Spencer Ackerman has a rundown of some of the ins and outs of procedural maneuvers in the Senate that I thought everyone might find helpful. He concludes thusly:
Looking beyond the day's vote, however, reveals a more complicated picture. After the Democrats lost the Iraq battle over the supplemental appropriation in the spring and didn't launch another fight against the war, many on the left were disillusioned with the Democrats. Antiwar liberals appear much more energized now, so clearly today's events had one positive effect for Reid: It appeared to shore up his support on the left again.
More importantly, by raising the Iraq debate in the summer, the Democrats have created something of a public expectation that September is the beginning of the end for the war. Even Fred Barnes's summation piece for the Weekly Standard is titled "McConnell Holds The Line; At Least Until September." The benefit for the Democrats of the July push, even the unsuccessful one, has been to redefine the debate over the war.
By forcing the discussion now, Dems forced Republicans into the fall-back position of saying, "The war should begin to end not now, but in September." That means it will be tougher for Republicans to continue to back the war come September -- Petraeus report or no.
Two weeks ago, it was hardly clear that September would be the beginning of the end, as opposed to a potential rallying point for Republicans when Petraeus comes to Washington. But thanks to how the July debate unfolded, come September the GOP's victory today could look like a Pyrrhic one.
The Republican strategy all along has been to fob off the responsibility for their own failures onto the Democrats. And, to that end, they have been avoiding any and all votes which make them put their support of said Bush Administration failures squarely on record. Thus, the constant obstruction and filibuster tactics -- they are voting to keep debate going, you see, and not to support the Bush Administration's failed Iraq policies -- that way there is no recorded vote saying "I support keeping the war going forever." because they all know that isn't popular.
But with the latest Democratic maneuver, the Grand Obstruction Party has had to stand on the floor of the Senate and speak in favor of the continued occupation of Iraq, in some sort of macabre lock-step dance of Republican Senators who looked like they wanted to be anywhere but standing in the well of the Senate and genuflecting to George Bush's many failures. And the ruse is blown. It's about damn time.
As Digby puts it:
This is one reason why I really hate calling the Democrats spineless. It's true that they sometimes are, but compared to their single cell invertebrate comrades on the other side they are super-heroes. The Republicans laid down for Dick Cheney's Unitary executive like a bunch of cheap hookers during fleet week with nary a thought for the constitution or even their own prerogatives....
And it continues to this day, even as their great leader has nearly destroyed their party and ruined the country.
Never make a bet that Republicans will do the right thing. You can't even count on them to act in their own self-interest --- witness their just tanking the immigration bill that will probably sink their chances of a real majority for many years to come. Their only purpose in government is to steal from the taxpayers, help their rich friends, cover up their leaders' crimes and destroy Democrats. That's it. That's all they do.
Grand Obstructionist Party: you stand for lock-step, spineless failure and obeisance to George Bush. Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, you've also spent the last six years and counting helping make America less safe. How's that working for you?
(Invertebrate Magazine photo via szczur.)
PS -- Bob Geiger explains the switched vote from Harry Reid, for those who had some questions about the procedural need for that.
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Bawk, bawk, bawk, splat!!
Zed?
Ho boy. KO will have another Special Comment tonight! ; )
Howdy.
Sorry, couldn’t resist. :~)
Cozumel @ 3
I don’t have cable, so will have to wait to watch it on msnbc.com.
Valerie
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/.....ivil-suit/
KO special comment about the Politization of the pentagon and their statements about HRC!
The Republican strategy all along has been to fob off the responsibility for their own failures onto the Democrats.
You mean that none of this is Bill Clinton’s fault? Who would’ve thunk it?
And I am with Digby on being sick and tired of the misogynistic “spineless” meme.
Has anyone noticed the Bush order repealing the 5th Amendment?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....06,00.html
ew Financial Tool for Iraq Fight
Tuesday July 17, 2007 9:16 PM
By JEANNINE AVERSA
AP Economics Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration announced a new tool Tuesday aimed at putting a financial squeeze on people who run networks that recruit and send would-be terrorists into Iraq.
President Bush unveiled an executive order that allows the administration to block bank accounts and any other financial assets that might be found in this country belonging to people, companies or groups that the United States deems are working to threaten stability in Iraq.
Bush cited the “unusual and extraordinary threat” to national security and foreign policy of the United States “posed by acts of violence threatening the peace and stability of Iraq and undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq and to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people.”
No person, company or group was designated under the order on Tuesday.
The order seeks to fill a gap in U.S. authority to use financial sanctions to go after such offenders.
White House press secretary Tony Snow said the order targets terrorist and insurgent groups, including those assisted by Syria and Iran, that are not covered by existing authorities.
“What this is really aimed at is insurgents and those who come across the border,” Snow explained.
They are already moving it to November…
BTW: The Treasury Department explains the scary Exec. Order:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/ar.....3.php#more
Even some of the headline writers are getting it: the AP wire story on Earhlink said that it was the GOP who was blocking the anti-war moves.
(Taking day off from work for dentist stuff - just cleaning - and a trip across the street from there to the doctor’s office to ask who much testing for RA runs. My most-senior-aunt recommended it.)
Cozumel @ 3
Re: Pentagon challenges Clinton’s Iraq talk
September.
Repug St. Vitus dance, you watch.
Have you given to the Wilsons fight for Justice yet? Please spread this around
The Wilsons Legal support Trust
http://www.wilsonsupport.org/
If you use the same Clinton did it meme that the republics are using today and apply it to the Clinton adminstration, I guess it was all bush 41’s fault.
I love digby, but she has a penchant for Friedmanesque mixed metaphor. Today it was jellyfish rending their garments, the other day it was salving our tears.
UPDATE II: Flashback — Judge John D. Bates, the judge who dismissed today’s suit, also dismissed the lawsuit over Dick Cheney’s energy task force records:
Judge John D. Bates of Federal District Court found that Comptroller General David M. Walker, the head of the General Accounting Office, did not have sufficient standing to sue the vice president.
Mr. Walker had asked the judge to order the White House to reveal the identities of industry executives who helped the administration develop its energy policy last year.
In declining to do so, and in dismissing Mr. Walker’s suit, Judge Bates said that granting the G.A.O. chief’s request “would fly in the face of the restricted role of the federal courts under the Constitution.”
I still think we should give everyone in the House of Represatives plastic silverware and a paper plate imprinted with “Set the Table for Impeachment.”
LS @ 10
And I suppose they get to decide who is doing that.
tbsa @ 17
Yeah, wasn’t it Bush 41 who encouraged the Shiites and the Kurds to rise up in rebellion, and then betrayed them at the last minute?
Kathleen @ 18
interesting NYtimes article today on the same
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07.....f=slogin.. naming some names
By forcing the discussion now, Dems forced Republicans into the fall-back position of saying, “The war should begin to end not now, but in September.” That means it will be tougher for Republicans to continue to back the war come September — Petraeus report or no.
Tougher for Republicans to lie? I don’t think so. This falsely assumes that the Petreaus report will not have ambiguities and wistful references to a yet more distant future. When September comes, January will be the new September. If Petreaus really does conclude there is irredemable FUBAR, he’ll be replaced, the report will be delayed a month, and the October report will talk about all the freshly painted schools and whatnot. I don’t think any of this changes the calendar at all, because the calendar is not based on reality.
Cozumel @ 12
Yea, why haven’t they frozen her assets yet. I mean geez…
Dave Chapelle next WH Press Secretary
http://politicalticker.blogs.c...../#more-916
brendan @ 16
Love it! I needed that!
realworld @ 24
think Congress will impeach if shrub starts seizing their assets? :P ok, I’m kidding, but hey, who knows?
I’ve posted this before today and do apologize but this line from today’s Hartford Courant editorial on Tuesday night’s efforts is just way too good:
My bold.
I want them to freeze all of Halliburton’s bank accounts.
“The Republican strategy all along has been to fob off the responsibility for their own failures onto the Democrats.”
Besides avoiding responsibility, fobbing off failure is the life strategy of George W. Bush. Republics truly are the Party of Bush.
Blub @ 22
Another question is what did any of these individuals have to say about Iraq?
SnarKassandra @ 29
Ding!
Their only purpose in government is to steal from the taxpayers, help their rich friends, cover up their leaders’ crimes and destroy Democrats. That’s it. That’s all they do.
Well, the wingnuts have had success at 3 of the 4. But, destroying Democrats is a failure.
I’ve lived under the Republican Turds, floating in the cesspool, for 27 of 42 years and…..
/I’m still here
//and stronger than ever.
dakine01 @ 28
My bold.
I am hoping someone gets through on the Diane Rehm news round up tomorrow morning to list Liebermanns lies that he told during the slumber party. He told some doozies!
drshow@wamu.org 1800-433-8850
I wonder about the chances of delay, delay, delay postponing an exit from Iraq till there is a Democrat in the White House and a Democrat Congress at thr same time there is (as one would expect) massive civil war. In this scenario, there are outbreaks of violence in other nations in the region which the Rovians characterizes as “a knife in the back” or some kind of variation on “Who lost China? It’s worked before.
Certainly, the Decider and his minions fall into the category of destabilizing Iraq, creating violent acts, and creating terrorism, etc., that isn’t hard to demonstrate. Maybe we should hold the Treasury’s feet to the fire and have Paulsen seize the assets of the Bush/Cheney cabal.
A bit more about Judge Bates
http://www.truthout.org/docs_0.....cheney.htm
I want to bury the GOP. And most particularly the nasty Bush political dynasty. Democrats are at bat. Bases are loaded. The score is 1-nothing; Bush. It’s the bottom of the last inning. The count is two strikes and no balls. And I want a homerun.
It’s time to break the spell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=627KJ1U1jPQ
dakine01 @ 28
My bold.
Dakine, thanks for sharing. Yes, I think one of the major benefits of the sleepover was that every American can find out exactly what their senators are saying to the other senators, vs. what they blurb on the news. IE revealing their real position.
I also want to thank Sen. Harkin to take some time to video an explanation of the procedures etc and to FDL for posting it. It really helped this household!
Kathleen @ 31
“They have oil. We want it. Get it for us. You owe us, Dick.”
…they sometimes are? No, they always are. The 19 hour filibuster was a stunt, just as the Republicans said. If they had a spine, the filibuster would still be going on, day after day, until the Republicans were forced to let the vote happen. But the Dems have no spine.
I also wish (I think some senators are) starting up the noise on the fact that we are CREATING more terrorism than we are DEFEATING.
Why didn’t we “finish the job” in Afghanistan? I guess we cut and run there!
Lew Koch @ 36
This scenario has been my great fear. And what I really believe they are planning for. Facists thrive on war. By leaving the Dems with an unwinnable situation (civil war in not only Lebenon, but Syria, Egypt, Pakistan and god-forbid, Bahrain and other Gulf-states–not to mention a worthless dollar and sky high oil prices), they see themselves moving back in in 2012 with all the power that the precedents of this admin set in place.
I PRAY that the dems in congress are paying attention, and that they do whatever is possible after 2009 to dismantle the fascist security apparatus set in place by the Cheney/Bush Junta. If not, I shudder thinking about the world that my daughter, my niece and their children will inherit.
No more war!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....E&NR=1
Judge Bates: Enforcer of the Unitary Executive Theory.
-GSD
Blub @ 40
Comma?
Think Progress
UPDATE #2: C&Ler JR (one of my legal eagles) just sent this email to me: Although it will ultimately be unsuccessful, why not now demand that Congress pass a law that will give Plame the right to pursue her case in court?
The Republican Congress did essentially the same thing regarding Terry Schiavo, remember? Of course Bush would not sign such a bill it but it will be further evidence for historians to write just how corrupt a president he was/is.
UPDATE #3 Melanie Sloan, of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, the Wilsons’ legal counsel has issued a statement you can read below the fold.
http://www.citizensforethics.org/
GSD @ 46
Republican Judges: lawyers for the powerful and the well-connected. And the rich.
Woodhall Hollow @ 42
Amen.
Perhaps it’s come to this. The best we can hope for is Bush and his boys handing off Iraq to my party come January 2009. Iran worries me.
Wilsons statement
“In response to the ruling, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson said today, “This case is not just about what top government officials did to Valerie and me.” Wilson continued, “We brought this suit because we strongly believe that politicizing intelligence ultimately serves only to undermine the security of our nation. Today’s decision is just the first step in what we have always known would be a long legal battle and we are committed to seeing this case through.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
I don’t think bush plans on leaving office.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 50
Me too.
Off subject, but….
Judge Amy St. Eve of the U.S. District Court told the 62-year-old member of Britain’s House of Lords that he had to stay either in the Chicago area or in the vicinity of Palm Beach, Florida, where he has a mansion.
He is to be sentenced November 30.
U.S. prosecutors had asked the judge to revoke the bond and take Black into immediate custody. They said he was a “four-time convicted felon” who could fight extradition if he returned to his native Canada and that he no longer has the assets to cover his bond.
The judge said she was keeping Black’s British passport, which he surrendered after his conviction last Friday. The judge did not require Black to wear an electronic monitoring device to keep track of his whereabouts.
“Black’s conduct from the outset of these proceedings has demonstrated a lack of respect for the conditions of his release and the entire judicial process,” said a motion signed by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald and filed before the hearing.
“Simply put, Black faces the potential of spending the rest of his life in a U.S. prison,” for a range of 24 to 30 years, it added.
The motion also said Canadian officials had confirmed that if Black, now a British citizen, returned to Canada, an agreement made in a U.S. court waiving extradition would not be enforceable under Canadian law.
It also said Black faces forfeiture of $6.1 million from the sale of his Park Avenue apartment and that he is in default on the mortgage for his Palm Beach property. Both assets were used to secure the bond.
Black was found guilty on three fraud counts and one count of obstructing justice in swindling former media giant Hollinger International Inc. Three fellow former executives were also convicted. Prosecutors said on Thursday that Black was guilty of more than $22 million in fraud.
Black is appealing.
After St. Eve sentences him in November, Black will likely be ordered to spend time behind bars, unless the judge is somehow persuaded that his appeal is likely to succeed, experts have said.
The major contribution to the far “right” of the Republican Party that Bush has accomplished is the stacking of the judiciary. St. Eve is only 42, an attorney for Starr during the Whitewater “investigations” and was a AUSA in N. Illinois.
Read this now: Black is GONE
Lew Koch @ 35
I know the delay aspect but most folks can see it is already a serious civil war that we’re in the middle of. And no matter what, the rethugs will attmept to paint it as Dems lost the war. I just hope we can avoid the visual of helicopters lifting off from the roof of the meebassy as things go to sh*t. That was the lasting mural from ‘nam that helped the Rs paint it as Dems and congress lost that war. REgardless of the reality
tbsa @ 52
hehe. Not sure how he could. As a general rule, wouldbe coup-plotters need to have the military ON their side… or at least have some military experience :)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 51
You should also worry about Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, and Bahrain. And that’s just for starters. Saudi Arabia is also a steaming kettle of contradictions, and given the right trade disruptions, could become earth’s living nightmare. I lived there for a time in 97, and know something of which I speak. Just for starters, China is about to replace the US as their primary oil customer…worth thinking about. Long and hard.
Which is why we need Al Gore as President in 2008. I think that he is the only candidate who really is capable of connecting the mass array of dots, not only with regard to global warming, but in terms of the stability of the planet’s political environment.
Who do these people think they’re dealing with?
AP - The top U.S. diplomat in Iraq said Thursday that Baghdad is making some political progress but faces considerable difficulty in the months to come to try to heal a nation long gripped by violence.
Bush has already flat out stated that Iraq is going to be the next presidents problem. He has no intention of doing anything to stop it.
This is why I would like the Dems to be able to force him. No dice, yet.
Woodhall Hollow @ 57
;0)
tbsa @ 52
I’ve wondered about this as well and then worry my head turns to tin *g* he’ll probably start ginning out EOs by the dozen next year.
Iran worries me too. What is this jumping from one war to the next? My mom told me not to open a new box of cereal until I finished the old one. Does he think our military is limitless? Is he going to start calling up the postal service for duty?
Get Tough @ 55
Yes! Fitz! enough of the fucking madness of the rich and powerful.
The law is not our enemy. At least not in the noblest sense of the word.
dakine01 @ 55
OMFG. I just cannot get over how more men and women die so some repuke can save his own asswipe career.
Re: Plame dismissal. WTF, that wasn’t the question, Master Bates. Of course you can rebut. The question was, “Is it appropriate for government officials to break the law, put our country at risk and ruin peoples careers for political gain”, you asshole. That’s just ok, I guess. Were’sa my pitchfork and torch?
“But there can be no serious dispute that the act of rebutting public criticism, such as that levied by Mr. Wilson against the Bush administration’s handling of prewar foreign intelligence, by speaking with members of the press is within the scope of defendants’ duties as high-level Executive Branch officials,” Bates said.”
Just read the Harriet Miers article at Raw Story. Cannon says we will lose (meaning: Congress) if we try to press the contempt issue. It will fail and therefore make Congress less effective in future actions.
Are we (meaning: We The People) going to be continue to be cowed by Republican threats and bully tactics from Richardheads like Cannon?
Bushco, et al has nothing but contempt for American citizens. I say press Harriet.
do-si-do @ 61
silly rabbit: Trix are for kids. no Lucky Charms for W.
Lew Koch @ 35
Lew, I keep thinking of this from Robert Dallek’s new book:
That conversation preceded 10,000 American deaths.
Today on Washington Journal Senator Kerry again brought up the idea of a Regional Peace Conference in the middle east.
The Democrats could push this idea…
In one half hour Senator Kerry blew through the AlQueda/9/11 myth(again), he called the Bush administration’s efforts to turn his military service into a joke as shameless,nailed down the “cakewalk in Iraq” zealots and called for the Peace conference in the middle east all within a half hour.
To think he could have been the President.
Worth the watch
http://www.c-span.org/homepage.....iveDays=30
Woodhall Hollow @ 62
But, Woodhollow, Black is going bye bye. Canada won’t extradict him if he skips over the border. He doesn’t have any assets to cover his bond. He is going to pull a Polanski/Rich and leave. He is not American, so he has NO incentive to stay in the US. Plus, he will probably get a less minute pardon from Bush, anyway.
In re #41,
the real stunt is that REPUBLICAN senators tell their constituency they are against the war and then do nothing constructive to end it.
I’ll take more stunts like Tuesday night to reveal the goopers for the warmongering bowing and scraping liars they are.
do-si-do @ 61
Yea the only thing worse than starting a land war in Asia is to start three.
I hope we can keep it at 2. Our military is being destroyed. We are going to have societal fallout from this for decades.
punaise @ 66
I’m frosted with these flakes.
dumbya @ 10
The “CERTAIN PERSONS” Executive Order does not say what Tony Snowjob is claiming. This piece of fascist garbage repeals the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Note the language, purported means “to allege or assert the appearance”. All that is needed is a “purported” claim that this law is being violated. This law condemns anyone who opposes the war in Iraq, and allows the Federal Government to steal everything that you own. Note that (indirectly) helping a victim of this law also condemns you. Shall I laugh or cry?
janda @ 71
Yea, all that “it’s not for me” crap.
do-si-do @ 69
The video clips of what the GOPers said need to be aired again and again from now until election time or until they concede a vote on the amendments.
I also believe that the delay strategy is not only to dump the crap on dems if they pull out, but to foist off the draft if they decide to stay. Because we will have to draft. JMHO
janda @ 53
Worried about Iran. Just the way the cakewalk folks want you to be about Iran. The majority of their repeated claims about Iran are unsubstantiated.
Go read Flynt Leverett on Iran. Flynt is a middle east expert and an ex-Cia analyst who served in the first Bush administration. He quit since he strongly disagreed with the Bush push for war with Iraq. flynt is the man to read about Iran
http://www.newamerica.net/pres.....n_and_iraq
http://www.newamerica.net/pres.....of_america
I would very much like to see Flynt Leverett come pay a visit to Firedoglake to discuss Iran.
Frank33 @ 73
Gotta go against the grain this one: It is based on the IEEPA, and only provides that individuals or other entities from supplying products, cash or other tangible support, to the insurgency in Iraq. It probably should have been drafted months/years ago. I know it smacks of over-reaching by the Bushies, and damn them for trying to do this all of the time, but this order is entirely benign, unless you are providing money/products/support of known insurgents currently in Iraq killing our soldiers
janda @ 75
Preferably with rebuttals aired at same time also. Notice how MSM only aired GOP objections to their filibuster.?
All this ‘inside the beltway’ bullshit won’t pull any weight with average Americans. But the one thing can cut thru the noise, on both sides…TILLMAN.
do-si-do @ 76
I’m with you on that one. If it will, as some suggest, take 2 years just to get out of Iraq once we decide to leave, there is no way the current military will be able to sustain it. B@$tards!
dakine01 @ 55
Though the visual is memorable, I honestly think that if it hadn’t been that, it would have been something else. I believe the more central problem was that the Dems did not anticipate the “stab in the back” rhetoric and fight against it effectively. We have the advantage this time that everyone (for now) knows that it’s Bush’s war, and he has a long record of incompetence that makes it easy for those who believed it could have been “won” but no longer do to blame it on that.
But we must be prepared to build on that advantage, and work to make sure that our officials understand that they have to be prepared for the inevitable Republican blame-shifting.
Woodhall Hollow @ 43
This is the meaning of the joke that Joe Biden tells, about his High School Baseball team. The centerfielder, Smith, dropped three easy fly balls in a row, picked them up and made throwing errors. The coach tells Jones to go in for Smith, and on the fist play, Jones makes an error, too. When he comes back to the dugout, the coach asks Jones what happened, and Jones says: “Smith screwed up centerfield so bad, nobody can play it!”
1,582 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Patriots:
Today’s ruling in the Valery Wilson suit should be the coup de grace to that Chiffon elephant myth of our egalitarian justice system and a rule of law defining our culture. The reality that our system of justice has been nothin’ but a mechanism for the consolidation of capital and an institution for social control of the majority by a tiny minority is now right in our faces…that reality can’t be ignored. The oligarchy is laughin’ at all of us who put our faith in reason and the law…their laughin’ as they make a block-buster movie that makes Judy Miller the savior of America.
We have been livin’ under a fascist regime empowered by the final arbiter of our justice system. The only cure for the disease our democracy suffers is MORE DEMOCRACY!! And the only way we get the treatment to the source of the infection is through mobilizin’ people nation-wide. There should be a permanent presence of demonstrators outside the offices of every single elected Democrat…there should be national demonstrations in every state capitol…there should be at least one day-long national strike against the regime this summer.
Please all you Firepup Patriots with your incredible intelligence and creativity…please step up and lead us great unwashed grunts outta the trenches. We can’t sit back and hope that a few lawyers and a couple a judges are gunna give us our country back…we hafta take it back!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY!!
Let me be specific. When I say I am worried about Iran, I don’t mean about what they can do to us. I worry about what ‘we’ (Bush) might do to them.
Redshift @ 82
We also need to figure out a way to make sure as few as possible from this admin are allowed to rehab themselves. We MUST make them pariahs. We have to make their actions hurt; otherwise the will come back.
Lou Costello @ 80
Lou, I couldn’t agree more. TILLMAN!!
Get Tough @ 71
I am sorry, ianal, but I thought that Canada only refused extradition in cases involving the death penalty, which clearly does not apply here. What am I missing?
(Being from VT, I have known Vermonters and Quebeckers who can’t cross the border due to friggen drunk driving convictions–and there are extraditions in other criminal matters…)
BigMitch @ 87
T I L L M A N !!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 85
That was loud and clear.
They chose Judith Miller wisely.
I have to ask a (probably naive) question.
From the point of view of the average American, would it actually be worse if Iran controlled the mid-east oil supply as opposed to Exxon-Mobile and B.P.?
“Mr. Judicial Nominee, are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Federalist Society?”
NorskeFlamethrower said,
I really like that line, Norske.
BigMitch @ 84
Biden said that? I have renewed respect for him. Too bad he is such a verbal gadfly and a tool for the credit card companies. He is capable, it seems, of some good.
LS @ 89
I couldn’t think of a finer tribute to the fallen hero than to have the coverup of his death be what finally opens the flood gate.
Poll: Forty percent of American voters believe the Israel Lobby has been a key factor in going to war in Iraq and now confronting Iran
This is a great website
http://www.cnionline.org/learn.....index2.htm
do-si-do @ 72
so chunky, you could stick a fork in them
WARNING TO MODERATERS:
RISK OF ISRAEL DEBATE GOING FROM YELLOW TO ORANGE.
PLEASE TAKE APPROPRIATE STEPS.
Ahamdinejad just met with Assad in Syria and they had a special guest appearance by Hizbollahs’ Nasrallah.
Needless to say, this must have the axis of evil lobby up in arms.
Ahamdinejad said he hopes Hizbollah has another victory this summer.
Survey says the region is moving closer and closer to a multi-state conflagration.
-GSD
Get Tough @ 78
I respect your naive opinion and I totally disagree. What you say is NOT what “CERTAIN PERSONS” says. The “insurgents” are fighting for their country, because our soldiers are killing them and stealing their oil. Our soldiers would be punished themselves if they did not kill for the Bush Crime Family. Even if I was supplying aid to the 19 year old Iraqis, who are killing our 19 yer old kids, THE LAW MUST BE FOLLOWED.
You seem quite eager to give up the Bill of Rights. It is Commander Guy who is creating and continuing the violence. But he will not be punished by his own made-up law.
Kathleen @ 96
Wow, that many? Joe better back off the pedal; I feel he has always taken the general public a little lightly when it comes to this crap.
*t*i*l*l*m*a*n*
BigMitch @ 99
What does this mean?
TARGET IRAN
Scott Ritter and Seymour Hersch on Regime change in Iran
http://www.informationclearing.....e15968.htm
janda @ 91
I have never been worried about Iran. Never. I spent a lot of time there during the 80s, and it is not a country which will easily go to war over anything other than there own interests. They have a long cultural memory–and even the most ardent islamist identifies himself or herself as being Persion, rather than as a Muslim. And it is worth watching the Afghan Ambassador’s interview on talkingpointsmemo. They are actually playing a constructive role in Afghanistan, as they have all along.
As someone who has lived in and studied the Islamic world, the Shiites are a very different kettle of fish. Which is worth pointing out, because the US is, on one hand supporting the Sunni nut-cases in Saudi Arabia (who are terrified of Iran) and opposing the Sunnis in Iraq–who they are now calling Al Qaeda in Iraq. The dot which connects all of this, is of course, Osama bin Laden. Whose mother is a member of a Sunni fundamentalist family in Syria, who have been being rounded up and executed since the 80s. One could go on and on about the stupidity of it all…
Which is why we need Joe Wilson as a Senator.
LS @ 89
I wish I could agree with everyone about this, but I can’t. Before he died, I didn’t even know who Tillman was. And beyond the fact that he and his family have been abused and pimped out by the Bushies for propoganda, I really have no particular interest in his case. I should also mention that I did follow the OJ case somewhat. I just don’t see Tillman generating the great interest we need to make a difference. That said, I hope you all are right.
janda @ 94
Janda - AMEN! Everyone who loses a child needs to know there is a meaning in the death as well as the life! I pray that the Tillman death is uncovered - and SOON!
-from a mother who lost her only son in the 1st Gulf war.
yellowsnapdragon @ 106
The NFL fans who normally don’t follow politics know who Pat Tillman is. This is the type of story that gets their attention and makes them think about the ramifications of the war
Frank33 @ 100
Wow, too many logical jumps to count. No, I am not keen on giving up on the Bill of Rights. The US is in War in Iraq. I don’t like it as much as you apparently don’t, but we are there. And this order deals with individuals supplying aid, from the United States, to individuals in Iraq that are killing United States soldiers. “Insurgents” in this context are people waging war in Iraq, be it Shia death squads, Sunnis or other factions being supported from surrounding countries. Yes, it appears to be over-reaching, and Yes, the Bushies are known to do this, but this Order is not as destructive to the Bill of Rights as claimed.
also on Iran, I’m sure somebody’s already posted this link on past threads, but I thought the Guardian analysis last week was superb
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/.....15,00.html
shrub is not prepared to leave Iran “unresolved”.. so he WILL move to strike them before he leaves office. I think that it’s basically inevitable, and our strategizing should be about what to do when he does start bombing.
1,582 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen BigMitch:
Hey big guy, what’s this about some debate goin’ “from yellow to orange”? This is a free speech zone for folks…the moderators are NOT keepers of the fences ta keep the free speech from gettin’ too free, or are they?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…DEMOCRACY IS AN IDEA WORTH FIGHTIN’ FOR!!
Get Tough @ 103
Mitch, still out there?
If I may, I want to write a little about Al Gore’s book, Assault on Reason, after reading the first few chapters. I think its tangentially relevant to the thread, and I want to get a few observations “out there” for people to react to.
Gore seems to use the phrase “the public forum” dozens of times. He seems to have in mind primarily the meaning given to this phrase by Jurgen Habermas (e.g., p.26). I see the evolution of this extending from the “town square” (remember the “town crierd”? No, I’m not THAT old, but I did read about it) to. . . the Internet!
Gore also writes about the “market-place of ideas”, which he links to the “public forum” concept (p. 13). He describes the marketplace of ideas as having 3 components on p. 13:
1. Open to every individual, with no barriers to entry except the requirement of literacy. “Open” also applies to providing ideas, as well as receiving them.
2. The fate of ideas is determined by a “meritocracy of ideas”, implicitly referring to the metaphor of cream rising to the top (a metaphor unfamiliar to anyone who knows only homogenized milk).
3. An unspoken duty to search for general agreement.
Gore focuses on Television, but I want to focus on the Internet in general, and FireDogLake in particular. How do we stack up?
First, #1 depends on “net neutrality,” which ought to be part of the First Amendment. If you didn’t appreciate the importance of net neutrality before, you ought to see it when placed in this context. The FDL town square is not entirely “open,” except in the comments. However, this is analogous to a newspaper, in which not everyone gets to write the news stories, but anyone may write a letter to the editor.
Blogs like DailyKos and MyDD are more open, in that commenters can set up their own blogspots, if they register, and their diaries receive notice where everyone can see it in a sidebar on the main page after they are written, until enough new diaries have been written to shove your diary out into the void. And if lots of commenters like your diary, it can receive further hype as a “recommended” diary. This greatly aids the process of the cream rising to the surface. FDL does not have a comparable function.
Second, I think the concept of “meritocracy of ideas” needs more work. Ideas are not autonomous atoms or molecules, obeying blind laws of chemistry like the fat molecules in cream. Whether or not the best ideas rise to the top depends a lot on what the marketplace of ideas looks like– who owns it, who makes the rules, and who can participate.
In the best marketplaces of ideas, diversity is recognized, and valued. We regularly pillory the wingnuts for being so dependent on scripted GOP talking points, and there is some merit to that. However, we pay no attention to the best right-wing commentaries. We deprive ourselves of engaging their best thoughts. Remember “Fair and balanced”?
In the early days of George Will at the WaPo, I thought he was witty, and thought provoking. Well, either he has changed into an old curmudgeon, or I have changed. I think FDL would do well to begin a new feature: Best Right-wing Blog of the Week. I do NOT mean “snark target of the week.” Salon offers a feature called “The Blog Report: Your guide to the political blogosphere – left, right and everywhere.” This puts them in the forefront on monitoring blog diversity.
Gore’s #1 & #2 are critical for #3. Without encompassing diversity, there is no assurance that much cream will rise to the top. This, I think, is where FDL gets the lowest marks. Do we really offer a “fair and balanced” perspective? Do we even search for “general agreement,” except among ourselves? Where will the cream rise to the surface? The Salon Blog Report offers some hope for this.
I think Gore makes many valuable points, and offers much meat for us to chew on in contemplating the future of FDL, and how to make it an even better voice for progressive values.
What do you think?
Bob in
HI WIAZsee 96 above and 102.
Get Tough @ 104
Our cozy firedog lake-side chats are always so refreshing, and comfortable. However, in the past the pleasant comraderie of fire-pups has been interrupted when someone tries to hijack the discussion into Israel bashing, and I (or the worst tendencies within me) feel compelled to reply. The moderator, ever a paragon of grace and good manners, has called upon us to cool it, and now would be as good a time as any for that advice appropos of Kathleen at 96.
Hiya Norske, long time no see.
KathieinMN @ 107
I’m sorry for your loss.
OT - has anyone read the letter that Leahy sent to Gonzales in anticipation of his hearing next week? Well I have, and Holy Cow!! If I were a betting person I would bet that Alberto is not gonna show next week. There is no way he can answer any of those questions with lies and “I don’t recalls”
And the truth (for him) is gonna be ugly.
I am not kidding; he may just risk contempt.
You can find the letter here.
Seymour Hersch on Israeli agents in Iraq, Iran, Syria
http://www.democracynow.org/ar...../22/148253
dakine01 @ 109
The only problem I have with this is that that reasoning is exactly why his death was exploited - to influence people by using his notoriety. But, I feel that because the Administration covered up what really happened, it is justified to tell the people familiar with Tillman, the truth and expose to them that the cover-up is still ongoing.
Thanks Digby! And that is exactly what the Dems need to all endlessly repeat to the public and the twisted corporate media, over, and over, and over again between now and 2008.
THe GOP will be anathema to the public for generations to come.
So, please repeat after me:
“What I tell you three times is true.” (Illuminatus! Trilogy, 1975 by Shea and Wilson)
BigMitch @ 114
If you mean that because this particular blog subject has nothing to do with Israeli/Bushies friendly relationship, then I agree. But if you mean people cannot bring up the Israeli lobbies and their blatant attempts at forcing the US hands in the region for their benefit that is anathema to everything blogs and free speech is about.
GSD @ 100
Maybe Biden’s right after all.. partition first, then pull out
Helen @ 118
Wow, ugly is right.
((((((((KathieinMN)))))))
Sad for the loss of your son in war.
Helen @ 118
He met with the intelligence committee behind closed doors today regarding the Ashcroft hospital incident, and Silvestre Reyes (?) said Gonzo had no regrets about the visit.
Big Mitch,
Whatever on earth are you talking about? I am married to a full blooded Brooklyn son of immigrant Polish Jews whose grandparents and countless other relatives died in the Nazi death camps. And within his family, there are fierce arguments about Israel, US policy towards, and Palestinian rights. There are ardent Zionists (Israel can do no wrong) and those who emphatically criticize Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories. And much of this debate occurs on holidays like Passover in front of my half-Syrian daughter, who is half-muslim and half-chistian, and always welcomed. (Actually, in religious terms, she is like her mother–non-affiliated).
LS @ 119
A big difference is that the Tillman family has engaged in a public effort to have the details of his death exposed. They want the truth of what happened the day he was killed and after.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 112
Sniped from Kathleen @ 105
I love free speech.
Edited ** and released by MOD
LS @ 120
I think you may find that the Tillman family, especially his mother and veteran brother (also a former NFL player who enlisted), will lead the charge against the cover-up.
Why should Gonzales show up for Leahy’s committee? Harriet Meirs has already proven you don’t have to answer a subpoena. The precedent has been established that you can disobey a Congressional subpoena and Congress will do nothing to uphold their Constitutional perogatives but roll over and try and make nice with the Republicans and the Administration. Is Gonzales worried? Not in the least because he knows and the Democrats know there are no consequences for them flaunting the law.
BigMitch @ 115
I’m glad you’re around Mitch. I’ve tried to call Mrs. Israel Basher In Chief on it b4, and no one seemed interested.
Recently, however, Israel bashing on this site crossed over into raw anti-Semitism, and THAT got the attention of the PTB.
janda @ 127
You are right.
Interesting…looks like I just got moderated for replying to Big Mitch. What is that all about?
Woodhall Hollow @ 88
In order to not be extradited to the US from Canada, he would first have to get into Canada - because with this conviction he cannot even cross the border. He might be able to get a visitor’s visa (according to what I read in today’s Globe) but that would take major string-pulling and would not go over at all well in this country. Also - he would have to apply for that visa, and these things take time , you know.
Mods…hold up at #128…I think it was A*P*C that did it.
Blub @ 123
The problem is that Iraq as wacky as its government is and despite our large troop presence there is a sovereign country. It is not up to us to dictate its future.
1,582 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Bustednuckles:
Hey ya nuckleman, I spent 10 dayz out on a big fresh water lake on the Canadian border. lickin’ my wounds and watchin’ my kids and grandkids discover what is left of wilderness up there…made a small dent in the Walleye population too (and they all went from the fryin’ pan to my mid-line crisis, so ta speak).
Didn’t read a paper, watch a newscast er link a blog for over a week…was great. What I did come back with though was the absolute conviction that if we don’t mobilize folks this summer to bring the heat from the street this fall…well then, we ken kiss this great experiment with democracy goodbye.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…ALL THEY GOT IS OUR MONEY!!
LS @ 120
Yellowsnapdragon, I am not a big NFL fan, and didn’t know Tillman existed during his life. His poor family has been abused and misused, by his government, not by us. They are pissed about it, and have been loud in their disapproval of what was done. But the reason it is back in the news again, (forgive me if you know this already) is that the congressional investigations into the friendly fire incident, have turned into an investigation of the gov’ts lying to the Tillmans. And in that investigation, last Friday (IIRC) the White House invoked executive privilege which is pretty damned galling even if you’ve never heard of the NFL. Don’t you agree?
I didn’t mention A*P*C or whatever the hell the acronym is, rather I simply wrote the words “nazi” “death camp” “israel” and “occupied” in one post.
I hope the mods see fit to release my post.
Lou Costello @ 133
Why do they do that, Lou?
Get Tough @ 122
Thing one.
Get Tough @ 121
However, if a particular person brings up a particular subject again and again, with what appears to be the intent to provoke controversy, then I can say she has succeeded admirably.
dakine01 @ 109
NFL fans may well know who he was but it begs the question do they care? If he’s not in the lineup of a team that the typical NFL fan identifys with do you actually think it matters to them. We are talking about a very callous and simplistic, although uncomfortably large, segment of the American public. You assume we are still a nation of “citizens” when we have becoming nothing more than consumers i.e. subjects.
janda @ 116
Thank you. I hurt all of the time when I read each loss of life - anyones’! - in Iraq/Afghanistan - just as all of you do. I understand Cindy Sheehan - a loss of a child needs to be avenged in one way or another. I wish I were there to hug all of the Iraqi mothers who have lost their children.
My son was a musician - giving beauty to the world. I continue to perform and teach music - more in his memory than anything, and, of course - still trying to give beauty to the world. But - I am damn mad - and will continue to do all I can to change things. Thanks to all for your leadership, inspiration, love, and empathy.
Fern @ 131
Yeah, but that’s why I used the term, “skip” This guy shredded documents while under indictment, and is facing the rest of his life in jail. I am sure he could find a way to get across, and maybe not even necessarily to Canada. I just think he is skipping.
I do not agree with stifling debate on Israel. Many voices are heard on this site saying many things, some on topic, some not. I don’t need thought police or censors.
Discussing the Iraq war and the Bush administrations push for regime change in the middle east including Syria and Iran can not be discussed honestly without discussing Israel and the I-lobby’s successful efforts at pushing the regime change agenda of the zealots.
Here is one of the things that A*P*C is saying about Iran as of late.
Support Divestment from Iran
As Iran continues to make rapid advancements in its illicit nuclear weapons program, members of the House and Senate have introduced the Iran Sanctions Enabling Act of 2007. The bill authorizes state and local governments to divest from companies investing in Iran’s petroleum and natural gas sector and protects fund managers who divest from such companies from potential lawsuits. Companies invested in Iran’s oil and natural gas sector, which accounts for 80 percent of the country’s hard currency, provide the economic wherewithal needed by Iran to fund its nuclear weapons pursuit and support for terrorism. The legislation was introduced in the House by Reps. Barney Frank (D-MA) and Christopher Shays (R-CT) while Sens. Barack Obama (D-IL) and Sam Brownback (R-KS) introduced the bill in the Senate. Please urge your members of the House and Senate to cosponsor the legislation.
Hugh @ 137
I agree with you in principle, but unfortunately it’s becoming increasingly clear that Iraq isn’t an autarchy, and we may have managed to so destabilize the regional situation that anything short of partition would invite a regional conflagration on a scale the mid-east has yet to see. I’m not saying that partition IS the right answer, only acknowledging the increasing probability that we may be on the brink of a dark precipice on a 1917 scale (and of our making).
Regardless of what we do, this will not end well.
Woodhall Hollow @ 133
I don’t let my children talk back to me, either.
(Just kidding! I can’t moderate and wouldn’t if I could. Did you use the A*P*C word?)
KathieinMN @ 144
{{{{{{{{Kathie}}}}}}}}}}}}}} You are a beautiful and inspirational person.
Hugh @ 147
;0)
Woodhall Hollow @ 140
When I’ve been stuck in mod, I do periodic hard refreshes of the whole page until my comment shows up. :})
Fern @ 134
also, LORD Black has a bit of a problem with his Canadian past … see he gave up his Canadian citizenship so he could become an English Lord (not kidding, here, it was a bit of a high-profile fight with a previous prime minister who had no similar regal pretensions).
and i apologize i have no link but in the past couple of days there has been a clip on our cbc news of the prime minister (while traveling overseas even) taking the trouble to say that conrad would have to go through the usual channels (where he doesn’t have a leg to stand on at this point) to re-enter canada and there will be “no special considerations” (either, so take that)!
Big Mitch-I love your posts, but I gotta say that there should be room for intelligent discussion on this issue. I say this as the wife of a son of Polish Jewish immigrants (and I am sure you know the rest of the story) and the mother of a half-Syrian daughter. Who is welcomed with open arms at Passovers and various kid-mitzvahs, where she has the rare privilege of witnessing some intense disagreement around Israeli politics and Joe Lieberman, for that matter. Including some ultra-orthodox Willi-types who won’t/can’t eat in my non-kosher house.
Fern @ 140
I don’t blog here, or anywhere for that matter, on a daily basis, so I don’t know whether someone is in here using the forum to express prejudices and other misconceptions about cultures and religions. If someone is claiming crap like the Holocaust did not happen, Jews run the world and drink Christain blood, or some STUDID crap like that, then, yeah, moderate the HELL out of them.
Get Tough @ 146
I would not be at all surprised either if he skipped.
Get Tough @ 140
Automatic spam blocker. One day talking about Russia, we found the word social*st has the word ‘Cial*s’ in it. ~ Yuk, yuk!
BigMitch @ 139
Cool.
I do indeed. I think the circumstances of his death and its use *should* be scrutinized, no doubt about it. I’m just not convinced that the name “Tillman” meets the fame threshold to get the results from hearings, etc. that we’d all like to see. Just my humble opinion.
Get Tough @ 110
Note, your definition of “insurgents” also includes the United States military.
edited by Lurking Mod
BigMitch @ 148
Nope! I am flummoxed. Let’s see if it turns up, because I swear it wasn’t all that inflammatory, even though I have some strong views about Lieberman and Israel.
In stopping by to wish “Happy Blogosphere Day” to my favorite Ladies of the Lake and their front-page sidekicks — and to every Firepup, past and present, I also come to share my sorrow at today’s events.
You know which events I mean — all the ones that make it (falsely) appear that the Dark Side will win out in its relentless battle to banish Truth and Justice from the face of the Earth.
I’m crying today, but I’m also more committed than ever to hold my head up in resolute determination to speak Truth and demand Justice no matter what, for as long as it takes, even if that should mean the fight extends long beyond the limits of my own lifetime.
I’m buoyed by this community of Justice-lovers and Constitutional patriots, and by communities of Justice- and Truth-lovers everywhere around the globe.
We can only do what we can do — but we must do THAT much, always — and then trust that our actions and our words, little though they may seem individually, will nonetheless form ripples radiating outward to join with the innumerable other ripples of Light and Truth and Justice to form the mighty rivers and waterfalls spoken of so eloquently both in scripture and in the hearts of the civil rights heroes of the past, whose examples we hold close to our hearts for courage:
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Bobby Kennedy
Nelson Mandela
Gandhi
Hans and Sophie Scholl
Martin Niemoeller
Rosa Parks
Desmond Tutu
Frederick Douglass
Susan B. Anthony
Etc. etc.
I’m sure each one of you has names to add to the list. For me, Eleanor Roosevelt is a great inspiration — for she, like me, was plagued with a lack of confidence and bouts of fear; yet she knew it her duty to dig within and find new fonts of courage to forge ahead in spite of fear.
Let’s remember to turn to our role models of the past for our courage in the future.
For just two examples — can anyone say that Nelson Mandela, a man unjustly imprisoned for how many (27?) years or Gandhi, facing down the largest, most powerful, and most heavily armed empire on the planet had it easier than we now do? Washington’s men, suffering frostbite at Valley Forge, wrestling with the fear of being on a fool’s errand which could have them hanged for treason, surely had it harder than we have it now. And yet they fought on.
If you are feeling low, as I have been today — I say, “Courage, Firepups!” and in so saying, I help to lift up my own soul. The road is long and hard, but there is none more worthy of treading than the road to Justice, which leads directly into Promised Land of Peace.
Never say die!
egregious @ 127
Dearest Egregious - you are my hero for all you do, and then mostly for all you are as loving caring person. Thank you so much for your kind words. My son died when he was 26. He would now be 43 - probably married with children. But he has influenced a lot of people even to this day-
with his life and death - including his mom and her students!
Thanks for your caring!
Kathie
Bluetoe @ 144
The responses of my wing-nut friends/acquaintances says yes they do care. Every little bit helps push the wall down
I have one child. My daughter. The Princess. If I were to lose her I would die. Day by day. I think I’m going to call her (she lives in La Jolla), since I haven’t heard from her since last night. She’ll be home from work soon.
I really am sorry that Big Mitch and OddMommy (there is no need to start calling me names) feel so defensive when I link articles and info about the roll Israel and big oil have played into the war in Iraq and the push for a pre-emptive strike on Iran. If we can not discuss this reality here on this blog respectfully that says a great deal about why this issue can not be discussed respectfully in the mainstream.
The rank between private and Sergeant — describing a special kind of knowledge will get you into mod land, too. Cial*st makes it hard to get posted.
Sorry.
mod squad, the #160 should not be quotes, that is my comment, not Get Tough. Thanks
Bluetoe @ 131
I’ve been extremely frustrated about the Miers situation also. Especially after today’s HJC hearing re: the RNC emails where they did exactly the same thing. Then I read this at Marcy’s place.
I am now hoping that the HJC is in cahoots with the SJC and they are awaiting the DOJ’s answer to Leahy’s letter. The deadline is Monday.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 164
Me too. One child, a princess of a daughter. And I would absolutely die if anything were to happen to her. She was a tough kid and an even tougher woman, so our relationship has been rocky, but she has given my life more meaning than any other single person or thing. She calls me every morning on her way to work–I am so grateful. A far cry from her rebellious teenaged days when I had to track her down. And beg for some time.
Lou Costello @ 155
Kathleen @ 165
I have no problem with that. But to anyone who has been a long time reader here it is increasingly apparent that your “discussions” don’t stop there, and I know that Big M and I are not the first to have been made uncomfortable by it.
“Why doesn’t the NPR hire anyone who isn’t Jewish,” for example, is way over in left field from constructive criticism of Israel or U.S. relations therewith.
And don’t tell me that is “hogwash.” That’s a Dick Cheneyism, for starters.
From here to God’s ears, please, please, please, let Gonzo think that he can blow off a congressional subpoena.
I can think of no single thing that will put impeachment on the table faster than that.
janda @ 151
Dear Janda - love hugs!! (-:
We all inspire each other here at FDL! I am glad to know I have “fed the lake”. Do you all know the book i am quoting from? Oh, ja, sure! Sorry - can’t think of it at the moment, but will try to find it.
Anyway - thanks to all and each!
oddmommy @ 173
And Kathleen, we have been asked to take our differences of opinion elsewhere on one occassion.” Your post at 96 above, was factually incorrect, or, as you would put it, “hogwash.”
Ray Suarez is Jewish?
Wisconsin lobbyist linked to D.C. escort service By Frederic J. Frommer
Associated Press writer
WASHINGTON — The cell number of lobbyist Bill Broydrick, whose firm lobbies in Wisconsin and Washington, showed up in the phone records of a Washington escort service that federal prosecutors allege was a prostitution ring.
Mea culpas…my post was lost, but I am not sure it was the moderators, given that it was so low-key compared to some things I have seen since. Maybe it was must a toobz glitch. I just want to say that it had nothing to so with the notion that “npr doesn’t hire jews” because that is a ridiculous statement. Which I want nothing to do with.
All I want is peace in the world. Everywhere.
Get Tough @ 172
Lou, Lurking Mod misplaced this post for some reason. It was a response to Frank33.
Get Tough at #172.
I hope we can agree to disagree. But everything done by this group of neo-con morons, has endangered US soldiers and US interests.
Frank33 @ 181
Exactly, no single person or entity has done more to further the cause of terrorism than has bushco. His idiot executive order should be used to freeze his assets and those of his friends.
Jane in da house, y’all come on up!
Woodhall Hollow @ 179
Me too. And I never thought you would have anything to do with such a statement.
punaise @ 177
Diame Reem….owitz is. It’s a conspiracy!!!
there’s new threadage upstairs
Hey pups -
New thread upstairs…
and did this thread give the subscription info for Invertebrate?
Frank33 @ 181
Absolutely agree 100%.
BigMitch @ 174
Amen!!!!
New thread.
BigMitch @ 176
I did not ask that. You can go back and read exactly what I asked, so do not misquote me. There have been court cases in regard to the “pervasive cronyism” at NPR. I have talked directly with employees about this issue. My question was about hosting at NPR and I can assure you this question has been asked by NPR employees with good reason. If it offended you, I am sorry.
Although your intention is clear. Your strategy to shut down the dialogue (name calling ) is ridiculous. You do not want to discuss this issue and try your best to shut down honest dialogue about Israel and the Israeli firsters influence on the invasion of Iraq and on the push for a pre-emptive attack on Iran.
Latest push by A*P*C against Iran
AIPAC panel lobbies on Iran
07/19/2007
Executive members of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobbied Congress to pass Iran sanctions bills.
About 100 members of A*P*C’s executive committee meeting in Washington this week pushed bills that would tighten existing sanctions, as well as enable state and local governments to divest from Iran.
Committee members also urged lawmakers to back Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas now that he has exiled Hamas from his government and sought support for $2.4 billion in defense assistance to Israel.
They were armed with lists of senators and members of the U.S. House of Representatives who had yet to sponsor the Iran sanctions bills, as well as a recent House roll call on foreign aid. More than 160 Republicans voted against the foreign aid bill, which included the $2.4 billion for Israel, citing a desire to cut foreign aid in general.
Edited ** and released by MOD
Is this the post you were questioning Big Mitch
Kathleen @ 97
BigMitch @ 115
This is a very interesting exchange, following immediately on my comment at #114. We need to figure out how to have debates about things like this, encompassing diverse points of view. Maybe we need a “refereed corner”?
Bob in
HI WIAZHelen @ 170
Marcy is insightful, tenacious and oftentimes spot on and I respect her take. Having said that, there have been countless scenarios since the 2006 election on how the Democrats (Waxman, Leahy, Conyers etc.) were going to bring down this criminal regime and yet the crimes continue daily and become even more brazen and yet the Dems that were elected to do something continue to spin their wheels. Admit it, how many times have we been waiting for the Republicans to respond to a “letter” or better yet even respond to a subpoena? This is all turning into farce. The only thing government fears more than anything are the citizens on the streets armed with passion, conviction and righteous indignation. In any other western democracy the people would be on the streets in the millions beating down the gates of authority. I fear that before Congress begins to move forward in a truly meaningful way there will be knocks at the doors of hundreds of thousands of citizens throughout the land who have demonstrated disloyalty to the “homeland”.
Kathleen @ 192
AGree that this is a place for free speech.
Um, I wonder about the strategy of quoting statistics about israel from an obviously pro-palestinian website?
That’s my only observation about this discussion! Carry on!
Christy;
Thanks for the link to my somewhat arcane procedural note. :-) I just love coming here because FDL has the smartest commenters in the whole damned blogosphere — seriously!
Bob
Bob Geiger @ 196
George Boosh is a poopyhead!
Brisingamen @ 19
Months ago there was some big banquet at which the new Speaker and other leading Dems were guests. At each table setting was a flawless white placecard, beautifully-engraved in a script font with but one word: Impeachment. Can no longer find the picture, unfortunately.
{{{{KathienMN}}}
and a group hug for
{{{{Big Mitch - Kathleen - oddmommy}}}}
and what’s wrong with being pro-Palestinian? A lot of my Israeli friends are, so why can’t Kathleen support or use materials from sites endorsed by many Israeli citizens, some of whom are Jewish, do-si-do?
I agree with Big Mitch and oddmommy that it is important to keep debate about issues having to do ith Israel as rational as possible. But we seldom have had threads which dealt directly with important issues in this area, most notably the trial involving the guys who worked for the agency which we cannot name without clogging the toobz. It is the ONLY important trial in the DC area having to do with important national security issues which fdl hasn’t covered IIRC.
There are many Jewish commenters here, some secular, others very involved in their faith. I’m sure some feel uncomfortable when Israel issues come up and just go away until later. Others, like Big Mitch are very assertive, and sometimes brilliant.
I find most of kathleen’s comments to be factual. Since the number of threads presented here are so few on Israel-Palestine issues and on USA national security issues having to do with our “special relationship,” which trouble many rational people worldwide, I suggest that commenters try to bring these subjects up on more OT-open threads rather than on threads which are quite subject-specific. This thread appears to have gone sort of OT right away.
Ed*ard Teller @ 199
I am pro-Palestinian pro-Israel (based on the UN internationally recognized 67 border)
I actually said that the dialogue should be respectful. It was both Odd Mommy and Big Mitch who went into the attack mode, read the comments.
I do agree that the debate about this issue is often shut down really fast by name calling and false claims. But when name calling and selective claims of one person going Off topic and this only comes up when the lobby or Israel comes up is suspect.
I am committed to discussing this issue respectfully!
Ed Teller could you provide me any evidence of Odd Mommy or Big Mitch saying that it is important to keep debate about this issue as rational as possible? I have not seen either of them write anything of the sort. Just attack when the issue is brought up.
cleter @ 23
Iraq’s new name = The Republic of Potemkin
bobschacht @ 114
Merely being satisfied with seeking a consensus is what will get Hillary Clinton elected.
In my view, right now America desperately needs great leadership.
fdl is where we discuss the day’s events and each of us responds. Some might even suggest next steps. Nobody really is seeking someone else’s agreement, though it does arise at times.
Some say we’re all tin-foil hat, some say we are Bush-haters, but in reality we’re just Americans who want things to go better than they currently are.
Of course, the activist side, where people raise money and support political candidates and petition their government is noticeably Progressive. These folks already have a perspective and issues they want worked on.
What ‘fair and balanced’ input do we need? We hear the MSM and Faux News all the time. Isn’t it time for the Truth and Real Progress?
bonkers @ 197
and sophisticated tooo!
Bob Geiger @ 196
Ditto
PS “Never make a bet that Republicans will do the right thing.” LOL707
I wonder what the odds would be in Vegas?
Probably can’t get those odds, it would be sort of like betting on All Start Wrestling.
January will be the new September.
Well put, maybe we can all try very hard to make sure that doesn’t happen.
I think everyone is looking at this backwards, though, I don’t think there’s any doubt what the public wants done NOW.
September won’t be the moment the public finally says “NO”, that happened in November 2006.
September will be the moment when “they” admit there’s no way they will continue to get support from the public. They are watching for the anti-war sentiment to crack somehow, and unless we have a miracle peace treaty in Iraq, or a terrible disaster her in the US, that just isn’t possible.
…oh, yeah, that last comment about there being onlytwo ways they can change public opinion? If they refuse to go quietly into the trash bin of political history, and leave this war for the next President to cleanup,then I wonder whichscenario is more likely, another mysteriously enabled “event” or some sort of real success in Iraq?
And is that what they are hinting at, with Chertoff’s gastric crystal ball, and the latest NIE?
My tinfoil hat is tingling.
Their only purpose in government is to steal from the taxpayers, help their rich friends, cover up their leaders’ crimes and destroy Democrats. That’s it. That’s all they do.
That’s what comes of supporting a series of inflammatory right-wing candidates since 1964, when Barry Goldwater, accepting the Republican nomination, famously proclaimed, “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.”
Goldwater was a liberal compared with the monarchists in office now, but his overt defense of “extremism” welcomed right-wing demagogues of every stripe into the eager arms of the Republican party.