Oh, and repetititon.
It’s maybe the oldest polititcal advice around and also doubles as writing advice. Tell them. Tell them again. Tell them you told them.
And as with a lot of common sense prescriptions, social scientists are getting around to confirming it:
The study, carried out by Kimberlee Weaver and colleagues, found we can tell that three different people expressing the same opinion better represents the group than one person expressing the same opinion three times – but not by much.
In fact, if one person in a group repeats the same opinion three times, it has 90% of the effect of three different people in that group expressing the same opinion. When you think about it, that is strange….
…The theme of this research is something that has been known and used by advertisers and influencers for decades. Familiarity doesn’t breed contempt at all, it breeds attraction. Making your voice heard is the only way to let others know what you think. Otherwise they will think you agree with the loudest person.
Similarly, and more worryingly, when an opinion is repeatedly broadcast at us by the same organisation – think of a particular media conglomerate or an advertiser – we’re likely to come to believe it represents the general opinion. That’s despite the fact it is analogous to the same person repeating themselves over and over again.
This is about all you need to know about why 70% of Americans wound up thinking Saddam was behind 9/11. The White House said Saddam and 9/11 together, the media repeated it over and over and over and over again for months and what few rebuttals there were were few and far between. This also explains a lot of why the country believes there was a rightwards shift, especially with the rise of “talk radio” and the end of the Fairness doctrine.
I say believes because on the issues, even in the late nineties, most Americans were pretty liberal – they were pro-choice; they wanted the environment protected; they wanted health care and so on. Yet self-identified conservatives outweighed self-identified liberals. Odd that.
We like to think that we aren’t influenced much by the opinions of others, but at heart we all know we are. Liberals were demonized as wishy washy and weak, the “mommies” of the world, unlike the bold, decisive, pragmatic conservative daddies. (Who’s your daddy? Hmmmm?) If you can represent yourself as strong, decisive and pragmatic – rather than weak and wishy-washy, what’ll it be? And so, despite being liberal on the issues, Americans self-identified as conservatives.
Under the fairness doctrine both sides of a political argument had to be given equal airtime. The repetition factor was thus balanced out and the two ideas could then compete, hopefully, on the merits. Add to that the fact that most liberal positions are, in fact, majority opinions, which means people would, in their everyday lives, hear more liberal than conservative opinions, and in general you would wind up with more accurate impressions of what the majority belief was (and people are reluctant to go against the majority belief. If “everyone” except some “dirty hippies” thinks Iraq was behind 9/11 and has nukes, well, why wouldn’t you? You don’t have time to study it, but the media is repeating it, so why wouldn’t it be true.)
The repetition factor is why it matters that the New York Times runs more guest editorials against abortion than for it, even though the Times’ official position is pro-choice. Its why it matters if the media has a bias and why it matters when partisan talking points are repeated as if they are news and without rebuttal or alternate views being presented.
And its why the blogosphere matters. I’m sure many, perhaps most readers remember what it was like before the blogosphere. How you felt like you were one of a very few people who had the beliefs you had. How it felt like you were screaming into the wind. Forget the war, I remember the 2000 election (before the theft) when Bush was just making up budget numbers. He was spending the money twice. Paul Krugman kept calling him on it, and he kept ignoring it and the media didn’t pick it up and repeat it, so his lies about how much of a surplus there was and what it could be used for were accepted by the public. He was promising “your lunch, and eat it too” and he got away with it.
The guy I started blogging with, Kevin Brennan, was perhaps the savviest political observer I’ve ever had the pleasure of talking to and writing with. He doesn’t blog anymore and the reason he doesn’t isn’t just the standard “time constraints”, it’s because “I’ve said everything I wanted to say”. He’s right, he did. He said it all… once. And even those few people who read him, mostly won’t remember, because he didn’t say it, say it again, then tell everyone he told them so.
And repetition isn’t just about getting an idea of how many people believe what. It isn’t just about group think. It’s about learning. You learn by repeating things. Even essentially conceptual tasks, like solving algebra problems, are learned, once the concepts are explained, by doing problem after problem after problem. In the same respect when you first read about a new idea; a new concept; a new frame or a new way of understanding a problem or thinking about the world, odds are it doesn’t really sink in.
It sinks in, it becomes a part of you and how you think, when it’s worn in like a rut.
Beliefs and opinions then are a lot like the old saw “you are what you eat”. Hang out at FDL long enough, and you’ll see the world one way. Hang out at Little Green Footballs (no, no link) and you’ll wind up thinking a very different way. Listen to Rush Limbaugh every day; or have Fox on all the time, and you’ll wind up believing a lot of what they say. When something new happens you’ll apply their models.
This isn’t inevitable. There are always those few iconoclasts who stand against the tide, who see through the fog of lies and who have the guts to say so. But add in social approval of the people we spend our lives with, and its few enough of us who will be able to cut through and see that just because “everyone” thinks something doesn’t make it so.
Or, as Joe Conason said “it can happen here”. And, more importantly for each of us, “It can happen to us.”
So, at a political level, the Fairness Doctrine needs to come back. At a personal level, while few of us can bear to bathe in the swill that is a blog like Little Green Footballs, we need to seek out dissenting opinions and evaluate them. They may turn out, often enough, to be crap, but we need to remember to judge whether they’re crap after we’ve read them and asked ourselves, “on the merits, does this make sense?”
And for those of us in the opinion making, and shaping, business, which includes many people reading this today, we need to remember to “tell them, tell them again, and tell them we told them.”
We were right. They were wrong. And it isn’t gloating to hammer it in, it’s just good sense.
(Picture from Flickr, the photographer’s archive is well worth your time.)
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!!!
zed?
Tell it friend!
RevDeb @ 3
Deb!
(In the spirit of the post)
Deb! Deb!
oh yes, Deb!
I like algebra. And I like to hang around with common sense.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 5
The most uncommon human attribute of all, common sense is.
In the preaching business the old school advise was:
First you tells them what you’re gonna tell them.
Then you tell them
Then you tell them what you told them.
repetition, repetition, repetition.
Ian Welsh @ 4
;-)
yellowdogD @ 2
Nope. ;~)
Hi Ian
I’m like afraid to say I agree with you.
RevDeb @ 7
That is exactly the 60 minutes formula. Clock ticking with tonight’s stories, the stories, and clock ticking with the reminder of the night’s stories.
Sorry for the OT, New Seven wonders list announced
All these lying memes, that the msm does not contest, even though the facts speak plainly otherwise. Sorta like the one about Scooter Libby being picked upon for “partisan” reasons (even though the entire justice system which prosecuted and judged his case were republican appointees) and the falsehood that Richard Armitage was solely responsible for the “outing” of a CIA operative. Etc. Etc.
I have been very disheartened by the fact that so-called Dem spokespeople on MSM news shows seem completely unable to frame the narrative according to the facts of the case, rather are so easily led into a defensive posture (example: the dif between the Marc Rich pardon and the Scooter Libby commutation–it would be so incredibly easy to put an end to that by pointing out that Libby was Rich’s lawyer!)
RevDeb @ 7
Law school formula for an opening statement, or a closing argument.
RevDeb @ 7
I seem to recall that as the mantra of any writing or presentation class I ever took.
Amen, Amen, and Amen.
The inability of most people to engage in critical thinking is a major problem too.
Loo Hoo. @ 11
And you simply ignore the rethug talking points set up by the host and by the rethug “opponent.” Stay on message, not matter what…why the hell don’t these people get that? Are they lazy or stupid or both?
Loo Hoo. @ 11
Or BBC, or at least it used to. The intro and the recap were longer than a MSM drive-by (sold as feature) item.
Ian it really is true that people like repitition. When I taught Kinder, I’d sometimes give a child a choice of a familiar book or a new book. I’d hold up both books, do a quick intro about the new book, and try to sell it. Almost always, the child would choose the familiar book.
What a day today has been!
I woke up and my clock said 7:07. I remembered that the date was 07/07/07. So I called my cousin in Florida and had him put $700 on the seventh horse in the seventh race at Hialeah. Woo-hoo!!!
Since the theme is repetition, I will repeat what I said in the last thread.
There’s a call to action in Birmingham in a week. I can’t go but we need lots of pro-choice activists to show up. Please read at Kos (also posted at Street Prophets and Talk2Action (and my own site, but that doesn’t get any traffic and Kos does.) If it doesn’t get many recommends it disappears into the ether. (a few comments wouldn’t hurt either)
Thanks for spreading the word.
Repetition can become tedious.
It came in seventh.
Big Mitch @ 14
And tell ‘em Big Mitch sent you. Which is my way of saying that you have got to go over to his blog and reading his oy! gevalt on Libby.
Hi Scarecrow! Just about to put 2 of those good hot dogs on the grill. Thought of you when I got them out of the fridge.
We need to ask TradMed: Why do you continue to feature and showcase those who’ve been wrong about so many things? Why are their opinions still important? Why not let America hear the voices of those who were right? Might they not be right now? Why would you expect those who were wrong about so much to be right now? Why do they still have your platform? Why do you still give them your megaphone?
And I’m not just talking about letting Ann Coulter and Faoud Ajami back onto cable again and again. I mean Chuck Hagel and John Warner and Andrew Sullivan and Fareed Zakaria. Haven’t those who were right all along — Barbara Boxer, Russ Feingold, Maxine Waters — haven’t they earned the right to talk to the American people?
They have. And TradMed continues to deny them a place at their (rapidly diminishing) table.
Thanks, Ian — great post, certainly got me thinking!
Big Mitch @ 21
I love sevenzies, but today is not only notable for being the anniversary of the 7-11 attacks in London, and the anniversary of the unfortunate fact of Shrub’s birth, but also the anniversary of the brithday of the Dalai Lama.
Sevenses are odd.
RevDeb @ 7
Every sales training I’ve ever had was based on exactly these principles. No one likes surprises, whether it’s from the pulpit or from the salesman’s sample case.
And this is why I keep saying IMPEACH in every forum I can.
realworld @ 30
IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEEEEEAAACH!!!
My Grandmother told me on many occasions “that two wrongs, or a thousand wrongs do not make a right, kiddo.” Grandma was right. Just like always.
TeddySanFran @ 27
TradMed = traditional media = MSM?
Also why I keep pointing out our need to anticipate the declaration s that the surge has worked. How to claim the surge is working.
“Repetition, Repetition, Repetition”
In other words (youtube alert for the dial up users)
Frank Luntz says
Oh, off topic … Mary McCurnin, you’ve got mail
spurious @ 9
You’re right. Congrats spurious!
Back to the matter at hand, I think the Fairness Doctrine would be impossible to enforce in this day and age. When there were three networks, and no talk radio, things were simpler. That isn’t to say that getting two opposing talking heads on is a good thing. When one side states an obvious lie, too often no-one calls them on it. A little more awareness on the part of the host (mediator) would help. My $.02.t
Don’t forget the POTUS never said the words “Osama” or “Bin Laden” publically from July of 2002 until November of 2003, when he was asked a question by a reporter directly about Osama.
Big Mitch @ 33
yes. Because they are out of the mainstream. The mainstream is us — the people who want us out of Iraq, the people who want health care for all, the people who want healthy places to live and work and teach American children. We are the mainstream — they are the TradMed.
I don’t recall.
I don’t remember.
That is something I just don’t recall.
I don’t recall remembering that.
I just don’t recall.
FDL, apply directly to the forehead.
FDL, apply directly to the forehead.
FDL, apply directly to the forehead.
Since repetition is the meme..
I thought this EPU’d post deserved repetition..
edex @ 238
impeach
impeach
impeach
yellowdogD @ 36
If I recall correctly, the fairness doctrine mandated equal time for opposing arguments. I agree that an equal time mandate would not be workable. But a license is a public trust. And when a station/network consistently lies, misrepresents, deceives, and falsifies, why is it hard to conclude that they they are being unfair? And if they are unfair, why should they be given access to a public asset, i.e. bandwith?
(Thanks for the plug Woodhall Hallow.)
Loo Hoo. @ 39
repetition, that’s why it was so easy for him to remember his answer “I don’t recall”
bush, cheney, gonzales
see no evil
hear no evil
speak no evil
Dover Bitch @ 40
Take my wife, please !
Take my wife, please !
Take my wife, please ! … Henny Youngman
Fred Thompson’s variant: He “has no recollection” of advising that pro-choice group.
It should be their stupid GOP motto: I don’t recall
Dover Bitch @ 40
707
Republicans enable criminals and liars/
Republicans waste taxpayer money on unnecessary and unjust wars.
Republicans cannot be trusted.
Republicans can’t be trusted.
Republicans have shown that they can’t be trusted.
Republicans don’t care about ordinary people.
musicsleuth @ 45
See no truth
hear no truth
speak no truth.
that’s their mantra.
Repetition is art is pleasing to the eye:
http://www.root2art.co.uk/repe…..index.html
Repeating lies and shutting off truth has been pretty effective. The Iraq war is a total news black hole. Ten US killed yesterday, 26 so far this week..nothing in the MSM.
Loo Hoo. @ 51
Scroll down.
Think Rush Limbaugh.
Loo Hoo. @ 39
The reasons that so many Republicans have to repeat “I don’t remember,” is that they are represented by Ike Ferguson. Learn about him by following the link…
“… and tell ‘em Big Mitch sent ya!”
” … you can’t handle the truth !!!”
This has been an issue where the media and the left have been talking each other. A reporter can say that we printed the truth once in our paper about Saddam and 9/11. Then we argue about the poll numbers of those 41% who are wrong.
The media has to counter out this crap repetitively. Allowing Bush, Cheney, Hannity, Limbaugh to repeat lies unchallenged is the problem.
Your accurate column or editorial one time doesn’t cut it anymore.
Loo Hoo. @ 51
well that was really interesting, and psychedelic, too
Steve @ 52
And if you don’t see the flag-draped coffins, they don’t become part of your awareness.
Let us all repeat, for the next month “Bush & Cheney committed treason and Libby helped to cover it up !”
And when anyone asks for proof, tell them to read the transcript of the Libby trial.
RevDeb @ 7
I had a speech teacher who said he learned that in the military. Only thing he added was “And tell’em again.”
Anybody know what the tire thing is about on the Live Earth set?
RevDeb @ 62
Vatican music on Sundance now… wonderful
RevDeb @ 62
to remind us to keep our tires at the proper inflation to save fuel, I think
Margot @ 61
I should probably add, that’s not the way I preach.
I try to cover the same territory when I teach classes, from the pulpit and sometimes during committee meetings as well. And then there are the newsletter columns. I think I learned somewhere that folks in church need to see/hear things 7 different ways before they “get” it.
spurious @ 59
Repetition of nothing bad, is still repetition. (of lies)
there was a line from the movie “Vendetta” which had one of the Orwellian ruling party’s TV station exec say something to the effect of (not an exact quote, which I can’t remember).. “Why wouldn’t they believe us? The government makes up the news. We just truthfully report it [whatever they make up].”
My rule is to head for the same key point from a different angle. Repetition, in effect, but not actually identical.
Eureka Springs @ 63
Just changed the channel to Sundance and found Cat Stevens (whatever name he goes by now)
RevDeb @ 69
Yusuf Islam[2] (born Steven Demetre Georgiou on 21 July 1948 in London), who was known as Cat Stevens from 1966 to 1978, is an English musician, singer-songwriter, educator, philanthropist and prominent convert to Islam.
Ian Welsh @ 68
Yep. And when I preach I tie threads that usually come from very odd and different places to make the same point. People hear differently and will respond to different stimuli.
good point.
Ian Welsh @ 68
So’s to address multiple learning styles I assume?
RevDeb @ 71
Yea, what Rev said!
raven @ 70
merci. Peace Train now. Beats what’s on Bravo, but then I’m an old fogy.
RevDeb @ 74
NBC is up now.
Slightly tangential: Steve Beren at TPM was astounded that Freddie T is denying every doing lobbying for a pro-choice group, when it seems pretty well established. But it seems to me that it has become a badge of honor among in the Rightie base to just flat out lie. Repeatedly. It’s not “did he tell the truth”, it’s “did he ever falter, or look embarassed.”
Big Mitch @ 55
I was once married to a very abusive man, many moons ago. Whenever I repeated his more outrageous and hurtful statements to him (during calmer times) his defense was ALWAYS, “I don’t remember saying that.” For some time, I bought into that lack of remembrance at face value, until finally one day I woke up and realized that those words were his way of saying that, “not only did I not say that (and my proof is that I don’t remember saying that) but if I did, I am not accountable, since I can’t remember it.
Total facist mindfuck.
9/11 was not an inside job
9/11 was not an inside job
9/11 was not an inside job
and oh, 9/11 was not an inside job
raven @ 75
oo thanks
howdy good people,back from beyond here.every chance there is i check this site to see a glimpse of the real usa.yesterday the grief came through and i want to say.be of good heart!one comment from canada was a missive of rough truth and i could see how it would sting but you are strong enough to handle that.for my own part(and i think this is generally true),distinguishing between the war-mongering hungry gutted bastards and the huge majority of true americans(holding truth self evident)is not difficult.this site and others like it make that even easier.Seems to me the job,aside from finding and voting in,competent,honest-as-possible candidates,is to vote OUT the wmhgb’s.a while ago someone was compiling a list of hgb admin scandals and yrs truly suggested that everyone with a printer run off 1/2 a dozen and stick them up at eye level in public places.everywhere!you have people reading from all over.it doesn’t matter if some get pulled down if they just reappear somewhere else.repetition.repetition.repetition.it seems again that what those who crave power and more than their share don’t (or won’t) understand is,ordinary people couldn’t care less about them and have enough to go on with in our real life with it’s joys and sorrows.their existence and success depends on trust.this regime has shown itself to have betrayed that trust and are a disgrace to the positions they have been trusted with.go get em.GIVE NOTHING.
ps.don’t let the bastards grind you down.
pps.ridicule is potent.
ppps.watch your back.
pppps.ever noticed how similar the evilangelists are to the islamofascists?
ppppps cripes! this is getting out of hand.never mind
Lenny DiCaprio on NBC.
blather, rinse, reap it.
raven @ 81
Gore
punaise @ 82
Haha! that is a full on keeper!
It’s just a shot away.
Petrocelli @ 60
I agree that Treason should be subversion of the Constitution. The US Constitution, however, is very specific that treason “shall consist only in levying war…or giving aid and comfort..
musicsleuth @ 45
Please forgive my edits/corrections
Gonzales=Evil
Bush=Eviler
Cheney=Evilest
Woodhall Hollow @ 84
we’re soaking in it.
Steve @ 86
Which is why they never charged Jane Fonda. It wasn’t a war.
raven @ 72
Learning styles are usually taken as having to do with how the material is presented (visually, for example, which is why I try to use charts when writing about things that are chartable).
People know “things”, as it were, and when you’re trying to teach someone something new, what you’re often trying to do is to conect the new thing you’re showing them to something old they know. Metaphor and analogy is the most obvious way of doing this, but in general it’s just about finding something people are familiar with to launch into something they’re unfamiliar with or to get them to flip a switch and suddenly see the world in a slightly different matter.
So you try and hit it from a different angle hoping that that angle will tweak on something already in their that they can hang it off of.
(Which leads to a digression on learning. When you’re first learning about a new topic, find the shortest book on the subject. It will give you a simple overview and a model, if it’s well done. Once you have that model, the 1,000 page magnum opus with all its little details can be hung off the frame, and even if you wind up deciding the model the little book gave you is wrong, by giving you something to work with, it made it possible for you to appreciate the little details in context.
Start small with broad sweep. Then go big with small details. )
raven @ 72
One theory has it that most people are visual learners. To them you use metaphores like “I see you want more information.” The next largest group is auditory, and to them you say, “I hear you asking for more data, etc.” and the third and smallest group is tactile: “I feel you are getting the idea, now.”
When speaking to one person, it is important to discover which he or she is. Some say you can tell by looking at the direction of their gaze when they look away from you. It is a difficult skill to cultivate. But once you have it, it is extremely powerful.
When speaking to groups of people, you have to mix it up, being mindful that the three groups are not of equal size.
Or so I have heard. If you see what I mean. I feel like you do.
Ian Welsh @ 90
Hmm, we called it functional context literacy in this little corner I used to work in.
Generally speaking, I dislike repetition. Unless of course it serves ‘the good’.
Steve @ 86
Really ?
So many people have repeated over and over again that outing Plame is treason … I began to believe it ... *g*
Great post, Ian !
dakine01 @ 87
Sorry dakine, I hope you know that I have the utmost respect for you, but I have to admit that I don’t get the difference. I am not exactly sure where the line is, but I am sure that all of these people are way on the other side of it–the line which separates those who are clueless parties to evil and those who are enthusiastic parties to it. Just read about Gonzales’ pardon reports to Bush when he was Governator of Texas.
GordonM @ 76
And, to take this one step further, when he’s caught red-handed, as Bush was with the NSA warrantless wiretapping, say: “Yeah, I did it. So what’re you gonna do about it?”
This (probably ongoing) self-admitted felony continues to amaze me.
What Ian said @90. Sicko did that well by taking a complex issue, health care, and illustrating the problems of the system with a number of different concrete stories. Telling stories is the most direct way to get people to understand. If you find stories that people can tie into because they personally identify with something in it. that’s a home run.
Live Earth on NBC, so far the sound is WAY better than what I heard on Sundance and Bravo.
Big Mitch @ 55
I think I told ‘em, but I don’t recall for sure. I’m trying to remember…
RevDeb @ 97
Relevance, we used to call it.
Raven@92
Just googling that phrase now. Thank you, looks very interesting.
It is my belief that most people understand when they are being told the same story over and over, but perhaps in a different way each time.
musicsleuth @ 45
That just means they haven’t looked in a mirror or listened to themselves talk.
Big Mitch @ 91
NLPer. Stay away from my electric sockets!
Ian Welsh @ 101
Tom Stitch, San Diego State I think. He worked with low-literate enlistee’s in the 60’s.
FCE
What would it be like if the so-called “News” stations ran disclaimers (when they haven’t done the leg-work required to know truth from fiction, that is) stating, “This broadcast does not necesarily represent the truth as we have not had the time nor inclination to investigate.” Better yet, what about a class-action lawsuit against the “News” stations that repeatedly touting the lies for so long and which have clearly led to massive damages?
RevDeb @ 69
Moonshadow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGNxKnLmOH4
Moonshadow
Moonshadow
Miss P. @ 106
I think a legal definition of “news program” with both penalties for failing to meet the definition and perhaps some tax carrots for meeting it would be a big help.
Ian, Did you see any data on how much repetition is required to break the original repetative cycle?
My guess would be less than the original for some and impossible for others..)
Sorry if this is a repeat question. If so I missed it the first time.
Petrocelli @ 94
For what it is worth, considering the number of times Joe McCarthy and the current band of wing-nuts cry treason, only one person has been charged in the past 55 years. Oct, 2006..Adam Gadahn.
From the NYT’s: Libby, Libby, Libby!!!
oklahoma kiddo,same here.repeating things in conversation gets very tired very fast.private communication is best for me when it flows.however,public communication is a whole different kettle of fish.repetition.repetition. repetition.the billion $ advertising industry relies apon it.and for those idiots who think entertainment shows featuring torture have no effect,how come advertising works?
Blub @ 103
Bush = “I see nothink”
Cheney = “You didn’t hear that from me”
Gonzales = “I don’t recall…”
Better yet, what about a class-action lawsuit against the “News” stations that repeatedly touting the lies for so long and which have clearly led to massive damages?
Wasn’t there such a suit somewhere (Florida?) that Fox News won on the basis that the “News” they reported did not necessarily have to be true?
Woodhall Hollow @ 95
Understood. It was just an attempt to chart some gradations on a theme. They are all totally evil without a doubt.
Big Mitch @ 24
707! Too funny, and enjoy your comments, also.
There are 2 distinct types of learning. One is training new pathways in the brain, which takes repetition and some kind of desire to succeed.
The other kind is when something horrid happens to you and you “Why did that happen? Huh? All I did was eat a grape.” And then you never, ever eat a grape again, so that horrid thing will never happen again.
But actually, they’re the same. Your brain just made a new connection. The emotional impetus of the 2nd way just gets around the need for repetition, and also makes it slightly easier to learn something that is absolutely wrong (though you can do that either way – practice makes perfect!).
Ian Welsh @ 90
Learning styles are usually taken as having to do with how the material is presented (visually, for example, which is why I try to use charts when writing about things that are chartable).When presenting material, the more senses you can appeal to the better. That is why it is best to have a chart or a power-point (visual) about the words (auditory) you are using.
Then there is the division between thinking, feeling and intuiting people. Each responds differently to the same argument. (I am hoping someone here can correct me when I go wrong, but this is not my area of expertise.) I believe that there are measurable differences between conservative vs. liberal people on the thinking-feeling-intuitin trichotomy. Conservatives — those who tend to have authoritarian personalities — tend to be feelers. They respond to strong leaders who create a feeling of security. Liberals tend to be thinkers and a good argument, based on evidence and logic, is more persuasive to them.
Of course, all generalizations, including this one, overlook many exceptions.
Our inability to relate to the hero-worship of a guy like Giuliani (aside: for what???) prevents us from taking him seriously. Therefore, I caution people against counting him out.
There’s my 2 cents.
jayt @ 114
but don’t they at least have to try?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 93
Not in your music, OKK. You love repetition there.
Clusterfuck is an asshole
Clusterfuck is an asshole
Clusterfuck is a smelly, stinky, slimy, asshole.
Raven@92
Just googling that phrase now. Thank you, looks very interesting.Eureka Springs @ 109
I didn’t, no. Good question.
Miss P. @ 106
A Florida (?) Fox Noise affiliate defended itself in court with the pitiful claim that “we said it was news, we didn’t say it was TRUE” and got away with it. Someone linked it up here once….
Funny thing: as we speak Joe Wilson is saying that the Republicans are usually successful in diverting the press’ and the public’s attention by repeating over and over and over again that Joe Wilson is a liar.
On Air America, Richard Green’s show “Clout.”
PRESIDENT GW CLUSTERFUCK is a world class asshole.
Elliott @ 119
Not really. Their use of the air waves depends on their license being periodically renewed. From what I hear, finding out when renewals are up and or finding out where the hearings are being held that determine renewal are becoming harder and harder. It used to be that there had to be a certain amount of public notice. Just try and find out that info now.
When I call my congressperson I make a clear simple statement. I insist they take my info and send me a response by †heir boss. I have them repeat my message back to me. It is then recorded and doesn’t go into the general “some calls file”.
Now they even know my voice. The call is very friendly and two of the three are the opposition. We exchange civilities. They always repeat my message back to me and I receive a response. Yes, they are standard letters but usually on subject. My mailbox is full of Ensign, Reid and Heller letters.
On occasion I had to get really tough and be persistent like after Hurricane Katrina when we managed to get my Mom out of the area (she evacuated early but they were left stranded). It was the classic case of the squeaky wheel getting the oil. And I squeaked so loud their nerves were on edge and their ears hurt. Yes, I inflicted PAIN over and over and over again.
Miss P. @ 106
Interesting thought, but I suppose it would have to be proven that the news entity knew that what they were reporting was false.
PRESIDENT GW CLUSTERFUCK is an universal asshole.
Big Mitch @ 118
Intuition brings feeling and reason together. Many people make the mistake of “thinking” that feelings are intuitive, but that is not so. True intuitives are rare and unrecognized in this culture, as they are not only able to discriminate between this and that on a rational level, but also don’t discount feelings and emotions.
suspend the P and VP
suspend the P and VP
suspend the P and VP
then impeach
99.44% of all assholes surveyed said that GW Clusterfuck was one of them.
We only knew that our local station (former NBC affiliate) KRON-4 had a license renewal coming up this year when they announced they would not broadcast the Pride Parade until 7pm, and then only censored “highlights.”
Sad, really — but clearly the stations are scared of those who know how to access the renewal process.
QuakerGirl @ 127
I thought you were non- violent … *g*
OT but the Ugly American strikes again from AP via MSNBC. We do such a good job at getting along with the rest of the world.
Bush is a crook. Cheney is a criminal. Impeach them both. Bush is a crook. Cheney is a criminal. Impeach them both. Bush is a crook. Cheney is a criminal. Impeach them both. Bush is a crook. Cheney is a criminal. Impeach them both.
Well, it just bears repeating. Over and over again. It needs to be repeated. For the salvation of our democracy and the “rule of law.”
Big Mitch @ 118
Just after I wrote that I read on HuffPo
The article says he was “jeered.”
rwcole @ 121
Funny story..My brother-in-law died at home, after long, down hill course. My sister got him out of the hospital and into his own bed a few days before he died. He was usually in a near coma; my sister was with him and Bush came on CNN..he woke up..said “Bush is an Ass-hole” and died. She has a huge smile on her face when she tells the story..
RevDeb @ 126
you know, now that you mention it, use to be the local stations had to publicly solicit public input. Haven’t heard any such requests lately.
Steve @ 138
Too bad she couldn’t get it on tape. I understand that even the courts recognize that in death there is truth telling.
Big Mitch @ 124
And so fucking what if his wife recommended him…as I am very certain that this sort of “cover” is quite commonplace in the CIA. As it is well known that very often, CIA contacts/agents are deeply covered by the State Department. In fact one it is worthy of thinking about the fact that CIA agents do not often have the same “marriage options” that you and I have. It was lucky for Valerie Plame that she met Joe when she did. As a career state dept officer, he would’ve been a safe marriage prospect.
Woodhall Hollow @ 130
Most of our thinking appears to be done on an emotional level. You build up associations (good old fashioned skinnerian style) with propositions and you snap through them when thinking on the basis of how a proposition makes you feel.
Sounds bad, and it can be, but it can also be good. It allows you to think very fast, rather than having to diagram everything out. When people with no emotional ability (due to brain damage) are asked to make a decisions which is very ambiguous they run into real problems (one guy spent hours listing the pros and cons of having his next medical appointment on Tuesday or Thursday.) On the other hand, they react very well in clear cut situations where emotions would get in the way.
Antonio Damasion deals with this at length in “Descartes Error” and it’s a book I can’t reccomend enough.
Big Mitch @ 137
The article says he was “jeered.”
he also remains pro gun control. The NRA doesn’t like that very much. Imagine a repig. candidate winning without the NRA. Can you?
Petrocelli @ 134
I am. Except when I’m not:))
This is a great thread. Thanks, Ian, and all of you.
rwcole @ 125
What did you say?
TeddySanFran @ 145
Thanks Teddy. :)
Steve @ 138
Not many funny stories begin that way. I am glad you and your wife have found peace.
I’ll stick with “A priest, a rabbi, and a minister walk into a bar …”
OT-Gore has been a busy beaver today! He kicked of DC’s Live Earth, then, introduced Bon Jovi in Giants Stadium! Excellent concerts!!! Aloha, Y’all!!! *g*
Big Mitch @ 148
tell me more . . . .
Ian – Big Mitch is using a scheme that comes out of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) that classifies by senses. You’re using something that goes back forever (Gurdjieff wrote extensively about the 3 brains, and he got it from Sufi tradition).
The NLP stuff is very effective at what kind of imagery will work with a person, while the system you use is more how to approach a person. NLP is very effective in the small, which is why it has been glommed onto by despicable marketing types.
CTuttle @ 149
Hey CT !!!
I saw Duran Duran … too busy to watch any more of it, Simon rocked !!!
Intuition brings feeling and reason together. Many people make the mistake of “thinking” that feelings are intuitive, but that is not so. True intuitives are rare and unrecognized in this culture, as they are not only able to discriminate between this and that on a rational level, but also don’t discount feelings and emotions.
Very well said.
dakine01 @ 135
This kind of arrogance makes me so freaking mad. I have a foreign exchange daughter in Brazil. Grrrr
OT..but this is really good..On the Nixon WH tapes, Nixon said Fred Thompson is “dumb as Hell”…there is more.
http://rawstory.com/showarticl….._watergate
Thompson is toast!!
GordonM @ 151
interesting. Don’t go searching, but you have any reccomendations on what to read on both? (Or links?)
I’ve been doing so much virtual eating lately that I forgot to eat.
Apparently George W. Bush needs to borrow some “permission slips” from John Kerry in order to go after Al Qa*da in Pakistan.
What next? One on one negotiations with the North Koreans?
-GSD
QuakerGirl @ 144
One of the greatest things I ever heard had to do with the Quakers who were spied on by the government. This came out in the basement hearings that John Conyers had on the FISA scandal (Repeat: impeachable, on-going criminal conspiracy.) So one congressman or witness made a big point of saying that the government was stepping so far over bounds, etc. etc. The Quaker who was there, was a man who used a wheel chair. And the congressman was saying how obviously not dangerous, the Quakers were.
The fellow in the wheel chair finally spoke and said, “I agree with everything you said, except the idea that we are dangerous. Concerned and knowledgable people are always dangerous to tyrants.”
Or words to that effect.
Big Mitch @ 148
Ends with the rabbi saying “and the dog dies”, right?
Big Mitch @ 137
The article says he was “jeered.”
Giuliani: “I don’t think a fair tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates.”
Yeah, *sswipe … the fair tax means that the rich will … *gasp* … pay more taxes than the poor … can’t have that, can you ?
Oh, and repetititon.
It’s maybe the oldest polititcal advice around and also doubles as writing advice
triples.
Petrocelli @ 152
I loved the whole Aussie concert, Wembley was awesome, and a few choice groups scattered among SA, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Hamburg!!!
Fred Thompson 2008-He’s dumb as hell, but he’s friendly.
-GSD
OT..me @ 155..I wonder which Gooper is doing this hatchet job on Freddie?
punaise @ 162
the trouble with triples…
great piece ian
one request, possibly make a good thread all by itself, branched off form this quote;
that’s a pretty damning statistic right there
are there other instances where the new york times represents more right winged point of view then center or left?
by the way, being pro choice is not “left wing” or “liberal”, since the majority of Americans believe in this choice that position is center, not left, not liberal
at any rate, I love to argue that the new york times is not a liberal paper and statistic like the one you posted are impossible to argue against
IF there are other examples
Ian Welsh @ 156
Basic books on NLP from many years ago:
Practical Magic by Steve Lankton
Using your Brain for a Change by Richard Bandler
The Structure of Magic by Richard Bandler and John Grinder
Haven’t packed half the books yet so these were on my shelf. Took a course in it back in 1989. Damned if I can tell you what I learned at this point but I do remember a link between using physical cues to break phobias, to reprogram the brain so to speak.
Steve @ 155
Did Nixon say Fred is Dumb as hell?
Dumb as hell
Dumb as hell
GSD(inNC) @ 164
Is there another “GSD” commenting at the Lake ?
Why did you add the (inNC) to your name?
Petrocelli @ 161
Yeah, *sswipe … the fair tax means that the rich will … *gasp* … pay more taxes than the poor … can’t have that, can you ?
I think it has to do equally with the fact that non-discretionary spending, (which is all the poor have) is taxed at the same rate as the money you earned to spend on the remodel on your f*cking yacht.
GordonM @ 160
I thought it ended with the rabi saying “so I cut off his tail pipe”
Elliott @ 166
Good grief ! The 2 of you together in the same comment. :-)
OffT: Unanimous Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals panel rules 3-0 that the government doesn’t need a search warrant to determine what websites you visit.
Oh, well, I wasn’t using my civil liberties anyway….
Elliott @ 166
LOL !!!
Dammit Jim … they’re everywhere !!!
Ian Welsh @ 156
Anything by Bandler and Grinder (the founders of NLP). Nothing by anyone else (I tried for years – it all sucked, though maybe I missed something).
Can’t think of anything focussed on the 3 brain stuff – it’s a thread running through any number of Sufi influenced schools. Essentially it’s the head, heart and spine. But be aware that “feelings” belong to the spine (kinesthetic), and “emotions” are a completely different thing. If I think of something, I’ll let you know at the agonist.
Speaking of Ian’s repetition, I was thoroughly indoctrinated by Uncle Sam through repetition! I was trained to teach my troops and brief them by the three step process and, reinforce it with back briefs! *g*
Steve @ 138
Even the comotose know! Sorry about your brother-in-law, Steve.
Woodhall Hollow @ 130
i don’t know what a true intuitive is… but my regular, every day experience of intuition is that i sense it as a feeling – but that it is an idea or connection based on a foundation of knowledge or experience that is not immediately consciously accessible. now you’ve got me wondering how other people experience intuition.
http://test.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_6316023
Outing Valerie Plame aided our enemies
Larry Johnson recomends this
Petro,
I’m down in North Carolina for a week, so I’m using a different computer.
-GSD
Big Mitch @ 171
I think it has to do equally with the fact that non-discretionary spending, (which is all the poor have) is taxed at the same rate as the money you earned to spend on the remodel on your f*cking yacht.
Certain things are exempt … food, basic sustenance … no ?
GSD(inNC) @ 181
Any plans on coming to Toronto ?
Twain @ 173
it’s always a privilege to reply to punaise
Petrocelli, Fair Tax is Neal Boortz’s book on how the rich can benefit from regressive tax systems..
Thanks Deb and Gordon for the references.
-GSD
Is there another “GSD” commenting at the Lake ?
Why did you add the (inNC) to your name?
Perhaps he’s vacationing and letting us know? GSD seems very steady and pithy. Just letting us know, I think.
CTuttle @ 163
Did Men At Work perform in OZ ?
I hope they replay the concerts, or put them on DVD.
Loo Hoo. @ 178
It was past time for him..He and my sister had a good 53 years together.
Back to Nixon and Freddie;
“Oh s—, that kid,” Nixon said when told by his chief of staff, H.R. Haldeman, of Thompson’s appointment on Feb. 22, 1973.
“Well, we’re stuck with him,” Haldeman said.
In a meeting later that day in the Old Executive Office Building, Baker assured Nixon that Thompson was up to the task. “He’s tough. He’s six feet five inches, a big mean fella,” the senator told Nixon.
Publicly, Baker and Thompson presented themselves as dedicated to uncovering the truth. But Baker had secret meetings and conversations with Nixon and his top aides, while Thompson worked cooperatively with the White House and accepted coaching from Nixon’s lawyer, J. Fred Buzhardt, the tapes and transcripts show.
“We’ve got a pretty good rapport with Fred Thompson,” Buzhardt told Nixon in an Oval Office meeting on June 6, 1973. The meeting included a discussion of former White House counsel John Dean’s upcoming testimony before the committee.
Dean, the committee’s star witness, had agreed to tell what he knew about the break-in and cover-up if he was granted immunity against anything incriminating he might say.
Nixon expressed concern that Thompson was not “very smart.”
“Not extremely so,” Buzhardt agreed.
“But he’s friendly,” Nixon said
It will be interesting to see what Howie Klein does with it.
Joe Wilson on Air America just said good-bye on Air America now. He will be testifying in Congress this week. His sign off:
“I never took crap from Saddam Hussein, and I sure as hell am not going to take any from this bunch of clowns in the White House.”
Fair enough.
Here’s my try:
Neo-Conservatives have wrecked the finances and moral standing of the USA on behalf of the military industrial complex and based on the wishes of a small, dependent client state.
So please don’t vote for or support a neo-conservative runnning for President.
ok so far?
Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and others running in the primary for the Democratic nomination, voice neo-con talking points just like Dick Cheney, such as “all options are on the table, including another illegal, immoral act of military agression” against Iran.
therefore, they might be neo-conservatives, and should not be supported for the Presidency of the USA, even if they are anointed with the magical (D) nomination.
see, sometimes bad people get the magical (D) nomination, and therefore assume that good people will automatically support them.
If this is no longer the case, somewhere over the rainbow, then the (D) party might consider nominating and running some good people, for example in strongly (D) states that deserve them like Illinois.
Big Mitch @ 171
Let’s not diss remodelling yachts for rich *ssw*p*s. It’s how a lot of my friends make their (precarious) livings.
Elliott @ 184
executive privilege!
Big Mitch @ 190
Give that man a standing ovation !!!!!!!!
JPL @ 185
Speaking of which, Petro, you have a PST and a GST with every purchase, is there a personal income tax, as well?
JPL @ 185
Thanks for that … I thought it was like V.A.T., where those who spend more on non- essential items pay a larger % of the tax … the rich pay more tax and the poor pay less or no tax …
Ian Welsh @ 186
they go back to the mid ’70’s through the mid ’80’s.
GordonM @ 176
thank you…. you’ve sparked my curiousity
punaise @ 193
Perhaps I should have said
“it’s always a privilege to reply to the unitary puniase”
Big Mitch @ 159
I remember those hearings. Thanks for mentioning them. Nonviolence is active force. It is a conscious decision of conviction. Nonviolence and pacifism are not to be confused with passive.
Those elderly Quaker ladies man a mean picket line. Watch out for them. They have no qualms about getting arrested and smile sweetly at the person arresting them.
Fair tax seems to usually mean flat tax or something close. And flat taxes always wind up actually being regressive since it’s usually on income, while everything else (sales tax, property tax, fees, fines etc…) is regressive.
Can’t put my fingers on the source, but I remember a few years ago reading that the US was effectively flat tax already when you added everything together.
Petrocelli @ 188
Unfortunately, No!, but Crowded House reuned and the Aussie cadre were all phenomenal!!!
selise @ 179
For me, I can think of instances where it’s feeling such as when I know someone passed away even though I haven’t spoken to them for years. But an intuitional chess move for me would not be feeling related at least I don’t think it would be.
Ian Welsh @ 201
What do you think of Gore’s pollution tax idea ?
He’s such a smart man that I actually think it’ll work.
Big Mitch @ 190
Ah Hah!!
Ian Welsh @ 201
In the south, disclosure I live in GA, people have Fair TAX bumper stickers based on a book by a rep. Linder and talk show host Boortz trying to do away with the income tax and accessing a sales tax only. It would be the end of the middle class here.
GordonM @ 192
Craftsmen are a dwilding lot; we lose them at our peril. (grrrr…)
Petrocelli @ 204
A key word in economics is “externalities.” It means costs that are not borne by the manufacturer, retailer, or consumer. Like air-pollution. Taxing manufacturers to compensate for it makes good sense. After all, why should I pay (with my clean air) for Joe’s manufacture and sale of an auto to Jim.
But to impose the tax all at once would be unfair, because established factories couldn’t compete with newer, less polluting, ones. And they can’t afford to rebuild all at once. So being able to trade credits is a wonderful idea.
That’s my 2 cents, overpriced as it is.
Repeat after me:
IMPEACH!
IMPEACH!
IMPEACH!
New thread upstairs
Big Mitch @ 208
LOL … I think a proper Fair Tax is great because it shifts the burden away from the low and middle income earners and onto the high income earners … but the d*vil is in the details …
selise @ 179
I don’t know what a true intuitive is either but I’ve always considered myself intuitive more than anything else I am. It provides no income by the way, nor respect for the most part. For me, it’s a sense rather than a feeling. Cum granos salos.
An observation concerning the Libby case:
Bush’s attorney had four choices from which to choose.
1) Do nothing, and let Libby’s sentence stand.
2) Commute Libby’s jail time. (Which they did, while leaving the charges intact. Hmmm, by leaving the charges still intact, they left open the door to a future pardon).
3) A narrow pardon. If they’d chosen this route, would they have limited the scope of the Libby pardon to only the charges for which he was tried, convicted and sentenced…lying and obstructing justice?
4) A full, blanket pardon, covering not only the crimes for which Libby was convicted, but also covering any “underlying crimes” that led Libby to do what he did?
Aaaah, no I see why commutation was chosen.
The Bush attorneys didn’t want to see the inside of a federal jail cell, but they also chose not to pardon him…at this time.
Just like the U.S. Attorney firings in the “off-season” in December 2006, a pardon of Libby right now, whether limited or broad in scope, would have provoked a political firestorm, especially compared to the less-radical choice and less-scandalous reaction expected in commuting Libby’s sentence (or at least Bush’s attorneys hope).
After the November 2008 elections, though, Bush’s attorneys will issue Libby a pardon, but this pardon will not be just for the crimes for which Libby was tried, convicted and sentenced.
Everyone in the Bush administration, including former Cheney aide Libby, still face legal jeopardy for the “underlying crime” of criminally outing a covert CIA agent, destroying a covert CIA overseas network and betraying our national security in the process.
Thus, when Libby is issued his pardon, the pardon will be a full pardon that will retroactively cover Libby’s butt (and consequently those people for which he lied and obstructed justice). This blanket pardon for Libby, therefore, will encompass and neutralize any legal jeopardy Libby might have still faced in the future due to his involvement in conspiring to disclose the classified identity of a covert CIA operative in 2003.
I foresee the Bush attorneys, after the November 2008 elections, pulling a similar stunt to the one pulled by the GOP Kentucky governor several years ago. In that case, this GOP governor pardoned members of his staff to obstruct an investigation into alleged criminal acts by his administration.
Thus, commutation now, but a blanket pardon for Libby later, a pardon that will be an attempt to try to insulate the criminals in the Bush administration from ever being tried and convicted for the “underlying crime” of outing a covert CIA agent.
Speaking of the Fairness Doctrine, there was some kind of vote last week, I think it was congress, and they voted down re-establishing the Doctrine overwhelmingly. Does anyone know if there were bad amendments or something. I agree that it would be hard to do now, but surely anything is better than this crap going on now.
That is a great story! Total consciousness at the end. I loved it. My mothers last conscious moment was to vote absentee for Kerrey. Unfortunately she died before it could be mailed.
Steve @
138
Alice B @ 215
All depends on how you look at it … in yoga, we believe your last thoughts guide your rebirth …
Petrocelli @ 211
Huh? The rich spend a much smaller proportion of their income than the poor or middle class. If you give every man, woman and child about $20K of tax free spending you can make it non-punitive. Then you have a (federal) sales tax around 15 or 20%.
I’m not familiar with the proposal under discussion, but it’s very hard to make a sales tax progressive.
GordonM @ 217
I’m also going to read up on it.
In Canada, we have a V.A.T. and while the rich spend a smaller proportion of their income, they do spend more $$$, and every dollar spent is taxed … thus the rich pay more of this tax, which is why Giuliani (and probably every Repug) would be against it.
I’m on Facebook, please let me know what you find out about this Fair Tax proposal.
Big Mitch @ 21
Hialeah’s still running? I thought Calder and Gulfstream were the only active tracks in SoFL.
spurious @ 17
Where are people supposed to learn critical thinking any more? in high schools, aren’t they too busy teaching people basic math and English skills so they can pass their basic skills tests?
I know that Republicans don’t want to spend money on teaching critical thinking skills, but we have to figure out ways to promote teaching critical thinking at the high school level, and I would include civics education in that mix.
Grass roots politics should pay more attention to school boards.
Bob in HI
Petrocelli @ 204
I favor it or a version thereof. Pollution costs other people money and bad health, and those who do it, should pay.
I heard it like this:
1) Tell them what you’re going to tell them.
2) Tell them.
3) Tell them what you told them.
Faux News has plenty of variations of the above routine.
QuakerGirl @ 200
That’s right! One of my favorite people when I was a teen was a Quaker lady. To protest the Vietnam War she didn’t pay her taxes. Filed, didn’t pay. Let the government take it from her, but she wasn’t making it easy for them.
She would talk about those “nice young FBI agents” who would come by to see her and how they liked the cookies she made.
Ian, this was an intriguing post,
although sometimes thinking about thinking gets my brain inside-out.
Thank you so much for the clarity.