindy Sheehan announces her intention to run against Nancy Pelosi tomorrow I intend to start contributing all I can each and every month between now and the primaries. The one currency of politics is cash and if Cindy amasses a good sized war chest for her run, Pelolsi and others will take note and hopefully see their own storm clouds gathering and conclude that if they want a future in politics they had damn well better start listening to their constituents.
I’m glad you stayed with this subject tonight, TRex. We really can’t hear too much about it as long as we continue to occupy Iraq.
I hadn’t realized that Maryam is herself an Iraq Occupation widow at the hands of Americans (or that her own family is intermingled Shi’ite and Sunni). It’s a wonder that she was able to put her feelings into words at all.
If her words sting, please convey that sting as directly and pointedly as possible to your Members of Congress however you can (I’m sending faxes), in honor of both our Iraqi victims and those in jail tonight who traveled to Washington, D.C. to try to do the same in person, face to face with those who are honored to wield OUR power as OUR representatives in OUR federal legislature.
[My approach in these faxes, since I no longer feel “represented” in the least in Congress and no longer see any point in ‘pleading the cause’ - especially with the likes of Conyers who damn well knows better - is to point out that they are NOT representing me, that I know that and that I know that they don’t care that they are ignoring the people, but I will NOT silently stand by as they do so. I’m writing to tell them that they are knowingly, openly, and flagrantly violating their oaths of office and willfully ignoring their constituents, but that this American does NOT approve and will continue to condemn this behavior until I can vote them out of office, whatever their depraved excuses for inaction may be. They will not receive the benefit of silence from me.]
All those “Good Germans” protested loudly that the Nazis weren’t THEIR government, weren’t THEIR leaders, weren’t THEM, too. The world didn’t much care, did it? And we still have more of a functioning democracy than Germany did by the time Hitler had consolidated power, so we have even less excuse for such protestations.
Words won’t rehabilitate us, any more than they did the “Good Germans.” Only actions count now. If Conyers and Pelosi and Reid and Feingold (and every other Member of Congress) won’t listen to us and ACT, we (those who are physically and financially able, which I know many aren’t) must occupy their offices in person until the occupation of Iraq has ended. Full stop.
SnarKassandra @ 91
You realize that you’re only confirming my opinion that Austin isn’t really part of Texas, don’t you?
Splicer @ 94
I think quite the reverse is true. The policies of this administration will echo for many years – and we will be considered the dangerous country.
Ugh. That’s all I’ve got. Ugh.
SnarKassandra @ 90
Hi Cassie,
Have you seen the video (I’m sorry I don’t remember the name of the guy who did it, but it’s creating quite the internet buzz) where College Republicans are interviewed about the Occupation and their gung-ho attitude that evaporates when asked if they have enlisted?
If so, do you talk to your schoolmates about it? I don’t mean to spotlight you…I’m curious if there are kids like that at your school…all gung ho, but queuing up at the anti-recruiters table…
or it is simply, hey, i’m not interested in the military, later.
What’s the talk like at these tables?
cynic, your email address and your screen name appear to be reversed in the boxes below the submit comment box.
can you switch em back so your email address doesn’t show up as your name while commenting :)
EvilDrPuma @ 96
A liberal oasis in a vast redneck wasteland.
This is one link to an opt-out form (Re: miltary recruiters and NCLB)
Opt Out
Amy Robertson @ 85
Amy:
The blood is on all of our hands.
When you leave the safety of your office and follow the Marla Ruziki’s of this world to Iraq, then some of that blood will come off your hands. Meanwhile, you can thank God that you did not go over there and participate. Some of us made that mistake in Vietnam, and we have never forgiven ourselves.
[Mod Note; please switch your email and screen name in the comment entry boxes so we do not need to keep switching them for you. Thanks.]
Fuck no. I’m just a goddamn blogger.
Prove it to the administration. Prove it to the Iraki people. Prove it to God. It’s not me that needs to be convinced by a long shot.
do-si-do @ 99
Max Blumenthal (Generation Chickenhawk)
Hi, MP. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
Sorry, but nobody here knows what I have or haven’t done, what I have or haven’t said, what I have or haven’t sacrificed, and what I have or haven’t achieved with regards to ending the war in Iraq.
As such, NOBODY here is going to make me complicit to war crimes.
wangdangdoodle @ 101
i’ll drink to that.
I agree with those who refuse to accept this war as ours. It isn’t mine. It isn’t mine anymore than anything Saddam did belonged to every Iraqi.
You ask, “what are you going to do tomorrow to stop the war,” and people say things like “I’m going to put ‘Stop the War’ on my blog.” I can just imagine what this doctor’s reaction to THAT might be.
But here’s the hard and fast truth: There is not a damn thing any of us can do about it. What could any Iraqi do about Saddam? What can any North Korean do about Kim Jong Il? What can anyone do about a runaway dictatorship of a government?
I’m sorry, but no. This is not my fault. And anyone in the world who hates me or would harm me or anyone I love because of what Bush has done … that person has no moral standing, either. I would not harm anyone for what their country or their leader did.
Flame away. But don’t tell me or this doctor that you’re going to make phone calls. Because that isn’t going to change her mind or Bush’s.
The war is only one part of the much larger conspiracy to un-do our Constitutional Democracy. With the increasing disregard for the Constitution and the Rule of Law by the Republican Party, I now have the feeling that they have no intention of giving up power in ‘09. The latest pronouncements that the Admin. has immunity if the WH says so, and the Exec Order allowing freezing of assets without legal due process, is especially worrisome. I think this increasing, in your face, disregard for the law is due to fact that the
Roberts court is going to back them up.
I don’t know how to stop this other than to keep the heat on the Dems to push for confrontation at every point. The bottom line is, if we have elections in ‘08 we really need to pick up 11 Senate seats.
OOPS.
A Bazillion pardons.
gotta go, y’all, work beckons on the morrow. I can’t wait to start burning up some phone lines.
Peace…
TRex @ 103
Hi TRex,
Rockin’ post, but, i’m at a loss…truly. All (I think) I have are words, a little money, and a vote. Oh, and I have a phone and I use my big girl voice and more words. Am I missing something?
Peace.
g’nite ll
Suzanne @ 92
Thanks, Suzanne. It’s an amazing community.
Cindy Sheehan is the epitome of the TRex mantra: ATTACK! ATTAAAKK! AATTTAACCKKKKKK!!!
Fantastically sad post TRex. Thanks to Pach and you for keeping the Maryam story at the forefront, and tomorrow I’m going to donate to Blue America candidate Jon Powers’ group here: http://www.warkidsrelief.org/
Maryam’s rage is a classic example of why wars of agression never work in the long term. An eye for an eye leaves us all blind.
If we were being attacked, of course we should defend, and that’s why it’s called the Dept of Defense and should be supported. Obviously this is not the case in any of our generation’s “wars.”
All is not lost, and like Japan, Germany, and even Vietnam, we can make amends. How did this happen in these other cases? I think because of us trying to make things right…leaving those countries to rebuild themselves the way they want to…and just a genuine hand extended in kindness.
You can kill or greatly reduce terrorism worldwide. It’s quite simple.
You kill them with kindness.
Night LL. Keep America safe from Dubya.
Have you paid taxes over the last five years?
You’ve been helping to bankroll Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and the occupation of Iraq. You are complicit because you helped sign the checks.
Look, we are all on the same side here. Maryam’s dialogue last night has obviously touched a nerve. I know it opened my eyes. But can we stop sniping at each other please?
Thanks you.
I’m going to cry myself to sleep again.
Good night, good people.
Amy Robertson @ 115
Hiya Amy.
argosfalcon @ 56
You did this, it is something. Opinion and the force of will for an entire people is not something to be changed overnight. Perhaps, here, we preach to the choir but, in my life, FDL reinforces my convictions and colors the conversations I have with everyone else I meet. It is something.
A woman who deals with pain and suffering may not ever see beyond that; and we, who do not deal in those terms, may never be able to understand her pain. She may never forgive our country, and perhaps should not ever be expected to — certainly not if we don’t do anything to alter the course.
A sixteen year old boy might be different. Sixteen year olds say and think things that change as they grow; but, again, who is to say what the trauma and loss of a war would do to such a tender age? Perhaps it would create a zealot, bent on destruction. Would that be so impossible. Our culture produces such individuals merely by allowing apathy and misdirected anger going unchecked, like the terrible situations in Columbine and, more recently, Virginia Tech. Imagine a boy, a boy of similar age, with a true landscape of horror to experience. Could anyone expect the outcome to be much better. By the same token; youth is sometimes more elastic. The same sixteen year olds who felt similar trauma as a Vietnamese citizen might now be a professional gambler on the World Poker Tour. Who knows.
The only thing for sure is change. And the only thing I know for sure is that this administration and their insane war needs to change. Some of us have believed it all along and it doesn’t take being slapped in the face with the realities and ramifications of this fiasco to solidify those beliefs. What it takes is the conviction to act upon them.
Siun @ 84
Siun, with all respect, I heard her just fine. What you may have forgotten is that i spent my adult life working out how to do far far worse to the soviets and learning from all the horrors we committed in vietnam and other places how easy it was for “us” to be no better than the enemy. If you resent my civilian employment by the us military I’m sorry. I felt it was job that needed doing and I’m proud I did it and that we as a unit succeeded because the war was never fought.
And as I keep saying, whether or not she is an ex-baathist now supporting a renewed sunni-baathist takeover is of no relevance to the terrible facts she has reminded us about.
Why it *does* matter is that it explains her inexcusable rudeness and outright verbal violence against a group of internet listeners who only wanted to help her. She has the “right” to paint with a broad brush? No, I’m afraid not. No one does. We have to get it exactly right or it doesn’t work.
Let me give you a nasty example. Her father was Sunni, as was her husband. Why didn’t she go out and fight against the slaughter of the Kurds or the Marsh Shia? How about the atrocities of Chemical Ali? If we are all fascist murderers for our inability to personally stop the madness of king george, then why isn’t she a murderess for failing to stop those atrocities? Do iraqi lives snuffed by sadam “mean less” because we didn’t kill them? I doubt it. We don’t paint her with this easily available brush, so why should she be allowed a pass just because we’ve been unable to stop chimpy just as she and her associates were unable to stop saddam?
I have hesitated for a full day to bring this up. But I just don’t like what I’m seeing here. And I’m glad DubHalTach knew her, that alleviates many of my worries about the situation. But his post doesn’t address my question which is was she a member of the baath party and if not how did she get her degree? The sunni/shia questions were a polite way to try to elicit that information. It is hardly a mark of shame to be a baathist particularly back then. But it does bear on her comments and i think that is important.
The first time I lived in Southeast Asia we were still in Vietnam. While I and my friends, family and network spent much of our resources actively protesting the war, in the eyes of the Southeast Asians I was tainted with the same brush as General Curtis LaMay. When I was introduced as an American in Malaysia, the Malay would tell me Americans were bombing Vietnam and Laos. They would add “people just like Malay people”. They identified with those suffering from our warring, not with me the peace keeper. In Bali the people would tell me, “Just like Bali. The same. Same people as Bali”. Then they would describe what napalm does to the Vietnamese people.
Every act by this administration is done in our name and by that alone it makes us complicit by default if nothing else. My action against this war/occupation is passive by comparison to the Iraqis because I operate within a zone of comfort. I can choose when to take action according to my work, family and social schedule. This is not an option to the people in the war zone.
Yes, if we are walking this planet at this moment in time, we are no less responsible for the continued war in Iraq than this administration and congress. I have the luxury to admonish my representatives and shout at our leaders. But that is like throwing wilted feathers at them.
Sending petitions via the Internet is so much easier than spending an uncomfortable day marching in a demonstration, side by side, with like minded citizens. Making a phone call to my senators costs me nothing. When last did I visit my representative and senators and speak directly to them and/or their aides? It’s been years.
The Internet is a double edge sword. And, what has been my sacrifice today? Nothing!
Let us remember that as we discuss this the world is witnessing both Democrats and Republicans saying that ‘all options are on the table’ for Iran.
The are reading opinion pieces stating that people here are “praying” for George W. Bush to bomb Iran.
They are watching web videos of the former Republican front runner singing “bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, Iran”.
They are listening to Bush talk about attacking Pakistan.
The are watching Bush amp up the arms race with Russia by talk of new missiles on their regional doorstep.
They are listening to “anti-war” Democrats like Sen. Clinton talking about leaving residual troops in Iraq(residual is 50,000 to Hillary).
They are listening to “anti-war” Democrats like Barak Obama say that he wants to spend more and increase the size of the US military.
They are watching US supplied weapons kill Lebanese Arabs.
They are watching US gunships hitting targets in Somalia.
They are hearing US offers to help the Thai government take on their Islamic insurgency.
They are hearing so-called religious leaders calling for the assassination of Hugo Chavez.
They think the US has gone fuvking warmongeringly bat-shit crazy.
-GSD
yellowdog jim @ 108
Cheers, glad to see you made it home through today’s rain bomb! G’night.
cindy sheehan: prophecy with a human face.
that’s all.
and I didn’t read the Iraqui drs. comments but it’s definitely a good german thing.
and I saw SICKO tonight.
and found it quite brilliant. Moore at his best.
Superb post, TRex. I will contact Senators Nelson and Martinez tomorrow.
Maryam’s words sting and burn and ignite, as they should. With heat comes light.
Thank you for reminding us what happens when we “other” a group of human beings–how quickly we forget!
I haven’t been hanging around FDL for a long time, but I am glad that I stopped back in to see this post by TRex. I’ve been hanging around the halls of congress and the White House lawn for the last few months, trying to get our politicians and the American people to start to take some responsibility for the tragic mess we have created. The realizations that TRex seems to have come to after the discussions with Iraqis are what more and more Americans are going to have to come to terms with over the coming years. Of course, much of our political leadership will be trying to sell us a lot of “blame the Iraqis” rhetoric, and the media will never really accept the humiliation that they deserve for their promotion of this war, but each of us, as responsible adults, needs to take more responsibility for the mess. We did invade another country. We all share in the failure. Those of us who opposed the invasion failed to stop it. Those of us in favor of the invasion failed to understand the horror of the possible outcomes. Those of us who were ambivalent about it failed to recognize that war is a hell of a lot more important than American Idol. Failure. Not defeat, not victory, just failure.
A year ago, when I was spending more time here at the lake, I begged you all to come to DC in September to help stop the war. This August, your representatives will be home, taking a vacation from the occupation. Get on over to their offices and tell ‘em to stop the war!! Come to DC in September!! We can do it!!
peace,
jim
Gunga Djinn @ 107
.
Sorry, but nobody here knows what I have or haven’t done, what I have or haven’t said, what I have or haven’t sacrificed, and what I have or haven’t achieved with regards to ending the war in Iraq.
As such, NOBODY here is going to make me complicit to war crimes.
wangdangdoodle @ 119
Gunga Djinn@107 Meant to say, and good on ya. Peace Out!
Lisa – I’d note that not once did Maryam or anyone suggest harming you or yours. Maryam simply asks that we stop harming her people – and points out that as Americans, we are responsible.
Several have said “no, not me” or “you don’t know what I do” etc … no, we don’t. I confess that I am complicit – what percentage of each tax dollar my employer takes out each check buys the next bomb dropped on a neighborhood in Baghdad? For me, it is that simple – my taxes = my bullets and bombs.
And yes, I recognize and have written often that we are already in a dictatorship, that our “representatives” do not “represent” me or us. That does not remove or absolve my personal complicity as I live in comfort, safe here while Maryam gives all for the children of Iraq.
Most of us have Gooper family relations.
Why not reach out to one of them by the weekend and have the “rule of law vs loyalty to royalty” discussion?
There are people on the Right – maybe half – who will join us in standing for the rule of law as common ground.
TRex @ 17
sounds good to me.
will relieve the feeling in my stomach.
so i’ll be calling Senators
john cornyn and kay bailey hutchison.
i see your Ick and raise one Ick.
SnarKassandra @ 119
Hiya!
yellowdog jim @ 134
I think those two are ICK squared.
The price of our complacency, was to have our government hijacked, the price of our ignorance was the hate that was generated in our name. Now what is the price that will be paid by those have driven this country into century’s of mistrust and disrepute. And who will have the courage to make them pay that price?
Amy, one night, I would like to hear about your work as a civil rights lawyer. Are you east coast, west coast, or somewhere in the middle?
T- @ 57
And they have the DREs on their side.
Amy Robertson @ 85
The whole issue of who is to blame and not to blame in modern industrial-technical warfare is an ethical and moral conundrum that has yet to be solved. We brushed it under the rug at the end of WWII to deal with the resurgent threat of communism. But go to Japan or Germany today and you’ll find they remember very well and have largely accepted blame for all of their citizens for not standing up and ending the horrible regimes before they could do such atrocities. And that is fine on the national level and for personal closure.
But in practice it sucks. At nuremburg, one of the defense lawyers asked an american general what would have happened to an american soldier who refused to obey orders on moral grounds the way they were insisting German soldiers should have done. The american general admitted the american soldier would have been imprisoned at best and shot at worst. The defense lawyer then rested his case.
It’s a problem we’ve never solved, and now we are confronted with it again. And regardless of the iraqi doctor’s personal politics and unfortunate comments, it is a problem we are now, as a nation, going to have to come to terms with or lose much if not all of what we have gained in the last century.
Completely and utterly OT:
CNN has a poll up re: the debate.
Once you submit your answers, you can see a detailed breakdown of how other people have voted.
If you look at how the questions were originally asked, and how these two questions appear in the breakdown, it looks like CNN dropped the coding ball.
Question 3: Who had the best one-liner or comeback? (sorry, no screen cap)
Question 7: Who was the snappiest dresser?
Looks like they have things fixed now.
Siun @ 132
I agree. While not responsible to the extent that Bush and company are, we all share some degree of complicity for allowing this to continue. As they said during the civil rights movement, you are either part of the solution or you are part of the problem.
I do not know how to stop this blood bath. Nothing I have tried has worked. While most people in the US oppose the war, far too few are willing to do anything and our elected representatives seem too timid and intimidated to take action. I can only keep trying the same things over and over again and try to think of new things to do.
Siun @ 133
People have protested by not paying taxes in past wars only to receive a hefty fine and end up paying more towards the very thing they abhorred. The only way I know around it is what some people are doing, taking a vow to live very simply and not paying taxes because they refuse any income beyond the poverty level. It is a hard discipline. Americans are so addicted to indulging ourselves that most are not willing to give up even a simple indulgence.
Well my movie-therapy suggestion is Judgment at Nuremberg with spencer tracy.
I hadn’t seen it until this year and it’s amazing how relevant it is for us now.
I haven’t help bankroll Gitmo or Abu Ghraib. I haven’t helped sign any checks.
And like I said, NOBODY here is going to make me complicit to war crimes.
Nobody.
Fine, althespook. Tell yourself whatever magic words will allow you to sleep tonight with your head tucked firmly in the sand. Clearly, you are without guilt in this mess. I hope that notion keeps you warm tonight.
I’m outta here.
Those of us who live in this country have been protected from the rising anti-American sentiment that has been growing in the rest of the world. My daughter, who is currently living in New Zealand faces the prejudice on a daily basis. The minute she opens her mouth, they know where she is from, and a lot of people don’t care that she never supported this administration and hates what they have done. All they know is that she is an ugly American, and they treat her accordingly.
TRex @ 146
Are you leaving???????
Well I will leave you all now, I have been give the rare treat of a full stomach and a few beers. It would be disrespectful to neglect such gifts. Love and peace to you all. Remember “Rust never sleeps and neither does the movement towards peace”.
Yep, all that ugliness that we put out there is finally, finally seeping back into America.
It is a good thing. We are now beginning to see the consequences of our actions.
They are manifesting themselves in a population that is beginning to fray at the edges.
No one wants to see the monster in the mirror, but we can’t turn away now.
This is only the beginning.
-GSD
Night argos. Sleep the healing sleep.
TRex @ 147
Don’t go TRex. This is one of the most important discussions and something that makes each of us look into the depth of our heart. It is a hard subject.
those who mention the ‘good german’ are on point.
Many contemporary Germans, who weren’t even born during the 3rd Reich, are apologetic and sheepish and ashamed, and go all hushed when talking about “our history.”
that’s a sense of decency there sir.
of course we are all complicit, of course we are all stained.
worry less about your affronted sense of moral hygeine and more about how to stop further atrocities in our names.
for the audience here, how about swearing off support for a candidate like Clinton or Obama who says Iran is a serious threat and “all options are on the table?”
needless to say, another attack on a country that does not threaten the USA would be another terrible crime, and every senator voted in favor of it!!!
and then of course there is:
http://www.warresisters.org/
http://www.afsc.org/
I believe TRex was saying that he is on his way home from work. He usually leaves around this time every nite.
DrDick @ 67
Last November, I wrote here:
In the past, we needed to institute a draft to protect us from the Fascism of the Axis powers. Later, we imposed a draft in the vain belief that we needed it to protect us from the totalitarianism of Chinese Communism and Soviet world domination.
Now, as Charlie Rangel argues, we may need to institute a draft to protect us from American fascism. He’s got a point there.
However, after hearing Dr. Maryam say last night: “We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values, ” I now arrive at a different conclusion.
I now believe that we need a draft to keep the military from becoming fascistic.
althespook @ 140
I agree it’s not simple, but on the other hand, we make a distinction between “good Germans” who supported the regime or turned away (on the one hand) and those who worked against it or protected Jews and other victims (on the other). We are not supporting the regime or turning away.
[Suzanne @138 - We’re in Denver and handle anti-discrimination cases in public accommodations, housing, employment, etc.]
Thanks for a fascinating discussion.
G’night.
PS – Trying to quote part of #140 & got a lot of underlining. Sorry!
[Mod Note, it should be better now.]
sporkovat @ 154
Two terrific sites on the net. These organizations are in the trenches. In fact, they never left them.
I think the points Alfred raised are valid ones.
I also question this “do something or shut the fuck up” doctrine. The fact is that certain actions ARE useless. Such as calling repub congress-slime who are not going to listen. What the fuck is that all about…..do something, no matter how futile, just for the sake of being able to SAY you did something?
a common mistake – g’nite amy and thanks again for de-lurking tonight.
BigMitch @ 155
However, after hearing Dr. Maryam say last night: “We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values, ” I now arrive at a different conclusion.
I now believe that we need a draft to keep the military from becoming fascistic.
This is always the danger with a fully professional army (as opposed to one of short term conscripts).
We have been told before what war does and the carnage it creates. We forget too quickly. This is the last part of the War Prayer by Mark Twain: link
Speaking of atoning for sins.
Tony Blair is attempting to do just that. Doing what both the US and the UK could have done to turn around the situation in the Middle East without a single Goddamn bomb.
But can he be a fair negotiator?
But negotiating was so “Clintonian” and weak for the Bushists and Cheneyites.
-GSD
Night Amy. Keep up the good fight in Denver.
I’ve done the “write your congressperson” thing a few times and I’ll try it again. Also I plan to write another political song tomorrow (actually today) for whatever its worth. Interestingly (to me at least) I discovered my song “Scooter Justice” has mysteriously stopped functioning and was deleted from my list of tunes on Soundclick although the original page hasn’t been deleted. If I had my tinfoil hat on, I’d swear it was a conspiracy.
All:
We all did what we felt was right in Vietnam (those of us who are old enough). Some of us were terribly misguided and regret it to this day. But make no mistake about it. This is an elected government, and our failure to work hard enough to elect a government that would stop this madness means we all have an unpleasent red stain on our hands. Could we personally do anything about it, no. Are we all to blame for it. Yes.
I agree with a poster above. If Sheehan runs against Pelosi, although I am no longer a Californian, I will contribute to Sheehan’s campaign. Nothing talks in Washington except money. And right now, we have the best Congress that money can buy. The shamea of it.
TRex, you sum up what I’ve been experiencing after reading what Dr. Maryam had to say, and reading all those questions and comments. I’m already angry, and ashamed, as many of us have been for years now, and no there is no atoning for what we have allowed to happen: her comments and answers make it amply clear. It was the wrong evening, this evening, to come home from work and see “Telefund” on the caller ID. The DNCC wants more money, and I’m gettting more cynical. Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains or slavery? Because that is what we are accepting, and purchasing seems to be just about all that we are really capable of. How are we going to dare take responsibility, and truly own our actions, for what we have, and continue, to let happen?
Suzanne @ 160
Sporkovat @154 suggests two very effective organizations who never left the trenches. Sometimes we do more through them than our congresspeople. They lobby congress.
OK. I did what I said I would do. Here is my first post about ending the occupation.
Jim Preston @ 128
Right on, Jim! Thanks for doing what you’re doing and may many more of us follow in your footsteps.
Sorry, but for those with their feelings hurt by Maryam’s comments…get over yourselves, jeezus!
It does make one defensive and hurt…I understand that. But can you understand how different her world is from your’s, and how that might influence her behaviour?
She is one person, and doesn’t speak for an entire country. I’ve seen many writings of great peace advocates in Iraq who won’t call you names, so maybe you should seek out those people to learn about Iraq today. Try to learn from her comments and set your fragile egos aside for a few moments.
If you choose to remain “hurt” by some words, then what? Are you going to dismiss her comments and feelings about the disaster in Iraq because she was mean and impolite? Please…
I have been writing to my reps for five years that their actions/inactions make me morally complicit in this atrocity. We have marched, called, devoted vast portions of our days to becoming informed. We give money to candidates to try to change things, to relief efforts. We have endured the ostracism of families who refuse to see and we have nightmares about the horrors inflicted and about the futures of our own children. We should have this conversation. We should take more action, but please let’s not fight or finger point. It saps the energy we need to create change.
Allthespook – Since I do not hang out in the same threads as you, I have no idea what you did or did not do in the past and I said nothing about “resenting” whatever that was. Your assumption that I knew and resented it perhaps more than you meant to say about your own feelings about your prior occupation.
And your insistence that Maryam may or may not have at one time been a Baathist in order to pursue her life career of healing children from the results of the radiation we dropped on her country strikes me as ridiculous.
Maryam is not supporting some “sunni baathist” takeover of Iraq – I have no idea where you came up with this fantasy. Please look again at Du’s comments on her background and at her own words of disdain for the american obsession with sunni v shia. This “sectarian divide” is a fabrication imposed on the Iraqi people by the invaders as one part of the strategy to conquer Iraq. Every Iraqi source I know supports that. It is however a favorite line of the NYT and WaPo and all the folks who search for ever new excuses to stay in Iraq.
You are so concerned that Maryam was “rude” … I am concerned that we are slaughtering children, women and men throughout Iraq tonight, right this minute. Maryam is asking us to look – with clear eyes – at what we are doing. This apparently makes you immensely uncomfortable – it is not easy for any here – but your response is to attempt to discredit her and I find that shameful.
May I may a suggestion?
When TRex returns, let’s have him find this thread filled with statements of what each one of us is going to do.
I will be calling Rep. Eschoo tomorrow, along with Sens. Boxer and Feinstein. I will be talking with my family and friends about the need for them to also call their reps and sens. Time to move this discussion forward from a discussion to a movement. A movement forward. We can not change the past but we can change the future.
SnarKassandra @ 149
I’m with you Cassie, please don’t. I’m sort of afraid here.
SnarKassandra @ 136
good one!
texas’ senators = square
i can remember when “Smilin’ Ralph” Yarborough was our senator.
Suzanne @ 170
Heard Anna on the radio last week and she is definitely on our side. Have known her for many years and she is a true progressive.
Suzanne @ 172
Gesundheit!
OK Suzanne.
I will call the congress tomorrow. And I will improve my blog post with the other sites that people reccommend.
EvilDrPuma @ 16
Invincible ignorance?
(Hey Kassasandra!)
What have I done?
I made a movie:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZlxBTVxINM
I called my Congresswoman today to ask her to co-sponsor HR333.
I wish that had worked.
I donated $100 today to a Democratic candidate for president who promises to end the war.
wangdangdoodle @ 125
hm.
i remember the rain. (it rains every day, damn al gore!)
but i don’t remember where i went.
oh well, i am home anyway, however i got here.
you?
SnarKassandra @ 176
excellent, cassie.
RagingGurrl @ 179
Your movie is blocked for teen accounts.
althespook @ 54
Thank you Amy and Al. I, too was frustrated that she seemed to want only to flog us Evil Americans. Not to have a dialogue of any kind. Why someone would assume that someone like Siun, whom she obviously doesn’t hate, and actually respects, spends his online time with a bunch of murdering racist Americans was a bit baffling. As were the knee-jerk admonitions to “don’t be defensive” “your pov isn’t relevant here.”
Anyway, I’m going to sign off. I’ve said all I have to say, and said it better, in EPU land in the original thread, which was called “Focus Groups, Anyone?” IIRC. I’m sorry, but once through this emotional wringer in 48 hours is enough for now.
OK, 2 more cents-worth. I agree that I as an American have blood on my hands. I do NOT accept that I am automatically every bit as guilty as those who have used their wealth and power to prosecute this war. Or as those in elected office who have put their political survival above listening to and serving average American People like me and supported it (or failed to stop it by choosing not to act). There IS a difference in degree here. Dr. Maryam is not in a position to take that in. Understandable. But I really hope that in dealing with one another, here in this community, we can continue to “be excellent to each other.” To give each other the benefit of the doubt and support each other’s efforts to end this Occupation. I honestly believe that can be done without denying any of the horror and suffering the USA has perpretrated in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And, please, don’t make this about proving Dr Maryam or anyone else wrong. It’s really a waste of time and energy, not least because she and her nephew have obviously already made up their minds. Frustrated as we all are, and as raw as we all are emotionally, I don’t believe it’s productive to be attacking anyone else for sitting on their a** or sitting in judgement over whether a fellow Firepup’s efforts are “enough”. IOW, please be careful how you deal with your own guilt, anguish and frustration over the whole horrible mess in Iraq. Be very careful that it doesn’t come out as ugliness toward other Pups.
Thank you, and goodnight.
Diva
Well, Aunt Betsy is having a holiday that has fasting and stuff. And she doesn’t feel good. So she asked me to get a snack.
Here is a snack that will attract young people to Firedoglake.
SnarKassandra @ 147
no he’s either logging off or going home from work. he’s pissed at me because I won’t accept his viewpoint and insist an alternate viewpoint is also valid. He’ll get over it. TRex is too fine a person to let little stuff like this get to him for long.
Marretta @ 147
That’s a shame, Marretta.
I am an American living overseas and people are very nice to me.
However, your daughter’s experience reflects very poorly on new Zealanders. It is incredibly bigoted of them to be mean to her because of the country she is from.
Who would you all be rude to because you disagreed with the politics of their country? Someone from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, perhaps? A North Korean?
I’ll bet nobody. Further, I’ll bet nobody on this site would be rude to someone because of the country they came from. It shouldn’t be acceptable from people from other countries, either.
As for Maryam, her story is sad, but she is still one person. If there were an Iraqi blog, and you all had to select one person to represent the entire American view on Iraq and the Iraq war, who would you choose to do that? It couldn’t be done.
Funnydiva2002 @ 183
Well said.
althespook @ 61
Cassie:
And I agree. It is important, it is getting better, and I suspect you’ve got a lot of FDL readers too. The kids at your school are just that. Kids. You might be 15, but you’re not a kid. Very few people your age make an impression on the so-called adult world. You have. Keep it up, Snarkcassandra. Those of us who went before (like way before) are pulling for you, maybe because when you’re running a huge successful blog, or editing a newspaper, we want to be able to say “we knew her when.”
I extend this to the whole crew at Youthinkleft too. You are all, whether you know it or not, fighting for this country in a way that our elected representitives seem to have forgotten how to do.
Christy and Jane and all the other folks are leading the way, but they will get old and tired, and there you stand in the background. Just keep it up. No matter how depressing it gets.
SnarKassandra @ 183
thanks cassie – was feeling kinda parched.
Night Diva. Good comment and I agree completely.
All Afghanis and Saudis have the blood of 911 on their hands. I will hate them, teach my children to hate them, teach all future generations to hate them, … maybe I should focus on those EvilDoers that actually did it? Even encourage those Afghanis and Saudis who thought their deeds horrific to help stop them and prevent it from happening again. Nah, feels to good to lash out at all even though it increases support for the EvilDoers.
For those who question Maryam’s motives, or who can’t or won’t attempt to empathize with anger such as hers, I would ask this:
Have you ever held a dying child in your arms? Let’s say, any dying child, not necessarily one who’s been grievously injured during a war, since we’ve been pretty fortunate not to have been occupied by a bomb-launching enemy over here in the States.
Or, have you ever tried to comfort a child who’s lost his parents, his baby sister, and his right arm? How about a child blinded in a fire or explosion?
Because this is what Maryam does every day. This is what Maraym has been doing.
I am a mother of three beautiful sons. I look at all children everywhere with the same awe and wonder; I cannot fathom the despair, the anger, and the pain she must feel after witnessing one such tragedy; after trying to care for just one child wounded in this horrific, immoral, illegal war; after looking into just one little pair of eyes searching for a mother who will never appear. It defies my imagination to even try.
Yet this is what Maryam does–for how many wounded, for how many orphaned?–because she must.
Her anger must become our anger. Real anger, I mean. Not the make-nice, politics-as-usual tv anger our elected officials effect when it behooves them to have a sound bite published. Real, action-fueling anger.
SnarKassandra @ 182
Yes, the images are of the Iraq War’s destruction and the death of Iraqi children, juxtaposed with two American evangelists preaching about their support of the war and their stance against abortion – it’s called “Right to Life”
thanks for the props, Quakergirl.
don’t let the daytime regulars see you talking to me, though, I am supposed to be just sporking in the empty wind.
a proud tradition of pacifism and civil disobedience, the Quakers.
always been there, always will. reminds me of the great MLK quote:
GSD @ 75
In today’s episode of the Wingnut Players revival of Blazing Saddles, Kristol pleads, “Not in the face! Not in the face!”
To which Ahn-drew replies,
“Piss on yew — ah’m werkin’ fer Mel Brooks.”
althespook @ 185
Well, no snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible. But they all fall down the mountain and crush anything in their path.
Perhaps you’ll get over it. You might surprise yourself.
Good night.
The urge for some to be shitty to Americans because of Iraq and all is the same pathetic urge as some Americans have to be shitty to Muslims or Arabs because of 9/11.
-GSD
RagingGurrl @ 193
Well cool about the phone call and the $100 then.
Good night y’all.
SnarKassandra @ 168
***
Excellent, Cassie! One small typo…under how-to-help, Point #1, should the terms “war” and “occupation” be in reverse order?
Night Cassie. Keep up the good work. You are making a difference.
Last night I mentioned – and will mention again – that one way to act is to support the Red Crescent which is the only organization still helping people throughout Iraq (even after numerous RC workers have been killed)
To reach the Red Crescent, click here and select “Iraq Humanitarian Response” to direct your contribution.
And since one person seemed to think Maryam was somehow pitching for money, I will note that I have asked people to donate to the Red Crescent for a long time – and that Maryam had no idea I would do so during her visit nor asked me to in any way. I just feel that it is the most direct way I can get essential supplies to those who need them most – and through an organization that is independent.
g’nite cassie (and other pups i missed)
CD @ 199
Oops. Thanks.
My 11 year old daughter has a shirt that reads “Not My President” with an image of Fuckface himself on it. After reading this she has decided she has to wear it everyday rather than a couple times a week.
Like the others who have posted before us, we too are ashamed more now than ever.
Also,my boyfriend read somewhere that Bush was trying to pass a bill that it would be against the law to protest the war. Anyone have info. on that? (sorry new to the blog)
Cheers!
RagingGurrl @ 179
Whoa. The dude with the hat….freaky!
Powerful video.
Sporko,
MLK……Amen.
-GSD
welcome, new to the blog karla. i think he may be talking about a wapoo piece that came out friday. let me find the link.
“Yes, if we are walking this planet at this moment in time, we are no less responsible for the continued war in Iraq than this administration and congress.”
Absolute hooey.
By your measure everyone alive today is responsible for the war. Those people who protest, write,call, march, plead, write editorials informing others, who tried to stop the war before it started, and are still trying: not responsible.
Easy to understand Maryam’s anger. But impossible to agree that my Mennonite neighbors, pacifists all and workers for peace in many ways, are at all complicit.
Seems to me the broad brush of “we’re all responsible” ends in “(So your responsibility is greater than mine.)”
As mentioned above, you can’t possibly know what work for peace any of the rest of us have done (or not done) and so you have no place to judge from.
Maryam’s anger toward individuals she has no knowledge of is also understandable but misplaced. Her losses are grevious, and her emotions strong and raw–but her depth of feeling does not cancel out the fact that not all in the US are culpable for what happened to her, any more than the depth of feeling in the US after the 9/11 attacks would have given us carte blanche to attack all Muslims for something precipitated and worked out by a few.
Vengeance is not the same thing as justice.
litbrit @ 191
Worth repeating…
karla, this link what you are looking for? in addition to the expanded priv re the usa’s, there is also mention of his expanded powers to seize assets of dissenters, etc.
Siun @ 170
I’m afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Which is fine and that’s the end of it for me. The other lakers who may have been offended by her remarks (like Amy) now have a different point of view to help them get to the meat of her remarks, which is worth understanding.
As to me personally, I have no qualms about my service to our Constitution. The fact that there was never a full scale nuclear launch by either side during the First Cold War is undoubtedly due in part to work that I and many others did. Every night you can go to sleep in your comfy bed along with all the rest of us is a direct result of that success.
TeddySanFran @ 41
As would I. I am so tired of hearing about her getting arrested for trying to do the RIGHT THING!!
If ever I had a hero, she’s it!
What can we do, you ask.
Remember what the American colonists did a few hundred years ago when they invented Democracy and started a thing called The Revolution?
Remember the British Socialist in SiCKO saying that in the United States the people are afraid of the government, while in France, the government is afraid of the people – because whenever their rights are compromised, they march in the streets.
Remember the words of Howard Zinn – No leader ever changed anything; it was the people who went out into the streets that changed things.
What was it they all did?
PROTEST
In the streets, in the buildings, in the condescending faces of their families, friends, neighbors and co-workers.
Not in their armchairs, eating chocolate and saying “zed”.
Suzanne @ 209
YES! THANKS SO MUCH! My boyfriend (Duo) also mentioned that he read somewhere that people can lose their property, etc. Again thanks so much for getting this article to me!
Karla – welcome to Firedoglake. Its great to have you join us!
I think the law you mention is the recent Executive Order signed by Bush last week that gives him the power to seize all belongings of anyone who is seen as hurting our efforts in Iraq. Ian Welsh at the Agonist had a very good post on it here on Saturday (his work is always worth a read!) The Assault on Due Process
Siun @ 213
I was actually trying to do a search for it on here and couldn’t find it. Thanks!!
It is unbelievable to me what this country is becoming. I am ill at the thought of what is facing our kids.
How dare anyone try to bully us!
litbrit @ 191
DING!
thanks, siun… i realized after i gave the link that i had given the wrong one… yours is much better.
LitBrit … what a great comment. The connection made when we look at our dealy loved children and understand that they are the same children dying in Iraq is very good fuel for good action.
As long as there is a standing army. As long as the military industrial complex is maintained, there will always be a war. Too many resources, and too much money is poured into the military to avoid using it. It is a business, and if the United States continues to maintain a large standing army, unlike the times before WWII, Administrations, both Democratic and Republican, will wage war.
If anything, this war has proven that the presumption that the US needs such a substantial army is dangerous, irrational and misleading. We have the most powerful army in the history of mankind, and we have lost three wars in less than 50 years. Yes, we have had some “successes”, but those successes could have been as easily achieved with a substantially smaller standing army. Especially for the Air Force, Navy battleships and our nuclear armament.
I understand we are THE global superpower, and so it is assumed that we must maintain a large standing army to “keep the peace” throughout the world. Bullshit. Iraq I (sad, but an apt title) proved that air assualts and limited ground forces can win the day. Kosovo the same thing. I say propose an amendment, an amendment that severely limits the number of troops the armed forces can employ at any given time, and if future Presidents determine that more troops are needed, Congress would provide the funding, and then the President, the Executive Branch, in executing the war, would have TO INSTITUTE THE DRAFT to garner enough forces for a war. I think that is a nice little check on the over-reaching capabilities of the Executive Branch, no matter what party is in the WH. That will take the talons out of the hawks a bit.
It’s just a thought…..
Karla @ 210
She is a hero and I support her efforts. Two of my kids spent more than a week at Camp Casey. But we need to be somewhat realistic here. Cindy does not lives in Nancy’s district. She would not win if she ran but would probably devide the vote which could be dangerous. Would you like to throw out our first female Speaker? Would you like to get rid of all those years of experience for someone who has never run for anything and is a one issue candidate? As much as I respect Cindy, I say No.
Hey Suzanne! I’m just a rabid Ian fan! LOL!
I wonder if TRex stopped at the piggly wiggly on his way home tonight. it is monday…
GSD – if you’re still up … not sure if you saw this on Blair’s new job: Fisk on Blair
MayBee @ 186
I lived out of a suitcase traveling the world in 2002-2003 for a job. When the contract started, there was much sympathy for an American still from 9/11. Less than two years later, I literally was saying I was Canadian if asked where I was from. It was that scary sometimes. There was a palpable change in attitude that started with the Iraq invasion.
Be happy you’re in a safe place.
GSD @ 196
This was in response to the post about a someones daughter getting flack in Denmark.
-GSD
A window into the Iraq mayhem courtesy of McClatchey.
althespook @ 68
This sounds suspiciously like the same tortured logic used by Bill O’Reilly to justify why it was OK to carpet bomb Afghanistan. In his words, the civilians there “allowed” the Taliban and therefore al-Qaeda to be in power and use their country as a training ground and launching pad for global terrorism. They were for all practical purposes aiding and abetting global terrorism by their inaction and refusal to stand up to the oppression they were under. Therefore, their deaths, while unfortunate, were not especially tragic.
Was he right too? Do we really want to go down the path of assigning collective guilt and culpability? That’s too much of a rightwinger thing to do, if you ask me. It also reflects a sometimes stupid American thought to have, which is that *we can do anything*, including ending a war just as easily as those who started it, just as long as we set our minds to it. Empowering, yes, but it in the form used here it can also be ridiculously self-destructive. “The war isn’t over yet? Well, then blood is on YOUR hands.” How does that kind of raw emotion solve anything?
Don’t get me wrong – I don’t begrudge anyone their anger for what has happened in Iraq. It is utterly sickening and frightful beyond contemplation. But to casually cast blame to anyone, including oneself, on par with those who directly prosecuted this war crime accomplishes nothing, and only serves the ends of the most extreme, paranoid, and unforgiving people in this world, of any ideology or tribe.
PROTEST
“Now you can’t hear me, your ears are truly sealed.”
A sad state of affairs, and it seems to prevail here tonight, which is still more sad.
I was deeply disturbed by all that Maryam said last night, and I don’t question her motives, justification, or anything. Kind of like with Cindy Sheehan……when another person has endured the worst horror I can imagine, I don’t feel I have any right to judge them.
But I cannot accept knee jerk reactions, of any kind, to anything, and that is what I keep seeing here this evening.
newspaperbrat
I was stunned by Maryam’s comments last night. Every time I tried to type a response, I erased it and began again, my efforts seemed so inadequate. I felt there was nothing I could say, but I wrote anyway, we all did, mostly for ourselves.
She wants Americans out of Iraq, she does not want our apology, our sympathy, or our money. Nothing comes before our exit from Iraq.
I would feel the same if someone invaded our country.
oddmommy @ 227
I hope that you didn’t think that I was judging Cindy. I was speaking purely politically.
Siun @ 222
That was a serious smackdown of Blair, I had to agree with many of Fisk’s points!!!
bonkers @ 225
I’ve been to a few unsafe places. But I would never pretend I’m not American. I figure the only way for people to see their notions about Americans are wrong is for them to meet Americans that don’t meet their misconceptions.
cynic @ 225
The main difference between Iraq and Viet Nam is that there was a draft. It is political suicide to institute a draft and fail. But because the draft was avoided, the Administration looks upon our soldiers as paid employees of BushCo. They are expandable in his eyes, and the Neo-con eyes. That is why it is business as usual right now. According to the neo-cons, the soldiers are doing what they are getting paid to do. And that is fundamentally wrong.
Siun @ 224
Shorter Fisk: Blair, you’re a heckuva a Brownie.
-GSD
Get Tough @ 218
It’s like a pocket-knife. Someone gave me one once, and I was amazed at what a useful thing it was. I was always finding something to do with it. Then, (after 9-11) I wasn’t allowed to carry it into Court where I worked. So I stopped carrying it. And I haven’t missed it since.
Get Tough continues:
It’s just a thought…..
See my comment #155
Well, I think I am going to try to get some sleep. Interesting discussion this evening. Take care of each other and remember that this is not about assigning blame and guilt (plenty to go around), but about renewing our dedication and efforts to end the horror. Nothing we can do will ever make it up to Dr. Maryam and she will never forgive us. Her remarks were not always “fair”, but they were honest and true (for her and other Iraqis). What we do is not for her forgiveness, but to maintain our own honor, morality, and self respect.
Good evening dear friends. How’s the lake tonight?
Here’s my .02, just so everyone can get snarked at me.
I agree with Al. Yes, we all know that war is bad. It hurts people, tears up lives forever in ways that most (possibly almost all) of us can’t imagine. I’m not going to rip my shirt and beat my chest about it, sorry. I’ve got plenty of things to feel guilt about on my own, not going to add the classic Democrat “Americans are just awful” rhetoric to my speech or go off shrilly forcing my congresscritter to stop paying any attention to my emails…I’m not sure he actually does anyway. The things I’m currently doing as my citizen’s part to stop this particular insanity are things I’ve been doing anyway….regular contact with Skelton, McCaskill and Bond, working for my choice of ‘08 candidates, and actively pursuing using less gasoline. I’ve cut back by 33% since I started three years ago.
I am not going to do anything I would get arrested for….sorry, I have a family that depends on me personally, and that does trump my duty to humanity at large, at least to that extent. And I’m not going to go off into a spell of self-hate because my tax dollars support this travesty. They also support what help I get from WIC, and some other programs that help my family.
Al makes some very good points about the things we don’t know. Y’all can vow to do things to help, of course, but the biggest things you can do, you’re already doing. Regime change in America is a big, big start, and you’re working toward it.
MayBee @ 233
Agreed. However, not sure what you’re doing and where, but there were times and places where I might’ve gotten my arse kicked, or worse. I’ve always had a dream of moving to Canada anyway, so it actually felt good to say I was Canuck. Happy trails…
Nite, DD!!!
Twain @ 228
no, that was not directed at you at all. In fact, your approach is exactly what we need……reasoned discussion, rather than sheep-like adherence.
DrDick @ 238
It is unreasonable to assume that in a country as culturally rich and diverse as Iraq that there is unanimity of opinion. I heard Dr. Maryam, and it was a hell of an eye-opener. But I wonder to what extent she speaks for most Iraqis and what are some other opinions.
TexB @ 237
Rather feisty tonite, Ma’am!!!
TexB @ 238
Edgy. Lots of raw nerves on display. A good night to tread lightly.
i have been all about dealing with my rage-issues these last 12 years ( we had shrub for governor for 6 years ) and
keeping myself operational/rational/functional
enough to care for my family well.
and then enough more that i can engage this political miasma that tries to drain my neurotransmitters until i can’t move, like.
then i do all i can.
but i must modulate how much i engage Maryam’s rage, because it is so toxic that i easily collapse into depression, where i cease to be help to anyone.
still i will do what i can to help her and her people.
it is not that i need like an excuse, but if people get all mad at me i am not as productive.
less productive.
counter productive.
so, i chill.
everybody drive carefully.
BigMitch @ 155
However, after hearing Dr. Maryam say last night: “We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values, ” I now arrive at a different conclusion.
I now believe that we need a draft to keep the military from becoming fascistic.
Great point, Mitch. Nice little corollary to what I am fuming about. The draft ups the stakes for any political party in power because you are putting little Jimmy down the street on the front lines, not little Jimmy, the career soldier who has been stationed overseas for the last five years, pulling down a salary and benefits, albeit, of course, inadequate for what they do for a living.
WWII and Korea have almost an idylic sense to them because politicians, athletes, Elvis for cryin’ out loud, were drafted and served. It places the war at everyone’s doorsteps. As such, if the cause is trully worthy, and our best our needed to defend our great country, then the draft would be have to be instituted. We can police the world with air strikes, battleships and special forces.
burnspbesq @ 246
Tread lightly around me too. My body’s not having the best of all nights.
lisa @ 109
Thank you, Lisa. And I don’t believe for a second that you’re saying that you don’t care about what’s happened in Iraq or aren’t angry about it or feel no responsibility or need to take action. I assume you’re like me: heartbroken over the suffering, furious about being ignored by my elected representatives, and struggling with how to translate that into some sort of action. So, like you, I don’t see a reason to sit silently while Dr Maryam or anyone else here at FDL sits in judgement of me for “sitting on (my) ass” or not doing enough.
And for the record, Siun, I am NOT trying to give myself or anyone else a reason to not hear what Dr Maryam had to say. I believe I demonstrated that in the original thread. I don’t believe that was althespook’s intent, either. In fact, he said so. I keep responding as I do because I believe that my point of view, and Amy’s and Al’s are all valid, and that YOU are are doing exactly what you accused al of in your comment @ #84.
IOW, please stop equating discussion, or disagreement with you or Dr Maryam, as somehow denying either the truth of what she says or my/my country’s responsibility for her suffering.
I’ll say it again. Every time someone here attacks someone else with “get off your ass” or “you’re not taking responsibility” or whatever, I see a huge High Horse and it gets my back up. Be very careful and clear when you post that you include yourself in any flagellation or judgement you’re dishing out, especially if you know or suspect that your own feelings are running high. We’re all Firepups here, not enemies. It behooves us all to be very aware of the kind of defensiveness that says “well, if you disagree with me, you have your head in the sand, so there nyah.” It’s not constructive.
Shorter me: Judge Not that YOU may not be judged.
This time for real.
Oh, and welcome, Amy, hope you’ll stick around.
*poof*
Diva
Perhaps some are missing the point? I’m not defending Maryam’s remarks and opinions. Her hatred is misplaced, and misplaced hatred often leads to more violence. And the cycle repeats.
But I can understand why she has those feelings, and hearing her words, I can get doubly motivated to stop this insanity that is happening in my name as an American, and with my tax dollars.
We need to take her anger and turn it into postive change. That is the point. Is there something wrong with that?
trex and maryam…
I marched in early 2003 to protest the inevitable invasion…
I read and read and read about what the US has done to Iraq… destroying their infrastructure so American companies could rebuild, destroying their military to inadvertently create the insurgencey (all chronicled in “Baghdad Year Zero” by Naomi Klein in a great Harper’s article in 2003)…
I sent out e-mail alerts and protests to the media as the massacre in Fallujah was happening.
I cried last fall,without being able to stop, at the atrocities America was inflicting, and had inflicted for years, on an innocent country… with no provocation. Wondering where was the mass protest in America.
I marched in DC in January 2007 with United for Peace and Justice (one person out of approx 800,000, which the media reported as “10s of thousands”)… I carried a sign that read “660,000 Iraqis killed”… one of only a handfull I saw that addressed Iraqi deaths.
I helped to coordinate people from NM going to the march.
I cried this spring without being able to stop at the atrocities America was inflicting on an innocent country… with no provocation.
I’ve called Domenici (a Repub who finally has seen the light, yet is not calling for US withdrawal) and Bingaman (a Dem who doesn’t think withdrawal is the “right” thing to do).
I’ve sent e-mails to all of my friends asking for action on their part, inspiring call as well to the congress and Senate.
I told a friend of mine today… I don’t know what else I can do…. honestly, it doesn’t seem as if anyone can have an impact when the President is out of control and does not answer to any person or Congressional group within the United States.
I’ve been in quite a depression the past few months at the seeming hopelessness of it all… granted, less that 1% of what the poor people in Iraq have suffered as their country has been destroyed by the US dictator…
Please tell me what else I can do to end this nightmare and I’ll do it.
I speak to the older men here (and hope that the younger women and men will listen). Have you ever been shelled? I was. It wasn’t so bad at the time, we were all drunk. It was like the fourth of July, until the people next to me started to fly apart (and we didn’t even take any direct hits). Yes, this was long ago and far away, but imagine your feelings if your loved ones were subjected to this, your house destroyed, and your world shattered. To this day, I can’t sit still at a fourth of July firworks display. I think that’s all Dr. Maryam was trying to say. And she’s right. Our taxes paid for it. Our Congress failed to stop it. And now, even if we are successful in stopping them, the damage is done. With that I’m going to go get a good strong whisky and go to bed, thankful that I don’t have to fall asleep listening to the sounds of people screaming in pain.
TexB @ 239
Pull Up A Chair, it ain’t.
wangdangdoodle @ 254
ditto
Shadowstalker @ 240
And although it may not seem believable tonight, my concerns about Dr. Maryam were much worse earlier today. Fortunately DubhalTach has allayed those fears, but for a while I was actually concerned for the survival and safety of jane and her blog. My comments tonight were intended not to diminish the horrors Dr. Maryam has shown us, but instead to help some lakers who were offended by her confrontational dialog to appreciate why she might even now not be willing to accept the good graces of the american people, WITHOUT questioning her genuine agony over the atrocities she must deal with every day.
To put it more simply, if the republicans suddenly threw all registered democrats into concentration camps and started torturing them to death, would we expect Cindy Sheehan to accept the good intentions and speak kindly to some nice republicans who felt the whole thing was wrong and were really working hard to stop it and came to see her IN THE CAMP? I don’t think so. That was the point I was trying to make about Dr. Maryam.
Late Late Nite is upstairs
bonkers @ 251
Huh.
Why is her anger misplaced?
America killed 500K Iraqi children in sancations under your beloved last Democratic President Bill Clinton.
Then Bush invaded and killed even more.
Then Americans elected him in 2004, when it was known that he was torturing and killing. Americans endorsed what he had done in 2004. That election was a referendum on Iraq.
If you had done this to my country I would be enraged.
Heck, there are days when I’m enraged anyway and I throttle it down to an acceptable level.
You want to scream at America’s
Can’t you see!
Can’t you see!
I consider my anger appropriate and I don’t have 1 millionth the reason to be angry she does.
Now – most people here are good people. Most people here opposed the war. Unlike Maryam, because it isn’t my people who have died, I can see that. All Americans aren’t bad. Many, many, are good (and many more don’t bother to vote, and I consider them complicit with Bush, frankly.)
But…. still, it’s a democracy. It’s a Republic – and every part of it failed. Congress failed. The courts failed. The press failed. Elections failed.
It all… failed.
At what point, even if you oppose what your country does, do you become complicit?
Who was it who when asked why he was in jail during the Mexican/American war, said “why aren’t you in here too?”
Can’t remember, but…
I think those are the only people Maryam might be willing to forgive.
wangdangdoodle @ 254
Pull out my hair.
althespook @ 140
Friend of mine was a child soldier in Germany. Maybe I’ll write about that one day. He left Germany because he couldn’t stand how people after the war pretended they hadn’t known how bad it was.
Nathanael Nerode @ 45
I only skimmed a dozen or so of her comments last nite, because there’s only so much of that that needs to be read to get the picture.
Two things come to mind:
1) In any of my conversations about this insane occupation, someone will mention 3000-plus dead soldiers. I will nod, and add the bit about an extremely high, but unknown number of dead Iraqis. In very few instances do I get the response I want to see, which is recognition. Usually I get the look of… “What’s your point”? Sad.
2) In skimming through the comments, I didn’t see any of the usual wingnut BS talking points. I’m not asking why, it’s just a comment. It’s obvious why not. What can they say, “Why do you hate America”?
As I said to someone a few weeks back, “If we were occupied by a foreign army, wouldn’t YOU be an insurgent?”
That’s stops ‘em cold, at least for a moment.
Ian Welsh @ 258
So what is Maryam going to do with her anger? Does she teach children to hate America? Her younger relative said he was going to instill hatred for America in his children and grandchildren.
Where does this get anyone?!?
An eye for and eye leaves us all blind. There are many Iraqis with similar stories who advocate forgiveness and understanding towards Americans, since their leaders have committed atrocities as well. There are families of murder victims that forgive and develop friendships with the killer of their loved ones.
This is why I say her anger is misplaced. Don’t get me wrong, I’m very glad she was here and found it lame that people were trying lecture her on etiquette, I was just trying to make the point that I hope people like her can somehow find a way to process those feelings differently, otherwise the cycle will contine for generations.
History has shown that pursuing peace and non-violence is always the answer. Always.
bonkers @ 263
I wouldn’t say her anger is misplaced, however.
Perhaps “unwise” or “unproductive”.
But I suspect if I were her I would be angry, and I would hate.
Dali Lama on a monk held by the Chinese and tortured whose practice he hadn’t thought much of, “I thought much better of him when he said “it was very hard not to hate them.”"
But few of us are able to let go like that.
And I’m not a pacifist, alas, though I respect those who are.
TRex @ 118
Yes, it would be much better to be in jail as a tax protester. You wouldn’t be able to vote or protest or contribute to candidates who might do something, but at least you wouldn’t be complicit.
wangdangdoodle @ 119
This thread is nothing but sniping. I don’t respond to trolls who declare that I must not be “doing things” because I’m here, and much as I respect TRex, I’m not going to respond to it from him either.
I’m quite willing to discuss what I did to try to prevent this war, and what I’m doing to trying to end it, and what good ideas other people have that I might be able to adopt. But I’m not going to do it under a post that accuses me of just being here to assuage my guilt and comments that demand that I must declare what I’m doing to stop it in order to atone for my guilt.
Good night.
Ian Welsh @ 265
Yes, unproductive might be a better word….or counterproductive…
Absolutely I’d hate as well if in her shoes, and most people would. Might even get violent if provoked enough.
Not sure it’s about being a pacifist though. If some country tries to invade America (sadly, Maryam knows what that’s like), I want to have the most badass military in the world. If someone tries to mess with one of my children, I’ll defend to the death.
However, it’s about pursuing peace first and foremost. I remember a 60 Minutes report about some New York City firefighters going to Afghanistan to assist in earthquake relief. They were 9/11 survivors and went to areas previously very hostile to Americans. By the time they left, they said they felt like brothers and sisters. That’s what it’s all about.
Terrorism: Kill it with Kindness
It easy for us to sit here and say this, whereas for Maryam it’s a lot to ask, but that’s doesn’t mean it’s not true. I hope she can come to this place over time, and I hope people here that couldn’t “handle the truth” and then dismiss Maryam’s incredibly important views, can as well.
a clue on a plate for redshift and others:
from http://www.nwtrcc.org/practical3.html
oddmommy @ 158
I think some of these repub congress slime need to hear some shit every day about this FUBAR of a war they continue to back. They need to hear about the horrific consequences of their actions. They need to be reminded every single day about what they need to do to put things right. Otherwise they will continue to think they are right about all this when they are clearly not.
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.” –Margaret Mead
Yeah,I could call my senators and have them hang up on me again,or deal with the snotty little College Republican working in my rep’s office for the summer so I can be hung up on some more. It’s not the first time.
So fucking what? The people with the power to stop this will not,I heard excuses and plans last night from some of them on CNN but nothing else. Obviously they have a vested interest in keeping this going,or it never would have gone on in the first place.
Protesting? Why? So it can be ignored again? So the full force of the law can be brought down on unarmed citzens?(ever notice how riot police armed to the teeth show up at peace marches? Why is that? When have anti-war protestors ever,ever shot at police?)And as much as I’d love to fall for the idea that protesting ended the Vietnam War,it did not. It was the escalation by the Vietnamese that drove home the point that our presence there was making things worse. Sound familiar at all? Wouldn’t you fight if we were invaded? Even if it meant the invaders labelled you a terrorist or an insurgent?
I tried 4 yrs ago to get people to look at depleted uranium(depleted my ass)and what it does to children,to people,to life itself. I was the over-reactive asshole for doing so.
TRex is right about us sitting here,arrogantly thinking our blogging is doing a thing,it’s not,and it won’t.
I don’t care if this makes me unpopular,like I’m the belle of the fucking ball anyway here in EPU land,ha.
Amy Robertson @ 33
It served to make people ask questions. Like “why would she say that?” Not a rhetorical question at all.
This war has killed an estimated half-million civilians in four years (probably more, but that’s the hardest figure to refute).
The dozen-odd years of UN sanctions killed about a half-million Iraki children, due to malnutrition and lack of medical supplies (sanctions tend to kill children first). This was on Bill and Al’s watch. It was driven by them, and supported by them. Changes to the program which would’ve kept its strategic value and increased its humanitarian value were fought – successfully – by them. Madelaine Albright, talking about a half million childrens’ death, said “We think the price is worth it.”
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=115
Maryam is no fan of the Democratic Party. As a doctor working under sanction conditions, that’s not a surprise.
If Maryam spoke sharply, think of it as an urgent “wake up” call. If anyone is wondering why she’d say such a thing, they probably still need a bit of waking up.
Please wake up.
If you’re already awake, doing everything you can, you know this message doesn’t apply to you. If you are such a person, you will also be glad your less-awake partners in this endeavour can hear the things you might’ve been too polite to say.
We are all complicit in genocide in Iraq, and that is a harsh reality to face.
Although I will say there are millions yes millions of Americans who tried like hell to stop the invasion before it started. There are Americans who came to realize that their childrens, fathers etc lives had been used as cannon fodder in Iraq by the Bush administration and now stand against the war (Cindy Sheehan). There are millions of Americans who have become consumed with getting our soldiers out of a quagmire in Iraq that we created.
But there are also hundreds of millions of Americans who could care less about the Iraqi people, the mess we have created. It is this group of individuals that are especially frightening!
Germans prior to and during WWII considered themselves “special.” German was the culture of civilization and progress. Now Americans suffer from the same exceptionalism. Americans think they have created a Xanadu when in reality it they have created nothing more than corporate state with strong theocratic tendecies. As the Germans where a nation of sheep so are the Americans. Most Americans actually believe that the U.S. is the closet to perfection devised by man. Anyone that has travelled outside of the U.S. knows that this is just another myth foisted on the largely ignorant masses. America is not a nation of patriots but merely a nation of nationalists, many of them rabid.
Just read through all of the statements in regard to the discussion with Dr. Maryam. The anger that she/he? feels is completely understandable. Returning American soldiers are beginning to open up abou the brutality that some have taken part in and admitted that they too would become insurgents if what was taking place in Iraq was taking place in the U.S.
We wonder why so many people around the world hate us, we need to stop wondering and do everything we can do to make our nation a truely compassionate country. Which would mean getting on our collective knees and asking the Iraqi people to forgive us, accept responsibility (Hello Senator Clinton), start the regional conference with other nations in the middle east, stop supporting Israel no matter what they do, stop burning up incredible amounts of oil and gas. Later if we were truely attempting to do a recovery process from our addiction we would also apologize to all Native Americans, African Americans and any other peoples that we have oppressed and killed in the process of Manifest Destiny.
We are as sick as any addict, but our addiction to arrogance, oppression , oil and other resources is out of control and the wholed world knows it. The American people are drowning in their own greed and other peoples blood.
I agree with Maryam’s assessment that there ‘are no nice Amreicans’ We are all complicit, every voter, every taxpayer. It’s hard to acknowledge that America is an empire, no different from the Roman or British empires.
P.S.
The U.S.A. Army isn’t leaving Iraq till the oil is gone.
But we are not Germans. The German people have nothing to do this. How can the behavior of a generation of Germans who are for the most part deat provide explanations for what is going on in the U.S. today? What can possibly be the point of going back to a history from over 50 years ago on another continent and look for analogies? In fact, we would be better off if we thought how we could be like the Germans of today. It is facile to keep raking up their past almost as an explanation, justification for the perversity we are living through. The two situations are not comparable.
Amy Robertson @ 33
While Iraq is a war based on lies and imperialism under the Neocon Republicans, Viet Nam was a war based on lies (Gulf of Tonkin) and imperialism under the Great Society Democrats. Currenly the Military Industrial Complex and those who benifit from own most Democrats as well as Republicans. When Democrats speak of Iraq in terms of War Crimes under the Nuremburg Laws and that we should be prosecuting American leaders, I’ll know they are different from Republicans.
Thank you trex for this article which finally calls our foreign policy..what it is..genocide. To me, the Katrina recovery was genocide. (1) I have 4 reps. here in Maine. Will call them today in DC office. Called local offices yesterday…with another issue. (2) Will you , with your eloquent voice, keep a running dialogue on dem. prez candidates in the debates who are hawkish? Edwards disappointed me last night with his comments on Chavez and Castro…calling them what evil dictators? Castro is training doctors and sending them all over South America. Chavez wants to keep his oil for his country. With our recent history , these bizarre hawkish comments are important. Like keeping bombing Iran on the table. thanks trex
The thing is, the people who REALLY need to hear this are the ones least likely to listen.
T-Rex has always been one of my least favorite posters in the Progressive blogosphere and this is a perfect example of why. It’s basically self-righteous breastbeasting designed to say, “We are all guilty of genocide, but I’m a little less guilty because I write about it.” It’s filled with factual errors and questionable ethics.
It’s quite understandable that any Iraqi today would hate all Americans or not be able to tell us apart. That an American would endorse that pov is another matter.
It is also the attitude most likely to get Americans to vote Republican and thus create still more Iraqs, but hey, what is that compared to the need of some people for theatrical mea culpas?
Hi,
I accept Maryam’s diagnosis of American racism. Racism has shaped our collective response to a number of our foreign conflicts, and the Iraq war is no exception. There’s been a lot of frustrated head-scratching over the persistent belief that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks, and though some of that belief stems from the Bush administration’s deceptive linkage of Saddam and Al-Qaeda, the belief itself could not take root absent a receptive audience of ignorant bigots. It’s fair to say that millions of Americans, including the ones currently in power, believe that all Arabs are alike. I’d go so far as to say that the terms “Arab” and “muslim” are, to most of our fellow citizens, generally interchangeable.
To those who object to analogies with German Nazism, I’d remind you that British officers serving in Iraq complained that Americans regarded Iraqis as “untermenschen.” That word choice was deliberate, lacerating and came from our closest military ally.
Clem
To those that believe we should stay in Iraq because it will explode if we leave. Setting aside the very real possibility that the people of Iraq might be OVERJOYED if we left and might NOT kill each other, as we have killed them.
Imagine the possibility that you are wrong. AS so many were wrong when I used to say, in the winter of ‘03, that we should leave. Because if we didn’t leave at THAT time, the situation would deteriorate terribly. That’s what I was afraid of, in ‘03. Now, the situation HAS deteriorated terribly. We would be farther ahead NOW if we had left THEN.
Think about it. They’d be farther along now, if we’d have left THEN.
Imagine what it means if you, those of you who thought that idea was ridiculous then, imagine what it means if you’re wrong AGAIN now. What if we (and they…remember them, the Iraqis?) would have been better off if we’d have pulled out now. What if staying there now only increases an already unimaginably terrible situation?
What odds are you playing? Are you sure you’re looking at the real possibilities? Are you sure that what you’re afraid of is worse than what is SURE to come? As it was in ‘03?
How many people might be alive now, if we’d have left then? How might they have worked out “their” differences (since we blame them for the “civil war”) in a more stable, less war-torn country? Some cities would still be standing. It might have been easier to have pulled out then, no?
Think about it. Just…think about it.
What if you’re wrong? As SO many were in ‘03, when we could have left them still standing? Dear god, what if you’re wrong again?
I just don’t understand what “WE” had to do with this friggin war? I hate it; I didn’t vote for this guy, I worked against him in two STOLEN elections.
I refuse to accept this “we” are at fault cuz we “haven’t done enough cuz we’re still in Iraq.”
This regime answers to no one. There is NOTHING we can do to stop this war. We won’t get out until Halliburton is done making money there. Only then, will we get out.
I’m done being involved; done supporting democrats cuz w/exception of Gravel and Kucinich, they all suck.
The two parties are just two faces of Imperialism.
melfeasance @ 213
lfeasance @ 213:
sorry all – if anybody’s still paying attention – my comment got garbled with response to a quote – shouldn’t try to do too many things at the same time.