Some people say the tobacco lobby is the most evil group in Washington.
Others disagree, and point to the insurance-industry lobby (Sicko makes a good case therefor). Still others point to the oil industry.
But there’s one group of lobbyists that may be the most evil of them all.
You see, while the other lobbyists are trying to use feel-good methods to sell you on their expensive, addictive polluting or otherwise-deadly, and/or actively lobbying to keep viable alternatives from being put into common use, there is one industry lobby that, more than just about any other I can think of, does two evil things at once. It preys on people on the lower rungs of the economic ladder and, instead of helping them to fight their real enemies, plays to their worst instincts — fear and paranoid insecurity in general, and racism in particular — in order to set them against each other for fun and profit.
I speak, of course, of the gun lobby.
As we all know, the financial condition for most Americans really hasn’t improved that much, if at all, over the past few decades; real wages peaked in the early 1970s and have, aside from the respite of the Clinton years, been going down ever since. Our parents may not have had laptops, but they had savings accounts, and they didn’t generally have much in the way of personal debt — and they were able to send us to college on one or two incomes. That’s led to a disconnect between the shiny happy lifestyles the TV shows us and the not-so-shiny reality. It’s also led to people asking “Who screwed us and why?”
The NRA and its friends in the “militia movement” are into the same stock-in-trade: Fear. Their target audience: Those people, generally disenfranchised white males with at most a high-school education and middling to piddling income, who suspect they’re being screwed but either have no clue who’s screwing them — or who know but don’t have the guts to fight the real enemy. The NRA and its allies push fear in general, and fear of non-whites in particular, to these white males, telling them that blacks/liberals/Jews/women/unions/etc. (but never ever ever corrupt corporations or businesses) are the cause of the white guys’ problem (and that the problem is crime, not the hyper-rich bleeding everyone below them) — then promptly sell themselves as the solution.
But even the two-pronged sales pitch of evil can’t always win out. A growing majority of Americans is now on the opposite side of the NRA on every important issue. It’s getting harder and harder for the gun lobby to pretend that they speak for all Americans. About time, too.



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zed
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I want to get rid of lobbyists. I support public financing of elections.
Also, everybody in this huge family of mine has guns. But none of us belongs to the NRA. When we hunt, we use bow and arrow.
TexB Think everyone must be reading Harry. Glad you showed up. Thought I was going to be all alone.
Great post PW.
I have very little use for guns, especially among normal citizens who are not police or military.
Good point but I’d like to say that the biggest lobby without any redeeming value whatsoever and which is responsible for The MeatGrinder and our Democratic legislators ‘mysterious’ lack of will in trying to stop Bush’s excellent adventure, at least until the 4th of July week when they all went home and got the memo, is without question….
These guys.
Half the budget goes to them so they get my nod.
ahhhh – the all-powerful gun lobby….just the mention of gun reform drives these folks into a frenzy!! why must we have such powerful guns at our disposal? we’ve seen recently the carnage unleashed by such law-abiding citizens….and yet we demand even more firepower – i say its disgusting
Phoenix Woman!
OT: My First Diary. Please show some love if you haven’t already. If you have, thanks!
What I don’t understand is why the NRA wants people to be able to get assault rifles and I guess bazookas if they want them. What rational person needs those weapons which are designed to do nothing but kill people – not game.
Right On, PW!!! I find it fascinating that when ever I find a NRA bumper sticker I find a ‘W’ sticker on the same car!
We have guns for only one thing. We like to plink and target practice. Bottles, cans, clay pigeons etc. I have a fifty year old Winchester 30-30. Lever action. We call it the Annie Oakly gun. It has never had a bullet in it. And it never will have.
ccmask @ 9
Very cool! Great idea, and a good start. May it be the first of many.
Thanks, PW, for the post. It is really important that this be talked about. Too many kids are dying on our streets.
Twain @ 10
Although in a world with Blackwater and the other para military types floating around and the repeal of posse comitatus, I can sometimes see the point of wanting the fire power(taking off my tin-foil now)
dakine01 @ 15
If they want me, they’ll get me. Let me have pepper spray and things like that in case of mugging or intruders.
TexB @ 16
True. I have a 20 guage shotgun only cuz my dad’s girlfriend didn’t want my brother to take it after dad died. No rounds for it tho’.
Big Energy. Big Healthcare. Big Pharma. Big Insurance. Big Business. Big Tobacco. Big Finance. Big Media. The Military-Industrial complex. The Corrections-Industrial complex. And, yes, the NRA and its allies.
All the usual suspects. Taking on the gun lobby means taking on them all. Their interest in preserving the system that enables their preeminence is common to them all, and they will thus support each other, as a threat to one is a threat to all.
I’m ambigous about guns. Huge personal tragedy involving a gun, so am no fan of them, but that made me come to grips with my previously incohate thoughts.
OTOH, I know hunters who love their guns and act responsibly. They start out as enemies of the left, regardless of other political positions, and can be won over only if the alternate (W) is hugely bad. I see no reason for the left to be so anti-gun as to make knee jerk enemies of these decent folks.
OTOH, I live in NYC, and would prefer fewer guns on the street (although in my neighborhood guns are not a problem; as usual it’s the poor who are at risk).
I’ve been thinking that the solution is a micro one, along the lines of what Bloomberg has been doing, negotiating with officials in areas where guns come from in bulk.
But then, Virginia put the kaibash (sp?) on that.
But I still think that’s the way to go.
Oh, and working to convince the industry to install safety devices. Remember how long it took to get seat belts in cars, and how resistent the auto industry was? Yet it finally got done.
TexB, the hotel request was honored.
real wages peaked in the early 1970s and have, aside from the respite of the Clinton years, been going down ever since.
I’ve never seen credible evidence that there was a “respite” during the Clinton years. I’d appreciate being enlightened if that is the case, because I’ll add that evidence to my growing stack of statistics about the perfidy of the GOP in general, and the Bushista regime in particular.
Our income went up markedly during the Clinton years, but mostly because we were at the peaks of our professional careers at that point in time.
Loo Hoo. @ 20
Thank you!
Plz email me the name of the hotel and anything else I need to know.
Has this been posted/discussed here?
Italy police raid ‘terror school’
Italian policemen involved in the Perugia raid
Italian police put a laptop seized in the raid on display
Police in central Italy say they have uncovered a bomb school for Islamist militants after raiding a mosque in Perugia and making three arrests.
Evidence of training in explosives and poisons, and instructions on flying a Boeing 747 were reportedly found.
Police said the suspected cell had links to a group associated with Osama Bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network.
They arrested the imam and two other men, all Moroccans in their 40s, and were searching for a fourth suspect.
The three detainees refused to reply to questions when they were brought before a local magistrate.
Twenty foreign students were also arrested in a related dawn raid and police said that those without residence permits would be deported.
Perugia, a popular tourist destination because of its medieval and Renaissance palaces, is home to Italy’s University for Foreigners, where hundreds of students from the Middle East are enrolled in university courses in Italian and other subjects.
The discovery of the alleged terrorist training centre is a matter for serious concern to the Italian authorities, the BBC’s David Willey reports from Rome.
Italian Interior Minister Giuliano Amato said it was now necessary to pay close attention to mosques being used for activities unrelated to religion.
The origin of and reason for the Second Amendment:
has to do with the creation of a militia, when there was no standing US armed forces to fight a possible revival of British (or any) tyranny. The later establishment of the National Guard and US armed forces has rendered the Second Amendment obsolete.
ccmask @ 9
Thanks! Very useful.
dakine01 @ 15
I’m with you Dakine.
Hi, PW. I’m with you most times. Here I differ somewhat. I believe your portrait of the NRA membership is only partly accurate. Check with Christy (or Jane Fonda!) on this. In fact, the fastest growing segment of NRA membership is that of women. Lots of NRA members are pretty well educated too, at least on paper. Another item: the crime rate among NRA members is about zero. I’m not a hunter or even a shooter, but for me the Second Amendment carves out an important zone of personal liberty. The NRA doesn’t bat 100% as far as I’m concerned, but it’s the only game in town insofar as the Second Amendment is concerned. Attacking the NRA on specific issues is fine in my view, but mischaracterizing the NRA membership only serves to further the harmful cultural divide in this country, in my opinion.
LS @ 26
me too
I’ve heard (believable) warnings that the nutcase militias will be back in force the day after a Dem President is sworn in. You know, libruls are going to ban the Bible, repealing the Patriot Act will erode civil liberties, the moon is made of green cheese… And guns.
wow
I didn’t know we could say stuff like this in liberal blogosphere
Betsy, YGM.
Is the 2nd amendment the only one that the Bushies have not messed with?
Biodun @ 25
The militia was viewed by the Founders as synonymous with the citizenry. Read Paul Revere’s Ride to see what I’m referring to. The Founders understood that the only way the people would keep their freedom as if the were armed in their individual persons.
And if you think the National Guard or the Army makes personal weaponry irrelevant….
Look how well that’s working out in The MeatGrinder. Then study up on the latest writing about asymmetric warfare.
ccmask @ 9
Cool. I checked it out and left some love…
ccmask @ 9
cc that’s really good, and handy for everyone coming to town! just right but extra nice, too!
Jonathan @ 27
You should note that PW is not talking primarily about NRA members. She is talking about the segment of the public toward which the NRA’s leadership directs their public relations efforts. A very significant distinction there.
Alice @ 30
Refreshing your browser might make things look much nicer.
Jonathan @ 28
I won’t argue about the crime rates among NRA members – I simply don’t know – but the policies they support, and can generally get enacted into legislation – put a lot of guns in the hands to people who do not use them responsibly. I think NRA members are responsible for their own actions, and also the actions of people that they enable to have guns.
I am no fan of hand guns, but I learned that it takes my local police 30 minutes to respond to a 3:00am call about shots fired, now it turned out to be my neighbors lighting fireworks, but I was sleepy and did not think of that.
TexB @ 32
So far, they haven’t tried to quarter troops in my apartment…but these two seem to be about all that’s left of the Bill of Rights.
ccmask – Haven’t visited Chicago in a long, long time. But at that time the Technology Museum was really extraordinary – lots of really cool, clever exhibits. Spent many more hours there than I had planned to, it was so much fun.
In my humble opinion, the 2nd Amendment is the only thing that has or will deter complete totalitarian rule in America should it ever come down to that. It has nothing to do with being liberal.
Sometimes I think that Bush is succeeding in Iraq. Succeeding in bringing down our military so that they nolonger exist as a fighting force. It is so much better for BushCo to deal with Blackwater (they answer to nobody) and overcharge American taxpayers. There is a ton of money to be made.
I think that Poppy Bush resigned his membership in the NRA.
This family of Republicans and Democrats have no use whatsoever for the NRA.
Ed*ard Teller @ 21
No longer have easy access to the historic data, but the statement comports with my recollection. The economy was good for labor during the Clinton years. Huge increases in employment; and real wages for the average worker did tick up a bit. Describing that as a “respite” is fair.
Part of the reason for the real wage gain was the strong demand for labor. The other part related to medical costs. FAS106 (Financial Accounting Standard #106) was being discussed in the early 1990s. It required corporations to account for the future medical benefits promised to retirees as a liability and flow some of that thru the P&L. That’s what gave rise to the cessation of all medical benefits to retirees (I was hired long enuf before to be grandfathered), and to “managed care,” which for several years held down medical inflation costs. That, in turn, made companies feel a little more generous to wages, since benefits’ inflation was not so virulent. As managed care’s savings ran out, and blowback set in, that interregnum is long over.
Notice I speak of medical care, not health care. Health is not very closely related to medical care-health is much more a function of genes & lifestyle. Don’t give docs any more credit than they can steal.
I’ll have to check it out Gordon. Thanks.
Our President is a nut. A very dangerous nut.
Shrub is continuing the outrage that consists of his GWOT and the travesty of Gitmo and detainees!
Now, the Maladministration is pleading with Scotus not to add further detainee pleas for Habeus relief to their upcoming review of Hamdan!
http://www.scotusblog.com/mova……html#more
ccmask @ 43
There is still a lot of army that is not in Iraq – all those 700-odd military bases around the world likely have a few people left.
LS @ 43
I don’t have any problem with the 2nd. I want guns out of the hands of teenagers and criminals. I read in SF paper that gangs were requiring someone to kill another person in order to become a member. Many young people have been gunned down on the street who had no gang ties and were quite often outstanding kids on their way to college. How does the NRA attempt to do anything to stop that?
The 2nd Amendment obsolete? It may be “obsolete”-but it’s still there. If you want to repeal the 2nd Amendment, go for it-but until then, I’m very uncomfortable with a situation where the only people with arms are criminals and cops. Or people like Blackwater.I don’t think it is a liberal or conservative position either. I think it is an absolutist’s position in support of the Bill of Rights.
Well I’ve come 180 degrees on the gun issue. I don’t think you can begin to compare the evil represented by the NRA with that of the oil industry or the auto industry.
Personally I have no interest in ever owning a gun. I’m a typical overeduated white male.
But opposing gun ownership is a good way to lose elections that matter for the future of the country in rural states.
And, as the Bush administration takes democracy over a cliff, there is a certain horrible and undeniable logic to the idea that the people (the great unwashed mass of people in communities everywhere, latino and white and black, Jew and Christian and Muslim) would do well to have access to the means to resist state tyranny.
Oh sure, you call that tinfoil hat thinking. Sure peak oil when it hits will probably be more like 30 year recession than a global depression and population die off with marauding hordes wandering from city to city in search of food.
That’s all probably true, but there is enough of a chance that it isn’t true that I don’t see such a big downside in the distributed capacity for interpersonal violence (personal side arms.)
Many societies have guns and low levels of interpersonal gun violence because they have the social strength and resilience to control that.
I do think that gun registration is a good idea… but I’ve also come to think that gun ownership is a good idea.
I’m not for the NRA… but I’m definitely not opposed to guns anymore.
And as most Democrats understand, being opposed to guns is a good way to lose elections and make the victory of Bush-ist fascism that much easier.
No, both guns and pro-gun politics are a good antidote to the advance of totalitarian fascism in the United States.
LS @ 42
well sure, let’s defend our feedom with guns, ’cause it is working so well in the Middle East and South Asia.
Wouldn’t want to be like those sisses in Eastern Europe who kept writing tracts, sending faxes and signing petitions asking the Soviets to leave. Wouldn’t want to be like that silly woman in the Philappines who responded to her husband’s murder with an appeal to the electorate in an obviously corrupt system. Sure wouldn’t want to be like those pathetic mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, who just walked in circles when their children were dissappeared. Nooooooooo. And let’s not pay any attention to Martin Luther King, Jr..
No, lets get our guns, ’cause that works so well.
TexB @ 32
This is the first administration to publicly endorse the “individual ownership” interpretation. In fact, Bush said there was a SCOTUS decision to that effect. The trouble is, that decision was Dredd Scott, which found slavery legal (by reasoning that the founding fathers wouldn’t have been so dumb as to allow, erm, non-whites to own guns, so, erm, non-whites aren’t people).
It was so nice that the MSM picked up on that and thus Gore won by a landslide, wasn’t it?
I would like to see Michael Moore do a movie on the NRA and the like.
For me the question is why licensing of guns and gun-shooting training are considered a violation of 2nd amendment.
A. Citizen @ 33:
The three modern models:
My bold.
ccmask @ 9
This is a great list for things to do in a great city. Don’t miss the Field Museum!! Boy, I’d love to do the Segway architectural tour — sounds like a blast.
A.Citizen @ 34
I’ve done a fair amount of reading on asymmetric warfare, but you refer to “the latest.” Do you have something specific in mind? If so, could you give me the ref? Thx.
LS @ 42
And yet, the leading totalitarians in the United States today seem not even slightly concerned about letting you own an assault weapon. Could it be that they understand something about the anti-totalitarian deterrent potential of firearms that you don’t?
Christine Edmonson @ 58
I’d like that one too. Everytime I go to NY I keep saying I’m going to go on one of those underground tours in the subway. They are called Urban Explorations.
Miles @ 53, see me @ 19. Much similar thinking.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
You’re joking, right?
Jonathan @ 27
i agree. part of this is, i think, the cultural divide between those of us who see guns as a tool (mostly rural?) and those of us who see guns as a weapon (mostly urban/metro?).
i hate hate hate guns. they scare the bejesus out of me. don’t want them in my home, don’t want them around me. i aspire to nonviolence.
AND i want to respect the rights of responsible gun owners.
attack issues – yes.
attack NRA members – no.
my 2 cents.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
Actually, I think he already has. titled Bowling For Columbine iirc.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 56
Wasn’t that the one on Columbine?
Twain @ 50
I don’t suggest sacrificing human beings in order to maintain the 2nd Amendment, and I don’t believe the NRA does either. Guns in the hands of violent people is a social problem and a criminal justice problem. Socio-economic factors, cultural factors, and educational factors are the cause. If not guns, they will use knives, bombs, or any other tool they can think of.
EvilDrPuma @ 60
so good
it had to be repeated
RonD @ 51
My dad bought me a lifetime membership in the NRA for my 18th birthday. I turned it in back in the early 80s, or thereabouts – when I saw the growing alliance between them and Christian fundamentalists. I used to hunt a lot, but seldom do anymore.
I own some firearms, but they’re usually kept locked up. And oiled and sighted too, with a lot of ammo, night vision stuff and so on. I’m not so concerned about the government as I am about what rightwing blowhards with long memories would do to me and my family if there was a major collapse of the governments’ abilities to enforce the law around the land.
Biodun #57,
You are obviously correct in pointing out that the courts have indeed ruled this way-but, for myself, much like the courts saying that Free Sppech Zones don’t infringe the 1st and warrantless surveillance somehow doesn’t violate the 4th, I believe they are mistaken, as it seems apparent to me that all of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights were meant to guarantee the rights of individuals.
Hello, everyone! Has everyone got their zeds?
Here’s a bit of good news: Senate Dems block GOP bill that would have kept the Fairness Doctrine from ever being revived. We’re one step closer to getting our media back.
Ed*ard Teller @ 69
Well you are up in the frontier country where ownership makes far more sense than in the urban areas of the east coast.
Phoenix Woman @ 71
I’d rather see a bill that revived the Fairness Doctrine, but ten to one would say Bush would veto it and the Senate couldn’t override.
By the way: Yes, the picture above is a parody of the infamous NRA drawing with the caption “I’m from the government…”
Another point, extensive safety training should be encouraged, and programs on nonviolent conflict resolution. Some European countries have more household guns per capita than in the U.S. (Switzerland, for example, where the military is a militia), but don’t use them to kill each other.
I live in Maine which has the highest per-capita gun ownership rate, and the lowest murder rate in the nation (less than 1/3 rd the national average). I don’t own one, but I’ve had to call one of my neighbors to come shoot a rabid raccoon hanging around my house (when my son was about 4).
OTOH, almost all of those guns are hunting rifles, and we have strict tests to get a hunting license, (including mandatory safety classes) and very strict regulations.
Good at first read, not on second thought…
The logic of gun ownership is more symbolic than practical. IF civilization collapses, all bets are off and weapons might be very useful. UNTIL and BEFORE civilization collapses gun ownership is a psychodynamic issue involving the politics of masculinity, strength, personal autonomy and many other issues.
By opposing gun ownership Democrats line themselves up on the wrong side of issues that they dare not cede exclusively to the Republicans. Real men vote soci*list and real men vote democratic… and you’d do better to include guns in soci*lism than to try to separate masculinity from gun ownership… because I can guarantee you that in large parts of the country you won’t ever succeed in doing the latter.
Meditate on it.
[edited by Mods and released]
GordonM @ 77
Now that’s the kind of gun laws I approve of. Here in TX though, I think toddlers can carry without a permit as soon as they’re old enough to say GUN.
biodun says at 24-The origin of and reason for the Second Amendment:
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. “
has to do with the creation of a militia, when there was no standing US armed forces to fight a possible revival of British (or any) tyranny. The later establishment of the National Guard and US armed forces has rendered the Second Amendment obsolete.
============
i know many gun owners who would take issue with this, not their definition of why they have the right to bear arms………
gordonm says at 29-”I’ve heard (believable) warnings that the nutcase militias will be back in force the day after a Dem President is sworn in. You know, libruls are going to ban the Bible, repealing the Patriot Act will erode civil liberties, the moon is made of green cheese… And guns.”
i know there are nut cases out there, but that is like saying that all progressive democrats are militant……..the ‘militia’ people i know of defend the constitution, that is it…they believe we are a republic,that ALL things should be run according to the constitution…and i know some from each side of the state, and they all follow along the same lines…….the constitution……
they don’t ally with bible thumpers, don’t use the word liberal to describe anyone that i’ve ever heard, and don’t like the patriot act in any manner……so i don’t know which nutcase militias you’re referring to…
they are constitutionalists, not dem, not repub….and they like to harp on how corrupt the justice system is…and how the ‘old boys club’ runs the world…which being from that world, i can tell you, yes they do…….i am not a militia kind of person, just know a few, and they like to talk, though haven’t seen them in a while…..but they aren’t nut cases, not by a long shot, and they educate themselves, in the law and other things, and community preparedness, most of them are very involved in their communties…….i wouldn’t mind having them watching out for my family…….and i’m not a militant……
“Bowling for Columbine”. I’d like to see Moore take it further.
dakine01 @ 72
When I worked in the field of corrections in Anchorage, I never got a concealed carry permit like a lot of colleagues had. I’ve had pistols pulled on me more than once in parking lots or whatever – all random bits of bumping into rage or, in one case, a guy coming down off a week-long free-basing binge. Having a gun on me would have probably made those situations worse, not better. When I need heat, my bodyguard, Bossa the Shriner Clown packs. He’s had a permit since they came out.
Throughout the history of the Second Amendment and subsequent commentaries, there has always been an extensive debate about whether the words “militia” and “people” refer to a collective or individual model.
GordonM @ 76
I grew up in KY where they had a strong fish and game department and many variations of training from the state conservation dept and groups like Ducks Unlimited. Lived all over places in NE and upstate NY. A lot of the folks in southern NH couldn’t recognize or didn’t want to accept that their old hunting grounds were being swept up in new housing. In upstate NY, a lot of guys who hunted refused to hun the “lower tier” as that was amateur hour in their eyes – a lot of hunters out of the city who shot at anything that moved.
Alice @ 53
My ex-LS and his entire family were victims of the Papa Doc regime. First they took all of the guns from the citizens, then they purged and murdered those who were not on Duvalier’s side. Thirty members of his family were brutally murdered and hauled off on pick-up trucks to their deaths; including a grandmother who was thrown onto the truck with her rocking chair in which she was sitting at the time on the porch of their house. They were shot, bludgeoned, etc. to their deaths. His father and uncle were arrested and thrown in jail; his uncle, a General in the Army, was tortured. His cousin, who attempted to overthrow Duvalier and his murdering thugs, was publicly hung and it was shown on national TV.
Had the people been able to fight against the evil personal maccouts of Duvalier and his despicable regime, perhaps so many people in that country would not have been killed.
Just my 2 cents.
Phoenix Woman @ 74
Thanks, Ron…
i have always taken the NRA as an astro-turf front organization for the gun and ammo industry.
the genuine and responsible gun owners have never had any reason to fear gun registration and shooter licensing, let alone the regulation on military weapons.
ashcroft spoke of respecting the privacy of gun buyers, INSTEAD of doing background checks on them to see if they were terrorists,
before Congress in sworn testimony,
after September 11, 2001.
Another point: gangs. How about effective anti-gang programs. LA (I think) just figured out that locking them up turns out to be counterproductive. Like duh, guess they never heard that there are gangs in jail.
If you trace back my comments, you’ll find the common thread is to identify the areas where guns area problem, and doing something about them, nota full frontal assault against gun owners.
Not completely OT:
Outrage of the day in gun marketing:
During a recent visit to a local gun store, I saw this package deal: a 9-millimeter Glock pistol, with 3 high capacity magazines, ammunition, and a concealment holster. The sign on the display?
“The Gangsta Special”.
For your consideration.
OT~ (SINCE WHEN IS FITZ OT?) Teeheehee
Fitzgerald Deserves Top U.S. Law Post, Comey Says (Update3)
By Patricia Hurtado and David Voreacos
July 20 (Bloomberg) — Patrick Fitzgerald won the convictions of four Osama bin Laden associates in May 2001. In March, he got Lewis “Scooter” Libby. Last week, he nailed Conrad Black.
Fitzgerald, 46, isn’t saying what he’ll do next in his career. Friends and colleagues say he probably will remain a prosecutor rather than join a law firm. One colleague says Fitzgerald’s destiny may include the top law-enforcement job in the country: U.S. attorney general.
“I think he would make a spectacular attorney general,” said former Deputy U.S. Attorney General James Comey, now general counsel at Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp., the world’s largest defense contractor. “He certainly is one of the very best federal prosecutors in America.”
Remaining a prosecutor would distinguish Fitzgerald from predecessors in the Chicago post. James Thompson became Illinois governor and chairman of Chicago’s Winston & Strawn. Dan Webb succeeded Thompson as chairman of the law firm, whose partners earn more than $1 million a year. Fitzgerald, son of an ex-Park Avenue doorman, makes $145,400. Yesterday, he eliminated one option, telling a radio show host he won’t run for public office.
Fitzgerald “doesn’t look at any of these cases as a springboard for something else,” said David Kelley, a former U.S. Attorney in New York who ran that office’s Organized Crime and Terrorism Unit with Fitzgerald. “He’s drawn upon his own innate sense of what is right and wrong.”
Local Success
Fitzgerald, who has held his job for almost six years, declined to be interviewed by Bloomberg News. His spokesman, Randall Samborn, wouldn’t discuss Fitzgerald’s career plans.
A girl can dreamFITZ
eCAHNomics @ 86
The most effective anti-gang program would be an economy that doesn’t sap the life out of the lower and middle income classes. Historically, a top-heavy distribution of wealth and gang mentality at the bottom are kissing cousins.
Biodun @ 24
has to do with the creation of a militia, when there was no standing US armed forces to fight a possible revival of British (or any) tyranny. The later establishment of the National Guard and US armed forces has rendered the Second Amendment obsolete.
Absolutely. The 2d Amendment simply does not say what most people think it says.
It is as irrelevant today as the Third, which says citizens can’t be forced to quarter soldiers.
The horribly deficient wording and poor punctuation of the 2d Amendment is responsible for an awful lot of death.
EvilDrPuma @ 90
That’d be a start!
yellowdog jim @ 85
excellent point.
EvilDrPuma @ 89
That sounds radical.
EvilDrPuma @ 90
I absolutely agree. During the Clinton years so many more people had jobs and, in my area at least, crime went way down.
EvilDrPuma @ 90
Education? Pre-school? Nutrition programs? etc.
Speaking of guns, there’s a wonderful 10′ sculture in the U.N. plaza of a hand gun with the barrel tied in a knot. Very effective image.
Meanwhile, Ashcroft’s own “interpretation” is not surprising:
and i should have added, to my militia comment, that i am not pro-gun…….many friends have tried to get me to keep one, no go……..even had a friend who is a gun dealer offer to GIVE me a gun and lessons…….nope, no thanks…
our crime rate here is so low because EVERYONE, every single person i know of, has a gun here….you heard me right……..noone in their right mind would burgle a house around here…….small college town/city and lots of rural…….i don’t know if lots of people in town have guns, only know a few people that live in town……
my gpa and uncles owned guns, grew up watchin’ my gpa take care of his, even got to target practice, but anything can go wrong, and i don’t want to be a party to it……
dmac @ 78
Well, think back to Ruby Ridge; Oliver North giving instructions on how to shoot ATB agents on his radio show, the stories about Clinton black helicopters…
But the Ruby Ridge situation started under GHW Bush.
If your friends were interested in defending the Constitution, I would have expected them to be more active under GW Bush than Clinton. Certainly the Constitution was and is under much greater threat.
Then there’s this:
ccmask @ 9
Thanks — bookmarked it, and rec’d it too!
dmac @ 98
I think you would have a rough time proving a cause and effect relationship between the number of guns in you community and low crime rates. My guess is that the nature of the community – small town/rural – is a big factor as well.
selise @ 92
NRA members receive a bi-wwekly magazine, called American Rifleman. It is chock full of ads by the personal armament industry. There are sometimes helpful articles on shooting, gun safety, historical weapons and design trends, but they’re mixed in with a lot of articles and tid-bits to stoke the fantasies of your average American
gun nutcitizen. The mag and the organization, were pretty late to welcome African-Americans and other minorities to their ranks, and if you can find issues dating up to the late 60s, their feature “The Armed Citizen,” was always very racist.That’s a nice bit of good news. I was trained to use firearms while in the military, but I never have seen any need to keep them lying around the house. I have no use for the NRA.
I personally think any person who feels a need to keep firearms as self-defense is living in fear of the unknown. I despise the NRA for the way they push guns as the one size fits all solution to all of societies problems.
GordonM @ 99
There actually are black helicopters. They fly over my ranch in Texas frequently (the ranch lies in some kind of helicopter flight pattern, nothing to do with me); anyway I see them often. They are totally black. I don’t know who they are, but they do exist.
Finally, there’s this, which the discussion in this thread is a great example of:
I own a selection of guns for the same reason I own a selection of tools – one size does not fit all situations. Having said that, and as an former NRA member (before they went bat shit crazy) I am all for reasonable regulation. In addition to 100% background checks, I think training should be mandatory before the first gun purchase. NC passed that regulation years ago for hunting (that sure knocked down the I-didn’t-know-officer BS) and I’m for making it universal.
Why own guns? We live in a large and rural county, so by the time the sheriff shows up, you’re a statistic. As a result, my wife from a no-gun suburb insisted that I select a proper gun and train her to use it. That training includes in the event of a break-in, retreat to the bathroom with the gun and a phone. Call 911 and let the burglar have the stuff – it can be replaced. If they try to come into the bathroom, they’re after us, and we have the right to defend ourselves.
I think the territory I’ve described – in between the all-guns-all-the-time fanatics and the no-guns-none-of-the-time fanatics – is where most Americans are.
Works for me.
selise says at 64-i agree. part of this is, i think, the cultural divide between those of us who see guns as a tool (mostly rural?) and those of us who see guns as a weapon (mostly urban/metro?).
perrrrrrrrfectly said………
selise @ 92
thanks.
Who is making the money?
Who is increasing their profits if we slaughter each other?
I feel we may safely presume that the NRA’s leadership are bought dogs
OR
the prototypical self-delusional true believers.
and they are being USED to manipulate the gun owners largest organization to make selling more guns and ammo their highest priority.
Which gun owners want criminals, psychotics and terrorists to have a “right to bear arms”?
How many gun owners really see the police as the enemy?
“The government came and took all our guns … “
this ain’t Haiti.
And not because the NRA has been in the way.
LS @ 106
How far are you from Camp Mabry? I know for a fact that 6 land there at least once a day. Assume they also take off, but never when I’m watching.
dmac @ 98
Yup. I’m rural. Front door lock busted years ago and I’ve never fixed it. Key to the car is usually in the ashtray (when I’m home). Most of my neighbors are the same way.
Grew up here in AZ in a gun household. My father was a Game Warden & Wildlife Biologist for AZ, NV & CA Game & Fish and retired from the US Forest Service. He taught fire arm safety courses and I was a certified fire arm safety instructor at 13yrs old.
My father renounced the NRA when they pushed for automatic weapons. As a WWII Marine Vet he sees NO reason for semi or fully automatic weapons. Quote Katymine’s Dad…”their only purpose is to kill people and linking them to hunting is one BIG lie”
AZ is a big gun state, legal to carry everywhere except in bars (another story later) and businesses post by their doors …”NO fire arms allowed” and when they do, the Repug AZ legislature made business put in gun safes at the check in door.
TexB @ 110
But you guys are in Texas – I was talking about the United States. /wink
TexB @ 110
I’m 30 miles SW of Austin near Wimberley. They generally fly from NE to SW or they fly in a large circle from NE to SW to SE. Sometimes just one, sometimes several together. Solid black, no numbers, no emblems. They are bigger than the Blackwater helicopters.
I have some of the dumbest neighbors in the world. About a month or two ago, a couple of blocks away from our shop, there was a guy who called the police because someone threw a rock through his window. When the police showed up and the guy showed them the broken window, the cops smelled marijuana. It was a grow house. In fact, there were 3 or 4 of them together and they all got busted. I just had to share that.
GordonM @ 113
LOL
Ed*ard Teller at 21,
If I’m reading this right, GOP perfidy is spot on. Median income retreated under Nixon, Reagan and the boy king.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www…..c/p02.html
ccmask @ 115
LOL
LS @ 116
In fact, we might be living in the “first state” of “the Homeland“…;>
dakine says at 72″Well you are up in the frontier country where ownership makes far more sense than in the urban areas of the east coast.”
i think if i lived in the city i might be inclined to have one……*****how could they? alert*******——nine teenaged boys gang-raped a mother in front of her 12 year old son……yep, i think i would be keepin’ a gun……for sure……and i am anti-gun due to accidental tragedies i was privvy to, not fun……guns are too dangerous for me, but if i lived in the city again, i would have one……..
LS — I am betting those are air nat’l guard.
GordonM @ 114
Some folks say, Oklahoma? You gotta get shots and a passport to got there. ;0)
A number of years ago I was driving to DC with my daughter, who suggested we listen to Rush as we drove along. Rush was droning along about guns, when he takes a caller. This guy starts off agreeing with Rush, then says he wants more weapons, and points out that having guns is supposed to give the citizenry a chance to defend themselves against a despotic government. So he wants a couple of 105 Howitzers and some similar weapons, because the army really outguns his converted automatic rifles. Rush stutters a bit, rants and cuts the guy off and goes to commercial, which seems to last about 5 minutes, then comes back on to recite some bogus reasons why I cannot have a 105 howitzer. And I really, really want one, and some 3.5 inch rocket launchers too!
EvilDrPuma @ 41
I’ve got one troop quartered in my apt, but I did agree to that. Family and all.
GordonM @ 112
My country house is in a rural area that’s quickly exurbanizing. Still lots of gun owners. Not a lot of crime. Some drugs in town, some B&E but that’s mainly in town too. Often leave my door unlocked. Any even though there are several prisons within spitting distance, the last thing I’d want is a gun. Wouldn’t practice often enough to assure that the escapee couldn’t wrestle it from me. (Ditto pepper spray.) Instead, I had a bolt lock installed on the basement side of my basement door, which is near my bedroom. If I hear someone breaking in, I’ll flee to the basement & lock the door behind me. There’s an outside door to my basement that I could use to escape if that seemed wise. The only problem is that cell phone transmission from the basement is iffy, and I don’t have a land line in the house.
TexB @ 125
Not quite the same thing, no.
PW,
Good for linking economic status to the fear lobby. Might I add the fundamentalists? You could occasionally reason with them in my youth, but like the NRA, they’ve gone bat shit crazy, too. They’re selling the same product – fear.
I’ve often pondered the irony of fundamentalists preaching “times will get worse” and their Republican buddies delivering for them.
If your sixteen year old kid has a gun in his bedroom and kills some people with it, who’s fault is it?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
Legally or morally?
TexB @ 130
Both. ;0)
TexB @ 122
I agree, I used to live near an airport and the National Guard trained there routinely, I always figured the black helicopters were available for training in. at the time. And they were black helicopters.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
Clinton’s.
To me, this claim smacks of guilt-by-association:
And, in fact, the cited TruthDig story establishes only this association:
It should be noted that the ACLU is counted among the groups that are concerned about the events at Waco and at Ruby Ridge, e.g., this 1995 statement by Laura W. Murphy, Director ACLU National Washington Office:
I agree that the NRA is rabid about access to weapons, but I’d place the major blame for the justice-through-firepower message, on which young men grow up in this country, on the entertainment industry: movies, TV, and video games.
diogenes @ 108
Well said. My wife refuses to even hold a firearm, let alone learn how to use one safely, prudently and accurately.
I’ve gotten called twice to answer MN Gop questionaire. Both times the same questions, guns, gays, abortion. the same old. I was asked if I support the 2nd amendment or gun control. I said both.
TexB @ 130
legally, it depends upon the state. morally, it is your fault as well as that of the kid.
gordonm at 76 says-”I live in Maine which has the highest per-capita gun ownership rate, and the lowest murder rate in the nation (less than 1/3 rd the national average). I don’t own one, but I’ve had to call one of my neighbors to come shoot a rabid raccoon hanging around my house (when my son was about 4).
OTOH, almost all of those guns are hunting rifles, and we have strict tests to get a hunting license, (including mandatory safety classes) and very strict regulations.”
too funny!!!!!! i had a rabid raccoon, and the wildlife officer was on another call, so the lady said, use your gun and shoot it, i said i don’t have a gun, she said DON’T YOUR NEIGHBORS?????? in this attitudey voice, like i said, EVERYONE around here owns a gun…..luckily my neighbor had a shotgun, he shot it, i had to bag it, that was the deal…….
and i have to think, if every criminal knows that the possibility of the home owner having a gun is high, they look for another crime to commit…i know that’s true around here……
we have mandatory hunter safety classes here, too…….
AZ Guns in Bars bill…. My Repug state senator Huppenthall is a real winner….. he wrote and sponsored a bill to make it legal to carry a side arm into a Bar. Yep that is those establishments who serve alcohol. The line was that the current law prevents law enforcement officers from eating in establishments who do serve food but are rated more as bars (when a specified percent of their business is in serving drinks vs food) while on duty.
This bill was a big deal, lots of controversy over it and it was a HOT item. My district Democrats even started a recall campaign to get that guy out of office due to this bill. Repug voters in my district were eager to sign the recall petition (too bad it was summer and could not get enough signatures to get it on the ballot)
What killed the bill was a bar shooting in Tempe near ASU. It was the very scene that opponents of the bill AND it occurred one week before the election. Guess what…. the bill was voted down in defeat!
Ed*ard Teller @ 135
my sister was home alone, heard a noise and inadvertently blew a hole in the wall trying to load the gun. cuidado
ccmask @ 115
I’ll share that one evening last year, I heard a police car (and I live in a very rural place) racing up one of the roads right by my place..unusual…then about 5 minutes later, I heard a bunch of automatic gun shots…then silence…I got scared and called the sheriff to report that I was worried something bad had happened, they didn’t ask my name or number or anything, etc.,..I hung up the phone…about 5 minutes later, I get a call that the cops are at my gate and it’s locked, and want to come in!! I said sure, the gate looks shut, but it’s open come on up, and they did, and I told them I was worried somebody might have shot at the police and told them what I had heard. They were really nice actually, and left…they called me back later and told me everything was okay…which I thought was very nice of them.
Elliott @ 132
A wing-nut told my bodyguard that he hasn’t seen a black helicopter since Clinton left the White House and W forced the UN armies back into Canada.
ironranger @ 136
I once made a small donation to GOP to get on their mailing list so I could see what they had to say. I filled out one questionaire. A short time later, the results were sent, and I could tell that they had excluded my response.
FWIW, some original intent regarding the 2nd Amendment.
“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government”
– Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
– Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
Ed*ard Teller @ 142
come to think of it… ;)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 3
Arrggh – blerp. I suppose, but did you have to?
Ed*ard Teller @ 141
You have a bodyguard!!??
LS @ 147
Don’t you?
The quote from the second amendment is often used as a means of discounting the private ownership of firearms. Yet when one reads the writings of the country’s fathers, particularly Jefferson and Madison, one could see that they intended for the ownership of guns to be an individual right to protect the citizens from a government that would dare to impose tyranny on the common people.
I pose that the problem lies not in the ownership of guns but in the irresponsible ownership of guns and the lawlessness of American society in general.
When the rule of law is disregarded and enforcement of those laws is lax, then criminals and violent offenders have no deterent to their heinous actions.
In the riots that took place in Los Angeles following the infamous Rodney King verdict, the chief of police said that his department had no obligation to protect individuals from crime. Gun sales soared, even by those most opposed to private ownership of guns, because the defense of the family is a higher value.
What is needed is the vigorous prosecution of existing gun laws, including against those who have lost or have had stolen their guns due to insecure storage.
We already have laws mandating jail time for crimes involving the use of guns but the overcrowded court dockets and the need to plea bargain have avoided prosecuting some of those offenders.
I hold the right to defend my family and my nation as a sacred trust and I am willing to use any and all means to do so.
TexB @ 147
Oh yeah, yeah. I have Arthur, Moon, Bear, Peanut, Ben, and PJ. Arthur weighs 200lbs, so don’t mess with him, okay…and he slobbers a lot, so he’ll slime any potential threat.
dmac @ 138
I’ve had to call police (NYS variety, the town has no police force) twice, once for rabid raccoon, once for deer that had been hit by a car & had a broken leg. Didn’t mock me for not having a gun, but the deer situation was pretty astonishing. It was about 10pm & quite dark. The deer had made its way into the (large) front lawn of a neighboring house. The officer got out his hand gun & opened fire, missed a couple of times. And all this without warning the homeowner of what was going on. If someone had opened the door to find out, they might have been shot by the cop.
ls eloquently says-”My ex-LS and his entire family were victims of the Papa Doc regime. First they took all of the guns from the citizens, then they purged and murdered those who were not on Duvalier’s side. Thirty members of his family were brutally murdered and hauled off on pick-up trucks to their deaths; including a grandmother who was thrown onto the truck with her rocking chair in which she was sitting at the time on the porch of their house. They were shot, bludgeoned, etc. to their deaths. His father and uncle were arrested and thrown in jail; his uncle, a General in the Army, was tortured. His cousin, who attempted to overthrow Duvalier and his murdering thugs, was publicly hung and it was shown on national TV.
Had the people been able to fight against the evil personal maccouts of Duvalier and his despicable regime, perhaps so many people in that country would not have been killed.
Just my 2 cents.”
thanks for sharing that………
LS @ 150
My kid is a brown belt in karate. My nephew is in the army, and my niece will talk their heads off.
eCAHNomics: I have no idea how I got on a gop call list. I sure didn’t contribute. Altho, I wouldn’t put it past one of my kids. They have warped senses of humor. Once one of them left a magnet on my fridge with picture of bush & a heart circling his head.
The last gop call was last spring & it irritated me so much I the MN gop & asked them why they aren’t asking questions that really affect people’s lives such as the war, health care costs, etc. I suppose I’m off the call list now.
My house is quiet. I’m going to try for a nap. See y’all later on.
Second that.
Ed*ard Teller @ 135,
It is a difficult decision not to be taken lightly. There are adverse consequences to both decisions, and I understand why your wife made her choice. I freely admit the possibility I am less enlightened.
Oklahoma kiddo,
If the parents were either careless securing their guns, or armed the kid carelessly, they should face civil and criminal action. Ruthless enforcement of that would train parents to take more responsibility.
I’m for private gun ownership. I’m just as for major ownership of the consequences.
Cumulus @ 149
And, if the people are going to stand up to a would-be tyrant they can’t be limited to semiautomatic weapons. (So, be the first in your ‘hood to have your own personal nuclear deterrent.)
TexB @ 155
Have a good one, TexB. Sweet an’ all.
diogenes @ 157
;0)
ironranger @ 154
My kid would never do something like that. He’s very much on the dark side (bad parenting, dontcha know), but he still lives at home at age 26.
LS @ 147
I do, but it is sort of a long-standing joke. My best friend in Alaska worked for me when I cleaned up the corruption and idiocy rampant at the Whittier Small Boat Harbor back in 1977. My assistant before him was sort of deranged, insisting we should always be armed. The most dangerous people there for my help and for me, though, were the politicians, developers and mllionaires who had gotten used to never paying their bills, screwing each other over and not taking care of their equipment. After one well-known Anchorage developer, a guy named Pet Zamarello, chased me up a boat lift ladder with a Greek knife between his teeth – I’d refused to take his $100 bribe to put him ahead of others waiting for a lift – my assistant told me I needed a bodyguard to protect me from the millionaires. I named my friend. He’s never surrendered the title.
gordonm says at 100-”Well, think back to Ruby Ridge; Oliver North giving instructions on how to shoot ATB agents on his radio show, the stories about Clinton black helicopters…
But the Ruby Ridge situation started under GHW Bush.
If your friends were interested in defending the Constitution, I would have expected them to be more active under GW Bush than Clinton. Certainly the Constitution was and is under much greater threat.”
oh, they don’t agree with those examples at all…….
and yes, they are involved and vocal, are not for bushies…are genuinely worried about the constitution………not for dems either………due to their corporate ties…….
haven’t talked to them in a while. out of touch, not in the same circles, but a few of them call into the local radio show here…….
is a rare bunch, but they are definitely militia……..
Wigwam,
So far, the Iraqi’s are doing a pretty good job with pistols, rifles and IED’s tying down a nuclear superpower.
Look, overthrowing our government by force is both unnecessary and crackpot(at this point), but suppose Guiliani wins in ‘08. And another fascist in 2016.
Not so farfetched, is it?
The Founders knew what they were talking about.
Ed*ard Teller @ 162
Just too good; still laughing and scoping my area.
It always comes back to parental responsibility. Or lack of it. And in most cases, I find, that is the case.
I don’t understand how the kind of weapons that most people own are of any use whatsoever in combatting a government that has become oppressive, when you consider the general overwhelming-ness of the huge, trained and powerfully armed force that government can muster. As an argument for keeping weapons, I think it is pretty much irrelevant.
and i’m probably gonna be epu’d……i’m only on #100……..i’m on dialup, so it takes forever if i comment, then takes longer commenting back, and get way behind, which is why most of the time i lurk.
great post pw!!!!!!! phoenix rises again!
and edward teller, was it you who was going to defend jaqrat in a comment that she thought defamed her? ends up, it wasn’t meant that way at all, quite the opposite, i saw the apology today, and i copied it so she could know…..the person was giving her a compliment……..if you want it…cuz you will probably see jaqrat at late night before i will…
eCAHNomics: I wiped off the heart circling bush’s head & drew a circle w/a line through it (like no smoking). The next time they were home, I discovered one of them had wiped that off & put the heart back. None of them are pro bush but I still don’t know which one did it.
When we visited one in another state I went to look more closely at an 8X10 framed photo on a desk & it was george & laura bush.
All this is strictly to amuse & tease their mom.
Fern @ 167
The most effective means of government oppression have nothing to do with the military, as we’ve learned again in the past 6 years.
Fern @ 167
I don’t know. The Iraqis “militants’ seem to be doing a pretty good job against our high tech military.
Ed*ard Teller @ 162
Great story!!
Any society where the few are armed and the many are not will end up with the armed few as a ruling class. The reason we need to preserve the right to keep and bear arms (and not just with government approval) is for the next time we need a revolution. Where would George Washington have been if the colonists could only have weapons as part of the King’s army?
The government should be at the mercy of the citizens, not vice versa. That is the true purpose of RKBA. The founders who fought an armed rebellion knew that. We had better not forget it, because if the government stops holding itself accountable to us, we will have to *make* it accountable.
eCAHNomics @ 169
Precisely. Rendering arming the citizenry against the government irrelevant and meaningless.
Fern @ 167
In Iraq, U.S. forces are falling to snipers, IEDs, and now EFPs. Sniper rifles and hunting rifles aren’t that different. IED and EFPs are not so difficult to fabricate (so I’m told).
ironranger @ 169
Unfortunately, my son isn’t kidding. He really believes you can bring bring democracy at the point of a gun and that a corportocracy equals “market economics.”
wigwam @ 174
Maybe. Except large parts of the country had already been pulverized into rubble.
fern at 103 says-”I think you would have a rough time proving a cause and effect relationship between the number of guns in you community and low crime rates. My guess is that the nature of the community – small town/rural – is a big factor as well.”
yeah, i know, but one day it occurred to me, blew me away the thought of it, that everyone i knew had a gun, and that the crime rate here is NIL……and it’s a college town, and a poor area..dirt poor, so you’d think that there would be a higher crime rate, not so….being fresh from the city, i asked my former neighbor about it–then, i lived out in the country, he was the former marshall for the area, and he said, if you knew that everywhere you were going to b&e(break and enter)had a gun pointed at your head, what would you do? made sense to meeeee.
“Precisely. Rendering arming the citizenry against the government irrelevant and meaningless.”
Tell that to Hamas.
Ed*ard Teller
Are you coming to YK2? Are you bringing your bodyguard? Attendees need to know if they must be on their best behavior around you.
Fern @ 177
That’s largely the result of U.S. firepower, which would be at the disposal of any tyrant taking over the U.S.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 178
How is that a parallel to the situation in the US?
diogenes @ 144
I have a gun near the front door next to my pitch fork, near the back door for shooting invasive critters once or twice a year, in the bedroom, and one next to my keyboard..
Only the varmint gun and my crossbow have seen use the past couple of years but knowing I have them especially in these pre fascist times comforts me a great deal. I would fight for the right to keep them as much as I will fight to stop needless war and occupations (meaning every day).
I don’t think much about protecting myself by taking up arms against tyrannical government.. However, when I do think about it, it is paramount in my mind when considering any idea that could lead to the end or weakening of our precious second amendment.
Guns have only saved my life and put food on the table..
eCAHNomics: That must make for some lively conversations at your house.
If a foreign country were to invade Oklahoma I can promise you we would figure out ways to make the attackers wish they were in hell rather that here. Of course they could nuke us.
ironranger @ 184
Long past talking. Interesting how one can avoid another person in a 2 BR apt. Told him I’m changing the locks in a month. We’ll see.
dmac @ 168
Hey dmac,
WHen are you gonna join facebook? I want to draw pictures back and forth on the graffiti wall.
New thread upstairs.
gordonm at 112 says-”Yup. I’m rural. Front door lock busted years ago and I’ve never fixed it. Key to the car is usually in the ashtray (when I’m home). Most of my neighbors are the same way.”
yep, only started locking the doors a few years ago……long story why……and keep the key in the car……i live in a kindof neighborhood, right out from the edge of town, but off the road, on an acre of woods…someone has to come down a long driveway to do any harm…cracks me up when friends and family visit, they lock their cars up every time we get out of it……weird……
everyone i know in the country doesn’t lock up, they have dogs to alert them of anything and a gun if it gets ugly……..but have never heard of an ugly……just a car broken down or someone who ran out of gas……..
i did have someone have the balls to come onto my property and steal copper pipe and sheets last year……figured it was the junk guys that i hired to haul off stuff from a few years ago…….creeped me out for a while, then got over it……just makin a buck…….and i was an easy score…….
Eureka Springs @ 183
One of the fascinating things about having a 2nd Amendment debate at a blog is that we’re chiming in from all over the country. Some in big cities, others in small towns. And some out in the sticks. What you describe is exactly the situation in which some of my friends who live further out find themselves.
My daughter was staying with some friends at their gold mine up by Ruby and a Grizzly broke into the house. Unfortunately, he started to chew on the shotgun before anyone could grab it. Our friend, Hope, snuck around behind him and hit him over the head with a huge frying pan. He went running back out the door, dropping the shotgun, which then blew a huge spray of holes along a wall. Nobody was hurt, and my daughter actually got some pictures. In the morning, Hope’s husband went to town, got a trooper, and they hunted the bear down.
A bear story….. TRex wanted obt the other night, but I only got around to it now.
So much discussion. A QUESTION: How many would feel safer if only government agents (police, FBI, etc.) and military personnel owned firearms?
echanamics—-”My country house is in a rural area that’s quickly exurbanizing. Still lots of gun owners. Not a lot of crime. Some drugs in town, some B&E but that’s mainly in town too. Often leave my door unlocked. Any even though there are several prisons within spitting distance, the last thing I’d want is a gun. Wouldn’t practice often enough to assure that the escapee couldn’t wrestle it from me. (Ditto pepper spray.) Instead, I had a bolt lock installed on the basement side of my basement door, which is near my bedroom. If I hear someone breaking in, I’ll flee to the basement & lock the door behind me. There’s an outside door to my basement that I could use to escape if that seemed wise. The only problem is that cell phone transmission from the basement is iffy, and I don’t have a land line in the house.”
maybe a tazer????????
eCAHNomics @186: That sounds difficult for you. Maybe in time that will change. I have a close relative that went to a fundie college for awhile & drove everyone in the family nuts with his religiousity. He got disenchanted (or went cold turkey on the kool-aid) & left that part of his life far behind.
Here we go: Another thread! http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..orthfield/
Oklahoma kiddo:
I have a ‘thing’ about bow and arrow, and it’s a history for me. I’ve waited for you to respond, and now I am.
It’s about my history on a small property that was ‘Private property and No Hunting Allowed.’ And I tore down deer stands and posted signs after my father’s and uncle’s death. I hate bow and arrow even more than guns: you have to wait for them to die.
Smaller property here now: but the memory of all of that will be with me always.
I hope that you understand.
elliot at 140=”my sister was home alone, heard a noise and inadvertently blew a hole in the wall trying to load the gun. cuidado”
that’s what i’m afraid of doing!!!!!
ET – Great story! just occurred to me that I described a life (in a country home) with guns that is so normal for so many.. Guns have always been around, except, when I lived in the city and even when I started my first business in the lower Haight Ashbury near dangerous housing projects and needle exchange programs.. it never occurred to me to carry or keep a gun in my store.
Wonder if the gun oil had animal fat in it which could have attracted the bear to do such an odd thing?
*still laughing, great story*
thanks for this column.
from time to time i have asked myself why the NRA is NEVER mentioned in weblog posts.
this is the first i have ever seen.
a closer look at the nra’s financing
and the web of beneficiaries of nra political actions would be most enlightening.
i suspect the circle of beneficiaries is rather small -
nra officials themselves,
some american politicians,
american gun manufacturers and,
surprise, foreign gun manufacturers.
small arms munitions manufacturers, sellers, and shippers to small wars and large around the globe may also be benefiting from nra activities.
and funding the nra.
yeah, i know i’m epu’d but i’m responding just the same====
ecahnomics at 151 says-”I’ve had to call police (NYS variety, the town has no police force) twice, once for rabid raccoon, once for deer that had been hit by a car & had a broken leg. Didn’t mock me for not having a gun, but the deer situation was pretty astonishing. It was about 10pm & quite dark. The deer had made its way into the (large) front lawn of a neighboring house. The officer got out his hand gun & opened fire, missed a couple of times. And all this without warning the homeowner of what was going on. If someone had opened the door to find out, they might have been shot by the cop.”
ewwwwwwwww….hard to watch….the gang that couldn’t shoot straight? sounds like he didn’t have to use his gun too much and skipped target practice…….around here, lots of people would have shown up to put the deer out its misery, would have been in line for the deer meat……
Jonathan @ 191
i fully support private
responsible, rational, adult,
gun ownership.
and i still wouldn’t feel comfortable
IF the government had all the weapons.
But i feel that meaningful regulation, with licensing and registration, pose no serious threat.
i believe that amplifying the notion of such a threat SELLS more guns and ammo.
So the industry uses the NRA to amplify and inflame every possible fear for our personal security.
And where are the citizens’ rights to call in an air strike?
The aftermath of the Spanish Civil War, Franco’s government had all the guns, they are still plucking bodies out of remote execution sites, that killing of oposition was carried on for decades and is still telling in social discourse to this day, a division of victims and perpetrators is deeply, indelibly etched.
The gun culture in the US would lead any entity attempting takeover into a slaughter of unimaginable scale, Rwanda would look like a schoolyard scuffle by comparison, and the “authorities” would know who to look for and where to look for their “profiled” oposition and the mercenaries will be trained to brook no resistance, take no prisoners. This has already been practiced elsewhere and the results are known and improved upon, recall how many parallels to historical dictatorships already are in evidence as we speak.
Just something to think about, and be prepared for, the impossible has a strange way of happening.
ironranger at 154 says-”
eCAHNomics: I have no idea how I got on a gop call list. I sure didn’t contribute. Altho, I wouldn’t put it past one of my kids. They have warped senses of humor. Once one of them left a magnet on my fridge with picture of bush & a heart circling his head.
The last gop call was last spring & it irritated me so much I the MN gop & asked them why they aren’t asking questions that really affect people’s lives such as the war, health care costs, etc. I suppose I’m off the call list now.”
too funny!!!!! i wish i wasn’t epu’d and that you saw my comment….
my dad, an fdr democrat and methodist, and a man with a highly developed sense of humor, used to send anonymous things to me from convents and monasteries saying they were saying prayers and a mass was being said in my name,due to a donation in my name………i had no idea who was doing it……..it was when i was in my 20’s……then i figured it out…….
OFF topic
(unless we broaden the topic to “Personal Security”)
“Can you hear me now?”
gets a whole new meaning here:
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6140191.html
i heard about this here: http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/010683.php
i thought you should know.
and maybe tell everyone.
margot at 187 says-”
Hey dmac,
WHen are you gonna join facebook? I want to draw pictures back and forth on the graffiti wall.”
still debating on how to do it legally——remember, i was one of the first to join and got kicked off because of my ‘illegal’ name…….so, am in a quandry about it…..they want my real name…..dakine said use gma’s…….
i don’t know what the graffiti wall is!!!!!!!
dmac @ 204
i never gave them my ‘real’ name.
i posted my real-ish picture: it’s 2 years old.
(besides my Budhha-nature has no name.)
diogenes @ 144
Do military semiautomatic weapons count?
dmac,
Oh yes…I’d forgotten all about that!
I hope you find a way to join.
Graffiti wall is kind of like MS Paint, you can draw a little postcard-sized picture or just write graffiti or designs, whatever you want.
yellowdog jim at 205 says-”i never gave them my ‘real’ name.
i posted my real-ish picture: it’s 2 years old.
(besides my Budhha-nature has no name.)”
awwwwww i love what you said………in my first attempt at facebook, i posted a picture from last christmas!!!!! with my dog who had laser eyes from the camera………and yes, nature has no name……….i was going to quote, for you, from my daily dalai lama calendar from today, but it is buried in stuff on my table…….thanks for reminding me to unbury it…….i thought about doing that on fdl, like marion from savanna does every morning………but i don’t get up that early……..
Arnie @ 201
After the Spanish Civil War, Hilter invaded Poland. Guernica. Seem familiar?
margot at 207 says-”dmac,
Oh yes…I’d forgotten all about that!
I hope you find a way to join.
Graffiti wall is kind of like MS Paint, you can draw a little postcard-sized picture or just write graffiti or designs, whatever you want.”
that sounds TOTALLY COOL!
wow, hafta think about it………part of it is, i’m on dial up, and linking with everything and everyone would take profound effort……..and don’t know about that part……..
Twain @ 10
How exactly do you define an assault rifle?
Who do you know bought a bazooka?
I ask so I can respond rationally to your message.
Jonathan @ 191
I need look no further than Ruby Ridge for an answer to your question.
Weaver was a whack-job, sure enough. And according to Republicans, so is Kos, Jane, Digby, etc.
“First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.”
Pastor Martin Niemöller
I think those that assert that the militia (being personal) forget some very important things about the Constitution. The Constitution clearly states who is supposed to be responsible for organizing and supplying the militia…Congress. And specifically states that it SHALL BE GOVERNED by Congress and led by officers selected by the States.
Thus the Founders envisaged a militia in which there was order, registration of the participants under command, etc. The random “self-organization” of groups of armed men would have been considered highly dangerous.
Recall that the Constitutional Crisis that led to the revocation of the Articles of Confederation were events like the Shay’s Rebellion and Whiskey Rebellion – the militias were called up to SUPPRESS these uprisings.
The President becomes the Commander in Chief of the militia in times of war and insurrection. Those OUTSIDE that system are “insurrectionists”.
One can imagine that it won’t be Blackwater, but some collective of right-wing militia nuts fired up by the NRA that will be the ones “keeping order” after Bush and Cheney void the election. Maybe Blackwater-like companies will be the ones to “manage” this coup.
Bush has been very good at using the Constitution against itself. He’d just have to ignore that it is Congress that calls up the militias…and do it himself.
diogenes @ 144
Jefferson was well esconced as a diplomat in France when the Shays and Whiskey Rebellions occurred. Remember that Jefferson was NOT a signer or participant in the writing of the CONSTITUTION.
Lots of folks who were back watching the United States fray apart considered his statements as a bit “out-of-touch”. And his statements about how Democracies had to from time-to-time be fertilized by the blood of patriots and tyrants were ambiguous enough to suggest that the leaders of the Shays rebellion were the “tyrants” and the militias sent to suppress them the “patriots”.
Hamilton was referring to the need to have a WELL-REGULATED militia in lieu of a standing army to prevent invasion. He was NOT referring to a people’s right to rebel against the Federal government. I don’t think that he would have envisaged the ability of the Executive to usurp powers to the degree that Bush has attempted, however. He thought the checks and balances existed through impeachment, and the powers of the courts and Congress.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote.
– Benjamin Franklin
If the Dems go after our guns, they will surely lose again. And we will be stuck with the repugs, who will let us keep our guns, but little else.
I thought only the repugs were against the constitution.
The government has no “duty to protect” you as an individual. We are all responsible for ourselves and our family.
I’m a gun owner.
I am not an NRA member.
I vote Dem more often than not.
If you want to help the Repubs at the polls on ‘08, by all means, demonize gun owners and paint them all with the brush of the NRA.
This helps then immeasurably.
Sorry Phoenix Woman, but you make a shitty argument for NRA being the most evil lobbyist group. In fact the two you mention, Big Tobacco and health insurance I would say are much worse. Along with Big Oil, Big Coal, Big Pharma, Big God, Anti-choice, Anti-environment, Anti-voter, Anti-minority, Anti-gay, Anti-education and private security/military groups.
Curious, why does your link “A growing majority of Americans is now on the opposite side of the NRA on every important issue” take you to a page of random gun stats from the late 90’s. Is this a list of “every important issue”? The polls listed seemed to be small and random, and nothing supported your saying “a growing majority of Americans” There was no historical data listed to support “growth”.
As for you last line, they don’t represent the views of all Americans, nor do they “pretend” to. They represent their members, of which I am not. Stop speaking like Bush with the Evil crap.