The Sunday New York Times features a half page editorial in which the editorial board finally calls for a planned redeployment of US troops out of the contested areas of Iraq and into surrounding areas including Kuwait and possibly the Kurdish north.
It is time for the United States to leave Iraq, without any more delay than the Pentagon needs to organize an orderly exit.
. . .
Continuing to sacrifice the lives and limbs of American soldiers is wrong. The war is sapping the strength of the nation’s alliances and its military forces. It is a dangerous diversion from the life-and-death struggle against terrorists. It is an increasing burden on American taxpayers, and it is a betrayal of a world that needs the wise application of American power and principles.A majority of Americans reached these conclusions months ago. Even in politically polarized Washington, positions on the war no longer divide entirely on party lines. When Congress returns this week, extricating American troops from the war should be at the top of its agenda.
Although the Time's editorial page has strongly criticized the President's policies over many months, this is an important watershed for America's paper of record, and I urge everyone to read the full editorial. Editorial boards across the country are probably struggling with the same issue and are now more likely to follow the Times' lead. Moreover, the Times' statement comes just as we receive more tragic news from Iraq and just before Congressional Democrats are set to reintroduce Iraq withdrawal proposals and court wavering Republicans.
The editors acknowledge coming to their conclusion reluctantly. They doubted the efficacy of the "surge" strategy" last winter and previously advocated other strategies, hoping these would salvage something worthwhile out of the catastophic mess the Bush/Cheney regime created. Today's editorial, however, abandons those hopes and presents a sobering, mind numbing recitation of how desperate the situation is and how deeply mired the US has become in an impossible quagmire. It then lays out all the complexities that any successful redeployment strategy must confront -- the likely increased internal violence and civil war, the dangers of withdrawal to US troops, the potential for regional conflict, the certainty of massive humanitarian crises for millions of refugees -- all nightmare scenarios that must be confronted under any plan.
But the Times' editors make a critical assumption -- that the President and Vice President will reverse course and cooperate -- and thus ignore the most formidable obstacle that must be overcome before any alternative strategy can even be developed, let alone attempted: the Bush/Cheney regime will vehemently oppose it, undermine it, and if somehow forced, bungle it. This President is simply not intellectually or emotionally capable of accepting the defeat of his central foreign policy without a personal meltdown.
The reason the Iraq catastrophe is called a "quagmire" is because there are no simple or good options for getting out or staying in. Any withdrawal strategy is as fraught with risks as staying. Fashioning a plan that can extract America from its greatest foreign policy blunder ever will require the wisest, most honest and insightful leadership this country can muster. But does anyone seriously believe these qualities reside in the Bush White House?
We're expecting the people who arrogantly blundered into this disaster, lied about it and continue to be in denial about the mess they've made to lead the way out? Do we trust this President's judgment in making strategic choices, or his honesty in laying out the consequences to the American people? Does anyone seriously believe Dick Cheney would do anything but make matters worse, lie about it, and cover up his behind the scenes manipulations? Is there any reason to have confidence in Condoleeza "no one could have anticipated" Rice, or National Security Advisor Hadley (Cheney's mole) -- or the belligerent (pardon me) neocon in charge of Middle East policy at State, a team whose list of failures now includes destabilizing Lebanon and dismembering Gaza, not to mention strengthening Iran's strategic position and exacerbating conditions that could lead to regional Sunni vs Shia conflict? This crew has brought havoc wherever they've gone.
Even if the President nominally accepted the need for policy change as a result of increasing pressure from his own Party, there is no basis for trusting this President's word, nor any basis for trusting the competence of his execution even if, through some miracle, he sincerely embraced change. And there can be no doubt whatsoever that Vice President Cheney and his minions throughout the national security apparatus would do everything they could to undermine, sabotage and reverse the new strategy.
The regime has never given the slightest hint that they would accept a fundamentally different strategy, let alone one imposed by its opponents in the reality-based community. That remains true no matter how many Republicans start hedging their bets.
If America is now prepared to end it's occupation of Iraq and embark on a truly different strategy that does not get the US mired in yet another Middle East military quaqmire, it must face this central truth: The Bush/Cheney neocon vision of imposing US hegemony in the Middle East by force must be rejected, and those who pursued this vision must be systematically removed from their positions. No new strategy can be planned and executed until the Bush/Cheney regime is removed from office, along with the entire neocon national security team that designed, promoted, and implemented the current failed policies.
If we want to end the occupation, we have to start by liberating the White House. A malevolent and delusional crowd, cheered on by frightened warmongers, headed by Dick Cheney and embraced by the befuddled Bush himself, has a stranglehold on America's national security policy, and they are not going to loosen their grip until forced to do so. The New York Times editorial is a highly important statement, but it is still missing the most essential paragraph. The regime must go.
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first?
caw caw
Has everyone here seen ‘Blog Wars’ on Sundance Channel?
Very cool documentary with many of our favorite friends.
And the Kiss float!
Hi Scarecrow!
“This President is simply not intellectually or emotionally capable of accepting the defeat of his central foreign policy without a personal meltdown.”
Bush is a very dangerous and sick man. And we are approaching very dangerous times. If this president feels boxed-in, he may do something rash.
Scarecrow, Great! Now this needs to be published in the NYT for the print crowd. The children of the Grey Lady must read this.
G’day folks. Busy news day on the talkie shows. Libby, Iraq, subpoenas — the opportunities for lying were overwhelming. I’d say the ratio of misdirection/lies to truth was about 9:1 today. More than usual.
I thought the funniest was Specter wondering if Fitz could explain the Plame case to him. Well, he can explain it for you, Arlen, but he can’t understand it for you.
Truer words were never spoken.
Is anybody listening?
Iran he we come…….it’s called ‘Failing Forward’.
That’s gonna leave a mark. And it should!
And there was Specter asking Leahy if they couldn’t get a lot of information behind closed doors — really. The whole country is crying out for straight talk and public accountability, and Arlen thinks a secret meeting is just the thing. Astonishing.
ThinkProgress: Kristol: Bush Timed Clemency To Get Political Cover By Attacking Clinton
Everyone give RevDeb a hug; she still has the crummies from last week, and strangers walking through her on-the-market house. Chicken soup recipies are in order.
Bush and Cheney must be neutralised for this withdrawal to actually begin. Impeachment would do just fine.
Procuratio frutex delenda est.
Here’s the NYT editorial via Truthout: The Road Home
Thank you, Scarecrow! I think you got this exactly right - in all of its scary implications. Congress has no choice but to remove these men from the offices which they are using against the will of “we, the people” and against the principles of the Constitution.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 12
I saw that segment and thought Kristal was being facetious. He saw the Libby sentence as inherently unfair and Bush’ action insufficient. The counter-attack on Clinton was not a reason for it, but only a part of the spin after.
{{{{{{{{{{RevDeb}}}}}}}}}}}}
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 16
Thanks, Stephen. Wasn’t sure with their editorial was Times Select. It’s the second half-pager they’d done on Iraq this year, IIRC — the first being right after the surge was announced. They’ve moved from that.
Scarecrow–I love this:”If we want to end the occupation, we have to start by liberating the White House.” Truer words… Iraq may not be the only country under occupation by the Bushies, eh? Thank you!
As the wheels continue to fall off Bushco the concern is whether they will ratchet up their belligerence and go ahead and attack Iran. It is vital that the Senate pass a resolution preventing this unilateral action. There is no telling what these deluded war mongers will do.
Now that the editorial tide has turned on Iraq it will be interesting to see what the Gooper caucus will actually be willing to do with their votes. Don’t anyone be holding their breath now.
A Cheney impeachment proceeding aimed at his role in Plamegate would turn up some additional heat on this bunch. It might provide some negotiating leverage to get them off the 12 story window ledge they seem so intent on jumping from.
There is absolutely no one in the Republican party who is trustworthy.
complete agree. but i think the problem is even greater than you describe - that most of our democratic leaders (and dem foreign policy elite) subscribe to a version of “imposing US hegemony, by force if necessary” vision.
that’s why they leave everything “on the table” with regards to iran.
getting rid of bush/cheney is a good thing… but i don’t see how we can make that a requirement for getting out of iraq - unless who/what replaces them has a different vision… and i just don’t see that.
selise @ 24
I’m not opposed to getting out before removing the regime from office; I just don’t think it’s a plausible scenario. It would take a lot to convince me that this crowd would accept such a plan.
As I point out here – the NYT has no intention of changing its murderous ways.
The Middle East is exploding. Is this why my party is reluctant to start impeachment proceedings against Richard Cheney. Is the fear that this move would push Bush over the edge?
Great post, Scarecrow!
I needed this after the morning grand rounds of ‘pundits’ on network tv. It’s like nothing I’ve ever seen. Rep. Connor is an ignoramus, as is Kristol. I did see Brit roll his eyes at Connor, tho’…
Sorry to go OT, but a caller on AirAm guided me to this website; I hope y’all will check it out. We need a WWII scholar to review this-
http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20070405.htm
(can also be found googling ‘idaho observer- scherf’)
SC “We’re expecting the people who arrogantly blundered into this disaster, lied about it and continue to be in denial about the mess they’ve made to lead the way out?”
The NYT’s helped lead the way into Iraq in a very big way, with Judy Miller and Micheal Gordon’s unsubstantiated claims about WMD’s being written up without editorial oversight… says it all about the Times integrity.
Many will never ever consider the NYT’s “America’s paper of record.” Those days are long gone. NYT’s is a quilty as Judy Miller and those responsible for accuracy at the times are up to their necks in the Iraqi peoples and American soldiers blood.
Terrific post Scarecrow. Liberate the Whitehouse - indeed.
I advocate getting out of Iraq now. Before the really bad stuff begins.
Scarecrow @ 18
Never trust Bill Kristal. Me thinks he speaks with forked tongue. To put it another way - he’s up to no good.
what Scarecrow says
Scarecrow!!!
IMPEACH IMPEACH IMPEACH
Personally, I think it is enough that NYT has made the editorial statement. As you say, it will echo in other Op-eds and in the Congress as well. The timing is fortunate.
It seems to me that the country is operating as if Bush and Cheney and the neocons are somehow going to abide by the Constitution or any legislation…or any pubic opinion. They haven’t so far, and they are not going to. They are not going to relinquish the control they have. Certainly not in the conventional way. They are way past that. They do not plan on leaving the WH or Iraq. Seriously, can you envision Bush and Cheney packing up their papers and their offices and handing the keys over to a Democrat? No way Jose. Ain’t gonna happen - at least not that way. They must be impeached before some incident occurs, and they claim martial law, and you better believe it, they will, and they won’t look back.
Scarecrow @ 25
agree that it’s not very likely (getting out with bush/cheney still in office).
i just don’t see it being all that more likely with them gone. can you draw me a picture? who are they replaced with? what vision replaces the vision of hegemony? and mostly, after the catharsis of regime change at home… where does the legislative energy come from to start a real withdrawal (not a fake “let’s leave 60,000 troops” withdrawal) come from? wouldn’t there be a reason to have a short term “care taker” presidency and leave the tough choices for whoever is elected in 2008?
i’m usually pretty good with the imagination thing… and i can imagine lots of regime change senarios… but none of them include a real withdrawal.
would seriously love a picture book story or two. help me see the possibilities.
Millineryman @ 19
{{{{{{{{{{RevDeb}}}}}}}}}}}}
Whether we can pull out with Bush in office or not (and I think not without impeachment) the NYT piece is finally a grown up piece that is putting together the things that the grown ups need to be discussing - NOW - with respect to withdrawal. That can begin immediately if there are responsible people in Congress and the military and State Dept who are ready to engage.
That does mean sidestepping the loyal Bushies with their talking pointers - which pretty much leaves only Gates (possibly England) in DOD and pretty much no one at WH, in OVP or in State - and involving actual committed thinking persons who want to do the best that can be done.
The Dems in Congress need to start that process now - in depth independent investigation into and planning for the things the NYT raises. They need to do it as if Bush is a non-factor in the equation, bc correct decisions can only be made if he is a non-factor in the equation. WHich means that they will be working on a plan to be implemented upon his impeachment (which they won’t do) or the end of his term.
casual observer @ 35
Yeah, I assume that’s what they were thinking.
Most people outside the beltway couldn’t give 2 hoots about what the NYT says. And those within the beltway only give it credence when it’s spouting the WH talking points. Otherwise it’s a left wing liberal rag. It’s a no win situation for the Times. And they deserve it after Judy et all did their “patriotic duty” and aided and abetted the criminals who started this war.
This is only another blip on the road to nowhere. UNLES as Scarecrow said the movement begins in ernest to get the crooks out of the WH.
The country is barreling merrily toward a rude awakening. We’ve been coup’d.
QuakerGirl @ 33
Somebody dubbed him William “the Bloody”
It fits.
LS @ 36
They’ve been setting things up for martial law for years with Blackwater by their side. The Pentagon will be sidelined into yes men following orders. Powell will be in charge and he’ll obey.
I don’t think Bush can nuke Iran or Iraq as long as we have soldiers there.
So what’s the probable outcome regarding Iraq between now and the 2008 elections?
1) An impeachment and removal is impossible given the current configuration of congress- unless something changes dramatically and soon. As the clock continues to tick and the primaries begin to occur- talk of impeachment will be seen as superfluous.
2) Goopers who have even a hint of re-election trouble will tailor their message to the local polls. Currently the favored position of the american people is “set a schedule for withdrawal”. That gives goopers a lot of latitude- they only need to support a “schedule” not actual withdrawal by election day- and the issue of “total withdrawal” is not being discussed much yet- so they can innoculate themselves with a “schedule”.
3) It turns out that no matter what- there will be a reduction in troop levels beginning in March- since we don’t have enough troops to continue the current levels beyond that date..
So here’s my prediction:
Threatened Goopers will come out against the “current strategy”. They will demand that we go back to the Iraq Study Group recommendations and further demand a gradual withdrawal schedule beginning in March of 08. The “schedule” will be VERY gradual–getting us down to 100,000 or so on election day. Dems will want a quicker schedule but won’t have the votes to force it…In the end- we’ll do what the goopers propose- which will represent a reduction from the surge levels PLUS another 25,000 or so reduction during 08…Dems will take the deal only after having their own proposals fillibustered, vetoed, or both… so the Clusterfuck presidency will end with a slightly reduced presence in Iraq but with the war still goin strong.
Here’s a diary from Daily Kos about editorials and Iraq
Opinion: Bush Stands Alone In His Failed Iraqi Democracy Plans
Thanks Scarecrow! I was disheartened to see people here arguing against impeachment the other day on the basis that it would be a distraction. Congress doesn’t have the votes to accomplish anything of value until Bush’s veto pen is gone. Hence, the only useful thing for Congress to do is to begin impeachment hearings immediately for Bush and Cheney. With front page coverage of their malfeasance in every newspaper in the country, public pressure will build to the point where either they will resign like Nixon (given the heave ho by Congressional Republicans trying to hold onto their seats) or by additional votes to convict (from the aforementioned Congressional Republicans).
Thanks for the hugs. Feeling cranky about house and move and everything right now. Seeing sicko yesterday didn’t help. Five more days on antibiotics and hopefully things will be looking up. At least for me. Not for the country.
Very well said, Scarecrow. I agree completely. I don’t think beginning the impeachment process is difficult or unwise. It’s actually simple and the time is right.
Mary @ 39
I agree that’s the implicit message: this is what we must work through, even if the WH doesn’t agree. But how do the grownups — assuming they exist — even get access to the critical information needed to make sound decisions? Who could we trust, and why would they even be allowed to speak freely? You can’t get around the information stranglehold — and Cheney understood this from the beginning.
Fantastic, Scarecrow. Faultless logic. Beautiful construction. Precise conclusion. Well done.
Selise @ 24 beat me to it, thanks!
There is another critical assumption still in play - some who beleive in peace and in restoring American moral standing would actually vote for and support a neo-conservative running for president, as long as they had a magical (D) in front of their name!
Rhetorical trimming from the likes of Clinton and Obama, in the face of overwhelming polling data and the reluctant advice of their pollsters, should not be misconstrued by anyone as sincere beliefs.
The NYT hopes it can go on record as finally coming to its senses and calling for withdrawal without following through to the next logical step of calling for removal of the Cheney/Bush regime.
Some in the left blogoshpere beleive they can excoriate the policies of the neo-conservatives day and night, and then not follow through with the same opposition to (D) candidates who literally
repeat the talking points of Dick Cheney that “all options are on the table” in regards to the next neo-conservative attack, on Iran.
Impeachment should be on that effing table by now, verbally condoning further war crimes against a country that poses no threat to the USA should be off the table, or there is no chance of support from anyone who wants to claim they are on some kind of progressive, or to the left of Rahm Emmanuel, rather than a (D) party soldier.
RevDeb @ 48
(((RevDeb)))
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Yes he can. He had no qualms about sending them to their deaths based on lies. The less real soldiers, the less to defend us at home. The private army would have to step in, and they answer to Bush/Cheney, not We the People. These people are ruthless and without conscience.
(((((big hug for Rev Deb)))))
The barbarians are within the gates. We gave them power, and continue to allow them to practice their treachery.
RevDeb @ 48
Would some chocolate help?
thanks, Scarecrow, I totally agree …
so, pursuing impeachment or *something* (as hard as that is …) is easier than talking some sense into this wh, even with 70% of the country agreeing with that sense.
depressing.
if we don’t see some legal pushback from sjc this week regarding ignoring subpoenas, not a single one of the numerous laws that have *already* been publicly broken matter and we are lost. i’m scared.
RevDeb @ 41
First - feel better soon, RevDeb!
Second - I understand your point about the direct influence of the NYT outside the beltway and the NY metro area. But I disagree that it won’t influence the MSM’s talking points and begin to change the “conversation” if you will - about getting the combat troops out. I was so heartened to see a lot of leaks in the WH dam - the choice of guests on the talking heads shows, the NYT mega-editorial, the McClatchey boldness and accuracy in reporting and the increase in visibility of those who disagree with and speak intelligently about the failures of the WH and their loyal slavering followers.
This, at least to me, is a better indicator that the national tolerance tipping point has been reached.
Sporkovat @ 52
What truths you speak! The D party is loaded with NeoCons. Hillary and Bill used the same think tanks and advisers. You can hear it in their language and position. Either way, the NeoCons win.
CNN’s Michael Ware making the case for staying — because we have no other choice — being echoed by the pro-war “expert” General Spiderman who thought it was a great idea to go in. Shorter CNN: we have to continue a catastrophe because we can’t face the consequences of a huge blunder.
For some reason every comment I make goes into moderation….Should I conclude that my comments are no longer wanted?
rwcole @ 62
No, you shouldn’t. Something is triggering; we’ll check.
Scarecrow @ 61
Ware’s been there from the beginning, does that give any weight to his opinion on this? I’ve always felt he genuinely cared about the Iraqi people.
Scarecrow- Thanks- problem seems to have been resolved.
Scarecrow @ 50
i think maybe wayne white (from sourcewatch: “Wayne White, an adjunct scholar with the Washington-based Middle East Institute [1], is a member Group Four: Strategic Environment of the Iraq Study Group. [2] White was a “top Middle East analyst” for the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research for 26 years until March 2005. [3][4] He was the Bureau’s “principal Iraq analyst” from 2003-05 [5] and a “veteran” of the National Intelligence Estimate “process”. [6]”)
Scarecrow @ 61
The failure requires more failure tactic. That’s also the definition of insanity - using the known outcomes of failed action and repeating the action with the expectation of success.
What needs to happen is for a voice of reason to insert the notion that it isn’t an either/or choice. Rather, it requires complex solutions - multilateral competent diplomacy, multinational reconstruction and humanitarian aid. The US would be much better served to be a background source of support and non-military resources instead of the imperialistic military bully. But that notion never gets traction since no one ever addresses complex issues and complex solutions before having his or her 30 second sound byte time expire.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 5
Yeah, as opposed to the sensible actions he has taken to date. Most depressingly and frighteningly, OK, I fear you are right. That he could and would do something today that would be “rash” by yesterday’s standards, is a tragically likely probability.
y’all need to catch RFK Jr. yesterday on the Live Earth NY (i think) stage, connecting it all, and whoa do i mean all, up with massive political corruption and treason. check out the crowd’s response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv9q3PR_Tps
what if we didn’t need the rest of the oil that may or may not be buried in the middle east?
what if no one needed these crooks anymore?
Bravo, Scarecrow! Good posts from CHS, too.
Elliott @ 65
I don’t disagree about Ware’s integrity and sensitivity. But the question is policy; at some point you have to question the logic of moving further and further into a quagmire merely because the longer you stay, and the worse it gets, the harder it is to figure out how to get out. That logic has our capital in a death grip, and other people are paying with their lives.
QuakerGirl @ 60
exactly. no reason to give up… but i think our chances are better if we’re willing to face the inconvenient truths.
This regime must go. Here’s another reason why:
BushCo (and I bet this is Chevron Tanker Lady speaking) repeatedly fails to anticipate events, or lies about having been told what would happen, or acts surprised when the most predictable events occur. This behavior –their signature behavior! — disqualifies them to plan, organize, and manage a drawdown of our current ill-planned, ill-organized, and ill-managed occupation. See also: Bin Laden determined to attack in US; planes flown into skyscrapers; New Orleans’ levees; all of Israel and Palestine; the resurgence of a Russian strongman.
Utterly incompetent, they cannot be left to their own devices. Not to mention the evil sabotage to be expected from our criminally insane Vice President.
We need someone competent who will tell the truth about the problems of withdrawing from Iraq even if the truth is unpleasnt to plan our withdrawl from Iraq. We need General Shinseki.
Baby steps, baby steps, NYT.
Oy.
things come undone @ 74
good call. we need our own iraq study group with everyone who’s been kicked out by the bushes, or has quit in protest.
LS @ 55
I am hearing what you are telling me (us). And more importantly perhaps, I am listening.
There isn’t a single word in the NYT Editorial that progressives weren’t loudly warning about more than 5 years ago.
bunchapuqn’ hippies indeed.
i have paid attention to the assessments that leaving iraq will be completely horrifying … i just don’t see how staying now will be any *less* horrifying. it’s only getting worse. it’s only getting more complex. we are only more and more out of our depth.
i was thinking last night: based on stats and rates and predictions that it will take months to withdraw, if we withdraw, we will still be facing 4,000 - 5,000 dead americans for the iraq debacle. and how many more iraqis?
enough.
“Ware’s been there from the beginning, does that give any weight to his opinion on this? I’ve always felt he genuinely cared about the Iraqi people.”
I think he does really care and we should too.
They didn’t ask for us to come in, bomb the shit out of them, kill them, and destroy their country.
I didn’t vote for Bush either time but there should be some way to get us out and stabilize the country.
A pan-Arab alliance, The UN, whatever it takes.
The oil belongs to the Iraqi’s, let them vote on what to do with it with out our interference.
Bush and Cheney are responsible for this, and we as a nation will only be able to regain some semblance of respectability in the world by punishing those who are responsible for this incredible bum-fuck….
Slothrop @ 50
The best idea? Forget the Leadership. Convince the Judiciary Committee.
Thanks QuakerGirl.
I remember how squicky it was listening to all the apologia for John Kerry in 04 - I sure hope they don’t make the same mistake again, because, apalling as it might be to consider, if they nominate a neo-con, and enough of those on the left they take for granted wise up and defect, and then the Rovians pull as hard as they can on the rigged electoral system, and the media as usual acts as the propoaganda wing of the (R) Party, they just might manage to lose in 2008 and all their strategic jostling and triangulating and pollsniffing will have been in vain.
see, I’m secretly a (D) party pragmatist in disguise!
don’t nominate a neo-conservative, or you might lose the election…simple!
selise @ 77: that’s a great idea!
Nice icon Pach.
Scarecrow @ 72
You’re right Scarecrow, we have to get out of there and we have to get BushCo out of power.
I guess after listening to Ware (and I didn’t hear him today, but I have listened to him talk about this recently) I end up with such a deep fear for the Iraqis if we leave but OBVIOUSLY we can’t help them. And their civil war’s going to blaze no matter what.
Thanks for this SC
“The Bush/Cheney neocon vision of imposing US hegemony in the Middle East by force must be rejected, and those who pursued this vision must be systematically removed from their positions. No new strategy can be planned and executed until the Bush/Cheney regime is removed from office, along with the entire neocon national security team that designed, promoted, and implemented the current failed policies.
If we want to end the occupation, we have to start by liberating the White House. A malevolent and delusional crowd, cheered on by frightened warmongers, headed by Dick Cheney and embraced by the befuddled Bush himself, has a stranglehold on America’s national security policy, and they are not going to loosen their grip until forced to do so. The New York Times editorial is a highly important statement, but it is still missing the most essential paragraph. The regime must go.”
Joe Wilson could not agree with you more
Joe Wilson on Matthews show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbDZr6MnTZs
“hold to account all reps who have sold their souls to this small sect of neo-conservatives”
what we need now is leadership that loves peace and hates war: that is our only hope. otherwise it will be endless war.
As to Iraq. Something has to give. We are running out of soldiers.
scarecrow, I’m with you all the way on this one.
Let the purge begin.
“The reason the Iraq catastrophe is called a “quagmire” is because there are no simple or good options for getting out or staying in. Any withdrawal strategy is as fraught with risks as staying. Fashioning a plan that can extract America from its greatest foreign policy blunder ever will require the wisest, most honest and insightful leadership this country can muster. But does anyone seriously believe these qualities reside in the Bush White House?”
That is the best summary of the current fiasco that I have read. Bring them home now is a great concept, but I have seen no plan on how to do it. Re-deploy? Where? Kuwait and/or Kurdistan doesn’t want 100k troops. If draw-down is mandated, Bush/Cheney will make sure it is a bloody mess..”See we told you so”
Millineryman @ 85
Pach has a FB patch!
fdl reader @ 69
rfk jr.’s short speech is effing brilliant. thanks for the link. highly recommended.
Elliott @ 92
Yeah, very impressive and awe-inspiring. I’m afraid to get close though; he has magical powers.
selise @ 93: you are so welcome, i’m hoping this goes viral … i was blown away.
Bad News
Bush will complete his term
There will still be 100,000 troops or so as he boards Marine One for the last time in just over a year.
Good News- As he leaves, we will be in the process of a drawdown- and once begun it is unlikely to be reversed.
selise @ 93
I can’t play this video — any suggestions? I can hear applause and “power down.”
fdl reader @ 79
I have never seen an actual assessment of the tactic of rapid withdrawl, and I’ve looked for one. All I’ve heard is “It will be horrifying. It will be a disaster. It will be a tragic mistake”.
These are not assessments, or analysis, or debate. They are throw-away lines from people like McCain and especially Lieberman, designed to inspire fear, without even attempting to employ reason.
Thanks for the link 69 fdl reader
Kennedy “We can eliminate 100% of our Persian gulf oil”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 89
Lot’s of pickup truck drivin frat boys with W stickers in the window with nothing to do here in Athens.
fdl reader @ 70
Thanks for the link! That was great… The audience seemed pretty unhappy with the MSM, too…
If the commander in Chief told the Pentagon that she wanted plans for a total orderly and safe withdrawal within- say- six months, such plans would be forthcoming.
Sorry, I don’t agree that the NYT is really calling for withdrawal from Iraq.
They insist that we need to keep military bases in order to “stage effective raids and airstrikes against terrorist forces in Iraq”. They say nothing about protection of our embassy. They say nothing about the hydrocarbon law. In other words, they say nothing about the reasons why the Iraqis are attacking us.
It seems to me that this is just another version of the DLC “Plan B” for Iraq floated last February:
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm.....tid=254187
That is, withdraw our forces to our military bases, conduct “search and destroy” missions from there, make a show of looking for international cooperation, and in the meantime stay in Iraq while we figure out how to withdraw in an “orderly fashion”.
The problem is that all this assumes that the Iraqis want us to stick around and won’t start shooting us with even greater ardour when we have fewer troops. It’s just a fig leaf to stay in Iraq indefinitely in my opinion, while saying all the while that we “want to find a way out”.
It seems to me that we can’t just withdraw and leave all that oil. We must achieve victory and keep it. We’ll need it later anyway so why throw it away now?
With a bit more work democracy CAN be established in Iraq. And then we can move on to Iran and help those folks out.
The US will regain its status throughout the word. The administration just needs a few more months to work out all the details. Our secretary of state should and must be the point person to move things forward.
rwcole @ 95
That is the reality that we are going to have to work with over the next two years.
Anyone can get a FB patch.
Look at the fine print at the right side column: see where it says “register?”
;-]
Curious in Central Texas @ 96
will rip an mp3 and post if for you. definitely worth a listen. will make a transcript too.
Scarecrow @ 62
Micheal Ware has really been pushing the idea that Iran is responsible for the violence in Iraq for the last several weeks. Was almost pushing a pre-emptive strike on Iran…this made me question Ware’s intentions with his reporting.
I will look for that coverage
Pachacutec @ 105
How did you do the “little blue square thingy”?
RevDeb @ 8
Ohhhh YES!! And anticipating, impatiently, anxiously, fretfully.
We need, among other things, to demand
ANSWERS & ACTION
from all those who’ve been nervously whimpering that impeachment would be too disruptive, too time-consuming, too, too…
WHAT could possibly be worse than what we have now?!
The Bush administration is sick to its core.
That gang shows neither ability nor inclination to face the future with even a thimble-full of honesty or courage.
Thank you Scarecrow for your clear voice.
I dream of a landslide of support for your vision. But it won’t happen by itself.
We need to fan out and urge on any efforts to remove this dreadful administration from power.
Bush needs to be seen as still believing in the war and prosecuting it aggressively through the balance of his term- this at least leaves the door open to the interpretation by history that he was doin the right thing and the next prez fucked it up.
What really turns me on about the occupation is how far the price of a gallon of gas (and a barrel of oil) has dropped since we indulged the president in his little invasion of Iraq. We’re so much better off and safer than we were a little over seven very long years ago. And then of course we have over 3,500 of our soldiers dead and countless more maimed. And let’s not leave out all the dead Iraqi children as a result of our fearless, mission accomplished, leader’s actions. Oh yes, we’re much better off now.
fdl reader @69: thanks for the link to RFK Jr.’s speech. Powerful.
raven @ 100
Draft ‘em. ;0)
So — the Senate GOP is saying to Bush: Implement yer Daddy’s friends’ plan (ISG) one year late. My prediction: if the Senate passes a recommendation to implement ISG, W will propose another surge, this time to 200,000 troops. Petraeus is likely to want more troops in September in any event. What General doesn’t? And his vaunted counterinsurgency handbook calls for more than are there now, anyway.
In Bushworld, evil can only be combatted by attacking it harder. Rethinking the plan of attack or regrouping to attack differently tomorrow: these indicators of weakness only embolden the evil enemy. (And yes, I am reading GGreenwald, why do you ask?)
Steve @ 109
If you register here and input your FB profile page in the field provided, the icon will appear automatically, allowing people to link to your profile right from here in the comments.
rwcole @ 102
;->
Hazard @ 104
withdraw and leave all that oil. We must achieve victory and keep it. We’ll need it later anyway so why throw it away now?
With a bit more work democracy CAN be established in Iraq. And then we can move on to Iran and help those folks out.
hazard
Greg Palast and a few others believe that some wanted to invade Iraq not to turn the oil on but to turn the oil off, create chaos (Micheal Ledeens “creative destruction” theory being implemented.
DrenchedOtter @ 103
Staying is not leaving.
DrenchedOtter @ 103
There was an overlooked story this week about the conversion of the temporary CSH hospital to a huge and permanent base hospital just outside Baghdad. The commander - a physician - was delighted to explain how it would be permanent. It is also a perfect location for a staging hospital in the event of an Iranian incursion or invasion, and it is staffed with a mix of Air Force and Army medical personnel.
Teddy
It seems pretty clear that even the present troop level cannot be sustained past March—all parties agree with that. Another bigger surge is fantasyland- can’t happen. No way we could build up the military fast enough to do it before Bush leaves office- unless he agrees to a draft.
March is the last gasp of this “plan” and we already know that it will fail–the administration now admits that it’s going backwards against it’s own measures…
The Prez will try to hold the line- but it’s over.
Adie @ 116
During the happy meeting between Gen. Lute and the Senate Armed Services Cmte. some weeks ago, at least one senator told Lute exactly that–”Get your Withdrawl Plan Ready”.
We can force the American People to reexamine the causes/lies that led up to the war with Iraq by having Democratic MSM talking heads call for Judy Miller to lose her Pulitzer Prize.
Her Scooter given lies that she did not fact check got us into this war. Plus by doing this we point out to the American people that Scooter has a history of lying.
Which will help keep the Scooter Clemency issue fresh in people’s minds. Congress could Subpoena Scooter, Judy Miller and the committe that decides who gets the Pulitzer. If Judy loses the Pulitzer for repeating Scooter’s lies that got us into war without fact checking we got front page scandal for weeks.
The oil thing is crucial..
Bush needs to extract oil concessions from Iraq while he still holds power over them. By March- that power will be waning.
On the other hand, american oil companies will not want to cough up cash to purchase concessions that might disappear in an Iraqi revolution. Security of the country is crucial to make concessions viable….
It’s a race against the clock- and the clock is winning.
I’m sorry but I don’t see the grounds for celebration in the NYT editorial. Withdrawal of US forces to the Kurdish north - home of a large portion of the oil reserves and of an ongoing but unmentioned ethnic cleansing operations by the Kurds - as well as to Kuwait … is not a withdrawal from Iraq.
A message from the Dali Lama at the Live Earth concert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....Q&NR=1
Don’t know if anyone has seen this on Rawstory (my links don’t work):
“TALLAHASSEE - Internal city memos show the issue of Republican “vote caging” efforts in Jacksonville’s African-American neighborhoods was discussed in the weeks before the 2004 election, contradicting recent claims by former Duval County Republican leader Mike Hightower - the Bush-Cheney campaign’s local chairman at the time.”
Bang!!
Thanks for another wonderful post Scarecrow.
How about the following line for repetative use?
Bush and Cheny are holding our troops hostage in Iraq in order to avoid impeachment.
Teddy San Fran posted in bold above:
Teddy, I have heard the same words used by Pelosi and Clinton in the last week or so… New talking point line perhaps? If so we need to say… well Nancy Drew, why don’t you tell us what they are?!
DrenchedOtter @ 103
Under that oft-used category - repeated enough, it becomes truth:
Sorry, but Huffington Post.com doesn’t agree with you.
The administration is hangin it’s hat on the fact that much of the sunni insurgent community has had it with “Al Queda in Iraq” and is now fighting against them.
Since the Al Queda in Iraq part of the problem is miniscule anyway- it’s overheated hype.
casual observer @ 122
Ah, Czar Lute. I thought it was interesting that when Lugar made his speech and got so much coverage, the WH sent NSA Hadley, not Czar Lute, to meet with him, even though the WH said Lute would deal with all matters Iraq and Hadley would not.
things come undone @ 123
That makes sense that every thing that Judy “I was fucking right” Miller has written should be fact checked including what she wrote about Al Queda. If it turns out to be howash…pull the Pullitzer
Revoke Miller’s Pullitzer
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff10242005.html
Scarecrow @ 131
Hillary, for one, told him to get a withdrawal plan ready.
forgot to mention here recently - I hate this Goddam fucking war! The only place most American troops in Iraq are going soon is next door - to the east. The only reasons it hasn’t happened yet are process-related. Plus, Dick Cheney’s running around trying to discipline or replace recalcitrant generals, admirals and planning teams.
Just how high would the Stockmarket be if we had not invaded Iraq and gas had stayed at less than $2 a gallon. Where are all the probusiness WallStreet types who claim to know that the “cough ” “business of America is business” (Calvin Coolidge). Iraq is bad for business bad for the stockmarket and I would not trust any stockpicker/financial planner who supported the President.
Siun @ 125
Staying is not leaving.
Siun @ 125
Uh, I didn’t exactly call for this.
Wars are generally good for the economy and for the stockmarket–and if ya add tax cuts to a war- you have a bonanza- a lollapalooza of economic stimulus that would bring 150 year old economic dick to erection..
The trouble with it is the threat of inflation–I can’t figure out why we haven’t seen it running rampant.
Scarecrow is right. They ignore that Bush won’t pull out no matter what. But I think the NYT is savy enough to know that. They are simply trying to put out there that pulling the troops out is a reasonable alternative, in response to the bullshit that’s being put out there, that it’s impossible to pull our troops out.
By putting a sane strategy on record, it gives credence to the argument that we can, in fact, pull out of Iraq in a relatively safe and effective manner.
In my opinion, we could be out of there in three days.
Scarecrow @ 137
There is no such thing as Iraq. The Limey’s made it up.
One way or another, we’ll be out of active daily fighting in Iraq within three years.
It’s going to require a lot of pride swallowing- and there will always be a significant part of the nation who- years from now- when things are going very badly in the middle east- will say that “It’s all because the cowards retreated in Iraq”.
This is VERY dangerous- and could lead to neo colonial movement within ten- twenty years.
selise @ 72
Definitely no reason to give up. They just make me fighting mad. I am really persistent. I suspect this site is loaded with people who stand up and speak directly to power. Doesn’t strike me as a shy timid crowd anywhere around here.
casual observer @ 122
ONE little thing we can do, even the decidedly non-expert types like myself:
Keep an eye out for such events, and praise that congresscritter with a call, e-mail, whatever.
Don’t only shout the negative. Even a congresscritter needs a pat on the head once in a while *sigh*.
But stay close by with that riding crop, sharp stick, pitchfork, Border collie - whatever turns yer clock - in case the critter should have second thots & stray from the path.
Need a manual, don’t we?
“Toughlove for Congresscritters.”
[i know, i know, it’s all in there at FDL ;->]
Kathleen @ 108
I hope this is not the case, but I would tend to believe Ware’s saying it before I would Bush or his rent-a-generals.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 23
Except Ron Paul 2008
Its great that people are finally waking up to this BS war. But to think that the “war” in Iraq is going badly…think again.
This is all part of the plan. Do you really think this war is a blunder????
This war is going exactly how W and his puppet master(s) want.
A long sustained war. Unstable goverment, warring religious factions instigated by operatives on both sides. Permanent military bases to control oil and a strategic advantage to invade Syria and Iran next. For the oil rich land of Iraq to be divided up and sold and controlled and oil pipelines constructed.
All for reaping profits for private contractors! Haliburton, etc….
Nothing in politics happens by accident!
You must watch this!
Ed*ard Teller @ 134
Ditto. the last 6 and a half years have been a nightmare for our country one can only imagine what a nightmare the Bush administration has been for the Iraqi people and others in the middle east.
The “cakewalk in Iraq” next stop Iran zealots need to be taken out..they are a dangerous sect .
OK, I think is is starting to be time to start talking about how to make impeachment and conviction or resignation palatable to the rethugs. For all my rants I know we can not force regime change before the election without them. I think the pressure their districts and states will eventually have them looking for a way out as they will recognize that they are headed for defeat in 2008 and it is just a matter of cutting their losses. So what will be required? I think these are the sort of terms we need to think about.
1) Cheney resigns or is impeached. This has to be the first thing to happen of course.
2) A VP replacement that is acceptable to both parties needs to be put in place. Powell might be a name to float here. He would not be a big threat in 2008, he really does have a modicum of integrity and common sense, and he does not have too many enemies in the Senate. He may be willing to promise no pardons and if he does he may keep the promise.
3) Bush must then be impeached and convicted.
4) Gonzo has to go. Powell could then fire him or he could be impeached. I prefer impeachment since there is a good case to be made that he could not then be pardoned for succeeding criminal conviction.
5) Rice needs to be impeached.
6) A new AG needs to be appointed who will pursue criminal charges against all of the above and others. It may be that this can wait until after 2009 when there is a Dem admin to prosecute.
7) It may actually make sense to offer to send the members to BushCo to The Hague since they don’t have a death penalty the war criminal may want the deal.
The NYT also fails to mention paid militia, quite possibly as many in number as our troops. If they don’t leave Iraq first and completely, they never will.
real
Call us after the first impeachment.
Scarecrow … sorry, did not mean to imply you did but I am seeing too much “thank heavens the NYT finally gets it right” in my email box and other places.
I swear, if Bush were smart, he’d just *tell* us that yesterday he withdrew all the troops.
BobbyG rants in today’s paper.
Adie @ 129
Oh I agree that’s the headline, but if you read the whole article you find out that “orderly exit” is defined to be so difficult that it is perhaps unachievable, and that the NYT considers withdrawing our forces to US military bases in northern Iraq to be an “exit”. It seems to me they’re just playing with language: saying they’d like to get out, but we have to wait until it can be done in an “orderly” way. I think it’s just a rhetorical change, it’s not a real change in position.
Real evidence of voter fraud in Florida…memos..see Rawstory.
Scarecrow @ 130
Is that right? I didn’t know that Hadley was dispatched to try and tape that egg back together.
Maybe Lute was still in his ‘new employee orientation’ and couldn’t make it over to the Hill. You know, the one where they show him the Rove powerpoint and ask him to think creatively about how he can help our people.
QuakerGirl @ 141
no. but we’re human… and therefore susceptiable to wishful thinking.
Eureka Springs @ 147
I see this as the way we continue with this NeoCon policy of invading and occupying. Blackwater must be comparable to the Military. Does anyone know? And, there are many little Blackwaters out there.
The goals for Iraq all along included military bases and oil concessions….
Both of these are probably seen by most as “vital american interests” and they will not be given up easily by a president of either political party….that’s what makes Richardson’s call for “Total Withdrawal” unique. Few others will join him in that call.
If this has already been linked a bazillion times today, it bears repeating. Frank Rich’s column, “A Profile in Cowardice” via truthout.org is platinum today.
“There was never any question that President Bush would grant amnesty to Scooter Libby, the man who knows too much about the lies told to sell the war in Iraq. The only questions were when, and how, Mr. Bush would buy Mr. Libby’s silence. Now we have the answers, and they’re at least as incriminating as the act itself. They reveal the continued ferocity of a White House cover-up and expose the true character of a commander in chief whose tough-guy shtick can no longer camouflage his fundamental cowardice.“
Exactly. Bush has been a cut-and-runner his entire life. The hallmark of a bully is the coward within.
Eureka Springs @ 148
Not sure they talk about our paid miilitia either (Blackwater and many, many others).
Michael Ware’s source for the Iran is doing it story is a general who was sent direct from duty in the White House to be the new press minder …
for more, see the links here:
Bring em on … Hezbollah edition
Via @ 144
I’ve seen a couple of these segments in which Ware says it’s true that Iranian elite forces are training/equipping Shia/Iraqis to fight in Iraq. What they do with that is another question — against us? Likely. but against the Sunni’s who are resisting the shia takeover - much more likely. I can’t think of any reason why the Iranians would not be doing this, both to undermine America’s presence in their region and to ensure there is no Sunni resurgence in Iraq.
But look at the logic we put out here: the Iranians are evil because they are trying to influence the outcome in Iraq; therefore the US, who has an unquestioned right to dominate Iraq, has a right to oppose the Iranians.
Say again?
QuakerGirl @ 156
and we’ve built them some real nice bases over there.
When the Iraqi people figure out what their government already knows- that the US is planning permanent military bases in Iraq in order to protect US oil industries- they may not be pleased…
Elliott @ 161
As long as this admin is in power, they are not going to leave - no matter what Congress or anyone else says. It is up to the military to say no more, but they won’t because those currently in command believe in the mission.
Scarecrow @ 131
dang that looks outta place! sorry, i must have prickly-heat ‘r somethin’ to be so touchy, but my [;->], that had been left amid the above exchange during copying, was NOT related to the comment printed above. it was a response to rwcole referring to a prez. given by a “she” (Pelosi, perchance rwc?)
sorry all for the outburst
*grabs ice-pack & adjusts fan*
rwcole @ 149
If we’re not part of what makes it happen there will be nothing to call about for sure.
The military already has its mission defined:
It would appear that our job is to fill in the blanks: the date to begin backing out.
TeddySanFran @ 119
we have to stay so we can leave, ‘k?
Well, it’s important to include the evil Iranians in America’s forever-war justification — most Americans understand that the Iranians have always been evil. Now we are battling in Iraq the people who flew planes into the WTC and the Iranians are helping them — forever-war is the only option.
DrenchedOtter @ 152
Not arguing with you at all.
Maybe you should take it up with huffpo.
You’ve certainly got a point.
’stuff’ happens in headlines, eh?
Siun @ 150
Pach described it as “baby steps.” I think it’s more important than that, but still not nearly enough and not even internally consistent for what it does — as you pointed out. Getting to the point where you realize and accept that your country has royally screwed the pooch is a tough process for everyone.
Along with Scarecrow’s very good point, remember that the Iraqis most closely tied to Iran are SCIRI - headed by Al Hakim - also known as head of a family of oil smugglers in the south and head of the Badr Brigades (major death squad force) who George Bush welcomed to the White House as a great friend.
see the photo linked here in the discussion of 50% of oil production in the South vanishing
Is it too far off to have an “office pool” on how many troops will be in Iraq the day Bush leaves office? I’ll pick 90,000.
I don’t understand how half the southern oil can be disappearing without the active involvement of, shall we say, very large oil players. There isn’t much use for unrefined oil. It has to get to refineries, pipelines, or tankers. If these players are the same who smuggled oil during the Iraqi food program under Saddam, we’re back to Marc Rich, Scooter’s pardon client. If they are other players, then it’s Halliburton who’s enabling the smuggling.
here’s a post from DemFromCT on the editorial shift, goes along with Scarecrow’s post
Opinion: Bush Stands Alone In His Failed Iraqi Democracy Plans
DemFromCT
hey SC. Good choice for photo.
is shooter winding ‘im up or shoving ‘im fwd?
QuakerGirl @ 156
“If they don’t leave first, they will never leave”; that is because they will be dead.
Bit of a history of US troop levels in Iraq. The initial plans contemplated a rapid draw down after invasion to a level that was considered adequate to protect american interests- it probably still is the target.
“Initial war plans for Iraq had an initial American invasion force of about 130,000 soldiers and Marines, which would drop quickly to as few as 30,000 to 50,000 by the end of 2003.
As of October 2005 80,000 of the Guard and Reserve forces were deployed in 40 nations. The largest portion was in Iraq, where Guard units accounted for eight of 15 Army combat brigades.
As of 01 March 2006 there were 133,000 US troops in Iraq, down from about 160,000 in December 2005 during parliamentary elections. The Pentagon cut Army combat brigades to 15 from 17. The 25th Infantry Division from Hawaii, along with seven other major military units are scheduled to deploy as part of the Summer 2006 troop rotation. The Pentagon hoped to reduce the US presence in Iraq to less than 100,000 by the end of 2006.
By March 2006 some 7,000 Schofield Barracks soldiers were preparing for deployment in August 2006. The soldiers deployed in April 2006 to the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, California. The 25th Infantry Division would command Multinational Division North-Central operations in northern Iraq, with four to five brigades, one of which will be the 3rd Brigade Combat Team from Hawaii. At that time, more than 1,000 Marines of the 3rd Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, and Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 463 were already on their way to Iraq.
On 15 March 2006 it was reported that a battalion of about 700 soldiers from the 2nd Brigade, 1st Armored Division would deploy into Iraq from their base in Kuwait to provide extra security during the holiday of Ashura, which ended 20 March 20006. The unit is one of the three battalions that were originally were scheduled to deploy to Iraq but were held in Kuwait as a standby force. Nearly 4,100 soldiers in the 34th Brigade Combat Team left for Iraq in late March 2006. The soldiers were from Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Nebraska and New Jersey. The deployment included 2,600 from Minnesota’s National Guard, the largest contingent from the state to see combat since World War II.
By June 2006 the US had 14 combat brigades in Iraq, and a total of 127,000 troops. According to a 25 June 2006 report in the New York Times, a draft plan calls for significant reductions in the American military presence in Iraq by the end of 2007. The initial drawdown would involve the First Brigade of the 10th Mountain Division and the Third Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division are scheduled to rotate out of Iraq in September 2006, and would not be replaced. By December 2006, the number of US combat brigades in Iraq could be as low as 10 to 12, seven to eight brigades by June 2007 and five or six brigades by December 2007. Combat brigades, which typically number about 3,500 troops, account for only a portion of 127,000 American troops in Iraq, and other support units would not draw down as quickly. “
It’s time to remove the tumor and as much of it’s growth as possible. I’m so glad to be reading opinions that reflect the direness of our situation. The neocon infestation will not go willingly. They will literaly have to be excised from our government. Start at the top, well, Cheney, Junior, Condi, on down to the toadies at Justice. If this country is to EVER hold itself up for exampley before the people of the Earth, it must be done. And soon.
Elliott says @ 160
and we’ve built them some real nice bases over there.
Elliott - You and I and everyone on this site and across America paid for it with our hard earned tax dollars. Ticks me off!
Hasn’t Colin Powell said the President never asked him about going to war in Iraq? And now this:
Dates, please, Mr. Powell. When exactly did this conversation take place? And more, please, on the President’s response.
On the question of mercenaries - no one has a count of how many are in Iraq (though we are paying all of them a lot of money). Most are hired through contracts with the State Department and there’s been very little “oversight.” Reliable estimates are that the mercenary force is roughly equivalent to the number of troops but until Congress insists on a full accounting, we won’t know.
The upcoming DoD authorization bill does include a prevision asking for a “report” on the terms under which mercenaries serve and which laws apply to them … but does not seem, as of today, to require either a full count or enforcement of any standards.
QuakerGirl @ 180
It’s not like there aren’t better things to do with that money, let me count the ways
But it more than ticks me off. It scares me, really.
Its ominous.
TeddySanFran @ 181
my first reaction was
“a whole two and half hours!?”
TeddySanFran @ 173
Either that or a lot of Iraqis siphoning oil with a garden hose and carrying it in buckets to a home-made refiner brought by mule across the mountains.
Siun @ 182
It also seems to me that including a request for a report in the DoD authorization bill is simply smoke and mirrors, especially if the mercs are actually funded through State. “We’ve asked the President to report to us about this” hardly counts for anything when you ask the wrong agency. We’ve reached the point where both Houses of Congress need constant, televised hearings all day/week long.
TSF @ 181
turning aspens, turning tides … but are they *all* lying all the f-ing time? i guess …
has bushco EVER submitted *any* legally required reports to congress????
this piece scarecrow is one of the best pieces EVAH
you have made points nobody has realized
that this administration, specifically bush and cheney will do WHATEVER it takes to UNDERMINE any other strategy
why would anyone think they wouldn’t?
after all, they’ve undermined their own “supposed” strategy they would SURELY undermine the oposing strategy
it would seem the only way for America to have a chance at a change of course is to relieve “the decider” from his position of “decidering”
a terrific read scarecrow
Mel’s Diner Chicken Soup
RevDeb, I thought about a New Mexican ginger/lime chicken soup recipe for you, but it looked very involved and this looks simple and filling. Hope you feel better.
Agreed. Congress could put a stop to the use of mercenaries very easily by zeroing out the budget items that are being used to fund them. Halliburton, Blackwater, et al, would pull out in a jiffy if their invoices weren’t being paid. Just more evidence that Congress doesn’t really want this war to end.
Curious in Central Texas @ 96
here’s a small mp3 (2.3MB) of the audio from youtube.
Teddy … try this on for size - a Business week description of how shady oil deals are done by the Rich Boys
gotta say, the connections of Scooter, Clintons, Israel etc all in one guy makes me queasy
The more interesting oped is the one under Frank Rich by the people’s editor about how the Bush Admin has been weaving “Al Queda in Iraq” into every speech and press release they can. Apparently that’s why we’re there now, to defeat “Al Queda in Iraq”.
QuakerGirl @ 61
Ron Paul is our only defense against Hillary, Bill, and their Neocon strategy to bomb Iran.
Okay — you’ve all been good, so you get a new thread — face the snark with Thers.
GeorgeSimian @ 194
Yes, it’s important the MSM is picking up on what a lot of bloggers said months ago, and then Glenn Greenwald hammered the MSM on this a couple weeks ago. Progress is a shorter lead time from blogs to MSM.
Elliott @ 184
Keep thinking about those NSA intercepts being demaded by Licoln Chaffee, Kerry, Biden, Kennedy, Boxer during the Bolton nomination hearings. Rumor has it that the NSA may have been taping Colin Powell’s negotiations with Iran.
…insightful, comprehensive, Scarecrow you should gather all these together and publish them for educational purposes…
But one line stood out for me, in the editorial, that really simplified the entire issue…
“The editors acknowledge coming to their conclusion reluctantly.”
There’s a heavy sack o’ well-rotted cow manure, don’t ya know!!
…the failed to publish the real story, in spite of a blogosphere that methodically articulated the truth daily, the same truth they now seem to embrace, like dazed parade-goers who just realized the Emporer is “nekkid’ as a jaybird”…
But at the top of the MSM heap, they had this latest “conclusions” waiting on the shelf, they were only reluctant to take them down and publish them, stalling for the profit motive to turn with the political tides.
For five years they (the MEDIA) have milked our fear and loathing, pushing us inexorably into a war based on lies they so desperately wanted us to believe.
Now they will shamelessly milk our moral indignation against the same war they promoted, as the pundits all revise their own written history, as if they have been proponents of peace all along.
HYPOCRITES!!!
Elliott @ 184
lest we forget, we have our first confirmed case of adult ADD sitting in the White House., 2 1/2 hours is probably well beyond his attention span in the first place.
My question is, why didn’t Powell spend 2 1/2 minutes telling someone in the media that Bush wouldn’t listen to at least ONE important General… who also happened to be Secretary of State.
Then he should and could have resigned with honor, instead of the virtual dishonorable discharge he got from this administration.
Most of us now wonder if he can fix the mess he made for himself by playing mouthpiece at the UN for the war profiteers, Republicans, and all the little neocon goebel/goerings.
PLovering @ 195
Senator Schuemer is a super hawk on Israel and an arch liberal on everything else.
I keep wondering if Schuemer was part and parcel to taking Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty out. (McNulty involved in the investiation and prosecution of the A*P*C Rosen espionage trial that has been delayed 7 times)
Why is it that so many the so called liberals take a sharp turn to the far “right”(wrong) on the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
selise @ 37
I’ve had a long chance to go over thoughts of w/d based on the link you had here to White’s interview and we’ve thrown a couple of things out betw ourselves.
I think what we need to do is decide to withdraw, retreat, run away, whatever u wanna call it but without the necessary recriminations.
One of the things that would delay a w’dl is removing the mountains of equipment we have there. Well, there’s precedent for leaving it there. We left all sorts of stuff behind in Vietnam in our precipitous retreat from that place. Why not intentionally leave some equipment behind here?
It’s a given that there is going to be a vicious civil war here once we go. The Shia will be financed by Iran, the Sunnis by Saudi Arabia and probably the other Sunni sheikdoms in the area. The Kurds are going to be on their own and they will be the first group to suffer from our exit. Maybe if we w/d leaving all our stuff in place the various groups will be able to arm themselves as well as they can without having to initially resort to outside interference.
I don’t think anyone believes the Kurds will be allowed to form a viable Kurdistan. They will be attacked by Turkey and by the other groups within the country; the Sunni and Shia might even join forces to remove them from the equation before Turkey gets a chance to exterminate them.
We need to be concerned with removing the resources we have there who bleed and cry and dream about home. Fuck all the materiel that’s there. We found the money for them before, I don’t think the military-industrial machine here will have much trouble finding willing conspirators in both parties who will appropriate money to replace the stuff that doesn’t have parents, spouses, and kids waiting for them.
Toys can be replaced, our kids can’t.
JEP @ 200
Powell may be the worst of the lot. He knew what would happen, he knew better and he probably could have stopped it. He betrayed his pledge to never let another Vietnam happen and he betrayed his country.
PLovering @ 195
Ron Paul was on Stephanapolous news program this morning.
http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext=ron paul&type=
Have folks read John Deans latest on Cheney?
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20070629.html
Ron Paul is a wing-nut lunatic..Howie Klein has done several posts on this guy; here is one.
http://downwithtyranny.blogspo.....erica.html
Margot @ 190
Any chance of posting the other one? You’ve got me salivating here thinking of ginger and lime in a chicken soup.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 5
Could that possibly include both him and cheney going to the bunker and doing the honorable thing?
james @ 202
in the end, i agree that if our only choices are a fucked up withdrawal or a fucked up occupation - i choose withdrawal… no waiting around for our ideal “pony” withdrawal.
that doesn’t mean i think we shouldn’t try for a less fucked up withdrawal - just that we shouldn’t delay withdrawal on the hopes that if we wait, we’ll get to have our beautiful well planned withdrawal.
the plans for a less fucked up withdrawal should be happening now - while we’re trying to pressure our idiot politicians to wrap their heads around the idea that their dreams of world-wide domination are a nightmare.
it’s not just the lives that will be lost if we leave the equipment behind, its the lives lost if we don’t take our iraqi allies with us, and it’s the lives lost if the kurds over reach, and it’s the lives lost if the violence isn’t contained w/in iraq.
we ought to try to get it (withdrawal) more right than wrong. but not at the expense of delaying withdrawal…. at least that’s my opinion today.
Here is the FDL post that documents lunacy and racism of Ron Paul.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200.....rld-order/
Steve @ 210
but paul doesn’t exsist in a vacuum. the issue for me is how does his lunacy and bigotry compare to others running for the presidency.
the fact that he is against attacking iran makes him looks sane compared to some others who insist on keeping that option “on the table”.
RevDeb @ 49
RevDeb, here’s my prayers for you. I was divorced two years ago, bought a new house, and have still to completely unpack. Shortly after that I had an accident which severed my median nerve, radial artery, and all the tendons to my left hand. I’m still living out of boxes and going through therapy to get the use of my hand back….five guitars around the house sitting there laughing at me while I try to get feeling back in my left hand and a doctor’s appointment on Tuesday because of elevated PSA numbers.
We are never given more than we can handle, i firmly believe that either as a person or in our current situation as a nation. All this nonsense with these criminals in the WH is making some people very savvy wrt politics and what it means to be Americans who never would have become that way without this current threat.
Little kiss on the forehead and hope you feel better.
selise @ 211
His position on Iraq is not a result of reason or morality but is a by-product of his “New World Order” paranoia. “Even the blind squirrel can find an acorn once and a while”
Too bad it comes from the NewYorkTimes OP-ED page. With the Bush/Cheney regime that likely is seen as a source to snort at and scorn.
Cheney more and more seems like the guy who is going to be willing to push for a big Iran play just to contaminate any American pull out from Iraq or long held American ME economic based foreign affairs and ongoing/increasing military presence.
Would expect Bush/Cheney may/will pull a classic “blame Iraq and Iraqi leaders” ploy and via traditional CIA means play a game of remove and install in the Green Zone. This of course will likely enough lead to more chaos in Iraq(is that even still possible?) and by doing so opens more portals for increased heavy handed American militarism via ruthless suppression,full air war unleashing and a push to fracture Iraq so deeply that leaving is viewed still as being the worst choice to make in DC.
The Bush/Cheney regime is good at war in DC and it is that fact that started this Iraq mess,continues this Iraq mess and will likely sentence Iraq and the Iraqi people to more very terrible American gaming still to come.
The oil angle and the ME intimidation angle are long established American ME “bi-partisan” DC doctrines going back to the 1950’s.
Cheney is very good at mis-direction in DC and it is certain the DC tribe/clan he heads up will not just give up,give in or walk away.
If DC impeachment climate continues to get warmer and indeed goes hot Cheney will very much become a big target… a murky place to enter with this DC player/gamer who as G.W.’s “hidden hand” is very adept at playing DC games.See Libby story.
American militarists will resist pulling out on account of lost prestige and their lust for a ME Iwo Jima moment. Taking on them requires the use of money weapons and there has been little evidence of that happening in DC these past five years. The Pentagon/Arms Industry Party is a very real “third” DC party. They play rough and will cockup any ideas or DC thrusts that undermine their interests or agendas…real,mythical or bottom line $$$.
Roll in the GWOT wild cards that are very useful in ME matters,roll in Israels deeply vested DC ME interests and goals and roll in how easy the Persian Gulf can be made into a real war zone via “error” or set desire.
Any pullout thrust must be won in DC first.
Cheney is/will be formidable at DC pushback play.
That may/could change if DOJ and Libby gambit stench/blowback paves way to very real possible impeachment talk in DC.
It all comes back to the fight(s)in DC that the DC DEMS must find a spine for in first place and become tough enough to take past the first,third,fifth and seventh rounds with the GOP and Bush/Cheney WH. DC DEMS do have “find a spine” issues these days.This does not help. See Joe Lieberman. He should have been confronted a while back already. Whats up with the DC DEMS and Joe?
Jan.2009 is still far off these days in DC.
Steve @ 213
why do you think that?
his position on terrorism is well reasoned - he’s even read robert pape (that impressed me).
indywally @ 208
This has, fwiw, struck me as a very real possibility from day 1 with that pair, OKK.
I think most people would agree with you to some extent. As to any particular melting point?
There are so many possibilities since, when you think about it, they’ve teetered on the edge so long, with so many hair-raisingly-manic policies. How can anyone claim to do more than make an educated guess? Might just as well take a number in that office-pool-idea somewhere upthread. We’re officially in la-la-land, and have been ever since before the coup of 2000. jmho
That being said, the sooner they’re outta office, the better, in my book. Why wait? Why play around as if all is “normal”. It’s NOT!
There is one guy that has had a plan from day 1. It is the only plan that will work. His name is Kucinich, remember? The only guy that is right on every issue the left is supposed to care about. But he is short, not a charmer, hasn’t made the kind of deals necessary to get the moola, has this funny idea that war is not the natural state of humans and is head over heels about his wife.
215 comments and Ron Paul gets more attention.
Just remember that when you yell for impeachment, who actually has a bill pending. Dennis Kucinich.
51 - way epu’d Scarecrow - but I don’t think that is really a huge concern.
Quite clearly the WH and its loyal Bushies in DOD, State, DOJ, JCS, etc. do not generate good or accurate or worthwhile information and analysis. But information is everywhere and accessible through lots of sources.
Almost nothing involving many of the issues is subject to an effective information stranglehold. Rand’s public info on the ME situation has been far better than Bush’s private info. The main area where a stranglehold exists is in the diplomati arena with actually making deals. Congress can’t do much there - but they can definitely set up committees and request that the Saudis, Jordanians, refugee NGOs etc. meet and work out plans and then give testimony and presentations based on that info. The military can be asked to make reports on possible scenarios and work with Congress as well.
Lots Congress can do if only they will do it, and Cheney’s stranglehold is mostly on his own choked chicken, not on the real and important issues the NYt points out. IMO, FWIW
john in california @ 217
kucinich got money from me for his run in 2004. i’m still a bit pissed at him for not talking about the war during the 2004 dnc - that after all is why so many people (like me) supported him.
that said, i may support him again - if gore doesn’t run and if edwards doesn’t need my support to beat obama/clinton.
They NEVER intend to leave Iraq–too much money being made, too many other countries to occupy and take over their oil, too. That’s what the Times, the Congress, the other corporate media, and, as a result, the American people, don’t understand. That is why Kristol, et al, are on the TV everyday cheerleading this operation. If these people so want to end the world, why don’t they just get in the bunker together and leave the rest of us to run the place?
selise @ 215
The only reason is that I think David Neiwert is a reliable judge of character. This is his final statement in his FDL post:
Ron Paul may or may not be a racist — and arguing about it is likely to end up nowhere. But what is unmistakably, ineluctably true about Ron Paul is that he is an extremist: a conspiracy theorist, a fear-monger, and an outright nutcase when it comes to monetary, tax, and education policy. The more believers and sympathizers he gathers, the worse off the rest of us will be.
Steve @ 221
but david’s statement says nothing about iraq or foreign policy (only monetary, tax and education policy).
Steve @ 210
Unlike almost all other GOPer and DIMer candidates, Ron Paul is a firm supporter of our Constitution.
What a refreshing set of principles.
“Most Americans want to win war
Frank Padgett of Ruston recently wrote that radical conservative Republican right-wing warmongers are willing to throw away the lives of our brave men and women.
It’s useless to argue with him, but I remind those who read his letter that Iraq violated 17 United Nations resolutions and refused all demands to disarm, shooting at our planes daily.
I would not have waited 17 times to react.
Padgett says conservatives are the ones who bring shame and disgrace to our country. I remind him that it was his Democratic hero who for two years called our soldiers murderers, rapists and terrorists on a daily basis.
It’s his Democratic hero who won a majority in the Senate in November 2006 and fought so hard to defund our military while at war. I remind him that after the Democrats said they would not fund the war, they passed funding by a vote of 80-14. This is now a Democratic Party-funded war.
Padgett said the majority in the country feels the war cannot be won. That’s why his Democrat Congress has 14 percent approval rating. Padgett is wrong. Most Americans feel the war can be won. The only way we can lose this war is for the politicians to make the decision to lose.
We should speak to some of the hundreds of soldiers coming and going through Atlanta and see what they think.
Padgett wants to fly the white flag. Most of America wants and prays for victory.
God bless our country’s military.
Mark Corbin
West Monroe”
This was printed today in my old home town newspaper. I sent them the following in response: “I ask that the Monroe Newstar World cease printing opinion letters referring to “winning the war in Irag” without first ensuring that the letter contains some definition of what constitutes winning. People should be able to freely express their opinions, but a newspaper has an obligation to ensure that there is at least some logical depth to items they print. Quite frankly, the majority of opinion letters printed in this paper would make great punch-lines in a Saturday Night Live skit.”
I urge anyone reading this to do the same. Find a small town paper in a red area and submit something similar, daily.
Sorry, I posted this on the wrong thread earlier.
Josh @145: Bingo.
Permanent bases and an 8000 family Embassy in Baghdad, pitting religious and political factions against eachother simply to breed instability, … sounds like another day in the West Bank.
Arabs killing Arabs: warms a Neo Cons heart, while the oilmen grab-and-go.
To hell with the NYT. They saw some major defections this week, and put this shit out because they were afraid of being scooped by Lugar, and even wacky Ricky, fer crissakes.
Kathleen @ 201
Schumer, Lieberman, and A*P*C are all on the same team wrt the Middle East.
Schumer sleeps with the Hedge Funds.