(We were joined in comments tonight by Dr. Maryam, an Iraqi Pediatric Oncologist. The discussion allowed us to hear a very clear voice from Iraq, a voice missing in the news we normally read – the conversation begins below the fold.)
Jim Wolf of Reuters had a catchy story that caught my eye earlier this week:
Like the maker of an out-of-favor car or sneaker, the U.S. military needs a new “branding” campaign to earn civilian support in Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots, a report for the Pentagon said on Tuesday.
“We will help you” could be the pitch, said the 211-page survey by RAND Corp.,
snip
“Like commercial firms that must update unattractive brand identities, so too should the United States consider updating its military’s brand identity to suit current and future operational environments,” the report said.
snip
“It is a promise that can be kept,” the authors said. “And because it positions the United States as a partner of indigenous populations, it does not usurp their authority, dignity or responsibility.”
Later in the week, the full report became available – Jeffrey Feldman over at Frameshop discusses it and has the PDF. Titled “Enlisting Madison Avenue: The Marketing Approach to Earning Popular Support in Theaters of Operation” the report cost $400,000 and was written by Todd C. Helmus, a clinical psychologist who included the warning “Certain things do not translate well.” Karen deYoung of the Washington Post however seems to like the new marketing which she sees as part of a “new Bush Iraq strategy:”
Helmus and his co-authors concluded that the “force” brand, which the United States peddled for the first few years of the occupation, was doomed from the start and lost ground to enemies’ competing brands. While not abandoning the more aggressive elements of warfare, the report suggested, a more attractive brand for the Iraqi people might have been “We will help you.” That is what President Bush’s new Iraq strategy is striving for as it focuses on establishing a protective U.S. troop presence in Baghdad neighborhoods, training Iraq’s security forces, and encouraging the central and local governments to take the lead in making things better.
But given reports like yesterday’s of the U.S. bombing of the district of al-Husseiniya in northeastern Baghdad late on Friday night where casualties rose to 23 including women and children, Lurch of Main and Central offers the definitive response:
Isn’t it a perfect example of the age of Bu$h that we plan to swarm the civilians with a new propaganda campaign even as we’re killing them off?
So anyone know if those guys are still giving out the Shinola Awards for “the world’s worst rebranding?”
We may be joined tonight by Maryam who is an Iraqi pediatric oncologist and who has written here and here. If she is able to participate (esp given the time zones involved) please welcome her – we have so much to learn from her.
h/t to Ran at Moon of Alabama for Reuters link. YouTube of “Sell, Sell” by Alan Price Group from O Lucky Man – a surprisingly prescient film – scheduled to finally be released on DVD this summer along with If…
Related posts:
- Progressive Groups Target Companies over Their Chamber of Commerce Membership
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- The Major General’s Temper Tantrum
- CIA: Focus on the Beatings, Not the Incompetence
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gotta be close!
uno
Ha, first time to be first!
Great post Siun
Friends – please welcome our guest Maryam who has forgone sleep to join us.
Thank you Maryam – we’re honored to have your here tonight.
D’oh!
No Zed for me.
Congrats, nonplussed (love that handle, btw).
Diva
The CEO presidency —- sell it all to us and make a huge profit. Look out for the stockholders rather than the customers or the employees.
The “rebranding” effort had better start with the Coalition of the Billing,
because they’re pretty fed up.
A very warm welcome, Maryam. I wish I could describe how horrible about what George Bush has done to your country.
Thank you for your welcome.
What shall we talk about today you and I?
Maryam @ 10
Are you and your family safe? are you still in iraq or have you managed to get out?
Ah Maryam – you quote a very wise young man.
Welcome to Firedoglake.
Perhaps you could tell us a bit about how you see things these days in Iraq?
nonplussed @ 3
does this mean you are plussed now?
Maryam, do you live in Baghdad? If so, please describe a little of what life is like. We are being told that neighborhoods are being “cleaned up.” Is that true?
Welcome, Maryam! My husband and I have been talking about how to counter arguments from people who say our forces need to stay in Iraq and “finish the job.” What do you recommend we say in response to “The Iraqi people want us there.” other than “No, they don’t.”
No I am in Europe buying and arranging for supplies of medications to be brought. When I am in Irak I live in and run a refugee camp for children whose parents have been murdered by the American war against my people. I will be back there in a few days. For obvious reasons I will not under any circumstances detail my movements to any American.
Welcome Maryam. Anything you wish to tell us, we would appreciate.
oddmommy @ 13
I shall remain without plus until the cabal is safely ensconced in that special corner of hell on Earth (I like Devil’s Island, myself) reserved for War Criminals. I am not irrevocably bound to the on Earth part.
Everywhere you look, nothing but death. The Bush cabal are like vampires.
Bring in Karen Hughes again. She’ll make everyone like us in the Middle East.
We can win these people with chocolate bars and cig’s. Makes as much sense as that Pentagon baloney. I have an idea. Why don’t we try a pull-out. We’ve banked enough hatred for us in the Arab world to last a thousand years.
Let’s also give Maryam some time for response – it is the middle of the night/very early AM and we tend to stack up so many questions for our guests!
Maryam @ 16
What a wonderful thing to do. I have read somewhere that orphans in Iraq are regarded as outcasts. Is that accurate?
Maryam I work with refugees from all over the world who come to Texas. What a shame that the United States accepts so few Iraqis when we are the ones who caused the war that prompted them to flee.
Speaking of ‘branding the war’: what black hole did that War Czar fall into?
Maryam – we have talked here before during my posts about sending donations to Red Crescent to support their work. Does that continue to be the best way for us to help – besides doing everything we can to end the occupation?
Excellent post, Siun! It reminds me of the notion that no amount of lipstick or rouge you plaster on a pig, it’s still a pig!!!
Someone has pointed out that no self-respecting Iraqi would ever believe a country would do anything selflessly for another country. They have experience with only exploitative behavior. Madison Avenue is hopelessly stuck in their own cultural prison.
TexB @ 7
I was grocery shopping with a girlfriend this afternoon. She picked up my box of granola and said “Hmmm. Do you think this is what Cheney did to get so powerful?”
On the back of the box:
“Buy USA at retail price, get the World Free!”
(It was for Hammond World Atlas wall maps, but still.)
Diva
Maryam @ 16
May God bless you for the work you do. It is deeply painful to many Americans that your fear is rational. Most of us grew up believing that never would a pediatriacian buying medicine for children have to fear us. But sadly, your reasons are “obvious.”
It depends on whether they have a family or not. Most will be taken in by relatives. The Islamic charity I run is for those who have no one or whose family is too poor to be able to feed another mouth.
Welll, some might call it marketing; I’d call it propaganda.
eCAHNomics @ 26
Same war – new slogan – to be sold like laundry soap. What a country !
Also (OT) welcome to msmolly from the last thread.
The Red Crescent to answer your question Siun is the only body working everywhere in Irak and outside it. It is probably the best way for those who want to undo some of the evil that America does to Irakis to help with humanitarian relief.
Thank you, Siun, for this post, and for your ongoing efforts to focus our attention on the countless Iraqi victims of our aggression. Your posts always shine the light of truth amid the lies and nonsense of main-stream American media, and they remind us of what is truly important here. The thing that makes me most crazy about this war is that we Americans are kept so ignorant about it—we see no real information about its costs in terms of human life. The government constantly tells us that we have brought freedom to Iraq, when it is obvious that we have brought chaos, devastation, and civil war instead. Shame on the regular media for ignoring the Iraqis who are trying to survive in the hell we have created of their country.
Maryam, thank you so much for speaking the truth, and for joining us here. Please tell people, when you return to Iraq, that many Americans are praying for your release from this nightmare, and that we are caught in a nightmare, too—a very mild one, by comparison—in which we cannot get our elected officials to listen to us. We seem unable to stop this war that we never wanted. I weep daily over what we have done to your country and your people.
Maryam
Are most of the children in your care reasonably healthy or are they injured – physically, that is?
Thank you for your good work in a world which knows little kindness.
Before the American invasion, was there talk in Irak of somehow getting Sadaam Hussein out of power, Maryam?
Maryam – one thing that is of particular concern I hear is the lack of clean water. Are you able to access water for the children you care for?
In the days of Saddam, all Americans felt that the Iraqi people were good, and the Iraqi government was bad. Is there a similar feeling in Iraq about the American people and our government?
Maryam, have you ever been in touch with Jon Powers and his ‘War Kids Relief’ org? Here’s a link that might be mutually beneficial!
http://www.warkidsrelief.org/
Hi, Maryam, welcome!!
We get so little truth from our government on the situation in Iraq. Is there a full blown civil war there?
BigMitch @ 37
Are you a just a hopeless optimist?
althespook @ 11
AK, I had a comment for you below in epu land. I’m curious about your feelings.
I can be reached at clichy at mac dot com
Stop telling lies to yourself American. We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values. we know that because we see how they behave and have to bury their victims. If you are stupid enough to think we feel anything but hatred and contrempt for your soldiers and the country that sent them to make war on my people then you are a fool.
As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse.
I have a couple of questions.
Why the difference in spelling of ‘Iraq’ as “Irak”?
And at the website linked via your name, is there a story behind that byline? I mean – Jezzus, that’s quit a vicious statement directed at an innocent people, and shows a phenomenal lack of compassion and ignorance.
My army major efriend sent me notice of and essay contest sponsored by their Combat Terrorism Center at West Point. The Q is: How can the U.S. credibly and ethically deter adherents of extremist religious ideologies from engaging in terrorist activity?
I thought you’d enjoy what I wrote in the war of ideas section, which is oh so on point with this topic:
Maryam there are gentle people in this country. There are kind people who do not hate. I am so sorry that these are not the ones you have met so far. But I understand the nature of your anger.
Maryam @ 43
Oh-oh….so I take it, Maryam, that you won’t treat us with kid gloves, then? We’ll be learning your truth.
james @ 42
james, sorry I’m running both threads at once. Please see my 198 on last thread for my feelings. bottom line, we got much worse to worry about than blackwater.
Maryam: Thank you for being here tonight.
Wordsmith – Maryam has seen and experienced all that our country has done to her and her country.
I don’t think you have kid gloves left after you try to save and too often have to bury the children bombed by our forces.
Irak is a better transliteration. The quote you are referring to is this:
And is from a senior American officer. It is a perfect example of how your troops regard us. Which is why we highlight it.
As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse.
Some in our country are, this is true. This evening you are speaking with Americans who care very deeply about your people and about holding those in our government accountable.
How close is this getting to Stalingrad during WWII, I wonder, for the Iraqi people in Baghdad (the extreme heat obviously substituting for the Russian winter’s cold).
From a frontline (outside the Green Zone) FOB-stationed American soldier in Baghdad:
And (in response to a comment):
http://strypgia.livejournal.com/32324.html
Only $400,000 for this? Gosh…would have thought this was worth at least $8 to $10 million to find out.
So the way forward for Americans in Iraq and the greater ME is through ‘rebranding’?
Hmmm…such American profoundity astounds.
This does open to some inanity however…
For starters…”It’s not just Imperialism…it is AMERICAN Imperialism” or how about “We are the “Good Guys” Iraq—it’s the GOOD GUYS bombing and killing you—so it’s ALL GOOD”…
or…
This one harks back to 1957 and the Chrysler Corporations classis car ad…”Suddenly…it’s 1960″…instead go with “Suddenly…it’s 1984″
Well…the idea that the Americans only need to ‘rebrand’ for more success in Iraq or the ME by means of a new slogan or “image” is pretty stupid.
But being stupid is the core American ME strategy is it not?
So how about this catchy rebranding…
“We may be stupid…Get use to it”
My comment appears to have vanished.
odd mommy-left you a comment at 195 and 198 in last thread…….
hi siun, now to read your post…..as you already know, love your writing and your references which are always worth following ….
i was epu’d…….been catching up all day………..i am almost on time now.
(althspook and James – if you have a conversation going on the last thread, perhaps you could finish it there – it is enough that we ask Maryam so many questions in the dead of night (and I hope someone is keeping the coffee brewing!) without her also having to sort through other discussions)
Maryam @ 54
This happens sometimes. The mods will find it,
If I were an Iraqi my thinking might go something like this. President Bush is doing these atrocities in my country. And the American people elected this man not once, but twice.
Siun @ 50
Nope – I certainly would not expect her to and personally, I think it’s nonsenical to think otherwise.
Maryam @ 43
Thanks for telling it like it is. I get so sick of everyone here treating the U.S. troops as though they’re so wonderful and thankingthem for their service. Soldiers are trained to kill, and in the hopeless environment they’re in, they behave very brutally. I don’t know why that isn’t completely obvious to everyone here, but it isn’t and I’m glad you said it in words of one syllable.
You are also right that U.S. soldiers come directly out of U.S. culture. There are many wonderful peeople in the United States, but the militaristic culture of the country makes many into uncaring brutes.
here’s the real problem with rebranding that this advertising firm doesn’t understand;
the very purpose of our invasion was to CREATE unrest, the very purpose was to destabalize the middle east, they deliberately set these wheels in motion, they tossed out every plan from our strategists, they deliberately undermanned and under equipped our forces
they deliberately allowed the standing police force to disband without jobs and with their weapons
they deliberately left the cache of ordinance unprotected
they deliberately allowed the oil fields to go attacked, they deliberately allowed the water systems be ruined
there is no “rebramding”
this president is a dispensationalist and thinks armageddon is a GOOD thing
they DON’T want a stabalized infrasturcture, they DON’T want a free flow of petroleum and they DON’T want a democracy
they’ve done everything in their power to make sure this occupation failed
rebranding?
not so much
Siun @ 56
absolutely. that’s why I’m only posting there right now. don’t think there’s much I can do to help Maryam beyond that.
hard to see what does “rebranding” does for an orphan or a widow or maimed bomb victim…
TexB @ 46
I was walking in Paris with my then 7 year old son two days before we invaded Iraq.
The magazines like Paris Match and other picture zines had pictures of Tommy Franks with a sneer on his face pointing his finger at the world; a US Marine running with a cheek full of tobacco and a snarl with an M-16 at the ready.
This was how the world saw us then, it’s how the world sees us now.
I was in Romania while Rummy was doing one of his grand tours of the countries we were trying to recruit with dollars and the people I met there wanted to know why the Americans put up with this. My Russian friends ask me why we allow these criminals to ruin our country.
My point is that the rest of the world could give a shit how many gentle American there are. In their minds the US stands for something other than renditions and assassinations and GITMO and leaders who defy the constitution.
There is more respect for the rule of law in places like Romania, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, and other countries most Americans would consider armpits of the world than there is here in the United States, not the fucking motherland, or the homeland, the united States of America.
If the Democrats want to do something constructive they can start using the terms United States and country in place of homeland whenever they give speeches.
I’m tired of listening to fascist newspeak in this country.
siun-what has become of the world of thinking people that we need to bring in opinion makers to tell us how to handle certain situations?
that thinking is being farmed out, that facing a situation has to be passed off to a contractor to tell us what we should feel and do in a given situation? ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh………it burns me………..cuz i feel so deeply, i can’t imagine farming that out…………………
Maryam @ 43
Dang, Ma’am! You paint with mighty broad paint strokes! I fully empathize with you and I know that we here at the lake share the same sentiments! We sincerely regret the war crimes committed in our name, yet, you must realize that many Americans do not condone it! I’m a twenty yr Vet, I would not have committed, in fact I would have reported such atrocities if they occurred within my purview!!!
Siun @ 57
Sorry, I just tried to alert AK there was something for him in another place. Didn’t mean to distract.
Maryam @ 43
This comment has changed my entire outlook on an important issue. I now believe we need a draft.
I know that American values are not racist, brutal, murderous, or criminal, though clearly there are those among us who have those traits. Even most people who support this war (and I doubt any are to be found here) believe they are helping everyday Iraqis.
We Americans are shocked when we here instances of rascist, brutal, criminal conduct. Our government makes every effort to shield us from knowing about them, including criminal conduct of its own.
Those of us who hate this war, hate it precisely because of the conduct you describe. And that is 70% of the people in America.
james @ 64
…..The magazines like Paris Match and other picture zines had pictures of Tommy Franks with a sneer on his face pointing his finger at the world; a US Marine running with a cheek full of tobacco and a snarl with an M-16 at the ready.
This was how the world saw us then, it’s how the world sees us now……
There is more respect for the rule of law in places like Romania, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine, and other countries most Americans would consider armpits of the world than there is here in the United States, not the fucking motherland, or the homeland, the united States of America.
If the Democrats want to do something constructive they can start using the terms United States and country in place of homeland whenever they give speeches.
I’m tired of listening to fascist newspeak in this country.
Here! Here! That crap is straight out of the ‘Primer on Nazism, Facism, and 1984.’
what we need to do is rebrand “getting the frig out if Iraq”
something along the lines of
“HEY, MORONS, THEY DON’T WANT US THERE, WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH MEN, WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH EQUIPTMENT AND WE DON’T HAVE THE RESOURCES”
that would be excellant rebranding
Wordsmith — the last letter in Iraq (Irak) expresses to a phoneme which does not exist in English.
As I am an Iraki and as my job is to treat children maimed and deformed by the weapons your country uses and then prevented me from getting the medicines used to treat those cancers you will forgive me if I tell you that you too are telling lies to yourself. What we konw is that when it comes murdering Iraki civilians that there is no difference between the cynical and corrupt party called the Democrats and the cynical and corrupt party called the Republicans. Both are infected with the belief that America has the right to behave as it wishes especially when the people being killed are not white.
I used to think that in my old naive days. I don’t believe it at all anymore.
dmac @ 66
What burns is that this makes it so very clear that this admin and its enablers are all about manipulating the American People, and the world, rather than actually working toward any of the ideals they hide behind.
Rebrand all you want, Theocons. You keep making it clearer and clearer that you have NOTHING to sell.
Diva
Maryam. My 12 year old son wants to know if kids his age are still able to go to school in Iraq or if it is now too dangerous.
Maryam –
Do most Irakis you know expect an increase, a decrease, or no change in the level of violence inside Iraq, once Americans have completely pulled out of their country?
Will Kurd, Shi’ite, and Sunni be able to live together again in peace with the occupying American army gone?
“Rebranding” is like enrolling for a class in First Aid, while on the street lie people who have been bombed, burned, hurt in horrile ways. It is unspeakable to say, “Have a Coke and a Smile.”
(Maryam’s missing comment is at #51 – one word triggered the autofilter – thank you to our mods for taking care of it right away!)
pow wow @ 77
I don’t think they lived in peace before. If they weren’t fighting each other it’s because Saddam enforced some semblance of order.
And Saddam was no friend of the Kurds or the Shia.
Please tell us more about the cancers, the types and who is affected. I have wondered about this, as there are allusions to radioactive waste in (very few) reports in the media. How many people have been affected? How have you been prevented from having access to medications, and is this still going on? Besides donations to the Red Crescent, what types of concrete assistance would be helpful to you and your colleagues?
The Republicans: The party of privilege, propaganda and pardons.
There’s yer re-branding.
Maryam @ 73
Whew! I’m beginning to feel radical. America. Get out of Iraq. Charge George Bush and the rest with crimes against humanity. And upon their conviction, sentence them to the harshest penalty possible.
dmac @ 56
thanks dmac — left response at 211.
Maryam @ 72
There is a great deal of truth in that, Maryam. But the Corrupt Party called the Republicans and the Corrupt Party called the Democrats are not the same as All American People. *No more than all Iraki shi’a muslims believe in murdering all of their sunni neighbors. No more than all Iraki sunni muslims believe in murdering all of their shi’a neighbors. No more than all Iraki Muslims believe in murdering all of their dhimmi neighbors.
Or am I telling myself a lie about the basic decency of most Irakis?
Diva
*corrected this to be clearer.
I know some of the readers here are from Michigan so I hope you don’t mind me posting this article from a blog on Reuters web site. It’s concerning pollutants getting dumped into Lake Michigan’s fresh water from BP’s expansion of oil refinary in Indiana.
…The massive BP oil refinery in Whiting, Ind., is planning to dump significantly more ammonia and industrial sludge into Lake Michigan, running counter to years of efforts to clean up the Great Lakes.
Indiana regulators exempted BP from state environmental laws to clear the way for a $3.8 billion expansion that will allow the company to refine heavier Canadian crude oil. They justified the move in part by noting the project will create 80 new jobs.
Under BP’s new state water permit, the refinery — already one of the largest polluters along the Great Lakes — can release 54 percent more ammonia and 35 percent more sludge into Lake Michigan each day. Ammonia promotes algae blooms that can kill fish, while sludge is full of concentrated heavy metals.
What a way to create 80 jobs!
The story, which was the first indication that Chicago city officials were given about the situation, continues:
BP, which aggressively markets itself as an environmentally friendly corporation, is investing heavily in Canadian crude oil to reduce its reliance on sources in the Middle East. Extracting petroleum from the thick goop is a dirtier process than conventional methods. It also requires more energy that could significantly increase greenhouse gases linked to global warming.
…
Now, congresspeople from the area are asking the EPA why they allowed this, including a Republican Congressman who said, “In my book, BP, which tries to market itself as an environmentally friendly company, now stands for ‘Bad Pollution.’”
Chicago city officials are exploring legal options and will meet with BP officials, who are gearing up a PR counter campaign. The Chicago Parks Commission will be soliciting petition signatures in the popular lakeshore region this weekend.
What I’m wondering is, why has BP been dumping 21 million gallons of waste in Lake Michigan even before this? Why is there a huge refinery near Chicago? The Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago recently opened an exhibit about “The City of the Future,” and a team from the University of Illinois put together a presentation claiming that as we move deeper into the 21st century, fresh water will become more and more important. The Great Lakes will be one of our greatest resources, and currently hold 90 percent of North America’s surface fresh water and 20 percent of the entire planet’s.
Isn’t water more important than gasoline?
MOD note: Welcome Sunshine. We removed your comment from the thread while a live guest was present.
1) It depends on where they live and on whether there are teachers.
2) Given that more than 90% of all attacks are against American and green zone government troops you should be capable of working that out for yourself. :-)
pow wow @ 77
Unfair Q. Remember the principle of path dependence. The U.S. invasion of Iraq launched a disastrous change that will play out in horrific ways regardless of what the U.S. does now.
maryam at 43 says-”Stop telling lies to yourself American. We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values. we know that because we see how they behave and have to bury their victims. If you are stupid enough to think we feel anything but hatred and contrempt for your soldiers and the country that sent them to make war on my people then you are a fool.
As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse.”
hate to tell you, but most of us wish it never would have happened, fought for it not to happen, that we would take you all into our arms and rock you until you fell asleep, that we would feed you, clothe you, and support you in whatever you need at great expense to ourselves……….that what you are seeing in your country is not what we, in america, offer you…….and that we are doing our best to change what is happening there, commited in our name, that we do not agree with……….
and donating to red crescent is something we do to show you that…….not enough, i know, but true to its core………..
Just a quick comment to say “THANK YOU” to Maryam, and to let her know that my prayers are with her.
That may be, eCAHN @ 88, but I’d like to allow this Iraki to have her say about the future of her country, as she sees it (I’m not trying to answer the questions by asking them).
Wrong we lived in peace for centuries.
So how came it that 60% of the officer corps was Shia? Saddam was brutal in his response to rebellion. He did not particularly care which sect you were a member of what he was interested in was whether you were loyal to him or not.
Incidentaly, Maryam, most of the people here don’t believe that Bush was elected. Though I am not a designated spokesperson, I would guess that most of us feel that the election of 2000 was stolen, and whether or not the election of 2004 was stolen, nobody doubts that George W. Bush would not have been a candidate if he hadn’t stolen the 2000 election.
In America you sometimes see bumperstickers, that say “Don’t blame me. I voted for (insert name of local losing politician.) I wish we had a bumper sticker which said, “Don’t blame America. We voted for Gore.”
Believe me. This war would have never happened if Gore had been elected.
pow wow @ 90
Fair enough. My point was that her “say about the future ofher country” is vastly constrained by what we’ve done to it.
You know, folks, in this context, at this time, defensiveness is not an appropriate response – regardless of the truth of what you are saying.
Maryam:
I appreciate your candor. My heart aches for you, and for those who you are treating. What is happening in your country is not done in my name, nor in the names of many, many other Americans.
I am a nurse. What can I do to help?
Fern @ 94
Amen and thank you, Fern.
Tonight’s a good night for some serious listening.
Big Mitch – you must remember that under the Clinton/Gore administration, our sanctions killed an estimated 500,000 Iraqi children.
And our depleted uranium from Gulf War 1 killed as well – and our sanctions did not allow doctors like Maryam to get the medicines she required to help those children.
Fern @ 94
Thank you Fern, I have been angrily looking for these words..
pow wow @ 89
pow wow
I thought this was going to be a _discussion_? An _exchange_ of views?
Maryam, Esala’am Aleikhum. Rabena maaki.
I’m glad you are here, even though your anger is hard to hear and it’s hard to accept my part of it.
To all Irakis: rabena maakom. I wish I had more to offer than that prayer.
Maasalama.
Diva
Maryam, I have two questions for you:
1) During the Gulf War I, the US Air Force claimed to have killed 250,00 Irakis. Between 1992 and 2000, the UN estimated that excess deaths in Irak, due to the destruction we caused your peoples’ public health infrastructure, was at about 500,000. The British publication Lancet, over a year ago, claimed that since the invasion, about 650,00 or more Irakis have perished in the violence and mayhem we have caused. If we add up these credible claims, we must be responsible for the deaths of about 1.5 million of your countrymen and women. Do you think such an estimate is accurate?
What do the people of Iraq want the American government to do?
Maryam @ 91
Wrong we lived in peace for centuries.
So how came it that 60% of the officer corps was Shia? Saddam was brutal in his response to rebellion. He did not particularly care which sect you were a member of what he was interested in was whether you were loyal to him or not.
May I rephrase what you said in language that is often used here? Tell me if you think this captures what you said:
Saddam Hussein was not a brutal dictator. He did deal unmercifully with anyone who threatened his power, but otherwise left the people alone.
Fern – thank you.
For those who would like to help, make a donation to the Red Crescent at this link. In the drop down menu, select Iraq Humanitarian response so your donation goes to the people working at such risk to bring help.
As to the Kurds they are not Arab. Nor are they Turkish. Nor are they Persian. They have not forgotten that they at one time ruled a large part of the Middle East. Salahuddin Al-Ayyubi whom you call Saladin and who defeated the crusaders was a Kurd. Their problem is that that was many centuries ago and that over the intervening centuries they are divided between themselves and between 3 other lands. More importantly they control water resources. If you are speaking of right and wrong they deserve a homeland. Being practical their alliance with the Americans has set that back for a very long time. When you are forced to leave things will go hard for them I fear.
Maryam, it is hard to think of a question that is not insulting to you. Is there anything you would like to tell Americans as a people, something that might help them realize their true standing in your eyes, and in the eyes of the world?
Fern @ 94
Perhaps my comments have seemed defensive, and if so, I apologize.
Yet, let me say, that I wish Maryam could know how deeply we are pained by what our country has done to hers, how much we feel the pain of the Iraqi people, and how acutely aware we are of the fact that even with all the pain we feel for her and her country, we really have no idea of the horrors our country has imposed on hers. I wish that Maryam could return to her country, and when the time is right, tell her countrymen and women that there are communities in America that are deeply ashamed, and greatly angered by what our country does. That most of us are imbued with Christian love for the children in your country, even those of us of other faiths. And that we pray for peace for you, as ferverently as you do.
Maryam @ 91
May I rephrase what you said in language that is often used here? Tell me if you think this captures what you said:
Saddam Hussein was not a brutal dictator. He did deal unmercifully with anyone who threatened his power, but otherwise left the people alone.
eCAHNomics @ 61
Double that. Our people are no worse than the ordinary Germans of World War II, but unfortunately, not much better. Our civil liberties, though badly eroded, are stronger than the Germans had, and our government is (still) more decentralized. But taking all that into account, we have a terrible tendency to think we own the world. This came from exterminating the native people on our part of the Continent, which suggested to Hitler his strategy for the Slavs in Eastern Europe. We enslaved millions of people to get rich.
These issues are in the past, and for the most part we have swept them under the rug — when I say ‘we’, I mean the ordinary people, not those you come into contact with on this and similar blogs. The United States has a terribly violent streak, and until we are defeated and understand ourselves to be defeated in Iraq or somewhere else, that violence will find its outlet on some other people.
I am so sorry for what we have done to your people. I know there is nothing we can do to make up for it, and that we have no right to forgiveness.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
What do the people of Iraq want the American PEOPLE to do?
Edward Teller yes. It is an underestimate if anything.
How does it feel to know that your country “the shining city on the hill” is not only well into genocidal territory but has been for a long time.
Maryam @ 91
That is eye-opening, coupled with the fact it was one of the most secular countries in the region! However, I disagree with the centuries notion! It was carved out of the WW I treaties concocted by the European Colonialist powers and totally disregarded the Kurds, in particular, and the Sunni and Shi’a tribalism! They were arbitrary lines drawn in the sand! Saddam was particularly harsh to the Kurds, along with the Turks and Persians!
behindthefall @ 23
Welcome, Maryam!
Maybe the “War Czar” reviewed all the classified data on the occupation and concluded, “Hey, Preznit, this is crazy! We gotta get the hexx out of there!!!”
Whereupon Cheney jerked his chain and confined him to quarters?
Bob in
HI WIAZA few miles from the Phoenix airport
BigMitch @ 105
In this context your pain is irrelevant.
Maryam @ 87:
That sounds like an answer to my question about the expected post-invasion levels of violence, as Irakis understand it, Maryam. Thank you. Yes – and I understand that that 90% figure comes from our own Pentagon, to boot.
The problem in America is that our Members of Congress keep insisting to us that Iraqis need to be saved from the post-occupation violence by our continued presence – so hearing that an Iraki and her friends don’t fear the expected post-occupation situation in Iraq is very, very important to rebut those who use that excuse to continue our occupation.
So it sounds to me like you are saying that a (dramatic) decrease in violence is what the Irakis you know expect after the Americans depart (but not perhaps for Kurds who have worked closely with the Americans – so they may need some sort of extra international help, post-occupation?).
The poison of the powerful.
Thank you, Siun, for enabling this powerful conversation.
Maryam, I am sorry. I am dreadfully, horribly sorry. Many of us hope to bring to justice those who’ve committed these crimes against your people. They are powerful actors and have been astride the world for a long time. I hope they face justice. More, though, I hope your people gain peace, which I know can only come if America leaves.
Again, I am sorry.
In my previous comment @ 114 should have read:
Pow Wow at 114 says: “So it sounds to me like you are saying that a (dramatic) decrease in violence is what the Irakis you know expect after the Americans depart (but not perhaps for Kurds who have worked closely with the Americans – so they may need some sort of extra international help, post-occupation?)” Maryam, do the Kurds have to fear the Turkish, as well?
BigMitch @ 105
Same for me. I feel defensive, but I’m trying to communicate in spite of that. I apologize for any hostility that leaks through.
Exactly, so, Big Mitch.
The prayers of many, many, many Americans are with all Irakis. We ask God to end your nightmare and and suffering, just as you ask Him to do so for your own sakes. Sometimes it feels like that does nothing at all, but that makes God too small, and shows how fragile my own faith really is.
Salaam.
Diva
Maryam @ 110
Oh, Maryam, I’ve known it for awhile. I started figuring it out in 1967, when working with people who handled Agent Orange. The number of people we killed in SE Asia, through use of Agent Orange alone, has now exceeded 10 million, when you include those who died young or were killed early by their family because of their awful birth defects. And now we do this to you with radiation that will last even longer than Agent Orange.
My second question is what kind of solidarity do professionals in your country feel for the Paslestinian people, and how would you compare Israeli policies in Palestine to American policies in your land?
Maryam, what do you think of Al Maliki and the current parliament?
Ed*ard Teller @ 120
All dictators are brutal. But if you did not threaten him and stayed out of politics life was safe for you.
Pow wow – nobody cares what your stupid congress thinks or does. Your country is defeated the only question now is the scale of the defeat.
It is not for the loser to dictate terms. Until your troops leave the resistance will keep on killing them because that is the only thing that works with racist empires such as the American empire.
Irak is for the Irakis the murdering pigs who have boiled my people alive in a sea of their own blood are the government and people of the USA. Expecting us to tolerate the presence of your war criminals in uniform on our soil is too fucking stupid to be worth refuting.
pow wow @ 114
It is the Kurds whom would need the most support, Post-occupation! Turkey, a NATO ally, will invade if the Kurds were to declare an independent Kurdistan! The Kurds are the largest ethnic entity without a nation of their own Globally!!! It does not bode well for the Kurds!
We discussing Russ Feingold’s intent to censure in another forum.
The lies being perpetuated about “the good” things ‘we’ have down for Iraq and her people drown out reality. Where to get our hands on information to provide legislators and ourselves on how conditions are and have deteriorated as a result of occupation? The Green Zone itself cannot be a zone of reality. I’m sitting here in air conditioning set at 73-75 while it’s 101 outside – still. How many hours of electricity to cool a seething house in Baghdad or elsewhere? And water?
loo hoo:
Al Maliki is a traitor to Islam and a traitor to Irak. He collaborates with the invaders.
In your opinion, Maryam, why did America invade Iraq?
As a reminder, Maryam is joining us at a time when she should be sound asleep – and I am deeply grateful that she has taken the time to visit.
I do not know how long she will be available – so I want to say Thank you to Maryam now in case she wishes to find her pillow.
And I’d like to ask everyone to help the work of people like Maryam by donating to the Red Crescent at this link. In the drop down menu, select Iraq Humanitarian response so your donation goes to the people working at such risk to bring help.
maryam at 43 says-”Stop telling lies to yourself American. We know that your racist brutal murdering war criminal troops came from your society and reflect its values. we know that because we see how they behave and have to bury their victims. If you are stupid enough to think we feel anything but hatred and contrempt for your soldiers and the country that sent them to make war on my people then you are a fool.
As to Saddam bad though he was your country is far worse.”
hate to tell you, but most of us wish it never would have happened, fought for it not to happen, that we would take you all into our arms and rock you until you fell asleep, that we would feed you, clothe you, and support you in whatever you need at great expense to ourselves……….that what you are seeing in your country is not what we, in america, offer you…….and that we are doing our best to change what is happening there, commited in our name, that we do not agree with……….
and donating to red crescent is something we do to show you that…….not enough, i know, but true to its core………..
There has been no electricity none in more than half of Baghdad for 10 days. In the rest of Baghdad 1 to 1½ hours per day.
Maryam @ 110
Regardless of who we are, Maryam – most every people has done something irreconcilably brutal. We are the most prominent at the moment.
Because you’re an empire now and you can make your own reality. Working really well isn’t it?
Remember that electricity means more than air conditioning – it means safe storage of food, water pumps, etc.
Maryam @ 131
How does this affect how you practice medicine? Do you have medical workers to help? How many children are you caring for? What are the most common problems and diagnoses?
Maryam @ 132
Sadly, it is working well for the people who believe that way. The criminal regime running our country is getting rich, which makes what they are doing even more shameful.
Maryam, I am ashamed for what my country has done and keeps doing. Thank you for your honesty. Very few people here understand the full magnitude of the disastor the U.S. has wrought. I think you opened some eyes.
Bless the wonderful work you are doing. You must be a remarkable woman.
Maryam, how long do you think it will take to drive out the occupiers?
Maryam, if people would would ask me whether or not most Americans share my views, I would say, no, I am well over to the left side of the political spectrum. If people were to ask you are your views representative of the Iraqi people, what would you say?
Siun @ 128
That I understand; I’ve been up since 2:30 am – I’ve been ‘on call’ and got home just awhile ago. I can educate at our children’s hospital next door; we also run a pediatric oncology clinic.
TeddySanFran @ 137
Now you’re talking, Teddy! :)
Siun @ 128
That was very strange. Didn’t ask for a credit card number.
What is very clear to me is that we are so far removed and sinfully detached from the reality that Maryam lives every day. While we debate “strategies” or express our “opposition” Maryam is trying to stop a child from bleeding to death as a direct result of our government’s actions.
It is very important that we take that in – that we understand in a direct and human way, what this means.
Maryam @ 109
Terrible, Maryam, it feels terrible.
It’s why those Americans who speak truth to the power of the US have been hated and marginalized for most of our history, and continue to be. It is easier for most people, all over the world, to kill the messenger, to break the mirror, than to see ourselves as we really are. Or to have the excuses stripped away and see the evil we do to others for what it is.
Does it make you feel good to know that many Americans are ashamed, yes, ashamed of what’s been done in our name? Of what we’ve allowed to happen, for whatever reason? Somehow, I think you are far too busy trying to care for the children my country has orphaned and maimed than to waste such energy and emotion on us.
For what it’s worth: I feel the lash of your words, and I hear the truth in them. And it feels awful. Nothing like your suffering, or the suffering of those you are trying to comfort and heal. But, yes, I feel it and it hurts. I hope God will help me use that hurt to make me a better person and a bigger force for good in this world.
I hope there will be another time when you visit us here again. A time when we can meet again as people. Just individual people, not as representatives of or stand-ins for our countries or our stereotypes.
Salaam
Diva
For almost seventeen years I have been in the streets and jailed while trying to stop our madness.. of course it has not been enough but I will keep trying every day..
Thank you so much for speaking to us.
Maryam @ 123:
Got it, Congress? So say the Iraki people.
When the resistance have killed enough of them that your country whipmers in pain. Not long now. They are already being forced to fly water into their outlying bases and can no longer supply from the north.
The person to ask that question of would be either markfromireland the follower of the Prophet Jesus (PBUH) or his son Dubhaltach. I am not a soldier – they are.
eCAHNomics @ 87
I’m not sure what you mean by path dependence, but my assessment is that a series of blunders has had a cumulative effect that is irreversible. In other words, the invasion is a failure and can’t be fixed by us. It can only be fixed by Irakis.
Bob in
HI WIAZLoo Hoo @141 – when you hit Send on the Red Crescent page, it takes you to a secure server which takes the necessary information.
Maryam @ 130
Jesus Christ! How in the hell do you function as a medical team? How?
Thank you for taking time out from your rest to meet with us, and for being frank.
Do I have your permission to quote this on my own blog?
Maryam @ 43
Wordsmith – read here about the conditions that Maryam and other doctors face. Note this was a year ago and conditions have only worsened since.
Wordsmith @ 131
A century ago, wars killed by bullets, by cannon explosions, and by diseases preying on the weak or defenseless or ignorant. But now we use chemicals – like Agent Orange – to kill millions, or depleted uranium – to kill hundreds of thousands, or land mines or cluster bombs – which stay in the ground for decades and kill little kids and hunters and farmers. And we still, like we are intentionally doing in Irak, are letting hundreds of thousands die by diseases preying on the weak or defenseless.
We know a lot now about the destructiveness of war that we didn’t know a century ago, but Americans and our most violent allies, by and large, don’t care one bit about the consequences. An example here:
One year ago last week, the biggest oil spill in the history of the Mediterranean was created during the Hizbolah War. But every time I bring it up at fdl, only a few have commented on it, and it never even existed in the MSM. When catastrophes like this can go totally undiscussed at blogs like this which claim to be progressive, I could easily ubderstand why Maryam might think we’re a bunch of sophists or dingbats at best, enablers or justifiers at worst.
Fern @ 112
No, Fern, I don’t agree at all. That would mean that the “context” here is to be publically flogged by someone who, rightly, hates Americans. I don’t believe for a minute that Siun intends this thread to be a venue solely for Dr. Maryam to vent all her understandable hatred, and for us to sit quietly and take it in.
I don’t see how discounting all of us who are genuinely trying to have a discussion with Dr Maryam, saying that her suffering and those of Irakis are the only pain that is real, or that matters, is helpful in any way. Please, Fern, spend some time in the sort of introspection you are demanding from everyone else.
Diva
Siun @ 103
Done. This is one way to help ease some of the suffering we have caused.
What’s done cannot be undone, but we should learn. I thought we had learned from the last big, senseless war, or the one before that, but many of us had not, many of us still have not, and many of us will forget too soon.
The new American strategy of war is called, “Bomb now, Die later.” It means that by destroying the infrastructure we do much more to bring a country to its knees than if we tried to kill only soldiers. But since the deaths are delayed, (because they are caused e.g. by disease) the American military can say that it used pin-point, surgical accuracy to avoid civilian casualties.
Because Edward, even here – there’s a real disconnect regardless of whether it’s intentional or not.
There will be people who won’t want me to bring up this information at work, but I am. I’ll bring it all out.
To The Hague.
With difficulty. Generators help. For stabilising a badly injured patient there is enough. Anything else such as my specialism there is almost nothing. The clinic I run is outside of Baghdad and is funded from Islamic religious taxes we get nothing from the green zone government.
Is Maryam still with us?
ET, just because people don’t comment about some of your links, I expect most of us read them. You are one of the commenters I really respect.
Big Mitch – we are now bombing residential neighborhoods in Baghdad. We no longer even pretend that these are surgical strikes (sic) we simply label the children killed “insurgents”
I highly recommend reading Lurch at Main and Central on this point (see link in post)
No disrespect intended for my fellow commenters, please!!
I don’t know if this has been mentioned so here goes. “Tweety Bird’ Mathews has recently returned to his nest after a coast to coast trip to none other than the Bohemian Grove gathering in the redwoods of California. Wow, to be and insect on the scalp of that bird for a day.
Loo Hoo. @ 163
No qualifying necessary, BTW.
From Digby:
But there seems to be some idea in both left and right quarters that this can’t possibly be true, and even if it were, it doesn’t say anything about the troops as a whole. I don’t get this. Our military is occupying a country in the middle of a violent civil war. The soldiers in this occupation are being deployed over and over again to try to “win” something that isn’t even defined. To my way of thinking it’s a miracle that so many of them are able to keep it together at all. Of course, there are some crazed psychos among them and probably some serious psychological damage among a fair number of others. And because of the macho, group pressure and people like Bush and this author egging them on instead of showing mature leadership, there is little to curb this behavior other than some rather quaint appeals to honor and duty, which must be sounding rather hollow to a lot of them at this point.
Maryam:
Do the generators provide refrigeration for medicine and for food? Do you have laboratory capability? What about radiology services?
Are there any nurses left?
What types of cases do you most often treat?
Maryam @ 159
This is simply a question: Why would expect anything from the Green Zone gov’t?
Siun @ 141
Siun,
I am doing my very best to take that in, and I think everyone here right now is. But I still believe that you intended this to be a dialogue. An exchange of views. Just because I disagree with Fern or respond to Dr Maryam with something other than “you’re right, I’m such an evil person…” doesn’t mean that I am not taking this in “in a very direct and human way.”
If this is not the time to try to find common ground, to offer comfort to Dr Maryam by saying that not all Americans are like those boiling her countrymen in their own blood, so be it.
But we don’t let the Wingnut Right’s blanket generalizations about Democrats or those of us who are against this war go unchallenged. Whether or not I can influence Dr Maryam’s view of Americans, I won’t let her blanket hatred of me go unchallenged, either.
Diva
I treat cases like this
Maryam,
Thank you for joining us at this awkward (for you) time, and for your candor. I appreciate your insights and information about one of the terrible consequences of the occupation of your country. I am deeply ashamed of the invasion, deeply ashamed of the occupation, and deeply sorry for the violence that our leaders have inflicted on the Iraki people. Most of us reject the imperial pretensions of our government, and would like to pull our troops out of Irak immediately, the sooner the better.
My sincere apologies for the war crimes that our leaders have inflicted on your people.
Bob in
HI WIAZMaryam – thank you for joining us this evening and for speaking true.
I am certain that you have given many here a lot to think about and hopefully to take action on.
And I do hope that we will at the least help by keeping donations going to the Red Crescent.
My thanks to you for your time and willingness to speak with us.
And thanks to your hosts for making this possible.
Maryam @ 170
Oh my goodness!
This is such a tragedy.
Maryam,
I am deeply sorry for what is being done to the people of your country. I know the people here on this site are doing everything they possibly can to stop this war. Is there something we can do for you?
Maryam, thank you for spending this time with us…do you forsee war between Iraq and Turkey after Turkey invades Northern Iraq following the inevitable American withdrawal? Do you think Iraq will fight the Turks, or help them against the Kurds?
Maryam, thank you for sharing your time with us tonite. I have learned a great deal from you. Please return to write with us when it is safe. Blessings.
TeddySanFran @ 176
I thank you as well. Thank you for your honesty. I pray for your safety and that of all Iraqis. I am ashamed of my government.
Maryam @ 170
You have to know there are no words for what was done to that baby or to ease any anguish. That’s despicable.
RonD and folks who have asked about Turkey and Kurdistan: There are currently 200,000 Turkish troops on the border and they have been bombarding some Northern Iraqi locations – at the same time the PKK (who seem to have american weapons though how direct the supply is is unclear) have been bombarding Turkey and Iran for a while.
Turkish papers have been asking whether Turkey would attack before or after their election – well, the election is finished as of today.
Maryam @ 159
Maryam,
A friend of mine is a gynecologist who donates time at a hospital in Kabul. Her description of conditions there have given me an idea of what you must be dealing with, but because of the violence, your situation is even worse. I am truly thankful for the dedication of people like you. And I am sorry for the things my government is doing that make your job more difficult.
Bob in
HI WIAZMy short answer to that is that is between us the Kurds and the Turks. The KRG only exists because of America. They will have a choice. Sit down and cut a deal with us, the Turks, and the Iranians, or face savage reprisals. The Iranians allow the Turkish army to cross into Iran in as large numbers as they wish if they are in pursuit of peshmerga that has been the case for more than a year.
Shokran, Dr. Maryam.
Rabena maaki.
Maryam, thankyou for the insights. We have been bombing our own country for decades with depleted uranium off the coast of Washington State. God speed the end of this occupation.
Thank you, Siun. My question was driven by wondering whether an American withdrawal would give Iraq some respite, or serve simply as a bridge into the next war.
Thank you for your time and opening our eyes, Maryam.
sorry, this is bullshit………
we’re tryin’ to find out how to help, and being chastised for causing the problem……….
ok, maryam, we want to know, how do we help you??????????
i can’t thing of a way more clearer to put it to you……….we WANT TO HELP HOW DO WE DO THAT????????????
we know you’re angry, we would be too, but we aren’t the ones that brought it upon you, we are the ones that want to help, so, put your anger at our government aside, lay it out there, what can we do?
Maryam @ 170
Maryam:
What you are doing for your patients is remarkable, courageous and I admire you. Please turn all of your anger into energy to continue to communicate what the conditions are. And also tell of the needs.
The anger that you have is powerful; your patients need it transformed into their healing. I wish for you to use it to find some peace somewhere just for yourself.
Take away that now more Americans are trying to learn and to understand; that is a powerful thing you did. Use the anger to send your story, clear and true, so that many more will begin to learn and to understand.
I write about nursing. I will continue to write about nurses in Irak as I can learn about the conditions and stories.
Thank you for conversing with us.
I am so sorry. I wish for you, peace.
Maryam I admire your strength, and am ashamed what has happened. As a human I can only weep, so little is seen in this country of what is happening there. My interest is not just in seeing this end is more than stopping this horror, but for a rather selfish one as well I was an archaeologist/anthropologist and had many friends that worked in the region and now that my useful life here is ended I wanted to volunteer to help assist the long road ahead in peservation of your past. My guess is that like so much of the world is now closed to me because of what my country has done.
dmac @ 185
Whether we want to accept it or not, we ARE part of the problem. It’s how we affect change that will set us apart – if at all.
The way to help is to donate via the Red Crescent – they are the only organization still able to function (though at great cost in lives) in Iraq.
Understand that any other “help” from americans is not welcome in Iraq – with rather good reason.
dmac @ 185
Whoa Nellie. I can deal with a few strong words from a doctor that has seen the horrors of an unjust war. Buck up, give her some room and back off on the language there, partner.
Think about it, ok.
Maryam’s comments put into perspective how little we are really doing. Every minute that I stay seated on my couch in my comfortable living room I am facilitating another Iraqi death.
dmac @ 185
Sometimes doing nothing is better than all the other alternatives. “Can do” attitude is often a big problem in the U.S.A. My interpretation of what Maryam was saying is that it’s their country and their problem, and we should just butt out, no matter whether our intentions are good or evil. (Remember her statement about her facility taking no money from occupiers.) Contribute to the Red Crescent, and work to impeach W & Vice. We have plenty of problems in our own house that are our business to fix.
Siun @ 189
You know, Siun, I can hardly imagine a day when we’ll EVER be forgiven for this murderous debacle.
Siun, thanks for putting it succinctly. That’s whatI was trying to say in 192.
The problem in Irak is the presence of the invaders. It is not possible to even begin to reconstruct until that problem is solved. The violence is because the American invader is there. Not despite it. If as you claim, you want to help, then you tackle the root problem. Which is that your troops are in our country. Until then the violence will escalate. The attacks are to make the country ungovernable and they are working.
Wordsmith – I do not think we will be forgiven and I do not think we should forgive ourselves.
I know that many of us have “good intentions” but as marymccurnin said, every moment an Iraqi dies because we did not stop this.
Wordsmith @ 189
Wordsmith:
I think we are all trying to accept that we and our country are part of the problem. Asking someone like Dr Maryam what concrete thing or action would help them does not mean that we don’t accept that.
I don’t advocate a Rethug-style “moving on” that means sweep the past under the rug and let me have a do over. But I also don’t see how rending our garments and going around in sackcloth and ashes, and chanting “I am an evil American” affects any change at all.
Not that you said it did. My point is still that both you and dmac have a valid point.
Diva
Thank you, Siun, for bringing us an opportunity to hear from an Iraqi that which we are not permitted to hear about from our government. Thank you, Maryam, for telling us that which we find painful to learn but must know.
Late Nite is up.
Siun @ 197
Very interesting, this desire for absolution.
Siun @ 197
I decided last week after the filibuster bullshit that just like with my sobriety, every day I do something and work at ending this goddamned war. For instance, isn’t that what Cindy Sheehan is about in her way?
wordsmith says0″Whether we want to accept it or not, we ARE part of the problem. It’s how we affect change that will set us apart – if at all.”
you are missing what i was trying to say……..completely……….that’s what i was saying in all of my posts……i even posted one twice….go back and read them….that’s why i say bullshit……..this is not a venting forum, even for iraqis, this is a forum to create change, how to do it, what needs to be done………..so, tell us maryam, what do you need us to do????????????????
already donated to red crescent………what else should i do?
i didn’t order troops to invade iraq, did you?
enough of the bullshit, what do you need maryam, and what can we do?
Fern @ 200
Very human, I’d say.
Are you saying you’re above wanting absolution, Fern? Should I not want forgiveness and absolution for what I have allowed my country to do in my name?
I challenge us all to consider, just try, to write “I need to.” I’m probably hypersensitive, but all this “we need to accept…” without a clear statement that the the poster is actively including themselves in that “we” is making me see high horses everywhere. And that gets my back up.
Diva
Funnydiva2002 @ 198
It’s not an affront. It’s how I see it. Until it ENDS, we are all responsible.
Thank you, Dr. Maryam, for giving up your sleep to talk to us here. All Americans need to hear the truth.
Siun @ 197
And…
What do you think is the best, feasible thing that I myself can do about that, Siun?
What ways have you found to make your good intentions matter?
Diva
dmac, she does not want our help. All she wants from Americans is for them to get the fuck out of her country. She did not ask for donations, Siun did.
Isn’t tomorrow Impeach Cheney Day? Call your Rep – get him to support HR 333 – I think we need 4 more to sign on, is that right?
Maryam will have to leave us now – and hopefully she will get a chance at some rest.
Thank you.
To our hostess. Siun you have spoken with my nephew Mohammed Ibn Laith. How would you describe him?
maryam at 196 says-”The problem in Irak is the presence of the invaders. It is not possible to even begin to reconstruct until that problem is solved. The violence is because the American invader is there. Not despite it. If as you claim, you want to help, then you tackle the root problem. Which is that your troops are in our country. Until then the violence will escalate. The attacks are to make the country ungovernable and they are working.”
many are aware of this reality……….getting it across to our leaders is another thing………
SeamusD @ 207
How much more succint does it need to be, dmac?
ah … Your nephew Maryam is one of the most astute and amazing young men I have every encountered. I look forward with hope to a day when he and his generation can live in the Iraq that they desire.
Maryam @ 210
Thank you, Doctor, for getting up in the middle of the night for this heart-to-heart confrontation. It was invigorating. Fight the good fight, Maryam.
Thank you Maryam, you are the first Iraqi I have ever communicated with. I wish it would have been different for us. But I will think of you and pray for your safety and an end to this madness.
RG
seamus, i get your point, do you get mine?
if John Kerry hadn’t snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in 2004 the U.S. would be out of Iraq by now.
Wordsmith @ 204
Wordsmith,
I think you’re telling me that you weren’t criticizing anyone, just re-iterating your POV?
I figured you were. I’m sorry if it sounded like I was discounting what you said or attacking you. If I ever come across that way, you have my permission to tell me to take a time out to contemplate an attitude adjustment. I like to think I’m OK with saying “I’m sorry”, but sometimes I’m only human and rather resistant to that.
Yes. Until it’s “over”, I and you, and everyone is part of the problem. What I’m finding paralyzingly depressing right now is that even a complete withdrawal of our troops will not mean it’s “over.” And even worse, this awful war will poison anything I, as an American, could do to help rebuild. And suspect it would be a very BAD idea to use any of my Arab friends as a conduit.
See ya upstairs? I’ll stick around here, too, for awhile.
Diva
dmac – We need to force our bastardized Congress to DO ITS DUTY, find its moral bearings and its conscience, and GET our imperial army OUT OF IRAQ. We are, and have been, trying to get Congress to do that, with slight success to date, as you know. We must press on, nevertheless, despite the fact that even Harry Reid still tells America that Americans can and should decide what the future of the nation of Iraq will look like (until our forces finally take too many casualties, at least).
And now we can do it with a memory of the rage, despair, and fury of one Iraqi eyewitness to our savage occupation ringing in our ears, thanks to Siun and Maryam.
There are no words, but we must – because we have no choice – forge on, in whatever way we can, to END THE OCCUPATION. As Maryam rightly says @ 196, first things first:
Possible new U.S. military campaign to earn civilian support in Ir*q and Afgan:
Hitch your wagon to our star. We are the nation of Katrina. We will look out for you.
We have kick-ass intelligence. And we are very truthful to citizens and civilians about our intelligence.
We are the nation that will give you less infrastructure than you had before invasion.
We are the nation that will cause your educated to flee to other countries. There will be so much brain drain your heads will spin. Your culture may have to reinvent the wheel for itself. Disclaimer: Collateral damage could possibly occur. This could involve children, women, men, stock animals and household pets.
This is his reality. This is what America has created for his generation:
When I heard the bomb explode last Saturday the first thing I did was telephone my father. But there was no reply. Again and again and again I tried to phone him. My fingers hurt I stabbed them onto the buttons on my phone so hard. I fell onto the floor and prayed please let him not be dead. Please let it be that he died quick if he is dead.
in the time since he wrote that:
His brother Hussein Ibn Laith was killed by a bomb as he ran with his rescue team to the site of a bombing.
His parents were killed in the Arba’in massacres.
His younger brother was wounded in the Al Qhilani bombing as was Mohammed himself and his sister.
Aged 16 Mohammed is the head of his family.
I will let him speak about forgiveness:
Let Us Understand One Another You And I
dmac @ 216
Sure I did, and that is why I am here, too. But do not expect gratitude from those people whose lives and countries we have destroyed, when we finally do depart. It’s human to want forgiveness, but I don’t think we are going to get much, nor do I think we deserve it.
Maryam, as you opened our conversation with his words, you have offered us a very fitting ending.
Thank you again for your time and your truth.
Why did the image not come through?
No matter this is the picture he showed:
dmac @ 216
I get yours, dmac….I think we’re beyond Funnydiva2002 @ 218
Don’t apologize; it’s not necessary.
Are ya kidding!? It drives me fucking insane to have to sit here, anywhere and not do something physical to the jackasses that perpetuated this fucking fiasco. I damn near had a ‘nervous breakdown’ in the run-up to this crap and it is STILL GOING ON!
You know when it finally kicked in again, because I’ve been almost despondent?When Gonzales came to Boise to discuss our “gang problem.” We don’t have a fucking gang problem. There are two cities in this valley that do – Boise isn’t one of ‘em – did Gonzales go there? No…now why is that? It’s the fucking disconnect…..it’s the buying into the lying – IT IS THE LYING.
WHAT HAPPENED TO MY COUNTRY?! That’s what I want to know. That’s all I want to know.
hate breeds hate. To some extent it is that simple.
This has been an intense discussion, and I appreciate all who have contributed.
Yep, hate is a powerful tool; however it won’t solve a thing.
Just like ‘oddmommy’ said – “hate breeds hate.”
The ole’ “an eye for an eye until everyone is blind” – yeah, that’ll work.
Maryam is off to get some rest – she has a lot of work to do during her trip.
I’ll be here for a bit longer and Teddy has a fresh post up top.
I wasn’t able to be here for very long. Just back from helping the kids.
Maryam, this has been a good conversation. I am sorry for what we are doing to your people and your land. I started visiting Gorilla’s Guides a few weeks ago. Now that I’ve read more about what you are enduring, I’m almost at a loss for words, which is rare for me. I can only promise to do what I can.
Thank you.
Maryam I learned a painful lesson from reading the intense and poignant writing titled “What will we talk of today you and I”.It made me ashamed of my emotions toward the horror that we,as Americans,have slashed through Irak’s soul.
We have no right to wallow in angst.It’s total bullshit.WE do not carry out the dead.WE do not get tattoos so our loved ones can identify our corpses.WE are comfortable in our disconnect,even as we feel shame and horror.
There is no more room for talk.There is nothing that can be said to make this right.
It is time for all these American emotions to turn to action.
I understand that now is not the time to ask for forgiveness.
I will work to bring the Red Crescent into my small community’s awareness.I pledge to be the tiny spark in a dark and deadly American Enterprise.I’ve protested in the streets,I’ve signed the permits to hold No More War Rallies as a private citizen.It is NOT ENOUGH.And never was.
maryam;
just know that there are those of us who so don’t want you to hate us, because we most definitely don’t hate you…….quite the opposite……..we put our money into red crescent, because it is the only thing we CAN do……..we write our congress members, which is all we can do on that front………
i want you to understand, if there is more we can do, we will do it, in a minute……..i would take someone from your country into my home, even though i have a limited income, in a minute, i would do that……..
your hatred of americans is misplaced……..our government ordered troops into your country-americans didn’t do that to you, our government did……against our wishes…….
oddmommy @ 226
Amen, odmommy, amen.
God help me not to hate. God bless me someday with someone who can say “your country devastated mine, my family died and suffered because of it. I am angry. I will always be angry. I hate what your country did, and what your soldiers did. But I can see you as a flawed human being. As a woman who also loves her family.”
Sometimes it’s much too soon to ask forgiveness. Sometimes it’s too soon to stop hating, or to see individual people instead of Evil Ones. But perpetual hatred? Be careful. That sort of blind, perpetual, eternal hatred is what always fuels more wars, more suffering. It is very likely to make the righteous hater someone who doesn’t deserve to even ask for forgiveness. It’s all too likely to make the righteous hater perpetually hated by someone else, who has suffered needlessly at their hands.
Diva
Maryam @ 196
It is a rare opportunity for us to hear this perspective in our country. I hope you can understand that it is very difficult for the average American to get anything but propaganda out of our national news — print, radio or TV. Even more ‘balanced’ international news networks don’t provide adequate perspectives from Iraqis working and living in Iraq.
I wish you peace and will continue reading.
{{{{{Siun}}}}
This is becoming one of the very most important threads here, and I’m trying to make sure I can share time with you each Sunday here. Thank you.
Ed*ard Teller @ 234
This is a Sunday thing?
Wordsmith @ 236
Siun has been covering humanitarian subjects here at 1800 hours PST for the past couple of months at least.
Siun – can’t be an easy balancing act here trying to say something strong enough to get the truth across but not so strong that no one can hear you.
Dr.Maryam has to know how close our nation’s last election was, how low our nation’s approval rating of Bush is, IMO, that when Bush speaks he does not speak for most Americans, and how one dictator, party, or president can defile a nation. Most Americans are not of the same mind as Bush. Also, by law Americans must pay taxes. These taxes are given to the war by a very few American politicians. We are not a true democracy in America. We are a republic that sinks or swims based on a good or bad president, and the votes of very few men and women in congress. The average American hates this war and never wanted it.
ET – thank you.
I did not know until shortly before the post went live that Maryam would be able to join us. She is someone I admire and value and I am astonished at the gift of her time.
dmac @ 231
Thank you for that raw vulnerability.
I, too, want Dr Maryam to not hate me. I need her to know that I, and many of my countrymen, are not evil, never would have even wished this on her, wish we could put it right, and will not return the hatred with hatred (insha’allah.
It’s frustrating to know that that earnest desire is unheard, unacknowledged. That it cannot be taken in under the circumstances, and may never be taken in.
But that doesn’t change the shame I feel, nor the desire to be given a chance to earn something other than hatred.
Diva
Maryam has left. She needs to get some sleep and the trip was difficult.
Thanks Siun we’ve been trying to arrange this for a while.
du
Thank you as well Du for making this possible – and for cooking what I hear was a great dinner!
and special thanks to our mod this evening who did a lovely job.
i couldn’t comment on this post – it was so intense – had i commented it wouldn’t have been a good thing – this war must end!! we americans are too naive when it comes to invasions – dr maryams anger is well-placed – i am sooo angry its terrible!
siun – hats off to you for getting the dr to tell us what exactly is the situation in her country – we get the bushco view – its just going swell there……..dont believe bushco hype!
Thank you, Siun and Dubhaltach, for making this possible.
Since you point it out, S, I too am awed and grateful for Dr Maryam’s time tonight. I hope she got something in return, somehow.
Honest question, not a flame:
Siun, you’re an American? Does Dr Maryam hate you? Do you think she feels you’re the only American not deserving of her hatred? You are, of course, one-of-a-kind, as you prove regularly here at the Lake. It just really stung to be in the same hatred boat as the worst of worst who are actively prosecuting this war. I think I understand, but it stung.
Diva
Juslin – Maryam offered through friends. I was just honored that she would offer.
Diva – you ask an interesting question.
We – as American especially – are very self centered. Maryam deals day in and day out with the results of American aggression. And the reality is that we have not stopped that aggression. So my feeling is that rather than focusing on “does Maryam hate me” we should focus on how we can stop that aggression. Our feelings are not the important thing here, at least in my mind. The most important things are those children who have lost so much and lose more each day.
People who face the results of this occupation every day have no patience for our very american angst – they want action. I hope we find a way to step up to that.
You know – when I was in the military I was stationed in Augsburg. There was no military housing for the women assigned to our hospital so we lived on the economy. Regardless of why we were there, I felt like an occupying force. Even though I wore hospital whites, I rarely wore my uniform to and from the hospital. For over a year I bought my bread at a bakery around the corner from my apartment. The woman was never rude, just curt. Believe me, I got that it was because I was an American. I never forced it, never made any attempt to soothe or smooth over, never stopped buying her bread either. One day at work we had such a monstrous & ferocious day that I just wore my uniform home, and on the way I stopped for bread. I will never forget the look on her face….her face broke into a grin, she began nodding and talking, and from then on she was very engaging. The guy across the street who owned a small store said it was because she saw me now as a healer rather than a warrior.
You cannot break into someone’s home in the middle of the night, break their furniture, scatter and strewn their belongings, food, and other neccessities all over, murder their relatives, their children, destroy their infrastructure so their basic needs aren’t even being met, and depict their religious leaders and their religion as the bane of G*d and not expect some kind of retribution.
Wordsmith – well said.
Thank you, Siun.
Yes, I agree, the take-home should be: make the gov’t get us the @$@$#% outta there. NOW!
I’m not sure the self-centeredness is so uniquely American. The angst? yes, probably. It’s always much easier to see these things from the outside. There are aspects of Arab and Chinese and other national self-centeredness that I also find hard to understand, and often have very little patience for.
You’re right, my feelings aren’t the important thing here. They’re real, but, no, why should anyone who lives every day with this occupation have any time to help me deal with them. Ludicrous. Although to feel mocked for having them at all isn’t that great either. I’m an American, and, damnit, I _should_ feel bad and ashamed of my part in this occupation. It’s those who don’t care that others suffer, that don’t care if they’re hated that should be a real focus of hatred.
I will find some $$ to send the Red Crescent as soon as I can. I hate that BushCo has basically poisoned the well of average American goodwill. Average Americans are still extremely wealthy compared to those in the ME, but any direct help will, at best, be rejected. There are resources and goodwill here among us Americans, but the (understandably) undiscriminating hatred will make it very difficult to get it to those who need it.
OK, I’m off upstairs. I look forward to your next discussion.
Diva
Diva – I look forward to continuing the conversation.
And thank you for donating to Red Crescent. They do amazing work.
Now that I know you’re here on Sundays, I’ll make a point of being here. I need my more fires under my ass….truly, I do.
And I’ll just bet you thought I was a sailor! :)
Some good work here tonight. And, while it’s not my place to be proud of this community, I am anyway. A lot of groups would have lashed back.
If Maryam had said I forgive all the good people at FDL and it’s really all those other bad Americans that are to blame then her message would be too easily ignored. I know this group is trying to do all that we can to end this madness, but I think we are all more motivated than ever by hearing from Maryam tonight. Thank you Maryam.
thank you siun for reminding me over at moonofalabama, i have to remeber to come visit on sunday nights especially.
i made it thru 1/2 the comments so excuse me for jumping in before reading all of the thread..
genocide. that is what i think is happening.
absolutely. unfortunately this is a fact. fortunately we have other people here, and other values. it does wrench my heart everyday our voices don’t matter, because they don’t.
well.. in terms of the representatives of these parties, meaning those in power, those that pull the strings……..of course. however, we have the illusion, as americans that we are the parties, we aren’t. i really don’t know how our voices can make a difference. i know we can be heard, i know they hear us, but the reality is, we have no control.
the corporate juggernaut is in control. they control elections..media…war..military.. we are screaming in the wind. and yes, the soldiers you encounter are part of us. they represent us.
bummer. genocide. massive bummer. sorry hardly cuts it.
thanks maryam. in solidarity. i wish, i wish, i could do more. we are not in control of our government. the more we know, the more we realize we are in a fascist state.
234
it is only rare if you only listen to the propaganda. this is a total no brainer. maryam speaks absolutely common sense. bottom line, we need the oil. it doesn’t matter to the designers of this ‘new middle east map’ how many people die or suffer. wake up, we’re on a path that only goes in one direction. it’s revolution or else.
CTuttle @ 67
CTuttle @ 67
We’ve had many chances to mitigate or outright halt such harm, and we as a nation failed to do so. While people died, our Congress played political games with the White House, using the lives of not just Iraqis, but Americans, Canadian, English, and other coalition forces as pieces in that game. We knew what was happening, and we had a good idea that we knew why it was happening, and instead of, say, voting Bush out of office on 2004 or threatening enough Congresscritters with explusion from their precious jobs, we just let the propaganda wash over us and went on with our lives.
“Reported such atrocities?” To whom? Yes, you probably would have reported them to your CO. Who would’ve been told that the men handling the interrogation are not to be disturbed, and that you should be restationed elsewhere. Or that you should just keep mum while your higher-ups spin it to keep you out of as little jail time as possible. That’s what’s happened already, in that very situation – why would yours be any different?
Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands have died. Thousands have been tortured for years. Tens of thousands remain captive in camps. All because we’re afraid. We’re afraid that someone might violate that envelope we call “American life” again – and that fear has been used as a weapon against us to ensure that we buy into the absolute horror the Bush administration has been pushing in Afghanistan, Iraq, and who knows where else?
It’s hard to take the high moral ground here. Of course she’s angry and contemptuous. We’ve obliterated her country – even if we pulled out now, it’ll take years or even decades to recover. It’s hard for me to claim empathy from my cushy chair and keyboard, while she’s mopping up our victims. It’s going to take actions, not words, over a long period of time to reverse that open anger & contempt – remember, we knew what was going on during the 2004 election and we still voted Bush back into office! We still supported “the surge!” Our Congress was ineffective at preventing even more bloodshed because we were ineffective in telling them that it was important to us that they stop it. In fact, we tacitly approved of what was happening, because as long as it wasn’t happening to us, it was palatable. We claimed that we would be liberating the Iraqi people – then we killed more of them in half a decade than Saddam did during his entire reign. And we did it impersonally. “Just another hadji running a roadblock – shoot them.” We’ve destroyed archeological sites that describe the very history of mankind on this planet – and crushed them up so we could make tank roads. We’ve actually run the culture of Iraq under our tanks – we’ve looted, we’ve pillaged, we’ve raped, we’ve killed, and so far, we’ve held very damn few folks accountable for it. But, we just look at the reports, shake our heads, and keep drinking our latte. We’ve watched the opposition go from “troops loyal to Saddam” to “former Revolutionary Guards” to “insurgents loyal to the Baa’thists” to “insurgents loyal to Shi’a” to “insurgents loyal to Al’Qaida” to “Al’Qaida” right before our eyes, and we’ve just shrugged our shoulders and gone along with it. We know we’re being lied to, but as long as the lie doesn’t affect too many of our every day lives, we’re OK with it. Every time someone’s spoken up about, maybe, suggesting that we possibly pull our troops out, they’ve been blasted as “unAmerican” and “unpatriotic” and “they’re not supporting the troops” or “they’re not supporting the President.” So we shrug, go back to our jobs, and hope that the economy doesn’t collapse over paying for the war effort. Or that our boys & girls come home with their shields and not on them. Or that there won’t be another terrorist attack because, if they thought they had reason before, well, we’ve given them far more reason now to hate us.
Meanwhile, people still die. Iraqis kill Americans, Americans kill Iraqis. The dead don’t care about politics – it’s a Boolean for them. They would rather be alive, but now they’re dead. It’s not a switch you can unflip with a debate. All you can do is stop flipping the switch.
If you don’t like the broad brush with which we’re being painted, don’t regret the atrocities that caused such damning painting. Do something about it. Vote for folks who won’t continue this madness. March to get it to stop. Make sure that your voice is heard, loud and clear, to anyone & everyone that has the power to stop it. Make sure this never happens again. Ever.
If all of you commenters have not seen the pictures of what is going on there now, and what’s been going on there since the Bush/Cheney war began or even what was planned and why by the PNAC Gang, before now, then I don’t know what to say to you. If you need, at this late date, to be guilted and verbally abused into action…. well, I must say I’m completely astounded. I thought fdl was already a progressive liberal site and all the good people here were already doing everything in their power to end what should have never been started. I honestly thought FDL was at least that.
Abuse and hate and more violence as self promotion and a fundraising tool: Don’t think I’ve seen that before. Oh wait, yes, I have. I fight against it all the time. I won’t stop when I see, what I thought was “my side”, doing it to my own side. Huh? Makes no sense at all. I am not and will never be on the side of anyone proposing more violence. Ever.
dmac – your “bullshit” call was spot on.
So, bring your violent threats and heavy handed guilt tactics, just like last week. You cannot harm me. After all the years of “terr terr fear fear” I’ve endured… NO. You cannot harm me.
Ah I see myrtle is back to her previous trollish trick of turning up and doing her it’s all about me me me me me me routine. Strange that a site that the inventer of trexing as one of the authors doesn’t remember how to do it :-)
Myrtle June said, on July 17th, 2007 at 3:35 am
Hiya dinosaur :-)