There seems to be a big problem with the denizens of the Beltway, both in the political and media fields, in confusing process with intent. That is, to judge by their actions, there is this apparent perception that because the American people disagreed with the use of a process in the past, that they will always disagree with its use, regardless of intent — even though history shows repeatedly that this is not the case.
For example: Americans are not and have never been against the process of impeachment itself. What they oppose is its misuse by persons with bad intentions. Americans approved of impeaching Nixon, disapproved of impeaching Clinton, and approve of impeaching Bush and Cheney. In the case of Clinton, they didn’t see him as having done anything that rated impeachment, much less removal. In the cases of Nixon, Bush and Cheney, they clearly saw and see them each as richly deserving of both impeachment and removal.
For another example: Americans are not and have never been against the filibuster itself. What they oppose is its misuse by persons with bad intentions. Currently, they are very angry that good legislation isn’t being passed, but when the Democrats cave at the prospect of a Republican filibuster, it is the Democrats — not the Republicans — that get blamed for not passing the legislation.
The solution, of course, is to let the Republicans make it crystal-clear, with their filibusters and their vetoes and their sustaining of their vetoes, that they oppose tooth and nail the very legislation — on health care, finances, Iraq and pretty much everything else — that the American people most want.
Yes, the Republicans and their media minions will of course accuse the Democrats of wasting everyone’s time, even though it’s the Republicans who are holding up the legislation that the people most want. The simple truth is that the Republicans wasted most of the previous session of Congress; even with GOP obstructionism running rampant, the new Democratic-run Senate alone has already had 247 votes in less than six months. By contrast, when Republicans ran the Senate, there were 279 in all of the last year. In addition, in 2006 the old Republican-run Senate was only in session for 138 days, a post-war record low. Already this year, the Senate under Democratic control has been in session for 106 days. That’s pretty darned good, but it’d be even better if Harry Reid and Company had made it clear from the beginning that they weren’t going to save the Republicans from making fools of themselves.
As Chris Bowers said, “call your Democratic Senators and tell them you want to see Republicans actually filibuster if they want to stop our popular legislation. Cloture votes are simply not enough. Make Republicans stand in the well of the Senate and give every fiber of their beings to support their unpopular causes.”
Call your Democratic Senators. Tell them it is time for Republicans to be exposed — or rather, to be forced to either expose themselves as against the people, or to back the people’s agenda. It’s time to play hardball. Yes, Harry Reid’s already announced today that he intends to do just that. But let’s hold him to that!
Related posts:
- Senate Finance Committee Ends Amendment Process; Next Stop, Reid’s Office
- GOP Fearmongering Succeeds in Casting Doubt on Legitimacy of the Electoral Process
- Jon Tester Would Vote for Schumer’s Public Option: That’s 51
- Hey, Harry Reid, Stop Protecting Democrats Who Want to Filibuster the Public Option
- Advice on Health Care Reform from Malcolm X: Don’t Be a Chump






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zunoed?
Phoenix Woman!
Impeach!
PW!!!!
Impeach ‘em both for the sake of the future of our country! But for the sake of me? I can’t say it here on FDL, cause I respect you guys too much to drag y’all into fantasies with pitchforks an’ burning torches!
Thanks for the responses on attire, Christy and Jeralyn. I’m so excited, I might start packing tonight!
Now to read PW.
Tillman!!!!
Impeach!!!!
Torture!!
Impeach!!!
4th Branch!!!
Impeach!!!
Telling lies on purpose that got us into an occupation that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and probably millions of wounded.
Impeach!!!
Defying Congress!!!
Impeach!!!
Obstructing Justice!!!
Impeach!!!
Loo Hoo. @ 6
Shhhh….don’t forget pajamas and cheetos :)
Y’all inspired me. Especially Snarkassandra! So i’ve been writing a little ol’ blog. Here’s my humble bit:
http://www.c4cd6.org/?q=node/63
well, I added this downstairs a few flights but it’s very approprate here[
they are not “essentially{, they are “deliberately”
and why?
because they know the supreme court will rule in their behalf and thus etching in stone their unitary philosophy which will hold for a generation and probably two generations
this is why the congress and senate must act in unison
congress must deal with republicans and they must form a pact
after that pact they must say;
“this is not going to the supreme court where you have a win win situation;
if the supreme court comes down against your administration you will still defy congress, if they come down in behalf of the administration you will feel justified in defying congress
we therefore allow no supreme court decision, you comply or you are impeached, we will vote impeachment and we will rest in the senate without even presenting a case where you will be impeached in a summary judgement immediately”
that my friends is the only thing we can do, we CANNOT allow this a supreme court challenge
Senator Feingold’s stance on Impeachment efforts for Bush/Cheney is so confusing. Feingold supported Clintons Impeachment based on Clintons lies under oath about his BJOB. Feingold is not in support of IMPEACHMENT BASED ON AN INTELLIGENCE SNOWJOB carried out by the Bush admininstration that has resulted in disaster. Add to that a growing list of crimes that has created a “constitutional crisis”.
I really do not understand this serious discrepancy in Feingold’s thinking.
There is good reason why the Congress has a lower approval rating than Shrub!!! Duhh…!!!
Gawd, can somebody quote Tucker on Clinton and Lewinsky?
Tucker, you Protesteth too much!!! Hmmmmmmmmm.
The Tillman’s are shining examples of what true patriots are.
conniptionfit @ 5
Bring on the pitchforks and burning torches…metaphorically, of course!
UFO’s again. Well, well, well…they must be desperate to resort to that.
Actually, to tell a little personal story, my mother-in-law lives in Roswell. My sister-in-law’s good friend from Roswell told us that her father saw…I repeat…saw…I repeat…saw…the “little” people…recovered in the Roswell incident. No sh#t.
LS @ 14
F*cker is only being his putrid self!!! Even Abrams was annoyed by his responses! C’mon Abrams, Shuster would boost MSNBC’s daily ratings so much more than F*cker could ever do in a year!!!
I hate this war – all seventeen fucking years of it! IMPEACH!!
Ed*ard Teller @ 19
You nailed it!!!
Ed*ard Teller @ 19
wait,honey,what?
LS @ 9
check!
IMPEACH labels .pdf file uploaded on my web site on “fun files” page. Print them out on fluorescent labels and affix them to any and all requests for funds from candidates, from the DNC , the DSCC and the DCCC.
I’ve been throwing out so many of the appeals for money over the past few months. Now I will put IMPEACH labels on the return cards and send them back without a check. Let’s see if they get the message.
And it’s in BLUE ink just to remind them.
RevDeb @ 23
Gimmee, gimmee, gimmee!
What are the Democrats in Congress so worried about impeachment for? It didn’t do the Republicans any harm at all – and most people, as you say, didn’t even think Clinton deserved it.
Let’s get Bush up there and have him pull some Gonzo testimony and see how the American people like that. If he’s aquitted by the cadre of corrupt Republicans, it won’t matter much because he’ll be pretty close to the end of his term anyway.
conniptionfit @ 10
Congratulations, conniptionfit! Good job.
Part of the problem is that the campaign-industrial complex is a very conservative culture, and doesn’t want to make waves. Consultants and public relations firms have no interest whatsoever in having politicians and their staffs engage in the serious and demanding work of investigation and prosecution. They simply can’t make any money out of it.
The Clinton impeachment was a type of political “perfect storm” where the consultants and PR firms figured out how to make money, and pushed very hard to get their clients to jump in.
My (rather cynical) $0.02 on why Grandma Nancy and co. are reluctant to push.
On the impeachement of Cheney issue, Anna Eshoo Democrat of the 14th district of California is against any impeachment proceedings, claiming that it would bring a halt to all of the progress being made to undo the damage done by one party rule. From the reply:
“On the subject of impeachment, I’ve lived through the
impeachment process and witnessed firsthand how it tears the
country apart. I think it’s time to bring the country together. We
have to move forward and impeachment, in my view, will heavily
distract from the critical work of reversing the disastrous policies
of this Administration and will bring to a halt progress being made
on important issues including ending the war, healthcare, global
warming, and our nation’s economic competitiveness.
Since the start of this new Congress, the House has held hundreds
of oversight hearings covering the war in Iraq, the response to
Hurricane Katrina, the firing of United States Attorneys, and the
treatment of our veterans at Walter Reed. And there’s so much
more to do. We either grind to a halt, or move forward.”
Good evening dear friends.
The congress and Reid showed more spine today than they have been, and that’s a move in the right direction. Not enough of a spine, but better.
conniptionfit @ 24
click my name which links to web site. top tab that says “fun files” Download it and you’ve got it already formatted.
Kathleen, are you sure Feingold supported impeachment of Clinton? Cuz if so, it really worries me. Not so much about Feingold, but about the half that Nancy said we don’t even know.
Loo Hoo. @ 26
Well done!!
Impeachment:
In your heart,you know it’s right.
TexB @ 29
Ian had a great post, I think on Saturday that suggested just this type of thing.
citizen spot @ 28
There is no progress being made. Everything the dems try to do to correct the problems gets shot down either by the repigs or it is vetoed. There will be no progress made by this administration. Their mission is to amass power and take it from the people. We need to take it back.
Impeachment starts with Gonzo. Otherwise, a ton of evidence will be supressed, subpeonas won’t be enforced, justice will be obstructed. He’s a wall that has to come down.
GeorgeSimian @ 36
yes indeed
Holding Harry Reid to his intentions is an excellent idea!
Somehow I wonder if the DeeCee Dems just wish the blogosperites would stop bothering them. In case Reid’s announcement today is part of that, we must keep the pressure on.
Here’s today’s email to Senators Feinstein and Boxer:
Loo Hoo. @ 31
LooHoo. Thanks for the reminder about the half we don’t even know from Pelosi. It is both scary and perplexing.
RevDeb @ 23
Thanks!
Let’s just do the impeachment hearings and do it properly. And see where it goes. It’s the right thing to do.
Reading over everyone’s excitment about YKOS, I started wondering if you’ll be able to pick out the Cheney/neocon/CIA spies who will no doubt have to attend.
scory @ 27
I’m as cynical as you are, but, Clinton’s impeachment can be attributed to K Street, the MSM would benefit immediately by a Shrub/Dickhead impeachment! Just my $.02!!!
ls at 17 says: ”
UFO’s again. Well, well, well…they must be desperate to resort to that.
Actually, to tell a little personal story, my mother-in-law lives in Roswell. My sister-in-law’s good friend from Roswell told us that her father saw…I repeat…saw…I repeat…saw…the “little” people…recovered in the Roswell incident. No sh#t.”
ls, my friend’s dad, on is his deathbed, said he saw what was being discounted…..made sure everyone there heard what he was saying…on his deathbed, he was a silent kinda guy in his life, worked on special projects……….he worked for ge…….he was adamant about it……..made sure everyone knew what he meant before he passed…….he was pissed off about it………
I sense a major change from several months ago here, and in the larger public as to impeachment. Something’s going on.
For over six years, this country has suffered from a runaway, out of control, renagade executive branch of government that has been sadly lacking in accountability.
Impeachment is the ultimate accountability for the executive branch.
So what’s the problem, Democrats in Congress?
Afghanistan
http://skyreporter.com/
A Fulbright student from Afghanistan that I often have conversations with shared these questions and comments with me the other day.
Why does the U.S. focus on the Taliban and Al Queda in Afghanistan, Pakistan but not in Saudi Arabia where we know the majority of the 9/11 bombers came from? He has shared that his family members find this so confusing and contradictory.
His family also shares that the situation in Afghanistan is getting more dangerous and many people are leaning towards the Taliban due to the security that they seem to supply.
Has also shared that they are confused by the lack of funding for Afghani infrastructure. Turning agricultural crops into products, processing plants, training of soldiers etc. Three of his cousins have been killed during the last several months due to their involvement with the U.S.
ruffian @ 42
They tend to stick out. There were several at last year’s party from the Natl. Review, Hot Air, etc. We all had fun dissing Byron York. The right wing spooks will be even easier to identify. They will have the aura of yellow elephant around them.
ruffian @ 42
They’ll be the ones in Pajamas! Trying to fit in!!! ;-)
It is essential to keep the pressure on the Democrats.
I had this thought of late about impeachment.
The debate centers on the impact for the US. I’m not sure I’ve seen it set in a wider world view. Bush has made us the most hated nation in the world. So, it’s not just about “US”. It’s about regaining our ability to be an honest broker in the world at large.
Apart from the pro arguments from a national perspective (which I support) I can’t think of a better way to send a message to the world (and we are not it) about how Americans view the Bush regime, than IMPEACH!
Scrub Shrub.dmac @ 44
Something significant happened for sure.
Loo Hoo. @ 31
Feingold
http://www.counterpunch.org/memon10132005.html
ruffian @ 42
That’s a given. Carry on is all we can do. It’s still America, no?
Valley Girl @ 51
Amen. Preach it sister!
Valley Girl @ 51
What Valley Girl said.
IMPEACH!
Bravo, PW!
I like your approach!
Bob in
HIWIEarth calling FDL. If the single Senator most closely aligned with the views generally held around here says that impeachment is a no-go, it’s a no go, and we need to find more constructive ways of venting.
Look, I am as much in favor of impeachment as any of you, but it’s simply not going to happen given the current makeup of Congress.
Unlike during Watergate, there are no principled Republicans in the Senate. None. And then there’s the small matter of that slime mold from CT. So where are the votes going to come from?
Hola Lakers,
Sorry to interrupt, but today it feels like we’re having a DIRECT conversation w/ our elected officials — almost in real time (give or take a day). I’m almost afraid to get excited, but it does feel like there’s a bit of hope. Today at least.
Loo Hoo. @ 54
That is an America worth fighting for…
Feingold on Clinton Impeachment
http://findarticles.com/p/arti….._n10498333
I thought I had read that Feingold had voted to Impeach Clinton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Feingold
Tross @ 59
Makes you feel a little special, doesn’t it? I think I like the feeling !
allan_in_upstate @ 58
Thank you, Allan! I was flogged for defending Russ in an earlier thread! I’m all for impeachment too, I called and instigated calls to Pelosi for impeachment, yet, I defended Russ’s POV on DKos!!! 8-)
Twain @ 62
Yup!
Even if we don’t win (and I think we could), at least I know we’ve been heard. When next I vote, at least I won’t feel guilt about voting out any incumbents who didn’t stand up for this.
Statement by Feingold on articles of Impeachment in regard to Clinton
http://australianpolitics.com/…..gold.shtml
allan_in_upstate @ 59
Ian Walsh had an excellent post on how to diffuse Bush by floor filibusters on small votes and letting the pubs stay up all night defending them.. Jim Webb’s bill would have been an excellent example of this imo. Gonzales could be impeached and then go after the bigger fry.
allan_in_upstate @ 58
This is not a case wherein you have to have the vote count before beginning. The only way the evidence of the evildoing of this administration is going to come out is if the congress seriously challenges them and the only way to do so is through impeachment. It is the only way they will get the evidence and expose it. Yes, it will take time and probably run out the clock, but the more that comes out, the sorrier the repigs will look and come election time how many of them will want to side with the crooks and liars in the WH?
They didn’t know that they had the votes in 1972 either. Nixon spared them the vote. W. may run out the clock but so what. We have far less to lose than to gain. If the dems don’t start standing up to the crooks they will look just as bad as the crooks.
allan_in_upstate @ 58
Yeah, just let him continue to fester and the bozos that hitch their wagon to him can circle the drain too. Like McCain ; )
TexB @ 29
How did it go today for you? I was thinking of you…
conniptionfit @ 10
Nice blog! I had completely forgotten you were a Tancredo constituent. My heartiest sympathy — but you’ve got a great blog there!
Valley Girl @ 51
So true.
Now that the House appears to have rediscovered its power to try people for contempt, is there anything to prevent it from subpeona’ing Abu, Rove and Cheney and, when they don’t appear, arrest ‘em?… as I understand it, inherent contempt is not litigatible in the courts and it’s even debateable whether or not a presidential pardon cures it.
ccmask @ 69
Thank you. Injections went well. Pain has been on and off, and I’ve had two naps. Feeling a bit foggy, but OK. Need to go back and let them inject the spine again in 2 weeks. Fun, fun fun!
LS @ 14
Dan Abrams is going the wrong direction, having Tucker as a guest on “his” program. It’s a mistake, and I bet it’s aimed directly at the MediaMatters action that started yesterday about Tucker.
Tucker needs to take the Peter Baker Pledge: “MY number’s not on her list.”
Tonights demand for a simple majority vote, or its an all nighter for congress is a good first step. Perhaps the small voice thats being heard on the hill is collectively ours, saying “do some thing or else” in the ears of those you represent us (at lest for now).
Cheney pushes Bush on Iran
http://www.guardian.co.uk/fron…..43,00.html
“The red line is not in Iran. The red line is in Israel. If Israel is adamant it will attack, the US will have to take decisive action,” Mr Cronin said. “The choices are: tell Israel no, let Israel do the job, or do the job yourself.”
TELL ISRAEL NO!
Hey, everyone!
Sorry I’m late — was on the phone with my mom. (Hi, Mom!)
kathleen @ 65
Money Quote:
“I do not have time to discuss the perjury count this afternoon, but will do so in a longer presentation for the Record. Suffice it to say I do not believe the managers have met their burden of proving perjury beyond a reasonable doubt.
As to obstruction of justice, the President did come perilously close. Three quick observations make me conclude that, in fact, he did not commit obstruction of justice beyond a reasonable doubt.”
TexB: I like the nap part. Hope you feel less pain soon.
This post is going to go very nicely with tonight’s Late Nite, which I just put in the queue. Phoenix Woman, are you reading my mind again?
RevDeb @ 66
I would like someone to name a single Republican who could be persuaded to vote to convict either Bush or Cheney.
I needn’t remind anybody here that Joementum is a dead-ender.
So we’re talking about (at least) 17 Republicans. Names, anyone?
I agree that a good test case is Abu. If he can’t be impeached, no one can.
TexB @ 73
God Bless, Ma’am!!!
Feingold’s money quote:
“What would we be telling Americans–and those worldwide who see in America what they can only hope for in their own countries–if the Senate of the United States were to conclude: The President lied under oath as an element of a scheme to obstruct the due process of law, but we chose to look the other way?”
Digest that. Burp!
allan_in_upstate @ 81
If the repigs don’t get with the program after the evidence is clearly laid out then let them go down with the Titanic.
There probably isn’t time to get through the entire process but there is plenty of time to expose them for who they are. That could be enough for the 2008 election cycle as long as we aren’t facing martial law,
ccmask @ 79
Oh, this is fine. With the old kind of sedation I was dealing with nausea and pain after injections. I’d much rather have less of that and more naps.
kathleen @ 76
I think we should consider amending our view that Cheney is the primary advocate of Iranian armageddon in this administration. Shrub’s comments over the last few days on this subject suggest that he’s at least as belligerent on Iran as the VP is…. Cheney may be better at the operational mechanics of being evil, but I don’t think that makes him any more evil :)
Lots of pressure to quash A*P*C Rosen espionage trial.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11295
kathleen @ 61
argosfalcon @ 75
Unfortunately, the Senate punted the ball! Wednesday is the new cloture vote day!
Well now thats (insert the sound of air escaping a balloon) disappointing.
LS @ 84
Makes me want to reread the Constitution again.
CTuttle @ 89
Are they not doing the all nighter? See what you miss when you nap?
allan_in_upstate @ 58
That’s true if the Senate vote was today. But 22 of those GOP Senators are up in 2008. If the storm continues to get more perfect — and investigations, impeachment proceedings, hearings, and a House impeachment trial can only make the current storm more perfect — who can really predict how those GOP Senators will vote, given what we may all learn between now and then?
Of course impeachment and removal can’t occur tomorrow. But — impeachment needs to start tomorrow.
What?? Did they forget their blankies…
It’s so true. How can Bush claim he’s trying to bring democracy to Iraq while he is squashing democracy over here, for all the world to see. He had to take our democracy away in order to bring it over there. Egads!(I saw Life with Father the other night–I love the part of the movie with the pug dog))
The former chief of CIA’s OBL task force is saying that Shrub is doing nothing to address the true Terror threat! Duhhh….!!!
For all you rule freaks, take a look at Senate Rule XXII. This is great stuff. After 30 hours of debate, the Senate proceeds directly to vote on the measure, except maybe for any pending amendments. The amendment part isn’t clear, but it looks like we vote on them first, then the bill. Each senator can speak no more than 1 hour, so we have to get at least 31 senators to speak on schedule so we cover the 30 hours. Then we Vote.
Eat that, Mitch!
allan_in_upstate @ 58
Oh, I have no problem with impeachment, so long as people don’t freak out if/when it fails to remove Cheney or Bush.
As you say, there’s no way in hell that any Republican Senator will vote to remove Cheney or Bush, because those Republicans who were principled enough to consider doing so with Nixon (he resigned before it could come to a vote) were promptly purged from the party over the next decade and a half. Among the last to go was Lowell Weicker in 1988 — and he was taken out only when the Republicans interfered in the Democratic primary to ensure that a relatively conservative Democrat, one they could feel comfy backing, won. That Democrat was Joe Lieberman.
However, impeachment as a tool — as a way to highlight the differences between the Democrats and Republicans (much as the Republican use of the filibuster to block popular and needed legislation highlights the differences between Democrats and Republicans) — can be a very useful thing indeed.
Look at two of the most powerful existing progressive political structures you see: Democracy for America and MoveOn.org. The original causes they were formed to advance — Howard Dean’s presidential candidacy, and stopping the Clinton impeachment madness in favor of a simple censure (the group’s original name was “Censure And Move On”) — were failures. But the organizations didn’t go away, and their not going away helped lay the groundwork for the progressive revival we’re seeing today.
CTuttle @ 96
I thought they said they got rid of the OBL taskforce….
Impeach.
kathleen @ 87
If possible, we need to be all over this, and throw in Bandar Bush while we’re at it please!!
ccmask @ 95
By redefining the word “democracy” to whatever the heck he wants.. the right to believe and to be made to believe whatever the neocons/theocons do :).. China’s constitution says it is a democracy.. so, I believe, does North Korea’s.
LS @ 99
You didn’t notice the ‘Former Chief’ part???
I live in a state with two Republican senators.
I don’t see either of them voting to impeach.
But I want them on record defending and condoning all of Bush’s and Cheney’s crimes.
Especially since one of them is up for re-election in 2008.
Impeach.
Well lets see Wednesday movies or c-span, hmm.
RevDeb @ 84
You are so right on. This has been my thought since last Nov. Considering how much knowledge has been gained from the various hearings so far, imagine how much we’d know by now that would probably make impeachment undeniable.
Guess we’ll never know with these pansies running “our” Party.
argosfalcon @ 104
C-span! Pass the popcorn! Unless, they start reading the DC Yellow Pages into the record!!! Ugh!!! ;-)
A billy goat gave the Chicago Cubs years and years of bad luck. A pet goat gave a president years and years of bad luck.
Maybe the DC Madam will lend them her 40 pounds of phone records to read.
I insist, once the preceedings begin the public will demand impeachment
and if a senator wishes to stay in office he will vote to impeach
that’s IF it even needs to go that far, the democrats can and must deal right now, they can begin to swell the tide
For gawd’s sake. O’Really taking on Kos:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/
CTuttle @ 102
Right. I didn’t.
ccmask @ 107
The Cubs are currently on a winning streak. Don’t know how long that will last, but one must drink in moments of glory when they present themselves.
ccmask @ 107
707!!! However, let’s not denigrate half of Shrub’s Prez Library’s content!!! :P
RevDeb @ 112
And it was a beautiful comeback tonight *g*
neurophius @ 103
Half the country wants impeachment started now for both Bush (45%) and Cheney (54%). Can you imagine what the chorus to impeach will be after investigations, hearings, and a trial in the House? The GOP Senators will be deafened by the roar — and those up for re-election will be most deaf.
Rats. I misread the rule. I’ll try again.
janda @ 114
Yesterday’s was even better!
Well I guess c-span. A table for one I think I’ll start with quite outrage at the hijackers of my government and a nice white wine.
Re Impeachment:
Venturing to guess that most here think these are drastic times in America. Thus, drastic times call for drastic measures.
To those that worry how Dems will be “branded” if impeachment fails: Haven’t you been paying attention? No matter what Dems do, the Repukes and the Conglomerate Media tell stories that make Dems look bad…guaranteed. You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t, so F-ing go for it!
Damn. Don’t tell me we’re gonna go all out and have some dramatic filibuster extravaganza thingy…and then nothing happens…till Wednesday…we could be in Iran by then…Oh, well…How does one spell the sound of “scream” again?
Loo Hoo. @ 110
Hilarious. O’Reilly is really running scared, now.
RevDeb @ 117
Indeed!
TRex @ 121
I’m waiting for him to spontaneously combust.
I love the Cubs!!! It’s a sign!!!
State Proclamation Calling For Impeachment
When pushing for impeachment, save time: Get your friends to focus on a state, not just DC. Other option: work with your state officials to pass an impeachment proclamation.
Even if the Senate refuses to convict, the impeached President/VP cannot be pardoned like Nixon was.
perris @ 11
I’m with you 100% this far.
This suggests that you agree with what they “know”. I don’t. Matter of fact, I’m not even sure that they “think” that the SCOTUS will rule on their behalf. This is because every time the courts have actually considered the merit of their unitary executive over-reach, the courts have ruled *against* them. For example, in instructing Harriet Miers not to comply with the subpoena, instead of contesting the subpoena in court (which would have been the “by-the-book” response), they simply issued a decision that Harriet Miers chose to obey, because she always obeys Bush-Rove. As has been noted elsewhere, that leaves Harriet in an awkward place, because she is vulnerable to Contempt of Congress with no conventional legal support.
I don’t think this scenario will work.
First,
…”we therefore allow no supreme court decision, you comply or you are impeached”
You can’t do that. They would not comply. They are itching for an impeachment fight, so that is what the House would have to be willing to do. But there is another possibility that you are not considering: They might at this point choose to challenge Congress in court. You say that the House should then immediately impeach. But voting to impeach quickly would be bad, because the public will not see the summary of evidence in support of impeachment. We would have to trust the MSM to do that job for us, and do you really want to rely on them? Then it would become a toss-up between which would happen first, a court ruling on the Administration’s challenge of having to “comply” with whatever it is that you think they should comply with, or the House voting at least one article of impeachment.
Incidentally, you haven’t really made clear what it is that the administration would have to do to “comply”. That’s a very important omission. Please clarify.
Second, this won’t work, either:
“we will vote impeachment and we will rest in the senate without even presenting a case where you will be impeached in a summary judgement immediately”
This would be a mistake. You can’t just rest in the Senate without presenting a case. The House has to approve at least one Article of Impeachment. When it is presented in the Senate, the Majority Leader, IIRC, has to present the case. If the case is merely submitted summarily, as you suggest, that would make it easy for Republicans to vote against the summary charge, which would likely result in voting down the Article(s) of impeachment.
Furthermore, I think we NEED the debate, in order to highlight once again the evidence supporting the impeachment. That will help to solidify support for it.
Bob in
HIWIallan_in_upstate @ 58
I know how the term “impeachment” is so often used, but it’s very important to remember what it actually is: an indictment. The fact that one doesn’t expect to have a jury willing to convict is, in itself, not a reason not to indict and hold the trial anyway.
Earlier today and several threads back I posted the following, which I’ll repeat (just this once, though, at the risk of being annoying):
It is of the utmost importance that what this administration has done and continues to do, together with it’s co-conspirators in Congress, be called out for what it is, in a process that makes it absolutely clear why it must be stopped. Let those in the Senate for whom these things are not a problem go on record, in effect, approving the dismantling of the American Republic.
The morning after the 2004 election I awoke and wondered i this was what it had felt like in the last days of the Roman Republic. Maybe they didn’t have a choice, but we still do.
Anna Eshoo (quoted by Citizen Spot @ 28), may want to spare the country the pain of an impeachment. I can understand that, but I also say what’s at stake is way more than worth the price.
TRex @ 121
BTW, what’s with O’Reilly’s “Talking Points Memo” crap?
Doesn’t TPM have trademark or copyright on that name?
Loo Hoo. @ 110
Leave a note on the JetBlue compliment page. I’m sure they’re getting bombarded by the wingnuts.
bobschacht @ 126
!!!
The Republicans ain’t got none o this: Mr. Smith Goes to Washington
bonkers @ 119
Agree with that completely.
Here’s an explanation that makes sense. It looks like there will need to be an actual filibuster.
Dear Congressman ___________
The president and vice president of the current administration have created a presidency that operates outside the law and without accountability to the Constitution, to Congress or to the American people.
The biggest issue facing the American people is not the war in Iraq, the election in’08, universal healthcare, the cost of gasoline, or election finance. The biggest issue facing the American people is the imperial presidency because it undermines our government, our future, and our freedom.
This imperial presidency will exist with all its power and secrecy, which is not authorized by the Constitution or the laws of this land but is in direction opposition to it, until the extra-constitutional power this imperial presidency has amassed is removed by official action. If not addressed, the next president can and will claim the same power.
Impeachment is not a constitutional crises rather impeachment is the remedy for it.
You have taken an oath of loyalty to uphold the Constitution. Now is the time to act on it. Consequences and public rebuke but not necessarily punishment are the remedy to restore the balance of power the founder’s struck when they formed our government. The combative nature of the president and vice president notwithstanding, they must be given the opportunity to recant, acknowledge error and undertake all necessary remedies to restore our government to one in harmony with the constitution and the laws of our land not a government in opposition to it.
Whether or not there are votes in the House and Senate to impeach and vote in favor of the articles of impeachment the process, diligently pursued, will yield the necessary result. I’m quite certain the people of (YOURSTATE) you in this effort, not punish you at the polls in the next election cycle. However, the calculus involved in your decision to be proactive on this issue rests on your oath of office only. Your oath is sufficient and necessary incentive to pursue this issue with all deliberate commitment.
The occasions of this president and vice president acting beyond their authority and outside the law are numerous and well documented. They include monitoring citizens’ phone calls and email without a warrant; abducting foreign suspects and interning them in secret prisons; abducting Canadian citizens on US soil and detaining them without habeas corpus; the CIAs extraordinary rendition program, torturing enemy combatants in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, proffering fraudulent pre-war intelligence to Congress and the American people, leaking a covert CIA agent’s identity to the press and covering-up the crime by lying, obstructing justice and a suspicious use of the president clemency powers with a pre-mature commutation of the convicted felons jail sentence.
Well… I’m watching “Weeds”. Even though I don’t smoke (anything) I love the intellectual level of this show. Plus it gives me huge laughs. After the show I go to the Aunty’s for the night and will, as usual, take her the “Daily Oklahoman”, our main (conservative) newspaper. The Aunty always chides me for bringing “That Republican rag” into her house. And she asks the same question everynight: “why do you buy that paper kiddo”? And tell her, ‘because they always print my letters’. And besides I’m the in-house token Democrat. And she says bah! And then I say I like to know what the opposition is up to. And then she says, that’s pretty good kiddo! And proceeds to read the paper and harangue Bush and the rest. All is well. ;0)
THHHHUUUUUUU YANKEES WIN!
Good evening fellow pups.
TRex @ 121
Guest: It’s an open forum and you get lunatics…
BillO: An open forum is bull
Pretty much says it all ; )
wangdangdoodle @ 129
Never mind, that didn’t work out. It’s not a general compliment thing, you have to leave your flight confirmation number.
D’oh!
Listening to what the D senators were saying on the floor today was beyond pathetic.. They really believe so much false information it astounds me.. (As the Lieberman amendment pointed out last week.)
After all in articles yesterday and KO this evening we know the US has 135 foreign AL Q insurgents in prison in Iraq..out of a total of 19,000 prisoners.. The emotional reaction to this story seems to be focused on the fact half of 135 are Saudi when it’s the fact there are only 135! We aren’t really attracting outside forces in any significant number at all… The Iraqis want us out.
Why is the conversation on the D side about insurgents or Al Q in Iraq when it is at best miniscule in reality?
Why aren’t Dems saying we were lied into this for oil theft and it was wrong and failed miserably. Bring them home now!
Dems are ill informed and very afraid, they speak almost exactly like Republicans in describing the “enemy” or “mission”.. which is all the more reason we who get it have to do what we did today, over and over again.
If they believe so many bits of incorrect data how can they be expected to ask the right questions or hold others accountable for lies almost all senators are clinging to?
It’s not going to be easy or quick, but it must be demanded until the truth breaks through. I just see our mission remains in the fact checking arena.
Maybe we need to list the false points our side makes and send them polite corrections until they repeat them.
*sigh*
ccmask @ 107
My god, I hope its not *that* bad.
(only half-joking)
Mukai, hope you wrote that in Feingold’s post as Kos. Brilliant.
mack @ 140
If it means that the GOP can’t win the presidency for as long as the Cubs haven’t made it to the world series, I hope the curse is every bit as strong *g*
and what if this is another setup bill for the fall? no requirements for any amount of troops to leave.
what is this farce? the perfect foil for bush to look nice by agreeing? then do nothing?
what are you all thinking? this bill has nothing of benefit to someone or something that doesn’t care about law and signs this and ignores that. what it signs is the autograph, what it ignores is the law
you are grasping at straws and it is sad. this is like saying one of bush’s us attorneys is an honorable person. more honorable than bush? easily done. but more honest than a real person, that’s funny. not one of them blew any whistles when they were asked to make political attacks. they got mad cause someone said something bad about their job and might affect future employment. These are the people that prosecute crimes? their hair is more important to them than the truth?
It is hard to believe this site would propound a bill that does nothing, and if he chooses, can make king george look good?
ARE YOU FREAKING MAD?
TRex @ 121
Notice that he doesn’t dare talk about Olbermann any more? O’Reilly still has the “Get off my lawn!” demographic, but the much more desirable educated-and/or-employed demo is all watching KO.
O’Rielly is only doing it for the attention. He firgures if he spats with them his numbers will go up because of how many hits dailykos gets a day. What proves this is that he didn’t go after a racist & righty website, like __________ (take your pick)
oldtree @ 143
Which bill are you talking about? Certainly not the one the Republicans plan to filibuster.
The point is that the Republicans have already shown that they will filibuster anything Bush doesn’t like that has the word “Iraq” in it, just as they will filibuster anything with the word “impeachment” in it (unless of course they can use it to re-impeach Clinton).
If they’re going to be obstructionists, then we’re going to give them a diet of legislation the public wants and needs to obstructionist about.
Phoenix Woman @ 146
This is what is key. The public mood is blowing our way, and the GOP can really put more nails in its coffin if they obstruct bills the public likes.
wangdangdoodle @ 129
Well, here’s what I tried to send, but you need flight numbers, etc.
I applaud you for not backing down to Bill “O’Really”. You should buy a booth at Yearly Kos. EVERYONE there will support you! Let United have the shrinking right, and you take on the growing left. Congratulations!
oldtree @ 143
I think many of us were encouraging a filibuster for something, anything, over and over until the Dems get a spine.
If we wait until the Dems bring forth a decent exit bill, we might be waiting a long time.
Somehow we have to find the magic snap of the finger that will wake them up.
Eureka Springs @ 139
A positive out of this time in history is that we’re getting a painful lesson at how harmful the myth of the “Centrist Democrat” has been to our country over the last 30 years or so. There are so many Ellen Tauschers and Ben Nelsons in Congress that it’s difficult to get anything meaningful accomplished. Makes you wonder if some of the “centrists” are there specifically to thwart true DemocratIC reform, in favor of mega-corporaate interests.
All the more reason Hillary Clinton needs to lose the primary otherwise, it’ll only get worse.
O’Reilley calls for boycott of Jet Blue. This is fascism per se. I have been very reticent to call for a boycott of O’R sponsors, but this is as good a reason as any to reconsider my position.
Eureka Springs @ 139
IMHO, the Dems are regurgitating Dubya’s WOT line, b/c it is easier and simpler than telling the truth. Telling the truth would require that they backtrack six years. The Media (solidly right wing) will make mince meat out of them if they tell the truth.
The Dems feel that they can carry the water a little longer and win by default with low risk (and effort). If they stick their necks out, they will be marginalized or ostrasized like Dennis Kucinich (the best peoples’ candidate with nary a snowball’s chance in hell of winning the nomination).
So, they prefer to lie and not impeach.
Pop Quiz!
The sitting US Senators (Democrats) running for ‘08 are:
1. Biden
2. Clinton
3. Dodd
4. Kucinich
5. Obama
Did I miss anyone?
hackworth @ 152
More cowbell!
Less triangle…(sigh)
Big Mitch @ 151
I can’t bear to watch him, even under the pretext of knowing one’s enemy. Who sponsors him?
TRex @ 153
Kucinich is not in the Senate
Oops. Kucinich is House of Reps, isn’t he?
TRex @ 153
Kucinich is a Rep, not a Senator
To help bring this war to an end, we need to find a way to bring images of the pain and suffering of the Iraqi refugees on the border with Iraq, Syria and Jordan into the living rooms of Americans. This is story that has been hidden away from Americans. Some of these people are said to be living in tents in 100 degree heat without running water and food while most Americans are sitting down in air conditioned offices and homes.
johnSwifty @ 155
I don’t know for the same reason.
GeorgeSimian @ 25
Actually, in 1998, impeachment DID harm the Republicans; they thought they were going to win 60-odd seats in the House and a dozen-odd in the Senate. Instead, they LOST five House seats and held steady in the Senate (they took out Carol Moseley-Braun, but we took out Al D’Amato, one of the leaders of the get-Clinton movement). Everyone thought that the Republicans would listen to the voters’ message. Instead, they went ahead with impeachment.
The main purpose impeachment would serve right now is to force the Republicans to choose between Bush/their nutzoid base and the rest of America. Almost all the sane people have left the GOP, leaving the core racist God-Guts-Guns/Don’t You Dare Tax Rich White People base.
The Republican pols are all too aware of Bush’s abysmal poll numbers. But they are also aware of what happened to the Rockefeller Republican moderates that backed impeaching Nixon (namely, they were purged from the party by the conservative nutcases). So while they’d like to subtly distance themselves from Bush, they don’t want to do anything that arouses the wrath of the lizard-brain base. Pushing impeachment, just like forcing them to choose between filibustering good legislation or opposing Bush/the base, will serve to highlight to the rest of America that these guys may pretend to be “mavericks”, but that they will vote the way Bush orders them to vote, again and again and again.
o”Reilley is coming on in four minutes here. I will force myself to find out.
TRex @ 153
Kucinich serves in the House, not the Senate.
TRex @ 153
Kucinich isn’t a Senator, he is a Romulan.
bonkers @ 150
Yeah and Bush is the only person in the history of the planet who would pay 1/2 a trillion dollars to steal oil. I’m telling you, it’s the curse of the pet goat.
Loo Hoo. @ 148
Sorry about that Loo, I did post a retraction a little further down from that.
But, there are phone numbers posted on the right hand side of that page. So I think I’ll give them a call in the morning.
TRex @ 153
Kucinich is House but the others are correct
Plus McCain and Brownback from Senate on R side and Tancredo from House
johnSwifty @ 155
The silver lining for me is that BillO is doing some teeriffic publicity for them. Some folks (like myself) have trouble figuring out where the online party is…thanks Billy! (waves)
Big Mitch @ 151
Remember the Dixie Chicks? Could be the best thing for Jet Blue.
Big Mitch @ 162
Fair well, brave soul. We will remember you to future FDLers….Every mornin at the Lake, you could see him arive; stood six foot five, weighed 245…
154
bonkers says:
More cowbell!
Less triangle…(sigh)
SNL skit, Don’t Fear The Reaper, with Christopher Walken – who is also running for President. I wish he could get the nomination.
That was a classic. More cowbell!
allan_in_upstate @ 81
It took about 3 months from the time impeachment hearings commenced to the day Nixon resigned. Before the hearings started, a majority of Americans where against impeachment. By the time he resigned, the majority were for impeachment, at 72%
do-si-do @ 168
oops, i meant that for daily/yearlyKOS and anybody he doesn’t like in general.
Big Mitch @ 162
You’re a brave person!
Watch the video at C&L. Don’t give O’Liely the business!
janda @ 147
Yup. Even worse for them: They’re torn between their base (which backs Bush simply because it pisses off sane people, and which doesn’t like people who try to distance themselves from Bush) and the general voting public. They can please one or the other, but not both. They’re hoping to slide along and not draw unwanted attention to their voting records, and repeatedly voting to sustain a filibuster of a bring-the-troops-home bill is not what they want to be doing for the next fifteen months.
hackworth @ 171
I have a fevah and the prescription is MORE COWBELL! and impeachment!
Be a good time for an abortion bill.
I don’t mind Pelosi et. al. being led by the public to impeachment.
That insulates them from the Rep talking point that tries to turn the rigged abuse of impeachment power exercised during the Clinton years into a morally equivalent act, when impeachment responds to the unprecedented abuse of executive power by Bush.
Pelosi and Reid can lay the groundwork for impeachment with hearings and investigations and subpoenas and enforcments of subpoenas, all designed to bring the abuses of the Bush adminstration into the public light.
Along the way, we may find the “smoking gun”–the piece of evidence that leads to Cheney’s or Bush’s resignation.
In fact, given how hard they try to cover up everything, I am almost certain that the smoking gun is out there waiting to be discovered.
TRex @ 153
This is one of my major reasons for backing Edwards: He’s already out of the Senate, so we won’t lose his Senate seat if he wins (we will lose that of whoever is his running mate, assuming he goes with Clinton or Obama or Dodd).
News Hounds
We watch FOX so you don’t have to
Contact the advertisers on The O’Reilly Factor
http://www.newshounds.us/2007/…..mments.php
janda @ 174
You will need to prepare some brain bleach now before the shoe. It is amazing that a million people can listen to Billo and absorb and repeat his nonsensical ranting.
Neil @ 134
nice letter, really good template, well turned out, civil yet firm. top shelf. I’ll personalize a bit and send out on nice stationary.
eureka springs and oldtree, good points.
there is a strong psychological urge to believe that somewhere up on Mt Olympus, inside the Beltway, at least some of the Gods will heed the delicious sacrificial offerings we have left at their temple(s) – the phone calls, the small personal cash donations, the volunteering on phone-banks, even just the earnest calls to do the right thing down in the blogosphere.
no one wants to beleive the great ones don’t give a f*ck.
but if they can’t produce anything before ritualized tithe/guilt-trip season in Nov 08 they get nothing..
EPU’d from prev thread…
MLK quote cited by Arthur Silbur at http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
fewer and fewer defenders of the first two categories here, and 1400 comments at the Orange Borg!
their rationales are crumbling, soon we will see whether the (D) party really wants to restore this country to a functional Constitutional Republic, or whether they are bought off by a few peices of silver and threats of blackmail, or or too far under the sway of the wishes of the government of a country other than the USA.
Pelosi could be acclaimed through history for doing the right thing, and get to be the first female President, even a few months ahead of the dreadful harridan Hillary Clinton, or she will be a footnote for scholars studying the demise of the US of A, the obscure answer to the question “was there anyone who could have stopped Bush/Cheney before the use of nuclear weapons against the people of Iran?”
see also http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts07162007.html
for an added note of urgency.
while Harry Reid’s parlaimentary pawn gambit is a laudable gesture, Cheny might just be about to release some giant uruk hai he has been brewing down in the sub-basement, and then these feints signifying boldness and defiance will be rather insufficient.
Phoenix Woman @ 176
I hope those goopers just get their hides nailed to the wall in 2008. Full ads and videos like the one CHS posted earlier (awesome by the way) with the gooper’s words and voting record side by side with visuals of the consequences of their actions. Scorched earth.
Phoenix Woman @ 180
clinton and Obama have D govs to appoint replacements (after the election – no need to resign prior) Only dodd would have an R replacing him…
New Thread!
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…../#comments
dakine01 @ 185
And of course any of those might head the fourth branch of government, ;)
Sponsors start leaving O’Reilly Factor
“Thank you for taking the time to share with us your concerns regarding our recent advertising on the FOX network. We appreciate your feedback and want you to know that we take your comments quite seriously.
Effective January 25, we have pulled Lowe’s advertising from the O’Reilly Factor program.
Please accept this letter as a sincere apology from Lowe’s and reassurance of Lowe’s commitment to you, our valued customer. If Lowe’s can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to write or call us. We encourage you to continue to share your comments and feedback, whenever you think it would be appropriate.”
http://rg.bravenewfilms.org/bl…..lly-factor
In a parallel universe, a pundit like Billo, is ranting and raving, drool running down his chin, spewing indecipherable jibberish…Oh wait…
ccmask @ 169
So what’s his issue with Jet Blue?
Achhhh, the things I do for my fellow-pups. I have watched the first 14 minutes of the O’Reilly Factor just so that I can share with you that the first four sponsor on his show was … Olay Total Effects, Applebee’s, Ford, and Capitalone.
Now I need to take a bath.
Big Mitch @ 191
You could watch with the sound off, if that makes it easier. It’s the only way I can listen to Bush.
hackworth @ 189
Oh it’s funny to say and it seems so obvious, overt and ludicrous to those of us who think for ourselves. Don’t you find yourself imploring people, “Didn’t you read 1984, at least see the incomplete movie if only because it was the last thing Richard Burton ever did???!!!! Can’t you recognize the ‘10 minute hate’ in everything FOX news does, for godssake???!!! You don’t even have to be liberal in your way of thinking, but isn’t it freakin obvious in its shallow attempt at mind control????!!!!”
But, the sad truth, I think, is that some people truly do have shallow minds and that pablum fills a void, somehow.
I saw a recent movie, “V”, where another prime example of media exploitation was a not so veiled example of O’Reilly and Fox news in a sort of surreal, Goebbels Nazi propaganda projection. Maybe it’s just me, but it seems so obvious.
Big Mitch @ 191
The sad fact is advertisers don’t give a sh*t about the venue. It’s all about getting their message to you. The “show” is just a vehicle. For the most part they couldn’t care less. And that goes for Jet Blue also.
Big Mitch @ 191
Well, the good news is that those will all be easy to boycott! Thanks man.
“Currently, they are very angry that good legislation isn’t being passed, but when the Democrats cave at the prospect of a Republican filibuster, it is the Democrats — not the Republicans — that get blamed for not passing the legislation.”
Phoenix Woman, that is exactly the point. Excellent post!
I don’t know what the Dems are afraid of. So many people made fun of Mike Gravel for saying “let them filibuster” months ago. The confusion people are seeing is exactly the point that they cave! They need to DO something. That something is to let them filibuster! They should have been letting pubs show themselves out for awhile now.
I’ve called Pelosi and agree it is time for impeachment. Its to the point that to not do it, becomes the crime. I’ll be trying Reid tomorrow and until I see them DO something.
I read somewhere that back in April, Ron Paul filed articles of impeachment for cheney in a house resolution. I’ve never seen anything else about it though. Might this already be in the works just waiting for Nancy to wake up and smell the coffee?
In other words, the democrats have to get down and dirty in the trenches. Play the R’s game. I like what Webb did on Timmeh’s show.
Keep on getting on. And don’t listen to Clinton and Obama! They don’t want impeachment because they don’t want to get impeached themselves in the future!
Another Al Qaeda threat posted with the AP, with absolutely no news on the where and when, in case people want to protect themselves, you know.
Bruce Fien more than two weeks ago called for Cheney’s impeachment. Bruce Fien! C’mon, let’s make it happen.
Myrtle June @ 196
Ron Paul scares the piss out of me. The only thing worse than neo-conservatism would be a backlash to hyper, self-righteous, libertarian conservatism with backing from moderates merely by standing in opposition to the insanity of the neo-conservative platform. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Conservatism has had its time since 1980 and the eight year Clinton hiatus was hardly much of a swing in the other direction. It is time for a some good old liberal, tree hugging, patchouli stinking policies of fellowship and general acceptance and feed the poor and cloth the babies and march in the streets…and, and just get people to start to give a damn about real things again. Now is NOT the time to fall back into that crappy, libertarian sense of self preservation over that of society. It’s time to pay a little attention to society and bring a little love back into the deal.
RevDeb @ 35
Exactly! I am composing my reply to her right now. I am so disappointed in her position on this. But then again, she is tight with Nancy Pelosi, so it will be hard to persuade her to defend the constitution, rather than the party. But I just watched the Bill Moyer’s Impeachment episode, and I have some good points to make in my reply to her email.
PW @ 161 (aside)
Repubs v. Clinton in 1998 gave them a bad name for misuse of impeachment because of lame premise for indictment.
They were stupid to impeach.
Dems would be stupid not to.
zsheesh. look at the time. Where’s Evil Parallel Universe when you need him/her/it – whatever?
ejd
(btw, love your work)
johnSwifty @ 198
OMG…. where did I say I was for Ron Paul?!?!?!? Please tell me, so I can never ever ever ever even come close to that again! :D
Seriously, JohnSwifty…..I’m a Democrat, I’ve always been a Democrat. I’m a Liberal. I’m a progressive… apparently since they moved the just left of center way the hell over in the left field. Ron Paul serves a purpose for me though. If he’s already filed articles of impeachment, and he said he had, then how’s that backing him for some leader? Likewise, he served a huge purpose for standing up and telling the truth about the Bush/Cheney War in the pubbie “debates”. Someone has to say these things out loud on national teevee, too bad its Ron Paul and Mike Gravel. Neither are electable. I might vote for Gravel before Hillary though, but never Ron Paul… ever.
Relax, JohnSwifty I’m in the blue boat demanding better from Blue “representatives”. Here’s what “scares the piss out of me”…. Neocons dressed up like Democrats. Yes, even more than Ron Paul :D
Now let’s indict Cheney and impeach them both tomorrow! Its been waaaay toooo long. :-)
Cozumel @ 188
Well, that’s wonderful!!! Thanks for this info… I’ll pass it along!
test for return of “f” thingie