[Please welcome our guest author, Aaron Barlow, and thank him for joining us today. As always, we ask our readers to confine their discussion in this comment thread to the book and its related topics. The previous thread will do just fine for other social fun and frivolity, or other unrelated topic discussion. Thanks!]
I first met Aaron Barlow, one of the pioneers of ePluribus Media, before my FDL days when I joined with him in some coverage of the Guckert/Gannon National Press Club appearance. Aaron struck me then as incredibly knowledgeable and gently personable, and when I learned of the publication of his book, I was more than eager to bring him to our community for a Book Salon.
The Rise of the Blogosphere is a serious work of research, outlining the historical context for the emergence of blogs and citizen based journalism as part of the contemporary national conversation. Perhaps primarily targeted to students of journalism in formal training programs, it’s lessons nevertheless are relevant and interesting in their own right to anyone engaged in this blog world, either as a writer or as a reader and participant.
Rather than provide a more complete review or summary of such a meaty and engaging piece of work, I’d like to offer some snap summaries, impressions and questions for Aaron, especially with this particular community at Firedoglake in mind. But first, let me offer a quick sense of the sweep of Aaron’s research.
Aaron begins in the early, pre-Revolutionary stage of American history, and notes the emergence of pamphlets by people like Tom Paine, and the writings of others like Ben Franklin, who pioneered a new kind of populist discussion of news and events peppered throughout with opinion and overt interpretation.
There was no pretension of a lack of a point of view in those days, and writers, even those operating under pseudonyms (a common practice), developed their own following and their own audiences using what were often their own unique voices. In some cases, more than one person operated using the same pseudonym, a practice not adopted in the modern blogosphere, but one which, Aaron notes, foreshadows the emergence of the group blog as we know it today, whereby one blog site will include a number of writers whose combined perspectives form a kind of coherent world view, allowing for much more content to be delivered to an eager audience.
As the historical review proceeds, Aaron takes the reader through an understanding of the raucous politics and media inclusion in politics of the early constitutional period of American history, through the emergence of a stand alone press, on through to the development of a professional consciousness considered as “journalism” (though journalism has never strictly become a profession with a credentialing system and code of ethics, the way, for example, law or medicine have become). From there, Aaron moves on to discuss how the culture of professional journalism evolved under commercial pressure to become a kind of simulacrum of genuine public discussion, whereby media and journalistic celebrities functioned more to serve the corporate good than the public good, constituting a culture and social class virtually indistinguishable from the people in power and public life whose insider machinations began to compel them. Coverage developed according to story lines devoid of relevance to the impact of actual policies impacting the mass of people’s lives, and the people, sensing the news had become more irrelevant to their own concerns, began to hold journalists in ever greater contempt, often tuning the news out entirely.
Though some notable models of what I’ll call “un-access” journalism emerged, embodied in the work of I. F. Stone, it was not until the emergence of message board communities and their connection to the World Wide Web that the public debate began to become occupied by the public again. At this point in the book, Aaron’s narrative begins to include the first person pronoun “I,” and the effect is, I must say, rather liberating to the reader: at least, I found it so. As Aaron writes:
For a news media unused to having to react to a medium becoming as powerful as their own but completely outside the controls they had grown up with, professionally speaking, the blogs have been a vexation, at best. But they are the one the journalists will eventually have to learn to live with.
Oh, and while I’m quoting, let me bring out another (the hardest part about writing about a book like this is deciding what to quote, with so many juicy bits from which to choose):
The news media have been loath to recognize the fact of their own symbiotic relation to politics, imagining that they could cover politics without being involved in politics, that they did not, in fact, feed off politics. Choices made in the coverage, however, always reflect a political orientation of some sort or another; it’s impossible to report on politics in a truly objective fashion. Politics is not like a plane crash, where the observer can stand aside and record the event. Politics (and war, which can be seen as politics at its most brutal) isn’t a single event, but a panoply of connected actions, each relating to all the others, but in different ways and with various impact. Just by deciding which of these events is important and which to leave aside, the journalist is involved in a political decision. In addition, the press becomes a player whether it wills it or not, with press coverage itself changing the actions “on the ground.” By their presence, in other words, the members of the press change the nature of the decisions politicians make.
It is in this context, as Aaron describes, that the new, sometimes raucous, highly variegated online news, opinion, discussion and research movement has begun to blossom. The conceit of neutrality is precisely that, a conceit, and a defense against honesty. In my own psychological training, we traced how the earlier conceit of Freudian psychologists that a therapist could be a “blank slate,” exerting no influence on the therapeutic interaction, was recognized to be false. In fact, professional therapists understand now that this was not only false, but dangerous, as it inculcated a kind of ideological movement within the profession immune to self-awareness, the result being that therapists could with rationalized justification and little accountability act out their worst, most disowned unconscious impulses on their vulnerable, unsuspecting patients. Psychology had to change because the old model no longer served either the public interest or the interests of the profession, but professional journalists seem not yet to have made that transition.
With all that as a kind of backdrop, just a taste of the book itself, let me turn now to some questions to kickoff some further discussion in the comment section.
First, Aaron, given your historical review, what are the nearest antecedents to this site and community? I’m curious about what history may have to teach us. We’re undeniably a media site, engaging in research, even book publication (Marcy Wheeler’s Anatomy of Deceit), and yet, simultaneously, we’re an activist site and community hub. Organically, these things are rather inseparable for us, and that seems to me to be a throwback to an earlier era, based on your work.
Second, since I’m a forward thinking sort, and interested in helping to make this community self-sustaining, what developmental hurdles and cautionary tales might you relate about the ways that financial pressure can warp a given outlet’s mission? We hope to be able to support this site through some simultaneous model of voluntary reader sponsorships and some greater advertising support, but many communities will struggle with these same needs to create sustainability. I know you’re not a business consultant, but what are some of history’s lessons, based on your review? How can we ensure that we will not become like the establishment media outlets whose failures we have emerged in part to correct?
Finally, you observe in your book that, to the established journalistic community, “blogs” still seem to represent a large undifferentiated mass, rather than a wide spectrum of communities and degrees of reliability. We certainly came face to face with this impression when interacting with establishment media journalists during our coverage of the Libby trial. You write, “Two types of bloggers understand how best to manipulate this ocean, one being composed of people genuinely interested in discovery and the other of those interested in appearance and surface justification of prior belief.” You mention this at the outset of the chapter examining the Dan Rather Texas memo story, which emerged from the right wing online.
Though, currently, the lefty blogosphere seems more interested in genuine discovery, while the right wing has been working to prop up established power, I would expect the temptation to retreat from discovery into performing mere public relations for potentates will grow for the left as the lefty political movement gains more power. Human nature is not repealed based on political affiliation. You outline some codes of conduct for citizen journalists that I would invite you to discuss further in the comments, and in closing, I’d like to recount them. They are drawn, as you cite, from The Project for Excellence in Journalism’s “Statement of Shared Purpose”:
1. Journalism’s first obligation is to the truth.
2. Its first loyalty is to citizens.
3. Its essence is a discipline of verification.
4. Its practitioners must maintain an independence from those they cover.
5. It must serve as an independent monitor of power.
6. It must provide a forum for public criticism and compromise.
7. It must strive to make the significant interesting and relevant.
8. It must keep the news comprehensive and proportional.
9. Its practitioners must be allowed to exercise their personal conscience.
As I write these now, from my experience in covering the Libby trial, I can imagine that the establishment journalists I met would consider that they do all these things consistently as they practice journalism, and yet, their failures (demonstrated, in fact, on the witness stand) have led to the rise of the blogosphere. Clearly, these establishment journalists (”journalists?”) do not apply and interpret these principles in quite the way we here do. But that, I suppose, just brings us full circle back to the extensive work you’ve done in your book, and in that spirit I’d invite you to talk a bit more about how we sustain our interest and commitment to discovery as a movement, even as progressive politics (let us hope!) gain ascendancy over time.
Please join me, everyone, in welcoming Aaron Barlow.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Matthew Kerbel, Netroots: Online Progressives and the Transformation of American Politics
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Eric Boehlert, Bloggers on the Bus: How the Internet Changed Politics and the Press
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dave Cullen: Columbine
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Ryan Grim: This Is Your Country On Drugs
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Swanson, Daybreak: Undoing the Imperial Presidency and Forming a More Perfect Union





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Hello!
Howdy!
I can’t wait to read this book.
Hello, Laura, and welcome, Aaron!
ZED???
Aaron, I know that you also recently reviewed the book about the AP — Breaking News — after you wrote the Rise of the Blogosphere. Did the AP book change in anyway some of the conclusions you reached in your book on the blogosphere?
Welcome, Aaron!
LOL – oh well – welcome aaron to the lake
Hello. It’s nice to be here. And, yes, I think you are a throwback, one America has been needing since before the Civil War!
Welcome, Aaron, and thanks Pach for the great intro. Aaron I’m glad you spent some time on the pamphleteers. One of the most pernicious “truisms” about the blogosphere I am frequently questioned about is the danger of allowing people to be “anonymous.” I always bring up the pamphleteers and the danger, when you’re challenging power, to people whose insights can be extremely valuable to have their identities known. I think it’s important that the blogosphere allows this personally, rather than a danger.
For myself I spent one day anonymous and went “this’ll never work” but that was a personal thing.
wow – me multi-tasking… on the lake and listening to sam seder – imagine that hehehehehe
Hi, welcome.
Something I’ve been bothered by lately is how much the net neutrality issue parallels the suppression of opinion in, say, Paris and other European capitals in the revolutionary days of the 1840s.
Increased prices for newspapers and pamphlets controlled who had access to info, sort of how increased postal prices here for media will impact magazines like the Nation as opposed to Time or The Economist.
Do you see net neutrality being protected?
Thanks
Not really. I don’t think that the commercial news media is a bad thing, it just should never have become the only thing. It help constrict our ability as citizens to actively participate in public debate. It made us passive observers instead.
I told downstairs, btw.
Hi Aaron! I don’t think I have heard how you happened to choose the blogosphere as the topic of your latest book. I believe you are very passionate about the subject but was there anything else that influenced your choice?
Aaron, how do you see the money flow as impacting the relative roles of blogs and such versus the old msm? I recently reveiwed an article that suggests that many technical journals are going under because their advertisers are moving all their ad budgets to blogs, just to give an example.
For a long time, neither the NYTimes nor Time Magazine had bylines. I think the critics of anonymity are merely scrambling for some way to distinguish themselves from the bloggers–few of who are really anonymous anyway.
when one exercises their personal conscience – does that put their integrity in question? or am i confusing the situation?
I’n not sure that it will be… but the modern axiom, “information wants to be free,” is becoming more powerful every day. Attempts at constriction are failing, and I hope they continue to fail.
How have sites like this affected the way MSM view their role not only in reporting “news”, But the accountability and error correction element thats is part of reforming media?
Don’t tell him, but a fellow named James Guckert is responsible for this book… oh, I forget: he uses the pseudonym “Jeff Gannon.”
I tagged along after SusanG’s call on dKos, asking for people to search for information on Gannon. What I saw impressed me.
At the same time, I happened to be reading a bit of Alexis de Toqueville… and was shocked by how closely his description of American newspapers circa 1830 match the modern blogs.
Howdy, Aaron!! as a fellow ePM community member from the earliest days, I want to congratulate you on the publication of your book, and tell you how effing proud I am of you and by extension, the ePM community!!
Wanted to ask you what your take was of Assignment Zero and Off the Bus…? I have my own take, but I’m dying to hear yours.
The commerical news media has been facing the same problem, and has begun to make their Web operations their central ones, print becoming an adjunct. The technical journals are going to have to do the same thing, finding a new financial model, most likely one based on the Web.
Interesting. As Johnny Carson used to say, “I did not know that!”
To me, it does not. The commercial news media seems to feel otherwise (or did). In a recent book, James Fallows speaks of a question put to reporters in the 19902 about what they would do if they saw American soldiers about to be ambushed–would they warn them? Mike Wallace said he would not. By my way of thinking, he was completely wrong.
JimmyJeff your muse, eh?
Heh.
I don’t think the commercial/professional news media have yet to come to terms with sites like FDL, though they are beginning to try.
Accountability and error correction have been taken away from the commercial news media by sites like FDL and bloggers in general. We, as people, have taken control of that. Look at what happened to Diane Sawyer last week… she was forced to admit she mis-spoke… by us!
It’s been my privilege to participate with you in the Columbia School of Journalism’s Sulzberger Program…would you agree that many in the traditional news have the same passion for getting to the truth as we in the blogs do — once one gets beyond the beltway pundits and what you call the “winchells”?
I used to know that!
What caused them to add the bylines?
I’ve not been paying much attention to Assignment Zero recently, or to its parent New Assignment. I’m not really familiar with Off the Bus, so I can’t speak to it.
As a diehard supporter of decentralization, I’m not a big fan of Assigment Zero, though I am glad Jay Rosen (whom I respect mightily) is trying it. There’s too much control going on.
What I see is a place for amateurs who want to be professionals to go to work on their skills. Those of us who want to remain amateurs, and who don’t seem much advantage in working under the tutelage of professionals, will find little for us at Assignment Zero.
Aaron Barlow >
I`ve said for a long time that Ben Franklin would “get” blogs & the blogosphere immediately
“We the people…” are using this technology to reach way back in our history in a time of extreme of need to solve some very important problems (as you write about in the case of the “traditional” media)
Thanks for your effort !
“Everyday reality now is a complete fiction, manufactured by the media landscape and we operate inside it.” – JG Ballard
found the link about decline in tech media ads, and it’s from SlashDot, not less! woo hoo!
Mr Barlow thank you for your answer, I guess this will be a slow process in changing the media culture from feeling they were the best gate keepers of the message of the day.
Aaron, I just had another thought. How do you see the comparison between the “muckraking” journalists of the Trusts era (which IIRC were instrumental in leading to the Trust-busting of TR and some of the modern journalist tradition) and the role now played by such blogs as TPM and TPMMuckraker?
As a psychologist, I have found that the discipline of self-reflection and on-going group supervision is extremely helpful in monitoring one’s attitudes and biases. I’d like to know, Aaron, what thoughts you have about how the code of conduct for citizen journalists can be perhaps not institutionalized (hard to picture in the oceanic flux of this realm), but at least internalized as essential to the framework of this Great Game.
It’s through the Sulzberger program that I’ve had the privilege to see what the commercial news media are beginning to do. Some of the people there are incredibly smart and able. Let’s hope they can change their profession for the better.
Yes, beyond the beltway pundits and the winchells (those who are really entertainers with a journalism schtick–like Bill O’Reilly), there are plenty in the commercial news media with real enthusiasm. I suspect we will start to see good stuff from them, quite soon.
They will be joining us, in a way, though working in a professional capacity.
Pach, I think you can answer that better than I. You wrote a wonderful piece explaining the culture of the news world (especially in Washington) and its egos for ePluribus Media a few years ago. I’ll try to find a link.
Exactly.
At the start of the book, I suggest that Franklin should be considered the Patron Saint of the blogs.
This is an argument that goes back to the beginning of our Republic. Jefferson was on one side, fighting the gatekeepers, Hamilton on the other, trying to build gates.
John Dewey and Walter Lippmann continued the debate in the 20th century.
Aaron Barlow @ 37
I suspect that in time (and not necessarily all that long a time) Bloggers will be considered professionals and get training in the academic system too. I also suspect the academic system will be profoundly impacted by blogs, wikis, and so forth but that’s another conversation. (Behave, Alfred!)
I rarely frequent the MSM any more. Picked up a copy of Time at the hairdresser’s last week and was shocked–it’s a shadow of its former self. Can’t imagine there’s a business model in that.
I still get the NYTimes delivered weekdays. Gets to my apt door before I wake up & is easier to read in bed while I drink my coffee. Also, gets me access to “select” features online.
Still, I find their articles increasingly irrelevant. The political ones are slanted to their masters inside the beltway, and Juan Cole has more relevant coverage about Iraq in less space than any other single source (also available before I wake up & I read him while my coffee’s brewing).
I read books to get up to speed on topics I don’t know anything about, then find respectable blogs on the subject to keep updated.
Can’t see why anyone needs the MSM at all.
The problem with the muckrakers was sustainability. They were able to survive if the story was big enough and outrageous enough. What I am hoping is that the modern muckrakers, using a new financial model based on the Web, won’t be tempted to just the biggest stories or extinguished by lack of ability to find the backing they need.
althespook >
Cue Wikipedia…
“…Open-mindedness is not a virtue of people who don’t believe anything. It is a virtue of people who know that their beliefs are not absolutely true….” – Reinhold Niebuhr
shooogarp @ 3
I highly recommend it! You can, if you like, follow the link in the main post.
You certainly get to the heart of it!
Community, acceptance, connection… all of these pressure people to conform to some degree. In my next book, Blogging America: The New Public Sphere, I go into this somewhat. But this is what scares the people in power… they see anarchy, if there is no control from the top. Andrew Keen, for example, in his new book, sees it as destroying our culture.
As I am more like Tolstoy, who saw the generals just following their armies from in front, I suspect that all control comes ultimately from the people, not from those they give the job of being the symbols of order.
Aaron Barlow @ 43
I believe Al Gore spoke on this in “The Assault On Reason”, the low entry barriers of the Internet. The cost-versus-revenue ratio for Blogs must be far better than that for a newspaper or magazine simply due to the costs of printing. (I work for a small technical book publishing company, I know far too much about the costs of printing even today…)
I think you are right… but I think there will continue to be a huge and influential amateur contingent.
Brian Lehrer (WNYC, weekdays 10-12) had that jerk on last week who wrote the book about how terrible the web, blogs, and anonymity are. Sez culture is going down the toobz. Do you have any words of wisdom for him?
I was puzzled for a minute, but I’m all cured up now.
eCAHNomics @ 42
Which is why they are becoming more like us!
Aaron Barlow @ 43
Late to the discussion, but thanks, Aaron, Pach and Jane. I’m a nurse blogger, and I must remain under a pseudonym because I advocate very much against mainstream – everything. I advocate for servant leadership, nurses practicing in professional groups as non-employees, but rather under group contracts, use of unions for new markets in contract negotiation, but not umbrella organizations for nurses, single payer universal health, patients as partners instead of as passive recipients of care, etc.
I want to blog as a full time occupation, but nursing doesn’t get much, if anything in the way of advertisers. Suggestions for a different business model?
Aaron Barlow @ 46
The pernicious aspects of all post-industrial political entities have depended on The Big Lie. Iraq is the just the final result of that deadly pathway. What makes Blogs dangerous, IMHO, to the Powers That Be is not anarchy, but the fact that blogs are the ultimate Natural Selection For Information, The Survival Of The Truth. I have watched for over two years as the blogs have developed this ability. ANY lie tossed out now by the MSM is shredded and debunked and the truth clearly shown by the blogosphere, usually in less than 4 hours, although sometimes it can take longer.
If the Powers That Be cannot sell The Big Lie, they cannot govern as they desire. Too bad, so sad….
It is interesting, this top downism you mention.
In chatting with some of the establishment media types during the Libby trial, they seem to have this monolithic view of bloggers as people writing without editors, and therefore, with no accountability to be accurate.
Well, that may be the case if you’re Powerline, or playing to an audience of, well, people with no commitment to inquiry, review and fidelity to facts (the Malkin crew), but there are other places founded on the kind of open source review process that has previously allowed for science and the academic review process to emerge.
I know, Aaron, you spend some time thinking about how applicable the online world is to real research, and frankly, I found myself a little bit of an outsider in the discussion, as I’m not very centered around academics. But then again, I look at what Marcy Wheeler has done, along with others at this site and elsewhere, and I feel as if strong models of fact based research are already evident. ePM does that, of course, as well.
While reviling us every step along the way. Keep repeating: imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
Hi Aaron — thanks so much for joining us today and for this book. Like Jane, I’m so glad that you spent time on the pamphleteers — speaking up in the face of injustice is the original form of patriotism. It isn’t just a right to stand up for what you believe — it is a duty. And it’s wonderful to see such a history and context for that laid out so well in your book.
eCAHNomics @ 49
Andrew Keen. I reviewed the book. The funny thing about it is that it is filled with “amateur” thinking and writing–funny, coming from someone complaining about amateurs.
Pachacutec @ 54
The Science Blogs and the Seed Magazine blogs speak to that – they are invaluable for digesting and analyzing the latest research and applying it to practice. Readers and commenters get real time application assistance and support, and the chaff is separated pretty quickly from the wheat.
Aaron Barlow @ 48
I view that as the Intern level. If they get good enough and like doing it, they’ll seek the training (not for the diploma, but to get better and get more money). Those who don’t want to go that far will sustain as amateurs and they’ll then feed into the wider blogosphere which is equally good, just different.
Nequals1 @ 52
That’s the rub, isn’t it? Millions are trying in different ways, but very few, so far, are making it work.
To me, any financially successful online entity has to have an offline component of some sort. Money, an institution… whatever. There has to be some sort of offline platform or springboard.
Perhaps getting a nursing organization to sponsor the blog…. Oh, I really wish I could give you good advice on this!
Unfortunately, I’ve never been a whiz at turning a profit.
with 5 major media corps controlling “news” its a given that i must come online to get a more rounded view of whats going on… print media is really losing ground to the websites and tv will also find its losing viewers as well – its difficult finding news programs that doesn’t spin either right or pro corporation….
Christy Hardin Smith @ 56
In my view, bloggers are merely paying the utility bills in the palace they built for us.
althespook >
So true & here is a big change that just might be coming in the the science domain (still needs to be voted into law…you know what to do about that)
“The internet can be as informative as the library of Alexandria or as crass as a bathroom wall.” – GSD-firedoglake.com
Aaron Barlow @ 46
Very nice fit with Dean’s Conservatives without a Conscience, with regard to the authoritarian mindset and the desire for top-down control. Does that say something about the inherent nature of corporate media, though, in which the reward system is driven top-down, and the journalists are selected for their ability to thrive within that authoritarian-funded system?
Pachacutec @ 54
By being completely in the open with our work, by allowing comments that can take us to task for errors, and by the ability to change our work in a way much more difficult in print, we insure that the “need” for editors disappears.
We have replaced “commentary” with “conversation.”
Aaron Barlow @ 46
Thank you. You touch on a very interesting idea with your use of the word “control” and I am intrigued by your comment re: Keen. I think some people are worried about the issue of control because they no longer understand, much less uphold the concept of Honor. I used the term Great Game on purpose. I think that central to the power of the blogosphere is the fact that its writers have, are invested in and uphold a sense of honor, in what they are doing and how they go about doing it. Maybe I am being overly lofty, but I think it’s important to use the word in order to bring it back into the group consciousness.
Honor can be a helpful antidote to conformity. And, if used judiciously, to arrogance and haste, too. (Of course, one would have to forego Karl Rove’s leftover quail and sausages…. there’s always a down-side!)
Hey, don’t knock the PTB. W came precious close to taking over the country with the good-ole authoritarian model.
Thanks for joining us to chat today, Mr Barlow. Do you think there will be a differentiation within the blogosphere around business models, organizational models, self-correcting models, and political leanings — a differentiation that will be understood from the outside? TradMed seems intent on tarring us all with the brush of untruth, by harping on the success of the SBVFTruth and those who took down CBS over the TANG documents.
The blogs I frequent don’t allow fact-free discussions or analysis, while those on the right seem quite popular. Will the landscape seem clearer, ever, or is it always in the interests of Traditional Media that the blogosphere be seen as Vinnie in his basement making stuff up?
althespook @ 59
I disagree. As a former journalist, I’ve no interest in returning to that field, though I will continue to blog (I do teach journalism, however). There are many bloggers already more experienced and better trained than a good number of journalists. I don’t think the difference between the amateurs and the professionals will ever be in talent or skill, but in the amount of time one is able to dedicate to the pursuit.
speaking of the jounalism schools-won’t up and coming journalists, being a new generation, due to the influence of blogs as regular media in their world, be disseminating news in a different manner than the older generation they will be replacing? that they don’t see the same ‘line’ that some established journalists see between themselves and their readers?
in the back of their minds, i am sure that they know they will be ‘called out’ on anything not kosher……and that it might matter more to them, since it is a forum with which they are more familiar……
Aaron Barlow @ 65
Ah. Now that is quite familiar.
It’s the Cluetrain Manifesto, applied to journalism, and of which the first of the 95 Theses is “Markets are conversations.”
News is conversation in the age of the internet, and the authoritarian Powers That Be do not grok this point, any more than they grok the other 94 Theses of the Cluetrain Manifesto.
Rayne @ 64
Yes, it does. But it doesn’t really work. Remember the Peter Principle? One rises to the level of one’s incompetence?
Aaron Barlow >
That`s a keeper quote…into storage it goes
“…I have reason to know, as do many of you, that when the evidence on a controversial subject is fairly and calmly presented, the public recognizes it for what it is–an effort to illuminate rather than to agitate…” – Edward R. Murrow
Aaron’s been with us an hour, and of course he’s more than welcome to stay as long as he likes, but since at some point he’s got his own life to live on a Sunday, I just wanted to jump out in front and thank him again for joining us and for taking so many questions.
I recommend the book for anyone interested in these questions, and on another note, it’s a genuine, personal pleasure to have him here, knowing as I do his work from a few years ago. He’s one of us, and a journalistic “professional” at the same time. As he points out, these things are not contradictory, no matter what Brian Williams might have us believe.
Thanks again, Aaron.
Aaron @ 65:” We have replaced “commentary” with “conversation.” “
Sometimes, conversation. Sometimes, we have replaced the lecture with the seminar.
dmac @ 70
It’s an interesting thought. Will people going into journalism who are more comfortable with the two-way communication blogging offers see their job, and their audiences in a different fashion?
Aaron Barlow @ 69
I’m being unclear. I was basing this comment on the hypothetical future where there are fully functional academic curricula for Blogging (not Journalism except as an example of a profession rapidly going extinct…)
Aaron Barlow @ 72
Oh, the examples are Legion in this administration.
Pick a political appointee. Any one of them.
[sigh]
TeddySanFran @ 68
I wish I could answer you… for I just don’t know what’s around the next bend.
However, I do suspect that the “Vinnie in jammies” canard has about had it.
Pachacutec @ 74
Thank you so much for your time today, Aaron. I am looking forward to reading your book. Thank you, too, Pach, for the great introduction to today’s salon!
Thanks again for coming by, Aaron! Hope to see you again and often (and please lurk in the comments if you have time!)
Aaron Barlow @ 60
Where are the patrons of progressive thought and citizen journalism? Given the abundance of conservative think tanks, why isn’t there more of that presence in the progressive sphere?
dmac @ 70
Right now, in j-schools, is a growing divide between the “traditionals” and the “Webbies.” I don’t know how this will pan out.
Thanks very much Mr. Barlow. I needed this.
Jane Hamsher @ 76
The young Cassie club will have a much easier time keeping facts in the conversation.
Rayne @ 71
How did I miss that? Thanks so much for the link – and it’s all online! :^)
Eureka Springs @ 85
Now THERE’S a thought that gives me hope for the future!
Nequals1 @ 82
Excellent question!
Any thoughts about how long the MSM can stay profitable in the Internet era?
Thanks, all of you!
This has been a great deal of fun.
Good writing to all of you.
Aaron — you’ve been a critical pivot point between traditional brick-and-mortar journalism of the past and the internet-mediated citizen journalism of the future for us at ePM. As you’ve embraced the changes in the profession, how have the traditionalists treated you personally?
Do they continue to treat you as if you’re inside their fenceline, or are they treating you like you’ve grown a third eye in the middle of your forehead? Or are they oblivious?
edit: Oops, looks like I missed you, Aaron, will try to catch you on line at ePM!
Any of them have foundations? Grant proposals? Or are all moguls Rs?
Rayne @ 91
I think Aaron may have logged off…
Nequals1 >
Partly due to the way our monetary system is structured (think about the concept in economics of “externalities”); playing the big money game is an exercise in deception & manipulation
Humans w/a sense of fairness and honesty are less likely to score big & thereby have the reserves to support that sort of infrastructure
Fewer of them = less of the infrastructure
This means the progressive side needs to operate smarter
“On the internet, nobody knows you’re a dog” – Peter Steiner
N=1@ 86
my thoughts exactly!!
daCascadian @ 94
Cats, OTOH, can be detected rather easily…
s;afkjaseopriawh9paohio[sfgso[fi
(Cat typing, usually done by sitting or laying down on the keyboard.)
Thank you Mr. Barlow. Maybe someday soon “blogger” won’t be said with a sneer by the corporate media. You’re a big help.
Thank you Aaron and Pachacutec.
Thanks everyone. What a quick hour this was!
Happy Birthday ES.
make that N=1 @ 82
althespook >
707 !!
The cat in my lap agrees w/you
“…the art of life is more like navigation than warfare…” – Alan Watts
OT ~ Michael Moore Live Chat @ C&L (beware 500 comments ) LINK
Excellent thread but I’m not sure if he’s still there.
Nequals1 @ 86
Oh, you definitely need that text. Look at healthcare, and how much of what is wrong or incredibly expensive about healthcare is in direct opposition to the 95 Theses.
If you’ve read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell and remember what he wrote about the likelihood of a doctor being sued depending on his interaction with his patients, you can see that a doctor who cannot have a healthcare conversation with his patients as partners in the healing process is a legal risk to himself and his own insurers.
It’s the same failure within corporate media; they don’t want or cannot facilitate a conversation with their readers as partners in the news reporting process. They see their readers as saleable resources; they sell our attention to advertisers, perceiving advertisers to be their clients. But they give us little in exchange — and they cannot understand why we shout at them in their one-way comments section, or abuse them if they are Little Debbie the So-Called Ombudsman.
If only we could sue them for malpractice…
Thanks Laura..)
How refreshing to watch/read such an intelligent and relevant conversation. Thanks to Aaron and thanks to Pach for a fine lead in.
thanks aaron and pach – this was very enlightening indeed… the lake IS THE PLACE;o)
This is EPU from last thread, but since Aaron has apparently left and no new thread is up, i’d like to ask it again of the medical folk here at the lake:
1) if any of bush’s polyps were cancerous, could they have spread?
2) would they be life-threatening if they spread?
3) what is the expected survival time if they have spread and are life threatening?
4) would chemo/radiation treatments render bush unfit to serve?
5) if he is unfit to serve, is he replaced via that Ammendment/Law about an incapacitated pres? or must he resign?
6) if cheny had been impeached when bush dies/becomes incapacitated/resigns, does he still become pres?
7) if we use the incapacitation process, who gets to replace him if not veep?
Probably these are meaningless questions. but fate is never to be taken lightly….
Rayne @ 103
Thanks – Funny that you mention Blink. I did, and I ended up having that same discussion with a trauma surgeon who did have difficulty having those conversations and so was in hot water much more than he deserved. Big tall guy from Texas with spheres of brass – just the bold, self-assured guy you want if you had a nasty trauma. Unlike his Crawford neighbor, this fellow had some insight and enought self assuredness to see where he could change how he engaged with patients and families (and other docs and nurses). More reading.
And gotcha all beat on interspecies typing – collie nose and cats paws often are duo typing – muzzle on the qwerty keys and cat on the poiuy keys, and me on the delete, delete, backspace, delete buttons. ;^)
Breaking News:
Reid Shrugs Off Censure Motion
I’d liked to echo an earlier comment about “honor” and another by Aaron about the “editing” function performed by readers.
As one who is an amateaur and still a beginner at that, I can’t emphasize enough how intimidating it is to put a post on FDL’s front page, knowing that 3,000 or more people may not only glance at it but have the ability to immediately call me an uniformed, clueless idiot.
The “editing” functions two ways, one is via the comments, offering different insights as well as corrections, but just as important is the poster’s anticipation of the comments. I spend more time when drafting asking whether I can defend a statement than thinking about how well it’s written. And after every session, I’m always a little embarrassed. If you take it seriously, it’s either incredibly educational or incredibly humbling, and often both.
Nequals1 @ 108
A Symphony And Ballet For ASCII…
althespook @ 107
See first part answers in bold. Don’t know the answers to succession questions.
Nequals1 @ 112
doesn’t matter. the bold are enough, even if he’s been nailed he can survive to leave office.
Why am I smiling? I don’t want a President Cheney. Ever.
Scarecrow @ 110
It shows in your writing.
Scarecrow @ 110
Thank you for sharing your experience, Scarecrow (by the way, I would never have guessed your were new at this, I always think your posts are stimulating). I write a lot court reports and I know how painful it is to figure out ways to say what’s true without being unfair or inflammatory, much less state my opinion honestly and defensibly ( but not defensively). There’s a whole lot to be said for having to stand up for one’s words. I so appreciate places like this, that help us all think better.
Scarecrow @ 110
What’s the definition of amateur? At least to this reader, you are professional, well-versed, articulate, passionate, logical, insightful and very witty. And always appreciated for what you bring to the discussion and how you bring it.
Scarecrow @ 110
Back for a quick moment… and glad I am!
You really get to the heart of the movement from “literacy” to “neteracy.” In a “literate” culture, what one has written becomes simply a “thing,” immobile, a statue. In a “neterate” culture, what one has written has plasticity, a dynamic, a life. It changes and grows, is corrected, adapted… it lives.
Aaron Barlow @ 117
Yes, that’s the fascinating thing. The net not only reflects a narrative, it co-creates it.
Laura Doty @ 118
Rather like the inter-connected-ness of neurons and synapses in the living human brain….
Rayne @ 91
It’s interesting… most of the serious journalists (not the winchells, not the inside-the-beltway people) really do understand that they need to be part of the change, or will lose their jobs (many already have). So, they listen to bloggers. They are thinking and learning.
We’ll see something good from them, one day.
What I was trying to emphasize about this new medium is how important is the role that readers play in their comments. One of the things Jane constantly emphasizes with us is the importance of stimulating a conversation — the self-correcting and educating process itself becomes the goal — not just posting for it’s own sake. And the conversations occur not only in the comments to the post but in the reactions the post stimulates in other blogs who might link to us. And our comments bring the conversations back here. It is a truly phenomenal media, one that nurtures the entire democratic principle, and it is astonishing that anyone in the traditional 4th estate would see it as anything other than a plus — unless they have other motives.
althespook @ 119
Exactly. And with functions (memory, action) not just storyline.
Scarecrow @ 121
YES! Having a place like FDL gives me so much more hope about the concept of democracy. And and I agree with you, S-crow, that the motives of some MS writers and their media are worth examining.
jane at 76 says-”It’s an interesting thought. Will people going into journalism who are more comfortable with the two-way communication blogging offers see their job, and their audiences in a different fashion?”
sorry, i was sidetracked for a while……..
yes, i have really wondered about this……my step-sister is a journalist in virginia, and i think about how media has changed since she entered into it wide-eyed in the early eighties…….
my best friend’s daughter has been involved in live journals and anything ‘net’, since the net was created, i like to think i had something to do with that, since i was an early net person…..she is 36, what she calls ‘media’ is far different from any generation proceeding her…….
everything evolves into a different form, so, what form is the media evolving into? has to be blogs…….or a form of it….the immediacy of it can’t be replicated….that is what is ‘usual’ now, what is comfortable to the generation coming up right now…….how could it not play a part?
how could their view not be affected? and the way they disseminate information, would have to include and immediate form of information, and that is the blog……
FYI, Jane is upstairs
Scarecrow @ 121
The comfortably ensconced seat-of-power MSM vs. the blogs:
“Nay” chair vs. nurture.
Ms. Hamsher has a new thread ready. Poodles in Pajamas
rayne at 103 says-”If you’ve read Blink by Malcolm Gladwell and remember what he wrote about the likelihood of a doctor being sued depending on his interaction with his patients, you can see that a doctor who cannot have a healthcare conversation with his patients as partners in the healing process is a legal risk to himself and his own insurers.”
all is not lost, my doctors talk in english, still………
scarecrow at 110 says-”I’d liked to echo an earlier comment about “honor” and another by Aaron about the “editing” function performed by readers.
As one who is an amateaur and still a beginner at that, I can’t emphasize enough how intimidating it is to put a post on FDL’s front page, knowing that 3,000 or more people may not only glance at it but have the ability to immediately call me an uniformed, clueless idiot.
The “editing” functions two ways, one is via the comments, offering different insights as well as corrections, but just as important is the poster’s anticipation of the comments. I spend more time when drafting asking whether I can defend a statement than thinking about how well it’s written. And after every session, I’m always a little embarrassed. If you take it seriously, it’s either incredibly educational or incredibly humbling, and often both.”
i have never taken issue with anything you have written that i have read…………it’s all been completely correct, so have felt no need to correct it…………
I’m sorry I missed the lively discussion today, but wanted to chime in to give my kudos to Aaron and thank FDL for having him on to talk about his fine work.
A goldmine of comments!