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The photo at left is a picture of Salwann Chmagh, the son of Saeed Chmagh, age 40. He was a driver for Reuters News Agency. He was killed this week in Iraq along with his colleague, Reuters photographer Namir Noor-Eldeen, age 22.
A preliminary police report obtained by Reuters said Noor-Eldeen and Chmagh had been killed by a "random American bombardment" that had killed nine other people.
The US military said “The incident was under investigation...”
This week we learned more about such "incidents" with The Nation publishing The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness - a report prepared by our recent Book Salon guest, Chris Hedges and Laila Al-Arian. Based on interviews with “fifty combat veterans of the Iraq War from around the United States in an effort to investigate the effects of the four-year-old occupation on average Iraqi civilians” it “marks the first time so many on-the-record, named eyewitnesses from within the US military have been assembled in one place to openly corroborate these assertions” of what the authors call “disturbing patterns of behavior by American troops in Iraq.”
"I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi," said Spc. Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado. Specialist Englehart served with the Third Brigade, First Infantry Division, in Baquba, about thirty-five miles northeast of Baghdad, for a year beginning in February 2004. "You know, so what?... The soldiers honestly thought we were trying to help the people and they were mad because it was almost like a betrayal. Like here we are trying to help you, here I am, you know, thousands of miles away from home and my family, and I have to be here for a year and work every day on these missions. Well, we're trying to help you and you just turn around and try to kill us."
He said it was only "when they get home, in dealing with veteran issues and meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then."
And from the Guardian we have a short video that brings together the faces, voices and experiences of both Iraqi civilians and US soldiers. It’s the work of Sean Smith, a photographer who has been covering Iraq since the invasion. Smith was embedded for two months with US troops in Baghdad and Anbar on his most recent assignment.
Look closely at Salwann’s photo, look closely too at the portraits that accompany the Nation article and Smith’s video – and then tell me why we should stay one second more.
Photo by REUTERS/Mohammed Ameen (
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First!
Madness.
Iraq is a sink-hole, manufactured by BushCo and Halliburton. There will be no “winning” strategy except getting our troops out alive. The American public is finally figuring this out.
Bob in
HIWII was going to write about this article and this video on Saturday at Digby’s, but it was just so f’ing depressing I didn’t write a word on Saturday.
I couldn’t watch the whole video.
Dover Bitch @ 4
I wondered what had happened..I thought the re-fresh on my browser was acting up. Glad to see you are back in action.
How did we ever get into this. I am sick.
spurious @ 7
We got into this the way Americans always get in bad situations - by not paying attention. I think we always want to believe that everything is okay until something really bad happens and then we are stunned and say “how did this happen.” We MUST watch these people in DC very closely - including the Dems/
spurious @ 7
It happened because we were lied to.. and we on the far left were arrested and ignored while trying to get anyone to listen.
Twain @ 8
Exactly right..by not paying attention..This disaster has been in the works for at least 40 years. It’s like the story of cooking the frog. A slow change in the environment and the frog never reacts.
The President always talks about spreading Democracy like its a good thing to force people to live the way we do with a gun. Our solders go there with the best intentions and because they are ordered to, they get shot at by the people they are trying to help. People who quite honestly think that we are there to steal their oil.
On one of the Sunday newshows some talking head said in D.C especially in the White House there are still people who think we can win. They will blame the Democrats for losing this war if we pull out. Which is what our spinless Congress seems to be afraid of.
But after this war the Republicans will argue that we need Bush’s Tax Cuts more than we need to spend money on Medical and Mental healthcare for the troops. This “dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi ” quote is a cry for help. I wonder if anyone will ask the Republican Presidential Candidates which is more important Bush’s tax cuts or helping our troops?
Los Angeles Folks!
Bill Moyers Journal Impeachment repeat on KCET right now.
I want us to leave Iraq. And I demand accountability. I am weary of the killing fields.
Steve-AR @ 6, Thank you.
Impeachment, to be followed by war crimes tribunals.
Please?
demi @ 12
that was so worth seeing.
Twain @ 8
A lot of us were paying attention, and watched unbelieving as we were dragged into a war that didn’t make sense. We listened as democrats made speech after speech about how they didn’t want us to go to war, and then voted to authorize the war anyway. What most didn’t realize at the time was that they were arming a madman.
I posted this on an earlier thread but it fits here quite well:
Cpl. Trent D. Thomas faces murder charges after witnesses alleged he shot a 52-year-old Iraqi man.
Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.
“We were told to crank up the violence level,” said Lopezromo, testifying for the defense.
When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: “We beat people, sir.”
My bold. Here’s the AP story from CNN
The photo has seared itself into my heart. I considered not using it - it makes me heartbroken to see it just as the article and the video do. But I realized once again that we must look, we must listen, we must watch the whole video because this is real. It does not stop if we don’t look - and it does not get better for the people who live it. If we cannot stop this, we must at least bear witness to what is being done to our brothers and sisters in humanity.
Eureka Springs @ 9
Those who opposed the war from the beginning recognized the lies, propaganda and cheerleading and they were totally overwhelmed by a complicit media, the politicians, the Military industrial complex and redstaters bent on revenge at any price on anybody.
Viva SDS! Take it where it belongs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G54lfxiid_w
Hackworth - it was not only red-staters, it was Democrats who cared more about their approval ratings than the people of Iraq and the soldiers they sent to fight.
Look closely at Salwann’s photo, look closely too at the portraits that accompany the Nation article and Smith’s video – and then tell me why we should stay one second more.
Horrible. There is no reason we should stay one more second. None.
Twain @ 8
Good analysis but….
Now we need to do far more than just ‘watch’. It’s past time to demand action.
I’ve been in a bit of a spin since the Bill Moyer PBS broadcast the other night with guests John Nicols Wash DC editor for The Nation and Republician Bruce Fein, a constitution lawyer/scholar whom I believe served in the Reagan administration.
The one where both guests framed the subject of impeachment of Bush, Cheney & Gonzales as the CURE rather that the CAUSE OF our current and most chilling Constitutional crisis. If you missed it there is a good clip on Moyers web site of the most important excerpts of the broadcast.
So dear spurious and other firepups rest assured it will do wonders to watch a video that actually compells us to watch over and over again and spotlight repeatedly. We must do everything in our power to insist MSM widen the coverage and more importantly pressure Speaker Pelosi and everyone of our congresscritters to create agreement to impeach sooner than later.
For example, our Rep. Sam Farr signed on to Murtha’s impeachment plan the day after the Moyers broadcast appeared.
Speaker Pelosi needs to hear from each of us and our networks that we demand she lead impeachment not dodge it, and every Democrat in the House and Senate of both parties.
And if they keep dragging their cluby little feet I propose a national strike day where we all refuse to drive, shop or show up for work.
There are likely better links but the gist of the broadcast can be found here
http://www.pbs.org/media/wnet/moyers/journal/111
4/BMJ1114_impeachment1_480.mov
I haven’t mentioned anything bad about my party all day. Can that be called progress?
AP - Democrat Barack Obama ended the first half of the year with a formidable $34 million cash on hand for the presidential primary contest, while boosting his overall financial picture from April through June with a vigorous fundraising drive, the campaign said Sunday.
Money, money, money.
1,578 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Spurious and the Firepup Patriots:
“How did we ever get into this. I am sick”
We got into this by followin the same evil forces and profiteers that have worked us into every imperial “police action” in our history since the sinkin of the battleship “Maine”. All of the key political players from Rumsfeld to Cheney and a cast of hundreds of political appointments in various strategic Departments and the federal judiciary go back to the Viet Nam War and the Nixon administration and/or represent families who have been profiteerin’ from investments in war, war-makin’ or slavery since at least the the 1850’s (see the Walkers and the Bushes and the descendants of President Pierce).
The only way out of this horrible situation is to get us out the same way we got out of Viet Nam - with hundreds of thousands (millions) in the streets all across the country especially in seats of encumbant Democtratic power. The Democrats will NOT act to end this occupation or stop the comin’ attack on Iran unless we scare the bastards into it…the Democrats must be forced to defend millions of their base while they are bein’ bludgeoned in the streets.
Move On and Democracy Now and the activist blogoshere must act as the organizers and coordinators of mass protests and general strikes across the country…folks with the blogophones and the power of the blog podiums hafta step up and help us organize. If we can’t mobilize the folks this summer, it won’t matter who is elected where in November of ‘08.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…SOMEBODY’S GOTTA STEP UP!!
Siun @ 22
It has been easier and simpler to maintain Bush’s lies than to tell the truth. The truth is buried so deep that most of our democratic leaders prefer to support the lie. In order to tell the truth then, the dems needed to directly contradict Dubya. Very few people could have appreciated that truth so soon after nine elva. So they maintained the lie then and they continue to maintain it now.
It is difficult to contain my outrage as more and more of this information becomes available. I am absolutely horrified what has been done in our name to the people of Iraq, our military, their families, and our country. I can no longer look at an American flag without experiencing anger and shame that our patriotism has been twisted into an excuse or cover for these unspeakable acts of inhumanity.
Maliki has said we can leave whenever we want, as long as we provide guns and training. Well, we’ve trained the Iraqi police during the day so they can use the weapons and training we have provided to go out and kill their countrymen at night, and are AOL when our troops need back-up, so as far as I am concerned we’ve done more damage by arming and training them. The Iraqi people want us gone, the government, stuffed with thugs who are just waiting for us to leave so they can finish the ethnic cleansing, want us gone. If I thought we could help the people of Iraq I might think a peacekeeping force a good idea, but we are just dragging this out and making it worse all around. If we leave, the Saudis and Iran will have to step in and back the factions they support. Let them. They are doing it now and watching us bleed white into the sand and laughing at us.
The only thing keeping us there is greed and a desire to control that oil. I’m sick to death of hearing other excuses. They are all lies, just like the lies that got us to invade in the first place.
Where are our leaders? Why are we not planning a coordinated march all across America? Everyone who wants to end the occupation, everyone who wants impeachment, and hell, let’s invite the immigrants. Why wasn’t this done on the 4th of July?
Where are the leaders? Will I meet them at YK2?
Every member of congress should receive a copy
of this video with an enlarged copy for Harry Reid.
If the Cpl Trent Thomas Court Martial were broadcast live on CSPAN, we would have “real” Reality TV. We would see what we are asking our soldiers to do every day in our name. It is shameful, and our citizens need to recognize it.
Loo Hoo. @ 30
Loo Hoo, You are a leader.
The impression here is that the ‘truth’ has been laid bare for several years. And a majority of Americans are now seeing the truth about Iraq. Finally.
Soccer mom’s. There is something more important and vital than soccer. Your children’s lives may very well hang in the balance.
Suin - Thank you. The video is hard to watch but even harder for the Iraqis and our military. I can close down my computer and watch TV to calm down. They can’t.
Yes, every policy maker who agrees with this heinous war policy should be required to go to the far front of the battle and stay until the job is done.
For those who believe in this war, put your body where your mouth is.
Bring our troops home, now!!!
There are no winners in war. War is lose-lose.
hackworth @ 33
I can sure help here in San Diego County, but I need someone to tell me a time and date. It has to be in every major city in America. We need a song. We need a color. We need bumper sticker coordinated message. I want every major newspaper in the world to show colored pictures of Americans who are as mad as hell at their government, and particularly our co-presidents.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
This entire thing was very carefully planned and, to be truthful, it was really quite brilliant. The gov’t made sure that the American people were really never emotionally involved, told us to go shopping, and everyone just went on with the daily lives - except those families who were contributing kids to go and fight. I have never in my long life the citizens of this country so uninvolved in a war. They just assured the country that everything was being taken care. There, there, don’t you fret.
Liars and thieves.
pierce aero @ 32
If the Cpl Trent Thomas Court Martial were broadcast live on CSPAN, we would have “real” Reality TV. We would see what we are asking our soldiers to do every day in our name. It is shameful, and our citizens need to recognize it.
Bill Moyers: “Those of us in public television have an obligation to make that viewers like you stay in the loop. I wish we’d carried the congressional debate (on Iraq) this week - in full - all of it, in prime time. When we broadcast teach-ins on the Vietnam War, and the Watergate Hearings, during the trial of Richard Nixon, it was a real public service. We should keep Iraq in prime time, every week. The fighting, the dying - the suffering and the debate; the politics, the extraordinary costs. It’s months until September, and this war is killing us now. Body - and soul.”
(from the Moyers’ Journal this week featuring Bruce Fein and John Nichols).
SteveNS @ 15
Here! Here!
I M P E A C H ! ! !
jayt @ 39
Bill Moyers: “Those of us in public television have an obligation to make that viewers like you stay in the loop. I wish we’d carried the congressional debate (on Iraq) this week - in full - all of it, in prime time. When we broadcast teach-ins on the Vietnam War, and the Watergate Hearings, during the trial of Richard Nixon, it was a real public service. We should keep Iraq in prime time, every week. The fighting, the dying - the suffering and the debate; the politics, the extraordinary costs. It’s months until September, and this war is killing us now. Body - and soul.”
(from the Moyers’ Journal this week featuring Bruce Fein and John Nichols).
That was a powerful closing statement!!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
Re: the Democratic Presidential Candidates - the political price for telling the truth is too costly. Dubya’s WOT is a waste of lives and money and it has produced the exact opposite of its stated goals.
“…it was not only red-staters, it was Democrats who cared more about their approval ratings than the people of Iraq and the soldiers they sent to fight.”
;0)
hackworth @ 42
Yes.
Siun @ 19
The photo has seared itself into my heart. I considered not using it - it makes me heartbroken to see it just as the article and the video do. But I realized once again that we must look, we must listen, we must watch the whole video because this is real. It does not stop if we don’t look - and it does not get better for the people who live it. If we cannot stop this, we must at least bear witness to what is being done to our brothers and sisters in humanity.
Thank you, Siun.
Bill Moyers has more than done his part. If they try to shut him down this time, WE must stand with him in great numbers.
An FYI I wacth a little thing called “Alive in Baghdad” I don’t know if its available in Itunes I use a player called Democracy. The program is produced by Iraq’s and parts sometimes found on TPM’s web site. Sorrow, anger and hope all rolled into one. And I think this is being done in my name and my heart screams no more.
argosfalcon @ 47
Have a link?
edit.. I found one, http://www.aliveinbaghdad.org/
Bush suddenly likes his veto pen. Look at what he will veto:
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c.....s-and.html
The Children’s Health Insurance Program bill makes 17. What else is on the block?
1. The College Cost Reduction Act - H.R. 2669
2. Homeland Security Appropriations - H.R. 2638
3. State-Foreign Operations Appropriations - H.R. 2764
4. Interior-Environment Appropriations - H.R. 2643
5. The Energy Price Gouging Act – H.R. 1252
6. The No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels (NOPEC) Act - H.R. 2264
7. FY 2008 Defense Authorization Bill - H.R. 1585
8. FY 2008 Homeland Security Authorization - H.R. 1684
9. Hate Crimes Prevention Act – H.R. 1592
10. D.C. Voting Rights Act – H.R. 1905
11. Rail and Mass Transit Security Act - H.R. 1401
12. Presidential Records Act Amendments of 2007 - H.R. 1255
13. Whistleblower Protection Enhancement Act of 2007 - H.R. 985
14. Reauthorizing Clean Water State Revolving Loan Fund - H.R. 720
15. Employee Free Choice Act - H.R. 800
16. Requiring Medicare to Negotiate Lower Prescription Drug Prices - H.R. 4
[Note: This — the Financial Services and General Government Appropriations Act — makes 18. For more on which, see the very last link, below.]
1,578 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen oklahoma kiddo and the Firepup Patriots:
“Soccer mom’s(sic). There is something more important and vital than soccer. Your children’s lives may very well hang in the balance.”
Yes indeed, brother kiddo, but the soccer moms and the unregenerate hippies and the broken down Nam vets and the youngsters today need organizers and map readers who have expertise in the new technology in order to bring us together for direct action. The Pachacutecs and Jane Hamshers and Christy Hardin Smiths and the Digbys et al and the folks at Move On and Democracy for Amerika etc need to step up… if we don’t experience the power of direct action this summer we will lose the means to effect any political change for ever short of insurrection.
Here the link www.aliveinbaghdad.org
Here’s a link to Alive in Baghdad - I haven’t seen it yet but it’s available in many formats.
Attention Congress:
STAYING IS NOT LEAVING
Thank you.
QuakerGirl @ 46
Are these programs available somewhere on the web? I’m not tv-oriented and have missed most of them.
TeddySanFran @ 53
Doing nothing is not an option (get your head out of your focus groups and do something).
Loo Hoo. @ 49
One party rule.
Democratic Party radio response to Bush from Brandon Freidman
spurious @ 54
Go to Bill Moyers Journal
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
spurious @ 54
here
Am watching the repeat of MTP. Lindsay Graham is frightening. I beginning to wonder if Rove/Cheney has something “on” him. He can’t be this dumb.
Hearing him say that the Senate voted unanimously last week that we are “in a proxy war with Iran” is chilling — right from their playbook.
NorskeFlamethrower…
…;0)
Jane(NYC) - I hadn’t seen MTP … thanks for the info on Graham. That certainly underlines the importance so many of us put on that Amendment vote and should remind us why we need to watch even each little step they make.
add:
Khalid W. Hassan, New York Times reporter
Assassinated near Baghdad yesterday
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/82823.html
134 journalists killed in Iraq since start of war.
Thanks, QuakerGirl and realworld.
The surest manner in which to stop the madness is to Impeach Shrub/Deadeye! What part of the process wouldn’t be a MSM bonanza? It’s a sure fire goldmine for the MSM, subsequently, one would think they would be more receptive to the idea!!!
Jane at 60, I’m starting to believe that Cheney has something on nearly everyone which is why no one has the guts to act against him.
The best of outcomes likely entails the Iraqis and Iraqs sovereign government requesting a near date American complete pull out from Iraq.
There really is no point for Americans to stay on and continue the carnage,ineptness and plain brutal ignorance that many Iraqis surely must associate with an ongoing daily American presence in Iraq.
The US Congress wont do it based on what is right ethically or morally.Just is not going to happen when evidence of 97-0 votes for more ME conflict ramp-ups are being tallied.
The Bush/Cheney regime? Expecting them to do what is right,moral,ethical or non-warmongering in nature is a fools quest.
Iraq will have to request…demand…the USA leave Iraq. It may lead to more deathdealing and mayhem but that is for the Iraqis to work out or find ways around. Not the Americans…we have demonstrated our failure well enough repeatedly these past four years plus in Iraq. Our record is fully one of shortfall,ineptness and profound ignorance and heedless conduct in Iraq. It is time for us to leave Iraq to the Iraqis. We have failed to show we indeed are the agents of good in Iraq.
Expect similar photos coming out of Iran when the ignorant,warmonger Americans attack Iran.
The Iraqis are seeing every day how “benevolent” we Americans are.
The imperial Americans are fast becoming very Hitlerian in methods and dark thinking these days in the greater ME.
American conduct in Iraq and towards Iran and surely the pathetic American WestBank/Gazan view of aiding Israeli brutality and expungement of Arab Palestine are all indicative of a deep run of sickness in American ME thinking/acting and American failed accountablility on ethics,moral conduct and being on the right side of human events in ME.
The Americans are not the good guys in ME these days.
The photo above spells that out plainly enough.
Loo Hoo. @ 49
We need a post or two to discuss this this is a lot of information and the implications of Bush killing all the hope in these bills is sad.
spurious @ 56
Chimpy will veto everything because anything that passes into law will look like Congress has done something and if that happens it will strengthen their position.
The only effort worth taking is the effort to impeach these fuckers. Hearings, then Impeachment, The a trial and then conviction!
We need to focus on Gonzales. If we could get them to impeach him, it would be a body blow to the boy king and tie up a whole bunch of resources in time and effort. I believe if we really pushed, the Dems might be able to get that started. They are simply NOT going to impeach Bush and Cheney right now - I wish.
Marretta @ 66
I agree. Every time the repubs in congress show any sign of independence at all, Cheney goes to the hill for a meeting, and suddenly they are all toeing the line.
Here’s another depressing thought.
Reparations.
Yep.
WHen the dust clears, our nation, on top of the untold cost of internal damages to our servicement and economy, will rightly be judged responsible for damages incurred duedirectly and indirectly to an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.
realworld @ 69
Amen.
Iraq’s PM first said we could leave ant time, but his aide then said oops he mis-spoke hmmm. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....0715/iraq/
I was reading the Gorilla’s Guide and stumbled on a review of the Facing The “Dark Assessment
‘ posted by Scarecrow on July 13th. It is a very angry review. Not nice at all, but I think it should be heard. And not only here. This is the opening graph.
A constant theme here is that if you want to know what the Americans are really like and why we Irakis both despise and hate them is because of their unthinking racism. It screams from every sentence of that posting. Nowhere does the author pause even for a millisecond to reflect upon his country’s victims there is a quick mention a hasty bow in the direction of the American need to assuage their conscience and that is it. Here in Irak we view things differently.
Grilla’s Guide Scroll down past the first article.
Edit - Not that I think we at the Lake are racist, or deserve this rant, but it does apply to large numbers of thoughtless Americans.
Mack (I owe you multiple emails) - reparations is precisely right.
realworld @ 40
Impeachment isn’t needed to charge any or all of the administration under the 1996 war crimes law or for any of the hundreds of felonies they have committed. Cheney could be indicted tomorrow and there is nothing in the Constitution protecting the President from being charged. The fact that the DOJ and the Federal Judiciary has been subverted is a bit of a problem.
Unlike the Nixon and Watergate era, now the Republican Party is a criminal enterprise and not a political party. And unlike now, the Nixon WH didn’t control the MSM and the message. I don’t know what the answer is, maybe it is too late for answers, but impeachment isn’t the answer. In this environment, there is no chance Bush could be removed. The idea that the process will change minds, was operative in the ’60’s, it isn’t operative now. If the idea that the House and Senate can hire their own lawyers and bypass the DOJ is real, then they should do it and go to court. I think the “fix” is in but we need a Constitutional crisis and we need it quickly.
things come undone @ 68
As someone had earlier remarked that Moyers is certainly doing his best to shed light on this sordid affair, similarly, Kagro X is doing the same within the blogosphere!!!
sorry that should be “at” we should leave the ants out of this it’s our mess.
Lahoma says I may want to tell you good evening. And she’s right. As usual.
SeanPaul Kelly had a very important post over at the Agonist with a pdf of the memo George sent explaining what he would veto if it appeared in the DoD Authorization bill.
It is very telling - and a clear message of George’s intentions.
I agree, things come undone at 68.
argosfalcon @ 79
oh, I dunno, a few well placed fire ants could be useful.
What small amount of time I have watched CNN this weekend the Iraqi Prime Minister has been shown while telling Americans “We want you to leave, we just need a little weaponry and ammo, but you need to go now.”
Siun @ 64
They’ll be saying it over and over this summer to acclimate the shopping American people: “The Senate voted unanimously that we are in a proxy war with Iran.”
Then, when the war comes, people won’t be surprised. Everyone will say, “Weren’t we already?” and go shopping. September, before the Petraeus report is due, I bet.
mack @ 72
True. If only we could buy the loved ones who have been killed.
there’s a bigger picture that i wonder about-
all of the countries in the world, and NOT ONE is stepping up to call out bush…….i find that totally strange…….
we walked in and took over a country to control its oil, put in a friendly regime…..and to be able to camp out…….
why is noone doing anything about it? let alone, saying anything about it? i can think of a few reasons, but not strong enough ones.
no wonder he smirks.
i smirk because he still doesn’t have his oil bill, and iraq wants us to leave……….and it doesn’t look like their parliament is going to meet in the middle any time soon……the race is on…….will we get the deal before we have to pullout????? i don’t think so…….
Reminds us of another place on the planet that we made a huge mess of…
Thanks Siun for once again looking at this squarely and bravely.
Elliott @ 83
You just might be correct using the word “right” seems loaded now.
Senator Webb said something about a poll saying only 37% of the military support the war. But these people have a much greater stake in the war they are there. Whatever their postion on the war is they are a lot more polarized on this issue than us. If the GOP loses the military vote as hard as this is for me to believe but its what the numbers suggest.
Then we should see the red states change purple. They will elect moderate Democrats to end the war but still stay conservative. These military voters being more polarized and having more at stake personally are more likly to show up to vote.
The Bushies in contrast are demoralized by scandal and failure at war. They are less likly to show up to vote.
So in conculsion the redest states might be going purple next election. The moderate red states the pink ones might be the only ones still standing after the election.
Steve-AR @ 77
IANAL, but I don’t think you can indict a sitting president. To impeach is not to remove but to charge these b*stards with the high crimes they have commited, and only a majority of the house is needed. Whether or not the senate eventually convicts, this process will produce evidence and shine a light on the activities of these scum. Impeachment now is exactly what is needed.
Loo Hoo. @ 86
and the haunting ripple effect of each and every death… unfathomable.
mack @ 72
Not us Exxon Mobile
things come undone @ 90
PAPER BALLOTS!
dmac @ 87
When you encounter a lunatic with a gun who is killing people, you might not want to draw attention to your self. Could be that over their history they have seen this show before and wonder if they leave it alone maybe economic disintegration of the US is the best way to deal with this?
things come undone @ 93
respectfully differ
when we take back our country, we take back it’s debts
our responsibility
maybe we can get something from Exxon Mobil later
http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....licy_N.htm
Another Veto! Hadley is suggesting Bush would veto the Lugar/Warner (nothingness) bill.
Via TPM. (and why are tpm and fld not on each other’s blogrolls?)
Good night all. Molly is pestering me to throw the ball and stop staring into this box. Sometimes she sits on my lap staring into the computer trying to figure out what’s so fascinating about it. She prefers the ball.
dmac @ 87
The French called us out pretty effectively pre-invasion; as the former colonial power, they knew that our Niger-uranium excuses were bullshit. But the USA is rather scary — look what we do if we don’t like you!!? And the Chinese have a tremendously vested market and finance interest in our ongoing success as a consumer economy. Some sweet deal was made with Putin in K-port, of that you can be sure.
Our decline, or disruption, should it come — will be painful for the entire globe. Who wants to be seen to start that?
Re earlier question about massive protests: The Answer Coalition is trying to organize a million person march in DC Sept 15. Link here.
i also like the idea of a general strike the same day. watching the “shock & awe” coverage on tv that first night i was physically ill- throwing up.
QuakerGirl @ 98
I had a deaf cat who hated the phone for just that same reason. “What’s the motivation?” he used to wonder. Then, when I was gone, the phone would be destroyed.
Loo Hoo@ 94 Good point we have to be on guard! But Karl couldn’t steal the last election and I’m betting his personal biases are distorting his “math” again.
I mean I have trouble accepting the implications of this poll and I try hard to be a Lefty! Karl’s personal biases would force his mind to shut down before he could accept this. Because to accept this would mean that he has failed, he is wrong, he is an idiot, and all the crimes he and Bush committed were not and will not be justifed by the ends.
The ends Rove has worked for will not happen if the Democrats win in a landslide of End the War Bush hate.
(((brkily)))
Yes Teddy we are part of the global system, I was just thinking about the old guns and butter thing, but by the time we ran out of money for guns the butter would have melted anyway.
Get real used to that face of Iraq because that face is about to expand a thousand fold after we attack Iran with the Democrat’s blessing. It is all over the blogs now. Take a gander at Thinkprogress. Barely had the senate voted for war with Iran via Lieberman’s bill that Brownback was on CNN calling for strikes against Iran RIGHT NOW! Above that article is a bit about a new Guardian article about how the “debate” in the White House about how to deal with Iran has shifted in favor of the Cheney side: murder, murder, kill, kill, attack, attack all Iranians all the time. We ARE going to attack Iran now and the Democrats are complicit. The “face of Iraq” above is about to expand into the face of the entire ME, courtesy of the US of A. The most corrupt, criminal, an lawless country since Nazi Germany.
Like hell they are trying to help. They are trying to conquer them and are failing because of their bloodthirsty, racist, savagery.
That’s because that is exactly what they are doing.
No it’s an expression of how American troops regard anyone who they call a raghead. I saw it in Afghansitan and I’ve seen it in Irak.
Stop feeding yourself comforting lies. They’re in the mess they’re in because of the barbaric way they behaved from day 1.
brkily @ 100
Fine with me, let’s make it nationwide!
argosfalcon at 95 says-”When you encounter a lunatic with a gun who is killing people, you might not want to draw attention to your self. Could be that over their history they have seen this show before and wonder if they leave it alone maybe economic disintegration of the US is the best way to deal with this?”
maybe…….but i still wonder…..why would they let us have that much control over a commodity that they also need? they couldn’t disintegrate us economically if it succeeds……and strategically, we win……that’s why i don’t understand why they are sitting back and letting us do it……
Another hard to read but must be read post, Siun. Thank you.
For those interested, TSF is upstairs.
mack @ 72
Not that I think it will happen, but if it should happen, who do you think will end up paying the bill? The fuckers who raped not one, but two countries? Or the sheeple who cheered for the rape of Iraq, even as they themselves were being raped of treasure and blood to get the job done?
teddy at 99 says-”The French called us out pretty effectively pre-invasion; as the former colonial power, they knew that our Niger-uranium excuses were bullshit. But the USA is rather scary — look what we do if we don’t like you!!? And the Chinese have a tremendously vested market and finance interest in our ongoing success as a consumer economy. Some sweet deal was made with Putin in K-port, of that you can be sure.
Our decline, or disruption, should it come — will be painful for the entire globe. Who wants to be seen to start that?”
yeah, i’ve considered those, but i still don’t see why they aren’t exhibiting any resistance about it…….especially now that it isn’t going at all well………we’ve been placating a lot of countries, but they can’t all be that complaisant…….
and yeah, we are scary, and yes, what happens to us affects the globe…….
nite all……..thanks siun……..
Thank you so much Siunshine!
Just heard — Nancy Pelosi’s office is taking calls (202-225-0100) voting for Impeachment of Bush/Cheney. (Say yes or no to the daily poll. It will be forwarded to the Speaker.) CALL TODAY. At the toll free capitol switchboard 202-224-3121, you can also call your district’s congressional representative to insist he or she support impeachment (e.g., H Res 333)
OT-from Attaturk at Rising Hegemon . .
Hey Joe Lieberman? is the read.
WE NEED A SCORE CARD FOR THE PROGRESSIVE BLOGOSPHERE!
One which defines and spells out a bit of the history of the Sunni/Shia and Bush Family thing.
So you can keep in on your desktop, and call FOUL, every time the MSM prints, says or shows a lie or just STUPID reporting.
Cuz Attaturk shows more revelations about the evil linkages of power, money and conrol. And another reason why the Dem’s are as evil as the Pub’s.
They are all in on the same Royal Scam (Steely Yerself).
‘Splains it all . .
Cheney, Halliburton, Abu Dhubai, oil, and Bush Family.
They are LONG time pals of House of Saud, and the Whabbist’s, who are all Sunni, and HAVE been, for hundreds and hundreds of years.
And THEY are killin OUR soldiers in Iraq, NOT the ‘Shia Insurgents’ loyal to Al Malike (Sadr, Badr, SCIRRI).
So we took out a Sunni (Saddam), let the Shia loose, and now, are being kilt by Sunni’s from Saudi, and we want to get and do Iran, to kill the Shia.
So the House Of Saud can rule Whabbist Style, in Shia Country, as our proxy.
But for now, we gotta let the Sunni kill us and the Shia of Al Maliki’s government. Which includes The Sadr Gang and SCIIRI of the Mehdi Army, BADR Gang.
Can someone print a scorecard, cuz I sweah, you’ll make a FORTUNE just sorting it out.
Hmmmmm . . . now that I think of it, why haven’t the fuckin leading blogs posted a compilation ‘SCORECARD’ type of item, as an explanation of things in general to EDUCATE the stupid masses in a more EFFICIENT fashion?
Think I’ll go post that at every blog I know.
This is the kind of tool progressives should have at the desktop so as to MUCH more quickly define, redefine, and interpret right wing and MSM info, and then RESPOND TO, in a mightily rightous fashion, calling each and every MSM fuckup in the news for what it is.
Shame the FUCK out of them.
Out of the DEM’S too, ignorant phools they are.
Call our Congress Krits on it, every time.
Take this OUT of the hands of those with THINGS TO LOSE, and put it into the hands of the masses. Let THEIR rage speak . . . empower them.
Harumph.
dubhaltach @ 106
Is man inheritantly good or is he inheritantly evil? Are all men good are all men bad. I think are troops are good men in a bad situation which is changing them not in a good way. I believe in hope and redemeption I am trying to change things thats why I’m here. What motivates you if you don’t believe in people.
Our elected official maybe fearing the war’s aftermath and how we are going to come off looking to the rest of the world when the accounting begins in Iraq. The country better be ready to deal with that. The bad things that has happened in Iraq is our name may be an incentive in the eyes of elected officials to keep this war going.
This is what one of the Irakis who has to live in the hellhole America deliberately and cyncially made of his country posted on our site the other day:
Eureka Springs @ 9
Arrested my butt, ‘most’ (don’t spew at me if you were 1% of those activists actually still doing something) of us for 3 decades were sleeping and trying to make money and get over being poor in the rebellious 60’s . . . and we paid the price, HUGE, for that.
We shoulda stuck to being poor and angry and rightous. OR run for political positions.
brkily @ 113
Dialed the number, main switchboard is closed. I don’t think it would be OPEN on a Sunday.
What else do you know, about this?
How does one acces a ‘daily poll’ on off hours?
Larue … please learn a bit more about the situation. You’re making inaccurate generalizations about Shia and Sunni for example.
I’d suggest you read some of the background pieces at GorillasGuides as a good place to start.
spurious @ 91
I thought the same thing until I looked it up. There is nothing in the Constitution preventing it. I don’t know if there is a hard legal block to doing it. The feeling is it is a bad idea and that the President should be given executive immunity but not absolute immunity. The V.P is fair game. Spiro Agnew was the last who was indicted for bribery and resigned and then pleaded no contest.
Things come undone I am utterly uninterested in what you believe and I have considerably less than zero intention of helping you dodge the issue.
I am uninterested in the fact that you believe your troops are good men. I am interested in what they do and what they do is active savage barbaric racist murder.
The fact that you are sitting in comfort asking me to help you m*st*rb*t* your ego by engaging in an utterly irrelevant debate is one of the reasons why civilised people want to spit whenever we think of the word “American.”
Siun I got a mail from dad - he says “hi.”
He wrote describing a chat he had with one of his hosts about the likelihood of America attacking Iran. They all hope you do it because it will give them the chance they need to cut off and kill the 180,000 troops you have in Irak.
His final sentence was chilling:
” ‘Good.’ Said Abbas, lovingly sharpening his blade.”
Larue - please change your tone here this evening. You are insulting people with no cause except perhaps your own discomfort with your lack of “wakefulness.”
Many of us - including Eureka Springs - did pay attention and did work hard to stop this war from ever being launched.
And you need some serious study about Iraq.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 27
I never knew I had a twin . . . *G*
I’m SO with ya hoss . . . thanks for sayin what has to be said, every now and then . . .
Call them on the carpet, from the streets. *G*
NONVIOLENTLY!!! Of course. Boycotts, labor stoppages.
Du - thank you for the greeting from your Dad. I wish him safe travels and hosts with ice!
We here in the States are so removed - both through our media and perhaps more importantly through our own desire to hide our eyes - from the reality of Iraq. When you read something like the piece in the Nation where these soldiers recount their own experiences, we need to realize that “our boys” have been barbaric. We need to look hard - as someone like Chris Hedges did in his book War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning to understand how very close we all are to barbarism … rather than continue to blame others for our lack of will and morality.
larue @ 124
Tax strikes.
Siun @ 120
Actually, I think I have a pretty good grip on the Sunni/Shia thing.
I also think, AttaTurk was on it.
Wanna talk about where you see my ‘failings’ are at?
I’d love to, and I can ALWAYS either ’splain more, or accept I was wrong . . . but without specifics, about MY generalizations, then we are all hot air. *G*
We can dance in here, or by email if you care to follow up with your initial critique of my original posits as posted . . . your call. Or, we can ignore it all . . . again, your call.
I’ll stand by what I write, every time. When proven wrong, I’m the most humble human on the planet, and will say so.
Thanks for taking me to task . . . without saying what for.
And I DO respect all I’ve seen YOU write.
I gotta admit, as long as I’ve SEEN you write, this is the first time you’ve called someone out, like you did, without posting the details.
Why?
Dubhaltach ask your friend who he would rather see strung up some low level solder who was a pawn or President Bush?
Forgivness begins when you admit that you did something wrong which is what I thought the American was in a detatched way doing when he made the statment about Iraqis. Detached unemotional protecting himself by removing the parts that feel but still telling the truth. Thats why I still have hope for him.
President Bush on the other hand is a happy Rah Rah Cheerleader for the war still telling lies about Iraq having ties to Al Queida. He has not admitted that he has done anything wrong. He cannot be forgiven until he admits he was wrong because until he does he could do it again.
Dubhaltach ask your Iraqi friend who deserves punishment more the crook who knows he did wrong. Or the crook who thinks it was funny.
spurious @ 17
Bullshit, there was an ARMY of progressives claiming madman soon after the pilfering of the first election, and soon after the 911 action engineering.
Pure bullshit to call it any other way.
All the evidence was there, and many called it for what it was. There’s NO calling ‘I DIDN’T KNOW’ at this point, not back to 2000.
Bullshit. You rolled over. Admit it, and get back on the wagon for the fight.
[Mod Note; until you tell us what you did to stop the madness, let’s take it down one big notch please.]
Loo Hoo. @ 30
LH got the fever! Right on!
We are SOOOO long past Sunday morning MSM analysis of who said what on the Teh Veh.
Even our OWN elected officials have deserted us, as we put them into the majority of Congress.
It’s time to rachet up the pressure, with bodies in the streets, and boycotts of products, and labor stoppages.
Harumph.
Larue …
Let’s begin with learning to spell Wahhabist (1 “h” is also acceptable)
Then we have your statement:
I’d suggest looking up which army is controlled by SIIC (the new name for SCIRI)
that’s a start …
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
No shit. Thank you.
It never ceases to amaze me, the responsibility for all of the really bad stuff in any war never (or rarely) rises above mid-level rank. I guess its a career track thing, and most of the general public either never pushes for greater accountability. As for those who start a war as we have, catching those greased pigs and bringing them to the BBQ of justice, thats another story.
Siun @ 123
I completely disagree with you about all of the above.
Where were you in 2000? What were your efforts?
Mine were personally waged, but on a few websites among people of like minds.
This country slept thru the takeover.
Harumph.
hackworth @ 33
Agreed. LH posts the stuff of leadership. And awareness of the crisis of the times, too.
Things come undone. What part of the fact that Irakis know the way to stop your country from killing them is to kill as many of your soldiers as possible preferably as agonisingly as possible are you incapable of understanding.
How you deal with the murderous barbarian who is there in front of you trying to kill you is to kill him first. Get used to it.
AFTER you have removed the proximate danger then you go after the big boys.
I’ll tell you what - after a member of your family has encountered a graduate of the Timothy McVeigh finishing school which is a good description of your army right now. I’ll pay your fare to Baghdad and you can ask them that question yourself.
Marretta @ 66
Yep.
And like fighting the Mafia, complete and total elimination is the only way to save one’s self.
So far, it’s a nation of sheep.
Things Come Undone - have your ever read the Chris Hedges book about War? I found it a very powerful lesson … and one that makes what Du is reporting to us from actual experience in Iraq and Afghanistan connect.
larue @ 134
Larue - you may have been “waging, but on a few websites among people of like minds” but some of us were in the streets and in fact have been there often for many many years.
mack @ 72
You seem to think we will be solvent after ClusterBuSh and co. are done.
Siun @ 138
I just wrote down the title I’ll check the bookstores but I am so behind where I want to be on my reading. Still got to read Mencius again.
In other words you sat around doing nothing with a bunch of equally ineffectual people and told yourselves how important and enlightened and oooooooh so dangerously radical you were.
Larue… You have every right to be pissed. Good and pissed. It is a fallacy that the dems will leave Iraq. At least the dems we have now. Impeach them, elect them, they will not abandon the embassy or the mega bases…. they will do the oil thing and the protection of Israel thing just the same bushco.
And if you want to start comparing who did what when in which streets and how often, well, I think that’s so judgemental. Larue is “in the streets” practically every day over at one of his “like minds” site.
Turns out “like minds” can be the topic of the music site, but you can find yourself of very very un-like minds when it come to bushco and the war and politics. Going head to head with wingnuts and getting the information out to the 26%ers on an almost daily basis is not an easy audience. I find it hilarious Larue finds himself being called out on spelling on FDL. That’s such a winger tactic, at least that’s been my experience with them.
Larue knows his stuff just fine. I still don’t know, and I think the military prolly agree, who the actual enemy is on any given day. Its kinda been the problem from the git go. Shapeshifters.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 35
Well said. Thank you.
no one is going to make a fortune on that analysis. i’m not going to bother educating you on all your garbled make believe but for starters you may want to check out this ‘05 piece titles Badr vs. Sadr
SCIIRI of the Mehdi Army???? whadeva. anyone following any detail at all knows this.
sorry, my last post was for larue #114. i suggest you read the whole link. like i mentioned earlier, you post has too many inaccuracies for you to give you a 101 lesson here. you are totally off the mark. totally.
ps larue, you may want to follow missing links (one of several good sites) for a few months, including all the archives, then you may be qualified to post about these issues you clearly know nothing about.
The debate here is getting a little arcane, but at LEAST it’s happening. And it needs to.
What’s going on in Iraq is simply that bush doesn’t have a clue about how to “stabilize” the place.
He’s trying to placate all the factions, one week, and then playing them off against each other, the next. Note to Siun, and Annie, and anyone else. SCIRI’s name-change was a PR sop. It’s the same (Mostly) Badr Bunch. Calling themselves the “Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq” was getting them some bad press. The fact that they WOULD change it shows the distance between themselves and SADR.
Lately, Al Hakim has been sucking up to bushCo like it was his mother’s breast. Are you guys looking for Sadr to do this? Don’t hold your breath.
Now that practically every one of the remaining 5500 Brits are behind the wire at the Basra Airport (wise choice!) the various militias are jockeying for control of Basra, and for those big fields down there. The Iraqi “government” there, just like the part of it that’s hiding out in the green zone in Baghdad, won’t last a week, if they go against the wishes of the militias in Basra.
I’m not sure if bush wants to see a Saudi-dominated Iraq, but at this point, he probably would, if it would mean an end to the violence and to the insurgency.
Of course, that’s a total fantasy. The Shiites are going to control the biggest reserves in Iraq (those around Basra) and the Kurds will eventually control most of the ones around Kirkuk.
In fact, that referendum to decide if Kirkuk is annexed to the Kurdish area to the north, is bearing down on bush like a runaway locomotive.
The Turks don’t want to see Kirkuk formally go to the Kurds, and neither does Maliki. For that matter, neither does bush. But the Kurds have a hell of a hammer there, and I don’t know what junior can offer them to not swing it, to postpone the constitutionally mandated vote by the end of this year.
Whatever. Push is coming to shove, and we just need to keep the pressure on bush, and the democrats, and watch the republican rats as they jitterbug around the gangplank.
Alecia-with-an’”e”:
Excuse me for asking: Are you from Louisiana?”
I’m almost certain not, but I had to ask.
tanbark,
i just read this update from Ali al-Fadhily sent to me from dahr jamail
frightening.
worth reading the whole thing. the upshot.. i don’t think the neocon goal is to stabalize iraq, i think it is to make sure iraq is divided along sectarian lines and regions. sure, they would like to stabalize for this outcome but if push comes to shove they will chose instability over not getting there way. why? to more easily access the oil. divide and conquer and all that.
sorry, that came out wrong. sorry, your remark was supposed to be quoted, not my response. [Mod: fixed]
annie @ 147
Annie, I suggest you read the article Larue referenced from the Sunday LA Times via Rising Hegemon prior to your complete dismissal of another poster.
We (Tanbark, Larue, and I) have talked about the Saudi connection many times and to see this on LA Times page A1 is worth some discussion relating to the topic of this string.
I had watched Siun’s posted video link via a link on aw.com prior to my FDL visit and I was glad to see it posted here and the discussion as well.
I don’t think its very FDLish of Siun or yourself to be quite so rude to Larue for having his say. That parental style dismissal is really pretty much what we’ve experienced from the rightards for years now. I’m really quite surprised by it from FDLers.
I’ve been at a conference in Seattle for a week so I’m kinda taken aback to see this on my “catch up” tour of my favorite blogs.
How did the Americans got into this?
The same way they always do: they don’t know, and they don’t care. It’s lack of knowledge of their own recent history. USA has interfered foreign countries issues all over the globe, continuosly, so that their big corporations could use and steal foreign countries’ resources. USA’s prime doctrine is to reach global hegemony, and club down every possible adversary. But Americans do not know, and they do not care. They do not see that it is their own country that creates problems and then steps in “to help”: the oldest excuse for war. Yes, Americans. You have been lied to. All the time. And it’s easy because you don’t care. Even now, you’re more worried about the 1,500 dead Americans than the 650,000 dead Iraqis and 4 million refugees. If there wouldn’t be hundreds of dead Americans, Iraq wouldn’t even be an issue!
Who imported the fanatical mujaheddin fighters into Afghanistan? Who was preparing war against Afghanistan before 9/11? Why does Afghanistan now provide more drugs than ever? Who wanted the oil pipe through Afghanistan? Who made Saddam the leader? Who armed and supported Iraqi Shiites and Kurds civil war against Saddam? Who wanted the Iraqi oil? Who arranged regime change in Iran and supported a totalitarian dictator? Who financed and supported Saddam’s attack into Iran? Who wanted the Iranian oil? What kind of a country Saudi Arabia is, and how does it stay that way? Who wants Saudi oil? Do you know? Do you care?
The infant death rate has risen 150% from 2003 to 2005 in Iraq. Every 8th Iraqi child of under 5 years old died 2005. Probably dies each year. Majority of the additional deaths (91.8 percent) was caused by violence. You should care.
Myrtle June - Larue posted at #114 a lengthy and completely inaccurate description of the situation in Iraq including major mistakes about alliances, significant misspellings, and berating “the fucking leading blogs” for not publishing a “scorecard” based on his rather incoherent and misinformed comments:
He followed this almost immediately with rude comments to Eureka Springs @118 and a nasty message to Brkily @119 who helpfully had asked for calls to Congress on impeachment.
And he finished off his visit with the following:
Now Larue and you may think that efforts “waged … on a few websites among people of like minds” is awesome activism and you are welcome to your opinion but that does not grant Larue the right to insult others here, especially those who took their activism beyond “a few websites among people of like minds.”
You seem to pick up the same m.o. as Larue by being snotty to annie who is one of the most knowledgeable people I know on the issues being discussed and who had offered a particularly good link to help Larue learn a bit about Iraq, something he clearly needs.
Attacking commenters when you yourself have not a clue is a bad idea. Ask questions, disagree, discuss … but insulting other commenters with no provocation is guaranteed to get a response … and that is “FDLish”.
If you’d care to take this further, feel free to email me at the address on the Firedoglake About page.
My next response however is likely to simply be the following:
“what Dubhaltach said” (142)
MyrtleJune is right. The Saudis have said openly that if bush withdraws, they will support the Sunni minority there with whatever it takes, to keep them from being hammered by the Shiites, or even just marginalized.
In point of fact, they have BEEN supporting the insurgents who are attacking our troops, and killing the Shiites, in the bloody tit-for-tat.. They’re doing it under the table, by using the same “charities” which Bin Laden used to collect funds and to move them around.
I’m not putting this up as some kind wingnuttery to justify bombing Riyadh or Mecca. I’m doing it to to point out just how fucked we are there. There is simply NOT going to be a happy ending to Operation Enduring Shitmire. Not even close. And so far, not one democratic candidate that I’ve heard, has had the courage to say that.
I don’t even recall seeing that little piece of reality put up on here. And it damn sure has to inform the debate about what direction those of us with the room-temperature I.Q.’s required to know it, want to take, as we try to get our troops home, and as we hope to salvage something out of this loon-crusade. I dare ANYONE on here to set up Clinton, or Edwards, or Obama for an “interview” and to let us have at them with things like:
“Well, Mr./Ms. Candidate; when our troops leave, do you think that the Shiites controlling those Basra fields will feel closer to whatever government we leave behind in Baghdad, or to their fellow Shia in Iran?”
“How long do you think the Maliki “government” will last without our troops there to prop them up? And when it starts to collapse, what do we do?”
“Do you think that if the referendum on who controls Kirkuk is held this year, as mandated by the Iraqi Constitution, that the Kurds will win it? And if you do, what can be done to placate the turks?”
This is just a smattering of the reality-questions that need to be asked of ANY candidate who implies in any way, shape, or or form, that he or she has a plan.
We need to nail them on this, and we need to nail them about their support for a fixed withdrawal date. If none of them want to go that far, then shit on them.
What’s Wes Clarke’s phone number?
Siun,
I simply ask Annie to read what Larue was referring to. If you take that as being rude then ….. well, there’s nothing I can do about your sensitivites.
I read Larue’s post and the background article. I see where he’s coming from. I see where you’re coming from with the Guardian vid, which I also watched.
I think Larue, over all, on here has been pretty pointed, as it should be. Annie and you too. I have no problem with that. I’ve been pointed as well. We’re all on the same side remember?
If you want to be rude to me, I have no problem with that. People are becoming frustrated, with good reason in my estimation. I don’t see the need for any litmus tests or judgements made on who did what when. If two people want to take issue with each other, fine. If you’re going to dogpile anyone, I’m not going to stand back and watch.
If you want to spell check everyone’s posts, fine. If you want to single people out for spelling, well…. I already addressed that. Larue is quite capable of speaking for himself and is quite fair and gracious in his ways.
I only speak for me.
So aside from spelling, and insulting one’s intelligence and reading comprehension, what exactly is your issue with Larue’s post?
I think that is called having a discussion which is, after all, what we’re here for. Isn’t it?
Larue’s points were ignorant in every sense of the word. It is perfectly obvious that he, she, (or perhaps it) has not the faintest idea what he, she, (or perhaps it) is talking about.
That sort of garbage thinking is why your country is already well into genocide territory in terms of Iraki civilians murdered by your country.
As to the questions posed by your friend Tanbark. Here’s the answer that my Iraki friends and colleagues give to that sort of self-absorbed American nonsense.
It is none of your damned business Amreekan what we do to your puppets who helped you commit your crimes. We will deal with them as we see fit under our laws not yours.
It is none of your damned business Amreekan how we feel or how we make deals with Iran and Iranians.
How we deal with the Kurds and what sort of deal we make with them is none of your damned business Amreekan.
You can discuss - futilely and impotently, and in LaRue’s case also ignorantly, all you want.
Because nothing you do or say will alter one simple fact.
Your country has lost its war against the people of Irak and it is not for losers to dictate the terms. Your best efforts were neither good enough to stop your country starting its war and they haven’t been good enough to end it. The people whose efforts are making your country whipmper in pain are the efforts of the Irakis busy kicking the hell out of your army of occupation and incidentally bankrupting you while they’re at it.
Get used to it.