I saw Michael Moore’s SiCKO last weekend, and I strongly recommend it to all. It’s Moore at his best — or worst, if you’re on the receiving end — because it makes its main points powerfully and convincingly. It’s hilarious, infuriating, saddening and enlightening all at once. But more than anything else, it is a devastating indictment of how health care is provided in America and a wakeup call about the upside-down way most Americans have been encouraged to think about the problem. This movie turns the current discussion of “universal coverage” on its head. It’s about time.
As today’s New York Times article notes, most of the Democratic candidates are gravitating towards some plan for universal health insurance. You’d get insurance through your job, or on your own, or perhaps through a pool of insurance providers in which insurance premiums are subsidized. The candidates may disagree on details about how this is done, exceptions or incentives for small businesses, whether it’s mandatory or not, or how long it takes to phase in. Lots of details.
The problem is that these details are complicated for voters, and what’s worse, they’re dealing with the wrong questions from the voters’ perspectives. Why should voters have to sort through these complicated details about insurance coverage? They want health care when they need it, not insurance that may or may not cover them, depending on pre-existing conditions and arbitrary coverage decisions over which they have no control, decisions that can leave them financially devastated.
The Republican candidates are even worse; they’re struggling to define their proposals without having to confront the problems of “universal coverage.” But mostly they’re adamant about keeping the government out of the health care system, even though the most successful and popular system in America — Medicare — is essentially government managed. Remember, these are the bozos who want to replace Social Security with — remember — private insurance. The American people loved that one.
Moore’s SiCKO very cleverly starts from this peculiarly Republican obsession against government-provided health care. It then examines how the private insurance system actually works in America — and it’s one infuriating and heartbreaking horror story after another; real stories, real people, consistently denied care by a system of perverse incentives that rewards insurance companies for denying claims. We listen as administrators and even doctors working for the insurance companies — not for patients — explain how the entire system has become morally corrupted by a system in which insurance companies tell practicing doctors what treatments make sense, based on what makes the insurance company healthy. Bring your anti-angry pills for this part. But then Moore hooks up with friends/relatives in Canada, and all of sudden, the conversation completely changes.
You see, the Canadians didn’t start by asking how we can get everyone insured, or how we could force employers to provide insurance. Instead, they started by asking, “How can we assure quality health care for everyone?” When you start with the right question, you get a very different answer. Moore then drives this distinction home with amusing scenes of him wandering around trying to figure out how his patient friends — who quickly get treated without question by the Canadian system — will be charged, how they will pay, what insurance forms they have to fill out, how they qualify, how they defend against insurance claim denials, and so on. The answer is: They don’t; none of that nonsense exists.
When you start with the right question, “how can we provide health care for everyone without hassle,” the system you get provides you health care for everyone without hassle. The patient needs care; the patient gets care. Questions about how it’s paid for are not something the patient ever deals with, other than participating/voting in the political process to determine how taxes are raised and allocated for all government services. Because that’s what health care is: an essential public service to which every person (not just citizens) is entitled, just like police and fire protection, and health and safety inspectors, and schools and dozens of other essential public services.
The rest of the movie has Moore checking out the systems in the UK, France, and eventually Cuba (including Guantanamo!). Everywhere he goes, their governments asked the right question first, and they got universal, no hassle health care — all the time, for everyone, no questions asked — plus free house calls if needed, and extended maternity leave and support, and . . . If you’ve traveled abroad and needed care, you know.
Along with this powerful message, Moore provides the humor by continually asking questions in each country that only make sense in America’s perverse and inhumane system, questions that are just nonsensical everywhere else. Everyone looks at him in bewilderment, because America’s health care debate is not about health care. It’s about nonsense. No one else is confused by the wrong questions.
It’s time we insisted our Democratic candidates stopped talking nonsense and started answering the right questions. All the candidates should throw out their current proposals and sit down together and come up with a Democratic plan, based on universal care. Start with the right question: Don’t tell us how we’re going to get insurance. Tell us how we’re going to get care, with no hassle, no forms, no worries, no denials, no discrimination. Health care for everyone, when they need it, where they need it. That’s what Democrats should offer to the American people. We can figure out how to pay for it, and how to make the transition, just as our friends and neighbors did, in committee hearings later. But first things first.
America is ready for universal health care, and if they’re shown a good model, they’ll pay for it. If the Democrats answer those questions intelligently, and just look at what our neighbors and allies do, we can have a Democratic plan that will bury the Republican party in 2008. And if our Party needs help fending off the anti-government crazies and their allies in the other party who will do everything they can to keep something that enriches them but doesn’t work, costs too much, and benefits only a few, don’t worry. We’d like that fight.
Go see SiCKO, and then ask your Party leaders to start answering the right questions.



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zed?
‘Morning, Scarecrow.
Michael Moore emailed a letter to folks this morning about an internal memo by a Blue Cross provider. I’ll see if I can find my copy.
They are very nervous in the industry.
edit: Found it. The PDF of the internal memo, complete with talking points here.
I’ll have to post Michael’s comments if I can’t find them on a site.
Hi Scarecrow
If the Democratic Congress could get single payer health care, we’d win hands down.
Thank you!!!!
Yes, the question is how to provide health care, not how to provide insurance.
Insurance does not deliver care. Insurance delivers “benefits” (depending) and dividends (for sure!).
Health care is delivered by providers. And as a provider, I can assure you that insurance is a nightmare – just as it is for patients!
Our difficulty in this country, among other things, is that the populace has been brainwashed. People believe (wrongly) that this is the “best country in the world.” They believe (wrongly) that health care “choices” involve “insurance choices” – rather than diagnostic or treatment choices.
Until people take off the blinders – placed there by those who want to pull the wool over the eyes of the citizenry – I fear we will never have quality health care, let alone civil rights and peace and good government.
Thank God for blogs!
Good morning Scarecrow!
Most candidates are leaning towards a “Leave No Health Insurance Company Behind” model. Why give up all those riches in campaign contributions. The insurers are the problem where profits are more important than care.
Just think Medicare Prescription Drug Plan, and that’s were we are headed with those plans.
JF @ 1
Ahem. The appropriate first comment on my threads is “Caw, caw.” If you don’t like the post, you can use fewer letters. This is your final warning. ;)
TheraP @ 4
Thank you — I’d like to hear more from health and insurance providers — how the system works, or doesn’t.
Good morning, Scarecrow! Excellent post (as usual). Can’t wait to see SICKO-what a great title.
I’ve always thought Democracy is about asking questions, and constantly seeking something better. As you rightly point out, the correct questions need to be asked, as well.
Rayne, its on Michael Moores site
http://www.michaelmoore.com/wo…..php?id=215
Rayne @ 2
Just from reading Scarecrow’s crystal clear analysis, I’d say they should be quaking in their boots.
And Good Morning, everypup
All we have to do is ask the right question. It’s that simple.
I’m particularly amused and impressed by the “New Health Markets” Edwards talks about, essentially putting a Medicare-like non-profit insurer in competition with the existing for-profit insurers. Thom Hartmann was discussing it yesterday as the slow death of the monolithic insurance companies, which could only be a good thing for health care.
Scarecrow @ 7
Pardon moi! Excellent post, Scarecrow. This is an issue that we really need to have a national debate on.
My wife has rheumatoid arthritis, and was lucky enough to be referred to one of the nation’s top doctors when she was oroginally diagnosed 12 years ago. Now that doctor only accepts one insurance plan, and we have to scramble every year to make sure one of our employers carry that plan.
The balancing act between price and coverage is a nightmare.
I grew up under national health in France and then in Australia. I am terribly frustrated at all the misinformation disseminated by the Republican party about the evils of national health. I always chose my own doctors, never had to wait for an appointment, I never had a hassle getting admitted or treated in a hospital, preventive care is abundant, programs like weight loss, anti-smoking, and exercise are provided free or cheap, my sister had wonderful pre- and during and post- natal care when she had her baby, drugs are free or cheap, and the bureaucracy that patients deal with is non-existent, and that doctors deal with is minor. AND our doctors drove Mercedes or Beemers and lived in very nice houses.
That is NOT to say that each system does not have its problems, but since we have the opportunity to design a system from scratch, surely we are smart enough to learn from others’ mistakes and take the best of each program and mitigate the problems? Cobbling together “universal health care” using the existing private insurance programs is just about the worst idea available.
I live in Massachusetts, and as of July 1, Mitt Romney’s law requires that everyone obtain coverage or face penalties. Wow, what a great idea! Penalize people who remain without coverage because they don’t know about the law, don’t know how to find out what to do, cannot navigate the bureaucracy, and have to choose between coverage or food but don’t qualify for help — and call it universal health!
Can’t find Michael Moore’s comments about the Blue Cross internal memo at the Sicko site, so I will provide here in thread. These prefaced the actual memo linked above in my previous comment.
While I’m not sure I subscribe to the notion that profit is and by itself a bad thing, I think that profit as a motivator to provide health care is not working. Nor is non-profit care working where available, since providers which are non-profit are still at the whims of the rest of the industry. The system is a huge mess, with virtually every facet of health care delivery in need of a dramatic overhaul. I just hope that we can muster the political will to address it in 2008 as a nation.
I strongly defend the use of zed on any post. Even Scarecrow’s.
[Waiting to be smited]
snowbird42 @ 10
Thanks, snowbird, must have been looking too narrowly at the Sicko content alone.
It’s Tahlequah time here. Lahoma is fixing breakfast. I’m making the fried cornbread. And we both just wanted to say: We like Mr. Moore.
If you ever get the chance, please, let us invite you to come see us.
Tahlequah – Northeast (Green Country)
http://www.travelok.com/cities…..=Tahlequah
daryljfontaine @ 12
Is there a link to hartmann — if Edwards is getting at the right question through stealth, I’d like to understand that.
Medicare works. For my elderly parents (85 and 90) and for my husband. It doesn’t work for me yet – due to being “under age.” On the other hand what fun it was to try and help the elderly parents negotiate Part D (the drug nightmare! – due to being provided by insurance).
Medicare works for me as a provider. You bill. They pay. Maybe they don’t pay to the tune of a few insurances, but indeed they actually pay more than many!
Insurance can drive everyone nuts, especially when it comes to mental health, where it seems that they want to disrupt treatment, rather than facilitate it. One way to disrupt it is simply to change the managed care agencies the insurers use – year by year. Imagine being in therapy and you can no longer see your therapist….. That’s helpful!
I could write a book!
(but I will restrain myself)
rebmarks — thanks. Your story sounds like many in the movie.
There are three things which pre-occupy Americans. Medical care for their children. Education for their children. And bringing their children home from Iraq. We have kids in our family serving in Iraq. We want them out of harm’s way.
Do Canada and the other countries who have universal healthcare also include mental health care in their systems?
TheraP @ 20
maybe you should write a book!
Would that the frontrunners had but a fraction of the guts that Moore has. Shame on you two.
Thank you for writing this, Scarecrow. Not only are the concepts of insurance and care conflated and confused by the public, but healthcare reporters confuse the two, as well. Both the NYT and WaPo had incorrectly titled stories this wee about the mandate in MA that everyone have health insurance. Both titles called it universal health.
The insurers, I believe, are aiding and abetting this confusion. I wrote a post recently that essentially was a glossary of terms about health care. Single payer is a term that is wrongly attributed to be a socialized medicine model. It’s not – it simply refers to a single source of healthcare reimbursement.
It’s criminal that the all powerful health insurance industry profits at the literal expense of people’s lives. It causes preventable deaths. It causes financial ruin. It destroys lives and it destroys the lives of patients’ families.
How is it that we are mandated to purchase something that has no value, whatsoever, causes suffering and death, and serves only the investors?
Our country is so far off the moral high ground and is sinking in the quicksand of lies, false and misleading rhetoric and unfettered capitalistic greed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 22
And for the many of us who don’t, and will not, have children?
Oklahomans for Gore!
The proposal that is simple and effective and will bring reductions in cost.
The government out of medical care taxes pays providers a yearly payment for providing services to all patients showing up at the door.
Each year the government renegotiates the amount of this payment individually with providers and considers the number of patients, the quality of care, and patient satisfaction in negotiating.
Funds are disbursed monthly without reference to fee-for-service justifications.
The government sets aside a certain proportion of funds each year to handle catastrophic public health situations.
That’s it. Simple.
raven @ 27
;0)
Rayne — great letter; I think the industry assessment is correct. If people see this film, it could radically change the debate in America. Thanks for bringing the letter here.
raven @ 27
Do you not have friends and family who have kids?
I strongly advocate socialized medicine. Can I go to jail for saying that?
anangryoldbroad @ 23
Dunno — any Canadians, etc , here this a.m.?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
Actually, if you go to jail you get socialized medicine. Just like Guantanamo detainees.
Scarecrow @ 19
This is what I found… the podcast of yesterday’s show is available online at the White Rose Society, and this page provides the username and password you need to connect.
The discussion of healthcare to which I was listening came in the 90-minute to 2-hour mark in the commercial radio broadcast.
For some reason,America seems to have forgot that we can multi task. There are close to 300 million of us,one would think that number of people(esp the 230 mil or so over age 18)could come up with all kinds of solutions to problems.
Since America is the only industrialized nation without universal healthcare,AND other countries have been doing it for awhile,we could,oh,maybe learn from their mistakes and design something that would be the envy of the world. We have a hopsital/healthcare infrastructure already in place,it just needs proper funding and less complexity.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…the Dems are never going to present themselves as believable advocates for causes like this until they get over their fear of talking about it and start being more direct. It’s not like the party agenda is a big secret and being wishy washy or running away from it is just going to look weak.
egregious -
Sure, even sub-geeks get muffins *g*. They weren’t virtual but real; just invited my Dem buddy from down the street in to have one. Will have to share recipe if Christy ever does another Pull-up-a-chair food fest again.
Back to read what’s sure to be another good Scarecrow post; movie isn’t on here yet but am looking forward to seeing it.
daryljfontaine @ 36
Thanks for the link.
Elliot @ 24:
Chapter 3
My son was born in Canada – 38 years ago. We paid extra for a private room – $10 a night extra. (they made me stay there for a week) The doctor never billed for his 10% for the outpatient care. The care was wonderful.
Several years ago I sprained my ankle on vacation in the Canadian Rockies. No, not hiking. In a car wash – with an unexpected drop when you needed to open the door and get out briefly. The tiny ER in the next town provided excellent care – for a total of about $600 – because we were visitors to Canada. That’s way cheaper than your US ER. Go and find out!!!
(I think I have said enough for one thread – the moral of the story: move to Canada. Wish I could. The elderly parents are here – too late to move them.)
Socialized medicine is that which is controlled by the government. I don’t think I want to turn over professional practice control to non healthcare providers.
But single payer can be done by adding all Americans to it. Medicare currently spends about 1.5 to 3% in administration costs. Healthcare administration costs, overall run between 30-40%! That includes the layers upon layers upon layers of people who do nothing but handle claims: submitting them, processing them, denying them, appealing them, paying them, etc.
The argument that severely constricting this industry would put thousands out of work doesn’t speak to the need for tens of thousands more physicians and nurses and other patient care providers. It doesn’t speak to every other industry that became obsolete and put workers out of careers. It sure doesn’t speak to the millions who have had their jobs outsourced to other countries while the companies reaped the financial windfalls.
Scarecrow @ 8
I’m not sure you or the other readers have the stomach for it. I have worked at one of if not the main culprit (one of Sicko’s target Insurane companies.. Trust me M. Moore left the gloves on making this movie. It is actually worse than he describes..
SilenceIris @ 38
And a big part of the problem is who funds their campaigns. Pachacutec’s post a couple days back on Hillary et al and who is financing them is a big factor here.
Health care is just one more tool the establishment uses to control working Americans. We’re reduced to begging for a job we don’t particularly want, or begging to keep a job we don’t particularly want, because we need the benefits.
Imagine how liberated we would be if we decoupled health care from a job. We could choose the job we want and leave the job we don’t want.
mc @ 32
Yes, and I spent more than 20 years working in municipal recreation programs trying to change the way parents and other adults treat their kids in sports programs. I questioned OK’s premise that “There are three things which pre-occupy Americans. Medical care for their children. Education for their children. And bringing their children home from Iraq.” I loves the Kiddo but I don’t have to agree with every word he says.
N=1:
Medicare beneficiaries do not receive care controlled by the government. They receive care controlled by themselves and providers.
Insurance beneficiaries often receive care controlled (or rather “patrolled”) by insurance companies – which interfere at every level with the so-called “freedom” the beneficiaries have.
(sorry I broke my vow not to post again – I will blame it on rage)
I just cannot see how anyone who receives the second largest contributions from the health care industry can campaign on that issue with a straight face.
Thanks Scarecrow –
And I have one more issue that I wish had been mentioned in the film, because I don’t even know if most Americans know this could happen to them.
My husband has “full” health coverage for which we pay substantial premiums with a top-of-the-line insurance company. He had a catastrophic accident that cost the insurance company probably over $500K by now (no exaggeration) — not to mention the $thousands we have spent in co-pays. We sued the woman who plowed him down on the road. She had the minimal auto insurance required, and we ended up settling for $23K because she basically has no assets. This does not come close to compensating him, but may help provide for some technological equipment that is otherwise not covered to help him get around, and help pay a few bills.
The insurance company has now put a lien on the settlement, and our lawyer is trying to get them to drop it — my husband’s injuries were so major that he will be affected for the rest of his life, and if more auto insurance or other assets had been available, this would have a been a multi-million dollar case. And now it’s possible that he might not even get the few $$ that WE fought to get with no help from his medical insurance company. Even after paying through the nose for that coverage for years!
If BCBS of Massachusetts is reading this — we appreciate the mostly good experience we have had with you through this hard time, but please, someone at your company has got to realize that this is a cruel joke.
Scarecrow @ 8
They question I’d have for candidates: Why is the US the only one among like the top 20 industrialized countries with out single payer insurance. Don’t any of them realize it is hurting our competitiveness? Just ask the car companies.
I’m one of the people who has experienced health care in France. I got a cut above my eye walking into a door at a museum. A trip to the hospital in an ambulance, accompanied by a paramedic, immediate treatment in an emergency room, glued together, handed a sheet explaining concussion symptoms in English, and when I asked about paying they looked at me like maybe I had a concussion and told me it was free.
We’re going to live in France for extended periods when we retire.
TheraP @ 41
aooh I’ve been to the ER!
What a contrast between here and there.
Mojo — appreciate your perspective. I’m not one who assumes insurance is evil, since it’s a form of shared risk that has many useful applications. But the way it’s set up in health care seems to provide incentives to deny care, not provide it. And it’s understanding the incentive structure that interests me. I deal with market rule at work, and how how you write the rules determines the incentives that people follow. Anything you can add on how the rules affect the incentives would be appreciated.
Rebmarks @49
This is a real lesson, everyone should buy as much uninsured motorists coverage as they possibly can afford. It is relatively cheap and covers exactly this problem.
Excellent, — Thank you, Scarecrow. I wrote to our new Governor, and State Senate and House leaders (Democrats) and asked them what tey were doing about the Unlovely Romney’s Insurance Company Gravy Train he had delivered to us here in Massachusetts….. and naturally have had no answer.
When one reflects on how expensive per head what we DO have is, with lower yardsticks of success than other countries one can see just how we are screwed by the insurance companies.
raven@46:
I misunderestimated your intent. I agree with the notion that there are many other things that pre-occupy Americans. But for those of us with kids, it’s unthinkable that someone wouldn’t be enchanted with the little
brats, er, sweethearts.TheraP @ 47
Medicare doesn’t pay for all services, although the list of what is covered is fairly comprehensive. In that it determines what it will reimburse and at what rate, healthcare is controlled by the government. But not entirely controlled, as you point out.
Another aspect of having for-profit insurers wield such a powerful club is that they can literally force a hospital out of business by low-balling contracted reimbursement rates. When uninsured patients are billed, they are getting the full non-negotiated rate schedule.
Patients receive different levels of care quality, as well, based on their insurance coverage – or lack thereof.
While the Repubs spout off about other countries’ wait times and claim that the US doesn’t have that problem, I answer that’s because millions get no care at all and have been kicked out of the waiting queue. Once you factor in those who are denied care because of an inability to pay, the wait times increase dramatically.
What I go to are the numbers of preventable deaths and the amount of suffering that occurs as a direct result of this heartless, cruel non-system system.
“Caw…CAW!” ~ Sicko inspires grassroots action in Dallas cinema.
Scarecrow, Christy, Jane-any chance of getting Edwards, Obama, or even Hillary here for a chat about health care?
I’d be particularly interested in Edwards’ thoughts, given what Elizabeth is going through now.
Lou Costello @ 58
Oh, good, I meant to include that link but forgot. That’s similar to the reaction in Rayne’s post above. Thanks.
N=1:
You are well informed. You can write the book. I’ll provide the fan club and the cheering section!
Well, having been not insured at times, and insured, I’ll say this. The quality of care and interest in my health and whatever symptoms there may be was determined by whether or not I had an insurance card.
Just one quibble on an otherwise great piece, scarecrow. When you say “Americans will pay for it” you leave the impression that universal, taxpayer funded health care will be more expensive than the current system.
This is not likely. Removing the insurance company middle man, and negotiating with big Pharma on drug costs will have the effect of lowering costs. The US pays more per capita than any other OECD country because of the inefficiencies you cite. For most americans, the net effect on their paychecks will be an increase in take home pay, even with a tax increase to pay for universal health care–because their insurance premium will go away.
My issue with the current insurance driven system is that non-physicians are making medical decisions.
From the provider side of the table I can tell you there have been some real disasters because of this. And you have doctors spending time on the phone with insurers instead of seeing their patients.
masaccio @ 51
Morning all,
I’ve had two experiences where I needed emergency care in Russia…the first time I went to a EuroMed clinic and used my US insurance; the second time I went straight to a hospital and paid zip.
In neither place was I forced to fill out pages of intrusive personal info; all they asked about was allergic reactions to drugs and what meds i was currently taking.
We lost one good chance at single payer back in 1943, I believe, when the AMA organized a campaign against it.
mc @ 59
Good suggestion, and I know Jane, siun are working on getting the candidates here. We had Hillary to talk about women/equal pay issues, and Dodd has done these too.
For me, the scene that crystallized the problem we face in the US was the news footage of George Pataki speaking at Ground Zero committing $40 million to help 9/11 rescue workers, then spelling out all the exceptions, caveats, and clauses. It reminded me of those car dealer ads on the radio, when the fast-talking guy comes in at the end. Pataki couldn’t just say “We’re going to do the right thing by these people, no matter what.” The lawyerization and corporatization of American society has so bent us that we literally can’t do the right thing.
On July 4th I was at a picnic and started to discuss Sicko with a rabid wingnut. It was largely good-natured, but when I described the scene with Pataki. the guy immediately jumps in with the talking point “some of those people are cheats.” And, you know, he’s right, I do recall hearing stories of people trying to collect benefits who had nothing to do with the 9/11 rescue effort. But the fact that the right wing is so ready to discredit any effort to help people because “we’re ultimately paying for it with our already-high taxes” illustrates how successfully the health care and pharma companies have polluted the discourse. We can’t give people benefits because THEY cheat.
mc at 59 — We’re working on it. As you might imagine, they all have incredibly packed schedules, but we’re working on it…
As for the inevitable “you’ll have to wait — gasp! — a few weeks to have elective surgery!” scare argument:
Guess what? I’ve been waiting since 2002 for my insurance company to cover the best non-invasive treatment for my particular aggravating but non-life-threatening (if managed well) disorder. In fact, I’ve waited so long that I am no longer a suitable candidate for this particular treatment. (There’s hope on the horizon in the form of drug therapy, but the most effective drug happens to be RU-486, which the righties have fought to keep docs from prescribing for anything besides abortions; see, if word gets out that it’s useful for things besides terminating pregnancies, it’ll be harder to ban!)
I can’t tell you how amazing this is. As a former member of Capital Blue Cross management team, I recall having heated arguments with the CEO about Blue Cross being in the health care business and not the insurance business. I lost the argument and moved on. To see this reaching a national audience now- wow! Thank goodness for Michael Moore. Just sorry it took so long. The stories insurance company employees could tell! It isn’t pretty.
Your asking for a second political party.
We don’t have one.
The Democratic Party is little more than Republicans-lite.
And it’s high time we all faced up to that fact.
Every single one of the candidates is in the tank for Health Care Bandits — including Obama.
Do not forget that his lawyer defended the Irving’s jail-skipping.
N-1 @ 57:
On the provider side the only thing the government does is to ask if you will “accept assignment” or not. Psychologists, however, do not get a choice. You must accept what Medicare pays. So there are many psychologists who do not accept Medicare patients.
For doctors who choose “not to accept assignment” they can charge whatever they want and the patient must pay whatever Medicare does not pay.
So there is “choice” in Medicare if you’re a physician. And patients – beware!
jayackroyd @ 63
I didn’t say anything about relative costs; what you say seems intuitively correct, and I’ve seen articles that support it, but I honestly don’t know. My only point — drawing from the experience in other countries — is that this is such an important public service that people will pay for it. If it costs less than what we pay now for a clearly inferior system, all the better — in fact, that becomes a major selling point.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 68
What?! They’re too busy to hang out at the Lake? I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked.
*g*
David Ehrenstein @ 71
Dean’s not. Witness Vermont.
(By the way: Ironically, one of the few areas where Joe Lieberman is even remotely progressive was in certain facets of health care, and universal health care was a big issue for him. If Gore had been allowed into the White House in 2000, Lieberman and Dean may well have been tasked with working together on this.)
My Two Cents on “Sicko” nanoseconds after first seeing it last month
Dane Janeiro @ 67
Look at the incentive structure. If you need care, but you can’t get it, you have an incentive to “cheat” in ways that make you eligible. The solution is not to rail against or persecute cheaters but to change the structure to provide the care.
Scarecrow, this is a brilliant post. You are one seriously insightful Dog.
This is bedrock. And it informs this country’s whole approach to legislation and problem-solving. Up to and including how to deal with BushCo. “Start with the right question.”
Brilliant, I tell you.
oh, Good Morning, Christy. Please excuse my bad manners this morning.
More coffee please.
Because I had to see this again:
Rayne @ 15
Mr. Gore has this to say about the Libby deal:
“I thought it was improper,” Mr. Gore said of the decision. “He was charged with knowledge that could incriminate his bosses in the White House, which included the vice president and the president. I thought it was very disappointing.”
“Start with the right question.”
And the right question proceeds from the entire basis on which this society is constructed. Unless its changed there will be no change.
I’d much rather pay higher taxes for comprehensive health care for all than what we have now, a system that enriches insurance & pharma corps while americans get the shaft financially & healthwise.
If paying taxes for health care is damned as socialism by the privatization crowd then why aren’t they shouting about paying taxes for police and fire departments?
Just wanted to remind everyone that Libby had his sentence commuted. In case you forgot. Almost 80 posts and no mention of Libby….
This post is just excellent. Phenomenal work, scarecrow.
Well I’M sure !
Profit is a license to kill.
I want Karl Rove hauled into court so bad, I can taste it!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 80
Yup. (This is also what makes it light-years different from the Marc Rich pardon. Rich was pardoned for things he did in the 1970s, when Bill Clinton was still in Arkansas and the two men never worked for each other. Libby, on the other hand, was Cheney and Bush’s button man, sent out to do their dirty work.)
It should be obvious that the idea of health insurance is going to be screwed up from the get go-When it is in the insurers best interest to deny the claim, how can we have good health care?
In my business it so happens that the big bosses and owners of these health insurance companies are my customers. In case there was any doubt-they are fabulously wealthy. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but of course the money they have is derived from denied claims.
With regards to costs, right now it costs $6,000 annually to add me to my wife’s health care plan. I’m guessing tax increase to cover universal care would be considerably less.
If we’re going to have insurance based health care (foolish, IMV), then the only way to proceed is put all Americans in one risk pool, and commoditize insurance.
ccmask @ 84
that’s because, with a few hundred exceptions, no one here thinks it’s important.
TheraP @ 61
Thanks, TheraP! I’m flattered, but I’m on a steep learning curve, myself, and that is with mumble-de-mumble years working in healthcare.
My sole brush with the NHS in Britain came as I was on a bus tour, and the tour director developed a severe abscess. He asked me to evaluate it, and I thought he should have it I&D’d (opened, drained and sutured). But since we were far from his home, I asked him if this would be feasible. He explained that at our next stop he would simply walk into the clinic and have it taken care of. No waits, no fuss, no charge. The only thing I did was to change his dressing for him, but they gave him all of the instructions for that so that whoever he chose – family member, friend, etc. would be able to do that for him.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 87
As much as I want ‘the K’ hauled into court the idea of tasting him is beyond disgusting. More brain bleach and quickly please
When up to forty dollars of every one hundred spent go to administrative costs, just think how much money could be freed to go directly to healthcare services and infrastructure.
Another thing that insurance supports is unnecessary competition. That’s why every hospital that can is building “heart hospitals” and ignoring infrastructure for patients with chronic medical diseases – hearts pay $$ while chronic disease has much lower reimbursement rates.
If you check the diagnoses of people who wait ungawdly amounts of time in emergency departments because of no bed availability, the vast majority have chronic medical diagnoses (as opposed to surgical diagnoses or acute medical conditions).
That’s discrimination, but it doesn’t get called that.
Scarecrow @ 53
OK Scarecrow… Since you are genuinely interested, I will share one small “incentive related” anecdote with you. I just hope these people don’t ID me :-).. (Think of the movie Extreme Measures).
I am in the Information Technology world. What if someone were to ask you to write a program which would produce a demographic report using a VAST claims experience database. What if this report was a comparison and a “what if” of different claims remittance procedures be a used for filing prescription drug claims. What if management was using this report to identify the most complicated and lengthy process so that patients (especially the high cost elderly patients) would simply NOT get their prescriptions filed. I could stop there because this in itself is a big cost savings for the insurance company. But,, you know how greedy they are.. they took this one step further.. What if they then asked you to run mortality analysis on these patients who have QUIT taking their meds ?? The event of death is even MORE profitable than the drug costs. Patient has no more claims PERIOD..
These are the types of things going on behind the scenes at insurance companies…
My humble opinion is that they should be TOTALLY removed from the health care system.. Much like what is espoused in Sicko..
mc @ 56
We’re cool.
I’m in Canada and yes, mental health coverage is also part of our health care plan. It is also possible to find a psychiatrist that charges over and above what the health plan would charge and people also do this if they have the bucks. But it is always possible to receive the care that you need if you don’t have it.
For myself and my family we have received amazing health care through both of my parents illnesses and death and at no time during the horrible experience did I ever have to think, “How are we going to pay for this?”
I am amazed that Americans don’t have what we have. I hope Sicko goes a long to way to starting to change this for all your sakes.
N=1:
Don’t forget that a whole lot of money is already there in government services, such as Military, VA, and public health. Just put it into the general pot.
Why, for example, should Vets have to “prove” they need care? If everyone gets care, no one need prove the reason it should be provided!
Yay, N=1!!!!
And let’s hear it for public service in the form of compassionate health care without greed!
Careful, scarecrow. First you ask questions like this about health care, and before you know it, you’ll be asking about providing environmental policy that actually cares for everyone’s environment, educational priorities that actually provide quality education for all, and veteran’s affairs programs that actually provides care for veterans.
And yes, I’ve had enough. You?
I used to have an Individual Health Care Plan by Humana. I paid my premium for 3 years and never once went to the doctors or used any facility. They dropped me by giving me a 120-day notice (which Nelson in Florida approved as long as they gave notice). When I called them up and asked why, they said I wasn’t profitable. I swear to god. I asked had I cracked my ass, would that have helped? I’m not even kidding here…
Health care in Canada costs 30% or more less per capita than in the USA and everyone gets it here. The main reason is that payment to doctors and hospitals is less complicated, you present your health card, they send one bill to one place, and get one check. They always get paid and on time. They need fewer accountants and bill collectors, there are almost no claims agents, lobbyists, ad men, etc. Doctors can charge less for their time because their expenses are lower and take home pay a higher percentage of total income.
It works. It might take 3 or 4 years to make a transition in the USA, but the total bill to be covered by taxpayers would surely drop from that which is picked up by individuals, companies, and taxpayers today.
The ONLY answer is to take profit out of the healthcare system. NO for profit insurance allowed. It must ALL be non-profit health coverage. Whether it is one or several to choose from (which is wrong on its face because it means you have to choose what you want to be denied healthcare treatment for by definition), whatever the case may be there must be no nonsense about “maximizing shareholder value” or maximizing profits.
Peterr @100:
Amen, brother!
Mojo — that is truly chilling, but I think it’s a perfectly logical response to the incentives — immoral, but logical, and whenever we set up a conflict like that, moral tends to lose.
Rather than a national program I would prefer to see medical care regulated and paid for through individual states. Closer to the hospitals, better feedback from communities.
Robert Paehlke @ 102
That’s an important point. Not only does this type of model eliminate a lot of extraneous layers, but it also makes the care and services more efficient. less paperwork for the providers, less time that providers spend on the phone trying to get authorizations and appealing denials, trying to find out the ever-changing rules (that’s another game played by insurers) and on and on.
Everyone should be treated the same – present for care and service and receive the medically necessary and therapeutic care in partnership with the judgment of the licensed provider.
OT, but still kinda on-topic. Somebody better call the wahmbulance-John Gibson’s upset.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0705.html
OT, or maybe not . . .
Rupert Murdoch has apparently succeeded in bis bid to purchase Dow Jones, Inc. If you think the WSJ has been a conservative shill for precisely the kind of worshipping of the God of Profits that gave us the insurance system described here, you haven’t seen anything yet.
Peterr @ 100
Yep, and good morning to west coasters. Don’t get sick, but see SiCKO. Has the heat wave hit the Bay Area yet?
Praedor Atrebates @ 101
Unfortunately…. A Health insurance company MUST (”maximizing shareholder value” or maximizing profits)// it is BY law the ONLY thing a corporation can do.. Micheal Moore did a previous movie about exactly this.. it goes way back to the way corporations were formed at the same time the slaves were freed.. This was probably some congressional compromise to to ensured perpetual slavery in this country..
egregious @ 105
That’s an interesting idea, but difficult to do as many facilities – especially academic teaching ones – serve as referral centers and take care of patients from a wide geographical base. There are also many places that don’t have the needed service or provider in-state and so patients travel elsewhere for care. IIRC, Montana has a dearth of high risk OB units and services and so many patients travel to Salt Lake City for their prenatal and delivery care. In the mid-west, cities that are on state borders such as St. Louis and Cincinnati also serve multi-state patient populations. I’m just not sure that it’s feasible to look at individual state control.
Scarecrow @ 109
Oh yes — and most buildings and people here are not equipped for that. I’m right on the bay, so it doesn’t get too ridiculously bad for me, but for lots of others it is just not something their homes are built to handle.
OT….interesting but not surprising
“HARTFORD, Connecticut (Reuters) – U.S. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, an independent who supports Democrats in Congress despite his backing of the Iraq war, said on Thursday he was not ruling out endorsing a Republican in the White House race.”
I bet no one at FDL is surprised. Harry Reid, however, should go Cheney himself!
Good morning. This will be my first posting here but not my last (I hope).
I was born and raised in the U.S. and lived almost all of my first 42 years there before immigrating to Quebec.
My contrasts between medical services over the years in the U.S. were profound (employer coverage, military coverage, HMO, etc.) but nothing prepared me for coming here.
After extensive medical examinations and disclosures (I had TB as a youngster) I was admitted as a Landed Immigrant and issued my medical card.
I read up on what was involved and my wife, born and raised here in Quebec, answered all of my questions… and trust me, the more I asked, the more I became confused.
My first trip to see my doctor was a shock; No paperwork beyond the medical questionnaire, no insurance forms, no bureaucracy… nothing. Just medical care. Period.
As stated by others, maternity services were stunningly low (my son was delivered by a midwife in a hospital) and my wife received almost a year off from work (a co-worker, who’s wife did not have a job, received 28 weeks of paternity leave), local clinics (CLSCs) provide out-patient services during the days and hospitals provide it 7/24/365 to ANYONE who comes in the door… and ask for a medical card later.
Is it perfect? No… but it’s a damn sight better than the alternative South of the border.
And in answer to a previous post: Yes, mental health services are covered as are dental and physiotherapy and in some cases acupuncture and massage therapies (my wife received these services subsidized after the first 3 free consultations).
Good luck, my friends… it took a brave man to push this through a more responsive government up here years ago, and the politicians who could see beyond the personal entitlements they give to themselves and their families.
When it comes to the health and well being of Americans, that question is paramount: Can we all have quality healthcare when we need it? Clearly, the present stacked system isn’t working for all of us. Profit at the expense of a well nation is sick. America’s standing on the list of healthcare success is down right embarrassing. We also pay through the nose and, get denied for procedures and go bankrupt. But a select few on Wall Street are rich at our expense. Now that’s sick.
To follow up on N=1 @ 111 (boy do you get the good numbers!):
It’s better to have the huge insurance pool of the whole nation. Otherwise, think about it! If State A has better benefits than State B, then I’ll just move on over….
N=1,
States can make reciprocal arrangements if there are patients in one place and resources in another.
Good morning, everyone.
Great diary, Scarecrow. You nailed the essence of “SiCKO” very well. I just saw the movie the other day, and it’s probably Moore’s very best film ever. And, as desperate as many are to find faults with the details in this film, the critics are coming up very, very short.
This is why, at the moment, I’m leaning towards Edwards as my favorite candidate. He has been at the forefront of the issue, and has said clearly that if we need to raise taxes to pay for universal health care, then we must do it – for the good of the nation and its people.
My spouse has a great way of putting it. Right now, those of us with health insurance pay big premiums, and many people don’t have any coverage at all. If you pool all 300 million of us into one system, the cost of care will be lower for most people. Those who need to use the system & services less will be balanced out with those who need expensive care. Then, people don’t go bankrupt due to a health issue (which can be exacerbated by financial strain).
I don’t want to spoil any of the film for those who haven’t seen it, so I’ll just say there were several things in the film that I found surprising – particularly when talking with people in countries with universal health care. The discussion about what one couple’s largest expenses are was a surprise. For us, after our mortgage, our largest expenses are car and healthcare – and we’re insured (as of the moment) and healthy.
If you haven’t seen the movie, go, and make sure to take some friends. I want to make sure that many of my friends who are skeptical of the notion of “national healthcare” see this film – I think it clearly debunks a lot of strongly-held myths about both our system and what many call “socialized medicine”.
Mojo @ 110
That is why I want to do away with all for-profit health insurance. The profit motive has no place in this part of the system. It is, by definition, a means of killing people by denying them what they need. It encourages denial of needed healthcare. Instead, I’d like to see health insurance cooperatives or heathcare unions similar to credit unions. Those covered and paying should have a direct say in whether or not THEY get treatment, etc. I somehow doubt that people will deny themselves or their families needed meds or treatments the way some soulless monster bean counter does.
In Canada each province governs its own health care. I’m in Ontario and I have an OHIP card which means Ontario Health Insurance Card.
Welcome CharlieAmerica!
Glad you joined us here at the lake.
Did Sicko also mention that if a Canadian needs emergency surgery that cannot be performed in Canada, our Gov’t sends the patient to America for the procedure and still foots the entire bill, which can be three times as much as the same operation in Canada?
Scarecrow, I’d like to pose another question to frame the debate … “Do Americans need someone (read, Insurance co.) between them and their Doctors?”
I live in Brazil, a developing country, that offers so much more than the USA does. Of course, Brazil is famous for things like making generic versions of expensive medicines (think AIDS drugs, which Brazil makes at a fraction of the US cost and sells to African countries that can’t afford the bloated American prices, often getting into a bit of trouble for it.)
Recently I took my 3 children to get vaccines. 2 of the 3 are in the country extra-legally (hey, just because you can get a free vasectomy doesn’t mean that other parts of the government work well!) I was worried that they wouldn’t see my kids because all I have for identification are their id’s and birth certificates from another country and no proof that they are here legally. The nurse didn’t even look at their ids. All she wanted were their vaccination records. I can only imagine a similar situation in the US…it would probably end up with the 2 and 3 year olds being deported.
I went to a public birthing center to have my first child (the first in Sao Paulo!) I didn’t pay a cent even though at the time I was there on a tourist visa. Not a cent. Later, I took that baby to the ER for some horrible stomach virus and they treated her (some medicine, IV fluids) for free. Granted, the public facilities aren’t pretty, most of the time they could use a new coat of paint or a more comfortable bed, but the quality of care, in my experience, is the same as in the private sector.
If Brazil can manage to treat its population, why can’t the US? The longer I stay out of my country, the more I see from outside (where the view is often better), the more I’m afraid to go back. We’ve been talking about returning, (if we can navigate the permanent residency thing), but I’m honestly having second thoughts. To have to work at a job I don’t like or that doesn’t pay well just for the benefits, that’s just depressing. But the thought of not having health insurance when we have 3 kids, now that’s scary, scary enough to keep me out of the country just a little while longer.
ccmask @ 84
Hang on for the next thread, coming to a screen near you. But not yet . . . today is about
patientspatience.I saw SICKO yesterday, and am enjoying this thread immensely. My experience of it was, you walk out of the theatre afterward without the slightest rationalization or sympathy left for the current system. The film is a gift to all of us for the way it reveals the reality of the health care experience is in other countries: you have to see it on a screen to believe it.
Surfing the web subsequently to the viewing, I ran across one of those “he has his points, BUT…” reviews, which always end up being ultimately dismissive of the film in question. In this particular hack’s view the “But…But…” had to do with A) it would cost $200 million MORE for us to implement France’s version of healthcare (conveniently, he didn’t cite a source for the statistic) and B) Moore’s portrayal of an English doctor living very well in a socialized system was deceptive since in the US, docs can make hundreds of thousands more (which doesn’t strike ME as a particularly compelling reason to deprive nearly 50 million citizens of health care, but maybe that’s just me).
We’re gonna be seeing a lot of sputtering “but…but”s from the big insurers, pharmas, and their lackeys, but if the Blue Cross guy’s letter is any indication, they got NUTTIN.
And I, having seen the film, now have a new litmus test for Dem presidential candidates: universal, single-payer health insurance for all, and NOTHING LESS. (woops, I think Mrs. Clinton just dropped off my list of Dem presidential possibilities.)
Scarecrow @ 124
I’m on pins and needles.
I think that the candidates should be honest about and get rid of money attached to big Pharma before we support them.
Petrocelli @ 122
I no longer have anyone between me and my doctor, although for some services I have my GP between me and a specialist. I woudl suppose that this helps to cut down on the over-use of specialty services but I have never been denied access.
As stated by Sarah above, each provance regulates the way its medical services are delievered, but my helth card is viable in every provance without question. States may be able to do the same thing using the existing “equity laws” from the Federal Governement that mandate a minimum level of service but allowing each state to expand upwards from there as they wish.
Quiet Friday at work…
The Dems listen to MoveOn.org. How do we get them to get us united?
The thing I don’t seem to grapple with very well is that many people ‘out there’ complain about the lack of medical care and yet these same folks don’t bother to vote. Want change? Know the issues and vote.
ironranger @ 83
I agree with you here. But, there are many people who DO whine about our other public services, such as mail, police, fire and education. A lot of people believe “privatization solves everything”, and they have this crazy notion that competition will make for better services. No, competition often results in PROFITS being the top goal, marketing as a second goal, and quality of services falls behind.
I’m not against the capitalist system. But, when it comes to what I see as basic human serivces that should be available to all, privatization has proven to be unbalanced and unfair. To me, access to healthcare is a human right, and should be administered in the most fair and unbiased manner.
N=1: what an interesting uh, hypothetical you raise regarding how healthcare companies could theoretically research statistics and make the system difficult to navigate, therefore saving them money. I suppose that if your top priority is to make money, you will do what it takes to ensure profits come first.
Scarecrow @ 34
Oh yes. Psychiatrists and there are meny, many comprehensice programs at about every level from street delivery to research.
See for instance Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. I’ll direct you to the wiki site for Toronto General Hospital, it’s comprehensive.
The system works fine. But it is under attack from US privatizeers.
egregious @ 117
I’m intrigued. What would the advantages be in state oversight vs. national?
CharlieAmerica — welcome and thanks for the input and the answer to the mental care question.
Okay, Emptywheel’s new thread is ready. Great discussion today, folks. Thanks for the comments.
And those who have more stories to tell about how the systems — ours, yours — work, you can keep bringing them here.
My favorite moment in Sicko was when Reagan was talking about how sociaized medicine would have the gummint telling doctors what they can and can’t do and telling patients what treatments they can and can’t have. Hmmm. Just what we have today — only worse, because the insurance companies who do make these choices have that profit motive — even if they’re “not-for-profit” in terms of the IRS.
I remember taking my daughter to college and driving through Connecticut, seeing all those huge insurance company palaces being built back in the late 90s — and the profits haven’t stopped since, of course.
My other favorite moment was the British MP interview in which he reminded all of us of the power of democracy over wealth. I know it’s hard to be optimistic right now, with the Libby pardon and the privatization of damned near everything — but when I heard how many donors had given to Barack Obama, and when I see the numbers of people who contribute and visit and support blogs like this one, I can’t help but think that there is still hope.
I have been a medical coder for fifteen years now and been responsible for filing and collecting on medical claims. This has to be the most frustrating job ever!! Talk about wanting to pull your hair out at the end of the day! I was considering going into business for myself helping people collect on their medical claims because through the years I have learned the little tricks. HIPPA put an end to that though. I can’t stress enough how true the movie depicts the insurance industry.
Praedor Atrebates @ 119
I’m in total agreement. This ugly side of capitalism, which is grossly mis-applied in our heathcare system is why people bash it so hard.. We REALLY need to re-vamp our whole capitalist system and use the free market where is works for use and use a more socialized system for where capitalism hurts us.
Shame shame shame shame shame.
I did a search on this page and there is not one mention of the name… of the ONLY CANDIDATE to offer Universal Health Care.
Universal SINGLE-PAYER health Care. He was touting it in 2004 when he ran for President. Back then not a single other candidaqte even had the courage to use the term “Universal Health Care.”
Now all the other Dem candidates are saying the words.
So, I’ll buck the trend here and mention his name.
Dennis Kucinich.
Since he was so obviously ignored on here I’ll repeat it a few times.
Dennis Kucinich.
Dennis Kucinich.
Dennis Kucinich.
Dennis Kucinich.
Dennis Kucinich.
Petrocelli @ 122
Petrocelli – no, they didn’t mention that. But, I recently learned about that system in Canada. Brilliant.
They also didn’t mention that if a Canadian wants to, he/she can select a doctor that is outside of the national healthcare system. So, if Barbie desperately wants a nose job, and the doctor she chooses in the national healthcare system says that she’ll have to wait three months until after non-elective surgeries are performed, and Barbie just can’t wait for that nose job, Barbie’s Daddy can pay for surgery next week by going to an out-of-network doctor in Canada.
Answer to your other question: I don’t like having bureaucrats in between me and my doctor. I also don’t like many of the new “self-insured” plans, where a company that provides health insurance to their employees through a provider gets the bills and records of what procedures you’re having done, what medicines you take, etcetera. That just opens the door for possible discrimination in the workplace.
Waving to CharlieAmerica – great to see a new face here!
Time for me to fly – parties to attend! I hope everyone has a terrific day.
landofthefree:
I agree that many complain about any taxes but a lot of repubs I know would draw the line at police & fire protection. Taxes for health care is a bad idea to them but privatizing police & fire would make them uneasy. Odd that they don’t connect the dots.
egregious @ 105
Too big a problem for poorer states. Also, state political corruption is always a factor to be concerned about, sadly.
ostrich at 139: you’re right; I knew about his position, but I didn’t want this to be a survey of the candidates position, even though Kucinich seems to get it. I wanted to focus on the generic question — and nudge the other candidates as a group. It was my call, shameful or otherwise.
grayslady @ 142
China has found a solution for that..
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07…..mp;emc=rss
Michael Moore supports the bill co-authored by Presidential Candidate Dennis Kucinich.
HR-676
So, while all the other Dem candidates are talking, and talking, and talking…
Dennis Kucinich is DOING something about it.
HR-676
I am really surprised that nobody wanted to mention it. And him. Eerie. Spooky.
Like going to someone’s house for a party and the host of the party isn’t there.
The ONLY candidate to have been WORKING for the tens of millions of Americans with no health coverage, and DOING something about it.
HR-676
Dennis Kucinich.
My favorite part of Sicko was the interview with the French family, asking about major expenses after the mortgage. The answer: fish. Actually, it turns out to be travel on their 6 weeks of vacations per year.
HotFlash @ 132
… and, I would add that BigPharma still makes tons of $$$ in Canada by overcharging for their meds …
CharlieAmerica @ 128
Hey Dude, I am Canadian too, eh ?!! *g*
And it’s emptywheel upstairs, not Christy.
SC “health care is an essential public service to which every person is entitled”
Scarecrow what an incredible post! Micheal Moore will be pleased with your insights and recommendation.
Your post reminded me of some things that I learned reading Ron Susskind’s book “The Price of Loyalty” about Former Secretary of the Treasury Paul O’Neils experience during the first few years of the Bush administration. O’Neil said that he and Alan Greenspan had plans to take a sizeable amount of the surplus left over from the Clinton administration and feed it into the upcoming Social Security shortfalls for the boomers. The Bush administration sure took care of the surplus.
Does anyone think the Bush administration had plans to bankrupt the Social Security System so that they could privatize?
Yeah, privatize Social Security by funnelling our youngster’s payments into Wall Street accounts.
Let’s see. If you are a Boomer and have a 401K, at a certain age, you must, by law, start taking payouts. Almost all 401Ks are invested in the stock market.
So that means, by law, the Boomers will have to start selling off their stocks.
What do you think will happen to the stock market when 70 million people all start selling off their stocks?
Oh, sure. If I was a yougnster I’d sure want my money in a system based on the value of the stock market and no way to get out when 70 million Americans start selling off.
An those folks at Enron loved it too.
Yeah right!
I think Michael Moore is great and he’s on the right track. But we’ll get universal health care in this country the same day Bush and Cheney are served impeachment papers.
Interestingly enough, the Blue Plans are whining about how they are non-profits and yet are still being lumped in with for-profit insurers. They are half right. While the individual corporate licensee of the Blue Cross/Blue Shield trademark from the BCBSA MUST be structured as a non-profit, the holding companies that own and operate these non-profits are most certainly for-profit companies and almost always run for-profit companies right alongside the non-profits known as BC/BS plans. I worked for one; I know. I worked for the Blue Cross company, which was non-profit, but my paychecks were signed and bankrolled by the for-profit company that owned or licensed that particular Blue Cross franchise. That parent company held the profits of the Blue plan in securites and other assets and then borrowed and lent to its other subsidiaries against those assets in order to bankroll for-profit enterprises, also owned and operated by the same parent company. So when the execs say that Blue plans are non-profit, technically, they’re not lying – the Blues are set up as non-profits as a requirement of their licensing agreements with the BCBSA. But the parent companies have other for-profit interests that are bankrolled by their non-profit enterprises. This serves two purposes – it hides the profit generated by the so-called non-profit, and also allows aboveboard profit generation for the parent company. It’s basically legalized money laundering.
Scarecrow,
Great summary of the movie and the points that MM is trying to make. I thought he hit just the right tone – sobering but using gentle humor.
I thought Moore’s atarting the movie by talking about the uninsured and then shifting to those with insurance, who you think would be better off, was extremely effective.
I left the theater feeling not just angry, but terribly sad. The contrast between how other countries value their citizens and the quality of their lives, and the way that the US devalues human life was pretty stark.
I wish the American people would use the power they were given by our Founding Fathers to address fundamental issues like – what does our country stand for and why are so many Americans living lives of pain? Why do so many Americans seem to think that improving their lives and having a government of the people by the people and for the people is not worth the effort? It really baffles me.
Wonderful post! This issue and its solution are so clear and easy to understand, when you frame it as “ask the right question”!
If you live in California and have a health care story to share please go to Its Our Health Care. Org
I went on a speaking tour with them last week. We went to San Diego, LA, Bakersfield, Fresno, SF, and Sac. In LA Michael Moore was at our rally.
At each city there were two or three people telling their stories. These were strong, amazing people who are standing up and letting the world know what has happened to them. Many stories, as you can imagine, were heartbreaking.
Its Our Health Care is a multi group effort started by the California Labor Coalition.
The health care problem and the war are provoking the huge sea change in this country. The people are awake. Everyone has been effected by these two tragedies. The republicans are history is they don’t rig the vote.
anangryoldbroad @ 23
Yes, they do. As stated above, if the patient needs “x-type” care, the patient gets what they need. That INCLUDES dental and eye care, something some insurance plans in the USA don’t provide.
I have friends in Great Britain, Germany and Canada, and they think our ah, system, is insane.
The privatized health care industry in this country is a disease in itself, spreading sickness, terror, stress, bankruptcy, misery, and death among our citizens, and all you have to see is the ease with which citizens of other countries get their health needs taken care of, to know how ruinous private for-profit health “care” is in this country.
I’m no shill for Moore, but we gotta get everyone to see this friggin movie. That’s the only way to create a groundswell for taking profit out of health care, and creating a system that WORKS. We’re in for a massive, humongous shit-storm of propaganda from the profiteers, and well-funded, devious attempts to short-circuit real reform (compromise it out of existence, etc.), but we’ve gotta stay focused on this.
I’d like, when having to choose an insurance plan, to have documents that are easy to understand. They seem to be written by lawyers for lawyers.
A couple of years ago, I went through this, and the insurance company said I couldn’t go to my own doctor, because I lived more than thirty miles from the doctor’s location. In Los Angeles, it’s easier to drive thirty miles than to find a new doctor closer to where you live. And you might end up moving closer to the doctor at some point.
Have friends and family in Great Britain, France and Italy. NONE of them would trade their health care systems for what passes for one in the U.S.. They look at this system and what Bush, his sycophants and enablers in the MSM have and are doing just shake their heads. Quelle dommage! America is beginning to be seen as a lost cause in most of Europe because of the corrupt, manipulative politics and the general indifference and ignorance of the American public.
I had a fiery discussion with some Friends on the 4th. They insist that England, France and Canada pay over 50% income tax to fund their health care systems, and why should we?
I have been trying to find the answer, any leads would be appreciated. 50% sure sounds awfully high to me. I certainly did not hear any complaints in the movie about the tax rates.
daryljfontaine @ 12
Yes! That is the one thing that sets Edward’s plan apart and above all the others. Hartman is right. This opens the door to single payer and could eventually be the answer to everything. No one could possibly be against competition, right?
nuQler ostrich @ 151
My 401(k) equivalent has the bulk of the money invested in government securities, with a small percentage in stocks and bonds. I agree that if everyone invests in stocks, it will create a problem.
The solution is to pay attention to where your 401(k) money is actually going.
Good idea! All get together and hammer out a plan that makes sense. That’s what happens at the local, then county, then state level of the Democratic Party. The candidates won’t do it because they have very different views on governance from right to left in our party. Each wants his/her view to prevail.
Your thesis errors from the start – that all candidates have a plan. What is Hillary’s actual plan? I don’t think she has one that she has published, that can be analyzed. What is the difference between Barack’s and John’s?
John’s is mandatory coverage of everyone, and it has a Medicare Plus plan that everyone can join, whether or not you have the money. It will compete with the current private mess, so that eventually people will choose to go over to the better government plan. It’s a way to get to single payer (Kucinch’s better single payer) without taking on the entire health care kingsdom all in one battle.
Why not fight the battle now? Who will fight with Dennis? Who will fight with John? Will you? Do you trust the voters, the news consumers, the political press, and other Dems enough to take on the richest biggest baddest CEO’s in the country? The people who suck up the health care dollars and leave millions dying on the streets and homes with their diseases?
What are you willing to do? Do you have the courage of a Michael Moore? Would you defend and support your single payer candidate, or would you criticize a $400 haircut?
The political press has John in the crosshairs already, while Hillary makes the cover of Fortune Magazine, “Business Loves Hillary.” Fortune calls John the union man, the bad news for business because he would bring in mandatory healthcare and strengthen the unions. All bad things to the corporate world, but they do see the differences between the candidates. They do know a populist when they see one in John, and a corporate client and one of their own in Hillary – and in this article they like Obama, too, because he is non-partisan and business friendly.
Again, what are you willing to do to fight for a populist candidate? I find it odd that that lefties on the blogs don’t see their friends and opponants as clearly as they do in Fortune Magazine. John and Dennis are actual progressive populists, and the others are not.
The Canadian system is based on the federal Canada Health Act that requires the provinces to have a comprehensive universal transferrable system of medical care. If you get scraped off the trans Canada highway they will send you to the nearest hospital and fix you up. If you need to be sent to the big city trauma center in Toronto or Calgary or to a specialized burn unit in the States you go and the system pays the bills. The only real problem in the last step is the border. If the burn victim doesn’t have a passport, homeland security won’t let him in (he’s not much of a threat)
If you want to go see a doctor you go to a FD (if you can get one) or to a walk in clinic or to the hospital ER. They swipe your card and provide the medical care. They don’t usually provide the drugs. They are not covered by the system. You may be asked to pay for the crutches but not for the actual cast. There is a wiggly line that goes through what is covered and what is not but its peripheral stuff like that. They DO NOT pay for elective cosmetic surgery or routine (almost all) dental services. If you want a nose job or a boob job or liposuction you pay cash. If you need one they will consider paying and if you really need one they will pay (post mastectomy reconstruction).
Health care is rationed by waiting lists for common but usually not life threatening stuff like hip or knee replacements. If you are really sick you might show up in the morning at a hospital somewhere and spend the night far away at a specialty hospital referred to the specialists in the big teaching hospitals.
They don’t actually have to pay to send you home. They usually do but sometimes you can be having a heart attack and they send you to the nearest open cardiac place which could be in another city and then they just discharge you. This happened a few years ago and the guy complained to the press (smart guy) Then they made arrangements to get him home. This kind of silly stuff makes the news here in Canada. They don’t pay for your living expenses while you are on the transplant waiting list. This adds up real fast if you don’t live in the same city but I think its the same in the US.
Doctors put the fee codes in the patients file and the billing software sends the file to the Health plan and their computer issues a cheque. The only refusals are for inconsistent information such as an old card or the patient moved and has not updated their address. You can see doctors (including psychiatrists) some chiropractic appointments and lots or other providers with another wiggly line about what is not covered. Optometrists and eyeglasses are not covered in Ontario but opthalmologists visits are covered.
nuQler ostrich @ 145
Yes, I find it extremely disconcerting that DK never gets mentioned in the so-called progressive blogs, except to repeat how unelectable the short man is, or how laughable some aspect or other he has. I see bitching about how the corporate media chooses our front runners, and then the only candidate wannabees that get discussed are the “serious frontrunners”, you know, the ones chosen by the M$M. Disappointing to me. Wish I hadn’t tossed out the “Kucinich 2004″ shirt I had a while ago.
Overall you hit the right notes with this, but like Moore, there’s an important question left unasked and unanswered: how to get from where we are to universal no-hassle care.
My point is, we can’t get there while the insurance industry is fat and happy. There’s a very good reason that the Democratic candidates keep proposing absurd complicated half-measures – it’s because they are being paid to do so. As Moore points out in the movie, Hillary is second in the Senate in the amount of health industry largesse she receives. You think she’s going to bite that hand? Think again. And it’s certainly not just Hillary – it’s virtually every Senator and Representative, Democrat or Republican. The health industry owns our government (or co-owns it along with a handful of other powerful lobbies).
Honestly, I understand why Moore didn’t wade into the issue of how to get from here to there in the movie, because the answer is so very discouraging. The bottom line is that as long as we have health insurers, pharmaceuticals and the AMA buying our representatives, we won’t have the kind of care citizens of other countries take for granted. I’ve thought on this a lot since seeing the movie a few nights ago, and the only thing I can come up with that would ever get us there would be for all the healthy people in the country to drop their health coverage, let the insurers, for-profit hospitals etc collapse under their own bloated weight once the profit is carved out of the system, and start over. Unless and until the health industry is deprived of the obscene profits they use to buy the government, they’ll continue to buy it, and we’ll continue to play Russian roulette with the health of pretty much everyone in the country.
TTinthehighdesert @ 161
South end of a northbound bull.
I’m Canadian. The top end of federal tax in our country – payable on your income over $118,000 – was 29% in 2006. To as low as 15.25% on everything between ~$10K and $36K. See the form here. Provincial tax adds a bit to that – in my experience, provincial adds maybe a quarter again to the amount. (The actual provincial numbers for 2006 were a flat 10% of your income, but with a larger base exemption to the tune of about $16K, and the other deductions making a larger impact here as well.)
There are quite a lot of deductions which ordinary people can access which reduce that overall rate. Nowhere do we come close to 50% – the wealthiest Canadian from my province, if his tax lawyers were incompetent, would still pay no more than 39% tax. Googling it quick… Stats Canada reports an average of 20.5% Canada-wide for 2005. I can’t find the equivalent stat for the U.S. offhand, but I don’t imagine it’s nearly as different (especially once you figure in health insurance!) as your friends think.
Perhaps they meant 50% of gov’t revenues; also false. Correct figure is in the low twenties there too. Can’t find an official/current source in a quick search, but you might send them to the relevant section of this article – neither the US nor Canada has, I believe, changed the percentage they put towards health care by a very large amount since Dec. 2005 when that was written.
Eric Finley — thanks, helpul facts.
tom — ditto.
Jennifer — you’re right; Moore doesn’t tackle the transition; he just provides the rationale for having one. These are tough issues.
mrobinsong — the post doesn’t claim everyone has a plan, and the point wasn’t to talk about their details; just the opposite. The NYT article summarizes some of the differences, but isn’t comprehensive.
And again, I wasn’t trying to turn this post into an argument for which candidate has the best plan — it’s not about the candidate, it’s about how we think about the problem. That Kucinich and Edwards may be ahead of the curve in different ways is a valid point, but not the point of this post. There will be others.
If I’m not EPU’d here, I highly suggest this review of SiCKO being screened in conservative semi-rural Texas, which I posted on on the 4th:
http://tinyurl.com/3xoo2l
Test comment- checking link
Show it anywhere American manufacturing jobs are disappearing because the companies can’t compete with the global workforce. A workforce which is increasingly playing on a tilted playing ground. Tilted by single-payer health plans offered by overseas locations etc.
Ford and General Motors execs readily admit their cost of health care is killing them in the global marketplace.
A Single-Payer plan will help to save the American Auto manufacturers, as well as many other manufacturing jobs.
We are going to have to do it eventually, or else send every job somewhere else, and those jobs that can’t be sent away, import some “guest worker” to do it at slave wages.
And that leaves the working American….
Where exactly?
HR-676
Dennis Kucinich
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
WORD
Scarecrow @ 34
I’m Canadian, with Bipolar Disorder, and mental health services are *definitely* covered under Canadian public health insurance plans. Medical psychiatry and hospitals are 100% covered, as far as I know. Counselling and psychologist/social-worker support services of various kinds are sometimes covered if an MD has referred you to them.
Counselling services do not all fall into the public system however (you do have to respect resource limitations at some point). There is a whole class of services that are not covered under public health insurance, including a lot of routine dental procedures, routine optometry, counselling, massage therapy (unless an MD refers you), accupuncture (unless an MD is doing it, which happens more and more), chiropracty, etc.
This is the domain where private insurers in Canada come in – i.e. they are only allowed to play in the “supplemental” health services field. Most Canadian access these services through job-based group-benefits packages, although you *can* buy private insurance for them on your own (I know no-one who does).
There is no tie between service providers and insurance companies. So long as the provider is a registered professional with a license or certification number, your insurer will reimburse you the stated amount. This seems to work very, very smoothly. I have never experienced any of the nonsense that Americans describe with their own private insurers here, and I am quite certain that if an insurer was giving us grief where I worked, our staff association/union and our employer would get together to immediately issue an RFP for an insurer who wasn’t going to jerk us around.
We do not carry debts in our system, and we pay into these policies so we expect service.
Our private insurance companies have to be farmers, not hunters, because they can’t make profits by jerking us around (we have to much freedom to flip them off and go get somebody better, because our core healthcare is never at risk). Their only way to grow economically is to attract more policy holders by offering better, cheaper benefits packages, and to be more internally efficient. If they gouge us, we just dump them. It’s a huge focus of unions and employee associations up here.
Yes, we all agree “universal health care” is a good thing and we all want it. But how do we get members of the House and Senate to support these bills when often they count on money from the extremely powerful lobbies of the AMA, insurance and pharmaceutical industries to remain in office?
“INSURANCE” is not a part of HEALTH CARE, which is a PATIENT and MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS (doctors, nurses, etc.)
Why in the F won’t stupid Americans see this very simple fact?
In the US the medical sector of our economy is one of the largest employers. A large percentage would be considered paper pushers and not practioners. A very large problem with all of these discussions is how to transfer to a new system without amazingly bad economic upheaval. Its already bad enough with all the factories going to china.
tmvernon –
You vote anyone — ANYONE — out who votes with the insurance companies. Yes, it must be your top priority.
There will be many who vote correctly on health care AND the endless wars. And if there aren’t, vote all the bastids out.
Everyone else? Gone. As in G-O-N-E. There is no time for pussy-footing around any longer.
thelightningwill –
What did we do when the automobile was invented? Feel sorry for horseshoers and forget the car?
Jesus Christ, folks. The insurance folks have known about this for decades. They have had plenty of time to switch careers. Besides, “insurance” isn’t like it is an ultra-specialized field. No one felt sorry for all the tech workers who were laid off almost a decade ago. Why all the anguish for health insurance crooks? Because they are stupid enough that most Americans know one?
Besides the various lobbies with interests in maintaining the staus quo, there are the NEOCONS to deal with who equate universal health care as one more step toward socialism. And we know how they feel about Communists. Here’s a review of Sicko by “a ministry dedicated to redeeming the values of the mass media according to biblical principles.” Click on
movieguide
Where did the “your comment is awaiting moderation” come from?
tmvernon @ 181
A word in your comment tripped the moderation filters and was released by a moderator.
Refresh your browser and it should be visible in the thread.
I like to share my “anecdotal experience” of living in Sweden (home of ancestors) for year to give my take on single payer. I was admitted to Sweden on a 364 day visa which is the free stay you get without a work permit. It was a study abroad year and I was advised to investigate private health insurance for my wife and I during that time. When I started asking people in Sweden where my wife and I could buy “health insurance” or “medical insurance”, we were met by blank and puzzled looks. Even after we explained what we were talking about no body had a clue about what this product was or where we could purchase it. It was like trying to ask people to explain how Social Security really works.
Months went by and we got no answers. Fortunately, we had no medical meeds for the time until the Spring after we arrived, my wife had a problem which was serious enough to require medical attention. We had no idea what to do wo we went to one of the many clinics in Stockholm and my wife was examined and treated by a doctor. We asked about payment and they didn’t have an idea about how it was done. We never heard about it again.
That is how a single payer system works.
Michael Moore is our modern Thomas Paine. Moore, like Paine, strikes a nerve and begins the conversation. Both men got the ball rolling and leave it to others in a more knowledgeable position to get the details right