The Boston Globe’s Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, Charlie Savage, has a must-read article today in which he reminds us of a fundamental truth about the history of Congressional efforts to end wars: while there have been many examples of Congress voting to end authorizations and/or to cut off funding for ill-conceived military adventures, such efforts, even when nominally endorsed by the President, almost invariably failed when the Presidency is held by pro-war Republicans willing to ignore the law.
Savage recites example after example of such efforts, some successful, others disastrously not, but in the failed examples, Congressional efforts failed because a right-wing Republican President with unconstitutionally expansive views of executive power refused to accept Congress’ authority to tell the President what to do. Thus, even when Congress repealed the Tonkin Gulf resolution and prohibited Nixon from using US forces in Cambodia, the President refused to obey the law:
War opponents’ hopes were dashed. Despite signing the bills, President Nixon said he had independent authority as commander in chief to keep combat in Vietnam going. For the next two years, Congress failed to agree on further restrictions, and nearly 3,000 more American soldiers died. Nixon finally ended the war on his own terms with a cease – fire agreement in January 1973.
Savage notes that successful Congressional efforts at ending military actions depended on genuine Presidential concurrence:
There is ample historical precedent for Congress imposing limits on what presidents can do with US troops in the midst of a war, specialists say. But in all previous such cases, Congress was working with a president who was willing to sign its bills into law, usually as a negotiated compromise.
In Vietnam, for example, Congress banned ground combat troops from Laos and Thailand in 1969, and from Cambodia in 1970. And in July 1973, when the combat in Vietnam was over anyway, lawmakers cut off funds for further military action in Indochina — a gesture that prevented the United States from restarting the war after the North Vietnamese broke the cease-fire agreement in 1975.
But if a President opposed Congress on the issue, all of the arguments that Congress has no authority to tell a President what do to in matters of war surfaced. And Savage notes that we are seeing exactly those arguments today:
Prompted in part by Cheney, the Bush administration has championed an aggressive view of executive power under which Congress cannot restrict the commander in chief’s options, short of cutting off funds for the troops. This constitutional interpretation, which is disputed by many legal scholars, has surfaced repeatedly in recent months.
On May 1, when Bush vetoed the Iraq timetable bill, he told Congress that it was unconstitutional “because it purports to direct the conduct of the operations of the war in a way that infringes upon the powers vested in the presidency by the Constitution, including as commander in chief of the armed forces.”
Last Tuesday, Bush sent Congress a letter threatening to veto any defense bill that restricted his options not only for dealing with Iraq, but also with Iran. His letter asserted that the Constitution “exclusively” commits to him alone the power to decide how to use military or covert force in such national security situations.
And in a news conference Thursday, Bush repeated again his view that Congress can only decide whether to fund the war — but that all other decisions were for the commander in chief.
In that news conference, Bush also said he would not want to establish a precedent by agreeing to let Congress share in setting troop levels. If Bush refuses to obey laws restricting his conduct of the war, scholars said, it could take months for Congress and the courts to strike back — a process that might take too long to complete before he leaves office.
“If the executive branch is determined to push its powers to the brink of what they can get away with, the problem for the other branches is that any response they can make within a system of checks and balances takes time,” said Peter Shane , an Ohio State law professor.
Added Barron: “It’s a perfect storm for a constitutional crisis.”
Congressional Democrats are working to change our Iraq policies by persuading sufficient Republicans to join in imposing a different strategy on a recalcitrant President and Vice President. But as Glenn Greenwald rightly points out, what’s left of the Republican Party has so thorougly embraced this war and the mindset supporting it that it may be incapable of providing sufficient votes to rein in this Administration. This is their war, and their base won’t let them let go.
The importance of this history is that it suggests that Congressional efforts to end the Iraq occupation and/or redeploy US forces to other regions or into more “limited” missions, while politically worth pursuing, are highly likely to fail in actually changing policies, even if they eventually receive 60 Senate votes. What our history tells us is that if Congress truly wants to alter America’s policies in Iraq, a winning strategy probably requires removing the war’s zealous champions from the White House and encouraging the American people to relegate the Party of Aggressive War to 40 years in the political wilderness.
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Tillman.
FDL on fire
let’s stop the war…
Take it to the people.
Durbin is pushing back!
People have the power!
Sorry Scarecrow…Caw, CAW!
Lou Costello @ 1
Tillman
(EPU’d from previous thread)
Hi, Pups!
Great day. Congrats to all.
An idea to kick around: how about a daily or nightly “Feet to the Fire” frontpage/thread?
To make getting the word out to
Call Critter Whatstheirface about Issue Whatchamacallit
into a regular thing we all look for and add to our daily routines?
If the urgency of the issue has already been addressed extensively, just include links if time is limited. Include the excellent list of toll-free capitol switchboard numbers (thanks Katymine!)with two notes (from my experience and IMHO):
1) pick a number and just let it ring a lot–an operator will answer. Thus, redial can be a good friend.
2) be as nice as possible to those hardworking, probably underpaid and underappreciated women and men on that switchboard. Speak clearly, use a cheerful, friendly tone and lots of “Please” and “Thank you” no matter how impersonal or harassed or curt they sound when they answer (they’re just trying to keep the calls moving).
And one last little thing I’ve been doing–especially if I’m not a constituent (ie, if I call Reid’s or Pelosi’s office), I identify myself as “this is one of the American People.”
(/de-lurk).
Funnydiva
Real Filibusters!!
Durbin is starting to kick some ass. Good on him!
Durbin: The Senator from Kentucky is wrong to say that these Iraq votes need 60 votes to pass.
And he’s giving a very nice Civics lesson: “Since the Republicans want to filibuster, let’s have a real filibuster. It’s not a stunt. Military families spend sleepless nights, so it’s time for the Senate to spend a sleepless night, to sacrifice, an important symbol.”
((((((((Tillman Family))))))))))))
These Repubs are ignorami.
durbin is rocking cspan.
shoving mcconnell’s words down his throat
I think this might be teh speech of his life!
I can’t decide whether I want to have Fitzgerald’s babies — or Durbin’s.
LS @ 8
Tillman
I said this in response to Feingold’s Kos diary: the war cannot be stopped while Bush/Cheney are President. Want to stop the war, Senator Feingold? Remove Bush/Cheney.
Caw, CAW!
thanks Scarecrow!
Boston1775 @ 16
Tillman
do-si-do @ 17
Oh. Yeah. Awesome!
do-si-do @ 17
This is good stuff.
Great piece Scarecrow.
I M P E A C H ! ! !
My dog Jake tells me today keep them Rethug Senators sleeping
on the cots in the Senate cloakrooms for endless quorum calls and
flibusters, that way they can walk their talk and recify their
hypocritical life styles like the self-righteous Senator from La.
Jake likes Durbin today. He’s not sure if Reid can hold up for the
long run.
So… are you advocating impeachment?
JF @ 18
i’m too stupid to know if scarecrow is right and the way to end the occupation is to impeach… or if BTD is right and the way to end the occupation is the power of the purse.
but i do know that i’m pissed that congress is doing neither. i’m happy to get behind whichever method smarter people than me choose.
but for crying out loud… no action except kabuki is unacceptable.
How many of Saddam’s own people have we killed?
Durbin challenging the Authorization of Force in Iraq.
Yeah, Baby!!
But how the Hell can one get enough Chimp Juniors on the GOP Senate side to vote Guilty at an Impeachment earing?
Then let’s get the HELL on with impeachment!!! It was the only solution 2 years ago, it’s the only now, and it will be the only solution 4 months from now.
Impeach, convict, imprison.
Selise, I vote for doing both.
LoudounLib @ 22
Durbin is on fire! Boo-Yah!!!
IMPEACH NOW. it’s the right thing to do.
(and the American People want it this time.)
David @ 29
and restitution!
TILLMAN MURDER IS THE KEY TO THE FLOODGATES.THEY DISTROYED EVIDENCE,HIS DIARY WAS BURNED ON PURPOSE!!!!!!!!WHY????
selise @ 26
You are not too stupid! This is an incredibly tough spot Bush has put the country in. Every answer to the question has problems and opportunities, known and unknown (that’s right – unknown unknowns).
Durbin is building up to, I think, that the definitions of the authorization have been fulfilled, therefore, there is no longer a justification for the use of force.
Declare there to be no war in Iraq! Declare that there is only an occupation.
End it!!!
Good afternoon, firedogs-who-move-Congress — well done. Sorry to be late: A slight edit in the last paragraph, so please refresh.
tjb at 35 — Please don’t shout in all caps in the comments. It’s not polite and it makes for exhausting reading for those of us who have been online working all day as it is. Thanks.
Somehow, I don’t believe that the framers of the Constitution envisioned having an imbecile as Commander In Chief.
we have to start by framing the discussion.
whenever a democrat talks about ending this war he needs to do it with brutla critisism;
“we are going to stop the administration from abusing our armed forces for his personal vendettas
we are going to admonish the adminstration for provoking war in countries he was informed posed no threat.
we are going to honor our men and women in service and hold those to account who have abused their service and patriotism
we are going to rebuild our armed forces to the strength they were before the adminstration abused them.”
there are better metrics then those, I just haven’t had the time to come up with some really good ones but the point is made;
do NOT say
“we are ending the war in Iraq”
DO say;
“we are going to stop the abuse of our military and get them back on track preventing war instead of provoking war”
BING
Durbin refutes the “Dems don’t support the troops” argument: “The test of courage of soldiers is not to be measured by the wisdom (or lack?) of those who send them into war.” He’s covering all the bases and now calls for an “up or down” vote and not the 60 vote thing. And, Durbin says, how will Repubs explain this to their constituents.
Can we go all in for double or nothing?
It would warm the cockles of my heart to think they could be wiped off the political map for eighty years. Then maybe we could get something done.
A’57 @ 40
Sure they did. That’s why the remedy is Impeachment…:)
Liberal Heart @ 31
perfect! i knew some smart firepup would have the answer!!
impeach! and bring the troops home now!
Just called to give Senator Durbin some love, but all lines are busy — so I called the Chicago office.
long drive home on a beutiful day with top down weather in my little bitty convertable
will catch up later, bye for now firedogs
Great post Scarecrow.
Impeaching both Bush and Cheney is the only recourse we have left. The time to impeach is now.
…just sent Dick Durbin some email love…
John Warner being a little disingeneous on the filibuster issue.
David @ 30
Procuratio frutex delenda est.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 25
Still thinking about it. ;)
In theory, Congress has the power of the purse, but in practice that is an empty power when it comes to containing military power wielded by the executive. Once troops are in the field, it is politically impossible for Congress to extricate them without presidential cooperation.
Every time the Repubs attempt to claim loyalty of the troops to the “mission” created by their Neocon leaders,…point out that a bunch of troops are Democrats. Every time they insult the Democrats as unpatriotic, cut and runners, or any of the slew of insults they come up with, point out that they are directly insulting troops who are dying for this country.
Liberal Heart @ 16
geesh! there ARE other options, y’know.
don’t s’pose u’ve asked them about their feelings on the issue… *g*
Scarecrow @ 52
hehe…kiddo, you made me laugh out load for my long trip home…thanx
A’57 @ 40
He is torturing all of us just like he used to torture small animals. And he’s enjoying it.
I’ve wondered for a long time, why torture prisoners? Aside from being morally reprehensible, it’s not effective. But now I get it. It’s “because they can.”
Liberal Heart @ 46
Phone #’s, pretty please!!! 8-)
A’57 @ 40
Actually, they did. They had already suffered under George III. That’s one of the reasons impeachment is mentioned six times in the Constitution. Republican Party is not mentioned once.
They goofed up with Jessica Lynch as the American herioine with the right stuff. What a poster that would have made! Oops, caught fabricating the facts.
Well, Tillman would be a terrific poster. Oops something went awry. Did he refuse to cooperative? Did they think they could achieve in his death what they couldn’t while he was alive? What was in his diary? What is in the report the administration needs to keep secret? Hum!!!
A’57 @ 40
They anticipated both imbeciles and tyrants, what they never imagined was an emasculated, supine Congress cowering at their own shadow averting their eyes from the shredding of the Constitution.
Sorry to bore — but can we all use only “Occupation” and impress on our Congresscritters that they too should remember to stop saying “War!
Sam @ 24
Dogs speak truth.
Adie @ 55
That’s reserved for pillow talk.
David @ 29
Between Impeach, Guilty Senate verdict, removal and a conviction; there needs to be an indictment. My suggestion
is US Code:Title 18.2441.War Crimes.
www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002441—-000-.html
Under the Nuremberg Principles, the supreme international crime is that of commencing a war of aggression, because it is the crime from which all war crimes follow. The definition of such a crime is planning, preparing, initiating, or waging a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements, or assurances. Also, participating in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any such act constitutes such a crime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime
Walking into the grocery store this afternoon, I heard the first siren. Then another. And another. And a bus, coming from North Dakota into Moorhead, headed East to Hwy 10. Then police car after police car. Clay County sheriffs. Moorhead city police… sirens sounding, all.
Months ago a single soldier returned in a flag-draped coffin on a dreary-grey heartbreaking day. Heading home on this same route.
Today, a bus, and I thought of the morning paper. They’re coming home. National Guard. Under live fire only days ago, these small town men and women. Citizen soldiers. Weekend warriors.
The empty desk at the local bank. The shorthanded police dept. The EMTs pulling extra duties because their buddies are in Iraq.
They’re home now. To pick up the threads of living in the heartland again.
What have we done to them? What have they had to do in our name? And how can we be sure in our hearts that the next time….
CTuttle @ 58
1-312-353-4952
A’57 @ 41
That’s because the village idiot stayed in the village and everyone knew he was the village idiot.
David @ 30
I rather like: Impeach, convict, and ship the S.O.B.s to the Hague — gift-wrapped.
warner: do you realize that terrorists have moved into iraq?
uh duh, is that a real reason to stay? I mean, by staying, we are creating all kinds of enemies. Are we going to occupy their countries too?
Vitter is going to speak today at 5:00. Via TPM..
http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=6795125
There is only one war in Iraq, and it is a civil war.
Congress needs to declare that America is not at war with Iraq! That would remove any question of “war powers”.
I don’t think Bush would have a leg to stand on, because there is no declaration of war against terrorists. The GWOT does not exist.
Steve-AR @ 65
Sounds like a great place to start to me — now which Representative can we get to introduce articles of impeachment in the House?
maunga @ 29
The process of impeachment hearings and the actual debates over impeachment, if done well, will bring so much public weight in favor of throwing these bums out that we will get the votes. If we don’t we don’t but at least we stood up for the constitution.
selise @ 26
I don’t oppose not funding missions with which we disagree — that should be Congress prerogative. But remember Iran-Contra? Do both, but only one has a certain effect.
Liberal Heart @ 67
Mahalo Nui Loa! (Thank You Very Much) *g*
Scarecrow @ 64
Dogs know!
Scarecrow @ 60
I stand corrected. Which begs the question: What are we waiting for?
Great post, Scarecrow.
But, regarding
I have to say I’m pretty pessimistic. Given the Republicans’ power in the Senate,
and the number of Federalist Society types seeded throughout the judiciary,
Congress may never be able to bring this to a “crisis”.
Wars have consequences. Here’s what Ulysses S. Grant had to say about the Mexican War, in which he fought:
To us it was an empire and of incalculable value; but it might have been obtained by other means. The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times.
Scarecrow @ 52
Think Alex Trebek and Final Jeopardy music!
Warner – “efforts against Al-Qaeda”.
So, how can Bush claim “war powers”. Hellloooo.
realworld @ 74
Just don’t count on CNN to get it right by any stretch.
maunga @ 62
Failed occupation. Senator Webb said it bluntly then drifted back into calling it war… we must all–top to bottom–call it what it is: we won the war, Bush’s occupation is a failure and it is making us less secure. Over there and over here.
Get your state legislators working on bills of impeachment. These have to be recognized by the House under Jefferson’s rules.
Ed*ard Teller @80:
How chillingly accurate and appropriate to our current situation. Brrrr…
Is this the price we pay for Gulf War I?
Don’t forget, come September they’re gonna be rolling out the new product…
phred @ 72
Too bad we didn’t block Roberts and Alito…If we had a SCOTUS committed to the rule of law, we could have bypassed Impeachment and gone directly to Indictment for War Crimes.
Well. If the president had no money, then his desire to wage war is severely limited, isne’t it?
Congress (I mean YOU! Sen Reid and Rep Pelosi!) needs to strenuously exercise the power of the purse.
Cut off all military funding until the troops are withdrawn from Iraq and there is a guarantee that there will be no invasion or attack on Iran.
Period.
Scarecrow @ 75
i think funding the iran occupation with illicit drug and arms sales would be a bit more difficult than funding the contras.
that’s why i’m not convinced that de-funding can’t work.
but i like the two pronged approach. right now we have the no pronged approach.
called Reid’s office to register my support for standing tough – aide said he’d note my “Booyah!”.
The Occupation — let’s call it by its true name — is the core issue, not the ‘war’. A resolution banning the extension of conflict into Iran without Congressional approval is highly desirable,though that horse may have bolted the stable last week. However, the Occupation raises issues that transcend the urgent and tragic situation of our troops in Iraq. Those issues concern the question whether the United States should or can maintain an Imperium in the Middle East. Unless this issue is raised, debated, and hopefully decided, it will be decided the way our Vietnam misadventure was decided, on the ground and not to our advantage.
The Senate Foreign Affairs Committee need to hold extended hearings on American goals in the Middle East. Presumably these include the protection of Israel, which raises the question why we do not have a mutual defense treaty with that state, and ‘protecting’ oil supplies. Both issues demand real debate and not just restatings of old untested assumptions. What exactly is the reason for our committment to Israel? What are the alternatives to military protection of the Saudi oil reserves? Does it matter? If so, how does it matter?
One of the problems we face is that since 1945 we have with the help of the British pretty much run that part of the world, with the exception of a few setbacks like the Shah’s abdication, Nasser’s temporary alignment with the Soviet Union, and Saddam’s flirtation with real independence. So it’s very hard for our policy gurus to imagine a world where we don’t run the place. But we ought to think it through, if only to persuade ourselves that the cost is worth the candle. I don’t think it is, but am open to persuasion.
I note that Joe Wilson believes it is worth the candle. he signed up for Hillary today, and I think the main reason is that he supports her Middle Eastern policy, which is that in some format we continue to exert a degree of imperial authority.
Getting the troops out of Iraq solves an immediate problem, but it does not resolve the root problem.
Can’t remember where I read this:
We already have a constitutional crisis.
Impeachment is the remedy.
Bush’s little dog-and-pony, good-cop speech today is the attempted innoculation for fall, because they know they can’t survive impeachment.
Scarecrow – What was that all about – the “reality” vs. The Evil Parallel Universe?
And yes, I at least think I’m entitled.
There are no wars.
We are not at war with Afghanistan.
We are not at war with Iraq.
Al-Qaeda is not a country. There is no declaration of a war with Al-Qaeda. There is only an authorization to use force against those who attacked the US on 9/11.
The justification for the AUMF for Iraq has been completed.
Now, let’s get out!! No more money other than funds to use to remove the forces out of Iraq.
I’m late getting to the lake today. Can anyone tell me please if the tillman story got any MSM ink today?
jayt @ 90
good one!
jon @ 87
I thought that very same thing, when reminded of Andrew Card’s comment earlier today.
Brisingamen @ 86
No, Gulf War III – the Iraq/Afghanistan/Iran/Pakistan/Syria nuclear war, which will start fairly soon, is more of what Grant was prophetically conjuring, IMHO.
I say I say does anyone else hee-yah believe that Warner sounds verry much like Foghorn Leghorn?
David @ 30
Bill Moyers’ Journal had great interview with John Nichols & Bruce Fein about importance of impeachment to preventing future presidents (including Hillary & Barack, if either wins) from using many of the same tools that Bush has used with impunity. Program ran Friday night 7-13-2007 on PBS.
Nichols is the author of The Genius of Impeachment. Bruce Fein is a principled conservative who drafted one of the articles of impeachment on Clinton based on perjury.
They persuaded me that impeachment is the founders’ remedy for RESOLVING a constitutional crisis; impeachment is a response to a crisis, not the beginning of a constitutional crisis.
Even the MSM are slowly realizing that we are in the middle of a constitutional crisis….
LS @ 99
that’s a chiling thought, really. chilling.
LS @ 72
I had forgotten that — we have so much to occupy us, as well as earn a living, having pointed this out a while ago over and over again!
Constitutionalists —- is this viable? If it is, surely it is the elegant and quick way through the morass?
It is certainly true that Congress authorised the action in Iraq but did not Declare War!
Hey, Mitch! – Lisa’s got some explaining to do. So far, she’s keeping mum.
QuakerGirl @ 68
Remember how all the MSM used to say what a likeable fellow the preez was? I just never got that. But then some have called me dense.
LS @ 83
Tiny little detail which needs to be ppounded home: Al Qaida is organizing and hanging out mostly in PAKISTAN! This fact is the major mindf*ck that the admin does not want the US public to grasp.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 93
I think the next line is,”You can’t handle the truth.”
btw, your comment is OT.
Prairie Sunshine @ 95
This was from John Nichols discussion with Bruce Fein on the Bill Moyer’s Journal on the subject of impeachment. If you haven’t seen it alrady, please track it down and watch it. It is available on pbs.org
do-si-do @ 100
Spew alert! Thanks for the laugh – I needed it!
scarecrow:
Yes:
Article 1 section 8
and
Article 2 section 4
jon @ 87
Here I go being all Lakoffy again. But he tells us that what’s been missing all along is Dem ability to frame issues. And to frame them first.
And I think the September (or whenever) Big Surprise is a certainty.
Be watching for an anti-American event brought to you by the same administration that gave you Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Scooter Libby and Osama bin Laden at large, wiretaps, signing statements, vetoes and longs to wage war on Iran.
Or something.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 93
But the real reason is: it’s a great term, so I borrowed it. Thanks.
Impeachment is the answer.
Hello, Warner, reality talking here.
Congress isn’t talking about military strategy, but FOREIGN POLICY.
Steve-AR — I’m still hopeful I’ll live long enough to see several members of this administration indicted for War Crimes, but I’m willing to take things one step at a time. And the first step is defending the Constitution from its domestic enemies by removing them, Bush and Cheney, from office.
After that, we need continued investigations of their crimes, followed by criminal prosecutions. But until we impeach, nothing else can even begin.
jon @ 87
bigger and better surge x2?
or bomb, bomb, bomb iran?
or…?
OT (I hope that makes it better)
It is. But, I, as in the film, as it played out, can handle the truth.
BigMitch @ 108
We’ll have it up in the next thread.
Boston1775 @ 17
KEITH!
*xyz @ 113
The only answer!!!
Elliott @ 102
Rolling out the new product: that’s what I thought when I heard Lindsay I’m high on crack Graham on Press the Meat. “General Petraeus is going to tell us that it’s working.”
It is a great term, which is why I chose it as my “name” as a commentor.
Still, for the record. You got it backwards.
Prairie Sunshine @ 95
Is was part of the Moyers program. One of the men interviewed told Moyers strongly that impeachment is not a constitutional crisis. It is the remedy, the cure.
Republican spokesmen have been attempting to goad the Dems into voting to cut off funding. This is a political battle they think they can win.
A Democratic impeachment effort for the right reason (lying us into war with Iraq) will restore Democratic credibility around the world by thoroughly exposing those lies until they are understood at every dinner table.
A simultaneous push to join the world court would send the clearest of messages of what the next administration plans to do with this one.
Might the clock run out on impeachment? Remember the Supreme Court voted to cut off the recount in 2000 because of not enough time before inauguration (advantage: republican).
When voter fraud becomes an issue in 2008, the Supreme Court will decide that until the recounts are resolved, the current administration will remain in power because, hey, the Constitution allows a president to serve ten years after all (again, advantage: republican).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
The PR task force Reagan brought to the White House spread the word that he was the “great communicator”. Many of us thought he said dumb things and poorly expressed himself. We were embarrassed. Next thing you know the media was repeating the PR department’s line, “the great communicator”. And so history has recorded. The PR part is airbrushed out of history.
john in sacramento @ 111
No:
Pelosi
and
Reid
bluejeansntshirt @ 120
Impeachment is the only answer.
Ed*ard Teller @100:
So you think it’s going to go pear-shaped too, huh?
D-mn, I’ve been seeing mushroom clouds also; and thinking that that would settle the oil question real quick. No one is going to get it if it’s radioactive.
But what will it do to world finance? I’d bet the Great Depression will look like a picnic by comparison…
Evil Parallel Universe @ 116
Well, at the very least, I owe you a H/T:
Reality vs. The Evil Parallel Universe (h/t EPU)
Tweety is smacking Frank Gaffney around on Hard Ball right now!!!
Knut Wicksell @ 91
On the contrary, Knut, the US’s one-eyed support for its terrorist, rogue, economic colony, Israel, is at the core of the US mess in the Near and Middle East.
There was a suggestion made this morning that we might acknowledge the unique contribution to fdl lore made by EPU when the morning thread used this expression.
The temperature is getting a little hot here and I gently ask everyone to take a step back.
BigMitch @ 96
Why should it? The msm, press & teevee, totally ignored the hearings, which were explosive in nature.
Warner, in view of everything transpired over past 5 years, it is time to review the Authorization to use force.
So, did the GOP senators flip a coin and Warner lost, or does he really think he can stop this event from going forward, or what? I can’t quite tell where he stands.
Hi Scarecrow,
Thankyou for your wonderful wonderful posts.
Hope this isn’t too OT. Just sent a piquant e-gram to “our” Sen. V of UhHyah. Copy below. Too much? If so, too bad. It’s DONE-DID! Beats puttin my fist thru the wall.
Seriously, it wouldn’t have done any good to act more deferential (you’ll have to trust me on that), so I decided I might as well let it rip. Sure made me feel better to -um- treat him like a grownup. *g*
-uh- sent a very different little note to Senator Sherrod Brown, who’s doin’ just fine in our book, & deserves commendation; so that’s what he got. ;->
Once again, I selflessly (blush) offer you the code of the frequently-late-and-therefore-left-behind-commenter.
FUBARbara’d (as in, I’ve been FB’d). No conditions. Use freely. ^_^
You can read my initial response here, and a follow up at 61 on the same thread.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..ent-825082
Gen. Peter Pace is cranking up the idea of ANOTHER escalation.
We all know that this is a case of:
“If we don’t pack ‘em in there now, we won’t be able to do it in the thick of the campaign.”
It would be so…appropriate to get Reid and the rest of the dems on the record (and some repubs, too) against sending any more of our troops to Iraq.
The only way Bush could be removed via the impeachment process is, and it’s a long shot, after articles were voted out of the house, he then had a total melt-down. Then we have President Cheney. This is not Nixon’s Republican Party, when it might have been possible to get a conviction. The criminal enterprise calling itself the Republican Party will never provide the 17-18 votes needed for conviction.
Feingold on impeachment at DKos.
Shorter Russ: let’s not waste our time.
Feingold’s opinion cannot be easily dismissed.
Scarecrow @ 129
It would have been a real pisser if this comment got EPU’d! ;)
Joe Wilson is a lifetime US diplomat, which means that he worked his way up through the ranks based on merit, not on politics (it is worth noting that many/most ambassorderships–like USA’s–are political appointees. A problem which has plagued the US foreign service, in contrast to–for example–the British foreign service). In other words, he has been out in the field, and has, by necessity, had to pay attention to the intelligence on the ground (maybe how he met Valerie in the 1st place) and had to fine a way to balance it pragmatically with the politics in DC. I was working in KSA during the Clinton admin, and while I have some severe criticsims of that time, I would have to concede that that the Clinton foreign policy during that time was much more pragmatic.
It is worth noting that “real” diplomats are a very special breed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 106
Me either — I couldn’t believe anyone would vote for a clone of Frank Burns…(M*A*S*H*)
I’ve got to give some props to John Warner. He’s playing the game with Durbin with great finesse.
Note that the current debate between them is a question and answer session, and is not using up any of Durbin’s time. And they haven’t even started the 30 hours of debate that will follow the failure of Reid’s cloture motion.
Short Warner – We need to change the wording of the Authorization of use of force for Iraq, to regulate the president’s powers going forward.
Knut Wicksell @ 91
While I agree that a debate about American Empire is desperately needed, the core issue we face today is the staggering lawlessness of this administration. That is the root of every action they have undertaken. They do not feel compelled to tell the truth. They do not believe they are bound by the rule of law. They believe they can pursue their ends by any means they choose, without supervision or guidance by the Legislative Branch and beyond the reach of the Judicial Branch. Until the Executive Branch is compelled to abide by the law, nothing else can be resolved.
*xyz @ 113
The only answer.
Steve-AR @ 143
Cheney could go first. After all, there was no “President Agnew”.
Frank Gaffney says we should not cut and run from a twenty year multi-generational war with one front in Iraq.
P.J. Crowley says we are not winning. We created this mess in Iraq.
Tweety back in a minute, “are you hot for Hillary?
fur cripes sake!
Bustednuckles @ 43
That’d only be a good thing if another party rose to be a solid opposition for the Dems.
It’s bad enough we’ve only got two major parties. (Or one and a half, depending on how you count.) No way in hell do I want only one.
allan_in_upstate @ 140
Yes it can.
barbara @ 123
Thanks, guys. I think somebody must’ve commented on that, and I recalled the comment since I missed the program.
“Constitutional crisis is already here. Impeachment is the remedy.”
Sing it, pups….
Egregious – As I said earlier (see above links), I’m neither angry nor making demands. I’m really most surprised that someone could conclude that “reality” is anything other than the evil parallel universe (capitalized or not) everyone not in Chimpland lives in.
barbara @ 123
That was John Nicholls, if I remember right
Woodhall Hollow @ 148
And there’s no time like the present.
Tillman story? Please, there were several crucial and informative car chases that occurred today and don’t forget the assassination of a country singer.
Meanwhile CNN’s war-whoring correspondent Barbara Starr is pushing the newest theme: ‘Iran is set to make things difficult for America’.
Here’s what Zbig Brezinski had to say about the trajectory of the surge:
“A plausible scenario for a military collision with Iran involves Iraqi failure to meet the benchmarks; followed by accusations of Iranian responsibility for the failure; then by some provocation in Iraq or a terrorist act in the U.S. blamed on Iran; culminating in a “defensive” U.S. military action against Iran that plunges a lonely America into a spreading and deepening quagmire eventually ranging across Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.”
P.S. Frank Gaffney on Hardball conflating all Arabs and Muslims and fanning the flames of global takeover by “Islamo-fascists”.
-GSD
allan_in_upstate @ 141
What about Harriet Meirs? Anybody gonna drag her wrinkly behind into the House to testify, or obfuscate, whichever? What’s happening with that? I mean, it’s outrageous! More news that’s treated as “non news.” What happened to inherent contempt?
Evil Parallel Universe @ 138
My sincerest apologies. I did not see your comment this morning, and would have responded immediately with at least a (h/t) and or “with apologies to His Ubiquitousness.” If you come to YKos, I’ll buy you a drink.
*xyz @ 151
As I said: Impeachment of both Dick Cheney and GW Bush (& Libby & Gonzo for good measure) is the Only Solution to all that ails this county!
allan_in_upstate @ 139
Money Quote:
“I fully respect the anger and frustration many Americans feel with this Administration. I share much of it. But on balance, I think Congress’s time is much better spent ending the war in Iraq, conducting the oversight that was absent for the last six years, and advancing progressive legislation.”
Woodhall Hollow @ 148
Without question.
Loo Hoo. @ 71
Woo Woo Loo Hoo! Dare we hope resignation is in the air in Katrinaville? In any event let us hope and pray he spares viewers the Jimmy Swagger sobbing.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 138
Oh ma god. Are you claiming responsibility for the chimp etc? Wow. Very, very brave although somewhat foolish of you.
You know what?
There is a timetable for Iraq. the whole world knows january 2009 is coming.
EPU — You know, if you bothered to grace us with your deitific presence more frequently in the comments, you wouldn’t have to remind us of the meaning of your title. *g*
This just in.
Jeff Sessions is a simpering dink.
ET
whose your daddy, Lisa!!!
phred @ 146
george kenney (ex-foreign service) says that in his experience when american foreign policy is lawless and imperialist… it tends to come home eventually.
maybe an imperialist foreign policy tends to give us an imperial presidency.
Naraka at 167 — Mweee heeee. You just made me spew my iced tea…
Empeach both bush and cheney. The only solution.
Evil Parallel Universe is the best description of aspects of the Bushista Regime there is. period. EPU is one of my FDL heroes. Living at the the northwest edge of the fdlosphere, and often getting home from work long after most pups are asleep in their doghouses, I feel EPU’d here almost as often as EPU.
To do list:
1. Impeach Cheney, remove from office.
2. Refuse to confirm new VP.
3. Impeach Bush, remove from office.
4. Swear in first female President of the United States.
- – - – - – - –
In my voicemail message to Speaker Pelosi, I said I wanted Impeachment because it is the only way for Bush’s crimes to be taken off my hands as an American citizen. I said it didn’t matter how hard Impeachment was, and it didn’t even matter if Impeachment was successful.
What matters is that Congress as Our representatives express Our collective revulsion with this anti-American, Imperial president through the remedy of Impeachment. If Impeachment is unsuccessful, that will only be a reflection on the Republican Party, a further proof of that party’s utter corruption and disintegration.
But if this Congress fails to Impeach at all, it will be a reflection on the utter weakness and moral deflation of the Democratic Party.
In the end, the only way the United States is going to survive as a present manifestation of the founders’ vision is if we elect a critical mass of progressive Democrats.
john in sacramento @ 154
That was brilliant. And it is worth noting that the other person in that incredible conversation was John Fier, a die-hard “conservative.” Who advocated bringing articles of impeachment against Bill Clinton.
gee. i wasn’t s’posed to think they could impeach the-both-of-them rascals? wull sure. i knew that!
so whut. that’s exactly what i told her speakership to put on my dream-table.
no patience in this household.
none whatsoever.
*g* ‘cept for eachother *g*
42 beautiful years together tomorrow
;->
Hillary interview that’s heating up the internet?
That’s what Tweety just said.
CTuttle @ 161
Surely in that august body of over 400 Congresscritters they can manage to do more than one thing at a time?
Elliott @ 156
Be a leader in your community. Wear an impeach tee-shirt next time you go running or shopping. Put an impeach bumper sticker on your car.
Once people see a fellow citizen stand up for impeachment, a movement will begin.
Impeachment is the only way to go. It is required by the constitution when elected officals will not play by the rules. Trying to restrain them by any other means is useless. They have no respect for anything. Throw them out. It is required and it is right.
Sessions is citing the war of 1812 and the civil war…
Badwater @ 148
Agnew was indicted for bribery and resigned..My point is even considering the remote possibility that Bush or Cheney or Gonzo is impeached by the House..there will never be a conviction. Rather than Agnew the better analogy is there still was a President Clinton following his impeachment.
itwasntme @ 170
The Only Solution. To preserve any semblance of democracy in the land.
newspaperbrat @ 163
No resignation. Wife and children dragged in for further humiliation he tries to pin on others. Checkers pisses on his leg.
We need to fight back against the meme that withdrawal is a change of strategy. It is a change of objective, not strategy. The objective was a permanent occupation of Iraq, the strategy was, what ever it was. The objective needs to be restoring the honor and reputation of the United States. There’s probably a better, more market savvy way to state the objective but we need to turn their language on them.
OK, so warner says congress has no business involving itself in strategy and then sessions says what? you want us to change strategy now?
so which is it? you have a say or you don’t?
yes, they’re dinks!
Naraka @ 166
!!!NO KIDDING!!! GET.OUT!!!!!
*xyz @ 177
Good advice, twill help get the ball rolling.
selise @ 116
My money’s on Iran – can’t let them set up an oil exchange denominated in euros… or let those 2, maybe 3 fleets just sit there doing (relatively) nothing.
But if these clowns can find a bigger, shinier hornets nest than Iran to kick over and not know what to do next, they’re certain to do that. Sure will take your mind off of how they’ve fucked up Iraq, Lebanon, and the palestinian’s.
CTuttle @ 161
If Bush and Cheney were impeached, ending the war would be a lot easier — and so would advancing progressive legislation.
could someone explain just wtf Sessions is talking about?
on second thought – never mind – if he starts to make sense to me, I’d be worried – about me.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 169
sorry ’bout that. I have to let it out every once in a while.
itwasntme @ 179
Cue “Battle Hymn of the Republic.”
GSD @ 157
Not far off from what our Alfred is imagining.
BigMitch @ 168
The land deal has got to stink more than this guy does if she didn’t put him in the fridge by now. Whitewater, Shitewater, the ignored Alaska Senator may finally get the scrutiny she deserves.
john in sacramento @ 155
John Nichols, a writer for Nation magazine, and the author of “The Genius of Impeachment,” said this on Bill Moyer’s Journal, Friday night.:
Sherlock @ 178
next the message will be to tell Nancy Pelosi to do her job, Impeach!
Woops. Jeff Sessions just slipped in a little phrase that he isn’t sure how he feels about the war now (or something like that). I think he just signaled a “blink”.
Would holding Harriet Miers in inherent contempt and hauling her butt into the House in any way aid impeachment by forcing testimony or revealing some kind of evidence? I’ve been hearing something to this effect but I don’t know the reason why other than the fact that Congress is able to bypass the DOJ. We wouldn’t make it to impeachment with our current DOJ, would we?
ET — While I’m thinking of it, you posted a link to a requiem piece that you had written and I’ve lost the bookmark that I had of it. It was lovely, and I’d love to listen to it again if you’d be willing to shoot me the link?
Loo Hoo. @ 175
Joe Wilson!!!! I HOPE you are reading this. Tell Hilary to support articles of impeachment against Dick Cheney (the war criminal) and GW Bush (the Dick enabler).
Woodhall Hollow @ 174
John Fein who drafter the first article of impeachment against Clinton
Iran just asked Japan to begin buying their oil from Iran in Japanese yen.
-GSD
Prairie Sunshine @ 178
In defense of Russ, the House could draft the Articles while carrying on other matters, but, the Trial phase in the Senate would preclude any other legislative endeavors within that chamber!!!
barbara @ 192
more like Camptown Races
Doo-dah! Doo-dah! The Camptown racetrack’s five miles long Oh! doo-dah day! Goin’ to run all night Goin’ to run all day I bet my money on a bob-tailed nag …
Steve-AR @ 181
That’s because the Senate voted to acquit Clinton. If they’d voted to convict him, Clinton would no longer have been President.
The reason Nixon resigned rather that wait to be impeached is that he was told that the Senate WOULD vote to convict him.
*xyz @ 176
i still like “IMPEACHES”
or “IMP” w/ pics of 2 peaches
or some combo.
ignore me.
we’re goin’ to see Harry Potter on our anniversary. no. really. ;->
Prairie Sunshine @ 177
My email to Feingold:
“I don’t understand the notion that there is too much work to do to impeach the criminals who are destroying our country. Nothing good will come out of the senate with Bush and the republicans obstructing the work of and for the American people. So why do work that will be destroyed.
I also believe that it is possible for congresspeople and senators to multi-task.
Or who got to you senator?”
barbara @ 193
Naw, for Jefferson Beauregard “Jeff” Sessions III it’d have to be Dixie
Hatch is hammering us with the votes already made.
I cant listen to much more.
I hear they are asking for more troops in Sept.
On a lighter note:
Those of you with small children might want to turn off your TV at 5 pm Central Time.
David “Diaper” Vitter will be holding a presser.
I was thinking Yakety Sax…
sandflea @ 198
DOJ had no role to play in impeachment which begins with a Bill of Impeachment in the House, (analagous but not exactly like an indictment) and then to trial in the Senate.
marymccurnin @ 205
Mary, see my 202 comment!
do-si-do @ 204
How ’bout: Froggie went a courtin’, he did ride, hambone! Froggie went a courtin’, he did ride, sword an’ a pistol by his siiiide, hambone!!
CTuttle @ 162
All of which is moot if the GOP continues to obstruct. Therefore, impeachment rises to the top of the list.
I wonder what product is required to get the slime off the lectern after Sessions finishes speaking?
The debates on impeachment of the chief executive
The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787
reported by James Madison : July 20
and
The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787
reported by James Madison : September 8
and
Guide to Impeachment and Censure Materials Online
twolf1 @ 211
Naw, with Boots passing away recently, we really shouldn’t insult his memory that way.
#100 and 128
Oh yeah. Not alone in that one.
We’ll be lucky if all we get is the black helicopters and the occupying troops. (If they show up and I’m around, I’l tell them ‘Sure, you can have those @#$%^ #$%^s in DC. With my blessing.’)
do-si-do @ 203
If we all get a couple of balloons and suck down the helium, we can have the Jeff Sessions singers!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 199
Cool! That you liked a piece of mine, that is. The only piece on my page I’d consider a “requiem” is called Shards. I wrote it to commemorate the thousandth US casualty in Iraq. You can download it for free. If you go to the page of that url, I’ve got 21 pieces up now. You can download any of them for free. Some are happy!
selise @ 169
An interesting point, but it strikes me as a chicken and egg argument. In any event, you cannot rein in an imperialist foreign policy when imperialists are in power.
Brisingamen says:
Me either — I couldn’t believe anyone would vote for a clone of Frank Burns…(M*A*S*H*)
At least Frank Burns didn’t pretend to be a cowboy or a fake Southerner. The similarities, however, are remarkable.
Klinger was a better man than Burns. Klinger had principles.
Talking points with gravitas please:
ohh, iran is backing alquaeda in iraq
ohh, dem congress is a failure
ohh, surge is working
ohh, we’re for new strategy in iraq
jayt @ 215
Fortunately, there are pesticide-free solutions for this, a common problem at AEI and Heritage.
GordonM @ 190
‘cuse me. A massive logical disconnect.
1) It is the current admin talking point that Al Qaeda in Iraq is responsible for the violence.
2) Al Qaeda is Sunni.
3) The Iranian regime is Shiite.
4) Saudi Arabia (and other hard-line Sunni regimes/interests) have been pushing back against the Iranians (age-old schism between Shiites and Sunnis) for years! Said differently, the Sunnis hate the shiites and vice versa. (Just go to Karbala during the memorial ceremonies of the Imam Ali if you don’t believe me. Or for that matter, any typical Iranian city).
WTF? We need somebody like Joe Wilson to explain the logical disconnect here. I mean from a diplomatic-American interest perspective.
“Hardball debate: Is the WH telling the truth about Iraq”
About bloody time.
sandflea @ 215
I say, that’s mighty fine, sandflea, mighty fine. My stars, I buhlieve it’s time for a mint julep. Care ta join me?
prarie sunshine at 66 says-”Walking into the grocery store this afternoon, I heard the first siren. Then another. And another. And a bus, coming from North Dakota into Moorhead, headed East to Hwy 10. Then police car after police car. Clay County sheriffs. Moorhead city police… sirens sounding, all.
Months ago a single soldier returned in a flag-draped coffin on a dreary-grey heartbreaking day. Heading home on this same route.
Today, a bus, and I thought of the morning paper. They’re coming home. National Guard. Under live fire only days ago, these small town men and women. Citizen soldiers. Weekend warriors.
The empty desk at the local bank. The shorthanded police dept. The EMTs pulling extra duties because their buddies are in Iraq.
They’re home now. To pick up the threads of living in the heartland again.
What have we done to them? What have they had to do in our name? And how can we be sure in our hearts that the next time….”
that gave me goose-chills….really, wow…..same as your other post did, the one at night……..still picture it……..
oil, the crude truth.
sandflea @ 198
Has it been five days yet? You are right, the media has totally blown off the story.
My goodness, this guy is a terrible actor. Feigned indignation! You know when the ‘Hof could give you acting lessons, you are really not very good at it.
C’mon Mr. Sessions, quit talking, my dog thinks you’re a squeaky toy.
egregious @ 228
Scarecrow – Apoligies and/or belated h/t, accepted. But it really is the other way around – that was and still is the genesis of the name.
Nomolos – You’re new, and don’t know me other than as a neologism (or by the ghost stories they tell about the EPU to scare the kids at Camp FDL around the fire while eating smores….but I digress). Yet I will deign to respond anyway: If the real universe is the evil parallel one, then Chimpy’s hallucinatory/fantastical one isn’t. So how can I be responsible? (And I am going to spot you the “rhetorical question” on that last one).
CHS – I never thought I would have to explain it since to me it always seemed obvious which universe was our/the world’s everyday reality and which was and is and will be ChimpCo’s fantastical, hallucinatory one. I’ve been asked before. Plus, I assume, and I think it is a fair assumption, that everyone has memorized everything meaningful (or not) that I’ve ever written here – I know I have. ;-)
As for commenting more? Perhaps at some point in the future, it’s a possibility.
allan_in_upstate @ 225
Mr. Clean eraser spongie-thing.
Then a firehose.
BigMitch @ 200
EVERYONE should watch that conversation. Esp the part wherein both piled on the niave but well-meaning Bill Moyers for his naivette!
Oooh, KO is gonna be good tonite! His preview was about Inherent contempt for Ms. Harriet!!! *g*
George Mason on impeachment
Steve-AR @ 181
I think you’re wrong on this point. Impeachment proceedings will put the lawlessness of this administration on the front page news and it will headline broadcast news. The hearings won’t be relegated to CSPAN-3 where they are now, so the public will finally see what many of us here see.
Even Rethug Congresscritters are not gonna be willing to sink with Bush’s dinghy of state, so they will bow to public pressure — much of which will come from conservatives who hold the Constitution in high regard (unlike the 28%ers).
Howdy y’all. I don’t understand the post but i do want congress to stand up to Bush.
Ok, my dark side wants the entire fillibuster to be undertaken solely by Sessions. Hours and hours and hours of that voice…
_That_ might take the whole matter to another level.
OK, well, would any of you agree that the new dem senate strategy is working and that the GOP has to spew on with their continued BS and put the lie to what they are telling folks back home?
Or is this a dillusion on my part? I know I can’t listen to cspan2 anymore. Big hugs to Senators Reid, Feinstein and esp. Durbin today. Wow.
phred @ 221
nah, not chicken and egg – i just think it’s all related… push back on an imperial foreign policy might help at home. push back on an imerial presidency might help with our foreign policy. systems theory – not linear causality.
phred @ 239
I agree. And even the MSM in its current configuration couldn’t ignore impeachment proceedings against the president.
You know, oil really is the crude truth for ALL of this.
Ben Franklin on impeachment being a remedy against the chief exec. from being unjustly accused
SnarKassandra @ 239
Sandra–it is worth taking the time to understand. The future of our country depends on it.
Adie @ 236
disposable lecturns
EPU at 234 — As always, it’s good to see you. Hope all is well and that you aren’t too horribly busy these days. And, if you are going to Ykos, will be nice to finally make your acquaintance in person. :)
That goes for everyone else who is going as well that I haven’t met as yet. That was my favorite part of the conference last year.
Do we REALLY have an illegal immigration problem?
Declaring a “moment of choice” in the Middle East, President Bush said Monday he would call Israel, the Palestinians and others in the region to a peace conference aimed at restarting stalled talks and moving faster toward a Palestinian state.
Declaring a “moment of choice” in the Middle East, President Bush said Monday…”
Israel welcomed Bush’s remarks.
sorry about the caps in 35 but
when someone goes to battle for us
and is shot in the face three times because he had on body armor
and no one else suffered a scrach in his company
And he’s screaming ‘I’m Pat F***ing Tillman
and evidence is destroyed
then the white house claims ex. privilege on the truth
I tend to get a little upset
Beside this is the key to Joe six pack swinging to our side when you talk about nfl
Woodhall Hollow @ 247
Oh I know that it is important to impeach Cheney and Bush. I just don’t get the connection to 1973.
phred @ 239
i dunno, our repugieSen is purty rubbery-legged.
SnarKassandra @ 252
Adie @ 253
My Senators (Idaho) are going down with the ship. Party before country. Always has been, always will be.
tjb @ 252
You are quite right. I share your sentiment about the Tillman investigation.
The all caps thingy does something to the server.
James Madison on impeachment
selise @ 243
It is all related, and the powerful derive their power from those here at home who support the imperial agenda. So perhaps, as noted above about the Senate, the right approach is to tackle both at the same time: remove the Imperial Presidency and persuade the electorate that Empire is inconsistent with Democracy.
tjb @ 252
I agree, this could be the story that everyone can understand. They’ve gone too far.
Naraka@232
“C’mon Mr. Sessions, quit talking, my dog thinks you’re a squeaky toy.”
Great line! In fact, that’s the line of the day. ;-)
SnarKassandra @ 253
1973 — Nixon’s cover-up of the Watergate break-in, which resulted in Nixon’s resignation from the Presidency in 1974.
2003 — A lie on the part of Bush, Cheney et alia launches the US into an unwise military adventure.
The connection is that both Presidents LIED to the citizens of the USA.
john in sacramento @ 246
Thanks for that — I haven’t seen this before…
egregious @ 260
do you sense that this story is “getting legs”
is it penetrating?
hey mebbe we won’t need multi-tivo after all.
how many repug talking points are there?
i mean, really, 3 hrs tops, rinse, repeat?
Someone might wanna take up another collection for batteries and more memory cards for Marcy. I see possibilities shaping up here. Not close enuf to tell what they are yet. Say. What on EARTH is that screeching twitter? oh yeah. Carry on Mr. Sessions. How’s it goin’ sir?
Havin’ fun yet?
unh oh. cat’s stalking the tv. this could get ugly…
Grassley is putting me to sleep…..geez. Doesn’t he know there is a war on?
tjb @ 252
I am deeply concerned about this as well. If anyone has any leads on documents and connecting the dots, I would like to help.
epu at 234 says-”Scarecrow – Apoligies and/or belated h/t, accepted. But it really is the other way around – that was and still is the genesis of the name.
Nomolos – You’re new, and don’t know me other than as a neologism (or by the ghost stories they tell about the EPU to scare the kids at Camp FDL around the fire while eating smores….but I digress). Yet I will deign to respond anyway: If the real universe is the evil parallel one, then Chimpy’s hallucinatory/fantastical one isn’t. So how can I be responsible? (And I am going to spot you the “rhetorical question” on that last one).
CHS – I never thought I would have to explain it since to me it always seemed obvious which universe was our/the world’s everyday reality and which was and is and will be ChimpCo’s fantastical, hallucinatory one. I’ve been asked before. Plus, I assume, and I think it is a fair assumption, that everyone has memorized everything meaningful (or not) that I’ve ever written here – I know I have. ;-)
As for commenting more? Perhaps at some point in the future, it’s a possibility.”
just so you know, your moniker was not the first time i had heard evil parallel universe…….one of my friends has been using that as a reality in dungeons and dragons since high school……..late 70’s………
so although you provided a new definition of it, ie: late posting, the parallel universe that can be evil, has been used in my circle for years……..
Wow . . .
The war powers of Congress and the 2002 AUMF being openly debated just now on the floor of the United States Senate, by Dick Durbin and John Warner, as they relate to the ongoing occupation of Iraq.
Who’d have thunk it possible. To add to the points I raised about those war powers, the 2002 AUMF, and the War Powers Resolution in yesterday’s ‘Out of Control’ thread, I want to re-endorse this wise position paper about the war powers of Congress, which was formulated by the Richardson for President campaign (and then apparently deep-sixed by them as far as public promotion goes, for the most part):
There’s much more to it, and I highly recommend reading the whole thing:
http://wa4richardson.blogspot……ation.html
P.S. Please lose the ‘calling 911′ slur against the Iraqis, Dick Durbin [if only because it’s logically inconsistent with your new (and very welcome) approach of pointing out that 70% of Iraqis feel less safe because of our military occupation of their country, and want us to leave]. And please explain, or ask John Warner to explain, how Iraq is not now already a “failed state” – which is allegedly only a future possibility after we withdraw and allow the Iraqis to reclaim control of their own country, according to Warner and Cornyn, et al. But overall, Senator Durbin – you did a very good, ‘thinking on your feet’ job of getting a lot of truth out to the American people and responding to Senator Warner’s questions, even if you couldn’t bring yourself to mention Congress’s Clause 11 war powers under Section 8, when you enumerated the other clauses that empower Congress with responsibility and authority in matters relating to our Armed Forces as they pertain to the Levin/Reed bill.
phred @ 258
yes. silver buckshot – not a silver bullet (al gore uses that one when talking about the climate, but i think it works in lots of areas).
Brisingamen @ 261
That is, they both lied to cover up crimes against the people and the citizens of The United States.
Congresswoman Barbara Jordan on the impeachment of President Richard M. Nixon
A President Is Impeachable If He Attempts To Subvert The Constitution
Tucker’s going to have the Vitter statement in next couple of minutes.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 251
Nothing beats a ‘moment of choice’ does it?
SnarKassandra @ 253
Congress tried to stop the Vietnam War back in 1970, and thought they had by repealing the original authorization, but President Nixon insisted he didn’t have to listen to Congress — just as Bush says today — so Nixon continued the war until 1973, when he and Sec. State Kissinger reached a “peace agreement” with the North Vietnamese. Lesson: it’s hard to stop a President who feels he’s above the law.
Adie @ 254
Well, as someone once said about Tom Delay (whose previous job had been as an exterminator), most members of Congress probably have the best jobs they have ever had in their lives. So I doubt they would willing sink their own re-relection hopes rather than bow to public pressure.
Besides, the corrupt Rethugs likes them those perks of office. You don’t think they’d walk away from all those cocktail weenies on purpose do you ;)
To me, the most brilliant moment in Congressional history as far as war powers go, occurred with the introduction of the Ludlow Resolution, for the last time, in 1937. The resolution would’ve become a constitutional amendment. As Louis Fisher wrote, in his book, Presidential War Power,
The amendment was defeated by the House, 209-188, early January 1938, falling short of 11 votes to put it across. Of the total who signed a petition to bring the resolution to the House floor, 55 congressmen, including 52 Democrats, voted against the resolution. This narrow defeat is credited to President Roosevelt, who, in a letter to the House majority leader, Bankhead, condemned the measure in the strongest terms.
The excesses of Wilson and FDR are not documented as often of they should be in assessing watershed moments in presidential war powers.
HMMM, I see I missed the Omniscient one earlier. Of course, he already knew that.
;~ )
dmac – I never claimed to have “invented” the phrase. Just that it is my online blog participant persona. Most notably here at FDL.
If I had to guess it’s it’s original provenance, I would go with science fiction from the 40’s.
Beautiful, ET.
New Scarecrow cawing upstairs
And Tuckery being his usual a**wipe self and quite disingeneous on Vitter.
New thread.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 279
EPU is as original as the Big Bang. And just as powerful.
This filibusteration is gonna have all kinds of unintended consequences. People grabbing the encyclopedia, at long last, to read the Magna Carta…
darker, horrible stuff…
tib at 252
I’m glad you used the caps. Sometimes, that’s what it takes. Thank you.
Steve-AR @ 88
Woodhall Hollow @ 271
I submit that every American President since WWII, and many before, lied to the American people about crimes committed against US citizens and others. Even Dwight Eisenhower had to lie when asked if he knew that Gary Powers’s U-2 had been shot down. There have been many programs by the DOD and DOE, where presidents were made aware of exposure of US citizens to toxic chemicals or biological agents, nuclear waste plumes purposefully leaked from reactors so that satellites or surveillance aircraft could map and image their characteristics, and on and on.
What makes Bush unique in this regard is the degree to which he pursues intentional falsehoods, combined with his unprecedented incompetence and plain bad luck.
selise @ 270
Silver buckshot — I like that! Hadn’t heard it before, thanks selise!
LS @ 273
Of course he is. Purrrfect.
epu at 279 says-”dmac – I never claimed to have “invented” the phrase. Just that it is my online blog participant persona. Most notably here at FDL.
If I had to guess it’s it’s original provenance, I would go with science fiction from the 40’s.”
yep, that’s where my friend got it, big science fiction freak……..
epu at 154 says-”Egregious – As I said earlier (see above links), I’m neither angry nor making demands. I’m really most surprised that someone could conclude that “reality” is anything other than the evil parallel universe (capitalized or not) everyone not in Chimpland lives in.”
the most clever thing you’ve ever said.
dmac – You obviously haven’t memorized my entire opus. You should. I’m always most clever, by HALF! ;-)
Ed*ard Teller @ 286
Well put. We’ve never before had a President who combines corrupt cronyism with imperial hubris. Most have the sense to choose one or the other.
I, for one, am exceedingly glad for the return of the prodigal son, er daughter (whatever) – Evil Parallel Universe to this site.
And those other pretenders of ultimate tardiness, especially that fraud ejdrivingstorm can move over and defer to his/her lateness’s rightful throne.
epu at 291 says-”dmac – You obviously haven’t memorized my entire opus. You should. I’m always most clever, by HALF! ;-)”
ok, then : ), let me clarify-
that is one of the most DEEP things you have said, which in my book is the most clever…..since i go for the deep thoughts………so, i think those are the most clever……..
Scarecrow,
I like your “The Bush/Cheney War” …. after all that’s exactly what it is. This should be the official name for it from now on. Just so there’s no mistaking later on when they start to play “Pin the Shitmire on the Donkey”.
“The Bush/Cheney War” it is!
here is my 2 cents– As R rhodes and others have put it- The word “impeachment” appears 6 times in the Constitution and the word god does not appear at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So- we have to impeach the bastards.
the fastest route to Impeachment is through
the forest of lies about 911. Expose the truth and the people will follow.
Why are some many so sure they lied about everything but that??
By the way, Members of Congress know (or should know) a good deal about what there is to know about their ‘power of the purse’-based and their legislation-based ability to end the occupation of Iraq, because the Congressional Research Service spelled it all out for them in a report dated April 24, 2007. It’s a stilted document (at least until it starts discussing House and Senate funding rules), obviously hewing toward authoritarian Republican views that twist the clear tenets of the Constitution and the views of the Founders, while also tolerating (and pretending to be) the mainstream views of the situation:
Http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL33837.pdf
There’s a glaring omission in it, though, in my opinion, for a document addressed solely to the Legislative Branch of government and intended to elucidate its powers. Because a Congressional concurrent resolution (unsigned by the president) has never happened to be used before by the Legislative Branch (been “historically taken”) to end an armed conflict, the report treats such an option as, in effect, non-existent (though specified as available in 1973’s War Powers Resolution). This circumstance is doubtless a direct result of our mostly good faith presidents to date, who cooperated with the mostly good faith Congresses in doing what was best for the American people, in matters of war. As a result, Congress has never yet been forced into such a Clause 11 unilateral ‘undeclaration of war’ by concurrent resolution (even Nixon signed the repeal of the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, before he added his signing statement…). In discussing the War Powers Resolution, the CRS report instead tries to rely on the 1983 INS v. Chadha case (that james mentioned the other day, in which “Congress may not invalidate executive decisions by one-house ‘veto’”) as precedent for why it may be “highly unlikely” that Section 5(c) of the War Powers Resolution would be held to be Constitutional if ever used. That’s a pretty wild, disingenuous stretch for me, considering the potency of the inherent power vested solely in Congress by the underlying Clause 11 provisions that Section 5(c) is based on, and the significant differences between the legislation and procedures at issue in INS and the WPR. The report seems to equate (or claim that many or most scholars and historians equate) such a unilateral resolution with a law (that must obviously be presented to the president for signing), but they are very different animals, authorized by different sections of Article I of the Constitution. A convenient argument to try out in pursuit of the ‘Unilateral Executive’ theory of authoritarian government, perhaps, but not one that Congress ought to voluntarily buy.
The bottom line: We need and the Constitution deserves a Supreme Court ruling to ascertain the true balance of war powers in this country today. The good faith of prior presidents and Congresses is being abused today to promote the tyranny of the current bad faith president in the waging of war. Congress must test the limits of its own war powers, at long last, to settle this state of affairs, and to put a stop to this abuse either by SCOTUS intervention, or by Constitutional amendment if need be.
A parallel approach to forcing that court ruling on the extent of their inherent Clause 11 war powers, could be for Congress to start planning for a Constitutional amendment that would add the words “and peace” after “to declare war” in Clause 11 of Article I’s Section 8. The power to declare war is downright dangerous and ominous without the reciprocal ability to return the nation to peace against the wishes of an authoritarian Commander in Chief (especially with today’s industrialized military might) who can veto any legislative attempts to do so (or threaten to hold troops on a foreign battlefield hostage to a reduction of funding), and use his political party in Congress to sustain such a veto. War must not be more difficult (and ought to be easier) to end than it is to begin, at least in terms of authorization.
Finally, something that gets to the floor debate between Warner and Durbin on Monday, about what I consider to be bad faith parsing that defines a “specific” statutory authorization (under the WPR) for the ongoing Iraq occupation to be each and every funding bill passed by Congress for the conflict, in addition to the 2002 AUMF (which was based on the WPR). This definition was asserted as a justification and as authorization by Warner on Monday, which disturbed Durbin because Durbin voted against the 2002 AUMF but in favor of every Iraq funding bill since; about that, there’s this from the report:
Importantly, however, Section 8(a) of the War Powers Resolution went out of its way to eliminate the use of funding bills as implied or “specific” statutory authorization for conflicts under the WPR, thereby end-running those earlier court precedents (a fact which Senator Warner conveniently overlooked in arguing his position and which apparently Senator Durbin was not prepared to point out to him in rebuttal).
But it seems pretty clear that, so long as Congressional occupation-funding continues (which Carl Levin for one apparently illogically insists it must, no matter what), an affirmative vote, by unilateral Congressional Clause 11 concurrent resolution, to deny further authorization for this conflict is needed, if Congress wants to stand on the firmest Constitutional grounds that have yet to be, but should be, tested in court [probably in addition to trying to pass a simple Congressional legislative repeal of the previous 2002 authorizing act - though that didn’t work too well during Vietnam, pre-WPR - which of course must first overcome a presidential veto, as must any end-date-certain legislation].
phred @ 61
Actually if you read the Virginia debates on ratifying the Constitution they did discuss both an inept and a corrupted Congress in league with a despotic President. That’s one reason they allowed impeachment to be initiated by the State legislatures as well as through Congress.
ermyno J. d’storm @ 124
There is NO “clock” on impeachment. Impeachment can occur even AFTER an individual has left office. There was a Secretary of State who was impeached AFTER resignation (although most members of his own party refused to convict because they said “what’s the point”).
But the point is clear. Impeachment doesn’t just remove an individual from their office…it also PREVENTS, in the FUTURE, that individual from “hold [ing] and enjoy [ing] any office of honor, trust or PROFIT under the United States.”
No Ambassadorships, No judgeships, No appointments to advisory committees~ paid or unpaid, No grants or stipends, no travel money, no contracts with Federal Agencies, no use of the Presidential Seal or Title, no Presidential Library with official documents, No franking privilege, no Secret Service protection…not even the use of the TITLE of POTUS or VPOTUS without the addendum “Impeached and Convicted” (use only for historical reference rather than “honor”).
NO subsequent powers to block Presidential records would be possible since that would be a power of trust and honor accorded to an unimpeached and Trusted and Honored Official.
Not only would a “late impeachment” have actual consequences it would also be symbolic that NO PRESIDENT can VIOLATE HIS OATH TO PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION.
It’s impossible to raise this point NOW since pointing it out removes the winds from the sails of those that believe that they can “run out the clock” and conceal their crimes. It steamrolls their whole rationale for stonewalling.
It gets the Republicans in Congress to realize that they can’t escape the inevitable.
But the first step is the holding of hearings in the House on issues where Bush has violated the Constitution. They need to review ALL of Bush’s “Signing Statements” and see if he has, in fact, refused to follow the very laws he put his signature to. They need to point out the Geneva Convention Articles he violated (lawful treaties which if violated by anyone else would clearly constitute a violation of US law). They need to point out that the failure to abide by the principle of habeas, suspending it during a time when the US was neither invaded or undergoing an armed insurrection, undermines not only the fundamental principles of democracy but also explicitly violates the Constitution. They need to build this case point-by-point and ACT.
Funnydiva2002 @ 9
Great idea. Could we add a “three day countdown” with suggested comments for the writing of personal letters. Look at these stats to see how We The People can make a difference in personal statements delivered by snail mail, phone, email and fax. Faxing personal letters and then following up with mailing the hard copy is important too. It is our country and our voices do have the ability to bring change as idealistic as it sounds.
There’s a way to stop the war: Budgets in committee can get marked up with zeroes. This would mean the bill — as presented to the chamber — would require an Amendment to add any money from zero to something. Even if the President were to veto this final bill, or the GOP were to offer an Amendment, the only way the President would get money would be if the DNC cooperates. But rather than do this, the DNC is whining the GOP is blocking; no, the DNC is not leading.
The above is possible, but not being used. I can only conclude that the DNC is choosing to rubber stamp. Any other conclusion would ask that we believe the DNC cannot do what is possible. I am not impressed with the DNC: They have the option to end funding for the war, but refuse to do what will make that happen. The GOP and President aren’t making or forcing anything; the DNC is refusing to block and continue rubber stamping what We the People said in November 2006 needed to change.
Removing Bush and Cheney through impeachment is impossible as the GOP Senators (which includes Lieberman) will never vote to convict. So we are back to November 2008 and a fresh start in 2009. Until then, our troops will remain bogged down in Iraq’s civil war. (Unless Bush moves from the terrible to the catastrophic and attacks Iran, in which case our troops are going to be facing a situation akin to the Yalu in 1950.)