Earlier this week news broke of a new investigation into “possible military crimes” committed in Fallujah in 2004 by US Marines. This is the third such investigation of squadrons from Camp Pendleton and the story is getting considerable coverage around the world … and even a tiny mention on Faux News. The Marines, during a battle in Fallujah, took between 5 and 10 “unarmed suspected Iraqi insurgents” prisoner, held them in an abandoned building, and then – when given orders to move out:
The Marine in charge radioed headquarters for instructions about what to do with the suspected insurgents. The laconic response – “They’re still alive?” – came back on the radio.
The leader took it to mean kill the Iraqis, Weemer said. Moments later the squad was ordered to move on. Guns were aimed, triggers were pulled, and the Iraqis died. The bodies were left where they lay.
One of the Marines in question apparently confessed recently to being “a party to an unlawful death” while taking a polygraph for a Secret Service job – and that led to the current NCIS investigation. But the same Marine had discussed the events in Fallujah earlier with a military “journalist” – Nat Helms – who reports that he “advised the penitent Marine to keep his mouth shut.”
But such shootings are a war crime:
David Glazier, who teaches the law of war at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, said it is a war crime to kill captives that do not pose an immediate threat unless they are escaping. Someone who has been taken into custody, they become protected under the law of war, no matter how egregiously they have behaved,” Glazier said. “They can only be shot subject to the sentence of a validly conducted trial.”
Helms disagrees – and in fact claims that:
If the alleged shootings had happened a few days later there might not have been an investigation. Two days after the alleged incident the ROE at Fallujah was “liberalized” to allow fleeing Iraqis to be killed if they refused to stop. It was only the beginning. By the end of the fight the rules for killing insurgents were extremely liberal, Marines who were there agree. Fallujah gave a whole new meaning to the word, one of them said.
Marines openly admit killing every military age male they saw at Fallujah. They used everything in the Marine Corps arsenal to do it; Javelins, TOWs, red phosphorous, white phosphorus, good ol Ma Deuce, and super-futuristic thermobaric warheads that ignite the air. (emphasis added, there is no mention of the prisoners attempting escape.)
Helms’ goes on to claim the investigation by NCIS and the prosecution of such war crimes is “the newest turn of events in political correctness.”
Coverage of Helms’ article is the lead feature on page one of the Marine Corps Times along with a link to the web site where he first published, WarChronicle – a site deeply involved in organizing a defense fund for the Haditha Marines and featuring links to such moral authorities as Michelle Malkin.
Sadly, I’m no longer shocked to learn that Marines allegedly killed unarmed prisoners – there have been too many such reports during the course of this occupation. But the apparently supportive coverage of Helms’ account and the linkage to sites which absolve the commission of war crimes … by the quasi-official paper of the Marine Corps … that still shocks.



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zunoed?
A little burp by the toobz there, huh?
Siun!!!
hello … did we burb?
just ran in the door
Our leaders have no moral compass, why should we expect the troops to be stronger than the leaders?
This doesn’t surprise me, Siun. Sadly.
If you try to talk to many Air Force or Marine personnel about the use of white phosphorus as a stand-in for napalm, they either won’t listen or will hide behind nitpickery: “They weren’t napalmed, they were hit with WP! Learn what you’re talking about or no one will take you seriously!” As if being hit with WP was somehow less nasty than napalm, though in many cases the end result is much worse.
Sounds like Helms thinks the Geneva Conventions are ‘quaint’, too.
I think we may not be able to rely on our military for a long, long time. It’s going to have to be cleaned out and rebuilt from both ends.
Do they still believe that they’re protecting and serving the Constitution and the laws, or is it all for the President in their minds?
Phoenix Woman @ 6
Yea, well we are going to have all this hand wringing over shooting civilians like it’s better when we, or them for that matter, use all kinds of other kinds of shit to kill people.
Yep PW … sadly, no one in Congress seems to worry about oversight on our use of chemical weapons.
Raven – at the same time, the outright execution of unarmed Iraqis in custody … will be blamed again on “a few bad apples” rather than on the “leadership” that condones or blinks at such war crimes.
How many other episodes like this just haven’t come to light?
And shelling/bombing neighborhoods in an occupied country, that, too, is a war crime.
Siun!
thanks – as always – for making me look. just can’t pretend it’s not happening.
This is absolutely horrible. We have got to get these kids out of there.
Worries me though, that a while back I remember reading about white supremacy graffiti been seen in Baghdad. Do we have the airforce half full of christianistas and the marines partly gangsters?
Is that what we have resorted to recruiting?
Siun, As a twenty-yr Vet, I found this to be most disturbing; “Two days after the alleged incident the ROE at Fallujah was ‘liberalized’ to allow fleeing Iraqis to be killed if they refused to stop!” ROE’s are ROE’s!!! You don’t alter the rules in the middle of the game! The ROE is expressly inculcated, early and often! That, in itself, is a war crime!!!
The Marines who pulled the triggers are probably the least guilty of war crimes; they will get nailed and Bush/Cheney, the Senior Military and all of the smart lawyers who said “it’s all OK” to commit war crimes, get away.
This behavior emanates from the top down. That is… from the example of the Commander in Chief. Look at what signals this man has sent to the troops over the last seven years. The problem is that for the Bush people there is murder, and then there is ‘murder’. Iraqis fall into the second group. These people are viewed as something less than human beings.
Phoenix Woman @ 6
Sounds like weapons of mass destruction to me. What happens to people who are the subjects of this?
Steve @ 15
Ask Ernest Medina and the rest of Calley’s chain of command.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
Find me a war (or other armed conflict) where the opposition is not dehumanized.
All of these soldiers and marines will at some point reenter life as civilians – how will they deal with killing Iraq civilians and unarmed insurgents? Will the violence come home with them and leak and seep into their lives? In every other war this happens, and I think they are going to have significant problems with this, as well.
Loo Hoo. @ 13
That does not justify the actions of these Marines.
N=1 @ 20
You bet they will. It may take years to manifest but it will come. Especially when they realize that they got suckered just like we did.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
Nope, there are plenty who didn’t do what they did.
Calling the Norske Flamethrower.
Phoenix Woman @ 6
Willie Pete is more lethal than Napalm, however, the kill radius is much reduced! WP can only be delivered in small ‘packages’, whereas, Napalm necessitates a much larger delivery system! Jez my $.02!!!
raven @ 23
that’s heartbreaking, knowing so many are coming home so profoundly changed.
and for what!
The President is a liar, a coward, a braggart and a killer. He is accountable.
CTuttle @ 26
Willie Peter make you a believer.
I just recently read some info about the soldier who raped the 14 yo girl, killed her and the family and is going on trial. He and his unit had been in combat for more than a year, had taken lots of casualties and most were suffering from PTSD. This particular soldier was known to be a threat to civilians and yet he was placed on psycho-active drugs and sent back into combat. Who ever sent him back should also be on trial for murder..will never happen.
Ah, the moral cowardice of the passive voice:
that’s heartbreaking, knowing so many are coming home so profoundly changed.
and for what!
That’s always been one of my favorites, “he was so different when he came home”. What kind of person would go to this shit and be the same?
raven @ 29
I saw the Light!!! *g*
Steve @ 30
Weren’t they drunk on “haji juice” too?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 28
In other times, every American realized such things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C…..onsibility
CTuttle @ 33
arc light huh?
siun, as you know, nothing shocks my soul when it come to war………..
what has been lost?
poets, artists, philosophers, educators, teachers, historians……all of their teachings and thougts and art,,,lost forever…..people…….living……noone is living there anymore…..they are surviving by bare knuckles…….not living……an entire culture stifled…….and lost……..and we all sit by………
every morning when i wake up and look outside at my deck in the treetops, i think of them…….every time i turn on my a/c i think of them……every time i get into my car and run errands, and drive freely down the highway, i think of them…we have so many few people here where i live, i think , we could take many thousands of immigrants from iraq and never feel it………every time i eat fresh foods and they are not, i think of them………
everytime i see siun in a thread i think of them……..
These “suspected unsurgents” were quite obviously savages.
raven @ 34
True! And, Greenwell should never have been sent to Iraq!!! The bar has been set abysmally low for the new recruits!!! It is sickening to see what Shrub’s Maladministration has done to every single entity within our Government!!! 8-(
LooHoo – White Phosphorous – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus
The Pentagon denied using it … the confessed to using it in Fallujah.
The results on human beings is described by soldiers as “shake and bake”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 38
Michael Savages?
raven @ 36
Chemical, not Electrical!!! :P
CTuttle @ 39
Easy, I was one of those 1%’rs. Judge gave me my choice on my 17th birthday, the hooscow of the green machine. Some of us turned out ok (even if it took 30 years or so).
CTuttle @ 42
Arc Light
This whole military action was illegal from the get-go. By definition, that means no rules. When the horror of that lie becomes all the more apparent, what about the rage in our citizens here and those who have fought or died or suffered loss. Let the word go out: we are fighting and killing for nothing legitimate…whatever else it is. I wonder about all the Support the Troops talk; most of the crap here is not their fault. But from Abu G. on we have seen way too much lawlessness. OT: At the Impeach meeting over the weekend, there was a large opinion that the Dems. will not act vigorously to stop all this stuff, because, as has been noted, they are drinking from the same water. That really serious action/demonstrations/etc. will have to come from us, we the people, to get any attention and action. This sort of horror story, killing civilians on, has pervaded the history of this mess we have instigated.
I support the Speaker, but I love Ms. Sheehan.
AP – Cindy Sheehan, the soldier’s mother who galvanized the anti-war movement, said Sunday that she plans to seek House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s congressional seat unless she introduces articles of impeachment against President Bush in the next two weeks.
Siun @ 40
I’m just as concerned about the use of ‘Cluster Bombs’, fortunately, we’re not laying any land mines, yet, cluster bomblets have the same pernicious results!!!
raven @ 19
At the risk of sounding as if I am defending this war or the war criminals who are running it –
In war, it is a necessary component to dehumanize the enemy. War is bad, and this is one of the reasons why. But war without dehumanization is an impossibility, which may have been the point raven was making.
The problem is that in this particular war there is no clearly identified enemy. This leaves us with a situation in which there is no distinction between those who are dehuminized and those who are to be protected.
Seen in this light, hell, yes, the problem flows from the top to the bottom of the war effort.
The most disgusting and dispiriting aspect of this war is that days before we went into Iraq, President Shit-for-brains did not know that there were such things as Shiites and Sunnis. How can we expect that G.I. grunts can distinguish between good guys and bad guys?
CTuttle @ 14
You do if the people calling the shots grew up in the generation indoctrinated by the Reagan Republicans.
The lid may come off with this one
Charles Pierce at Media Matters talking about Iran Contra and today’s mess…
Tell me we’re not paying for that now. Tell me we’re not paying for tolerating a renegade theory of Executive power. Tell me we’re not hearing how inconvenient and cumbersome and counterproductive the impeachment process of the Constitution is. Tell me the Democratic candidates aren’t soft-pedaling the whole issue, preferring to micromanage the end of the kind of war that the renegade theory of Executive power makes not only likely, but inevitable. (Go back and read the minority report of the Iran-Contra committee. Go see who wrote the part about how the president has an inherent right to do stuff like this. Hint — he has a lesbian daughter, a bad heart, and lousy aim.) Tell me the press isn’t running away from the gravity of the whole business. Tell me you haven’t heard some anchor-drone or another sigh about how hard it all is to understand. Tell me that Bush presidencies don’t invariably come down to buying the silence of the people who can put you away. Tell me Alberto Gonzales isn’t Edwin Meese, except less competent. Tell me that Elliott Abrams, John Negroponte, Michael Ledeen, and the rest of the Iran-Contra Legends Tour ever would have found their bloody hands back on the levers of government if we’d done what we should have done as a nation 20 years ago. Jesus, even Ghorbanifar’s back in the news.
That said, what happened with Scooter Libby this week didn’t surprise me at all, or even horrify me. I’ve seen this movie before.
http://mediamatters.org/altercation/200707060004#3
This is the best explanation why this time we have to say “never again” and hold the Dems accountable forever if they don’t prosecute Bush/Cheney et al for war crimes. If, by some miracle, this country escapes this time; and we don’t prosecute, the next time will be the end of our Constitutional Democracy.
Big Mitch @ 48
That was my point.
dmac @ 37
same here. just about every meal i eat, i’m painfully aware that i have clean water to prepare the food and they don’t, plenty of delicious fresh food and they don’t, a beautiful place to sit and eat that’s also a safe place to eat. it breaks my heart.
and fallujah breaks my heart more than anything. when the u.s. was sealing off fallujah i was in a huge state of agitation. they burned those people to death with white phosphorus, shot at ambulances. the whole thing was, and is, for me, the most horrible of all this horrible atrocity that is pnac spewing forth its ugly death head.
CTuttle @ 47
But we block anti-landmine treaties
And there are laws about those (that we ignore).
dmac @ 37
I know just what you mean.
I think we have to understand that these acts are not aberrations but are at the heart of our occupation of Iraq. We’re not seeing “a few bad apples” … just look at the Marine Corps Times … did they express outrage that the honor of the Marine’s was dirtied by this war crime? Nope, they linked to a guy who thinks war crimes are just another fetish of the politically correct crowd.
These are not just “white supremecists” or “gangsters” … these are american kids following american orders and it’s a mistake if we fall into the same “just a few bad apples” way of thinking used by this administration to excuse its crimes.
The problem is that in this particular war there is no clearly identified enemy. This leaves us with a situation in which there is no distinction between those who are dehuminized and those who are to be protected.
We’ve been hearing this so much lately. I know that the NVA and VC were more traditional forces but the “no clearly defined enemy” situation was very much the case in Vietnam.
bhatten @ 45
Hopefully there will be impeachment caucuses at Yearly Kos. I think that by now on-line petitions have lost their fire.
Maybe they/we can’t tell the good guys from the bad guys, and no wonder. Doesn’t it seem that we are looking an awful lot like bad guys.
Siun @ 40
Willie Pete burns through the skin and continues to burn no matter what. We used WP rounds for illumination and the grenadiers carried them as part of their M-79 rounds.
WP is horrible, horrible stuff because you can’t snuff it out.
Napalm laid down by an airstrike takes all the oxygen outta the air….if the stirke was large enough it basically took every bit of air out of the surroundings and burned your throat. I can’t imagine what it was like to be covered in it but I saw many bodies contorted in horrific poses after some strikes.
and fallujah breaks my heart more than anything. when the u.s. was sealing off fallujah i was in a huge state of agitation. they burned those people to death with white phosphorus, shot at ambulances. the whole thing was, and is, for me, the most horrible of all this horrible atrocity that is pnac spewing forth its ugly death head.
Read “No True Glory”. The Marine command did not want an all out assualt but the brain trust in DC insisted. When civilian casualties started to cause PR problems they made the Marines stand down in favor of an Iraqi force. They totally fucked up and then the Marines had to go back and take the same stuff again. This does not make for happy troops.
It is wrong to put a bullet into the back of the head of an unarmed human being during an occupation. The Iraq adventure is not a war. It is an occupation.
“Cindy Sheehan, the soldier’s mother who galvanized the anti-war movement, said Sunday that she plans to seek House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s congressional seat unless she introduces articles of impeachment against President Bush in the next two weeks.”
I hope this is a joke.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 62
Yes it is and there is an illegitimate Iraqi government in place to absolve the USG of its crimes.
raven @ 44
What was the main payload? Napalm, WP, conventional HE…???
james @ 60
welcome home bro
Steve @ 51
I agree, it’s a must read! We can’t forget.
raven @ 52
You can always count on me to take a point, expressed in a dozen words to turn it into five paragraphs. :-)
The military in the field are responsible – under both US and international law – to protect civilians. There’s no exemption for “gosh, they all look alike to me” …
Fallujah today
CTuttle @ 65
I’m pretty sure 52’s were mostly HE but there may be folks here nbetter equipped to comment.
Steve @ 51
Which is why we should (along with a lot of other things) be revisiting certain long ago bygones. As long as Reagan is still popularly considered to be anything better than the despicable liar, opportunist, rascist and cheater that he was, we’ll be battling for progress.
Hell, as long as there are people who think Goldwater’s policies were anything but suicidal delusion, we’ve got problems.
Conservatism is as dead as Stalinist Communism. Pass it on.
James – thank you. That must be a very hard memory to live with so I am grateful that you would share it with us.
Big Mitch @ 68
Actually I really appreciated the expansion.
Steve at 51. Wow. They can’t just ride out the clock unpunished.
GordonM @ 54
There are laws about them, and it is alleged that we violate them by supporting Israel, which used them in civilian areas. I do not know the merits of these allegations.
GordonM @ 54
As a former Combat Engineer Squad Leader, I concur with you 100%!!! 8-)
raven @ 66
Yeah, but what have they done to the place????
Aite ya’ll. Early Atlanta Airport run. Keep up the fire (dogs).
Siun @ 56
You’re right.
greenwarrior at 53 says:
“same here. just about every meal i eat, i’m painfully aware that i have clean water to prepare the food and they don’t, plenty of delicious fresh food and they don’t, a beautiful place to sit and eat that’s also a safe place to eat. it breaks my heart.
and fallujah breaks my heart more than anything. when the u.s. was sealing off fallujah i was in a huge state of agitation. they burned those people to death with white phosphorus, shot at ambulances. the whole thing was, and is, for me, the most horrible of all this horrible atrocity that is pnac spewing forth its ugly death head.”
yep, you put it better than i did………
james @ 77
We’ll, judging from your history they did it to us a long ass time ago.
james @ 60
WP burns underwater! To lend a little more perspective!!!
raven @ 70
Arc Lights strikes left huge, huge craters, and shook the ground for miles around. From bomb damage assessments I was on the payload was HE, massive amounts of HE. The tell-tale petrol smell of napalm wasn’t there and the ground wasn’t normally scorched.
There also weren’t many human remnants left.
And how many similar incidents have happened which we will never hear or read about?
The damage done is reaching a point that is incalculable. Many of us were saying this in the run-up to the war, but the cowards in Congress instead of challenging the war frenzy were more interested in keeping their seats, perks and access.
How many more Marines and Soldiers will suffer the after-effects of this misbegotten adventure for the rest of this century?
You can bet your bottom dollar that none of them who are convicted of anything (EXCEPT murder) will get a “Libby” from Bunnypants any time soon, after all they are only the “little people” who went off to fight because they thought it was right.
Big Mitch – there’s a lot of documentation on that score. Read this article from The Jewish Daily Forward
raven @ 81
But it’s the “gift” that keeps on giving, ain’t it?
Cluster bombs:
Big Mitch @ 75
I don’t recall the exact numbers, but it’s something like 85% of the bomblets have to explode when they hit. The stuff we supplied to Israel, it’s more like 30%. This one is clear-cut. Targetting is a more difficult issue to prove.
boxer @ 63
Nope.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19665569/
raven @ 70
using c-47 and c-130 gun ships on missions over uncle Ho’s trail using flares to illuminate it. WP Wille Peter was for marking targets and suppression of ground fire by FAC’s see BAT !# for use.
Siun @ 56
Authoritarian governments required authoritarian soldiers. There is almost certainly a “Memo of Understanding” to this effect guiding our military.
This is hardly surprising, given the same shit goes down in Palestine every day.
raven @ 57
I was never “in country.” I understand that the VC could fade into the population and become invisible. But there was never a confusion about the basic fact — the VC were the enemy.
In the instant case, we decide to kill someone or blow up something. Then we give it a bullshit label — al Q in Iraq — is in vogue. But why the decision to kill or explode something is made, who the F knows?
Big Mitch @ 75
From what I’ve gleaned, Israel is being investigated for potential war crimes by the Hague for their use of cluster bombs!!!
David Glazier, who teaches the law of war at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, said it is a war crime to kill captives that do not pose an immediate threat unless they are escaping.
The laws of war do not apply to unlawful combatants.
thats BAT-13
I’ve been wondering when The Hague will start to investigate us? Or will W just say, Pardon me.
Steve @ 51
Thank you for this. It’s well thought out and well said.
Another account of Fallujah from last month: here
A day after Dulaimey posted, several people lost their lives standing in a line to re-new their ID badges….
(mod note: Link URL fixed)
bhatten @ 95
Well, he buys a huge chunk of property in Paraguay (?) which has never signed on to the ICC (per US pressure).
nabalzbffr @ 93
The term unlawful combatant is not found in ANY law books.
It is an invention of this criminal administration and its mindless robots who write memos authorizing illegal acts against people protected by the Geneva Conventions.
argosfalcon @ 90
I knew about the C-130’s, of which, SF still utilizes for aerial support, never heard about the Gooney Birds being utilized in similar fashion!!! Learn something new everyday, here at the Lake!!! 8-)
No USer soldier/marine will ever be convicted of a capital crime against an Iraqi in Iraq.
Nagahapun…
Wonder how things will be when Bibi Netanyahu comes back to power as head of the Israeli government.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
Oh God forbid!
Was anyone ever prosecuted for their actions during the “trail of tears”?
GordonM @ 98
ICC?
Kiddo, I think with that unpleasant thought in my mind I think I’ll turn in.
‘Night all. Sleep tight.
Loo Hoo. @ 89
My heart really goes out to her. I can’t imagine losing my own child. But what is the point of this? I know she feels that nothing she does makes a difference, but that’s not true. Many people have been moved by her story. However, if she tries to go through with this idea, most of her work will be undone.
Siun @ 40
It was bought, paid for, and used. It is a war crime by this Administration.
Calling John Yoo, to the (blood) Red Courtesy phone…John Yoo…
But the Geneva Conventions are quaint, or so its said. So at the the international inquest before the trial, who else gets indited along with him?
CTuttle @ 26
The argument when the use of white phosphorus first emerged was whether this was illegal under established treaties and therefore a war crime, or if it was used by troops for lighting targets; it was argued that WP wasn’t a chemical weapon for this reason, since it wasn’t used as a weapon per se.
BULLSH*T.
It was bullsh*t then, still is now. I had a strong suspicion then that there were “moles” trying to manipulate the story line as they did the CBS AWOL story with the kerning argument; the argument became CBS’ lack of fact checking the kerning than about the veracity of the claims that Bush went AWOL.
In this case, it’s not about WP being used as a weapon or lighting; they were used AGAINST civilians in an urban environment, making any application absolutely untenable.
Watch for this argument to emerge again to cloud the picture, and push back HARD when it does.
Loo Hoo. @ 105
International Criminal Court.
Paraguay (I think I have the right country) has very, very limited extradition treaties. Yeah, we had much to do with that.
(When the twins got in trouble in Argentina, they were down there to visit the property.)
from Juan Cole today:
Readers sometimes ask me if analyzing the news from Iraq every day doesn’t get me down.
It got me down today. Sunni Arab guerrillas, unable to operate as effectively in Baghdad because of the US troop surge, had a suicide bomber drive a truck loaded with explosives into a market in a village on the fringes of the northern city of Tuz Khurmato and detonate his payload. As I write, authorities had counted 130 dead bodies, many of them women and children, and relatives reported another 20 dead. Another 250 or so were wounded, some of them badly, according to the Arabic daily al-Hayat. The latter says Iraqis are referring to the bombing as “the Turkmen massacre.” Some 40 homes, 20 shops, and a dozen automobiles were also destroyed…
Juan Cole. July 8, 2007.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 101
I’m not so sure about that! Certainly, some Enlisted will do Leavenworth time, however, senior Leadership will elude Justice!!!
james @ 83
CTuttle @ 100
they the first “Puff the magic Dragons”, a few months ago did a nice piece about their roll in that mis-adventure in south east Asia.
bhatten @ 95
Hague will never happen and we don’t need it. There are enough US laws for us to start to clean up this mess and begin to regain some respect from Civilized countries. These fuckers think they have retroactively immunized themselves against war crime charges. After 01/20/09 indict them using 18 USC 2441 and let the courts decide. If the Roberts court lets them off..we have our answer..this country has gone over the cliff.
Re: WP. Subpoena the procurement records of the Pentagon…oh, wait…who’s in charge of procurement for DOD….not Lorna Doone. Or was it Safavian…? Someone handled this for DOD.
Somebody has purchase records. Some company made it and sold it to DOD. There has to be a paper trail out there somewhere.
Rayne @ 111
Amen, Rayne, Amen!!!
Loo Hoo. @ 106
International Criminal Court?
Re: Cindy Sheehan
I say: You Fucking GO! gurl!!!!
the pwogs are always saying that if you don’t think your rep is representing you, challenge ‘em.
Nancy Pelosi’s playing WAAAAAAY too cozy with that “off-the-table” shit.
Stick a thumb in her complacent eye…
.
I think it safe to say that Karl, Dick and George will never see the inside of a jail cell.
I hate it when my head out runs my hands, or brain:it Air Force magazine.
Rayne @ 111
DemocracyNow! had a segment in which they caught someone in the military admitting it had been used as a weapon. Sometime in the last year, but before March of this year.
argosfalcon @ 116
How about Somalia, a few months back??? Hmmm….
james @ 106
Breathe deep and
Sleep in peace James.
As to Cindy Sheehan: This woman has a lot more of something I wish I had more of. Courage.
To: Steve, 117: Thanks for the scenario. I hope you’re right. I guess I thought we ran off the cliff with the Rehnquist court in Bush/Gore. What a lovely irony if the Robert court would really come through. I am not betting on it, but the thought lifts my spirits.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 126
I like what Twain said (many times, in various ways): A courageous person is a coward who waits for two minutes when he wants to run away.
argosfalcon @ 116
Anyone know what happened to the AC-130U’s that are in Iraq? I think it was Steve Gilliard who speculated that they were there to cover the eventual withdrawal. If that is the plan, it sure will be messy.
CTuttle @ 93
B’emmit. (In truth.)
I hesitated about even mentioning Israel in the context of our discussion about American use of cluster-bombs because I knew that there would be many who would point to documentation of the charges against Israel. But fair is fair …
Israel may be charged in the Hague. It may be convicted. I have no way of predicting the future, which is why I am not at Hialeah right now.
If it does come to that, I will still want to form my own opinion about whether the charges and the result were fair. But until that happens, I will reserve judgment and try to educate myself. Thanks to those of you who have provided links/information.
Siun @ 86
And Mitch check this out about Israel using phosphorus in Lebanon:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html
It seems to me that I remember reading about its use in the occupied territories as well, but I could be wrong about that.
Puff was a C-47 w/a coupla vulcan mini-cannons, one port, the other starboard…
C-130s in nam were called ’spookies’…nowadays, “spectre”
same armaments, though: vulcan 20mm mini-cannon, 6000 rounds per minute…sounds like a card-sharp shuffling
Grief is hard. It is different for everyone who has it. Elements the same, but still.
Cindy Sheehan may run for Congress. Imagine what the grief is doing in Iraq. Imagine the grief of Fallujah.
Grief all day, every day. Cannot imagine the magnitude of it, growing. Growing as it goes.
Democracy Now – Fallujah reports
and from the BBC:
Steve @ 117
I agree with ya, Steve! Enough American laws were trashed by Shrubco, yet, I would still like to have the ICC as backup, to ensure Justice is justly served!!! 8-)
bhatten @ 127
I wouldn’t count on it. Scalia, Kennedy, and Thomas are within some norm for the court…Roberts and Alito are truly evil men.
Chief Justice Earl Warren greatly disappointed Eisenhower. But as to Roberts letting Bush down? I have misgivings. We can always hope though.
DOD procurement contracts all go through GSA – Lorna Doone took over in 2006…long after the WP would have been purchased, however, there must be records indicating DOD purchase of WP. Inventory and use of it must be tracked somewhere, as well as reordering.
LS – the US has admitted the use of White Phosphorous as a weapon.
They don’t even feel they have to hide their war crimes.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 120
While I would prefer that Nancy Pelosi were more progressive, you underestimate the procedural difficulties of getting anything done, you underestimate the wide variety of positions of the Dems in the House, and you underestimate Nancy Pelosi. She is one of the best politicians in Washington (do you think Rice would have gone to Syria if Pelosi hadn’t gone?, do you think a lesser politician would have survived the nonstop onslaught of slime the media has thrown at her?). As speaker, her personal convictions are not really that important. She is a professional politician, and very, very good at it.
Much as I love Cindy Sheehan, Boehnert would eat her breakfast, lunch and dinner every day.
AC 130 are generally Specter gun ships, the older Spooky ship were retired but varents base on other air frame most likely exist.
CTuttle @ 47
Israel dropped over a million U.S. supplied cluster bombs on populated areas of Southern Lebanon less than a year ago. Doing so violated assurances we had been given and congressionally imposed restrictions on their use. A motion to condemn that action was unanimously defeated in congress.
wgg: tokin lib’rul @ 132
I agree with the armament utilized, I’ve fired vulcans personally! However, I’ve never heard of C-47’s being utilized, from individuals whom served in Nam, personally told me they were all AC-130’s!!! AC is the proper nomenclature of those flying lethal behemoths!!!
Excellent post Siun. Reports like this can make me ashamed to be American. Where is the honor in our military? In our foreign policy?
I cannot see how we are going to lessen the undue influence the Israeli government has on our government.
http://www.defenseindustrydail…..ete-01268/
I really should back away from the keyboard, but I ALWAYS visit Siun’s post on Sundays, ’cause it is more often than not the closest essay here to where my heart is.
Rant 1: Cindy Sheehan has every bit as much right to enter a primary as Ned Lamont does.
Rant 2: The die was cast for these war crimes as soon as the situation got out of hand. This was inevitalbe, as the war criminal Donald Rumsfeld and his minions set our guys up for the discipline to break down. I commented on the inevitability of this and why it would happen, just before the First Battle of Faluja, back in early April, 2004, at a talk I gave in Anchorage. The reference to “Nissum” is to a guy named Yossi Nissum, a sociopathic Israeli bulldozer driver, who commited probable war crimes in Jineen:
Is the acceptance of Nissum’s sociopathy indicitive of the present state of the Israeli Defense Forces? I think not, but anyone studying the varying records in the occupied territories from one unit or one sector or one checkpoint to another, knows some units are simply loose cannon, or to direct the analogy more closely, loose gigantic blades, cutting swaths through peaceful areas about four feet wider than the alleys the bulldozers enter generally are.
….I felt uncomfortable when reading Nissum’s statement, worried that American forces in Iraq, as the situation would inevitably deteriorate, would undergo their own degradation of morale, morality and effective command and control. Sure enough, Yahoo carried a report on April 3, 2004 of Marines preparing revenge missions to Fallujah. Tank barrels in Baghdad are embellished with slogans like “bloodlust” and “kill them all” ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/ne…..;ncid=1473 ) as our troops prepare for the next stage in our efforts to bring democracy to the Middle East.
back to work…
puff pre 68, but still in use outside theater to at lest 80s not just in south east Asia.
wigwam @ 142
It is a sheer travesty! What would make it worse is if Israel utilizes the Nukes we’ve provided them on Iran!!! 8-(
Siun @ 140
Oh. I was under the impression they claimed it was just to “light the way”…or to create smoke clouds. I didn’t realize they had actually admitted using it as a weapon. I’m going to puke.
We are all the enemy.
The citizens of this country.
All of the Iraqi people.
Our soldiers.
Any country outside of the USA with the possible exceptions of Saudi Arabia and Israel.
But soon the list will grow so short that the only names on it will be Bush, Rove, Cheney, Rumsfeld
and Libby.
Impeach, try and convict for war crimes, jail and/or hanging.
This is the only time in my life I have thought that the death penalty applies.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 137
I sure he was disappointed, he should have been a safe choice. Earl Warren, as CA atty gen was the prime mover for putting the Japanese into camps.
greenwarrior @ 132
Thank you for the link. I do not know how much credit if any to give to the charge that the Israelis used these weapons against civilians. My deep instinct is to say Bullsh*t, and demand proof.
If Israel used nasty weapons in a lawful manner against people who attacked them, I say, blame the people who started the war, and remember, war is hell.
I am pretty damned pro-Israel and I make no secret about it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 146
Chris Hedges recommends that we simply declare independence from Israel: http://www.truthdig.com/report…..om_israel/
TexB! Got the wonderful photos on facebook. You guys looked like you had a great time, and such a beautiful spot.
TexB @ 144
Ma’am, there is honor in our Military! The leadership provided by Shrub is the root of the evil!!! Period!!! ;-)
CBU’s are far more attractive to children, all tho its said they are suppose to go inert after a time, now I’ll buy that for a dollar.
Loo Hoo. @ 156
It was wonderful. Great people. As wonderful in person as they are online.
CTuttle @ 150
So far as I know, they’ve built their own nukes, but with our connivance.
Siun @ 135
That was the argument, Siun, that WP was NOT a “chemical weapon”, that the U.S. wasn’t a signatory anyhow, that it was only used for lighting, blah-blah-blah.
BULLSH*T.
The use of WP in urban, civilian-inhabited environs is WRONG. UNETHICAL. IMMORAL.
And the U.S. abdicated its leadership — yet again — in using WP.
argosfalcon @ 142
there were 12 on USAF inventory, and probably 4 with the USMC as of early 2007. Can’t find the link… All are close to the standard of the AC-130U, with 1×25mm, 1×40mm, and 1×105mm howitzer. Modified by Rockwell from AC-130H’s.
CTuttle @ 156
I am often ashamed of my gov’t. I am never ashamed to be an American.
Siun, thank you for all the hard work you put into these posts. I also look forward to Sunday nights, because I know I’m going to learn something important.
ET – thank you.
The modeling of tactics by the US military after the worst of the Israeli practices in Lebanon and the occupied territories is a continuing horror.
Read, for example, Robert Fisk’s Pity the Nation.
Well what can you expect from “Chair Borne Rangers”.
Big Mitch @ 154
War crimes are war crimes. Nations and movements that behave like Hezbollah should be treated like Hezbollah.
Isreal and you seem to view them as moral peers.
LS @ 147
this is dated Sep last year, and they got a 23 million dollar contract to make the stuff!? and we admit it’s a weapon!?
and we’re in Iraq because Saddam had chemical weapons he might use against us!? `
Big Mitch @ 153
I don’t want to get into an Isra*l discussion but just want to make the point that the past six years has stripped this country of the moral authority to judge anyone. We have killed maybe a million Iraqi’s for no reason and no logic.
Ed*ard Teller @ 148
Wait! I’m slacking, you can, too. To whom in Anchorage did you give this talk?
GordonM @ 141
Goodnight, friends. I hope in the midst of this we will hear a voice of moral and visionary leadership.
I am very ashamed of what our country is doing right now. And ashamed that these are the people we “elected.” (I know the dispute, but neither election should ever have so close as to be in doubt.) Some large group of our citizens have supported these cretins. Or drank the koolaid.
Big Mitch @ 153
I empathize with ya, however, there is no reason to use Cluster Bombs within civilian populations!!! Duds are strewed far and wide! Unlike, Land mines, there are no means of defusing the bomblets!!!!!!!
Ed*ard Teller @ 147
Of course she does. I just get pissed when people blame Pelosi for not being able to herd cats while fighting off the GOP (who are using every trick in the book to stymie her) and the media (who go on about cat fights, luxury planes, facelifts…).
Absolutely.
Steve @ 137
Lawyer Roberts was there in Florida in 2000 helping Bush with the Florida “the-exit-polls-are-wrong election”. I’m declining to hold my breath on Roberts doing the right thing.
wigwam @ 158
I’ll buy that!!! One can’t rule that possibility out!!!
CTuttle @ 150
We didn’t provide nukes to Israel. They developed their own. They tested them with assistance from the apartheid regime in South Africa, but the U.S. has clean hands on this.
A million cluster bombs is a lot. It doesn’t sound reasonable to me, unless you mean there were a million bomblets delivered in cluster bombs.
But if it is a charge against Israel, who needs documentation?
A leader is one who knows how to calm the violent urges in people. We need Gandhi desperately. Is this another one of those times in history when all the evil forces line up? It will be catastrophic. And now the Pope had to throw in his ugly deed and take the church back to the “good old days” when the Dark Ages reigned. You will be converted or it is the iron mask for you. Viva the Inquisition!
I’m heading for the shower to indulge myself while I still can.
Big Mitch @ 170
Rabbi Yossi Greenburg and I set up a public meeting at UAA on April 8, 2004.
I am sick to hear the Florida news about Roberts. Why didn’t the Dems go after that? I do not recall hearing that little gem elsewhere. And, of course, he is such a charming fellow :)
Loo Hoo. @ 89
The Speaker needs to tend her home fires. In March 2006, our Board of Supervisors voted 7-3 to instruct our elected federal representatives to impeach Bush.
Furthermore, in November, the general electorate directed our federal elected officials, specifically our Congresswoman, to seek to impeach President Bush and Vice President Cheney. The vote was 70-30.
A candidate who challenges Congresswoman Pelosi in the primary, or the general, on impeachment alone, could succeed.
Well I wish this, was not the case but you press good people to the edge and beyond, you get this on the ground. And with no accountability at the top, no end to the horror. But thats why you control the images, and de-humanize the enemy which is a tactic not a group of people. A bad way to fight.
TeddySanFran @ 181
You better have the clout to pull it all together or your peers will vote against you and obstruct your every move.
http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts…..pathy.html
My bro raised this issue. Seems that the occupants of the White House and those in lock-step with corporate oil exhibit sociopathic behavior .
“When people with these sociopathic characteristics have too much power and are uncontrolled then we have a recipe for disaster.”
Great post!!!!!!!!!
TeddySanFran @ 180
Right on, Teddy! I was hoping for your input on Pelosi’s potential woes!!! Isn’t she ticking off her constituents with her ‘moderate’ views??? Jez askin’!!!
bhatten @ 179
And Roberts along with Fred Fielding helped Ray-Gun obstruct justice with the Gorsuch contempt case. That’s why these people have to be dealt with this time; they don’t go away.
http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=71740
I would be much happier if the Speaker would seek impeachment hearings against Dick or George.
Steve @ 185
Same damn criminals keep coming back around. And around. And around again.
BALLOTS WITH COUNTABLE PAPER TRAILS
GordonM @ 141
If Sheehan were to defeat Pelosi in the Congressional election, a new Speaker would be elected. It wouldn’t be Sheehan. She’d be way, way down the seniority list.
Replacing a Congressperson doesn’t replace her/him in his leadership roles. It loses the advantage for the homecourt that a leadership role brings. It also ensures real representation.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 146
Take a long look at Ron Paul.
A*P*C has almost all the candidates bagged up except Ron Paul. And that is driving them nuts.
wigwam @ 185
Nice exclamation mark, Wigwam!!! *g*
TeddySanFran @ 191
Hoyer?
Keep Nancy, no matter what!
Big Mitch @ 154
My sympathies are with the Israeli people. I don’t think they have much to say that their leaders will listen to. I stand with members of their peace organizations when they come here to protest the violence. There voices are drowned out there. Bless their courage. I have as much contempt for their government leaders as I do my own. They feed on each other bringing out the worst in each other.
Sounds like Nancy can avoid the problem by simply doing the right thing … impeach.
Loo Hoo. @ 189
hey there’s an idea! why not?
Loo Hoo. @ 188
Optical scanners provide the quick reporting necessary, and, the paper trail!!! Fill in the bubble, Duh!!!
Siun @ 194
hey there’s an idea! why not?
Another must read by Meteor blades: a short and concise condemnation of one of the worst war criminals..Colin Powell
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/8/185843/7816
Well the death and maiming of so many in Asia and other locations around the globe, seem acceptable to those that have never served or seen the results. Its once again show the images and make the suffering known. But war is war not matter who its against no matter the reason. And an unethical illegal war well only sorrow for me no matter who wages it.
TeddySanFran @ 190
I realize that. I used to live in the EBay (25 years), so I know Pelosi and that she’s not all that SF wants (and not what I wanted, either). After I moved, I didn’t pay that much attention to her until she became speaker. But drop your ideology for a moment and just look at how well she plays the game. She’s probably the best speaker since Tip O’Neill.
(Hell, you guys keep putting Feinstein back in office, and she’s damn near a Republican.)
Elliott – odd, ain’t it?
“Nat Helms – who reports that he “advised the penitent Marine to keep his mouth shut”
Does this make Helms an accomplice after-the-fact to a war crime?
Why not?
and with that cryptic statement i’m RTB, braking left.
Talkin’ ’bout Li’l Debbie upstairs
Big Mitch @ 177
The Israelis got most of their help in developing a nuclear weapon from the French.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
The bomblets in cluster bombs have a failure rate of more than 20%. According to Jan Egeland, then UN chief for humanitarian affairs,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm
This BBC article mentions up to 1 million unexploded bomblets left in South Lebanon. Whether the number is a million or several hundred thousand, the way they were used at the end of the conflict when a deal had already been agreed on is a crime, period.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5382192.stm
Big Mitch @ 154
Mitch, I hold Israeli as well as U.S. citizenship. I lived in Israel for 8 years. I wish no harm to Israel or to Jews.
And a lot of what Israel is doing to the people within its borders and its neighbors is just wrong. Just like what the U.S. often does in foreign countries is wrong (as in Iraq, Afghanistan and many many other places).
When I first moved to Israel right after the war in 1967, I saw with my own eyes Israeli soldiers harassing Arabs in the street at the point of guns. In one case I intervened and they went on their way. I heard with my own ears Israeli soldiers telling me about raping and killing women while they were soldiers in the occupied territories during the 1967 war. The 8 years I lived in Israel, I watched time after time as non-Jewish citizens were treated in abominable fashion. And now, it’s worse than it was then. Now they are carving out and encircling communities in the West Bank, completely disrupting family and community life, capturing territory, letting people die at check points. It’s wrong.
And, for me, being Jewish and Israeli to boot, will never be enough to say “Israel’s always right no matter what it does.” No, its policies create atrocities. Just like U.S. policies are creating atrocities.
I personally have no greater desire in this world than to see peace in the Middle East. Nothing is more important to me. I don’t personally see that the way is to deny oppression that kills.
Of course she’s a fabulous Speaker, and we are all very proud of her. But her district is not represented in Congress. People may not stand for that, given a clear alternative on a November ballot.
And for the record, I have never voted for Dianne Feinstein, although I have visited her office to discuss our rush to war with Iran.
Loo Hoo. @ 190
We can depend on Republicans to even shut off the electricity to steal an election.
Paper ballots and ink, verified and counted by hand, is the most secure system of voting.
All e-voting must be eliminated.
Duncan Hare – that’s a mighty good question!
Helms’ piece is astonishing as he reports things like telling the Marine to “keep his mouth shut” without any apparent worry that he himself might be prosecuted.
Greenwarrior – thank you!
wigwam @ 187
The article goes on to state that investigation has only identified “864 cluster bomb strike locations have been identified in southern Lebanon. The unexploded ordnance is estimated to contaminate an area of 34 million square metres.”
By the way, a million square metres = 1 square km.
As I suspected, the “million cluster bombs” refers to the bomblets that compose a single cluster bomb. Also, note that the article states that Israel is cooperating in getting the weapons removed.
Loo Hoo. @ 156
Yes, we did! And the photos just remind me.
Big Mitch … the article says:
Since I have friends who are involved in trying to remove those “bomblets” I’m a bit less relaxed about the numbers than you apparently are.
Big Mitch @ 214
The Israelis pulled out of South Lebanon so their cooperation is largely “theoretical”. The real question remains why Israel used these vicious weapons when the clock was already running to the ceasefire. They already knew that strategically they had lost. In the last hours of the conflict, the Israeli political leadership used markedly increased but strategically pointless violence as CYA so they could declare “victory” before leaving.
greenwarrior @ 209
It sounds like you are pretty pro-Israel and not making any secret about it either. Love of Israel, or love of America does not require us to forego criticism of the country. I am sure that Israel has made many mistakes like the ones you enumerate. And I hope it does not sound like I am minimizing by calling them “mistakes.” But if as you argue it is counter-productive to peace, then, it is a mistake, no matter how horrible.
It does bother me tremendously though that Israel is held to a higher standard, gets no credit for trying to correct its mistakes, and is treated as the moral equivalent of people who want to destroy her.
In Golda Meir’s famous formulation: “I can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. But I don’t know if I will ever be able to forgive them for making our children kill theirs.”
I guess I ought to apologize to anyone here who feels that I hijacked this thread to a discussion of Israel.
Siun @ 56
I think this is a centrally important point. As comforting as it might be to imagine otherwise, most atrocities are committed by otherwise ordinary, decent people in horrific situations. The Holocaust, the Russian pogroms, the Rwanda genocide, Darfur, were not just carried out by monsters, but also by folks like you and me. As an anthropologist, I struggle to understand how this can happen. Part of the answer is in the dehumanization of the “other” which has been mentioned. A big piece comes from the leadership (where many of the monsters dwell). In order for normally decent people to behave like monsters they need to be permitted and encouraged to do so. The whole doctrine of command responsibility derives from the understanding that it is the responsibility of the leadership to establish and maintain an atmosphere where this sort of thing will not be tolerated. There will always be atrocities in war, it is in the nature of the beast, but proper command can and does minimize it.
Big Mitch – discussions of Israel are important but I do find your apparent willingness to excuse Israel’s war crimes as simply “mistakes” or to ignore the factual record pretty disturbing.
Re quoting Golda Meir. As she said in 1969
Dr Dick – thank you. I remember back when Amnesty International launched the campaign against torture and one component of the campaign involved interviewing torturers who are, for the most part, rather ordinary folks. We find it so much more reassuring to believe that only some “bad people” completely unlike us would do such things.
Big Mitch @ 219
No apology necessary, as what you said was totally honest from your perspective and experience. I’m hoping we can pique your obvious curiosity, learn from your experiences, and produce results which are positive in ways we can’t yet realize.
{{{{greenwarrior}}}}
Siun @ 223
As I said at the time:
My point is that Israel is pursuing peace, albeit, in a misguided way. This is different from seeking the destruction of a government and a people, which is the avowed aim of Hamas and Hezbollah. If memory serves, I introduced the discussion of Israel (@ #75 Supra) by reporting an accusation against Israel.
Re the killings in Falluja, there is a strong desire among most of us to support the troops but not the policy that sent them there.
But what happened in Falluja, Haditha, and Abu Ghraib are indicative of a systemic problem and sytemic failures. These kinds of things happen because there have been major lapses in training and in command direction. That means the generals on down to the grunts (who are usually the ones who face the charges). If there had been strong leadership on the treatment of combatants. These incidents would not have happened.
As I have written in the past, such failures are good indications of a “rotten” mission, that is one without clearly defined goals and constraints.
Siun @ 225
The Banality of Evil:
The concept of the banality of evil came into prominence following the publication of Hannah Arendt’s 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, which was based on the trial of Adolph Eichmann in Jerusalem. Arendt’s thesis was that people who carry out unspeakable crimes, like Eichmann, a top administrator in the machinery of the Nazi death camps, may not be crazy fanatics at all, but rather ordinary individuals who simply accept the premises of their state and participate in any ongoing enterprise with the energy of good bureaucrats.from: http://www.informationclearing…..le7278.htm
Big Mitch @ 225
I think after 40 years of conducting a fairly brutal occupation, they and we are past the “misguided” defense.
Hugh @ 230
What would you have Israel do?
This is not really a debate I want to get into right now. John from Cincinnati is coming on in 14 minutes.
But start with the premise that there has not been an occupation. I know the word has succeeded in becoming part of the vernacular, but recall if you will that Jordan gave up any claims to the West Bank and Egypt gave up any claim to GAza. Israel is criticized for building a wall, but Egypt gets a pass for the wall it built between Egypt and Gaza.
Occupation is a term with legal significance. It does not fit the facts of this case.
By the way, it does fit the facts of the Iraqi excursion. But when it was used Wingnuts went into a hissy fit about calling Americans occupiers.
Big Mitch @ 225
At one time, they probably meant it. At this point, it’s a silly piece of rhetoric meant to offend. Which it does.
There’s an ethnic joke which goes like this:
Q: What do you get when you cross an X with a wild boar?
A: A pig with the ability to bear a grudge.
First heard it about the Irish, but it applies to anyone. Make that just about everyone.
Who’s right all depends on what you consider the start of the narrative. A good sign that nobody is.
[Incidentally, there’s a retired diplomat down the road who wrote a local op-ed in support of the Mearsham / Walt article about the undue influence of A*P*C, quoting only from Golda Meir and Ben-Gurion. He’s been receiving death threats for months.]
GordonM – used to read your blog daily, and can’t begin to fathom why I stopped. This was like three years ago, and two computers ago. I just put the bookmark on this machine. You’re great!
If you scroll up there is an post from Ed*ward Teller in which he includes a link to an Anchorage Daily News article. ET is a composer and he wrote a piece that some interpreted as pro-Palestinean. The local Orthodox Rabbi engaged him in a private debate about it, and they decided that a public discussion would be better for all concerned. And so, ET arranged it at the local University.
It went to hell in a hurry, with Jews and Right Wing-nuts attacking ET from both sides and, ET also apologized for some trivial behavior towards the Rabbi.
In the end, it sounds like there was a rather productive exchange by people open to productive exchanges.
I bring it up because the Rabbi is quoted at the end of the article as saying; “There is a Yiddish expression: ‘There’s always three sides to an argument. Your side, my side and the truth.”
“
Who’s right all depends on what you consider the start of the narrative. A good sign that nobody is.”
Ed*ard Teller @ 232
No, that wasn’t me. 3 years ago I was fighting lawyers and creditors and still trying to prop up my dying career. My agonist diary pretty much marks my return to something resembling sanity ;-).
Big Mitch @ 229
Make peace. What a peace treaty would look like to a high level of detail was already known years before the 1993 Oslo Accords. Instead of peace, the Israelis have pursued an illusory goal of victory. Peace is not, however, about getting everything you want. It is about getting what you can live with.
Israel claims that it wants peace but has followed a pattern of assassination even when targeted groups had declared ceasefires, engaged in group punishments, restricted free movement of people, expanded settlements, usurped natural resources, and built an apartheid style wall of separation. All of these are in contavention of international law. So at the same time that Israel has pursued peace in its “misguided” way, it has done everything in its power to undermine it and it has done so for decades. I would have Israelis affirm that international law does in fact apply to them and cease these activities.
They won’t, of course. Israeli political leadership is even more pathetic than our own. Israeli has always supported a two state solution in theory but has rejected it in practice. Time is running out on it. If there is no two state solution in the next 5 years, I would say that in the next 10, 20, or 30 years, there will be a single state solution. I am not talking about genocide, just that a “Jewish” state will no longer exist there.
Big Mitch @ 233
Thanks, Mitch. Obviously I’m goy, but somehow all my best childhood friends were jews (as was my 1st wife, who I still think is a great person). I rarely speak on the subject, cause I’m damn near as conflicted as the situation. But I can’t help but think that the administration there is on par with ours here.
And, I should add, so is my 1st son. Now try explaining that to a goy!
It’s important to recognize that the US is very closely following Israeli tactics in the occupation of Iraq. And those tactics – by either Israel or the US are illegal under international law and conventions … and in the US, under our own laws.
The protection of civilians, no torture, no bombing of civilian neighborhoods, use of chemical warfare, etc … these are illegal. It’s quite simple really.
Big Mitch @ 230
That is specious. An occupation is not an occupation because the fact that it is embarrasses you? This is not an argument. Military control of an area for 40 years is an occupation. This appeal to some kind of legalistic sleight of hand redefinition is silly. What should we call it? A picnic? A field trip that got out of hand?
{{{{Big Mitch}}}}
Thanks. Yossi, like Jerry Prevo, spends 75% of his time caring for the people in his
congregationcommunity. When he does that, like Jerry, he’s wonderful. My friend Rachel Epstein, the events coordinator for UAA bookstore, after hosting an event where Yossi, a conservative Thai Buddhist priest and a conservative Imam spoke about cultural challenges, observed to me “The only thing they have in common is that they HATE WOMEN.”Jerry, who knows how much I’ve challenged his ideas over the years, told me after I played “Taps” at Herbie Nyokpuk’s funeral, “That’s the most beautiful rendition of Taps I’ve ever heard.” Yossi, after I publicly apologized to him for something I didn’t do, said nothing, when given an opportunity.
People need to learn from their experiences, or evolution ceases, outside random events outside our control.
GordonM @ 234
bookmark stays. good stuff…
ET – I find the whole Agonist team very worth reading on a daily basis. Smart folk with a wider view than many.
Siun @ 238
I have to agree. I am a strong supporter of Israel (in the sense of their right to exist), but their conduct in the occupied territories is completely out of bounds and frankly counterproductive. Israeli policies (including support for the settlements on Palestinian lands, excessive force, the wall, etc.) establish the environment which allows and encourages Hamas and Hezbollah to flourish.
Dr Dick – I was astonished – or horrified – when I read Pity the Nation last year during the Israel Lebanon war and could trace the exact same methods, targets, etc as before … almost down to the same apartment blocks being bombed. At the same time, the parallel with the chosen tactics in Iraq was stunning … it was a very informative experience.
Hugh @ 241
Words have meaning. You cn call this a legalistic sleight of hand, but when you do so you undermine the rule of law. An “occupation” occurs when one country invades another, controls territory and the other country seeks to re-gain control of the territory it lost. The U.S. occupied Germany after world war II, but never sought permanent annexation.
Under the Geneva Accords, the status of an occupier imposes legal obligations. If Israel were to undertake those obligations, all hell would break loose, because the Palestineans would never relinquish peacefully the measure of control necessary to fulfill those obligations.
CTuttle @ 144
I can’t sleep through the night these days….
All I know about the gunships, aside from Cobras and Hueys, is that when we called for close support in a hot situation we could count on the bad guys getting creamed just about right next to us. In many extraction situations, we’d give the crews in the planes our locations and they’d lay down blistering fire, I mean like bullets being sprayed from a garden hose.
Puff and Spooky lierally saved my ass on more than one occasion out in Happy Valley and the Tennis Courts along with the Marines flying with the Hostage call signs in the OV-10 Broncos.
I owe a lot of guys a few tequila shots!!
greenwarrior @ 116
I’m talking about Vietnam along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, in the lingo of the government in the citations that accompanied medals given for service in that area “west of Danang.” Any citations received for actions taken by Marines in Laos were designated west of Danang.
We had to do BDAs to determine if whatever they had been after was destroyed and to gather evidence, if we could find any, of which units might be operating in the area, and yeah, arc light runs left huge craters, splintered trees, leveled ground, and if there had been any NVA concentrated in the area, very little evidence if they’d been there or not.
Came to this thread very late today.
We know at some point Israel will have to face what it thus far has chosen very much to avoid.
That will be to accept the existence of Arab Palestine and to pull back to the 1967 lines and return of East Jerusalem to Arab Palestine.
This must happen.Will happen.Only question still being whether sooner or later?
What is the alternative?
What does it look like?
More Israeli brutality against Arab Palestine? Increased expungement of Arab Palestine? Killing off the Arabs until they are all dead or have become refugees?
Is this what Israel intends to do?
The Americans have very stupidly allowed Israel to run with a Israeli version of the GWOT that fully is intended to cloak Israeli land grabs,repressive police state conduct and expungement of Arab Palestine with an avalanche of Israeli rulemaking,permit games,visa/passport games,property rights abuse and unilateral takings,terrorist branding,political snuff outs and cultural demolition of Arab Palestine.
Obviously they know G.W.Bush is quite ignorant and have gamed that ignorance repeatedly.
Israeli zealots seek what will only bring the worst of outcomes on all of Israel.
American occupation conduct in Iraq is being modeled on Israeli tactics and methods.
Eventually the truth which surely is known well enough in Iraq already by many,many Iraqis will find its way back to more and more Americans in the USA with passage of time.
It very likely will be an account of brazen occupation law breaks,sordidness and craven lack of mercy or better instincts of martial conduct.
With the worst of brutal,punitive storytells and multiple brutality examples and instances coming to the light of day when finally able.
The Americans are surely leaving a tragic trail of wanton conduct,cultural ignorance and many examples of war crimes for the Arab world to fully see up close and remember.
When this Iraq Occupation by Americans is fully documented in all ways not currently possible the USA will not come out of it as having acted/been very noble.
The Americans are not the good guys in Iraq.
“I’m no longer shocked to learn that Marines allegedly killed unarmed prisoners…”
Maybe that’s why the Iraqis are now encouraged to get their own guns. I don’t see how arming themselves helps them against US military during a search of their home.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..0709/iraq/
There are videos of what Iraq looks like today compared to what it looked like 5 years ago. In the end, it won’t matter that we did not “bomb them to the stone age” as radio wingnuts were shouting in 2003.
We are the bad guys no matter what world issue you look at.
P J Evans @ 7
For two (or is it three now?) years now this never leaves me. I am an officer reservist in the Air Force. While serving my weekend duty period we had to go to our annual LOAC briefing (Law of Armed Conflict). Normally, the brief is actually the watching of a nicely made video from the JAG’s office in the Pentagon. It goes over the Law of War, Geneva Conventions, the rules in dealing with prisoners, what is and isn’t a valid target, etc. This time, however, there was no video. Our local JAG officer gave the brief…and I will NEVER forget it.
He presented a rather off-the-cuff briefing (brief indeed) about LOAC and breezed over the Geneva Conventions and rules of dealing with prisoners and enemy combatants. While doing this he commented that these rules really don’t apply to the insurgents in Iraq (in a joking, light-hearted manner as if the very idea of using Geneva-friendly rules of conduct was a joke). I was stunned by this. I remain stunned, disheartened, and totally demoralized by this. It hasn’t left me and never will.
There is no wonder that the Marines in Fallujah went “wilding” on the Iraqis there. I cannot imagine that the Marine JAGs (and other leadership) were any less dismissive of LOAC than our own JAG officer was. Quaint indeed.
Since that performance, I have been waiting for an opportunity to attend another such briefing to see if there is a repeat performance (we sometimes get the brief via online training which covers the rules clearly, boringly, and very dispassionately which is certainly better than that last “live” brief). I was too stunned, too shocked to say anything last time but if I get a repeat I WILL respond. There is MORE here than simply the Geneva Conventions. Besides the UCMJ itself, there is also the Conventions Against Torture, Abuse, and Inhumane Treatment which leave NO “wiggle room” because it applies to anyone and everyone, legal or “illegal” combatant or not.