I believe that America is great, and my belief is not reflexive. This is a great country because we can change all this crap.

like admitting that AMERICA, the shining light, may not be that bright.. instead of seeing reality and working to make it better, they scream bloody murder, and scream move to france

i think it’s similar to people who always talk about a divine jesus… i think that a human jesus is a much more inspiring and interesting figure… but then, i’m not christian…

A wonderful post, and dead-on correct.

The Moyers’ piece was drop dead interesting, exciting, passionate, and informative. Both guests pro-impeachment because of overreaching, secrecy, torture, etc. Real condemnation for the passivity of the congress for no oversight and letting it slide. Criticism of the Pelosi “off the table” claim because it can’t be off the table; it’s in the Constitution. In part they advocate impeachment in order not to pass on the expanded powers to another Pres. They think some of the lack of oversight is not understanding the power to the Constitution: lacking the understanding of it and history and lacking the conviction to take these people/Admin. on. Also the view that “we” the people are way ahead and want a push back on the extra-legal, imperial, law into self actions of the Admin. That impeachment should be against both W & Cheney. A wonderful program if you can see it in your area.

I used to be against impeaching Bush/Cheney because of all that the country is going through, and felt that democrats would lose the gains they have made in the confidence of the people by persuing impeachment proceedings but this program opened my mind big time. Putting impeachment in its historical context as a useful constitutional tool cleanses it from the dirty name it got from Nixon and Clinton. I’m all for it now as a check on power tool for the current administration and more importantly for future administrations. The case that Bush’s abuses of power will set a precedent for the way future presidents use the office really struck a chord with me. Boy, a little constitutional history goes a long way in understanding our rights as citizens and how we are letting them slip away little by little. The voices of the founding fathers that were brought center stage in Moyer’s program spoke volumes tonight. Firedoglake needs to get the video of this program up for everybody to review and consider to the point of number one priority of progressive activity in the immediate future.

Kathryn in MA @ 91

“the fall of the roman empire did not come from bad leaders or a bad congress but because the people started acting like subjects.”

So in the same way when we moved from being citizens to consumers, we were well down the road to being subjects, of corporate own leaders.

Well, that was the Fall of Roman Republicanism…but the Empire actually had a few hundred more years before it collapsed. In fact, there was no “emperor” before Caesar crossed the Rubicon.

But as Franklin pointed out in the Constitutional debates in Philadelphia “impeachment” actually protects those who would be tyrants from losing their heads (in more than one way).

bonkers @ 152

If the people lead, the leaders will follow, or so I’ve been told.

Our leaders must be slow learners.

Someone needs to remind the Democrats that Dubya’s approval rating isn’t 90% anymore…

Trouble is the Senate Republicans didn’t get the memo. We have to break their will, so we can govern better. Since their bottom line is getting re-elected we have to get the public to convince them they’ll lose their jobs if they don’t cooperate with the Democratic leadership.

The one complaint I had about Moyer’s show tonight was that they didn’t differentiate between the Democratic activities and the Republican obstreperous obstructionism.

Once we show the public the Senate Repubs are blocking progress, then things ought to get better.

Eli @ 124

I actually wanted to tie Imaginary & Real America in with John Edwards’ Two Americas, …

I think there is a connection. There’s the ideal and hope and there’s the reality, both Constitutionally and in the Economic states Edwards refers to.

Somehow we have to find a way to live up to the Ideal and it’s the duty of leaders to present the Ideal and the Reality to remind us we’re not there yet, but we can get there if we focus our efforts together. I hope that whomever the Democrats nominate next is a real leader. We can’t afford a sham or someone destructive.

I was thinking more in terms of that the wealthy are the ones actually living *in* Imaginary America, where everything is lined up for their convenience.

Karin @ 119

Great post, Eli. There have always been 2 Americas-the real one, flawed but with great potential, and the imaginary one that is a metaphor for freedom & justice & all that good stuff. …

I actually wanted to tie Imaginary & Real America in with John Edwards’ Two Americas, …

I think there is a connection. There’s the ideal and hope and there’s the reality, both Constitutionally and in the Economic states Edwards refers to.

Somehow we have to find a way to live up to the Ideal and it’s the duty of leaders to present the Ideal and the Reality to remind us we’re not there yet, but we can get there if we focus our efforts together. I hope that whomever the Democrats nominate next is a real leader. We can’t afford a sham or someone destructive.