I understand about some people playing the “anti-semitic” card.

There’s nothing for it; we need to examine all of this.

I just got back from my first look at, and listen to, John Edwards, in a campaign appearance at a Union Steelworkers hall in Georgetown, S.C.

I was, as usual, obstreporous. :o) He called on me for the first question after he spoke. (And spoke very well)

I thanked he and Elizabeth for coming to a small-town venue. Maybe 250 people packing what amounted to a fair-sized classroom. SRO…and then:

“Mr. Edwards, as of two months ago, you had a statement on your website that you had not taken any donations that were channeled to you from AIPAC. Is that still true, and do you plan to continue that policy?”

Edwards: “I have taken no PAC funds, and will not take any.”

At which point, I said “Thank you” and sat down.

I hope no one here thinks I’m anti-semitic, because I am not.

My immediately preceding comment will have tripped your filter.

I will say also my commiserations to Rayne. I know a little I think how it must feel for you. Not much but a little.

Guides is written mostly by Irakis in Irak. You met one of them and she spoke to you honestly and without pretense. Many of you were “hurt” did you expect one of your country’s victims to love you? To feel anything other than hate? Some tried to say “I am not to blame” understandable. But there is a difference between guilt for a crime, culpability, and responsibility. And every single American whether they like it or not. Is responsible for what their government and their army does.

It’s Americans who until very recently liked to say “people get the government they deserve” I suggest you start to think about that. Because what really hurts it seems to me is that Americans can longer say:

“We’re the good guys – right?”

WRONG.

One person raised a non-issue whether or not Maryam was a Ba’athist. althespook says that this is a concern. I have to say that for someone who says that he was at one time a professional inteligence officer I found the question surprising.

I find myself wondering whether it was an attempt to shirk American responsibility by impugning her motives. Because as a professional inteligence officer he would be well aware that if you wanted to go to college in Irak then you were required to join and attend Ba’ath party meetings. That or be thrown out of college and left to the tender mercies of the Mukhbarat. That is how dictators work.

The person to have asked was that Maryam and here’s the reply she would have given.

“Of course I was in the Ba’ath party why do you think I’m alive?”

As she is now on her way back to Irak I am giving you her reply for her.

I think we should also lay the red herring that Ba’athist Irak wasn’t anything other than horrible. It was. If you kept your head low you were ok. But if you raised even the smallest suspicion. Then you were dead and it wasn’t quick and it wasn’t clean. What happened if you actively opposed Saddam?

Let me give you an example:

Ali who writes on our site was one of the people who rose against Saddam. He doesn’t know where his wife and children are buried. He does know that they died screaming and begging for death because the mukhbarrat – Saddam’s secret police, made sure he got a tape. The only reason he is alive is because he was badly wounded in the uprising and was smuggled across the border before the mukhbarat got to him. But they still managed to track him down and send him a tape of his wife and children screaming for death to come.

You would think would you not that that would be a hard act to follow?

Saddam was bad, evil to the point where the word vile ….

does not even start to describe ….

to manage to create something worse is one hell of an accomplishment. And I find that I have no word for what your country has done. All I can do is quote what my dad markfromireland says:

“Well done I hope you’re fucking proud of yourselves.”

They want you out because they have no reason whatsoever to believe in America’s benevolence. [Mod: edited to remove rape reference]

And I am sorry if that analogy hurts you. But it’s nothing compared to what the Irakis are going through. To post on our site here is what they have to do:

Everything they write is double and thriple checked by two vetting teams of Irakis.

One team lives there.

One team are refugees. “In exile” as Mohammed politely puts it.

Anything that could even remotely identify them is removed. If even one censor vetos then the entire posting is not published.

That rule is unbreakable. Disobey and you are removed from the team. If you even protest you are removed from the team.

That is how bad it is.

Here is what I have done. I phoned Irak and spoken to Dad to Mohammed, Saba Ali, and others on the team. With great generosity and considerable courage. Mohammed has been trying to open dialogue with Americans. Here is what he says:

The American War Against Islam

What America is doing is a new crusade the first that was launched was under the pretense of religion and European used it to unite their culture which was rising again from that it had gone to barbarism when Rum fell.

This new American crusade is without even bad excuse of false religion by which I means saying as the reason war in name of teachings of your Prophet Isa

This crusade is a crusade of western secularism. And the crass and crude materialism that it gave birth to.

This is new crusade for greed and for culture and society that was built on genocide and slavery and theft on whole society bult on denying that the world is the creation of God and that tries to pretend to itself that when it rapes the world for its owh profit when it poisons its own lands and rivers and the air that you breathe and that I too must breathe that it is not committing corrupting disgusting sin against God.

And it can do this because it lies to itself saying that religion and world are separate, as a Muslim I tell you that they are not separate

To put manmade things above God is the source of evil that America has become. The evil in side your land and your culture is like in the story told by your Prophet Isa (PBUH) about how rulers of the Jews in his time were like the graves that they built outside very pretty but inside corrupt and dead and would disease you if you touched it and did not wash the contamination away. Because the corrupt this dead evil thing in American is what it is that lets America say that “we are owners.”

“We can own slave we can take and loot and exploit what we will we can wipe out whole nations that were here first because government and will of God are two separated things.”

And what it is that has died are the manmade things you call “democracy” and “constitution” and “republic” these are what is dead and corrupted things behind the smiling face of America and they died because it was manmade thing. I have read it and read many American things and they are noble and good but they are manmade and so they die and fall to corruption and dangerous badness but hidden by outside beauty of the words and the noble idea that has died.

It died because it was manmade and your rulers lied to their people and told them that happiness comes from material things that only progress possible is material progrees and must always buy more and more and more new things at false price never count cost to people things used to make these new shiny things that your people believe they must have to make their dream of finding happiness come true. And it is easy to believe these lies no? Feel heart swell with unearned pride. Feel eyes fill with unearned pride when seeing your flag? “Old Glory” what is glorious about Abu Ghraib? Where was glory in rape of Abeer? Where was glory in chemical weapons against Fallujah? And then go home and use unearned luxury unearned event though maybe person worked hard for it because real price was paid by me and by my people or by people in south american lands or by people in Africa or by anyone except them and their rulers.

In Islam we call this “Shirk” and it means idolatry. The worshipping of a false God. The worshipping of unearned comfort the worshipping of the belief that you may take what you will and do what you will and if any opposed why then we are evil and must be killed or tortured or raped or starved until we understand that America is new master race like the Germans believed they were-

When I and my Iraki brothers go out onto internet — I say “Iraki” and not “Muslim” brothers because several of us are followers of Prophet Isa (PBUH) — and read what is written on American sites about the war America is making against even those who say against war they talk alwqys of what war is doing to them what war is doing to their people maybe as by the side thing one will make comment of oh must not forget poor Irakis. Poor dirty little sand nigger who have been treaten like dog shot by amrican soldier we must be nice to poor dog. But still just dog. Human dog perhaps but still just dog. Bind up human dogs wounds but still just dog. Human Dog who certailny must not be allowed run own home because really not human just dog.

THere are good Americans just as there were good Germans and just as there were good Turks when Turks did genocide in Armenia I am willing to beleive that you are one but you must understand this.

I am a Muslim I am Iraki maybe you believe that God told you that must turn aside when you have been struck.

That is not what God tells me.

What God tells me is what he tells every other Muslim when you are attacked you defend yourself and you keep on figthing until your attacker is in such pain that they offer truce or surrender. You attack back and you continue attacking relentlessly, never ever giving any respite, until the invader flees worn out with grief and horror and pain. Any sacrifice is warranted to expel the American

I feel no grief when I see an American soldier die. I feel only relief that this one less barbarian to kill innocent Iraki children.

What shall we talk about today you and I?

Mohammed Ibn Laith

I am going to finish by pointing out something. “Guides” is not written even remotely with an American audience in mind. Or a civilian one either come to that. It is part of a larger project of bridge building. We have Americans who read, and comment there. Rarely. But not even once has one of them thought to ask.

What are the divides being bridged? By whom is the bridge being built? Why? And for whom?

Not. Even. Once.

du

Anyone who wants to measure the level of insanity of bush and the neo-cons, as they made their “plans” and pimped their war, needs look no farther than the fact that one of the benchmarks of their fantasies, was that they thought they would be allowed to rebuild that old Mosul-to-Haifa pipeline; run it across northern Iraq, and then across Syria (!), and down into Haifa, where they could start tankering out lots of oil for the U.S. and Britain. With, of course, a big skim for Israel.

THAT, friends and neighbors, was the stuff of purest idiocy.

And, to the mods:

“Steamy evening” or cool fall evening; the debate on the degree of influence which Isreal exercises on amercan foreign policy goes squarely to the heart of this miserable war that bush and his administration have embroiled us in.
The influence which AIPAC and the Irael lobby have on our policies is, by any yardstick, worthy of discussion. And when better than now to talk about that, even rant about it, as the question of how to get our troops home and let the people of Iraq decide if they need an even bloodier civil war than what is now going on, or if they all need to make some huge compromises, to avoid that, is so important?

I thought IanWelsh’s post at #167, was a worthy contribution to the discussion here. Thoughtful, calm, and not uneven-handed, in his assessment of our relationship with Israel.

I was astounded to see him threatened by one of the mods here. Some people who check in here regularly, but don’t post, think that FDL has a pro-Isreal agenda, which would tie in with the support for Hillary which a number of the staff here have shown. I’m not saying that is so, but I think it’s a valid point to raise. In fact, when I was posting about AIPAC’s moving money toward political candidates, and about their involvement in spying, it ruffled some pro-Isreal feathers on some people who post here, who just did NOT want to talk about that.

Siun, are you seriously claiming that we should NOT bring up controversial subjects such as the discussion of Israel, because the moderators are tired or because they’re volunteers?

I think that’s nonsense.

Jane, I’m sure you’re keeping up with this thread. You and the staff do yourselves a disservice by trying to keep such a tight restriction on the subject matter. Particularly when it’s presented in a way that invites reasonable discussion, as Ian’s did.

If you’re worried about controversial and heated posts, then you’re going to need a cattle-prod, because we haven’t begun to experience the intramural disagreements about this war, the people who created it, the people who are sustaining it, and the people who want to end our active participation in it.

BTW, Trex, do you think that it is the policy of the Israeli government to support the removal of american troops from Iraq? It’s a rhetorical question; You’re not a fool.

And since that policy has a LARGE influence on the american political scene, I think that we should discuss it freely and openly, particularly since practically everyone posting here wants our troops home, and soon.
I’m sorry, but when Hillary Clinton talks about her plans to “end the war”, anyone with a brain should ask her about her strong ties to AIPAC and about her cozy and on-going relationship with Joe Lieberman; two entities who most definitely do NOT want to “end the war”.

Rex, you guys need to let us roll some. If you keep on yanking on leashes, when we’re posting reasonable and valid questions, you’ll turn into just another blog with a narrow little agenda; and a confused one, at that.

Tanbark, it’s about avoiding anything that can be construed as “anti-Semitic”. Even though one can read criticism of the Israeli government in Israeli newspapers that makes the harshest stuff posted here sound timid.

THAT, friends and neighbors, was the stuff of purest idiocy.

And, to the mods:

“Steamy evening” or cool fall evening; the debate on the degree of influence which Isreal exercises on amercan foreign policy goes squarely to the heart of this miserable war that bush and his administration have embroiled us in.
The influence which AIPAC and the Irael lobby have on our policies is, by any yardstick, worthy of discussion. And when better than now to talk about that, even rant about it, as the question of how to get our troops home and let the people of Iraq decide if they need an even bloodier civil war than what is now going on, or if they all need to make some huge compromises, to avoid that, is so important?

I thought IanWelsh’s post at #167, was a worthy contribution to the discussion here. Thoughtful, calm, and not uneven-handed, in his assessment of our relationship with Israel.

I was astounded to see him threatened by one of the mods here. Some people who check in here regularly, but don’t post, think that FDL has a pro-Isreal agenda, which would tie in with the support for Hillary which a number of the staff here have shown. I’m not saying that is so, but I think it’s a valid point to raise. In fact, when I was posting about AIPAC’s moving money toward political candidates, and about their involvement in spying, it ruffled some pro-Isreal feathers on some people who post here, who just did NOT want to talk about that.

Siun, are you seriously claiming that we should NOT bring up controversial subjects such as the discussion of Israel, because the moderators are tired or because they’re volunteers?

I think that’s nonsense.

Jane, I’m sure you’re keeping up with this thread. You and the staff do yourselves a disservice by trying to keep such a tight restriction on the subject matter. Particularly when it’s presented in a way that invites reasonable discussion, as Ian’s did.

If you’re worried about controversial and heated posts, then you’re going to need a cattle-prod, because we haven’t begun to experience the intramural disagreements about this war, the people who created it, the people who are sustaining it, and the people who want to end our active participation in it.

BTW, Trex, do you think that it is the policy of the Israeli government to support the removal of american troops from Iraq? It’s a rhetorical question; You’re not a fool.

And since that policy has a LARGE influence on the american political scene, I think that we should discuss it freely and openly, particularly since practically everyone posting here wants our troops home, and soon.
I’m sorry, but when Hillary Clinton talks about her plans to “end the war”, anyone with a brain should ask her about her strong ties to AIPAC and about her cozy and on-going relationship with Joe Lieberman; two entities who most definitely do NOT want to “end the war”.

Rex, you guys need to let us roll some. If you keep on yanking on leashes, when we’re posting reasonable and valid questions, you’ll turn into just another blog with a narrow little agenda; and a confused one, at that.

wigwam @ 209

FWIW, Maryam is saying exactly what I would say (less eloquently) if foreign troops were to occupy the U.S. and do and say the things that we all know our troops have done and said. I suspect that the average Iraqi is better informed than the average American regarding what is going on there.

That’s why I said I was likely in a minority here. I don’t think I would say that ALL those who are citizens of the occupying power are responsible and that it is “in your nature” and part of your values.

Maybe if we were invaded by a foreign power I’d be one of those hauled out and shot as a collaborator for not stereotyping everyone from the invaders nation.

I don’t believe that it was in the German “nature” or “values” to kill the Jews, or the Turks “nature” to kill the Armenians. At the same time there were cultural and historical events that ALLOWED those things to occur. And not everyone was involved.

If all can be held equally responsible then what the hell are we doing considering impeaching Bush and Cheney…or calling them for “war crimes”. According to Maryam they are just doing OUR bidding…expressing our VALUES.

I’m not disputing her on the ground knowledge OVER THERE…but, likewise, she’s not over HERE. I doubt that she’s ever been to the US. She’s a nurse, and as such going to see the carnage on a mania-producing daily scale. That may not make her even an “average Iraqi”…she’s seen the worst, day after day.

I understand the frustration and anger…and realize that these are the real sentiments of many Iraqis…but she’s WRONG, WRONG, WRONG in her ideas. And they are polarizing, however “authentic”. Generalizing her hatred, even to all US soldiers, much less all Americans, is likely only to involve her in serious difficulties. And in that context, with US military guys who are stressed, ill-trained and hyped up by propaganda…if she makes such a statement to the wrong Marine she’s likely to end up, at best, jailed…and, I don’t want to imagine what would happen in a worst case scenario. Would a President Giuliani, Thompson or even most Democratic contenders feel any qualms about using nuclear weapons on a failed state that actually was generating hundreds of more terrorists?

I hope, and pray, that Maryam is an anomaly…or that her position would be different upon reflection (as many internet statements are).

Gandhi USED the VALUES of the British Nation to embarass and shame them into decolonizing.

And to a large extent the Vietnamese appealed to the HUMAN VALUES of Americans (e.g. My Lai) to stop the war in Viet Nam (along with a heck of an insurgency).

I wish I had said that!

A hug for Rayne. And another one for raven, just because…

don’t know if you are still watching this thread… but i wanted to let you know that i read what you wrote and my heart goes out to you and to your family.

(((((Rayne)))))

i hope this will help (and not hurt you more)… the way i see it is that maryam is right to say what she says and to challenge us… especially our natural desire to scapegoat bushco when our problems go much deeper than that.

but that does not make you a monster, i know you are not. i know that you are an inspiration to many people (including me).

please ignore me if my words add to your pain. peace.