Let me say straight out. Punishing Bush’s commutation of Libby’s sentence with censure would be like punishing Libby’s obstruction of justice with just 400 hours of community service. It would simply reinforce the notion that Bush’s Administration is above the law. It would be a punishment wholly unfit for the crime that has been committed: Obstruction of Justice. Bush’s obstruction of justice piled up on top of Libby’s obstruction of justice, all to prevent the American justice system from holding this Administration accountable for its actions.
I love Swopa. But I am astounded that he misses this fact: in a post arguing against getting lost in the minutiae, he presents the issue as one of Bush “coddling criminals,” and not as one of Bush using his pardon power to hide his own (and Cheney’s) involvement in a crime. It was not Libby who came up with the idea of leaking Valerie Wilson’s identity to Judy Miller, it was Cheney, and he did so with the authorization of Bush.
This is not a mistake Wexler makes. Indeed, his resolution defines in clear terms what Bush’s commutation amounts to:
[Bush's] decision to reward the perjury of Mr. Libby … effectively protected President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and other Administration officials from further scrutiny.
Given that Wexler has such a clear understanding of the issue here, it is unfortunate that he stops at censure. Sure, it’d make for bad press for the President. On Tuesday. But by Thursday, Bush could rest easy that he had ended all scrutiny into his actions, once and for all. Censure would amount to a closing off of inquiry; it would provide a way for the Republicans to defeat any effort to get the grand jury materials that Fitzgerald and his team spent so much effort putting together. It would end this thing, at precisely the moment when the country is finally beginning to understand the magnitude of what Bush and Cheney did.
In fact, our forefathers gave us clear instructions what to do at a time like this, when a President uses his pardon authority to cover up his own crimes.
In the same convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to “pardon crimes which were advised by himself” or, before indictment or conviction, “to stop inquiry and prevent detection.”
James Madison responded: [I]f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty..
It doesn’t take minutiae to prove that Bush has “sheltered” someone whose crime was “advised by himself.” It takes Libby’s notes and grand jury testimony.
The punishment for the abuse of the pardon power is clear: impeachment. Just as the punishment for Libby’s obstruction was clearly 30 months. If we’re going to complain about the commutation itself, we have no business letting Bush off with nothing more than censure.



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First
DickCO!
EW!
zed
Begin impeachment hearings on Cheney. Censure is like a ‘time out’ for the GOP.
Good morning ew.
leisureguy!
But seriously . . . emptywheel, does censure preclude impeachment? I get that it’s a half-assed wrist-slap at best, but is it a start or a finish to dismantling BushCo?
EW, there has been mention of Pat Fitz giving over GJ info to the Congress. Under what conditions is this possible?
Yasoo(hello) EW from Crete…. totally agree…
Democrats: What I want you to do is uphold the law.
bg @ 9
I think Judiciary has to subpoena him. Hey Congress!
bg — See LHP’s post on that here. She lays out all the potential for that and what regs have to be followed in order for grand jury secrecy rules to be obeyed and for the material to be lawfully disclosed under the parameters allowable.
barbara @ 8
If you could convince me it would serve as a first step, I might support it. But it will make it incredibly easy for Republicans to say, “we’ve already punished Bush for that, why subpoena Fitzgerald for the evidence to find out what really went on?”
In other words–yes, almost assuredly, it would close off impeachment–or even just further investigation. After all, even if we don’t impeach, this case is one thing where we already have evidence, BushCo can’t invoke executive privilege, because they’ve already provided this stuff. At the very least, you hold off on censure until we’ve used this case to get Addington and Jenny Mayfield on the stand.
Marcy! What’s your take on what the tall man in the rumpled suit has been saying this week? Do you think there might be another resignation in the works? Oh, and btw, my new boss is rewriting all of the regulations that were issued during the Clinton Administration. All of them.
George Washington’s first inaugural address talks how GW is the servant of the people who called him to serve his country. This George knew life under a king and our current George is behaving like a king and WE are the servants.
Our first George wanted his boss the people of America to know that he was humble and knew he served at their pleasure. Our elected officals serve at our pleasure no matter what party or office, somehow we need to remind them of that.
On your mark…get set……
Forget the Leadership. Convince the Judiciary Committee!!!
TiredFed @ 15
I have no idea. I doubt he’d resign. He loves his job too much–there’s still too much crookedness in Chicago to take out.
Plus, he might have a card or two in his backpocket. I’m not sure if he’d be willing to play them, as this thing gets escalated. But he probably has a few.
emptywheel_A personal thanks from me for distilling the complexities of this whole mess. While standing across the street from Independence Hall Wednesday displaying an impeachment sign and engaging people in conversation, I was able to lay it all in very clear terms.
I flipped one guy who started out about the Clinton sex crimes, then listened intently, and had nothing to say to counter the facts laid out in front of him. I would’ve never been able to do this about this case had it not been from reading your work, and the work of the other fine writers here at FDL.
If, as Mr. Madison says, Congress can impeach a president who issues a pardon to “shelter himself,” I fail to understand why Congress hasn’t already opened an investigation into the Libby commutation. If, as the Republican noise machine claims, there was no crime there, an investigation will determine that and remove the cloud hanging over the President and Vice President — and isn’t that what the right wing wants? If I were the Democrats, I’d kick off the investigation by shouting that from the rooftops.
The timidity of my party is almost overwhelming. The Democrats should be all over this dirty, filthy Libby business.
dalloway @ 20
Well, that’s what Wednesday’s hearing is all about. But if you introduce a censure resolution on Tuesday, then how effective is an inquiry into it going to be on Wednesday?
good morning all,
thanks EW.
KO had the money quote from archibald cox after nixon gave him the heave-ho. i can almost quote if from memory:
it’s that simple.
Apologies if this has already been discussed but what were the safeguards put in place for pardons after Clinton left office? I need some facts for when I run into local “Clinton did it too” wingnuts.
Without law, we have nothing.
dalloway @ 20
I believe they have. Selise would know, but I think there is a hearing next week on the issue.
Exactly the right language, ew. This was a reward for Scooter’s protection of Dick & George. An open debate about impeachment is the best way to get the issues before the public.
I don’t disagree with you, Bush definitely deserves it. But energy is a finite resource, and I wonder if this is the best place to put it. I realize it’s possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, but right now Bush is basically trying to string out the war so he can hand it off to somebody else. I feel like from a pragmatic point of view, if we start the all-consuming process of impeachment, the war (and all those who are suffering because of it) will just have to wait for a solution.
On the other hand, I agree with those who say it’s our duty to hold this kind of greed, corruption and barbarism to account. I just have to ask if this is the right time, because I’m certainly not going to forget. If it takes 2, 5, 10 years or more, I’ll still be screaming for justice.
emptywheel @ 19
I have to hope he takes those cards to Senator Leahy and asks for a job. (and hires a few former USAs like David Iglesias.)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 13
Were those rules followed during the Clinton impeachment, when the repub congress released to the internet grand jury testimony that was actually pornographic? IIRC it was published instantly, before it had even been read by the committee.
I totally agree with empywheel. Censure is a waste of time here. It will just feed the Repugs with the idea that Democrats are a. weak and b. wasting time on resolutions that Bush can ignore.
If there has been obstruction of justice, and we all agree that it looks pretty convincing, then the Department of Justice needs to investigate. Unfortunately, Gonzo is in charge and has not lifted a finger for anything to do with the WH. So, the first step is to impeach Gonzo.
I would add that just the evidence that would come up in that hearing would likely be very incriminating for the WH.
tommy yum @ 23
Amen.
emptywheel @ 22
Yep, I know about the hearing, EW. But from everything I read, the subject seems to be “the president’s power to pardon,” not the specific circumstances of the Libby commutation. That makes it sound like Congress will only investigate the broader issue of whether Bush had the power to commute Libby’s sentence. Anybody know what witnesses might be called? I guess that would clarify things…
spurious at 30 — No, they were not — which is one of the big reasons that i hold Barbara Comstock and Dan Burton and their ilk in such contempt. And I certainly hope you are not suggesting that Fitzgerald break the law because that would be wrong. Period.
it’s a passionate post marcy and a great read
notice however my bold;
that word “can” is the killer
now if I remember right, this quote continues and congress can ignore the commutation
I need to do some research
Emptywheel….saw you on Democracy Now. You were the best of the best. Hope in the future you will have many more opportunities to speak on a national forum. You have a gift for it.
Right now it’s (Rove) all about stalling for time. And the revision, along with the library can come later.
Jane Hamsher @ 28
It’s my personal opinion that this accomplishes both objectives.
The public response to the commutation has been very curious. I mean, with even the WaPo looking askance at it–not only was no one happy, but there is this mass moment of perplexment (is that a word?). So few people know what to make of this that it gives us an opportunity to explain it in simple terms.
In other words, Bush has given us a moment where we can do tremendous work to short circuit the mighty wurlitzer–even the mighty wurlitzer is perplexed. If we use it–and use it correctly–then we can completely disempower Bush.
Jane Hamsher @ 28
Jane, your point about “all-consuming process of impeachment” works in our favor, I think. Folks in the Admin will be running around like headless chickens (I can just see the email trails now) and will be too busy to get us into any more trouble. They may even be too busy to notice when Congress deauthorizes and then de-funds the occupation of Iraq. And to continue to pursue these banditos after Jan 2009 would be unprecedented (and IMO unlikely). The time is now. We aren’t going to get a do-over. (Hope you are feeling fine today.)
Jane Hamsher @ 28
But in 2, 5, or 10 years impeachment will no longer be an option. I believe our national self-respect requires that we impeach the b*stards now.
I think to ignore the Constitution and NOT impeach, is to violate the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution laid out the remedy for what Bush and his criminal cabal have done and will continue to do. To take the remedy “off the table” to rectify the criminal conduct of Bush et al is to violate the oaths of office of the Repreaentatives. Not to do the right thing is always wrong and will have consequences.
Some of us cling tight to the idea of justice.
Censure? Impeachment? Why not both?
Start with censure. Keep the investigations up full tilt. Hit the RNC with subpoenas for the WH’s emails, threaten them with contempt if they stonewall. Pull up as much concrete information as possible on the WH’s misinformation campaign on Iraq. Based on that information, then start impeachment.
Because you *know* that to successfully impeach these pigf*ckers, you’re going to need certified & notarized videotape footage of them screwing pigs on the White House lawn.
Well, censure is not nothing. Doesn’t look too good on one’s
resumelegacy. Not to mention, it will certainly fatten the albatross to be hung around the necks of those who oppose.But if I understand this correctly, and it’s merely a motion in the House to be voted on without having fact-finding hearings first, then count me out. For now.
I wonder how much time is being set aside for debate. Could Nancy bring it up, have the debate, then table the vote for a while?
THANKS EW!
While it does not surprise me to see the likes of Pelosi and Reid wring their hands, squirming and weaseling about impeachment, it DOES shock me to read the likes of Digby and Swopa fretting about it.
Bush, Cheney, Rove, Gonzales, and all their little hench-people have shown repeatedly that they have no respect for the law. None. It is Congress’ DUTY to impeach. Right now. No more waffling and groveling and apologizing.
And for all those who whine about not having the votes in the Senate to convict — last I checked, that’s what trials are FOR, to present evidence. Under impeachment, the executive branch CANNOT withhold documents. All the evidence would have to be presented. In the face of the evidence, the public will not tolerate the malfeasance that permeates this administration. And in the face of widespread public disapproval, Republican resistance will melt away, just as it did 30 years ago.
Excellent post!
OT
Talk about sickos… do you listen
to the garbage spewing from Ron Christy and
Rifkin’s mouths on Tweety’s show…
I was not impressed with Wilson’s lawyer…
they should hire Marcy…
jane,
i read you loud and clear, but aren’t we really worried that, because of the clinton impeachment and related bullshit in the 90s, the republicans effectively soured people on the idea, even if warranted?
you (correctly, imo) wanted the dems to go to the mat on alito; is this no less a do-or-die situation?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 34
I completely agree. And I doubt that Fitz could be made to break the law under any circumstances. I was just suggesting a possible response to the inevitable repub talking points.
Didn’t I read somewhere on the toobz yesterday that censure is the start and the first step?
emptywheel @ 14
Why can’t hearings on a motion to censure be used to extract the information you want; there’s nothing in concrete here that prevents the motion from evolving into more. The issue is how do you get support for the “the next step,” whatever that is.
I guess I have to agree with Jane on impeachment as well. I don’t like the idea that the war and anything else ChimpCO has done that’s costing lives (Katrina probably still, FDA deregulation and all kinds of deregulation, etc.) and needs attention, may be put on the back burner.
alibe @ 41
Amen.
Hell yeah! This is a great call to arms. The Founders fought so hard to include impeachment in our system of government for this exact scenario we are in! We’ve been hearing “there’s not enough time” and “waste of energy” arguments for far too long.
Look at all the info we’ve gotten from the Congressional hearings already. Imagine if some of those were impeachment hearings, and how much more info we’d have with all the rats turning on themselves to save their asses. You gotta tighten the screws! I would argue that there would be enough revealed by now that we’d get at least DeadEye, and we wouldn’t have to hear talk about, “Well, what if we lose? It’ll be portrayed as a Dem witchhunt.” Didn’t seem to hurt the Repubs after the Clinton fiasco.
I see there might be some debate about this issue even within the esteemed leadership of the Lake, but please everyone, get everyone you know to check out FDL and similar places. This is how we’re gonna restore the Constitution. Thanks for this post!
I feel like the Censure resolution is a lazy way to benchmark the level of support Impeachment would have. I believe it will muddy the waters. Did the Repubs have a censure resolution on Clinton prior to Impeachment?
spurious @ 40
Keep the eyes on the “prize”, Win the Presidential election and thus re-gain the machinery of government and increase House and Senate majorities. If that happens then all things become possible. I want to see US v Bush, US v Cheney and on and on, for war crimes. It is possible.
I don’t disagree with EW, but I will settle for some sign of life in the Democratic party.
Jane Hamsher @ 28
I tend to believe that impeachment is the most pragmatic route, both in the near and long term.
In the near term, the power of impeachment can function to strip away the executive privilege protection and expose the breathtaking scale and scope of the Bush administration’s wrongdoing. We’ve seen a lot, but all of the evidence thus far indicates that there is much, much more out there. Impeachment will get us much more evidence than we can otherwise gather using Congressional hearings alone.
Apart from whether the impeachment will be ’successful’ in the final Senate vote, it will have served a critical role of piercing the heart of the administration’s secrecy. That alone makes impeachment worthwhile.
So we use impeachment to focus in on the nexus of events leading up to the commutation. That brings in the lies that brought us to war and the lies that were told by Libby and others to cover up those lies. People understand wars and they understand lies. People hate this war and they want to see Bush challenged on any aspect of it. In the short term, impeachment lets people see Democrats standing up to Bush and exposing his lies and wrongdoing – which is a political winner. In the long term, impeachment helps begin the process of restoring our constitutional system of checks and balances by reasserting Congressional power.
Up until now, the “unitary executive” theory (among other power grabs) has allowed Bush to push around Congres and pervert the historical Constitutional dynamic of legislative and executive. He brought the gun to what had always been a knife fight. Impeachment is Congress’s ‘gun’ – it is the only effective countermeasure to Bush and one that the framers intended to be used in circumstances like this – and if Congress doesn’t use it they are doomed.
Does Barnum & Bailey work for the White House?
Where the fuck do they get these clowns..
i.e. Asst to Snow job: Scott Stenzel…
Do they have any shame?
The Congressional Dems are scared shitless of the polls. If they’re branded as the do-nothing, endless investigations Party, they think the public will vote them out of the majority in ‘08. This clearly confuses the Dem leadership on how to proceed. I think they want to impeach-but it’s not a, ahem, slam-dunk.
I’m not sure what to make of all this. I think censure is viable, impeachment less so. Remember that impeachment is a political, not legal, procedure. And with Clinton, the Repubs cheapened its value immeasurably-Clinton’s crime merited censure, but not impeachment.
Ironically, Bush’s crime(s) clearly merits impeachment, not censure. But thanks to Newt’s Congress, history is now fucking with us.
And I refer to every Tula Connell post for the Upton Sinclairish nightmare we are now being plunged into.
spurious @ 40
I want him in jail. Him and all the crooks in his administration.
I think censure would be devastatingly effective. I believe that it along with $3.50-$5.00 would get you a cup of coffee. It’s that good because we all know how this Administrtion reacts to words without solid, real world consequences.
Democrats. We are not playing marbles here.
Jail? Yes!
So if I understand this correctly (always a dangerous assumption on my part), censure is a consummation devoutly to be wish’d on the part of the Bushies (vs. impeachment). Does this suggest that Repugnants will be working behind the scenes somehow to allow/encourage censure to move forward? Even to the point of voting against tabling it as suggested above? Crikey, I hate being everlastingly one-upped by those obstructionists!
Complain about Libby and all they’ll do is scream MARK RICH!!!! at you.
EW “It would simply reinforce the notion that Bush’s Administration is above the law.”
The Bush administration is above the law….it is more than a “notion” it is a fact!
NO ONE NO ONE should wonder why so many people have a deep disrespect for the Bush administration and for our justice system.
We have a shell of a country, hollow, unfair, pathetic and immoral.
TiredFed @ 39
I think the Clinton impeachment is a very good example of government coming to a grinding halt while we all watch. I’m arguing that this is not the right time for that to happen, something has to be done, and that something is end the war. It’s not going to happen with one vote or two votes, it’s going to have to be an ongoing process that takes a lot of committment and resolve from a lot of people who aren’t very good at working together.
Jane Hamsher @ 61
First I’d like to see all them squirming before a jury of their peers.
The remedy is impeachment…
Will we be disappointed with next week hearings?
Based on past experience… perhaps yes
I think Senator Leahy should be the guy
to propose impeachment…
sorry for OT: Washington Talk Radio Station Drops Bill O’Reilly
emptywheel @ 38
Does impeaching Abu accomplish the same thing, without bringing government to a grinding halt?
alibe @ 41
I totally agree. It would be like the insidious phrase “past practice” inserted into every collective bargaining agreement I’ve ever seen which is used to beat people down with or nullify provisions of the contract in the future.
If we don’t use it for these egregious violations of our constitution by this faux patriotic bunch, of what future use will it be?
kiddo wants justice.
I know we should impeach NOW.. The only reason this has drawn out this long is because of the 4th of July recess,,,
I am hopeful that we get some Judiciary Committee action of this next week, and the investigation gets started. This whole process will grows some serious legs if/when two things happen, one is the connection of Libby’s perjury/obstruction charge to the false war justifications and the other is the inevitable dismal Iraq situation report due out in September..
I remember watching the corrupt Nixon administration self-imploding.. I’m getting the same smell now… “I Love the smell of napalm in the morning.. it smell like… Victory” Col. Kilgore in Apocolypse Now..
This stench of napalm is coming from Karl Rove’s office..
Congress is not going to impeach this President right now, no matter how good an idea it is, or how right it is, or for any other reason.
But I do not see a downside with impeachment of Gonzo. If it’s true that the public doesn’t care, why would they care if he was impeached? He’s unpopular with the Republicans too. He clearly broke the law, if by nothing else, lying to Congress. And the most important reason is that, he is the roadblock stopping all investigations into the WH. He refuses to answer subpeonas, he refuses to answer letters calling for investigations, etc.
DickCo. I am going back to the outing of a CIA identity is the perfect crime for them. A seed of secrecy inside a seed inside a seed.
If the Democrats are afraid that the American public will view impeachment and investigation of the Bush administration as nothing more than partisan “endless investigations”, then they are fools. That is exactly what the Bush administration wants us to believe, and it is exactly wrong.
Americans know what’s up. That’s why Bush is at 30%.
Whenever there is a hearing, Americans see more wrongdoing, whether it is Goodling, Gonzalez, Sampson, or Doan. Do Democrats really think that people are watching the hearings and saying “I really wish the Democrats would just leave all that alone”? The point of hearings and investigations is that by their very nature the focus is primarily on the purported wrongdoer, not the investigator. And if there is real wrongdoing (and with the Bush administration, there is never any question), then Americans will respond to the wrongdoing – they will not react negatively to the person exposing it.
David Ehrenstein @ 66
I thought they did a pretty good job of distinguishing between the two administrations on KO in terms of pardons. Clinton was generous with pardons. Bush is not. Clinton waited until someone served their jail sentence (re: poor Susan McDougal.) Bush did not.
They also pointed out that Scooter Libby was Rich’s lawyer. Hehehe.
Pat Buchanan:
Censure is saying that the President is breaking the law, but we’re not going to do anything about it. Is that a message for the President, because he’s not listening. It says as much about Congress as it does about anything else.
David Ehrenstein @ 65
Those were the first words out of Sen. Roberts’(R-KS)staff’s mouth when I callled this morning to see if he had a stance on the commutation of the sentence…that and well the felony charge stills stands. She hung up on me when she couldn’t respond to my arguments that debunk those talking points. Talk about cowards!
OT, but does anybody know what’s going to be in the Friday Doc Dump?
*xyz @ 56
I agree completely with this. Impeachment. If not now, when? If not with this President, then who?
It’s not about winning or losing. It’s about exposing the truth, not sweeping it under the rug again.
Jane Hamsher @ 61
and I want US to get restitution, as well.
Tony Snow: “Censure? Knock yourself out.”
Jane Hamsher @ 60
yes! Yes! YES!! And not Club Fed either, althoug in a pinch I would even go for that. But Bush, Cheney, and many others deserve to be tried for WAR CRIMES in an international court. For the children.
I think I’m a desperate man.
I recommend that Fitzy resign and break
the law and turn over ALL documents re: the
treason affair
Didn’t Daniel Ellsberg and others go to jail?
Sorry, I think I’m flipping out…
but ain’t we at the end of our patience…
GeorgeSimian @ 80
That’s my take, too. It seems to say, “We’re afraid to take on impeachment.” Are we?
mc @ 59
I wonder if we are not getting to some point where the dems cannot afford NOT to act; polls are down and I believe only solid action on Bush and Iraq will bring the polls up for the dems. Playing it safe is only going to tank their numbers further. And what if funds and grassroots volunteerism starts to dry up?
emptywheel @ 14
If you’re going to base your actions on whether Republicans complain, you might as well pack it in on impeachment anyway.
Barbara’s point is correct — these are not mutually exclusive steps, and as I note in my post, censure hearings can provide a useful forum for laying out a case for impeachment.
Jane Hamsher @ 61
Jane, I completely agree. But can we afford to wait? The rest of the world has watched the last 6 years unfold in disbelief. If these thugs are allowed to continue their activities unchallenged till the end of Bush’s term, in a sense we all will be seen to have been complicit.
perris @ 35
here ya go;
notice;
congress can suspend the president and vice president even before an impeachment
The current situation is the result of 40 years of work by the Republicans..there is no “magic that will un-do the damage. Take names and have long memories. For the next 18 months it is going to be holding actions, trying to limit further damage. To me, the first and perhaps only goal is to prevent the Iranian war. If Cheney/Bush attack Iran, this country is going over the cliff.
Gromit @ 86
Sounds a lot like “Bring ‘em on” doesn’t it?
We all know what happened after that remark.
I want these Bush people to for once, be forced to take responsibilty for what the have done.
David Ehrenstein @ 66
The correct analog to Libby is not Marc Rich. It’s Howard Hunt and Gordon Liddy. It’s the Watergate burglars. Libby, in fact, is very much playing the Liddy role.
If they scream MARK RICH!!! at you, calmly
reply, “Exactly. And you impeached Clinton, didn’t you?”
Or scream G GORDAN LIDDY back at them. Or both.
Good Morning Everyone. Boy! Full house today ;->
EW: ThankyouThankyouThankyou!
-um- and cheeeeeney please?
I think the Clinton impeachment is a very good example of government coming to a grinding halt while we all watch. I’m arguing that this is not the right time for that to happen, something has to be done, and that something is end the war.
Tough call. Getting out of Iraq – yes we must. But if impeachment takes the air out of an administration bent on starting a *new* war (Iran), then I’m all for it, and damned quickly, please.
james @ 73
This is my feeling exactly.
OK. So who will be our John Dean? Who will be our Lowell Weicker? I see even Chuck Hagel running and ducking for cover if impeachment comes on the table.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 80
Holy flying shit!
On a slight tangent – does anyone besides me think that Fitzgerald may be holding back on closing the investigation so that he can bring the hammer down AFTER we get someone in office who respects the rule of law?
I mean, why waste time now, when we know the “Get out of jail free” cards will be handed out if anyone’s convicted?
And on topic – hey, ya never know – with the DC Madame’s phone records coming out, if somebody got a blow job, we just might get an impeachment after all! Maybe the censure vote is to float up a balloon and see which way the wind’s blowing?
GeorgeSimian @ 76
This may be the way to go. Gonzo seems to be the easiest target and would provide info that would make moving on Cheney much easier. When Cheney is impeached, Bush folds.
fdl reader @ 101
Republikans can make a good case that Pat Buchanan is just jealous he lost the party.
spurious @ 92
When my Russian friends ask me why, if Americans disapprove of Bush so much, we don’t just vote for someone else, all I have to do is say our electoral system lately has become like the Brezhnev election system and they understand.
And then they say incredulously, “But this is America!”
Yes, this is what America has become.
perris @ 92
But this is Madison’s opinion, right? Not law.
jayt @ 98
I don’t agree, but I do think that this will be the big talking point if impeachment ever does get back on the table. The Repug screaming machine will be OUTRAGED that the Democrats would impeach a President in the middle of a war.
Of course, they don’t care that he cut taxes in the middle of a war, or that he didn’t have a plan, but they are Republicans.
Jane and mui — I fail to see how not pursuing impeachment will end the war sooner. Last I checked there are still not enough votes in Congress to override a veto of any bill ending the war. The surest and fastest way to bring this debacle to a close is to remove Bush and Cheney from office.
Impeachment will put all the evidence of wrongdoing by this administration on Page 1 of every paper in the country. Once the facts are widely known, the Senate votes for impeachment will mount as the public demands a conviction.
Impeachment is imperative. We cannot allow the precedent set by this administration to stand. 2, 5, or 10 years from now will be too late. We will have kissed our Constitution good-bye well before then.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 95
After 01/20/09, and we have a real AJ, then indict with 18 USC 2441; US v Bush and see if their escape punishment card works.
Swopa @ 91
The problem, I believe, is that fence-sitting Democrats will use censure as an alternative to impeachment. Once censure happens, they can sit back and say – see, I gave all those MoveOn people exactly what they asked for.
In negotiation, you don’t start with small requests and then build up to bigger ones. You ask for more than what you really want, so the other side has to negotiate you down. In this case, if we don’t demand impeachment at the outset, then most of our momentum may actually be lost after the censure vote occurs.
And by itself, censure is not too useful. Bush won’t care, and censure doesn’t give us the enhanced investigative powers that impeachment would give us.
See, I view impeachment as a self-strengthening mechanism. The powers of investigation that it yields will surely dredge up tons of wrongdoing and expose it to the American people in prime time. This will add to the momentum for further investigation and for further decrease in Bush’s approval. And so on, and so forth.
Janda @ 82
That’s really interesting. Republikans are probably hoping that Rich will be some kind of mantra whereby if they say it they can magically get the public to shut up. What a bunch of good Stalinists!
Aw hell, did I get stuck in the filters again? All I said was “bl**j*b”
Gromit @ 102
What’s the downside?
jayt @ 98
I think we are able to multi-task
In re Judiciary Comm. hearings, I’m hoping those in the know here will send committee members copies of the wonderful questions FDLers have been offering lately.
I’m awed by the huge braintrust that has gathered at the Lake. Bravo all! and Thankyou!
Byron York was on the Diane Rehm show this morning. His persistent efforts to undermine the seriousness of the Plame investigation are absolutely astounding. Why is it that he and many other “conservative” (choke) Republicans found it critically important to investigate lies under oath about an extra marital affair and do not find investigating the outing of a covert agent critically important?
I just do not get it…for these folks blow jo*s are more important than U.S. National Security. Fascinating and deeply disturbing!
The hypocrisy and contradictions are outrageous and immoral!
Edited by MOD *
Steve @ 93
Could not agree more…
They have their eye on the prize.. at it is Iran.
The Iraq war is simply a very profitable (for Cheney and company) distraction…
The Saturday Night Massacre was the beginning of the end for Nixon because the culture had already gone through the mystery story of the Watergate cover-up in the summer hearings, and the Massacre was the culprit’s implicit confession.
Plame was (and the craven MSM is to blame) deliberately tamped down and dumbed down, so the real stakes–treason, and covering up treason at the highest level of government–were not in the forefront of public consciousness.
The Libby pardon-lite IS obstruction of an investigation into treason at the highest level of government.
FDL folks know it, Congress knows it, the Republicans know it, and Bush knows it.
The Republicans are willing to lie about it.
We need to press Congress to frame the narrative properly, arouse the public….and then action can be taken.
phred @ 107
I agree that you cannot predict the outcome of an impeachment hearing. The price of getting W into Congress to answer tough questions – remember Clinton getting asked about the cigar? – is worth it. If he were innocent, he would make Congress look bad, but I don’t think anybody here thinks that.
Impeach. And don’t impeach somebody in the Cabinet. Think big. Impeach Bush. Make Bush defend himself. Make Bush throw Cheney under the bus. Make Bush have to argue “it was Cheney, not me” to defend himself.
The only person in the impeachment process in Watergate was Nixon.
There’s a Constitutional method for dealing with this kind of lawlessness. It’s called impeachment. Use it.
I think that what the media says about the public’s reaction to all of this is quite different than the actual reaction by the public.
The people are angry with Congress precisely because it is not doing the will of the people – getting combat troops out of Iraq, developing healthcare access for everyone, taking the financial risk and burdens off individuals for healthcare costs, and getting rid of the stain and the secrecy of the Cheney administration.
If the Dems would just stick a toe in the water, for cryin out loud, and actually move toward doing what the people elected them to do, the public reactions should fire them up to keep going.
But I think that the real reason there is no action is that the money behind all of the congressional reps lies with big business – and Congressional inaction is a reflection of Congress doing the will of the corporations.
The fundamental question for me is how oppressed and angry will the people get before they react? And what form will that reaction take?
Consider that we are already spied upon, have no worker rights, can be jailed on a whim, and have lost almost all civil rights – that’s a pretty neutered populace – and its army is away and breaking….
GeorgeSimian @ 119
off topic but an important cut and save for conversations with the people that still believe there is some kind of liberal media;
think progress has some stations dropping right wing talk show for failure of listeners
in most cases these hosts do awful but they get national venue anyway
it’s a good save for us
Bay State Librul @ 113
You read my mind!!! I was just sitting here thinking, “Isn’t it time Congress learned to multi-task??”
I have a hard time getting on board with the “impeachment consumes too much time, energy, resources.”
True. But what’s at stake is monstrous huge. Saying, “You are bad boys!” and going about our business is not enough. Really.
Someone above said Congress (i.e., Dems in Congress) need to show their individual and collective spines. America needs nothing less than that and BushCo deserves nothing better.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 113
Okay, thanks, it’s there at #103 now.
The “impeachment will bring government to a grinding halt” argument overlooks that most of the Democratic program is already stymied by Senate filibusters and the threat of Presidential vetoes.
Republicans will have to decide how much longer they can afford to support Bush on the war. Some Republican Senators have expressed doubts but they are pretty fuzzy about what they are willing to vote for. They want the war to go away, that and any record of their slavish support of it for the last 4 and a half years.
barbara @ 107
clearly not law but congress can claim the ability never the less and then let the president challenge their authority
just as the president makes congress challenge his authority
that would be something fine to see
cleter @ 97
re libby and liddy: liddy had the cojones to GO TO JAIL!!! See — scooter’s really a wimp!
Another OT, sorry.
I just got here and kind of skimmed a couple of threads.
Did anyone else see the hatchet job Bobo Brooks did on Joe Wilson yesterday?
I was pissed half the night and am seriously considering a scathing LTE to my local rag and tear Bobo a new asshole.
BushCo does not CARE what Congress does.
How can we let them tell us there is no point?
First, I think we all want to impede or cease as soon as possible all criminal actions of the current Administration (and that’s a tall order). Second, we want some measure of accountability (and we will not be satisfied with elections alone). I firmly believe that if Congress does not move to impeachment proceedings, first for Gonzales, second for Cheney and third for Bush (in that order), they will not be abiding by their oath of office, to uphold the Constitution. Hearings leading up to impeachment will lay out the foundation; censure should not even be considered at this point, since it is only a possible outcome, not a process. I also firnly believe we can’t afford to wait until the next election to have that “accountability moment.” The world can’t afford to wait, for a number of reasons (Al Gore’s recent NYT piece, impending war with Iran, the continued occupation of Iraq). I put my trust in Senator Leahy now.
posaune @ 129
And came out with the tatoos to show it. Too bad Liddy is more psycho than ever.
Jane Hamsher @ 28
It’s now or never. 2 or 5 or 10 years from now it will all be forgotten, and we’ll be on to the next scandal.
I’ve heard some pundits saying that the Democratic Congress doesn’t have the will for impeachment now because they want to focus on the elections. That is NOT acceptable. They have other things they’d rather do than repair & restore the foundations of our nation? Find another job then, I say.
Whether it is impeachment or some other course of action, something must be done. Otherwise, we debase our system further and should be prepared for even worst abuses in the future.
Congress must act, and it is up to the people to insure they do. Now.
And on a related note, did anyone catch that strange burp on yesterday’s ABC evening network news? Anchor Charles Gibson began the outro to the first commercial break. A huge still image of Libby appeared behind him, with the headline “LIBBY FALLOUT”. He began to read the prompter “…and when we return, Scoot… …we will look at the … …heat wave hitting the west (or whatever). After the commercial break, he ran with a glowing story about how our government is protecting us from terrorists with screening at the airports.
Strange how those things happen, isn’t it?
[gotta run, have a good weekend all]
That is what the jury said.
They wondered where the “other people” were and why was Libby the only one indicted.
Fitzgerald would be a Hero of the ages if he pressed further into this investigation, Republicans, be damned!
Let Bush fire him.
The 23%’s need to see the slime behind the administration
TiredFed @ 132
What’s Leahy up to? Link?
The end game is obstruction of justice.
The key player is Fitzy…
that’s why he should resign and release
all GJ testimony and Bush’s and Cheney’s
testimony.
I know it is against the law…
but can’t we immunize him for the good of the
country.
Desperate times deserve desperate measures.
Steve @ 108
Presidential pardons trump. If Bush pardons everyone, they can’t be prosecuted (at least not under U.S. law). Except, of course, for impeachment.
emptywheel @ 38
That’s exactly what a censure does, though — makes the case quickly in simple, moral terms.
You may think impeachment will do that, but in fact it will change the conversation from what Libby was covering up to whether Democrats are overreacting. And people are going to make a gut decision on that based on what they think the first moment they hear about impeachment; no one around office water coolers and in bars is going to say, “I’ll make my mind up based on the evidence they present.”
If you haven’t convinced a solid majority of the public the Bush deserves impeachment before you start impeachment proceedings, impeachment is going to fail.
Diane @ 134
The 23% are the slime behind the administration.
You guys are light-years smarter than I, but I know something I CAN do, and that’s to act as an info. conduit.
I’m off to send links to the House Jud. Comm. members, so they have something worthwhile to read before their hearings on jr’s commutation scheme.
back later….
Bay State Librul @ 135
Probably a resume problem for the 2009 U.S. Attorney General.
mui @ 111
I stopped in Republican Senator Pat Roberts office several years ago to hand him a petition signed by several thousand people having to do with the completion of Phase II of the SSCI. Roberts is a sleazebag and a traitor!
cleter @ 121
Amen!
No censure. Censure takes the wind out of impeachment. It will make Congress bloated and full, and they’ll look at impeachment and say, “ooh…I can’t. I just ate a big ol’ censure.”
Go freakin’ nuclear. No more baby steps. Do something BOLD. What, oh wise Congressional leaders, was the downside to the impeachment move against Nixon? NOTHING! It removed the monster, AND Democrats cleaned up at the next election. There is NO DOWNSIDE TO IMPEACHING A CRIMINAL WITH A 27% JOB APPROVAL RATING. Bush is LESS popular than Nixon was when proceedings began against Nixon. What in the hell are you scared of? That Republicans won’t like you? Screw that. They ALREADY don’t like you. Make them FEAR you. Tie them to their shitty President, and then kick their shitty President in the b*lls. Repeatedly.
[Mod Note; metaphorically speaking, of course.]
I’d love love *love* to see Bush & Cheney impeached. What fun that would be! But more than anything, I want to see this war ended. I know the rest of the world wants to see us rise up against our evil overlords, but I’m pretty sure all of them would say that ending this monstrous, pointless war comes first. When I think of the devastation we have caused and the utter ruin of the lives of innocent Iraqi civilians, not to mention the terrible struggles that our wounded vets will suffer for the rest of their lives, I just weep. My blood pressure rises when I think of the Cheney/Libby scandal, but I don’t weep over it. I suppose it’s an emotional decision, but in the face of the complete chaos we have created in Iraq, and the decades of global anger and violent repercussion that it will engender, I have to think that my priority is seeing this war ended now. And I think Jane may really be right: if impeachment proceedings begin, can we effectively press the White House to end the war? The Republicans might circle the wagons that they are now abandoning (and even Pete Domenici has called for an end to the war), and then we’d get nowhere.
Bay State Librul @ 113
good point. from the Senate website on impeachment:
“Louderback’s Senate trial consumed nearly all of May 1933, during the New Deal’s Hundred Days, one of the busiest legislative periods in congressional history.”
the only ones who will be “busy” with impeachment are the ones under indictment.
TiredFed @ 137
Maybe maybe not..Isn’t there a post H2O-gate law saying presidential powers can’t be used to cover up crimes?
Swopa @ 139
Swopa – People will claim the Democrats are overreaching no matter what the circumstances of the impeachment are.
In fact, if censure comes first, then all of the talking heads will say that the Democrats are never satisfied. They got the president censured and now they want more? They are just playing partisan politics. And so forth.
Wouldn’t all the information that would come out of an impeachment proceeding speed up the end of the war?
Randi Rhodes knows Wexler from when she lived in FL. She is fond of him and I think has access to him.
What’s really aggravating for me is the thorough understanding that the Bush crowd is tampering with our children’s, children’s lives.
sofistic @ 150
Absolutely.
TiredFed @ 131
you’re persuasive
& don’t forget Sen Whitehouse’s help
barbara @ 142
oooh barbara, u give me goosebumps *blush*
What an incredible thot/plan.
Now, if we can just help this poor old country limp that far into the future…
Kathleen @ 142
cleter @ 119
no no no. Impeach Cheney first. We simply can’t have Cheney as President even for a moment.
phred @ 109
Just so we’re clear on one thing — there are not enough votes to impeach him. We’re talking about taking an action that cannot succeed. I understand the desire to do it on principle, but there is neither time nor ability to get both Bush and Cheney out of office in this manner.
Hugh @ 126
Isn’t government already at a grinding halt??
The Republicans are using obstructionist tactics when it comes to Democrats getting legislation passed, the oh-so-waited-for hearings in both houses of congress have been anticlimactic, to say the least, if not surreal what with the GOP members putting words in the mouth of witnesses and going off on tangents that would make a heroin addict’s mutterings seem germane to the topic.
If the Democrats don’t use impeachment they will be fulfilling what every right-wing pundit and advocate has been saying for years and they will be damaging their chances of remaining a viable party. They will not appear to be weak and indecisive, they will be weak and indecisive, as well as taking on the role of cowering in the corner while the big, bad wolf of fascism hammered on the door.
The Dems can only lose by not pursuing impeachment.
Swopa @ 139
I’m not sure this was true in Nixon’s case. Public support for impeachment grew over time, with many folks watching the Watergate hearing with fascination, and reading WaPo etc. Many weren’t sure what it all meant, but very gradually they came to understand that impeachment was necessary — it took a lot of process to get there.
The discussions of these topics sometimes leap from process to outcomes. Do we want impeachment? Of course. How do you build the support for that? I don’t equate a motion/process to consider censure as the same as a final vote on censure. The point is not to end with censure; it’s to use the process to end at impeachment. The hard question we face is what’s the best process, knowing the outcome we want. Is a censure motion/process, and attendant hearings, helpful in getting us there? Swopa says yes, emptywheel says, no, but she’s thinking about outcomes, and he’s thinking about process.
Bustednuckles @ 129
Yes, it was pretty disgusting. I remarked at the time that Wilson had stood up to and faced down Saddam Hussein in the First Gulf War to protect foreigners that Saddam was threatening to use as human shields. I noted that if Brooks were ever in a similar situation he would crap in his pants.
Brooks like Broder likes to think he understands the great unwashed masses, i.e. ordinary Americans but he hates the idea that these would substitute their judgment for his or that one of the Washington elite to which he proudly belongs should be treated, ugh, like those same ordinary Americans. In his world, it’s just not done, old boy. *sniff* *sniff*
Is there proof that Bush is connected in a suspicious manner to Libby’s case? If anyone were to be taken down by this, it seems like the VP, since the VP was directly involved. But the VP isn’t the one giving commutation, is he??
Also, wouldn’t this classify President Clinton’s pardon of Mark Rich to be an impeachable action due to the fact that Mark Rich had close ties to Clintons and the fundraising?
I’m not yet ready to plunge into impeachment hearings. As to censure…I can take it or leave it. Here’s what I want: really TOUGH hearings next week on the Libby matter. My suggestions:
1. subpoena Libby. Haul his sorry ass before Congress. Let him repeatedly take the 5th to many questions. Let America see this on TV. Treat him just like those old black/white films of those mafia crooks taking the 5th before Congress.
2. subpoena every single member of the WHIG. Haul Ms. Matalin down there. Let her repeatedly testify that she refuses to answer questions on grounds of executive privilege. Do it on national TV. Ask her (and the others) “do you have information that Libby lied to protect someone?” “I refuse to answer, blah, blah, blah.” Ask her if she has knowledge that the WH told lies. Let her refuse to answer…on national TV. Do this over and over and over.
Next: roll out the contempt charge. Don’t pussy-foot around. The chairman should have the charges already prepared. Take a vote, ON NATIONAL TV to find contempt.
Look, I know this is theatrical. But damn it, do it! Fight these SOB’s every inch of the way. Yes. it’s mean, it’s nasty, and it’s right down in the weeds. But that’s how you need to handle these animals. No mercy. No retreat.
Ghostman
Jane Hamsher @ 158
I think we are supposed to be the reality based community and THAT is the reality!
mui @ 134
Sara Taylor, next week. SJC Hearing
KagroX weighs in
Is the program still unconstitutional? Yes, but only in theory. Because the 6th Circuit says the ACLU didn’t prove it was directly injured by the violation, and therefore has no standing to bring the suit in the first place.
Sorry, everyone!
Hope some nice censure fixes your Constitution for you!
And remember, if the subpoenas don’t work, there’s always the courts, right?
Right?
from Kos
Last evening on Chris Matthews Hardball Joe Wilson stated that the justice system should be required to release the statements made to the special prosecutor by the President and Vice President about the Plame outing.
go to “Wilson slams Bush”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/
Thank You Thank you Joe Wilson, Valerie Plame and Fitz…you give me hope that justice and truth still stand a chance in this so called “democracy”
Okay . . . here’s the latest rumor from the mill.
Chaney will resign avoiding any possibility of Impeachment. Bush appoints Fred Thompson as VP making him the “chosen one.” As next in line Thompson has a huge leg up on the competition.
Bush pardons Libby on the way out the door. Bush heads off the the ranch. Game over.
Jane Hamsher @ 158
Absolutely right..most of our energy needs to be directed toward the ‘08 elections. AS Howie Klein said, if you want progressive candidates, now is the time for the money and hard work.
Scarecrow @ 160
I tend to think of “testifyin” as a group psychology thing. (One of things so interesting about those Oprah shows). But someone would have to really start the ball to get Chimpy’s folks to “testify” to their collective guilt. And who would do that? They are like the Stalinist bloc.
A theory. Part I: Dems in congress (e.g., Pelosi) don’t want to impeach not because they fear failure but because they fear success and what success would mean — namely, having to take responsibility for solving a whole bunch of very tough problems shrub either has created or has allowed to compound. Part II: Readers of FDL, Kos and the like are going to be seriously disappointed in, and let down by, the next president, regardless of whether he or she is a repub or a dem. Part III: Ralph Nader is right: There’s one monster, with two heads.
Swopa@138
If you haven’t convinced a solid majority of the public the Bush deserves impeachment before you start impeachment proceedings, impeachment is going to fail.
I respectfully and strongly disagree. This was not the case with Nixon. There were not enough votes to convict Nixon in the begining. Consensus built, it was not there at the begining. And Nixon started from a stronger place than Bush is now. Nixon had just won an undisputed landslide.
Impeachment is a process, a begining. It is not an event. A conviction is not something you have, it is something you make.
TiredFed @ 165
MMmm
Jane Hamsher @ 158
Ah, Jane, there you go confusing us with the facts again . . . (sigh)
Yes mom, but can’t we at least try? *pant pant*
cancer_cures @ 161
I’d like to see a link for that last statement other than the fact that Rich’s wife was a contributor to the Clinton campaign.
KestrelBrighteyes @ 103
Night before last at TheNextHarrah, Marcy expressed the opinion that Fitz has a case that Libby violated the Expionage Act:
Also, she seemed to fill in the last remaining gap in the IIPA case against Libby:
There are some nuances, and the further details are at http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c……html#more
At this point, why not give Scooter immunity? and then sit his lyin’ @$$ down in front of any one of several subcommittees and get the truth out of him.
For those of you that missed Gart Hart’s piece at HuffPo “And Our Posterity”, it’s well worth a read. Here’s the last paragraph:
“The Founders made the moral guidepost of intergenerational accountability equal to their immediate interests (”to ourselves and our posterity”) in creating the Union. Our government is not at liberty to disregard the consequences of its actions on our posterity. Indeed, if it takes seriously the full meaning of our Constitution’s preamble, it has no choice but to consider with utmost seriousness its duties, responsibilities, and obligations to those who shall inherit this great nation from us”.
For those of us with children and for those of us who honor our ancestors sacrifices, we owe a debt to posterity to set this right. If we sit by, each of us will bear some complicity with the events that occur after these deluded nutbags start bombing Natanz.
pssst…..DO Something!
I have always said we have to deal
there ARE republicans that will switch, it will be easy for them to do there are plenty of “watershed” moments for them to use as their excuse
we can guarantee uncontested re election bid, we can give pork, we can give seats on committees
this has to be done
we have to deal
Sachem @ 178
He’d probably take the fifth (ongoing legal stuff). Also he’s a good stalinist.
As to impeachment. I’m not going to ‘pile on’.
If impeachment is useless, then what is the point of any of this: jeez of the whole American experiment?
Are we succumbing to the ‘talking points?’ And whose talking points are these?
Pelosi says:
1) impeachment won’t succeed; and
2) we don’t know 1/10th of what is going on.
If so, we are lost.
james @ 157
how so? we are still spending billions we dont have. we still occupy Iraq. we are rattling sabers at Iran. Oil compnies are still gouging everyone (oops, that’s not really the Feds at work, we’re just enablers there). Congress can and will probably pass all 13 appropriations bills on time and fund FY 2008. there will be a big stink over Iraq in the FY 2008 Defense Authorization, but Defense will still get funded. And Bush cronies are rewriting govt regulations all over the place. seems to me we are still rolling along.
perris @ 179
Names, please and thank you.
Impeachment!!!
It is the only way to restore democracy and our integrity. I used this analogy yesterday about battered women. When a battered woman leaves a violent relationship she is at the highest risk of death or injury. That does not mean she should not leave. But it does require a very well thought out plan that understands the consequences fully.
There will be severe consequences for trying to impeach him. We know this from past behavior. We will not beat him into submission. The neo con crew will simply gather themselves together and come back with a new plan. How do we know?? Past experience. They will not slink away. We have to be ready for the long term solution. It will not be easy but again, should a woman just stay and get beaten and battered because to leave is too difficult and will disrupt her life financially and in about every way possible??
Tough question. But in my opinion this it the strength behind the GOP. They have fear on their side. And when they act kind “compassionate conservative” we want so badly to believe that they mean it, so we don’t have to go through the consequences of we the american people ending our relationship with them.
The walk ahead is not for sissies.
mui @ 180
and don’t forget abu torture paved the way for their new defense strategy;
“I forget”
Impeachment of Clinton failed AND the Republicans DID NOT suffer!!!!!
Swopa @ 138
The Republicans always do this anyway. As David Ehrenstein remarked, if we say, “Scooter Libby”, they will yell, “Marc Rich”. This hasn’t been a good reason for Democratic inaction when they were in the minority. It is not a good reason now. If Republicans yell, “Overreach”, we should reply, “If you want to see overreach, look at what this President and Vice President have been doing the last 6 1/2 years. It’s not overreach, it’s called accountability, and why exactly do Republicans want to protect crooks?”
Thom Hartman sums it up perfectly:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com:80/thread/8552
Impeachment right at this point would be an immediately polarizing action that would completely turn-off the 60% of the country who get their news from the Network soundbites. It is unfortuante but it is the reality we face. Impeachment has been marginalized thanks to Newt and Co in the 90s. If it were proposed today, it would just be “payback for Clinton” and it makes no difference that we have truth and justice on our side. No one wants to hear about truth and justice when Paris or Britney’s latest escapades are leading the news shows.
Keep the light shining. Investigate and keep overturning the rocks. Use the media and force them to do their jobs. Support the Waxman and Leahy efforts. Keep contacting the critters, even the worthless, execrable types like I have to deal with.
The public perception does change. I had a conversation with a semi-wing nut friend the other evening and he was tired of all the crying of fear by the administration and recognized the stupididty of it after having lived through the cold war. Unfortuantely JARs in the twenties for Bush and teens for Cheney do not translate to effective removal from office. What it does do is translate to healthy skepticism for any proposals that come out of the admin.
Tony Snowjob says the Congress needs to stop investigating and pass some legsislation? Make sure everyone is aware that Trent Lott brags about how the Rs are being obstructionist and how the admin refuses to give the information Congress needs. Use their words back at them. Ask What is the admin trying to hide? If they didn’;t break the law, then why can’t they comply?
My $.02
perris @ 179
isn’t that what made everyone so angry with rahm & chuck? which deal? by whom? what happens when the inevitable happens (again) and it backfires? nuh uh! no thanks! with all respect…
Thank you for the clarity of your post. You make a very powerful case that can help cut through all of the fog out there (I am still amazed to see someone like Tweety pretending not to understand the difference between the uproar over the Clinton pardons and the uproar over this pardon–is he really that stupid?).
Libby’s commutation is obstruction of justice, pure and simple, and this administration needs to be held accountable.
As you suggested, no one said it better than the founders:
In the same convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to “pardon crimes which were advised by himself” or, before indictment or conviction, “to stop inquiry and prevent detection.”
James Madison responded: [I]f the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty.
Today, in the Washington Post, there are two columns arguing for what an outrage this is. Eugene Robinson’s is titled The Commuter in Chief, while E.J. Dionne’s is An Unpardonable Act. Two columnists taking similar views on the same day of the op-ed page of the neo-con-loving Washington Post? You know that something is up.
How can we help turn this outrage into action?
barbara @ 184
every week we find a new republican that tells us the president has to change course
that would have happened sooner if we were dealing for their votes
they have been thrown under the bus by this adminsitration, they lost their coveted power because of these morons and they are about to loose their job outright
they will do whatever they can to keep their jobs
it’s time to deal
fdl reader @ 182
I can tell you for certain that impeachment won’t happen unless we all push for it.
As Scarecrow has said earlier, it makes sense to start pushing for impeachment immediately, so we set the table for it when the final piece of evidence shows up that shifts the national mood past the point of no return.
Pragmatically, if we don’t push for impeachment now, the votes for impeachment will never happen – no matter what Bush does before he leaves office. We need to set the table immediately and get the nation talking about impeachment. Then, anything can happen.
Sonoma Rus @ 168
There is no way that Fred Thompson would be confirmed as VP by a majority vote in both houses at this point in an election cycle. There are too many Senators and Representatives from both parties running to give Freddie boy a leg up for the nomination. Ain’t happening.
Hate to speak out of turn (off topic) but isn’t it nice how the 6th Circuit has declared that the ACLU and defendents (all of us) have no “standing” in the NSA wiretapping case? YES it is unconstitutional but as citizens of the United States, you have no standing when that piece of paper is violated.
EVERY American citizen has “standing” whenever the Constitution is violated. By definition. ANY violation of the Constitution harms EVERYONE living now or coming in the future. EVERYONE, EVERY citizen ALWAYS has standing when the Constitution is spat on.
You cannot secretly, but harmlessly, violate the Constitution.
Sonoma Rus @ 168
Oy Vey!
I think it is “damn the torpedos”[sp] time for the Democrats.
“why can’t they comply?”
Because they are the bullies in the public marketplace. You know the sneering face, the taunting voice that says, “Make me!”
They think rules are for losers. Just once, I’d like our representatives to show them that they are WRONG.
Scarecrow @ 160
Ding! Ding! Ding!
cancer_cures @ 162
To the first: By commuting Libby’s sentence, Bush keeps him out of jail with his 5th amendment rights to not incriminate himself still intact. Libby doesn’t have to testify against either Bush or Cheney that way … he can say he’s pleading the 5th and get away with it. The commutation is an impeachable act and obstruction justice because it protects and benefits Bush directly. (Nixon was charged for talking about clemency with his people. Direct comparison.)
To the second: Rich wasn’t Clinton’s employee either when he committed whatever-it-was, or when he was pardoned. Clinton didn’t benefit from pardoning Rich; if anything, he lost by it, since it’s still being used against him years after he left office. (I understand the pardon was done at the request of the Israeli government. Take it up with them.)
emptywheel @ 18
How Can the statements by Bush and Cheney to the Special Prosecutor in regard to the Plame outing ever be released?
James @176,
I have no link, just memories that Mark Rich’s wife contributed money to a Clinton campaign. I can see how some could speculate this the same as a bribe for getting her husband pardoned. Still, since Clinton did it the last day of office, there would be no chance to IMPEACH him for this action. Just like if Bush pardoned Libby on the last day in office. That is assuming 1.) Clinton’s pardon was illegal. 2.) Bush’s pardon was illegal.
TiredFed @ 182
I should have clarified this to mean government has come to a grinding halt in the areas that matter to everyone except defense contractors, lobbyists, Bush loyalists.
The real workings of govt for the common good has stopped dead.
Kathleen @ 197
It gets better! Lynn Cheney is working for Thompson. Who wants to bet on whether or not Lynn becomes the VP candidate? Cheney STILL gets to pull the string because, as we all know, Thompson is as much an empty puppet as Bush is. Cheney doesn’t need to be in office to control the office…and Lynn Cheney would be more than happy to continue with the magic Cheney powers of extra-constitutional government.
cleter @ 172
The impeachment hearing were not the investigations that got the information out that resulted in Nixon resigning. It was all the other investigations, both by Congress and the Special prosecutors criminal investigations that did so. The HJC just aggregated the info and pulled the levers.
dakine01 @ 161
Sorry Jane…
Why should we base our prosecutions on how a Jury (Senate) would vote BEFORE a trial.. I realize the realities of the rabid repugs voting party line, but remember Nixon resigned in order to avoid the POSSIBILITY of an impeachment once the repug leadership made that walk down Pennsylvania ave to inform him he had lost their support. This is exactly why we need the Judiciary Committee hearings so that even the repugs realize that continued support of Nixon.. er.. I mean Dubya is political suicide..
America, and all it’s values, constitution and dreams, is being beaten into submission by a group of people who do not represent the american people’s best interests. They are stuffing their pockets and grabbing for future power. This is a tough reality to face. They will break the laws to save themselves.
We must impeach regardless of the outcome. WE must have the investigation that will have the potential to let the american people finally see the truth. It will all come out in the impeachment process.
We must impeach. Not impeaching is just like not giving consequences to a wayward child just because “it won’t do any good.” We will not control this crew but impeachment gives the message that the path is not clear and at the very least we will be a vicious pain in the ass.
It’s like telling your pot smoking kid they can’t smoke in the house. It will not control the behavior but it makes it a little less easy to do.
We have to do this america…our laws require it.
cancer_cures @ 162
At a minimum Bush had command responsibility. But further, per Marcy, “It doesn’t take minutiae to prove that Bush has sheltered” someone whose crime was ‘advised by himself.’ It takes Libby’s notes and grand jury testimony.”
No. There’s no evidence that Rich had evidence of a crime by Clinton.
cancer_cures @ 203
Arrrrgh! Scooter Libby was Rich’s lawyer. I say no more.
fdl reader @ 187
This is a great point.
I think it’s Cheney’s daughter Elizabeth you’re thinking of, not his wife.
cancer_cures @ 202
Clinton’s pardon of Marc Rich was done because Ehud Barak asked for it.
cancer_cures @ 202
Denise Rich (Marc Rich’s ex-wife) had donated money to Clinton campaigns. But Clinton has stated multiple times, including again recently, that the Rich pardon was as a favor to Isr*el and whomever their PM was at the time. And was the second choice at that, since they wanted Jonathon Pollard at first.
What do you think the Republicans up for re-election are thinking at this point? Isn’t having Bush continue to flaunt the law going to pull them all under?
I keep going back to Nixon – the Republicans saw that they were all going to pay for Nixon, and that’s when the tide turned. Isn’t that likely in this situation as well?
cancer_cures @ 209
to take the point further, it was that reason Gore tried to distance himself from Clinton by running with liarman
Let’s be clear here, Impeachment is a viable option and there could be 67 senators willing to convict. The smoking canon in Cheney’s case is only one patriotic testimony away.
Omerta always gives way.
It is naive to believe the political calculation that a supermajority in ‘08 in the senate is worth more the the vitriol of the process. If the ax if going to fall, it would fall fast.
None of this will be easier after we begin to bomb Iran, and it will next to impossible if SCJ Stevens dies.
Ghostman @ 163
Yes ~ we are letting too many charges go by without action; we are creating a stream of bygones that only weaken our cause.
And when Bush said that he wanted to find out who leaked Valerie’s name, and that he would oust the person(s)…?
The right got rightous because Clinton “lied” to the American public when he said “I did not have sex with that woman!”
Where is their outrage when Bush lied to cover his own ass???
Mojo @ 206
At the time of his resignation, three articles of impeachment against Nixon had been voted by the HJC. The make-up at that time was 21D-17R. The votes were 27-11 for the first two articles and 23-15 for the third. All Ds voted in favor. This was prior to the release of the Smoking gun tape at which point Barry Goldwater and Hugh Scott went in and told Nixon he had NO support and would be removed from office when it came to the Senate.
Jane is right. We do not have the votes, it’s as simple as that. And what on earth makes us think that the WH will cooperate? No light, no documents, no testimony, they’ll hold their breath until they turn blue and Congress can go sit and spin.
And when the House ends up short on votes to impeach, it will be an exoneration for Bush and yet another example of Democratic weakness.
Unless we have something concrete, something we can prove now (with documentation and testimony), something that’s criminal and can be explained in a short, easy narrative, it’s just not going to happen.
Next time a Republican brings up Marc Rich, say “Exactly! That’s why you impeached him!”, and make the Republican explain to you what the Clinton impeachment was about. Then insist that it was both Lewinsky AND Mark Rich that brought the impeachment. Confuse them with lies. Seems to work on Congressional Democrats.
Ghostman @ 163
Yes!!!
Contempt of Congress upheld by SCOTUS would be concrete.
Will someone please step up to the plate and give everyone in the Bush administration bj’s so that they can be impeached.
This type of activity is what really gets the Republicans juices flowing. The Republicans take lying under oath about an extra marital affair seriously. Lying under oath to Fitz, impeding the investigation of the outing of a covert CIA agent obstucting justice, undermining National Security in the process is just “business as usual” for the Bush administration.
We should be used to it by now!
This Administration will never stop acting the way it does short of impeachment. Impeachment is not about finding them guilty. It is about holding them accountable.
The war in Iraq is important but if Republicans are willing to hold our troops hostage in order to protect Bush and Cheney from the consequences of their actions, then this too should be made known to all Americans.
TiredFed @ 157
Just the thought of Cheney having control of the football gives me the heebie jeevies.
sofistic @ 196
so do I. The votes weren’t there for Nixon, and we’ll never know how they would have voted in the Senate because he resigned before the House could impeach him. But the case against Nixon was based on a political dirty trick, which was then covered up by the Administration. the coverup was the crime. The subversion of the Justice Department (firing U.S. Attorneys, hiring “the right people”, etc.) is similar in nature, in that it is a concerted attempt to politicize the Federal government, in violation of several laws and longstanding traditions. However, the treasonous behavior in the Valerie Plame case and the illegal wiretapping of Americans are clearly high crimes (way above a misdemeanor in my book). You want evidence? In the Plame Affair, you are going to need testimony from one of the four people in the room when Cheney went to Bush to discuss what to do about Joe Wilson. But for the illegal wiretapping, there are far more players who can attest to lawbreaking ordered by the President himself, including current and former high-ranking Justice Department officials (no, not Abu). That’s where I would focus my attention.
xyz @ 111:
This is what happened with Iran Contra, and here we are again, same actors, new play. Look at the names, they are the same, they have all been down this road before.
This group needs to be stopped, they are all still young, in their late 50’s, early 60’s, so they aren’t going to “naturally” retire, we must “retire” this bunch, and censure will not do that.
merciless @ 221
Okay – For the sake of argument, assume the WH stonewalls. Who looks bad – the WH or the Democrats in Congress?
One other point. Even if the WH stonewalls, Congress can still use impeachment to access all of the records from Fitzgerald’s investigation. Think there might be anything explosive in there?
cancer_cures @ 211
They got whacked in the midterm elections despite the pecksniffery of the press about how Clinton was doomed.
That said, I’m for impeachment. Even a failed one amplifies for the average citizen the crisis of lawlessness the country faces, and reminds them that concrete criminals, not some amorphous and anonymous collective, lied us into the war.
It’s probably a cliche, but I bet the public is like a spouse who knows he’s being cheated on, wants a divorce, and is ready to hire a private detective to nail the cheater.
Has “Sealed vs. Sealed” been proven to be an empty theory?
merciless @ 221
I also agree with Jane. The voting public talks about health care, jobs, getting out of Iraq, global warming etc. The are not speaking about impeachment. They would rather have their problems solved instead of Congress being tied up and not solving them. I believe the public would see impeachment as “same old politics” while letting their problems go by the boards.
Kathleen @ 222
Speaking of which, whatever happened to those DC madam phone records? Why hasn’t she released them already?
merciless @ 220
With all due respect, isn’t this just a variant on “keep the powder dry”?
Votes aren’t something you have, they are something you make, through the process. There weren’t enough votes to impeach Nixon, until there were.
Do you only vote if you are going to win? Anybody here ever vote for a primary candidate who didn’t win? Any Kucinich voters? Anybody vote for Nader? Or Kerry? Or Mondale? Why did you waste your time on a candidate who didn’t have enough votes?
Isn’t the impeachment investigation as much and end in itself as the potential removal of Cheney and/or Bush from office?
One would think that it is Congress’ Constitutional Duty to Impeach Bush and Cheney? I mean the evidence is overwhelming, so rather than it being a choice at this point it should be absolutely mandatory!
A bibliographical note (since I couldn’t find this elsewhere), the Mason-Madison exchange is recorded in original in the third volume of Elliot, pages 496-498.
You can find the whole of the Constitutional debates: J. Elliot, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution
bellesouth @ 237
Exactly. Congress should do it because it’s there goddamned duty, regardless of the votes.
perris @ 216
I think you’re rehashing the conventional wisdom of the time. We don’t know why Gore chose Lieberman, or whether he did at all. As far as I’m concerned the Democrats under Clinton and in 2000 were saddled by the press and the establishment with Republican minders and agents: Gergen, Cohen, Morris, Brazile and, not least of all, Lieberman.
bellesouth @ 237
You know what the U.S. congress needs to take Impeachment seriously.
dakine01 @ 217
Precisely why we need to investigate like they did in 1974, to FIND the smoking gun.. in this case the connection between Libby’s perjury and the Iraq war group’s activities leading up to this catastrophic betrayal of our country.
merciless @ 221
And as we speak they are destroying evidence while Congress is being oh so polite in extending their subpoena response deadline.
Dali Lama’s birthday! Do true Buddhist celebrate birthdays?
If Buddhist celebrate birthdays how old would the Dali Lama be if you were to count all his lifetimes?
20,ooo years old?
*xyz @ 230
YES!!!
Fresh thread up and going for everyone.
cleter @ 235
No, I don’t think it’s a dry powder argument at all. And don’t get me wrong, I want to see the whole lot of them tarred and feathered on the White House lawn tomorrow at noon. I just don’t think we’d get the results from an impeachment hearing that we’d want. I think the WH has the ability to stonewall everything Congress throws at it until they leave office, and we’d ultimately end up right where we are now, except weaker.
It’s not my wish. I wish we had some heroes that came forth with the truth. I wish we had more congressmen with cojones. I wish we had the ability to get the evidence we need. I wish we had the equivalent of Rosemary Wood’s tapes. But we have none of those things. We’re not powerless, but we don’t have enough power to successfully impeach. And if we weren’t successful, I think it would be worse than if we took the road Conyers, Wexler, Leahy, et al. are taking now. That’s my argument.
ironranger @ 24
Clinton did not pardon ANYONE who worked either directly for him, or for any of his officials, nor did he pardon anyone who was concealing a crime performed by someone in his Administration.
Kathleen @ 225
Yah, after all, all they did was endanger the lives of God knows how many people. God only knows how many people were killed as a result of Ms. Plame being outed. Not to mention the threat to national security. But that just pales in comparison to a single blow job.
“I feel like from a pragmatic point of view, if we start the all-consuming process of impeachment, the war (and all those who are suffering because of it) will just have to wait for a solution.”
Jane – your comments are well taken.
But Dems have already clearly shown their inability to stop this war. Most Dems in Congress lack the guts to do what it takes – simply cut off funding. Short of that, there is little further that can be accomplished by Dems at this time.
What may actually stop the war is if Repug legislators abandon it. This will initially be most likely with those facing reelection who are suddenly behind in their private polling (Domenici, Doolittle,…). It will then likely spread to others. When enough Repugs change sides, the troops will begin to come home, and not until then.
Impeachment is a separate issue. The possible charges are numerous and serious – not just a blow job this time. Once an impeachment is in process, everyone (even the MSM) will increasingly doubt and question everything said or done by the Cheney-Bush junta. Any statement or action made by anyone connected with the administration will be assumed to be calculated to help them avoid impeachment. In this way, a pending impeachment will severely damage the administration’s remaining credibility in all areas, even among it’s remaining supporters. That’s how it played out under Nixon.
IMHO, one could reasonably predict that impeachment will help end the war earlier rather than later.
EPU territory, but…
We all agree that impeachment is warranted, even Constitutionally necessary. We disagree on practicality and political expediency.
Seems to me the Dems are bullied into dropping the ball, repeatedly. We caved on the Alito nomination, and generally show lack of follow-through. We can talk ourselves out of saying we don’t have the votes, now, but as ‘08 draws nearer and the occupation worsens, it will be politically expedient for Bush to be the GOPs Jonah and cast overboard, lest he take them all down with him.
None of us have ever seen such an assault on our institutions of government. The polls are firmly against this administration on every issue. The people are awaiting, and will respond favorably to, leadership.
EW-
Once again, great job. Refined insight.
I know Christy helped the other day with posting phone numbers and addresses to contact.
However, a strong email with a follow-up snail mail reply (pay for a signed receipt too) would have some potential impact. If some “talking point” paragraphs for letters and emails could be suggested, especially using Mason and Madison quotes. We need to also send copies of our letters to local paper editorial pages.
I would also like to see some language regarding what steps citizens will take next should Congress fail to move on this. It is my understanding we can start with our states AJ and motion for a vote for Impeachment on the state level legislature (like VT )
snip
The key amendment involved the addition of a call for the Vermont House and Senate to take up the issue. Though it is a little-known and even less-used power, state legislatures can officially forward impeachment resolutions to Congress.
We need to let Congress know We the People will take it on if they do not and that they can be held responsible too.
Sounds crazy but we need to move on this as citizens with actions that will be projected as “vote power” or a lack of “re-election power”.
You may also request that you be removed from you political party mailing list.
And if you consider these ideas naive musings, check here for the data.
But we need to make our letters our own. Just cut and paste a few factual talking points that EW, Christy and Jane may suggest. We can also suggest graphs in the comments as we post.
We HAVE to generate the volume of snail mail (especially signed receipt mail) and we have a chance. Just check the data… This is it folks…Crazy but true…
tommy yum @ 252
epu maybe, but read.
Well said! Thank you!
I firmly believe the Democrats should begin by impeaching Gonzales. Work from the bottom of the totem pole, decapitating it poses too many hazards.
And if a wing-nut screams “Marc Rich,” ask them who Rich’s attorney was…
Adie @ 254
And if Congress does not move, here’s another way to get it going…
Mojo @ 242
I agree. Investigate the hell out of ‘em. But not with an impeachment heairng. As SOON as the word impeachment is uttered, people’s minds will close and the barriers go up. Let Waxman and his government Oversight Committee and Leahy and the Senate Judiciary lay everything out with all the eharings in the world before bringing it up as impeachment. Once impeachment is set up, most everybody goes into a hardened position.
Kathleen @ 244
Yes, Tibetan Buddhists celebrate the birthdays, I have attended the local center’s birthday party for their leader, the Karmapa.
merciless @ 221
This would have been like me and the other four guys in my team deciding not to launch an ambush because there were only five of us and thirty NVA.
If you don’t take the chance you will never know, and this IS a life or death decision concerning our country’s future.
I was willing to die for something I hardly understood when I was 19 and I’m more than willing to die for the futures of my kids and grandkids now.
Forget the votes…throw a grenade their way and let them throw it back; what’s the worst thing that can happen?
Tithonia @ 234
Probably because she’d be out of business for releasing that sensitive info.
Twain @ 233
I personally can’t understand why FISA violations don’t immediately constitute grounds for impeachment, let alone Emptywheel’s point here.
Also, Twain’s comment seems to assume that bills on global warming, health care, etc. are actually possible in this senate. To paraphrase senate republicans:
“It . ain’t . gonna . happen.”
The congress must at least attempt to curb the over-reach of this executive. I can see no more important issue to address, including health insurance and Iraq.
cancer_cures @ 260
The ruling came just yesterday, allowing her to release them, IIRC.
This situation looks to me like it could effectively take down Cheney and Bush thus ending the occupations quickly as any other possibility, imo. Cheneys removal (suspension ending in impeachment) would require hearings and investigation re his role in the Plame outing (a bit more sunlight for the american public, not much). Bush simply lied to the american public from the get go on this investigation and ultimately obstructed and abused his powers last week, that is plain and simple.. (file media footage alone should be enough)
It’s the triple play that makes this a home run: America facing up to the fact we were lied into a war, accountability at the top for the lies and cover up, and ending the occupation for our troops and countries integrity.
I am just starting the thread but would like to know more about LHP’s suggestion yesterday re suspension of the vice president or president… so his pardon powers would be nullified until impeached.. Also could the same (suspension) be applied to Cheney for the duration of hearings? Suspension seems far more important than censure unless as others have mentioned they are all complimentary steps.
This is about government and the people waking up, not grinding to a halt, imo.
Eureka Springs @ 263
Hey ES … how’s it goin’, eh?
I would also like to hear more about this suspension … have the Dems been handed a gift ?
LHP mentioned it first at comment #90 here.. will try to find one othe rmention of it if I can..in a moment
life is an empty wheel *g*
Jane Hamsher @ 158
This is EXACTLY where we disagree. The votes to convict on impeachment are not there TODAY. Put the evidence on the front page of every newspaper in the country where the majority of the public will see it, and the votes will follow.
Just by the way…..
54% favor Cheney impeachment
dakine01 @ 164
Again, I vehemently disagree. Perhaps someone can explain to me why we have a trial system at all if everything is settled in advance. This is an absurd and defeatist view point.
Impeachment, of Gonzalez, of Bush, of Cheney, is amply justified and needed. But it can only be accomplished if and when Bush/Cheney — and the Republican Party as a whole — are sufficiently weakened, and when the American public is pissed off that it’s virtually a no-brainer.
The popular meme that the Dems are “pusillanimous,” or duplicitous, or whatever, is off base. The Democratic party is far from what most of us would like it to be, and certainly there are unreliable and treacherous Democrats to various degrees, and we know who they are (Lieberman is the classic). But I don’t believe that is the case with the Dem leadership and investigators like Waxman, Conyers, et al. Including Reid & Pelosi. Whatever the normal degree of collusion between the parties, this bunch is off the charts and the Dem leadership would sincerely like to be rid of the bastards but they know — a lot better than their critics — the great strategic difficulties involved.
Therefore, I think the basic strategy that makes sense at this point is to pursue anything they CAN actually accomplish — chosen on a political cost/benefit basis — that will weaken Bush/Cheney. I believe this has in fact been their basic strategy since January, and I believe it is working. It’s just that it’s slow and incremental. But surely results can be seen. The Repugs are standing at the edge of a cliff.
And you can count on Bush & Cheney to help this effort along by always responding in a way that, while in one sense it always ups the ante, in the political sense, it is guaranteed to erode their support even further.
Basically, what we are seeing is a bunch of thugs who don’t play by the usual political rules any more, because they can’t — except for spin — but the spin no longer works either, because a significant majority of the public doesn’t believe anything they say.
That means that, politically, they are digging their own graves, but they continue to fight by gaming the system, by lying, cheating, etc. In the process they try to give themselves new “powers” that the public essentially doesn’t believe they really have, because they are alien to our political traditions and are not supported by the Constitution. So the two Repug processes, political, and survival by any means, undercut each other. This Libby commutation
may well be the tipping point, but if it isn’t quite, we can be sure it’s not far off…
Sun-Tzu in the Art of War, says that when your enemy is in disarray and on the run, DON’T attack them strongly to finsih them off, because then they will become desperate, turn around, and fight to the death, knowing there is nothing to lose. Just keep them off balance and on the run.
Its’ slow, it’s incremental, and people are — understandably — impatient. But it its probably the only thing that will work. Death by a thousand cuts. The calculus for Dem leadership in any instance is this. What can we do that will further erode their position and strengthen ours? According to the basic strategy I’ve outlined, the emphasis should not be so much on the “what” (i.e. censure or no censure), but on the likely result. Censure does not sound like a particularly strong move, but if it were to pass I’m sure it would hurt them to some degree, and if it doesn’t pass, it has at least the advantage (in the leadup to 2008) of putting the spotlight on those who support Bush/Cheney, adding pressure for next time. Censure is not an end on itself, it’s just a means, It doesn’t preclude going further, it helps pave the way.
Impeaching Gonzalez also seems a good move, and one with more substance. It would appear at least within the realm of possibility — but ultimately it comes down to who’s got the votes.
Sometimes people write in, “WHY don’t the Dems act more vigorously? If they’re that scared, it must be that the Repugs have something on each and every one of them. Nonsense. If that were the case, we would have sedn evidence of it long ere this — it would be wall-to-wall Democrat scandal time, where in fact it’s wall-to-wall Republican scandal time. Basically the reason the Dems don’t act more vigorously is, they haven’t got enough leverage, especially in the Senate. But where they do have the power, namely in controlling the investigative committees, they are certainly using it. And if you cannot see a big difference between pre jan 2007 and post jan 2007, you’re just not paying attention.
Tithonia @ 212
You’re right. I get them mixed up…all being a cut of the same cloth afterall. Monsters, every single one of them. Sociopaths beget sociopaths.
The failure of congress would not be in attempting to impeach and not getting the votes.
The failure would be in not making the attempt.
Listen to the founders :
Thanks emptywheel.
oh yeah this too…
Reagan’s NSA Cheif Odom puts impeachment back on the table
“The final step should be to put that president on notice that if ignores this legislative action and tries to extort Congress into providing funds by keeping U.S. forces in peril, impeachment proceeding will proceed in the House of Representatives. Such presidential behavior surely would constitute the “high crime” of squandering the lives of soldiers and Marines for his own personal interest”.
The votes are there folks. It’s gonna be a political “scratch and sniff”. We all smell extraconstitutional corruption. The republic has a leaky septic system.
Plug it with sunshine.
Link didn’t take for #273
Think Progress
Uh Ok
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/…..t-impeach/
cancer_cures @ 162
Yes, there is proof. The response to the Wilson’s went into overdrive when Bush expressed concern about the Kristof allegations, just after COndi got beat up on TV on June 8. There is documentary proof of that in Libby’s notes, with his GJ testimony.
There is also Libby’s testimony that Cheney told him that Bush himself authorized Libby to leak whatever it was he leaked to Judy Miller on July 8.
And there is the note–in Cheney’s own handwriting–that indicates Cheney believed Bush asked Libby to “stick his neck in the meat grinder” in the response to Wilson.
Sonoma Rus @ 168
And Fred Thompson will win approval from Congress exactly how?
fdl reader @ 200
Um, sorry, you’re wrong.
I’m not advocating setting out on an investigation by saying it’s an impeachment investigation. I’m saying we start out on an investigation for the sake of the investigation, with the language ofimpeachment on the table–not least because taht gives us greater subpoena power than, say, a censure dalliance would.
Swopa’s plan, however, will stand or fall, next week, when Wexler submits his motion. Which is to say, we ask people to vote next week, without having first made the case. Hmmm. That’s process?
spurious @ 40
Exactly!
The phrases I read last night “why aren’t you rioting in the streets?” and “where is your famous American bravery now?” are still ringing in my head…I feel so ashamed. I don’t want to be known as a compliant fascist.
We must get our pride back.
phred @ 269
Impeachment is NOT a part of the criminal justice system. It is a POLITICAL act and at this time, it is not a political winner. In fact at this time, it would cause the Dems more political troubles than benefits.
Hmmm…we can’t get votes? If the timing is close to reelection time, it seems even diehards like Domenici feel the heat and start changing their tune on Iraq.
You want to get reelected? vote to impeach the crooks.
All the vindictiveness towards Libby on this site is quite apalling. It’s Friday. TGIF for Libby. What do you think he has done today. He has probably taken phone calls from his lawyer who has taken phone calls from another lawyer for Libby which concern communications from Cheney to Libby through another lawyer up the line, all of which are laundered through the attorney client privilege. Libby could care less about about being a scoundrel, so he is a disbarred attorney arising out of perjury. So is Clinton a disbarred attorney arising out of perjury.
What we should all be doing is trying to figure out a way to keep the Cheneys, Bushes and Clintons and their like out of public office. To compare Clinton to Bush and conclude he better than Bush is no different than watching one bad movie which is worse than the other bad movie. Neither afford a reality which is productive or helpful for this country.
Wow!! Our “Law and Order” leader undermines a Justice Department’s conviction because it was “too harsh”. Isn’t this the same L/O guy who refused to stay executions no matter the circumstances? We sure do not want harsh sentences for (friends of bush)people obstucting justice; not a bush friend or a friend of Cheney?…Too bad, the penalties cannot be harsh enough to those without connections. That is what I call tough on crime!
dakine01 @ 280
I grant you it is a political act, in that anything congress does is such. But impeachment is primarily a constitutional act. And you appear to be saying that we should not undertake this constitutional act because it isn’t politically convenient. That is bad government, in my opinion. They are sworn to uphold the constitution, not their political party.
Or do you think that oath stuff is just silly.
dakine01 @ 280
I think if Dems and any self respecting Repubs don’t move to impeach, the ire will spill over onto them as well. They must exercise the check to regal power that they have.
OK it’s political, how can it not be? To me, that “political” stuff is what Bush and Snow say everything (like they aren’t). Of course, it’s political. Democracy is political. So what? I say the Dems and any repubs that vote for it win Big Democracy Points.
so = do
emptywheel @ 277
Who approves? The senate or the house? If the senate, then Lieberman votes for Thompson and Cheney breaks the tie. If he house, then they might cave in because they just do that.
casual observer @ 283
No, the sworn oath is not silly. And yes, it is a constitutional act. But the CURRENT reality is, it would not fly. I would much rather have the Dems beating up on the Reps for the next 18 months, highlighting ALL the criminal acts of the entire Bush admin than to go into a suicide action in the Congress that is doomed from the outset. It is a one shot deal and we can’t waste that shot without overwhelming evidence to convince the 60%ers.
Impeachment is ALWAYS an overtly (and inconvenient) political act. As if the GOPers were EAGER to impeach Nixon! They weren’t. They were going to HAVE to, however, because of the evidence that was presented (and building up pre-impeachment).
The PEOPLE will drive this too. They ARE behind impeaching Cheney, period. They are split on Bush. If you go after Cheney, then it inevitably drags in Bush. I’d bet HIS numbers favorable for impeaching him would start climbing to and above 50% during the course of a Cheney impeachment, but even if, you could STOP at Cheney because you chop him off, you chop off the idea of a “unitary executive”. That is, heart and soul, Cheney. Disavow him for his actions in service to the “unitary executive” and you disavow the “unitary executive.
Praedor Atrebates @ 286
It requires a majority in both houses for an appointee to become the new VP.
If Cheney has already resigned, he is not available to break a tie vote. That’s the premise of why the vote is needed in the first place, because the VP position is empty. And Brownback and McCain are not going to give a competitor a leg up to run for the Presidency. It Will Not Happen.
dakine01 @ 289
Do’h! Of course…Cheney’s gone…but what happens with a tie in the senate (and a solid vote in house? The need for a new victim or just a lot of jockeying?
I’ve joined this discussion late again, so this may already have been discussed. But someone please tell me this couldn’t happen:
Congress begins hearings on impeachment. The Bush administration counters by beginning to bomb Iran. The attention of the nation and of Congress is deflected, we’re at war with Iran anyway, Cheney and Bush get off the hook again.
dakine01 @ 287
I don’t see how impeachment precludes highlighting ALL the criminal acts.
Re: ‘waste’–the only waste is in not taking the shot at all, because the weather was unfavorable. Not only a waste, but an abrogation of sworn constitutional duty.
See, there’s that oath again. Pesky damn thing.
Re impeachment: the votes aren’t there yet. Not even close. Must build the case first, thru hearings.
egregious @ 293
If you mean the votes aren’t there in the HOUSE yet to slap the impeachment papers down, then OK (the goddamn Bluedog Republicrats are a thorn in the side of the Constitution and regular Americans), but if you mean for conviction in the senate…GAH! You DON’T seek a vote of guilty from a jury BEFORE a trial. You get their votes AFTER all the evidence is displayed. The difference here is that the evidence is gathered as part of the process and there is no “executive privilege” dodge available either…and no court interference.
Praedor Atrebates @ 295
An impeachment from the House without a corresponding conviction and removal is decidely wasted effort. It means Bush wins and the Dems have lost. Nothing more nor less. There HAS to be enough votes for conviction in the Senate AND within the American public or it will destroy the possibilities for future Dem administrations in ‘08 and beyond. If there is no conviction and removal then it was just payback by the Dems for Clinton and it allows the repubs to be viable in ‘08.
dakine01 @ 280
I did not mean to imply that impeachment is part of the criminal justice system. It IS the way to remove an authoritarian executive which was one of the great concerns of the founders given their experience with monarchs.
I think you are dead wrong on this creating political problems for the Dems. If the Dems fail to defend the Constitution (as they swore an oath to do), then they will fail to attract the support that they seem to be taking for granted in 2008. As I recall, plenty of people voted for Dems in 2006 ENTIRELY out of opposition to Republican policies and corruption, NOT out of support for Democrats.
If the Dems fail to stand up for the rule of law, then I see no advantage in supporting them. None.
dakine01 @ 295
I just fundamentally disagree with this thinking. You are willing to sustain permanent damage to our constitutional system in order to get your man (or woman) elected. Or this is what it sounds like. A classic case of party before country.
Well said, Marcy. I’d vote for ya.
Help Final Push to Impeachment
It’s time! ImpeachForPeace.org is traveling to Washington DC at the end of this month to deliver thousands of Do-It-Yourself Impeachment Memorials to
key representatives in the House!
Support for impeachment is building. As of this writing, 14 reps are supporting Dennis Kucinich’s resolution to impeach Dick Cheney (H. Res. 333).
Even if you’ve sent them to your congressperson before, Click here to send us your DIY Memorials before we go.
You may not realize that the only thing standing between where we are today and a nationally televised impeachment investigation is the House Judiciary passing this resolution, which is currently awaiting consideration in their
committee. Luckily, the head of this committee, John Conyers, has said recently that he supports of the national impeachment movement.
All we need to push it over the edge is public support, and that’s where we come in.
Video of our trip will be posted on our website shortly upon our return. We’ll let you know when it’s up!
Click here to be a part of this!
Here’s a funny video about this unique strategy
dakine01 @ 280
More troubles than benefits?
Provide some real evidence please.
And it better be damn good evidence, because the burden of proof lies with those who would argue against a full investigation of the wrongdoing of this investigation.
Seriously, why are people cowering in fear of using a tool (impeachment) which the founding fathers intended to be used for just this situation?
I just don’t get it.
IMO, I think the congressional judiciary committee needs to vote to impeach Cheney first, then Bush. Or, both of them simultaneously- I have not heard that there is anything on the books to preclude the simultaneous route… It would save time, and it would make sense to Americans bc we know that Bush gave Cheeny much, much more power than other presidents have given their VPs- more power, and more power to do harm. I would support congress today on either measure.
I agree- don’t count the votes for impeachment until all the evidence is shown chronologically, and how each department and arm of the American govt. has been, politically infiltrated by Bush/Cheeny power grabs, lies, and cover-ups. I think that affirmative votes will grow- given a thoughtful, rational lay out of the raw truths of the matter.
Cheney spelled one e at a time. I knew that.
Going with my ear.
elef @ 292
I thought of that, too.
merciless @ 304
I believe the War Powers Act requires the president to confer with Congress prior to initiating any hostilities with another nation. I suppose if he blatantly disregarded the WPA, that could be used as yet another impeachment count against him
Great post! A move to censure would be a pre-emptive one, only. Beware of anyone who moves to censure.
Praedor Atrebates @ 196
Praedor A. – This is where Congress comes in. They aren’t required to establish “standing” before objecting to unConstitutional behavior by the Executive Branch, which has now apparently been confirmed by the Sixth Circuit. Yet another new opening for a possible count in an impeachment proceeding. I agree with emptywheel’s approach in this post; to repeat a comment I made at the end of Digby’s recent, impeachment comment thread here:
In the end, doesn’t impeachment come down to the people of this nation, as (nominally) represented in our federal legislature, deciding what standards of conduct we expect our highest federal public servants to meet and uphold? And when they don’t, saying so, in no uncertain terms, whether or not we can predict the precise ramifications of what our standing up for, and on, such principles will be in future? This President and this Vice President have fallen far, far below any minimum standards of conduct this country deserves from the leadership of its Executive Branch, in my opinion. To me, that is both the beginning and the ending analysis for a vote to impeach in the House. If we are afraid, or unwilling, to set and enforce such standards of conduct, we’ll get the government we deserve (and I believe what we are witnessing today is a coming home to roost of just such chickens from earlier eras).
Impeachment is so much different, qualitatively, than proving guilt to a jury ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ in a court of law, in accordance with a specific criminal statute, in order to deprive one individual of their liberty for a period of time. That rigid standard is the standard required of those public servants who uphold our laws for us, as Special Counsel Fitzgerald did for the few laws that applied to his grand jury investigation of the outing of Valerie Plame Wilson – one of our nation’s spy assets whose cover was blown by high officials in her own government.
Impeachment for that same damaging event, would instead consider the fact that it has (self-evidently) happened (regardless of whether we can prove in detail exactly how it did in fact come about), and whether there is enough evidence to indicate that those in positions of trust in high government office who should have prevented Wilson’s cover from being revealed, in fact chose not to, or recklessly let it happen, or even enabled it. Not to the level of “enough evidence” that is required in order to prosecute an individual in court under the IIPAct or the Espionage Act, or under the statutes for perjury or obstruction of justice, but simply in view of the plain fact that Valerie Plame Wilson’s CIA career as a WMD spy in the defense of this nation was ended by her own government, and that we, the people don’t condone, don’t wish to condone, and will not condone in future such a grave and damaging betrayal of our nation’s trust and the (at minimum) catastrophic failure to safeguard a “crown jewel” state secret by high and powerful Executive Branch officials.
We don’t yet know the evidence in full. We probably don’t yet know the evidence in half, because we have an AWOL ‘free press.’ We do have a stellar and thorough (and mostly-still-secret) investigation upon which to build, thanks to Special Counsel Fitzgerald and his team. [Kathleen @ 202, looseheadprop spelled out the process for obtaining that grand jury evidence in an impeachment proceeding via Christy’s link @ 13, and I tried to encourage that approach as an opening salvo for impeachment hearings as a response to Bush’s action on Monday, in emptywheel’s recent ‘Off the Record Club’ thread at TNH.]
Congress ignores such evidence at its institutional peril. It has already effectively “dropped out” of the Constitutional scheme that was intended for it, especially under the years of Republican Party control, as Fred Barbash put it so well. “That Congress would refuse to fight seemed unimaginable” to our Founders, he also said, and “In a contest between two branches over separation of powers, silence speaks as powerfully as words” here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..v=hcmodule
Yet so far, Democratic Party control or at least ‘balance’ of our Congress, has failed to re-enroll the Congress as a separate, independent branch of our government, to the great peril of our Republic. John Conyers, Dave Obey, Nancy Pelosi, and their leadership team hold immense power in their hands today, when even Justice Scalia is agog at the ongoing “lassitude” of Congress in vital matters of war and peace and the defense of our nation (2004’s Hamdi v. Rumsfeld dissent). Why won’t they, when will they ever, exercise that power???
We are all flailing for an answer to the ongoing crisis simply because Congress is supposed to wield our power for us, but they are refusing to use most of it at all, and our ability to effectively pressure our “representatives” has been almost severed by corporate and foreign-lobby pseudo-ownership of their seats as a result of the exhorbitant cost of campaigning via full-corporate-rate television advertisements. Furthermore, as Bruce Fein has pointed out, their failure to act to even open impeachment investigations is probably at least in part due to the fact that the standards that we, the people, would wish our public servants to uphold in the Executive Branch do not now apply to, and are not now shared as a goal by, those now ensconced in our Legislative Branch, Republican and Democrat alike. A ‘What’s wrong with that?,’ ‘We do the same thing,’ ‘It’s just politics’ type of attitude from decades-long incumbents in Congress as they watch our President and Vice President lying to the nation. The rot is very deep.
All I know is that sitting and waiting for a “Democratic” (in more than name?) President will not lessen the rot, and will not make the effort to right the wrongs of the long silence and “surrender” of our Legislative Branch of government – in the face of brazenly unConstitutional Executive Branch assertions of power that have in fact been exercised – one wit easier when the day of reckoning at long last arrives.
P.S. For merciless @ 221 and Ghostman @ 163 and others: impeachment hearings cannot be blocked in the courts by objections from the Executive Branch the way normal oversight hearings can be (normal oversight must relate in some way to contemplated legislative action, not simply to wrong-doing that legislation alone cannot fix, when it comes to enforcing the process in court). Executive privilege claims vanish, for one, in an impeachment proceeding and the focus is solely on violations of the public trust and “high crimes and misdemeanors” by those in office. Congress knows this; we need to understand it too. And we do “have the votes” for half the process already, by virtue of a Democratic majority in the House, under Speaker Pelosi’s and Chairman Conyers’s leadership (if Pelosi can’t control the Blue Dogs on this, she should just publicly admit that there is no Democratic Party control of the House). The impeachment proceeding is where the sordid facts and the painful truths are unearthed for the American people and the Senate to see, and that process would take place in the House where Republicans cannot block us (although they can spy for the Executive Branch if care is not taken to prevent that).
P.P.S. I believe next week some critical decisions about whether or not we get out of Iraq within the next year will be made (as the Senate debates its FY 2008 Defense Authorization Bill). The same Constitutional powers Pelosi won’t use to impeach, she won’t use to cease funding the occupation of Iraq beyond an end-date certain (or to invoke Congressional war powers to unilaterally end the occupation) – so in a way the principle is the same. If we can get Pelosi and Conyers to begin to exercise their impeachment powers, the odds they’ll exercise other inherent powers of Congress may go up. But how is having the House Judiciary Committee becoming an Impeachment Committee preventing the rest of the House and the Senate from getting its work done? Especially if the HJC were to commit to holding hearings in August, when the rest of Congress will be out of town.