From the Hartford Courant:
With a steady hand, U.S. Sen. Joseph Lieberman expertly pinned a Purple Heart medal on World War II veteran Diego Tomasiello in Waterbury Monday morning.
It was long overdue and well-deserved: a white-haired vet from the “greatest generation” and his proud family, joined by National Guard personnel standing at attention. And here was a senator who truly cares about the men and women who serve our country.
“I’m here to say to you, you are a hero,” Lieberman, an independent, said before a small and appreciative gathering at the armory.
Certainly, a senator who will come all the way to Waterbury to pin a decades-late medal on an 81-year-old man feels the same way about the young men and women now serving in Iraq.
So I’m wondering about the Joe Lieberman we saw last week, the one who opposed a plan by Sen. James Webb, D-Va., to give U.S. troops serving in Iraq more time at home between deployments.
“We are simply saying, if you’ve been gone for a year, you deserve to be back for a year,” Webb told Senate colleagues last week. Current policy allows for a year back home only after 15 months of Iraq duty, he said.
But Lieberman, the medal pinner, joined Republicans to block a vote on Webb’s modest proposal.
“This is a war,” Sen. Lieberman told me when I asked about his vote Monday.
If so, who was the Joe Lieberman back in March who said troops “are stretched to the breaking point, short on personnel, equipment and training?”
“No one can possibly look at our troops or veterans today and feel satisfied that we are doing all that we can to support them,” Lieberman said back then.
Or what about the Joe Lieberman, in response to the series in The Courant about the mental health of soldiers, who said, “we must make certain that our units have the strongest and healthiest soldiers?”
Taking questions from reporters in Waterbury, Lieberman struck a different tone. Morale in Iraq is “very high,” Lieberman said.
On Sunday, The New York Times reported that, in a recent poll, two thirds of military members and their families believe things are going badly in Iraq.
Lieberman, of course, is where he’s been all along, preaching double-speak as he defends President Bush, standing up for the Iraq fiasco until the end, reality be damned.
My guess is we’ll be treated to the spectacle of Holy Joe standing with his Republican BFFs tonight as they block an up-or-down vote on the Webb Amendment, just like he did on Alito (although the NRO says he’s just too damn lazy to really care). But Joe, unlike Webb, has no kids in Iraq so what the hell does he care now that he’s no longer running for anything.
Both reality and the troops are easy casualties in Lieberman’s callow, hypocritical world.
Related posts:
- Report Confirms Poor Electrical Work by KBR Endangers US Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Lieberman on Point for Senate DADT Repeal
- More Troops for Afghanistan? Faster Withdrawal from Iraq?
- McChrystal Wants More Troops, More Billions for War in Afghanistan





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Bada bing
zed???
LS!!!
Jane hounding Joe…I gotta go back read this one!
LS @ 1
Wish we could make Holy Joe go for an electoral ride with Silvio.
GAHHHH!
My Polish dog just went down the wrong way when I clicked on the post.
Now ya really pissed me off Lieberman.
Lieberman is disingenuous, of course. If “this is war” is his motivation, instead of abusing and destroying the men and women ( and their families) who serve as our military by over-deploying them, Holy Joe should have been making sure we had enough troops by calling for a draft. We’ve been bogged down in Iraq for over four years now, there are no excuses for not having the draft if we don’t have a big enough military.
Cheney must have J. Edgar Hoover-style blackmail holds on all these idiots.
Joe Lieberman needs to be locked in a small room with Noam Chomsky and Jim Webb for a few days. If that doesn’t sort out his fuckery the next step would be to have the CIA air drop him (with functional parachute, of course!) over Ramallah …..
“This is a war,” Sen. Lieberman told me when I asked about his vote Monday.”
We have a new enemy. They have just renamed the occupation, the new and improved, ta da:
Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq-War
Also, known as AQIIW
Oh, Yeah Joe, what war are we in???
Prove It!!!
spurious @ 8
it sure seems like it.
Hey, it’s Joe Lieberman! And here I am again like a fly on shit.
It’ll be interesting to see what kind of tone ol Holy Jowls takes in ‘08 when he is no longer the BMOC. Unfortunately, how many folks are going to die before that happens?
Good God and all that is Holy in the pre 9/11 sense of the word!!!
Thanks, Team Connecticut , for this sanctimonious hypocritical out of touch lying sack of whatever drops out of Vitter’s pampers.
Jeeeeesus.
puppethead @ 6
Disingenuous, ha. He’s a lowlife punk ass motherfucker on his best day.
Mr. Lieberman is certainly qualified to speak of war. What with all his military combat experience.
Different day, different face, different lie.
Has anyone done a psych workup of this guy? It would make for interesting reading, I think.
That appalling ^%$#*, people should read the staffs’ response to a caller down several thread on Habeas Corpus. I say nothing more because I am swearing mode.
At least we never again have to worry about this arse being chosen as a vice-presidential running mate.
Wish it would never had happened in the first place.
LS @ 9
LS, you actually got the Holy Man and not the staff?
Elliott @ 10
How else to account for the power he obviously exerts on them? Wherever they started out, they’ve all come to heel; it just takes a single ‘meeting’ with him and they’re all singing from the same page. Disgusting.
Can CT recall Lieberman? He cannot be even close to the Senator they envisioned last time they voted.
I think Webb, and Murtha, and just a few other people people that have been in combat, might care just a wee bit more than Mr. LIE berman.
spurious @ 8
no, i don’t think Joe requires that kind of motivation. he thinks he’s saving Israel from the baddies, does Joe …….
I really really demand that Reid strip Lieberman of all his responsibilities connected with my party. Or is this not in Harry’s purview (guts)?
brendan @ 11
it’s a smelly job, but somebody has to do it ……
fahrender @ 8
Just Noam Chomsky would suffice. I get a giggle thinking of that. Let’s add Ralph Nader, cause they’re old enemies.
mui @ 20
No, I’m quoting from the post above :} Then, after that, I’m ranting.
tbsa @ 19
Funny, when my buddy’s son was going to join the army he asked him if he wanted to talk to me because of my experiences in Vietnam. He said
“nah, different army, different war”. He’s in Ramadi with the 2nd ID now.
Elliott @ 10
Perhaps here is a good example: Democrat Ben Nelson Knuckles Under To Cheney On Funds Cutoff.
“This is a war.”
Yep–but which one? I’m not convinced that Joe is talking about the one in Iraq…*g*
There are two names within the Democratic power structure, that throw my switch. ‘Lieberman’ is one of those names.
Badwater @ 22
If he was elected by CT republicans, they probably got just what they wanted.
jane hamsher:
You might have meant “callous”, not “callow”, which means youthfully inexperienced and unsophisticated.
Badwater @ 23
CT should have known.
spurious @ 21
and think about how long they were spying (via ATT) before anybody knew?
brendan @ 34
perhaps shallow plus callous equals callow?
By the way, I spoke to one of his staffers this morning to urge him to restore habeas corpus. Just a reminder that there’s still time to do it and only one of the twelve (Coleman) is outright against it.
Naraka @ 12
You know, I don’t feel sorry for Reid or any of the other Senate leadership(except Feingold). They made their bed, so now they can sleep in it. I am not convinced that enough of them want to end the war.
LS @ 28
Oh, o.k. I guess I am obsessed with SA2022, I am barely thinking of any other vote. His staff told a caller downthread that the caller didn’t understand “the issues.” What a grandiose asswipe! We constituents understand reality better than him. He has his nose so far up Cheney’s ass he can’t see anything else. Sorry for the language, but I am fuming. There is NO reasoning with the man. He’s insane.
And Joe is probably wondering what in the world he ever did to deserve Jane…*g*
raven @ 30
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
tbsa @ 35
Oh c’mon. He ran an incredibly corrupt campaign.
Elliott @ 37
CARNIVORE (FBI email and call snooping)was up and running before Boosh Uno left office…
brendan @ 33
“Callow” works too…*g*
Thanks, Team Connecticut , for this sanctimonious hypocritical out of touch lying sack of whatever drops out of Vitter’s pampers.
Thanks, Gore, for giving this bloodthirsty, cowardly L*k*d-tool his national prominence in the first place.
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
Reid is throwing down the gauntlet right now on Cspan2. Lott is in a tizzy.
tbsa @ 35
Voters can not recall a sitting Senator. It stinks. You have to remember, he Republicans ran a nobody. HoJo had the Rove seal of approval, so any Dems and moderates in CT should have known better.
althespook @ 30
can’t imagine why else he’d knuckle under…
I want the Lieberman declared insane and forced to resign.
Has Joe the Low been checked lately for Alzheimers? Really. He can’t remember his lies/opinions from one day to the next. Someone should call his office and suggest that he be checked by his physician. Seriously.
althespook @ 30
Really. Sure smells like blackmail to me.
Holy Joe does not speak for this American. CT lost 5 soldiers (may they RIP and no offense to other smaller states who also sacrificed) in 2007.
California lost 78 this year.
Every casualty “counts” but I’m just saying his perspective is different from mine and that’s for sure.
Iraq War casualties just click on your state on this list
I do believe that Harry Reid has found his testicles. Now if only he could castrate Lyin Joe.
PS I for one never, ever want Jane to be pi**ed with me!
Among Mr. Lieberman’s ultimate goals is an attack on Iran. And this man just might get his wish.
WASHINGTON – The United States is ready to hold new direct talks with Iran on the deteriorating security situation in Iraq, the State Department said Tuesday. The Bush administration accused Tehran of supporting Shiite insurgents there.
And Bush can say: ‘See… we tried’.
With Lieberman with his head up george bush’s ass, HRC had better start putting some SERIOUS distance between herself and the ol’ “troop supporter”, or it’s going to be one MORE thing on which she is very, very, vulnerable.
If she, in an act of the purest political suicide, IS nominated, by the time the election gets here, bush approval ratings could be so far into the teens, that REPUBLICANS might be saying:
“Shit, we can’t vote for her; she’s spent most of the past 5 years supporting bush’s war.” :o)
mui @ 27
Ralph would be a nice touch, they certainly deserve each other, but I can just see Webb, putting his hand on Lieberman’s shoulder and saying, “Just a minute, friend.”
Badwater @ 22
No, they can’t. It’s a federal office, and governed by the Constitution, so unlike a governor, states can’t make laws allowing recall.
Elliott @ 37
Sure sounds as though they were all afraid to say anything.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 32
Would the other one be the junior senator from NY? She-who-is-not-Schumer?
BTW, a US senator cannot be recalled.
Sorry I’m late!
*waving at Jane*
oh shoot! whud’ i miss?
i got stuck downstairs swattin’ a byeflyer stuck in the thread grill. all polished up & ready to read….. ;->
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 47
it was the True Believers that just know “our Joe” will save Israel from the baddies …….
You all know of course that Mr. Lieberman’s twenty year old son is safe and sound studying something or other in Israel. While Vietnam draft dodging daddy Joe proudly looks on?
Naraka @ 46
Someone on the last thread mentioned that MSNBC was referring to it as a “marathon debate”, not a filibuster. Kind of makes it sound like they’re Athenian statesmen. Lott is a regular fucking Pericles, that one.
mui @ 18
Swearing mode. I’ll have to remember that. I tried to restrain myself on #13 and sound pretty stupid. I just can’t let the off color stuff fly this early in the day…tho hojo deserves plenty of vituperous remarks as he’s kicked to the curb if CT will get a clue.
cleter @ 59
;0)
Reid up: “People call me” about the war.
[He doesn’t have to go home to his district to hear what people think about the war.]
Take a bow, pups!
At least we aren’t sitting here, listening to pundits drone on about “Gore fatigue” and dreading the pounding that Vice President Lieberman is likely going to get from GOP front-runner Jeb Bush.
quite a mystery indeed, althespook, Elliot, & Spurious.
97-0, thats quite a feather in the cap of someone who dissed the very 3rd party averse (D) Party so badly with his Independent run.
who says the (D) party lacks discipline? there was unanimity!
Perhaps Leiberman holds high rank in some kind of organization that many in Congress are in great fear of?
that would explain some of these perplexing mysteries, like why he got to keep his committee chairmanship, why he is sometimes chosen by Reid as a (D) spokesman, why they didn’t really oppose his (I) run and welcomed him back, why Obama picked him as mentor in the Senate, etc.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 64
RACHEL CORRIE!!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 63
Why should they serve when no one from the Bush family is serving?
althespook @ 30
I think you’re giving them too much credit. Bozos like Lieberman and Nelson don’t need blackmail to undermine the Dem caucus. They’re just sure they’re right. Or rather, in the case of Nelson, I suspect that he believes in some position other than the majority Democratic action or the administration position, but if he doesn’t sign on the the Dem position, he can pretend he’s not responsible for either one, despite the fact that he’s enabling Bush and Cheney.
is it too skanky of me to wave my Harry Potter wand, in hopes of causing just one teensy case of laryngitis for, um, you know, that guy with his own party. who was that masked girlieman?
oh yeah! bozoparty, i think…
Redshift @ 57
Actually there was a bill written by a Lamont supporter in the legislature that anticipates HoJoe’s resignation. It has to do with replacement if he should ever do the right thing and decide to resign. That can be done. I applied for email tracking but never got word, probably have to go directly to the general assembly site to check on status, if it’s still a live one.
brendan @ 64
They may be right. The Carpetbagger Report suggests that Reid doesn’t have the votes to enforce this and Lott knows it. Linky
Let’s keep the all-caps shouting down, please.
brendan @ 65
yeah, I haven’t sen a whole lot about the filibuster in the MSM. Reid did call it a filibuster specifically when Lott was trying to interrupt him. Something akin to; “We are now in a filibuster, the distinguished blah,blah, blah, will have ample opportunity to explain his objection to this important amendment later tonight”
OT: Please recommend this diary and help put an end to slavery and oppression of women on U.S. soil. Time is running out.
Badwater @ 72
To be fair, would you really want our military to be saddled with Jenna and Not-Jenna? Do you really want their drunk asses anywhere near live ammunition?
fahrender @ 62
That wasn’t the honest to g*d rationale that most people gave for voting for the guy. If I could stereotype it was rednecks & l-o-w information voters.
Mabel’s Wig Shack @ 71
Rachel Corrie. ;0)!
tbsa @ 16
Same Liebermann
The Lurking Mod @ 77
Can’t you make an exception for Rachel Corrie?
Elliott @ 48
1. defective character
2. lack of scruples
3. doesn’t have a clue
4. complete lack of perspective
i could go on, but the thing i don’t accept is that somebody else, not even Chick Daney, is ultimately responsible. the guy voted. against the party of which he is a member. no further explanation is necessary.
my only question is:
where is the nutcracker?
Badwater @ 72
;0)
The apocalyptic sign will be JoeL’s son coming home from his foreign studies.
Shorter Joe: Onward, Christian soldiers.
mui @ 27
Nice. Hatred of Israel united Chomsky and Nader.
Boy, if he teamed up with John “Smoldering Wreckage” McCain for the Unity ‘08 ticket, wow. It would truly be a marriage of the Titans.
do-si-do @ 65
I do want to say, that plenty of us in CT DO have a clue.
Naraka @ 46
a latte-tizzy?
brendan @ 63
i can just see Trent Lott, out at the beach during a storm, with a mouth full of rocks.
i see it now …….
or was that some other Greek guy?
Nothing helps Jane feel better than a giving Holy Joe a good whomping!
Glad to see you are feeling good.
Shorter McCain – We don’t wanna stay up all night. So just give us what we want and we can all go home.
Grandpa McCain is cranky. He wants to give the military a pay raise and MRAPS(?) but he doesn’t want to bring them home. He would rather have them killed than admit he’s wrong. Same goes for HoJo. Shameful.
What in the name of all that’s good and holy was Al Gore thinking? Who was it–what staffer–put Joe on the VP short list? Who talked Gore into picking him? And who is that unknown genius working for now?
fahrender @ 94
Diogenes. As I once said, G. H. W. Bush used to be ridiculed for his mangled diction. Once accomplishment of his son is that he makes the old man look like a regular fucking Diogenes.
fahrender @ 92
I think that is Demostacles.
fahrender @ 83
Can’t argue on this, he is wholly responsible for his own vote.
Sorry to take the focus off Joe, from Rawstory
House Oversight Committee calls ex-Rove aide Taylor back to the Hill
I’m of the opinion that CT knew better but the election was once again stolen.
Naraka @ 78
See “althespook” at #76.
Adie @ 92
Something like that. I suggest he goes with the full caffeine version. He’s going to need it.
cleter @ 98
Joe Lieberman was the perfect vehicle for Gore to separate himself from the sleazy factor of Clinton. And he would have done no harm as V.P.
By the way, choosing Lieberman as V.P. worked. Gore carried Florida and won the election.
cleter @ 79
Absolutely! As long as no one else is around but other junior Bushies, that is.
Better still, put it on TV and call it “The Simple Life: US Army” (maybe subtitled “Natural Selection in Action” or “Thinning the Herd”…)
mui @ 91
Thanks. I apologize for my frustration.
BigMitch @ 89
I think Chomsky and Nader are both a little crazy, but I do find some good things for example, in Nader’s consumer advocacy, etc.. There’s more to both of them than “hating Israel.” It was furthest frm my thoughts.
Millineryman @ 100
cuffs!?
Always glad to see the truth exposed regarding General Joe BENEDICT ARNOLD Lieberman. Hey Joey, what’s it feel like to be a Benedict Arnold? Is it fun, is it joyous to be a traitor? Are you happy that your legacy will always be that of a neo-Benedict Arnold?
LiarMan, you can go right to the lower region. Do not pass Go, and you cannot collect your Courage. You have none.
Ghostman
Redshift @ 71
i swear i didn’t read your comment before i wrote mine (not that they are identical but …..)
BigMitch @ 104
Should Mr. Gore choose to run, I have two perfect bumper stickers ready to go:
Reelect Al Gore To His First Term
Al Gore Now! 2008 is the new 2000!
fahrender @ 92
Demosthenes. Though the country would be better off if Lott always had a mouth full of rocks.
ccmask @ 103
Well we still don’t know where all that petty cash went. Honestly, he’s incredibly corrupt. There were definitely persistant rumors of vote-buying. Of course, our Blumenthal doesn’t handle this stuff or so he says and as for the US Attorney General– he’s Gonzo’s boy.
Restore Gore
fahrender @ 110
Great minds think alike (and us, too! ;-)
Gore/Clark ticket. That wins the election. Environmental causes, experience, secular reasoning, no-nonsense approach to this administration’s blunders, and a highly decorated moderate SUCCESSFUL general for foreign policy and terrorism–they are out there. That wins the day!
Get Tough @ 86
LOL!
cleter @ 95
Donna Brazile.
BigMitch @ 105
This “perfect vehicle for Gore to separate himself…” line is a rehashing of a steaming media narrative served up to us in 2000. Decades ago they used to famously make political decisions on nominees in “smoked filled rooms”. Can we really be so naive to believe this was Gore’s personal decision made on an Olympian height? The Florida explanation is plausible, but I believe Lieberman represented the invade-Iraq wing (there were hard and soft variants of the “regime change” policy) of the Democratic Party and Gore had to pick him.
I think Gore wanted Joe because Joe came out against Clinton (good ole’ reliable joey bag o’ donuts) wrt the Lewinsky Caper.
fahrender @ 24
I despise these buffoons like HoJo claiming to be acting in the best interests of Israel … they have increased anger and resentment against Israel and sidelined the moderate Arabs, who were working towards a comprehensive peace deal between Arabs & Israel.
I can complain about Lieberman but not the CT voters. I live in the 6th district of Minnesota — the one who sent Michelle Bachmann to Congress. UCK
And indeed it is low information voters and those who only want to know a candidate prays and fasts before making any decision. yup. I am a Christian, but these people scare me.
The word putz is from Yiddish, where it literally means ‘the penis’. Like so many other words for the penis, though, it is also used–much more frequently–in the figurative sense ‘an offensive or foolish person; jerk’. As such it can be the subject of typical double-entendre jokes (e.g., foolishly dressed tourist in Israel takes a ride on a camel, announces to wife that it was a male camel, wife asks how he knew, man replies, “Everyone
was saying ‘Look at the putz on that camel!’”).
A more common Yiddishism for the same concepts is schmuck. There is some disagreement over the relative offensiveness of these terms. In The Joy of Yiddish, Leo Rosten claims that putz is the more offensive word, but I believe most people today would think the opposite: putz has more of a connotation of bumbling foolishness, while schmuck is a stronger insult.
I just can’t decide which one for Joe.
janda @ 97
like i said earlier, “Where’s the nutcracker…….?”
I’m starting to feel sorry for Joe . . . Nah.
It’s hot and steamy here in the southwest after all the rain we’ve had. Everything is green. And someone mentioned Lieberman. Obviously I need to calm down. I’m going for a swim in the pool. And think about President Gore. And I think I’ll prepare two mint juleps first, for poolside. One for me and one for you. ;0)
retirin’ in five @ 119
Donna Brazile was a minder, not a campaign director. The Clinton administration was saddled with many minders and outright Republicans. I’m repeating myself, but these exaggerated notions of Gore’s campaign ineptitude just don’t take account of the kinds of forces Democrats were subjected to. Start seeing the 2000 campaign as part of the 2000 recount coup.
TILLMAN!
Woops. It was not Diogenes who stood yelling at the ocean with a mouth full of rocks. As I said at A former governor of Texas
In 1988, she famously said of George Herbert Walker Bush, 41, “Poor George, he can’t help it. He was born with a silver foot in his mouth.” One of the improbable achievements of his son is that he makes the old man sound like a regular Demosthenes.
Was that her most memorable quote from that convention? Maybe, but she also offered a memorable salute to the achievements of women, reminding her worldwide audience, “Ginger Rogers did everything that Fred Astaire did. She just did it backwards and in high heels.”
She was governor for one term, losing her re-election bid to George W. Bush.
The same George W. Bush had his own memorable quote about the fair sex over at the Republican National Convention in 1988. A Hartford Courant reporter asked him about what he and his father talked about when they weren’t talking about politics.
“Pussy,” Dubya replied.
As Casey Stengel would say, you can look it up.
“… and tell ’em Big Mitch sent ya!”
do we need to talk up how another terrorist attack in the U.S. would be a perfect example of how bush has failed to fulfill his responsibilities, how he has not made us safer, how fighting over there didn’t stop us from fighting here, especially this one that he has always portrayed as his strongpoint? We should do this as a pre-emptive in case he might be thinking that a terrorist attack (again?) is just what he needs to initiate martial law and stricter domestic control.
Naraka @ 96
Well, his campaign bus was just repoed. He’s losing to a guy name “Willard.” And his campaign laid off everyone but his grandson Skippy McCain, who still comes in on Tuesdays after school to stuff envelopes for Gramps, even though Skippy secretly thinks it’s a waste of perfectly good envelopes and is deathly sick of campaign stops at Iowa county fairs, partially because of the ribbing he gets there from Fred Thompson’s hearty, photogenic trophy-wife offspring —not to mention the Guiliani brats– but mostly because Gramps can no longer afford to buy him a corn dog.
So, McCain is having a rough time. Let the worthless old bastard be cranky.
So Jane..
Tell us what you REALLY think about
Joe LIEberman !!
Excellent post… I’m sure Joe will vote along with his “new” party tonight.. Thanks to you and others like you that have exposed Joe for the pseudo Chicken-hawk wanna-be that he is..
He is no more than an elected lobbist IMHO..
Keep up the heat on Joe..
Petrocelli @ 122
This is a disingenous argument, or, more charitably, wishful thinking. There is certainly a progressive and enlightened, and even heroic, Israeli minority, but the Israel lobby, and by extension Lieberman, is an incontrovertible asset to the Israeli state, no matter who runs the government there at any given time. Again, I’m repeating myself, but the overwhelming majority of Israelis wanted us to invade Iraq and it was their lobby in large measure that got us to do it.
Gore listened to his advisers and consultants, who, wrongly as usual, counseled him to “distance himself” from the popular, sitting President.
Leiberman was as despicable as Jesse Helms, and nominating him alienated many thousands, who were prematurely anti-Leiberman, even then.
The Lurking Mod @ 77
some enterprising young geek could make a few bucks writing code that replaced all caps with lower case letters, eh?
fahrender @ 57
Wasn’t that a great moment ?
It was like he punched Lindsey, only without the ensuing lawsuit !
(bold mine)
retirin’ in five @ 119
Fer real? Or is this a supposition?
sporkovat @ 134
My comment at #120 goes for this one, as well.
GrandmaJ @ 123
Holy Joe’s “sanctimony” does seem to appeal to religious Xtian types: he’s a “good, religious man” and “a saint”. Said in a Stepfordy kind of way.
orcatjf @ 130
I thought the response from Reid and Pelosi to the latest NIE was pretty good — basically saying what I was looking for, that all the scare talk about attacks at home means Bush has failed in the “War on Terror” and we need to change course, not that we need to shut up and let the Daddy Party protect us.
ccmask @ 121
It remains a great mystery to me how JoHo came to be on that ticket. Yet I remain confident President Gore would never have tolerated his VP war mongering and sleeping with the rethugs.
ReElect President Gore & VP Edwards in 2008!
A’57 @ 124
“putz” and “schmuck” – really great words and most descriptive!
What’s the Yiddish word for “teeney tiny”?
thanks, Redshift, I had not heard about that response. It is a good one.
brendan @ 120
I hardly think that the decision to nominate Joe was made on Olympian heights. I think it was a cool calculation of the political realities. That Clinton was an albatross, and Lieberman countered it. He may have been wrong: Clinton would have helped him and who knew that his greatest liability was that he was a decorated war hero? But I think that is why he chose Joe. That it is a rehashing of the MSM line, is maybe true, but even a blind squirrel gets an occassional chestnut. Could the MSM have been right about this?
I don’t recall Iraq being a big issue in 2000.
Lott’s cranky
newspaperbrat @ 142
Me too. And I want to know who said to Gore “hey, this is the guy for you!” Not the reasoning. Who?
Petrocelli @ 136
Ms. Redshift frequently asks if we can call up our senator and tell him he should kick Joe Lieberman in the nuts. *g*
Elliott @ 144
I wonder how he’ll sound in 12 hours….
cleter @ 136
It was just snark on my part — corrected by Brendan further up. But she — “Democratic Consultant” that she is — is always a disappointment. For Chrissakes, after Bush drowns her hometown of NO, she’s on the tube praising the fool. Just mho……..
Hi Jane and Y’all:
Just tuning in to hear Lott: He’s been dissed! He can’t believe it after 19 years (count ‘em – he is) LOL!
Redshift @ 105
i don no now, you’re beginnin’ to get awful close to that Evil lewshun stuff. better watch out!!
Redshift @ 72
But what about McCain. Who would have thought he would have let go of his adamant opposition to torture? I see a coercive force in there somewhere. It may be just about Rove and money, but Cheney is so evil that for me he is the likeliest suspect.
brendan @ 133
How? Did they blackmail W? Did they hold a gun to his head? (figuratively, please NSA) No. Congress and the President are responsible, and don’t fawn off blame on anyone else.
Ha!
Durbin to Lott:
You can’t say you’re ready to vote, and then object to the vote – you can’t have it both ways!! (people laughed)
anne @ 149
or 30.
Poor Poor Trent. Durbin is smacking him around like a shuttlecock.
Nequals1 @ 150
and all the courtesies of the Senate are now gone
waa waa
Redshift @ 147
Please remind him to wear those Army Boots first … *g*
BigMitch @ 87
Mitch: do you really consider Chomsky an “Israel hater?” I’ve read some of his stuff and from what I got out of it he seems more of a general gadfly, but I have not really read a lot of his writings.
Maybe Trent’s got evening plans he doesn’t want to miss.
I dislike Joe Lieberman
mui @ 139
That’s another steaming narrative that was served up. Evangelical Christians think Lieberman is going to hell. Hell, they think most other Christians are going to hell.
There’s a kind of double standard here when we attribute all sorts of motivation (fairly, in my opinion) to “Christians” or “Evangelicals”, but the fact that Lieberman is an Orthodox Jew isn’t considered pertinent. As far as I’m concerned, it explains the motive behind a lifetime of his actions regarding our foreign policy as well as anything else.
I imagine that some commenters, like Big Mitch, will feign indignation at the accusation of “dual loyalty”, as if dual loyalties weren’t a common thing, one not necessarily bad. Here’s when it’s a malign thing, however, verging on treasonous: when you bulldoze American girls or bomb Americans in Lebanon (and Haifa!) and refuse to allow a cease fire.
anne @ 148
Crankier, then crankiest. It’s nice to be home for once in time to see some CSPAN debate live. Durbin up now- they’re really going through w/the all nighter, yeah? Time to send out for the blankets & footy pajamas…
punaise @ 161
I didn’t know that!
I’m just about ready to hit the pool out back.
Hey… I voted for Gore/Lieberman. Would I do that again? Not on your life. Back then I thought Liberman was okay. I made a mistake. What can I say?
Here’s something to munch on.
Arianna does it agian:
“Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards may not want to participate in debates sponsored by FOX News, but they like taking cash from officials of the company considered an arm of the conservative movement by many liberal Democrats.”
althespook: Re-Elect Gore stickers are available here:
http://www.cafepress.com/electionblues/884543
fahrender @ 157
Yep. But I consider myself an Israel lover, so consider the source. (I admit I am biased.) I call someone an Israel hater if Israel can do no right in their eyes.
cleter @ 88
cleter : it’s good to see you back up to form! i’m imagining Lewis Black say those lines …..
clarification of #160:
Americans were being subject to Hezbollah bombardment in Haifa at the same time we were rejecting a cease fire.
Maybe the good Senators were reminded of the unfortunate fate of Paul Wellstone, who just might have stood up and filibustered and really tried to stop the upcoming criminal war against Iraq.
Brendan – good points on the hideous bombardment of Lebanon a year ago. Christians were killed, Canadians, and a couple UN peacekeepers, deliberately targeted.
I’m a fan of the phrase “a passionate attachment to a country other than one’s own.”
Elliott @ 156
i just found out that i’m completely confused about today’s filibuster.
punaise @ 159
abhor, abominate, allergic to, antipathize, avoid, condemn, contemn, deplore, despise, detest, disapprove, disesteem, disfavor, disrelish, eschew, execrate, hate, loathe, mind, not appreciate, not endure, object to, regret, resent, scorn, shudder at, shun, abominate, be sickened by, despise, detest, execrate, feel disgust for, hate, loathe, scorn, view with horror
McCain is going to pass out. Someone get the paddles ready!
LS @ 163
yeah, whodathunk…
hayduke @ 164
I have mine ready. i was just being snarky.
Prob is Murdoch and the MSM have annointed clinton the nominee much as they did boosh in 1999 and 2000. I watched it happen with great interest (my mom’s sister was the first woman to run the national desk at a major Texas daily newspaper. we learned all sorts of interesting things from her in the 1960’s like the daily slant meeting (now called the Gang of 500)). So Gore is going to have to break through that to get the nomination. the key will be a full on deadlock at the convention, with even the superdelegates split evenly. we will have to wait and see.
brendan @ 160
My indignation is not feigned. I resent the implication. How do you react when people accuse your liberalism as being sympathy for terrorists.
You know, terrorists. Like Hamas and Hezbollah. Sorry to interject some (reality)(indignation) here.
punaise @ 174
I do not recall.
BigMitch @ 163
would you put Jacopo Timmerman in the same category as Chomsky?
Chomsky is very critical of modern governments generally. He doesn’t spare the US in his critiques, I know that. Whether or not he is unfairly critical of Israel I can’t say …..
Oklahoma kiddo @ 164
I will forgive you if you give me one of those mint juleps.
selise @ 169
Perhaps they have a few Republicans willing to make a quorum of 51.
BigMitch @ 88
i don’t think this is so… hatred? got any evidence? thanks.
LS @ 175
Hey, No Gonzales Channeling At The Lake! (It’s on the sign in the parking lot, next to where you get your beach towels and coolers)
BigMitch @ 165
I imagine Chomsky didn’t consider it his job to “love” Israel when there were enough powerful and well armed Israelis and Americans doing that already.
For my part, Israel’s crimes bother me only insofar as my own governemnt is an accomplice (or worse, an inciter) to them. And as for America’s crimes, at this point their are quite enough America-lovers that I believe it’s a wiser course to err by speech and deed in the belief that we, too, “can do no right”; we, like Israel, need as much criticism as possible, not less. Put me down with Chomsky in that regard.
cleter @ 178
impeachmint julep?
With the Courant hammering on him like this, one hopes he’s now in his last term. On retirement, no doubt he’ll be a Fox commentator.
Marie Roget @ 163
Perhaps dydies for Repubs, too?
punaise @ 174
I do not recall.selise @ 171
blah, blah, blah, so let’s vote..
I object!! blah, blah, blah, we’re willing to vote, let’s do it!
I object!!! blah, blah, blah, so let’s vote…
I object!
A’57 @ 124
Why decide? They’re not mutually exclusive. One can be both. Lieberman is.
May have been already been posted-
Yes. This IS war. So is LIEberman taking a summer recess?
Big Mitch @167
Just wondering how Israel reciprocates with all Americans.
Elliott @ 182
New promo item! get Mint Julep mix bottles, relabel “ImpeachMINT Julep” and mail (empty) to all senators and congressmen…
Elliott @ 145
is there a problem with that?
Last time I saw Latte truly cranky he, in a fit of petulance, rearranged a bill so the MS waterfowl hunting season was greatly extended, simply to irk another senator who represented one of the northern midwestern states. The simple purpose of his action was to leave fewer geese available to fly thru the other senator’s state during their hunting season.
This is, I think, quite indicative of the noble Senator Latte’s level of gravitas and statesmanship. What’s not to love?
Get Tough @ 116
I like it.
althespook @ 189
I’m sorry but no. Please don’t do this to the staff.
althespook @ 182
I..um..uh..um..take issue with your characterization…I am not aware that I know that…so..I..um..do..not..recall…yeah, that’s the ticket.
selise @ 169
Or they are. I’m not sure whether Carpetbagger has it right or not.
Levin on the President and Iraq:
“a litany of delusion”
There is more to Lieberman than living in his “callow and hypocrtical” world. What is the stuff that Lieberman is made of? He would send hundreds of thousands to their needless deaths (Iraq citizens and Americans) while his children lead a life above and beyond that of national service. I think Lieberman is all about his theocratic lifestyle. He is not American in that sense but a theocrat who would endanger the world, not just the United States. I say this without reference to his particular form of organized religon. Because that is just a form of his expression manifesting itself in a sense of imperialism which is not nationalistic but instead theocratic. Lieberman is not an American trying to protect traditional American values. He is an American advancing his theocratic perception of the world, outside America.
spurious @ 191
Clark is raising money through his own mailing list for Gang of fourteen member Senator Mark “Lieberlovin’” Pryor D-AR, and will not respond to my letters asking him why?
It’s as bad as raising money for Joe himself, imo.
BigMitch @ 174
Scratch the word “liberalism”. But if someone accuses my foreign policy views as “sympathy” for terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah, it’s a fair accusation. I do have “sympathy” in them, in that I believe that they are entities that have fair grievences with the Israelis. I won’t rehash the nature of those grievances.
Look, just so understand where an “Israel hater” is coming from, I think that as an American the U.S. is equally complicit with Israel in what they’re doing; last summer’s Lebanon invasion made that abundantly clear. Without my government’s support the Israelis would be far more likely to make an advantageous peace. With the balance of power so skewed in their favor, however, why would they stop?
Check out this link from local Phoenix news on McCain. The lear jet is gone and he is flying coach class.
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/my…..geId=3.1.1
LS @ 191
Have you had a chance to watch clips of the mob bosses being called before the Kefauver Committee? AG’s performance was spot on…the chilling difference is, he was the attorney general of the united states, not a mob boss….
BigMitch @ 167
being critical of a STATE is not inherently a racist act. what bugs me whenever someone defends Israel is that it has a subtext of an accusation of anti-semitism, and it causes people to try to edit their remarks, based on that sensitivity.
w/ all due respect to your love of Israel, the interests of the U.S. and that of Israel are NOT coincidental- they converge in many issues, and vastly diverge in other matters. Since Israel receives the largest percentage of U.S. aid, besides having the most powerful military in the region, I think they’re doing all right, and subject to criticism, when due, from citizens of our country who support them.
Redshift @ 192
That’s the problem. Nobody seems to really understand what’s going on here.
BigMitch @ 98
Demosthenes, Diogenes was the guy living in a barrel.
Whenever I think of the Israelis, I Remember The Liberty.
I do not hate Israel. But I also am wary of them.
Ghostman
althespook @ 200
that’s actually troubling.
OT but of interest. Here is a pretty thorough discussion of the rules around filibusters and cloture, even if it is written by Lugar, it is worth a read.
burnspbesq @ 188
And yet the writers of Grease (musical) allowed the word Putzie to slip in as the name of a character. I always wondered about that.
dachoste @ 198
Big Mitch accused neither of us of anti-Semitism. Don’t make the mistake of countering aspersions before they’re cast.
brendan @ 136
i actually didn’t dislike Lieberman at the time, i just thought, Joe Lieberman? what does that guy bring to the table? couldn’t they find somebody more focused and personable? Joe Lieberman is a dweeb.
so i thought then …..
burnspbesq @ 188
But which one goes first … *g*
On the Nelson blackmail thing, this may be relevant:
Nelson Spews GOP Talking Points on Iraq On New Colbert Report.
One cannot serve two masters. you will always end up loving one and despising the other. guess which master Ben Nelson has chosen?
fahrender @ 205
Big Mitch had the best counter-explanation to mine. His explanation also has the virtue of being simpler.
Rainer Vogel @ 203
meanwhile Bush struggles with damn Oakleys.
althespook @ 202
actually, there’s a pretty good explanation in the comments over there #20.
and I see the AP has picked up on the Bob Packwood precedent. could be some wild times tonight!
Calling all FDLers in Toronto … Juslin is in town for a couple of days … if you’d like to join us for drinks Tuesday or Wednesday evening, please get in touch with me via Facebook.
I honestly can’t look at the photo of Liarman again. It makes me stomach feel ill.
brendan @ 209
that’s usually where it goes, but you’re right, i stand corrected…
Rainer Vogel @ 204
Yeah, and Demosthenes, he had some rocks in his head..:)
brendan @ 183
Chomsky. “self-hating Jew” is always an accusation leveled at him. I find it specious. I haven’t read enough Chomsky to be authoritative, but I have found certain passages of his writing right-on and some kind of cracked (especially when he’s writing on Asia.) “Israel-Hater” is too much. I am not a lover or a hater, I wish the common folk of Israel well. It doesn’t have to be this or that. But for some reason people tend to like that “either you are for or against” paradigm
TiredFed @ 215
that seems to be a reasonable explanation, thanks.
selise @ 181
Thanx Selise. People tend to boil it all down to one pot, don’t they.
Off-topic and EPU territory begging: For the first time in years, thanks to the absence of DeLay and Abramoff, we have a chance to end the slavery, forced abortions and forced prostitution in the Northern Marianas Islands. The Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee will hold a hearing this Thursday.
There’s a lot going on right now, I know, but this will likely be the only chance these victims will have to have their human rights and dignity restored. If you are calling your senators about the war or any other topic, please, please, please ask them to support S. 1634. Especially if they are on that committee. Recommend this diary, too.
Selise: Yeah, this is definitely not your normal filibuster. As far as I can tell, calling for 60 votes (as McConnell keeps doing) on an amendment is also not normal. So I guess it has gone beyond normal rules, and they’re sort of making it up as they go along (”well, if you can do that, I can do this…”).
Are gay sweaters just for campaigning or can one wear them to a filibuster?
what is proper filibuster attire?
TiredFed @ 216
the Bob Packwood precedent?
Can you explain, please?
althespook @ 171
Al, no disrespect here but i think you’re dreaming. hope i’m wrong ……
Anyone seen Harriet??? tic..toc..tic
brendan @ 181
As the Talmud says: A wise man delighteth in reproof.
And I don’t go around initiating pro-Israelli rants on liberal blogs. You can check out my own to see that I rarely touch on Israel. But I cannot stand idly by when someone is libeled. And often criticism of Israel borders on libel.
As to dual loyalties: Not uncommon, not necessarily bad, is what I hear you saying. Sure, you have a loyalty to your country (or let us say, the Constitution in these present circumstances) And you have a loyalty to your spouse, let us say. Great dual loyalties. And if the two came in conflict, I might wonder where your greater loyalty would lie. (e.g. would you turn in your wife if you learned she was a spy?)
When the term dual loyalty is used in the Israel discussion it has a special meaning. It is used (perhaps not by you) as code that American Jews are not as loyal to America as are other Americans. I say bullshit to that, with genuine indignation.
I suppose that you and I are alike, in that we love our Country and we are angry that it is getting fucked over by this crop of crooks.
leftdcin72 @ 197
Big Mitch can correct me, but I suspect that one of the things that might bother him is that it seems we offer Lieberman unusual scrutiny, and that Lieberman’s Jewishness is sometimes a subtext of that. If that’s the case, he’s overstating that aspect of it: he gets special treatment from most people here because he’s such a prominent and ostentatious traitor to the Democratic party in the ends of continuing the war.
I personally couldn’t resist raising the fact that he’s an Orthodox Jew in response to the absurd notions that he was picked for the 2000 ticket to appeal to religious voters or that he clings to the war because he is a “theocrat”, — i.e., any other reason than that he’s an Orthodox Jew.
Many many thanks to TiredFed for this link. I’m going to repost it in its entirety here for those who might find it useful:
The 30-hour rule only kicks in if Reid gets his 60 votes for cloture. That’s not what this all-nighter is really about. Here’s how it works:
Once the amendment is up for debate, it can only come to an up-or-down vote if with unanimous consent or if cloture is invoked by 60 votes. The Republicans won’t give unanimous consent, which in effect is a filibuster since nothing else can happen unless cloture is invoked or the amendment is pulled from the floor.
so Reid has to try to invoke cloture. If he gets the 60 votes, the rule says that debate on the underlying question (i.e., the amendment) can continue only for 30 more hours. At the end of 30 hours an up or down will happen. Since it is inevitable, usually unanimous consent for an immediate vote is given as soon as cloture is invoked. This is not going to happen in this case, since there will not be 60 votes for cloture and the amendment will not see an up-or-down vote.
Now here is the trick: a cloture petition cannot be considered until the next legislative day. You can’t get a vote to invoke cloture and start the 30-hour clock until the Senate adjourns for the day and reconvenes the next day. The way you get a Strom Thurmond-type filibuster is to take the floor and refuse to yield. In essence this means that tomorrow never comes, because the Senate can’t adjourn as long as the filibustering senator has the floor. As long as it is the same legislative day, the cloture motion can’t come to a vote. Of course, this true filibuster is only necessary if the votes for cloture are there, which is not the case on this amendment.
What Reid is doing, essentially, is filibustering the cloture motion. He intends to keep the Senate in session all night to prolong the legislative day and keep the cloture motion from coming to a (failing) vote. In principle there is no limit to the amount of time this can take, so 30 hours is irrelevant. The cloture motion “ripens” as soon as the Senate adjourns for the day and convenes the next day, whether that happens in 1 hour or 100 hours.
What Freddoso is driving as is Reid’s inability to keep the Senate from adjourning. You need 51 senators for a quorum, and if there is no quorum the body can adjourn immediately. When that happens, if it comes out of adjournment the cloture motion is ripe, so there goes your all-nighter. Assuming that the Republicans plus Lieberman maintain enough discipline not to show for a quorum call, the stunt really is over.
The truly aggressive option would be to continue debate on the amendment endlessly, but that will get nowhere and cause Reid problems politically as he fruitlessly grinds the Senate to a halt. A tactic like that can only work if you have the president on your side; if the president is sniping at you from the press room, you are screwed. If he can draw attention to GOP obstructionism with this stunt, so much the better. The technical truth, though, is that Reid is filibustering the body that he runs, if he gets away with it at all.
I don’t know if this is as clear as I want it to be; if not, sorry.
Comment by skeptic — 7/17/2007 @ 2:09 pm
Elliott @ 226
Packwood was carried feet first into the Senate by the Capitol Police when the majority called for a quorum and the Senate Sergeant at Arms was asked to enforce it.
LS @ 229
22 minutes and counting.
BigMitch @ 176
Eureka Springs @ 195
Ouch. I liked Wes when he ran the last time.
LS @ 229
Has shrub not spirited her away to.. oh, I don’t know, Paraguay?
do-si-do @ 225
Gay sweaters are just for campaigning. For filibusters you should wear footy pajamas.
TiredFed @ 233
Ooo!
This could be a fun night!
hey al. great idea. wish I had thought of that. folks should start referring to Reid’s idea as the Anti-filibuster or the filibuster-buster. hmmm. needs work.
mui @ 220
I don’t think he’s every cracked. He sometimes is very dismissive, or summarizes a complex situation with what amounts to snark. Trouble is, if you don’t know about the situation, it’s hard to know it’s snark, so he sounds cracked.
cleter @ 238
I hear Senator Vitter has “special needs” in re his bedtime garment options…(think Huggies…)
I really hate seeing photos of Lieberman, Bush, Rove (xtra yuck) Libby and cheney. Could you maybe use a photo of a paper bag with eyeholes, with the person’s name? It would spare a lot of people a lot of queasiness!
leftdcin72 @ 193
….. and, unless he should really surprise me and vote to restore habeas corpus, inside America as well.
cleter @ 238
You’re killin’ me! You must give spew alert!
I
Cannot
Resist
Cute
Overload!
The cloakroom meeting of the Rethuglican senate caucaus has begun! Our spy sends a webcam picture….
cleter @ 238
Absolutely. Or perhaps these matching ensembles plus trendy nightcaps….
GordonM @ 242
If this is the Chomsky who tried and failed to crack the computerization of natural language problem, he is at least incredibly brilliant. My boss is a comp sci guru and talks about chomsky and natural language processing a lot…
althespook @ 229 –
yup. i am confused.
burnspbesq @ 186
Actually, I heard the joke, Look at that schmuck on a camel.
Schmuck is derived from the word for decoration or jewlery. (a jewler is a shmucker, not a jelly manufacturer.) It has the connotation of a useless decoration, as for example a horse’s dick. And so, the word schmuck carries a different connotation. It is a useless, inneffectual putz.
GordonM @ 242
I remember reading something in which he dismisses the camps and atrocities that happened in China and Vietnam. Could be wrong. Cause it really sent me. I know people who survived those camps in Vietnam(a friend’s two teenage daughters, part Chinese). And Deng Xiapeng would be the first to address the atrocities of Mao.
meanwhile Bush struggles with damn Oakleys.
How nice! One of the few occasions where he makes me smile.
althespook @ 206
but he promised me he would still love meeee ……
Not only does Gramps McCain want the soldiers to stay and die, he wants them to start dying in Iran as well. I see this getting pretty ugly when the R’s start missing their massage appointments. Does Madame Woo’s Happy Endings deliver?
althespook @ 246
LOL you’re right about the cute attack there. Much less the squeak!squeak!squeak! that’s going on among them at the moment. *laughs* (yes i’v had guinea pigs before, i’m familiar with their vocalisations.)
selise @ 249
read 232 above. i think it clears everything up, unfortunately.
Because Nobody Cares More About
the TroopsJoe than Joefahrender @ 252
they always say that
BigMitch @ 229
This is a false accusation: “…code that American Jews are not as loyal to America as are other Americans.” I made no such accusation and I repeatedly and strenuously argue here that A*P*C is an extremist organization that is cleaving ever more desperately to the Republican party than it ever did to American Jews at large, whose opposition to the war is well established fact.
It’s very important that you separate particular people in the government from “American Jews”. So, for example, take Douglas Feith. He is an Israeli spy. Saying he has “dual loyalties” would be too charitable. Wurmser, to take another example, has an Israeli wife — in that he has demonstrable “dual loyalties”, not in themselves bad, until you view them in conjunction with his activities with Feith. Libby was Rich’s lawyer; Rich was pardoned on the request of the Israelis because he was an intelligence asset. Once again, “bad” dual loyalties. Conrad Black. Richard Perle and his “Trireme partners” (he is the perfect representative of the intersection of the war-profiteer lobby and the Israeli lobby) Shall I go on? With Lieberman, I think maybe you’re right: it’s unempirical, unproven, to divine his motives for his foreign policy, and I shouldn’t necessarily hold him to some special standard over the legions of quite gentile war scum. In fact, I’ll concede it’s an evidence of a prejudice on my part: I suspect, wrongly or not, that an Orthodox Jew is more likely to support American militarism in the Middle East.
By the way, I responded because I remember a few days back that you bristled at the imagined accusation of “dual loyalty”. I included the reference to you knowing you were on this thread and might respond; I wasn’t doing it behind your back.
fahrender @ 252
does he call? does he send flowers? Then it’s time to face reality, i’m afraid. And aren’t you in germany? whatinhell is Nelson doing messing around in europe for xanetia’s sake?
althespook @ 252
i did (read it that is). isn’t there a simpler way to go? why was this process chosen? how does reid expect to be able to explain this to the news media? i am not impressed.
selise @ 260
this is a bone to the netroots. nothing more. a show pony to be trotted out if he gets more online criticism (I have been waiting for this, BTW…) like i said in the previous thread, we has been had. again. meet the new boss. same as the old boss.
brendan @ 256
I assumed as much, and am pleased to find out that I was right.
selise at 260 — It is the only way they can go under the current rules. So, impressed or not, it’s what we have to work with at the moment.
mui @ 216
this is a phenomena especially associated with Israeli/Palestinian/Arab matters. it has always been extremely difficult for mediators to resolve the difficulties there. Witness the assassinated Egyptian President and Israeli Premier. People who make good faith efforts to bring the two sides together are ostracised, marginalised, cast out or shot.
Jack Reed up.
Brandon says: “Rich was pardoned on the request of the Israelis because he was an intelligence asset.”
I never heard this accusation before. Rich was a very generous donor to Israeli charities. The israelis did lobby for a pardon of a different person — damn, I am forgetting his name but he was convicted of BIG spying — and Clinton rejected their pleas.
TiredFed @ 231
Is that the deadline?
selise @ 260
hi selise. Harry is going to have a heck of a time selling this to the MSM, but perhaps the drama (if there is any) will help. It might get folks to talk about it. Harry has few options with a slim 1-vote margin and he really can’t hope to get 10 or 11 votes for cloture (you never know, though). My sense is he is trying to show how obstructionist the Republicans are and perhaps turn enough heads to get the votes he needs. He really has no other options (except, of course, to give up). Dragging a few Senators feet-first (or ass over tea kettle) for a quorum call ought to get a few laughs, at least.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 263
The Republicans have filibustered everything the dems have tried to pass and the MSM has not called them on it. I guess it’s only a filibuster if the dems do it. I’m glad Harry is doing this if only for media attention…
anne @ 267
yup. 5 p.m. for Harriet’s lawyer (or Harriet herself) to respond. anyone know where Harriet lives? anyone with a camera?
BigMitch @ 263
I think you were right to rebuke me for the insinuations about Lieberman, only for the reasons I stated in #259, not because it echoes the “dual loyalty” accusation. In fact, I think the “dual loyalty” issue needs to be addressed in particular regard to the activities of A*P*C. I think they need to register as foreign lobbyists.
Many Americans have a motherland or fatherland.
I think that American financial aid and foreign policy support is a bit disproportionate for certain lands.
new thread gang.
BigMitch @ 264
Pollard. A filthy, disgusting traitor. And, the Israelis should’ve been ASHAMED on spying on the USA, it’s greatest protector.
Again, I Remember The Liberty. One should be wary when dealing with the Israeli gov’t.
Ghostman
althespook @ 243
he is , indeed, the very same ……
TiredFed @ 271
I think she lives in Dallas.
Jack Reed calmly & methodically making the points against current “wait ’til September” rift, as did Levin before him…
althespook @ 245
He is a linguistics god.
brendan @ 227
Ghostman @ 275
Look, the Israelis aren’t unexceptional in this regard. They’re a state. They have interests, which include spying on us. The problem is that everyone in our media and, more importantly government go around trying to pretend they’re not doing those things and that we have a blood bond.
althespook at 262 — I call bullshit on that one. This has been in the works well before any of the netroots started pushing on anything — the pushing may have sped up the timetable, but they were already planning something along these lines for quite a while (see statements from Conrad and Feingold, among others, for hints of that). They had to do something to break the GOP obstruction stranglehold — and this is the maneuver that is open to them under the parliamentary rules of the Senate in the current situation in which they find themselves.
I have spent hours on the phone with staffers, folks in the Senate parliamentarians office, and Senate scholars the last few days trying to find a better way. If you have one, do share — but they are doing the best they have under the rules at the moment.
Sometimes I think people just find a reason to complain about everything, regardless of how hard folks may be trying to make things better. Maybe we should try some glass half full thinking instead of constantly bitching at the leadership when they are actually DOING something for a change. Carrot and stick…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 260
ok. but why say that the Rs are filibustering if it’s really the Ds? and if the Ds can’t make the Rs filibuster, then i feel kinda stupid having asked my senators to force a filibuster
but, maybe i’m still confused about what the process is… i thought i understood it, but it’s now clear to me that i do not.
thanks to everyone for trying to help me understand.
althespook @ 254
Oh, Al! Please! I don’t want to talk about it now! I’m soooo
upSET !!!!!!!!!!!
LS @ 277
In Highland Park, IIRC. I grew up in dallas.
Let me tell you a little anecdote to help you understand the mindset of ms Miers and her neighbors:
Highland Park is a small suburb of Dallas Texas mainly centered around the Southern Methodist University campus. It has long been the residential enclave of the dallas elite, specifically WASP elite.
Once civil rights began to be an issue, black persons began driving through HP at night simply to save time. Not desiring these “persons” to pollute their scenic streets, the HP police would pull over EVERY car that wasn’t a lincoln or caddy with black persons in it and charge them with some crime, usually requiring being taken to the local jail and forced to get bail. The favorite was “drunk in a car”.
They pulled this stunt once too often. In the late 1970’s during the Carter Administration the Assistant US Attorney for Civil Rights was driving with his wife to visit an old friend in HP and was subjected to this horse manure.
Let’s just say the wrath of ghod (or of the federal civil rights division) descended on HP. it has been behaving itself ever since.
But the mindset remains…and Harriet Miers is a textbook case of it.
Ghostman @ 275
The Liberty canard is a libel. Pollard was a traitor to the United States. Israel was stupid to employ a Jewish spy, against their normal practices. Heads rolled in Israel for this.
BigMitch @ 267
Yes, Pollard. Here’s a reputable source on the Rich pardon:
http://archive.salon.com/news/…..index.html
Once again, this is not some special fiendishness on the part of the Israelis, but, nevertheless, a case of demonstrably divergent interests.
BigMitch @ 267
Jonathan Pollard. Who was spying, for them, on us.
Lieberman is a festering wound on a moribund body politic. Acute intervention is indicated in a situation like this, that involves revitalization, followed by a regimen of prophylaxis that allows the body to rid itself of such opportunistic parasites.
BigMitch @ 267
Pollard. But there is list to choose from.
Brendan @ 259
lets not forget that A*P*C is on trial for espionage against this country?
Steve Rosen, AIPAC’s former foreign policy chief, and Keith Weissman, its former Iran analyst are charged with illegally transmitting classified information to tel Aviv.
In regards to Iran, what a coincidence?
Larry Franklin turned states evidence and plead guilty, so these are pretty strong allegations.
‘Spy’ is kind of a light term for Feith – how about operative? He and the other neo-con’s don’t just passively transmit classified national security info to another country, they operate levers of power within the US Govt.
“According to press reports, [Rich] has assisted in the rescue of Jewish families from hostile countries, and he’s believed to have gathered information for Israeli intelligence agencies as well.” per the link supplied by Brendan.
To mention him in the same breath as Pollard seems harsh.
And more to the point, the link points to an article that justifies the Rich pardon as part of the effort to pressure Israel into a peace deal, which would be a good thing.
selise at 283 — Because there was an argument that this could be done — forcing a filibuster — but the current thinking, which has changed in the last couple of days after a whole lot of research, is that this is the avenue that is open under the current rules. We’re all doing the best we can do to get things moving with the information that we have. And when we get new information, we try to make the best of the advantageous bits in it.
It is as simple as this: the GOP has been obstructing everything since the Dems took over in January in a strategy to mire the Congress in a bogged down stalemate by doing mini-filibusters and then moving cloture so that the Dems had to withdraw bills in the Senate or see them go down in a cloture vote. In the House, there has been a different strategy to also stall everything. Because the Dems have tiny margins (and in the case of the Senate, none at all since we are stuck depending on Lieberman among other wafflers), they have not been able to break through this.
Unfortunately, they listened to pundits who were telling them to “go along to get along” and compromise, which has only emboldened the GOP to keep stalemating everything. This week’s push was to get them over that failed mindset and moving forward on something more dynamic to break the stalemate. Here’s hoping that calling the GOP on the carpet for the obstructing jerks they have been shakes things up enough that we start seeing Dems do it publicly and more often — and gets the media talking about it instead of ignoring it or, worse, supporting it like Broder and others have been tacitly doing by promoting “the spirit of bipartisanship” which was clearly not working. Does that help at all?
See you all upstairs.
btw, all, fresh thread, up and running for everyone.
Big Mitch at #286.
“Against their normal practices” strikes me as a generous interpretation of the Israelis here. Maybe as it pertains to deep-cover spies, but A*P*C engages in espionage, too. And back to “dual loyalty”: There are many in the U.S., not just Israel, who lobby for the release of Pollard, and according to what I’ve heard, Clinton almost let him go.
When I talk about Feith being a “spy”, by the way, I understand that in some sense he is a “double-agent”. Cheney is no dummy, and he gets these people to work for him. Another point of concession: I well understand how undue influence works both ways in the U.S. Israeli relationship.
althespook @ 232From my reading of the roles (what do I really know, not much) atthespook, I think there is one additional interesting point.
So Harry could refuse to adjourn the Senate, which allows everyone to go home but keeps any other business from proceeding. I suspect that there is going to be some intense poll watching as this unfolds and IF the public see the Dems as standing up for principle it could continue for a long time.
BigMitch @ 290
You’re absolutely right on all points here. One of the things that frizzles the circuits of a robo-Republican who brings up the Rich pardon was the fact the Israelis were lobbying for it.
I’ve got to go. Enjoy the “marathon debate”.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 281
CHS, i do not doubt a word that you say. and I fully believe that the dems are committed to change and will do everything they can to bring it about. And I’m certain the staffers have all worked very hard. You are far more of an insider in these matters than I am and I know that.
But it is the results that count!
And again, the results are going to be poor at best if these analyses are correct. The MSM will spin it as a Democratic Fillibuster, it will get little or no positive media coverage, and since in the end the rethugs can spike it with little or no effort on their part, it will not even force them to do anything concrete that could be used against them.
Check back over my previous comments on these matters. I see the fire in Leahy and Pelosi and Conyers and Waxman’s eyes. I know they want chimpy and darth not just impeached and convicted and removed from office but also tried in both civil and criminal courts and their assest frozen or stripped and themselves doing real prison time. And they want this to apply to many of their spear carriers and water carriers as well. I fully support this process with both words and deeds (including money!).
My problem is with Reid himself. I consider him a DINO who is burdened with potentially fatal scandals, is hardly up to our standards in terms of his support for progessive issues like freedom of choice in reproductive issues, and most importantly is apparently clueless in some aspects of the current constitutional crisis.
And there is no question that the lack of Senator Johnston and the quisling LIEberman make his job much harder. But given the parliamentary hurdles on this current effort, which surely his very competent staff (and i mean that, it is not snark) should have been able to warn him about, i can’t see it as anything but a way to get media coverage. and since he has to know that the msm will spin it to support the rethugs, his only logical target is the netroots. And remembe that Reid is old school, where press releases, home town paper bill passing stories (Reid fights for x by getting the y resolution through congress) were a large part of maintaining the grip of power. The american public has never really understood the parliamentary mechanisms of lawmaking and that’s no accident, it is much easier to control them that way.
So my conclusion is the same. He means well, he really wants to stop the war, get rid of boosh and co, but he can’t do it and he’s becoming concerned about the netroots. so he has chosen to try a parliamentary maneauver to generate some press so his people can say “we’re doing something.” That used to be ok, but in this deadly high speed high mortality political and real world environment, it isn’t enough.
And I know I’m a guest here. I don’t want to overstay my welcome. But I lived in the military community for a long time in my professional career. I SWAM in bullshit for most of my life. I don’t emit it.
realworld @ 296
So Harry could refuse to adjourn the Senate, which allows everyone to go home but keeps any other business from proceeding. I suspect that there is going to be some intense poll watching as this unfolds and IF the public see the Dems as standing up for principle it could continue for a long time.
Okay, it this ACTUALLY has a chance to work I’ll eat every harsh word I said about the process. It’s just that after watching the D’s screw up year after year after year, I have a large quantum of skepticism built up….
Brendon — Can i wring one more concession from you. Guys like Falwell, (RIH) or other evangelicals are fully as pro-Israel as is Joe L.
Yet the term “dual loyalty” is never raised w/r/t them.
RIH= Rest in Hell.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 291
a little bit. guess i need to go do some reading of the rules… my fault for making the calls yesterday before i knew what i was talking about. now i better understand why the aide in kerry’s office was trying to tell me that they couldn’t force the Rs to fillibuster – i thought he was nuts, but i guess it was actually me being ignorant… and that’s why i feel really, really stupid now…
althespook — I think it’s been pretty clear from the pressure I’ve been asking you guys to bring to bear the last coupla days that I wasn’t exactly pleased with the status quo either. *g*
BigMitch @ 302
Falwell and his ilk are “pro-Israel” to the point of keeping Israel as a nation so they can force their obscene “end times” down our throats.
selise at 302 — If it makes you feel any better, I’ve had that same conversation with three different staffers and a Senate historian, and we all ended up haggling parliamentary minutiae, and none of us came to a set agreement. *g*
Christy Hardin Smith @ 303
we know it, CHS. we are all soldiers in the same army. The retching from the foul sludge we are forced to wade in is hurting us all…
…But perhaps there is hope! (From AmericaBLOG, developing…)
” Pelosi to lead march on Senate tonight during Iraq debate
by John Aravosis (DC) · 7/17/2007 05:04:00 PM ET
I just heard that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) is going to lead a march of House members from the House to the Senate tonight to lend their support to Senate Democrats who are holding an all-night session to challenge the Republicans’ ongoing filibuster of efforts to change the course in Iraq.”
Christy Hardin Smith @ 304
thanks, but not really… ‘cuz i hadn’t done the reading… was just sure of myself when i shouldn’t have been.
if you have any links to background reading… would appreciate them (at any time – know you are very busy now).
selise-
realworld at 207 posted a link to rules and information about cloture and filibuster……written by lugar, it’s a pdf……..interesting……..
selise at 307 — For a little light reading (and I say this with as snarky a tone as I can muster), the Congressional Research Service has put together a report on filibusters and cloture. You can find the link to it here.
dmac @ 307
thanks, i just downloaded it. is it the most authoritative resource?
BigMitch @ 302
okay. I’ll raise it. The Evangelicals delight in serving ‘Jehovah;’ a murderous diety slaughtering ‘unbelievers’ establishing his paradise on earth and in the afterlife.
Their allegience, like Joes, is not to the founding fathers, or the constitution, or liberal democracy. Their allegience, emotionally and psychologically is to some ‘big daddy’ god. Leiberman is probably linked in a more intricate manner than psychologically and emotionally with this ‘big daddy’ and his ‘people.’
Christy Hardin Smith @ 308
thank you (i think *g*).
selise says-”thanks, i just downloaded it. is it the most authoritative resource?”
don’t know, it’s one source of information, lugar is a rhodes scholar, i found it interesting, but haven’t read the whole thing yet…..but i would think the one christie linked to at 310 would be……
dmac @ 312
christy’s link included the same pdf. guess i better print it out, if that’s what i should read. am frustrated that i don’t know what senator reid et al are doing (and that they haven’t explained it)…. guess it’s up to me to try to figure it out.
p.s. i think Stanley Bach and Richard S. Beth are the authors (not lugar)
Re: post @ 312:
Their allegience is of course ‘dual’ to this nation and their believe system.
but their belief system is primal…as in primal therapy…that’s where the core of their being resides….
spurious @ 236
But you see, that balances the ticket very nicely with Gore. Clark is a moderate and a general. Of course he is going to have a pro-defense posture, and is going to support anti-terrorism measures. Yes, the Bushies “leak” info for political purposes, and terrorists hate us more for the Bushies’ policies in Iraq, but terrorists are still organizing, and they are still intent on doing the US and our allies great harm.
Clark is the perfect balance to Gore and his very left views–very left in this political atomsphere. Gore/Edwards appeal to only the left-wingers, and that, I don’t think, wins the day.
With balance like supporting Lieberman/Pryor we will have war, Supreme court problems, illegal abortion, no or disposable habeas corpus..
Al screwed up when he embraced Lieberman..Wes is doing the same with his embrace of Pryor..
None of it (beyond lips service) suggests anything other than an illusion of moving to the left, imo.
I would like to see Gore run and see Wes change his support of Pryor… but cannot accept Wes’s support of Pryor, don’t understand it since he supported Ned last year.
Pryor is one of the worst DLC Dems in the Senate and Wes supporting him at home in AR is a huge problem.
brendan @ 287
Is Big Mitch promoting the Clintons’ cover story that Rich was pardoned by the Clintons because of Israeli intelligence issues. NONSENSE. Rich has beeen spending his days hanging out in Lake Lugano doing not much of anything. The idea that this scoundrel played any role in his life except ripping off and evading justice is absolute rubbish. Are we to believe that Rich needed a pardon or was granted a pardon in faux recognition of his dutiful service to Israel? Is there no end to the bull—- of the Clintons?
nomolos @ 172
that pretty much covers it
As always with Zell Loserman, it is important to remember his party affliation:
Connecticut for Lieberman. Not
Lieberman for Connecticut.
It’s all about Joe and getting his droopy dog face in front of a live camera as much as possible.
Anyone watching the Senate debate happen to notice if Republican David Vitter is wearing his diapers over his suit? Heard that Republicans asked NASA to send them diapers for tonights slumper party.
Lieberman has completely lost his marbles. He is saying that we have to give Bush carte blanch to do whatever he wants in Iraq because AQI is such a horrible threat! Why would we continue betting on the horse most responsible for creating AQI in the first place? Bush has completely fucked up everything in Iraq and now Lieberman says we should let him do more? NO thank you.