I wanted to spotlight a comment on the previous post by litbrit, who also posts at Ezra Klein’s place.
For those who question Maryam’s motives, or who can’t or won’t attempt to empathize with anger such as hers, I would ask this:
Have you ever held a dying child in your arms? Let’s say, any dying child, not necessarily one who’s been grievously injured during a war, since we’ve been pretty fortunate not to have been occupied by a bomb-launching enemy over here in the States.
Or, have you ever tried to comfort a child who’s lost his parents, his baby sister, and his right arm? How about a child blinded in a fire or explosion?
Because this is what Maryam does every day. This is what Maryam has been doing.
I am a mother of three beautiful sons. I look at all children everywhere with the same awe and wonder; I cannot fathom the despair, the anger, and the pain she must feel after witnessing one such tragedy; after trying to care for just one child wounded in this horrific, immoral, illegal war; after looking into just one little pair of eyes searching for a mother who will never appear. It defies my imagination to even try.
Yet this is what Maryam does–for how many wounded, for how many orphaned?–because she must.
Her anger must become our anger. Real anger, I mean. Not the make-nice, politics-as-usual tv anger our elected officials effect when it behooves them to have a sound bite published. Real, action-fueling anger.
Amen, sister.
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
Zed? T-Rex!
I agree.
Take some action, this has to end.
I almost got my second zed of the day.
Has downstairs been told?
Apropos last night, Maryam mentioned her nephew, Mohammed Ibn Laith. He posted this today on Gorilla Guides.
You also might find this posting from McClatchy’s Baghdad Bureau chief today. Read to the bottom for the gimme quote.
The emotions that we are all dealing with are the result of this incessant war, the unecessary deaths, the vicious political manipulations, the feckless leadership and the realization that the America we knew or thought we knew no longer exists.
These are the times that try humans souls.
-GSD
Oh yeah, Joe Lieberman is a dick too.
trex and maryam…
I marched in early 2003 to protest the inevitable invasion…
I read and read and read about what the US has done to Iraq… destroying their infrastructure so American companies could rebuild, destroying their military to inadvertently create the insurgencey (all chronicled in “Baghdad Year Zero” by Naomi Klein in a great Harper’s article in 2003)…
I sent out e-mail alerts and protests to the media as the massacre in Fallujah was happening.
I cried last fall,without being able to stop, at the atrocities America was inflicting, and had inflicted for years, on an innocent country… with no provocation. Wondering where was the mass protest in America.
I marched in DC in January 2007 with United for Peace and Justice (one person out of approx 800,000, which the media reported as “10s of thousands”)… I carried a sign that read “660,000 Iraqis killed”… one of only a handfull I saw that addressed Iraqi deaths.
I helped to coordinate people from NM going to the march.
I cried this spring without being able to stop at the atrocities America was inflicting on an innocent country… with no provocation.
I’ve called Domenici (a Repub who finally has seen the light, yet is not calling for US withdrawal) and Bingaman (a Dem who doesn’t think withdrawal is the “right” thing to do).
I’ve sent e-mails to all of my friends asking for action on their part, inspiring call as well to the congress and Senate.
I told a friend of mine today… I don’t know what else I can do…. honestly, it doesn’t seem as if anyone can have an impact when the President is out of control and does not answer to any person or Congressional group within the United States.
I’ve been in quite a depression the past few months at the seeming hopelessness of it all… granted, less that 1% of what the poor people in Iraq have suffered as their country has been destroyed by the US dictator…
Please tell me what else I can do to end this nightmare and I’ll do it.
howdy.
How’s everyone?
Good evening dear friends. I fear that this evening’s posts may be a bit too emotionally charged for me this evening. I think I was hoping for something lighter.
GSD @ 8
Amen to all of that.
Remember, also, that every minute we spend sniping at each other is a minute in which no progress is being made toward stopping the real enemy.
patrick rex @ 10
Hey Patrick. Good to see you.
patrick rex @ 10
Where’s your tour gotcha this evening?
I will share with all of you that the most powerful message to officeholders is the message we deliver ourselves by going to see them where they work. I would recommend this very highly. Make appointments or, if your community is not so security-conscious as most, drop by. Speak with any staffer who will take time to talk with you. Bring a printout of Dr Maryam’s comments from last evening. Ask them to read her comments while you wait. Ask what they think. Ask what they will tell their boss. Ask what you can do to move their boss to action.
The California Roots group’s meeting in April 2006 made an impact, I believe, on our California Senators’ attitudes towards the strong possibility of War On Iran. But — we did not keep up those efforts, and our Senators both voted this month for the Lieberman unanimous resolution. If we all must do something, I will tell you that taking the time from your busy day to keep an appointment with a staffer to your representative or Senator makes an impact. A very large impact.
I will call my contacts in both Senators’ SF offices tomorrow to try to see them again, on the subject of our brutal occupation of Irak. I will also call the field director of Nancy Pelosi’s office here in San Francisco.
If enough of us did this, change might happen. Might.
TexB @ 11
Then bail for tonight. Everyone here loves you, and that’s not going to change because you check out for one night.
cc — thank you for all you do.
TexB @ 11
G’night B. Same here.
Remember, also, that every minute we spend sniping at each other is a minute in which no progress is being made toward stopping the real enemy.
thank you, burns.
a great post to spotlight.
heartwrenching.
some photos a few month back of a little Iraqi girl wailing, spattered in blood, after American soldiers shot up her family at a checkpoint were widely published internationally.
it’s what the world thinks of when they think of Americans now.
great to hear so many folks here determined to do something…we all need help, we all need to help.
it got to seeming all EPU-ish so
i’m reposting myself from below:
i’m a wimp.
i can only deal or deal with so much rage.
before it becomes action-depleting.
i bounce the rage-depression back and forth and then i have to go for self-preservation.
and Maryam doesn’t have to care about any of that, but i do care about Maryam and her people.
Great to highlight that one.
Now how long until we a see a screen-long comment talking about themselves and how they don’t think that’s fair?
Hundreds of thousands have died, many innocent bystanders caught in the middle. Imagine your child, sister, mother, son, and other loved ones bombed to bits from an invading country. You’d really feel “uncomfortable” then.
Once we HELP END this madness, maybe then we could discuss how feelings can be hurt from rude language.
TeddySanFran @ 15
That sounds like great advice, TSF, but I’m not sure how to implement it in CA-40. I think it’s a waste of time to try and have a dialogue with Ed Royce, and I could write checks until my hand falls off and all that $ would never add up to a viable challenge. I work too damn hard for that $ to piss it away on a no-hope campaign; it’s going somewhere where it will matter.
CTuttle @ 14
I am home and in bed, thanks. The tour ended a few days ago in Costa Mesa, CA, where we were nearly derailed by MASSIVELY incompetent local stagehands. All that said, the show was basically ok, and I got home in one piece, thanks for asking.
Some real downer posts tonight, though. I don’t have much to add to that.
War is an evil genie that doesn’t go quietly back into the bottle.
Dickhead Bush, if he had read more than The Pet Goat before 9/11 would have known that.
But now we are at the stage when the proverbial chickens come home to roost.
Shattered Americans, a tattered economy, a hollowed out democracy and soon the embittered radical diaspora, like the one that spread out from Afghanistan after Russians left and brought misery to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tanzania and Algeria and the US.
They ain’t following us, they don’t need the directions.
-GSD
TexB… thanks. But I am crying again… it is all so overwhelming. Such death and destruction… all for lies. Forgive me folks, but this is a heavy topic for me.
Much of the sting from Maryam’s stark and graphic words is centered around our own isolation and inability to be of significant and concrete use. I know that I have not done enough yet feel that what I have done was useless.
Protest (as if we were French)
and then do it again.
and again.
We need to organize an effective nationwide protest. I know we have passion and conviction but it is like we all have ADD.
Every day I think “I should go down to the capital building in Sac, bring my sign and picket this government”. When I get back to Sac on Wednesday I am going to do it. With PEACE in my heart.
TeddySanFran @ 15
((((( TEDDY !)))))
Dang. I need to put in a couple hours of work before calling it a night. Good night, friends.
patrick rex @ 24
Glad to hear you’re home safe and sound! I agree it is a depressing post, War is hell!!!
GSD @ 25
The US the Founders had in mind did not celebrate the military and police forces on the 4th of July like you see now. America, the 4th of July, is not about that. It is about celebrating this great experiment we are all taking part of. A pluralistic society. A secular society. An immigrant society. If you cannot trace your lineage back to the Mayflower, and did not come over after WWII as a professional, odds are your kin started out poor. And that is what Europeans and the Japanese love about us. Trust me, I know many of both. They don’t love the bombing, the bullying, the military, and the scare tactics.
Sometime the news is bad. It is tonight, though it has been bad for quite some time, but we are just getting a taste of it here.
The news was bad 231 years ago, but we got through it. The news was bad in 1915, but we got through it. The news was bad in 1938, but we got through it. The news was bad in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq…where it continues to be bad. And the news was bad when King George stole the election. We got through all of it, and we will do it yet again. If you must (and I plan to), pour yourself a glass of whatever calms you down and go to bed. But wake up in the knowledge that we will prevail. This I believe, after having read some history. And we need to keep our spirits up. There are darker days ahead, yet we will prevail. I feel it in my bones. We ARE the people of the United States, the ones from whom power obtains, to quote Jefferson. We will prevail, even if we must turn out every legislator, and hold the IMPEACHMENT with a group that better represents us. To quote Cindy Sheehan. “I do not love this country right now….” and it’s high time we did something about it.
g’nite burns
burnspbesq @ 12
Who is the real enemy and how do we stop them? Seems to me this sort of conversation has value, since it’s clear there is a wide variety of opinion even at place of like-minded people. It’s good to get this stuff out there, and many are likely challenging their opinions, and in theory anyway, our “movement” is coalescing a little bit more around common ground now.
I like threads like this. Spirited debate is good, and hopefully more and more will happen nationally. In fact, it has to, to knock America out of it’s collective apathetic state.
i think collective guilt is a tricky thing… does all of white america feel guilty about native american genocide and african american slavery? should all germans feel guilty about the holocaust?
not to assuage any guilt about what’s being done in iraq, but the main difference is that it’s here and now. the germans who sat back and watched their neighbors get marched off to the death camps shared in that act with silent complicity. those that worked to thwart it did not.
this is here and now, and we’re all working to change this (hopefully). could we do more.. of course. if we sat on our asses, we deserve whatever hatred any iraqi has (rightfully) towards us. then again, is it understandable that an iraqi would hate all americans regardless of our actions… yes.
do i feel personal guilt about the american war in iraq? no. am i ashamed of it? beyond words.
In Desert Storm, Iraq suffer tens of thousands of deaths. I’ve read estimates from 30,000 to 300,000.
It is generally accepted that in combat there are on the order of ten wounded per one killed.
I’m told that at the end of the war, we had 50,000 Iraqi prisoners, about 150 of whom required medical attention.
What happened to the other 300,000 to 3,000,000 Iraqi wounded? And, how come nobody ever asks? Huh?
the war is killing peace for the next 100 years
Meanwhile Michael Gordon spits up his latest stomach-full of Bush propaganda.
The US is drawing up plans for occupation through to 2009.
Also we are introduced to the latest in Republican Politically Correct Speech:
It’s not a civil war, it’s a “communal struggle for power”.
-GSD
cynic @ 32
We will not prevail if we are complacent about the risks democracy confronts.
Dear ones, this is what I have to say, for me. I expect myself to study and learn about things and to respond to what is true. I expect myself to make choices based on what I know, and not back down for the sake of convenience or to ‘fit in.’ I write to elected officials and talk to anyone I can hoodwink into listening and try to live what I preach. I don’t feel very effective, but I keep on. I do what acts of kindness and helpfulness I can, where I can.
What I believe is this: all my acts are like stones falling in the lake. I cannot see how far the ripples extend. I cannot know what the ultimate effect will be. It isn’t for me to do only things that I’m sure are effective. Only to do what I can and keep on doing them. To do them when I’m depressed and when I’m feeling hopeful and when I’m sick and tired or guilty or ashamed; always to keep on doing them.
cc in nm @ 26
no earthly reason to ask for our forgiveness.
it is indeed a very heavy heart wrenching reality of the we live in.
of this country many of us live in.
our military has fought a war of aggression, occupied a zero-threat country, and now has been depicted to the world as war criminals and torturers.
i know a lot of decent patriots in our military.
my dad was one.
this smear against, not only our armed forces, but against all americans, sickens me.
chensyBu$hCo is responsible for this.
they must be repudiated.
everywhere.
BigMitch @ 39
Agree 100% But I think we are becoming aware.
Cynic
September 15th March on Washington
cynic @ 32
AMEN, Brother!
Breaking News:
Libya has released the six foreign nurses accused of causing HIV infections.
-GSD
Laura Doty @ 40
wtf @ 37
everyone calls the Israeli/Palestinian issue the heart of middle east conflict(which it is)… i fear iraq will overshadow even that.
G’night doggies.
Be good to one and all.
-GSD
Mary McCurnin @ 27
Even if I were useful in Maryam’s situation, I’d still feel much as she does, I suspect. She’s utterly helpless to do anything about her situation (I can empathize with that feeling a little, I feel the same way about trying to change this situation).
The other thing is that the Americans she’s noticing the most are the ones who are doing the most damage. You have to think that they aren’t going to be called to account that often, particularly if they’re some of the “security” contractors. Even if most of us don’t like what’s going on and want to change it, that doesn’t mean squat to her right now because we haven’t. As a society, we’ve let this continue.
I wrote this a few months ago:
I dread the answer to that question more every month.
GSD @ 38
Fucking stenographer.
What happened to all the “lessons learned” from Gordon’s articles written with Judy Miller?
that is good news, GSD – got a link?
I understand Maryam’s anger and the anger of the people of Iraq but my old cynicism doesn’t allow me to give any of them much hope.
37 or 36 years ago we in Vietnam Veterans Against the War tried to tell the country what the true cost of that war was. But, well, damn few people paid attention and then the country took the easy out and happily let it self be led away from the memories/lessons of that war.
One of the questions I have to ask is, will this country ever recover from this debacle? The Republican Party has led this country into such a depth of dishonor and moral and fiscal bankruptcy that no one in there right mind will trust us for generations.
One man, one Party is responsible for the destruction of this country.
Actually no, let me restate that, WE allowed this to happen. The American people, who so jealously guard our prize of citizenship we happily let illegals die in the desert, never used our common sense enmasse to push the Republican Party to the curb of history.
Now the whole damn world is going to suffer ’cause we were too fucking lazy.
My comment didn’t follow along.
I do what acts of kindness and helpfulness I can, where I can.
my comment was…
I hear you. I try to do the same.
GSD @ 45
link
I am ashamed of the actions over in Irak to Dr Maryam’s people, but there is very little i can do besides being a tiny thorn in the side of those in power. I do’nt have the resources to do much beyond that.
I care for my patients daily, and try to keep my own health up. That’s the sad part of this country. Between the apathy and the hopelessness, you never quite feel like you can make a difference. I can do the little things, its all i can do without putting my own home in jeopardy. Because in my case? If i DO lose my job, i do end up homeless. There’s no where for me to fall back to right now.
I’ll give to the Red Crescent when i can (and i will keep giving when i have a bit to spare). I can’t stop her hatred, but i can do the little thing to stop that occupation. Which is to be one of many naggling voices to the Rubber Stamper called my representative of the House, and one of many speaking loudly to my two Dem Senators. I want the occupation and the suffering to end, but there’s very little i can do besides make myself heard in the small ways i can. I’m persistant, if nothing else.
dachoste @ 47
Not everyone thinks that the Israeli/Palestinian issue is the heart of middle east conflict. I, and many others, think that it is an important issue because on one side is the most important and reliable strategic ally of the United States, and on the other side is a people who have been deprived of dignity and freedom, who have been failed by their leaders, who have been kicked out of Jordan, and Lebanon. Worse, many mid-east leaders use the Israeli/Palestinian to divert attention from the failings of their own corrupt regimes. And it works. Why do you think Saddam paid suicide bombers in Israel?
TeddySanFran @ 50
I’m guessing that Gordon wasn’t one of those who learned them. Either that or the lesson learned isn’t one we wanted him to learn, like “It pays to pander to the rich and powerful”.
Good night, everyone. Be light.
Thank you TRex for both these posts.
A stowaway who hopped-skipped the proclamation line yielded many a patriot in our line. Then again, back then, a high percentage of a low population did volunteer. ;)
Cujo359 @ 57
“Deep Throat” told Bernstein and Woodward to “follow the money.” Today’s journalists interpret that to mean “It pays to pander to the rich and powerful” I would tell you what that makes them, but I don’t want to insult the streetwalkers of the world.
Paris: HIV nurses leave Libya
seems decent of the first lady.
“Cecilia Sarkozy”
i know nothing about her but i LOVE her name.
Good night everyone. Tomorrow I’m going to check on Teddy’s roots group. I didn’t know there was one, but it figures!
;)
The real irony in this is that the place in which the Iraqi doctor gets a hearing is in a place full of people who opposed the war and did what they could to tell the government it was a grave mistake and a moral error.
Not many ugly Americans in this bunch.
What I learned on my vacation in Crete Greece….
It is an island in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea which has been conquered and occupied by one empire after another. There are a thousand sad stories of sieges, slaughters and resistance fighting, memorials and statues dedicated to the fine brave Cretans who fought for their freedom over and over again. They were occupied by the Ottoman Turks for over 400 years but continued to fight for their freedom which they won early in the 1900’s to loose it to the Nazi’s. Again, the resistance fought against that new occupier with new monuments and statues with more sad stories.
But what you see today is a thriving economy, a resilient people who have created a economic base of small businesses, small family farms and the tourist industry.
So what did I learn?
That these fine people did not give up fighting for their freedom, that they did not become complacent and continue today to maintain their spirit of resistance by shooting holes in road signs as their resistance against authority.
Americans want things instantly… that is why we have fast foods and a pill for everything. To maintain freedom we must fight for it everyday, we cannot put down the banner because not doing anything is giving THEM permission to take it all away.
do-si-do @ 59
Glenn Greenwald showed an interesting graph in his column today, comparing participation vs. population for America’s wars. Turns out this one has been joined by less than 0.5 percent of Americans (Glenn’s math is off a bit). This is roughly on par with the War of 1812, when we barely had a military, and only slightly better than the Spanish-American War, which is in many ways the one most like this, I think.
Hey, katymine. Other than that, how was Crete?
(suzanne…i just am peeking in…does this make up for the slumber party nite?)
Wonderful….. water so clear and blue…. red-pink beaches. THE best food, fresh with no chemicals. They have gone organic too…. most of the homes ALL have solar water heaters and the cliffs overlooking the coast have wind farms.
From By What Authority, Spring 2007
On a date two days after his death, Martin Luther King was scheduled to deliver the already prepared sermon,”Why America May Go to Hell.” Here are some excerpts from that text:
“Even when pressed by the demands of inner truth, men (sic) do not easily assume the task of opposing their government’s policy; especially in time of war. Nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against all the apathy of conformist through within one’s own bosom and in the surrounding world…we are always on the verge of being mesmerized by uncertainty…We must speak with all the humility that is appropriate to our limited vision, but we must speak…
A few years ago…it seemed as if there was a real promise of hope for the poor, both black and white, through the proverty programs. There were experiments, hopes, new beginnings. Then came the buildup of Viet Nam, and I watched this program be broken and eviscerated as if it were some idle political plaything of a society gone mad on war. And I knew America would never invest in the necessary funds or energies in rehabiiition.
on of its poor so long as adventures like Viet Nam continued to draw men and skills and money like some demonic destructive suction tube…I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government…we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values.
We must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered…True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It becomes necessary to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring…A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death…We are now faced with the fact, my friends, that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now…We must move past indecision to action.”
Credit: BY WHAT AUTHORITY, Spring, 2007- a publication of the Program on Corporations, Law and Democracy
demi @ 67
hey demi…. the slumber party nite was fun
if texas (the republic of) was invaded by, oh say, iraq … and they wiped out our military and killed our governor (sorry, rick perry), destroyed our infrastructure and occupied texas and i saw and knew of large numbers of people being slaughtered, including family and friends, including children killed in front of their parents and parents murdered in front of their children …
i’d be Maryam.
easy.
i’d get a rocket launcher.
Help me find an appropriate analogy. When I hear the Bushies in government and/or the media argue that withdrawal will cause Iraq greater hardship (e.g., ethnic cleansing) than the occupation has already caused, the image that comes to my mind is that of a rapist caught in flagrante arguing that it would be best for his victim for him to stay in the saddle.
Why isn’t the obvious absurdity of the Bushian logic cause for immediate outrage and/or myrth?
In fact, their logic gets even worse. They claim that they must stay in Iraq to train the Iraqi military. Train them to do what you might ask. The answer is, to train them to be more effective soldiers, i.e., to be more lethal. Note that these are Sunni and Shiite boys who tend to go AWOL and join their comrades fighting U.S. forces, and in that fight they are becoming ever more lethal.
Someday we are going to leave. And then the forces whose lethality we’ve enhanced will go at each other in a major civil war over grievances too ancient to remember. Therefore, so the logic goes, we must not leave because … that war would be too lethal. Aarrgghhh.
Suzanne @ 70
I was only here for a minute…I asked that the stereo be turned down.
Got a feather in the eye.
There currently are two pertinent articles that may interest those seeking more background information or indeed primary info concerning Iraq and the ME at zmag.org/znet site.
One is an article by Paut Street under the July 21 entries titled RATIONAL FEARS…
The other is an article by Tony Karon under the July 22 entries titled BUSH AND MIDEAST…
Both articles are worthy of the time taken to seek out,read and consider…
I encourage anyone who is looking for more to read and consider about Iraq,the ME or other interesting takes and views on global social issues,political issues or economic issues to visit zmag.org often.
It surely is worthy of your time and will prove to be often enlightening and condusive to broader point of view and knowledge horizons. :-)
BigMitch@56
they sure are important, I’ll give you that.
They’ve been given at least $108 Billion of US taxpayer dollars.
http://www.informationclearing…..e14083.htm
what do we get, besides the emnity of the Arab world?
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/sto…..amp;page=1
BigMitch @ 56
i agree with you… but the fact that it’s been unresolved, and even exacerbated allows those regimes to keep calling attention to it, the bright shiny object if you will (except it IS real)
and now we have a real shitstorm in Iraq that’ll affect every player in the region for years to come.
sorry, demi, they got a wee bit rambunctious there. had to stop some folk from wanting to short sheet others… i believe it was a plot to distract me so they could turn the stereo up behind my back.
Suzanne @ 77
Perhaps they were just on a sugar high that night? Now why might that be ..
wigwam @ 72
Maybe, by describing it as logic, you’re attempting to see logic in it. It’s not logic–it’s propaganda (some of it intended to convince Bush himself of his rectitude, but, still…).
Everything that can be used to muddy the waters and delay action now brings Bush a bit closer to leaving the problem to someone else. That way–no matter what happens–he can take credit or deny blame, as the case may be.
It’s not logical, but it is pathological.
wigwam @ 72
your own analogy seemed excellent to me, if a bit too graphic for the family hour, which this sure as hell ain’t in CDT.
I ask them,
“How much more are you going to spend arming and training terrorists?”
and
“Are we expected to protect Iraqis from Iraqis at the cost of u.s. troops lives?”
tex, i wasn’t going to mention it but since you brought it up, there were a lot of sugary treats that night…
do-si-do @ 59
And then there were those ancestors of mine that were already here when the Mayflower sidled to shore, and because they didn’t have a strict immigration policy, got shoved all over the freakin’ continent. Dang little white people….like the camel’s nose under the tent flap.
TexB @ 78
Oh, you!
(dad’s service was yesterday and I have out of town guests, too! Ask me how much time I’ve spent in the kitchen.)
TexB @ 78
lol, Tex. I wonder why!
Suzanne @ 81
Unlike tonight, which was primarily a salty-greasy fest from what i saw.
It makes me sick that folks in this country literally do not give a rats ass who is dying or how many are dying simply because it isn’t their child, family member, or friend who’s skin is in the game. I have far surpassed anger long ago. I can’t imagine having to deal with the tragedies of this war first hand.
been worried about ya, demi, and was sending comforting thoughts your way.
tex, ya did turn over your snack duties to a teen…
For those who missed it, this evening’s snack was specially designed to attract teenagers to the lake.
Good to see you Demi.
I agree.
::sigh::
And now, it’s very likely that a family member is headed over, as we speak.
I could cry.
TexB @ 89
Forget the kids, I’m having seconds.
TeddySanFran @ 15
I’m in. Keep us posted. I think you still have the e-mail?
TexB @ 89
I would be too suspect luring young people with candy to our lake.
glad y’all can handle the benign recruitment.
BigMitch @ 56
In what sense is Israel an “important” and/or “reliable” ally of the United States? When did Israel ever serve the strategic interests of the U.S.? So far as I can tell, the strategic assistance has all gone the other way.
Suz..
It’s all good. The service was all that any daughter could want – after I spoke for us daughters, my sis and I sang King of the Road, his fav.. been really busy, though…and I have a call-back interview on Thursday for the job with the Non Profit place.
{{{{DreamingCrow}}}}
Hope he/she is safe.
yellowdog jim @ 94
At least it isn’t onion rings and carrots, I seem to recall that discussion… ;-)
Liss/DreamingCrow @ 91
Ah, go ahead and cry.
Me too….it’s not fun as the circus.
CTuttle @ 98
I will never do that again. I promise.
TexB @ 90
About the greasy part tonight, maybe it’s my fault…I fried up some chicken earlier. :)
wigwam and mitch, can we not turn this into an israel discussion which will likely turn into a shouting match with angry words – as all such discussions tend to do lately.
to be honest, i’m pretty beat up emotionally from the maryam threads – as are the other mods.
Suzanne @ 102
am making tea, would you care for one?
The most reliable and strategic ally of the US is Britain, followed closely by Japan. No one else comes close.
Israel is not a useful ally in geopolitical terms and their military mostly cannot be used. This was not the case in the Cold War, when they had some strategic usefulness in the case of an all out Soviet conventional attack.
yes, please, demi and thank you
Good evening, folks.
SteveAudio @ 106
Hey steveaudio. How are you?
hey steve audio.. hows that new grandbaby? as cute as her picture?
sporkovat @ 75
I really don’t understand the point of this. A woman from far away observed what she thought were men smiling, and they deny that they were smiling. BFD. It turns out that there are many suspicious circumstances, but none of it suggests either that the Israelis were complicit or even pre-warned that 9-11 would occur. Assuming something other than a completely innocent explanation, the most reasonable one is that they were spying on pro-Palestinian groups in the U.S. that support terror. So, what is your point?
SteveAudio @ 106
Welcome. We’re just a peaceable, humble blog. Where you been?
yellowdog jim @ 80
Thanks, Jim.
I will object to one thing. We aren’t “protecting Iraqis from Iraqis.” In fact, we’re training and equipping Iraqis to do a more effective job of killing each other. What else can be meant by “enhanced military effectiveness“?
Ian Welsh @ 104
Ah, Ian, you belittle Canada and the Commonwealth Nations(Aust., NZ, etc)!!!
wigwam @ 95
Most of it, yes, and there’s passable evidence that much of Israel’s strategic practices have been to involve the U.S. in very provincial Israeli concerns over the years.
But, the strategic interests of the U.S. are not exclusively military–as recent wars have made abundantly clear. The Israelis have supplied intelligence when it suits a common interest. Do they supply it shaded to their own interests and needs? Certainly. But, they have done so.
What utterly changed the U.S. relationship with Israel was the news, in 1959, that the CIA had found evidence that the British and the French had been helping the Israelis with nuclear weapons. From then on, the general neutrality disappeared. Part of that stemmed from a belief that keeping close tabs on Israel might keep their weapons program small (the U.S. had a vested interest in preventing Israel from selling or giving that information to its allies and business partners). The other part of it, more cynical, was that a nuclear Israel could be used as the U.S. bulldog in the Arabian Peninsula and the eastern Mediterranean. That was the thinking, anyway, fifty years ago.
newtonusr @ 110
Hey, everyone, thanks!
Been vacationing in Wisconsin, just got back late Sat. nite.
Some pics up at my place, more to come from video I took.
And, Suz, sorry, no…she’s much cuter than her pic!
I come bearing peace.
Cujo359 @ 97
Thanks, Cujo. You and me both. I won’t know what’s up for awhile, though. I just hope she stays okay and that this doesn’t break her like it’s done so many.
When I think of how concerned I am for just one person in danger, my mind boggles at having to deal with the pain of Irak on a daily basis.
TexB @ 115
thank you, tex, the perfect snack for a hard as hell night (that followed another hard as hell night)
peace cookies and tea – poifect
demi, i hope i didn’t cause you to have to go back into your kitchen
steve, that is like totally unfair – vacation and new grandbaby (sigh)
TexB @ 115
Those are Kewl!!! 8-)
Suzanne, your wish is my command. I wrote #109 before I read your request.
demi @ 103
Suzanne @ 102
Oops! Of course.
demi @ 99
No, it’s definitely not.
CTuttle @ 112
Hard to think of a good metric. The UK and Japan have more powerful militaries, and so are potentially more useful in a war, but in most respects I think the other Commonwealth nations and Western Europe have also been reliable, as has South Korea.
Plus, Canada has blessed us with hockey and curling. Where would our culture be without them?
CTuttle @ 98
ha ha.
thank you mitch and wigwam :)
very much
Back from the kitchen.
Tea is good.
But, I always end up pickin’ up and throwin’ out and wipin’
Still, tea is good.
No circus here, but perseverance anyway.
Teddy, I’d love to try to figure out a way to see DiFi in Aug. if I could get the time off. Maybe Newspaperbrat and you and I can go see her. There are folks in Sacramento, too.
Seriously.
Great news, GSD, about the nurses.
Sorry, but I have to go nite-nite now.
Maggie @ 126
Good night
btw, Suzanne, do you remember the blankies comments? the friend of mine who makes them for babies in the hospital lost her husband, like, 12 hours before my dad passed. eeirey.
I told her about your blankies and stuffed animals story.
Cujo359 @ 122
Canada has a larger military than Japan, and the Japanese are barred from participating in foreign incursions by their Constitution, other than medical missions! Canadian forces are in Afghanistan and have been there for quite some time!
i remember the blankie comments, demi – wow, that was a double hit for you, your dad and your friends husband. again, sorry you had to go back into the kitchen for my tea – i wasn’t thinking.
montag @ 113
Thanks. This prompts two items that have been conspicuously absent from all coverage of middle east affairs.
First: “What, if any, was Mossad’s input to the intelligence that led to the invasion of Iraq?” It would of course be natural for the U.S. to consult a local ally whose intelligence service is reputed to be the best in the Middle East, if not the world. But I’ve never seen mention of Mossad consultation. Did they tell us that Saddam had WMDs or not? Did they themselves believe he had such?
Second: Did the U.S. honestly think that after nuclear weapons were introduced into the Mid East the very well-funded other side would not ever be capable of obtaining their own? (That assumption would, of course, be strategically naive.)
Actually, I attended 3 services this week. It was a triple. Ouch.
But, I also went ahead and followed thru with some previously reserved camping plans this week. All the dad plans were set. So, my two oldest (daughter in from the East Coast) joined us. It was peaceful and cathartic.
And, I will make you some tea any time. :)
so your trip up to my neck of the woods, so to speak, is still on demi?
wigwam @ 111
objection sustained.
“protecting” is our euphemism for “training and arming”, which naturally leads to “murdering and slaughtering”.
then we have the complexities of “Iraqis” as opposed to “Sunnis”, “Shias” and Kurds”.
(and Bah’ais and Zoroastrians, turks, greeks arabs)
anyway, “protecting” means killing both sunnis and shias.
and
how do chenyBu$hco war supporters see this as anything different than a shooting gallery where our troops are the clay pigeons and we are reduced to using armor, artillery and airpower against substantially civilian targets?
cheers
Time for me to call it a night.
Good night friends.
g’nite tex… i’m think i will be taking off soon myself… pain free sleep wishes
TexB @ 135
Sleep well, Ma’am!!!
Suzanne @ 133
Absolute, August 24 and 25th.
I adore camping. If we had been at the house…oh, so many distractions. We sat around the camp fire and sang and joked and laughed. In the morning I saw many bunnies.
peace out y’all
see ya on fazebook
good night TexB and Suzanne.
let the world turn without you tonight.
Suzanne @ 136
I’m gonna bid another fond adieu, myself! Bon Nuit, Ma Cheri! Aloha Oe, Ya’ll!!!
I think it’s probably time for me to hit the sack, as well. I have lots of work and a fun trip with my son ahead of me tomorrow.
Night, TB, and pending g’nite, Suzanne
Liss/DreamingCrow @ 142
Good Night and rock on your trip~
Maggie @ 126
Count me in – if punaise is back from France he may want to join our fdl brigade’s meeting with Senator DiFi.
i’m still here.. for a wee bit, stevea.
Suzanne @ 146
Ahh, cool
SteveAudio @ 147
I’m still on WI time, pretty unusual for me, actually tired this time of night.
wigwam @ 131
On the first, because there’s been virtually no reporting, I don’t know. It’s possible, but, there is one thing–Scott Ritter’s remarks that he got significant help from the Israelis (which he considered to be reliable) in finding places of interest during UNSCOM’s tenure in Iraq. At that time, of course, it would have been in Israel’s interest to cooperate in removing those weapons. The better question might be: did they know the WMDs were gone, and didn’t say anything to the Bushies?
On the second, I presume you mean the very well-funded other side to be Saudi Arabia. Remember, at the time, U.S. and British oil firms had arrangements with the Saudis that were a great deal like those now being proposed for Iraq (Saudi Arabia did not nationalize its oil system until the mid-`70s). The Saudis and the U.S. were in a symbiotic relationship with each other. The real problem, then, in both U.S. and Israeli eyes was not Saudi Arabia, but, rather, Egypt. Nasser had become just a bit too cozy with the Soviets for U.S. liking, and that contributed to the increasing favoritism during the `60s and `70s.
Unfortunately, it’s been a situation of both countries using each other for both mutual and individual aims–without a treaty framework to provide limits and checks.
SteveAudio @ 148
what exactly is WI time, steve, is it a slowed down version of CA time?
Suzanne @ 151
No, just 2 hours ahead (CDT). Thus, in my mind, it’s 2:12 AM right now.
CTuttle @ 129
Once again, I’m wondering what metric to use. In 2005, Japan spent roughly four times as much as Canada on defense ($44.7B vs. $9.7B) (source)
It appears that Japan has several times as many ships in its navy (I’m comparing Wikipedia entries here – always a hazardous undertaking). Japan has 45 destroyers, and Canada 4. I’d say Japan wins there, too.
Japan has ten divisions and at least as many separate brigades, if I’m reading this right, and Canada has about ten separate brigades (regiments). Once again, it looks to me like Japan’s is considerably larger.
How is Canada’s military larger?
Ok, (yawn) thanks, stevea. my brain connections are obviously misfiring for me to not figure that out (duh)
g’nite all.. see ya back here tomorrow night, same bat time, same bat channel
yellowdog jim @ 134
I have a colleague who was in the Lebanese military and a few months before the invasion he visited Lebanon and talked with a family friend, a Lebanese Colonel or General, who told him that if the U.S. invades Iraq it will be a disaster for them. He asked why. The General/Colonel replied “because they don’t understand modern urban guerilla warfare.”
And, in fact, it has been snipers, IEDs, and now EFPs that have wreaked havoc with our troops. Not the stuff that we prepared for.
K, I’m officially toast.
G’nite, all.
Likewise. My brain definitely is brown on both sides by now. Goodnite, all.
BigMitch…
you know, I never knew the acronym “BFD” before, but now, thanks to your context, I do.
cool.
we can take up this discussion some other time…the mods are giving signs of exhaustion.
From the old Gray Lady -
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/2007/23/opinion/23
BigMitch @ 56
Big Mitch…the initial expulsions of these people you refuse to accede to be “occupied” occurred by Israel. Palestinians weren’t “kicked out” of Lebanon…the PLO was expelled at the insistence of an invading Israeli army. The leadership was transported to Tunisia by the US Navy.
And Saddam, to my knowledge, never paid “suicide bombers”…he donated money to their families AFTER the Israeli government came and bulldozed the homes and businesses of the families of these bombers in acts of collective punishment.
I don’t really understand how you can honestly speak of a people “being deprived of dignity and freedom” when these people have been denied the opportunity to participate in any meaningful self-government areas occupied by Israel for some 35 years (speaking of the West Bank alone).
I’ve done as much work as I can do tonight without data that I don’t have and can’t get until the morning, so I’m back.
Suzanne, what kind of ice cream tonight?
Suzanne – if you’re still here would you help me clean up my chaos at 151 – head bowed with red face.
burnspbesq @ 161
Suzanne has retired for the evening.
…but pistachio will do nicely.
This is a joke, but I’m not laughing.
newspaperbrat @ 162
Which article npb?
“LM decloaking off the port bow, powering up weapons.
Looks like we’re screwed, Captain.”
“Nonsense, Mr. Data. Fire pistachios.”
montag @ 113
Israel has spied on the US, has passed on classified information to the enemies of the US, and has attacked a US naval vessel. There is no particular evidence that Israel is much of an ally for the US, though the US is a good ally for them. The use of Israeli troops to attack any major oil producing nation in the Middle East would be a disaster.
No particular geopolitical interests are furthered by being allied with Israel and quite a few interests are damaged.
The US is mostly an ally of Israel because the Israeli lobby is ferociously strong as best I can determine. Watching the Israeli tail wage the American dog is of sick amusement to most of the rest of the world. (most recently when almost the entire House condemned Hezbollah and refused to even put in language asking /both/ sides to try and avoid civilian casualties.)
As for Israel itself, Carter was right – it’s an apartheid state. When you occupy another people for 30 years it does something to you, and that something isn’t anything good. Occupation always corrupts those doing the occupation.
None of which “excuses” the Palestinians, but then they’re almost no one’s allies, just another of those people in the world with someone’s boot at their throat. You may rest entirely assured that many Palestinians hate Americans and Israelis just as much as Maryam does.
TLMod – would you kindly clean up or remove my 151 – fear I messed up da tubes with my inept attempt to do a linky that spilled outside the margins. If I only had a brain – hope burns eternal – found a Mac class for adults that starts in Sept.
demi @ 132
I don’t think I could handle three services in one week. I’m just not a mourning person.
It’s good to hear that you had close family there.
Canada refused to go along with Iraq. Both Japan and Britain did go along. Britain in particular generally goes along with /anything/ the US wants, though that may change in the future thanks to how well the chimp rewarded them.
Japan is very loyal, is a major bulwark against China and is a major basing area for US assets. They are firmly under the US umbrella and like it there and don’t really want to leave. Without Japan the Pacific would probably not be a US protectorate any more.
That’s my take anyway.
Canada’s an important ally. But because of physical proximity our loyalty can almost be taken for granted. There is no way the US would tolerate a truly hostile Canada on its border. Canadian politicians understand this in their bones.
montag @ 149
I got the impression that there was a lot of Israeli input to Doug Feith’s Special Projects operation partly from the following from Karen Kwiatowski http://www.amconmag.com/2004_01_19/article1.html
Continuing to your second point:
I wasn’t only concerned with the Saudi’s. The Libyans, Egyptians, Iranians, Pakistanis, and non-governmental organization in Indonesia. Obtaining nuclear weapons won’t remain a difficult problem forever. And, people we are pissing off (rightly or wrongly) by supporting Israel will obtain them. That is impossible to prevent in the long run unless some accomodation is reached.
just a driveby on my way to bed… npb, i see the lurking mod is fixing your link
burns, you offering ice cream to the lurking mod? gee, he’s a nice guy and all but i thought the ice cream was for me
Ian Welsh – last warning for this warm and steamy evening-
I refer you to Suzanne here…
“can we not turn this into an israel discussion which will likely turn into a shouting match with angry words – as all such discussions tend to do lately.
to be honest, i’m pretty beat up emotionally from the maryam threads – as are the other mods.”
Knock it off please.
newspaperbrat @ 168
TLM – comment 159 not 151. Brat blushing madly.
npb – hard refresh and you’re there.
Sweet dreams Suzanne and all.
burnspbesq @ 164
“Communal struggle for power?”
I remember back during the Vietnam Era, some reporter asked why things were going badly and this Pentagon flack said and I quote.
You must understand that we’re faced with a series of overlapping inter perimeters…
New world order. Same old shit.
((((((((((The Lurking Mod ! ))))))))))
BigMitch@109
Why would THAT be the other most reasonable explanation? Are you suggesting that the Israelis knew that 9/11 was going to occur? Are you suggesting that Palestinian groups were behind the 9/11 attacks?
That’s almost as nutty, IMO, as Cheney suggesting that there was evidence that Saddam “did it”. The fact is, there is NO link at all between the Palestinian movement and 9/11…other than the fact that, YES, OBL and al Qaida consider the plight of the Palestinians (just as the do the occupation of Iraq) as part of their agenda.
But does that mean we have to keep continuing with wrongheaded policies that fail to resolve these issues simply in order to prevent OBL (or others) from being able to declare “victory”. In fact, when the peoples involved are able to restore some normalcy to their lives, have the security of their land, and their identity…then the extremists actually lose.
Ironically, Israel has yet one more shot at doing the right thing…by supporting the PLO’s mainstream by giving up the occupied territories, pulling out the settlements, and restoring parts of Jerusalem to either international or Palestinian control. This would empower Abbas over Hamas, and strip a good amount of the issues that remain. They could also offer the “right of return” to those actually born in the pre-1949 borders of Israel (which would largely be those over 60 years of age) and offer personal compensation for lands taken (which would used to develop the West Bank).
{{{{Maryam and Siun}}}}
ET – how is the lovely Alaskan summer sun treating you?
I try to lurk from time to time, but little internet time here in NZ this round. However, I always appreciate your reasoned tone and insights. Thanks
wigwam @ 171
NZ Expat @ 181
NZXP,
I was thinking of another ex-NZXP today when writing about political corruption in Alaska. He left in 1975 or or so to go to NZ, then came back in the late 80s. He left when the Dems here sold out to the oilies controlled by Henry Jackson and others, to get the pipeline built.
Nice day today. Getting ready to leave town by making sure my kids won’t kill each other while we’re gone. I hope that’ll be all right.
The good news is that my bodyguard, who almost threw a book at the TV when he came in on the last ten minutes of the CNN debate, has agreed to watch me blog here about a month from now. He’s a savant from a place Dems need to get more familiar with if they’re going to take advantage of the fading paradigms of the new right and the neo-cons.
cinnamonape @ 160
Not my understanding. I thought that Saddam had a standing offer to families of suicide bombers. Which, in the case of people without hope for the future can be quite an inducement. I am sorry to tell you this, but Saddam did support international terrorism. I don’t think this justified the invasion, but all the same…
You are right. My concern is misplaced.
The word “occupied” has legal significance. For example, an occupying power has a duty to provide schooling for children in occupied territories. Do you want Israel to take charge of Palestinian education? I didn’t think so.
Big Mitch and others … please stop. The mods have asked that the Israel Palestine discussion be dropped for tonight and have been quite clear with several people. I hope you will show them some respect given how hard they work for all of us – as volunteers no less.
That’s simple good manners.
BTW gang, thanks for helping Big Mitch learn more about some important issues. He’s a genuine liberal who is contributing a lot here. I’ve met him, and feel a bit uncomfortable about the cognitive dissonance his strong presence has brought, because we’re fellow Alaskans, so I’m trying to feel like “I got your back, Big Mitch.” And – I really, really like him. Mitch may be the first commenter here to bring organizations backed on their front page by the likes of Gary Bauer to buttress his arguments, but I doubt he knew that when he did.
The most important thing I brought out of Siun’s Sunday post this week was a feeling of shame that Americans totally – totally – underestimate how many dark-skinned people’s deaths we are totally accountable for – after Nagasaki. “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee” doesn’t even scratch the surface of our totally institutionalized racism.
cinnamonape @ 179
Why would THAT be the other most reasonable explanation? Are you suggesting that the Israelis knew that 9/11 was going to occur? Are you suggesting that Palestinian groups were behind the 9/11 attacks?No! But I do assert that there are pro-Palestinian groups in American that support terror in Israel, and if anything, these guys were spying on them.
That’s almost as nutty, IMO, as Cheney suggesting that there was evidence that Saddam “did it”. The fact is, there is NO link at all between the Palestinian movement and 9/11…
I agree
other than the fact that, YES, OBL and al Qaida consider the plight of the Palestinians (just as the do the occupation of Iraq) as part of their agenda.OBL was remarkably indifferent to the Palestinians, until 9/11 engendered great disapproval in the Arab world. Remember, there were pro-American demonstrations in Iran after 9-11, though there were celebrations in Gaza.
But does that mean we have to keep continuing with wrongheaded policies that fail to resolve these issues simply in order to prevent OBL (or others) from being able to declare “victory”. In fact, when the peoples involved are able to restore some normalcy to their lives, have the security of their land, and their identity…then the extremists actually lose.Agreed
Ironically, Israel has yet one more shot at doing the right thing…by supporting the PLO’s mainstream by giving up the occupied territories, pulling out the settlements, and restoring parts of Jerusalem to either international or Palestinian control. This would empower Abbas over Hamas, and strip a good amount of the issues that remain. They could also offer the “right of return” to those actually born in the pre-1949 borders of Israel (which would largely be those over 60 years of age) and offer personal compensation for lands taken (which would used to develop the West Bank).
Or the Israelis could just shoot their own brains out. I am sure that would bring peace to the area, too. Israel is trying to empower Abbas over Hamas. But can Abbas offer the Israelis something in return? You know, like peace.
Very few Jews want to control the entire Gaza and West Bank. But any concessions on their part have to be met with concessions by the other side. The few Jews who do want to control all of the land from the Jordon to the Med, are regarded as crazies, and will be removed by Israeli force if it will accomplish peace.
Has Abbas publicly acknowledged Israel’s right to exist? That might be a good first step, doncha think?
Last post written before #184
How ’bout them Mets?
Thank you.
Good night.
BigMitch @ 183
Not my understanding. I thought that Saddam had a standing offer to families of suicide bombers. Which, in the case of people without hope for the future can be quite an inducement. I am sorry to tell you this, but Saddam did support international terrorism. I don’t think this justified the invasion, but all the same…
You are right. My concern is misplaced.
The word “occupied” has legal significance. For example, an occupying power has a duty to provide schooling for children in occupied territories. Do you want Israel to take charge of Palestinian education? I didn’t think so.
Oh, I DO think so…if you are actually talking about giving basic human rights, like the right to participate as equals politically in the governmental system.
The Israeli government also have the duty, after 40 years to allow those “occupied” to VOTE in the elections of those that have ceded them. Of course the Israelis don’t like the consequences of THAT…as it would mean that the Palestinians would have no small impact on how the Israelis govern them (including the educational system).
Consider that the Palestinians would compose far more of a voting bloc than either Labor or Likud!
When the US occupied Spanish-territories like California and elsewhere over 150 years ago the indigenous Spanish citizens became citizens of the US with voting rights, Constitutional rights, etc. almost immediately. Jordan grants equal voting status as its own Trans-Jordan to the expelled Palestinians in their territory.
I have been reading here and the previous thread. Some issues I think need to be addressed. But it is midmornig here and I have been reading and thinking for several hours.
With moderators permission. I would like to to write addressing some of the points raised and post them to both threads.
I am not sure of the etiquette here. Some information would be appreciated.
BigMitch @ 186
What does “Israel’s right to exist” mean to you? Does it mean a certain religion’s right to be dominant on the patch of land now called “Israel”? Does it necessarily mean an immigration policy that is assymetric wrt ethnicity and/or religious affiliation?
Those rhetorical questions are intended to imply that those who don’t “publicly acknowledge Israel’s right to exist” might have some legitimate reasons for withholding that acknowledgement.
dubhaltach – as you can tell from this and past threads, visiters here are gaining new, or at least wider, perspectives about the Irak occupation. Please be informative, but launching into pups who are only now struggling to comprehend what has happened there is discouraged.
Your constructive comments are always welcome. Always.
MODERATOR: Please ignore this post since you have asked all to stop discussion on this topic
BigMitch @ 186Has Abbas publicly acknowledged Israel’s right to exist? That might be a good first step, doncha think?
Yes, he has, Big Mitch. And can you give me the article with the evidence that Saddam gave money…in advance…to families of suicide-bombers? The money was given after the Israelis destroyed their homes/businesses. Or are you asserting that Saddam knew who these bombers were going to be…before they acted…facts even their families didn’t know.
BTW The Saudi and other Muslim Governments and peoples also gave aid to these homeless families. If the Israelis wanted it to stop they could have stopped using collective punishment.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..n-leftrail
It’s Hamas that refuses to recognize Israel. Remember though that the PLO as a whole did agree to negotiations based on a “two-state” solution. Israel and Palestine…GET IT?
And when it comes to basic human and civil rights of occupied peoples…do you really think that these should be held up as negotiating elements for negotiation?
What if Bush said that “maybe we’ll trade allowing you to vote in the election in exchange for not bringing impeachment or criminal charges against anyone in my Adminstration”?
[I’m sorry, to the moderator, that the Late Night topic has been side-tracked. I WILL say that I thought Maryam’s comments received lots of discussion in the last post…as well as this one. And I thought that Late Night and Late, Late Night were traditionally such that OT comments were allowed. At least it was a discourse on ME issues, and relates, in some manner to Maryam’s helplessness…multiply that by 8 and you’ll arrive at the number of years that the West Bank has been under Israeli occupation.
When I saw BigMitch’s statements I felt I had to respond to what I feel is widely-promulgated, erroneous information. At least it wasn’t the current NY Yankees score.]
Ok I will be back.
dubhaltach @ 195
Praise G*d. May this planet find peace before we fry ourselves slowly, so very slowly.
cinnamonape @ 194
I’d really like it to be possible to have a civil discussion of this very important issue that doesn’t degenerate into charges of genocide and antisemitism. Unfortunately most people raised in the U.S. do not know that there is a legitimate other side to the issue. Our press has been astonishingly unbalanced in the way they portray these matters. (Strangely, the press was fairest during Desert Storm.)
Morning ET.
FireDogLake: where we never, ever stop looking for answers. Until we do.
Eyes and minds, opened and raw, we’re tugging at the threads that keep our common goals stitched together. It is tough sledding now, but we will be better for it.
Hmmm, I’m not sure I want to read this thread.
raven @ 199
Been some couple of days. How are you raven?
wigwam @ 198
I’d really like it to be possible to have a civil discussion of this very important issue that doesn’t degenerate into charges of genocide and antisemitism. Unfortunately most people raised in the U.S. do not know that there is a legitimate other side to the issue. Our press has been astonishingly unbalanced in the way they portray these matters. (Strangely, the press was fairest during Desert Storm.)
I tried VERY hard to treat BigMitch with respect…well except for the tweak about the Yankees. I apologize if I personalized anything I said.
newtonusr @ 200
OK, my father-in-law died last Thursday so it was a tough week. He lived in small town Virginia and the outpouring of support was amazing.
OT (is there an ‘off topic’ on the Late Night Thread?)
I don’t usually comment at this time of night (in MN) but I just read an article at BuzzFlash about what this Congress has done and about impeachment. I thought it made some good points and wanted to point it out.
BuzzFlash/Pundits/Hill
I’m so sorry about this. A good thought to you and yours.
We’ve had some eye-opening posts and comments beginning yesterday afternoon, including a stunning post and thread from siun. It is not to be missed, but it is quite raw here. Might be a great idea to sit this one out, at least for now.
Again, condolences raven.
Returning to the topic:
Maryam said: “Stop telling lies to yourself American[s]. We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values”
I really struggled with her sentiments. She’s correct,of course, in that anyone who comes FROM a culture reflects that culture.
Whether that is an accurate reflection of the VALUES or is a modal set of values is something else. It’s essentially like attributing to those that attacked the WTC as being reflective of Islamic values. Yes, some folks (perhaps miseducated in some particular manner, or responding to traumas they have personally experienced, or told what makes them heroic) may react in some way…but is that everyone?
I hate to object to this emotion…as it is irrational.
I wonder if Maryam will feel the same about Iraqi (or Shiite; or Sunni) culture when members of her family are killed or injured by Shiite/Sunni militias? Will those people reflect the values of Shiism, Sunnism, being Iraqi, or Islam? They WILL justify their attacks on protecting their culture and society, too.
I think that I probably stand in the minority on this blog, but her “voice” (if authentic…is there anyone to confirm this) is actually exactly that which those who want to promulgate fear against the Iraqi people. After all, if the average Iraqi now feels THAT way about Americans then they certainly are not going to be unwilling to retaliate. And not merely against the occupying forces…but against the “Society” – that includes all of us. This justifies the “fight ‘em there, rather than here” philosophy…and continued occupation, at least until “something” can be salvaged.
If Maryam’s expression is authentic and typical, then (as we all knew) Bush has actually generated a spawning ground for future terrorist attacks against the United States…at a level far above that I had feared.
And here is what I fear the most, after listening to Maryams’ prejudicial abhorrence of Americans…It’s not “9/11 changed everything”…it’s actually “The occupation of Iraq changed everything.”
cinnamonape @ 205
I only had time to read a bit of that earlier thread but I’m having trouble buying this one
cinnamonape @ 205
Fighting them there does little to prevent them from coming here, except that it relieves them of the need to come here to kill Americans. Think of our troops as human sacrifices to the hate we’ve engendered. “Here, kill these guys, but don’t come over here and kill the rest of us. We’ll feed you Americans to kill however long is necessary.”
FWIW, Maryam is saying exactly what I would say (less eloquently) if foreign troops were to occupy the U.S. and do and say the things that we all know our troops have done and said. I suspect that the average Iraqi is better informed than the average American regarding what is going on there.
Good morning, pups. The NYT has Bobo writing about the “neopopulist story line” about rising income inequality, and calls it “simple minded.” Well, if anyone knows simple minded it’s Bobo. Judith Warner writes about setting priorities for an American work/family policy.
http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
The coffee and tea are ready, and there are corn muffins just out of the oven. Have a good day.
Suzanne @ 19
That depends on what you’re “sniping” about.
Or if people are really “sniping” at all.
I think people getting too close to it, as in needing to control dissent, is exactly why it is exhausting. Step back and let it happen. It necessarily will get MESSY before it gets better. But it serves absolutely no purpose to squelch messy discourse. in fact, it’s counterproductive. hint: if you’re too tired to enter the fray, don’t.
it’s someone else’s turn.
imho, we fight over what constitutes “acceptable levels” of certain dynamics that constrain our founding principles: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
If I see the same dynamic we’re fighting “over there” show up “over here” you can be damn sure I’m going to say something about it.
imho, it’s the one of the most powerful things I can do.
Good Morning, Firepups {waves hello to Marion in Savannah}
Cool and clear in central Jersey this morning, following a day of heavy rain. Sorry I couldn’t send any of the rain south, where it’s needed.
Mr. NJP is considering a f/t job with a peace organization. He’s been volunteering with them for a while. But he’s got some real concerns about the effectiveness of the peace movement in general. Demonstrations, like the big peace march in DC back in January, make the marchers feel good. But it’s meeting with your congresscritters and writing letters [to elected officials and to the media] that may have more of an impact.
Oooh. Corn muffins! Thanks, Marion. I’ve made a big pot of decaf French roast for those who prefer their stimulation from sources other than coffee.
Work for peace, every day.
Hi, NJP. Is it okay if I take a cup of your decaf French roast for later? I’ve got to have my tea to get my heart started in the morning, but caffeine too late in the day makes me nuts.
Marion -
Your kind heart is in full-service 24/7……have never seen any evidence of need of a start-up for same. *g* & [hugs for a good day]
Thanks for the muffin; getting the house cleaned for company coming today so may be the only food I get before ETA. Out for a bit to check the crab pots; catch up with you guys later.
wigwam @ 209
That’s why I said I was likely in a minority here. I don’t think I would say that ALL those who are citizens of the occupying power are responsible and that it is “in your nature” and part of your values.
Maybe if we were invaded by a foreign power I’d be one of those hauled out and shot as a collaborator for not stereotyping everyone from the invaders nation.
I don’t believe that it was in the German “nature” or “values” to kill the Jews, or the Turks “nature” to kill the Armenians. At the same time there were cultural and historical events that ALLOWED those things to occur. And not everyone was involved.
If all can be held equally responsible then what the hell are we doing considering impeaching Bush and Cheney…or calling them for “war crimes”. According to Maryam they are just doing OUR bidding…expressing our VALUES.
I’m not disputing her on the ground knowledge OVER THERE…but, likewise, she’s not over HERE. I doubt that she’s ever been to the US. She’s a nurse, and as such going to see the carnage on a mania-producing daily scale. That may not make her even an “average Iraqi”…she’s seen the worst, day after day.
I understand the frustration and anger…and realize that these are the real sentiments of many Iraqis…but she’s WRONG, WRONG, WRONG in her ideas. And they are polarizing, however “authentic”. Generalizing her hatred, even to all US soldiers, much less all Americans, is likely only to involve her in serious difficulties. And in that context, with US military guys who are stressed, ill-trained and hyped up by propaganda…if she makes such a statement to the wrong Marine she’s likely to end up, at best, jailed…and, I don’t want to imagine what would happen in a worst case scenario. Would a President Giuliani, Thompson or even most Democratic contenders feel any qualms about using nuclear weapons on a failed state that actually was generating hundreds of more terrorists?
I hope, and pray, that Maryam is an anomaly…or that her position would be different upon reflection (as many internet statements are).
Gandhi USED the VALUES of the British Nation to embarass and shame them into decolonizing.
And to a large extent the Vietnamese appealed to the HUMAN VALUES of Americans (e.g. My Lai) to stop the war in Viet Nam (along with a heck of an insurgency).
Good morning! Let’s kick some Republican butt today.
egregious @ 216
Hey EG, my father in law finally lost his battle.
njprogressive @ 211
got my concerns too… but i’ve thought for awhile that both mass demonstrations and letters/meetings were necessary. we don’t have to choose between the two. and i think that mass demonstrations encourage our congresscritters take the letters and meetings more seriously. two mutually reinforcing actions. i’m glad people are doing both – even if not everyone does both, both are getting done.
more of both, please!
Oh Raven……
I’m so sorry.
(((((((Raven)))))))
If you wanna talk about it, we’re right here.
Love coming your way.
And to a large extent the Vietnamese appealed to the HUMAN VALUES of Americans (e.g. My Lai) to stop the war in Viet Nam (along with a heck of an insurgency).
And like the situation in Iraq their were plenty of savage Vietnamese to go around but it was racist if someone said “Orientals don’t value human life the way we do”.
We may have made things worse in Iraq but it’s silly to pretend they were not awful prior to our invasion.
egregious @ 219
Thanks, his cardiologist spoke at his funeral and said he learned more from him in sickness than he did from most people in health. I think that he had the surgery more for his kids than for himself. He lived with incredible grace and he died that way as well.
Raven,
He sounds like an amazing person. It’s when things are rough that you get the true measure of a person’s character. He sounds like the real thing.
A most unusual sentiment expressed by the cardiologist.
Blessings on you and your family.
egregious @ 222
Thx so much. I have appreciated you support, as well as that of many other Lakers, through this challenge.
cinnamonape @ 214
i think this is not at all what gandhi did… at least from my listening to this course.
Caring thoughts to you and your family, Raven.
(((((((raven)))))))
(((Raven))))
you have my condolences.
Heads up, with thanks to selise for her excellent list of hearings:
Tuesday, Jul. 24, 2007 Note: will be on cspan3
9:30 am – Senate Judiciary
To continue oversight hearings to examine the Department of Justice.
Witness: The Honorable Alberto Gonzales, Attorney General of the United States
Good morning, pups. Hugs to Raven.
Can anybody explain how and why it is that Karl Rove is paid by taxpayers rather than republicans? I have never understood this. Is this an office that has been held in previous administrations?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
A true giant of journalism, David Halberstam. His last article, The History Boys, about the abysmal failure of the sleazy Bush Administratoin in August Vanity Fair. Good homework before today’s hearings.
The writing, the man, speak for themselves.
You need to read both the Editor’s comment about Halberstam and then his article.
Editor’s Letter link http://www.vanityfair.com/maga…..ydon200708
Article “The History Boys” link http://www.vanityfair.com/poli…..stam200708
Morning all, I haven’t commented since I read Siun’s column. It’s difficult to put guilt that I feel into action but we must. I’m delurking now to see why Loo Hoo is still up?
selise @ 223
xactly selise.
momentary snark enjoyment aside, eventually we will figure out that shaming & embarrassing others is a minimally effective motivator. (although it has brimming-homeopathic value for those whose lives are organized around it.)
building something together, with a requisite effort that necessarily contradicts perceived differences, now there’s a motivator.
Our collective understanding of Irak is so sophomoric it’s pathetic.
Even the blended Sunni/Shia nature of Maryam’s family would be an absolute shock
to the average “informed” US citizen.
Good morning all. You seem to be enjoying breakfast. I have been thinking about Maryam a lot.
Then Cindy Sheehan and people’s reaction to her. To me she is doing what I wish I could do. Kicking and screaming and fighting to stop the war. Im glad shes there.
I was listening to the radio in bed and heard that they are announcing staying in Iraq until 2009. Please no!
raven -
He lived with incredible grace and he died that way as well.
No one could ask for a more perfect eulogy. Loving thoughts to you and all your family.
While over at seliseList I started wondering who’s doing the heavy lifting at House Armed Services. Guess they’re hearing from some angry constituents. This week alone they are doing:
Alternatives for Iraq’s future, a series
Wed 10am edt
Hearings, implications of NIE re Al-Q
Wed 1pm edt
Testimony, habeas corpus for detainees
Thurs 9am edt
JPL @ 232
Konked out early last night and woke up super early!
Raven
My thoughts are with you too
TribeScribe @ 231
thank you TS, very well said.
One thing here is that the “good germans”had the camps in their towns and outside their villages,I don’t think that analogy is entirely accurate.
In America we have to dig,ask questions,dig some more,etc and etc to get anywhere near the truth.
Without the internet the ignorance and simple lack of information would be far worse than it is now.
Also,I don’t agree that our tax money is funding this war. Our taxes barely scrape the surface of paying interest on the money the Bush Administration borrowed with the ok from Congress. I didn’t have a word of say in that,did you? The rich aren’t paying hardly any taxes now,and the tax money from the middle class(ha!)is nowhere close to enough money to fund this madness.
The IRS will throw your ass in jail. We just went through a major audit because my doofus husband totally effed up our tax returns from ‘03,the threat of jail time was more VERY real,not to mention losing our home and every dime we had in savings.
Just caught the John Edwards “hair” ad on C-Span……….Dog, that’s a brillant piece of snark!
selise @ 239
Sounds like what we’re building here at fdl.
egregious @ 234 –
i was also surprised by the House Armed Services committee hearings this week. that was one reason i decided to stop trying to figure out which hearings would be interesting to firepups and just go ahead and list ‘em all.
i’m going to try to record an mp3 of of today’s abu SJC hearing, please (to all firepups) let me know if there is any hearing you’d like an audio recording of… and i will try to do it. i’ve got audios of some previous hearings posted (like comey’s testimony before the SJC) and will try to keep doing a few (as requested).
p.s. you can click on my name for the current week’s congressional hearings list.
from the Post article. More hearings
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
AOB, sorry to hear that. What a nightmare.
Loo Hoo. @ 245
Thanks LooHoo,it was a mess. So much so we even put into writing that my inlaws would take our son in the event the worst happened.
We’re not rich,but live well above poverty,even above “average”(which is around 45K per yr these days I think),and we basically ended up giving back all of this year’s refund,plus more that did come from savings. The IRS wasn’t very kind or nice about it,dragged it out for almost a year,and then charged us interest on the original amount to boot. Not to mention all the times they had me in tears. I have no doubt at ALL that they would have enjoyed taking our house and putting us in jail had we not had some means to pay them back.
Major (((hugs))))to Raven too,I am so sorry for your loss.
raven — so sorry to hear of your loss. Hugs, man…
I don’t know what else to do. I wish I could say good morning, but it’s not.
My entire life turned around when my stepson deployed in his last year of active duty to Iraq, at the beginning of the war. I became politically active, in ways I never thought I would; I was a protester inside a 4-month period at each of two visits by Bush and one by Cheney. I’ve talked face-to-face with my Senators about ending the war; I written emails, faxes, called them until their staffers sigh when they hear my name. I joined half a dozen political groups that opposed the war and this administration, have worked as much as 60 hours a week to get anti-war progressives elected to office in the last election cycle.
Short of becoming an anarchist, I don’t know what else to do. Short of becoming an armed insurgent on our own soil, what else can I do?
You see, I feel like I’ve been living in an occupied nation for most of my adult life. I see the racists who make nice to my face as long as they think I’m white. I had to work long and hard to counteract the effects of racism working on the small boy that became the soldier our family unwillingly sent to Iraq. I can’t recall a time in my adult life where being a liberal and progressive wasn’t something that was treated like a disease by a substantive number of people around me — even this week I’ve had someone treat me like I was sick for not being a so-called conservative like them.
And yet I am still a monster, as is my stepson, and will always be so in the eyes of Iraqis. You have no idea how much it pains me to hear that everything I’ve worked for over the last 5 years counts for naught, that it will never be enough, because far too many good Americans have done nothing at all about the real monsters that occupy this country.
selise @ 243
You are a gem. Thanks
Rayne. There is nothing more you could possibly have done. You are doing all that is humanly possible. Thank you. I have worked hard too, but you amaze me.
When we see, and the rest of the world sees, trials for these war criminals, I will be somewhat satisfied.
The scary thing is that Speaker Pelosi said we don’t know the half of it…
Oh Rayne,I know it’s not much,but here’s a (((hug)))from me.
I know how you feel when it comes to what to do. Anarchy sometimes seems like the only thing at all that would work. And what we’ve all done thusfar seems no more effective than screaming into an abyss.
I have no idea what the answers are,but it would help not to be demonized just for speaking out. I had to walk out of my son’s martial arts school yesterday after listening to a mom go on forever about her god and horrible liberals being first in line for hell. I just looked at her and said,”yeah,all liberals are evil.Like the ones who hate seeing people die,and the ones who fought for a 5 day work week and fair wages. Yep,we’re headed right to hell with that kind of thinking”. ACK.
Rayne @ 248 –
don’t know if you are still watching this thread… but i wanted to let you know that i read what you wrote and my heart goes out to you and to your family.
(((((Rayne)))))
i hope this will help (and not hurt you more)… the way i see it is that maryam is right to say what she says and to challenge us… especially our natural desire to scapegoat bushco when our problems go much deeper than that.
but that does not make you a monster, i know you are not. i know that you are an inspiration to many people (including me).
please ignore me if my words add to your pain. peace.
Fresh thread, up and running for anyone who wants one…
A hug for Rayne. And another one for raven, just because…
cinnamonape @ 216
I wish I had said that!
Anyone who wants to measure the level of insanity of bush and the neo-cons, as they made their “plans” and pimped their war, needs look no farther than the fact that one of the benchmarks of their fantasies, was that they thought they would be allowed to rebuild that old Mosul-to-Haifa pipeline; run it across northern Iraq, and then across Syria (!), and down into Haifa, where they could start tankering out lots of oil for the U.S. and Britain. With, of course, a big skim for Israel.
THAT, friends and neighbors, was the stuff of purest idiocy.
And, to the mods:
“Steamy evening” or cool fall evening; the debate on the degree of influence which Isreal exercises on amercan foreign policy goes squarely to the heart of this miserable war that bush and his administration have embroiled us in.
The influence which AIPAC and the Irael lobby have on our policies is, by any yardstick, worthy of discussion. And when better than now to talk about that, even rant about it, as the question of how to get our troops home and let the people of Iraq decide if they need an even bloodier civil war than what is now going on, or if they all need to make some huge compromises, to avoid that, is so important?
I thought IanWelsh’s post at #167, was a worthy contribution to the discussion here. Thoughtful, calm, and not uneven-handed, in his assessment of our relationship with Israel.
I was astounded to see him threatened by one of the mods here. Some people who check in here regularly, but don’t post, think that FDL has a pro-Isreal agenda, which would tie in with the support for Hillary which a number of the staff here have shown. I’m not saying that is so, but I think it’s a valid point to raise. In fact, when I was posting about AIPAC’s moving money toward political candidates, and about their involvement in spying, it ruffled some pro-Isreal feathers on some people who post here, who just did NOT want to talk about that.
Siun, are you seriously claiming that we should NOT bring up controversial subjects such as the discussion of Israel, because the moderators are tired or because they’re volunteers?
I think that’s nonsense.
Jane, I’m sure you’re keeping up with this thread. You and the staff do yourselves a disservice by trying to keep such a tight restriction on the subject matter. Particularly when it’s presented in a way that invites reasonable discussion, as Ian’s did.
If you’re worried about controversial and heated posts, then you’re going to need a cattle-prod, because we haven’t begun to experience the intramural disagreements about this war, the people who created it, the people who are sustaining it, and the people who want to end our active participation in it.
BTW, Trex, do you think that it is the policy of the Israeli government to support the removal of american troops from Iraq? It’s a rhetorical question; You’re not a fool.
And since that policy has a LARGE influence on the american political scene, I think that we should discuss it freely and openly, particularly since practically everyone posting here wants our troops home, and soon.
I’m sorry, but when Hillary Clinton talks about her plans to “end the war”, anyone with a brain should ask her about her strong ties to AIPAC and about her cozy and on-going relationship with Joe Lieberman; two entities who most definitely do NOT want to “end the war”.
Rex, you guys need to let us roll some. If you keep on yanking on leashes, when we’re posting reasonable and valid questions, you’ll turn into just another blog with a narrow little agenda; and a confused one, at that.
Tanbark @ 255
Tanbark, it’s about avoiding anything that can be construed as “anti-Semitic”. Even though one can read criticism of the Israeli government in Israeli newspapers that makes the harshest stuff posted here sound timid.
I will start by saying my commiserations to Raven. When my brother Dario was killed in a traffic accident I was very moved – and grateful, for the outpouring from people here.
I will say also my commiserations to Rayne. I know a little I think how it must feel for you. Not much but a little.
Guides is written mostly by Irakis in Irak. You met one of them and she spoke to you honestly and without pretense. Many of you were “hurt” did you expect one of your country’s victims to love you? To feel anything other than hate? Some tried to say “I am not to blame” understandable. But there is a difference between guilt for a crime, culpability, and responsibility. And every single American whether they like it or not. Is responsible for what their government and their army does.
It’s Americans who until very recently liked to say “people get the government they deserve” I suggest you start to think about that. Because what really hurts it seems to me is that Americans can longer say:
“We’re the good guys – right?”
WRONG.
One person raised a non-issue whether or not Maryam was a Ba’athist. althespook says that this is a concern. I have to say that for someone who says that he was at one time a professional inteligence officer I found the question surprising.
I find myself wondering whether it was an attempt to shirk American responsibility by impugning her motives. Because as a professional inteligence officer he would be well aware that if you wanted to go to college in Irak then you were required to join and attend Ba’ath party meetings. That or be thrown out of college and left to the tender mercies of the Mukhbarat. That is how dictators work.
The person to have asked was that Maryam and here’s the reply she would have given.
“Of course I was in the Ba’ath party why do you think I’m alive?”
As she is now on her way back to Irak I am giving you her reply for her.
I think we should also lay the red herring that Ba’athist Irak wasn’t anything other than horrible. It was. If you kept your head low you were ok. But if you raised even the smallest suspicion. Then you were dead and it wasn’t quick and it wasn’t clean. What happened if you actively opposed Saddam?
Let me give you an example:
Ali who writes on our site was one of the people who rose against Saddam. He doesn’t know where his wife and children are buried. He does know that they died screaming and begging for death because the mukhbarrat – Saddam’s secret police, made sure he got a tape. The only reason he is alive is because he was badly wounded in the uprising and was smuggled across the border before the mukhbarat got to him. But they still managed to track him down and send him a tape of his wife and children screaming for death to come.
You would think would you not that that would be a hard act to follow?
Saddam was bad, evil to the point where the word vile ….
does not even start to describe ….
to manage to create something worse is one hell of an accomplishment. And I find that I have no word for what your country has done. All I can do is quote what my dad markfromireland says:
“Well done I hope you’re fucking proud of yourselves.”
They want you out because they have no reason whatsoever to believe in America’s benevolence. [Mod: edited to remove rape reference]
And I am sorry if that analogy hurts you. But it’s nothing compared to what the Irakis are going through. To post on our site here is what they have to do:
Everything they write is double and thriple checked by two vetting teams of Irakis.
One team lives there.
One team are refugees. “In exile” as Mohammed politely puts it.
Anything that could even remotely identify them is removed. If even one censor vetos then the entire posting is not published.
That rule is unbreakable. Disobey and you are removed from the team. If you even protest you are removed from the team.
That is how bad it is.
Here is what I have done. I phoned Irak and spoken to Dad to Mohammed, Saba Ali, and others on the team. With great generosity and considerable courage. Mohammed has been trying to open dialogue with Americans. Here is what he says:
I am going to finish by pointing out something. “Guides” is not written even remotely with an American audience in mind. Or a civilian one either come to that. It is part of a larger project of bridge building. We have Americans who read, and comment there. Rarely. But not even once has one of them thought to ask.
What are the divides being bridged? By whom is the bridge being built? Why? And for whom?
Not. Even. Once.
du
note to moderator.
My immediately preceding comment will have tripped your filter.
*poof*
It is neither questioning her motives, nor a failure to empathize, nor a denial of the horrific realities she must confront, nor, finally, even a denial of our responsibility for those realities, to point out that her characterization of history, of our intentions and behavior, and of the intentions and behavior of other actors may — for entirely understandable and even honorable reasons, and without any intent to mislead on her part — not be entirely accurate. Just as we are going to have to find some way to apprehend and understand what we did to the Iraqis, they’re going to have to find some way to apprehend and understand what they’re doing to each other.
Phoenix, thanks for the reply, and for all of the good posts you’ve put up, at Steve’s, at Drift’s, and here.
I understand about some people playing the “anti-semitic” card.
There’s nothing for it; we need to examine all of this.
I just got back from my first look at, and listen to, John Edwards, in a campaign appearance at a Union Steelworkers hall in Georgetown, S.C.
I was, as usual, obstreporous. :o) He called on me for the first question after he spoke. (And spoke very well)
I thanked he and Elizabeth for coming to a small-town venue. Maybe 250 people packing what amounted to a fair-sized classroom. SRO…and then:
“Mr. Edwards, as of two months ago, you had a statement on your website that you had not taken any donations that were channeled to you from AIPAC. Is that still true, and do you plan to continue that policy?”
Edwards: “I have taken no PAC funds, and will not take any.”
At which point, I said “Thank you” and sat down.
I hope no one here thinks I’m anti-semitic, because I am not.