The other day Roy at Alicublog had a post up examining certain of the yappings about Terror and The Mohommadan Menace emanating from the cesspit known as The Corner. Roy specifically pointed to an exchange between Michael Ledeen and Mark Steyn where the pair compete with each other to heap scorn upon new British Prime Minister Gordon Brown for his foolish remarks to the effect that “Islam” and “terrorist” are not in fact synonyms. Both agree with fellow lunatic Victor David Hanson that this is a Bad Idea because it reeks of
the leisure of political-correctness that results in demonization of those who use wire-taps, detention facilities—and war—to stop jihadism.
And if that bit of demented gibberish isn’t enough for you, Hanson has more (these guys never run out):
So we know the script to come, but, like Oedipus, can’t stop it: more uncovered plots, an occasional terrorist near miss, and then finally a big bomb that kills hundreds.
And at that point, it gets Orwellian — what will a UK do if the perpetrators were suspected of residence at one time in Pakistan, Iran, or Syria? Or had financing and sanctuary provided by an Arab state? Surely not send in the gunboats or rely on the mayor of London for a stiff upper-lip.
What’s funny about this (apart from the ramming together of Oedipus and Orwell, which I don’t have the space or the stomach to discuss right now) is that there is in fact precedent for an Evil Arab state financing terrorism in the UK. That state was Libya, which in the 1970s and 1980s supplied the Provisional IRA with rifles and plastic explosives. (It was the Semtex that was most significant). The arms shipments stopped after the capture of the Eksund in 1987 — the ship that was carrying about a third of the total PIRA order. The events leading up to the interception of this shipment were complex, but they involved, basically, good intelligence and police work: not, you will note, “war.” “Wire-taps and detention facilities” may have been involved; and who would complain about their usage, if that usage is in accordance with a due respect for civil liberties? (Something the British did not always carefully observe, to say the least — and always to their great cost and embarrassment.)
Indeed, the lessons of Northern Ireland and the complex, tortuous peace process over the past several decades would seem to militate against precisely the kind of approach to the problem of terrorism advocated by the Corner-boys — which may be why they are so resistant to learning these lessons. Look at this bit of madness from Steyn:
Thanks to the IRA, the British have the best counter-terrorism police in the western world. However, for that very reason, they’re looking at it through an obsolete template. MI5, the Special Branch and all the rest think it’s the 1970s all over again – that the bad stuff can be held down to what Her Majesty’s Government used to call, somewhat cynically, “an acceptable level of violence” – ie, every so often a few people will be blown to pieces in railway stations and shopping centers, and it’s awfully bad luck if you happen to be one of them, old chap, but for everyone else the problem will be small and containable.
The difference is the shifting facts on the ground – the demographic weakness that leads to elderly Englishmen receiving geriatric care from Iraqi doctors straight out of Baghdad Medical School. The IRA’s campaign took place among a largely static population. One could make generally safe extrapolations about the likelihood of holding things down to an “acceptable level”. But in the same three decades as Northern Ireland’s “Troubles”, hitherto moderate Muslim populations in south Asia and elsewhere were radicalized by the Wahhabist export drive; and Islam became the principal source of population growth in every major English city.
Why the British would think it is the “1970s all over again” by treating the Muslim Menace now like it did the IRA threat back then is rather a mystery. What the British actually did in the 1970s as opposed to what they did in Steyn’s imagination is rather different. That would be internment (the Malkin Solution, heh):
The final straw, which escalated the violence to an insurgency, was the 1971 introduction of Internment without trial by the government of Northern Ireland. Using legislation from the Special Powers Act, Stormont introduced interment in August of 1971, with 342 men picked up in the first dawn raids. Since the British Army was instructed to carry out the Internment raids, they then became the focus of Catholic anger and demonstrations. The most famous of these anti-Internment demonstrations resulted in the Bloody Sunday killings in Derry in January 1972, when British solders fired into the Catholic crowd, killing thirteen people (Rowthorn and Wayne 1988, 42). By March of that year, the British government had dissolved Stormont (to rule directly from Westminster), Internment was in full swing with the implementation of the ‘Diplock Courts’, and the IRA had reconstituted itself fully by providing defence from police and Protestant paramilitaries to Catholic areas. The Troubles, which have lasted thirty years to date – resulting in thousands of deaths and millions of Pounds of damage – moved on that fateful morning from small-scale clashes to a full-blown sectarian conflict.
The historical evidence is quite clear that while it may be satisfying to Get Tough from the Perch of Punditry, draconian approaches simply have not worked in the past and will not work in the future. This is particularly the case when the authorities have poor intelligence about the communities on the receiving end of the harsh measures, as was the case with the British in NI in 1971: indeed, the IRA leaders of the time welcomed and in fact tried their best to promote internment, as they knew well that nothing would so quickly or effectively politically radicalize Northern Irish Catholics behind the nationalist cause.
One is left with the conclusion that either those gleefully advocating repressive measures are deeply misinformed, or they just like spouting off in a warlike fashion. Either way, what they advocate just does not work.
Related posts:
- Another menace on our borders
- Late Night: The Great Muppet Menace, Or, Ten Tiny Trotskys on the Telephone Talking about DESTROYING AMERICA
- Late Night: Gays Seize Ice Cream; Puppies Next to Fall to Homosex Menace?
- How the UK Military Lifted Their Gay Ban
- You Can’t Chew Meat Unless You Have Some Teeth – Jerusalem Evictions Continue





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zed?
Perhaps having things work isn’t what they want?
It is a pity that anyone takes these hate-mongers seriously.
Bob in HI
Apropos hate-mongerers, take a look at this for a spot of healing.
Shows just how shameful the Malkins/Coulters/Steyns et al are.
oh dear. I should have known that anything starting out quoting Victor Davis Hanson could not come out well. The whole problem-solving approach of literally or figuratively punching someone in the nose or twisting their arm or throwing them in the dungeon has always baffled me. It always works the first time because people will do what you want to get you to go away, but you don’t get much return business and I have never observed the long term consequences to be sanguine. But we humanoids keep on tryin’ it.
Good evening all.
Amazing what some people come up with and pass off as truth.
FearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFear
We are at war with MidEastAsia and have always been at war with MidEastAsia.
FearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFearFear
Warmongers. Bloodthirsty warmongers and absolute moral cowards to boot.
-GSD
Oh, and re: 5, if you are so moved, please leave a note. The writers get so few comments, and I know from talking to some of them that it is tremendously encouraging to them when people comment on their posts.
dakine01 @ 7
I think I know the next line to that one.
Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra
Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra Terra
Jailed conscientious objector hits out against Libby clemency
A veteran who spent 14 months in prison for filing a conscientious objector application against redeployment to Iraq has spoken out against the commutation of Scooter Libby’s sentence by President Bush.
“I was imprisoned for 14 months after trying to apply for conscientious objector status after seeing the reality of the Iraq war,” Kevin Benderman, who had to serve his sentence at a prison 3,000 miles from home, said.
Kevin Benderman had served as an army mechanic for 10 years when he developed moral and religious objections to the war in Iraq, after serving there in 2003, and refused to deploy there again. After seeing scenes of devastation in Iraq, and through his readings of both the Bible and the Qu’ran, Kevin Benderman filed an application for conscientious objector status on 28 December 2004.
He was then sentenced to 15 months’ imprisonment at a court martial.
I bet these guys never mentioned how much of the money for those supplies on the Eksund was supplied by people in the US. (No, I don’t know how much, either, but my understanding is the PIRA would have been a lot less well armed without help from this side of the water.)
Thers: “One is left with the conclusion that either those gleefully advocating repressive measures are deeply misinformed, or they just like spouting off in a warlike fashion. Either way, what they advocate just does not work.”
You neglect two other options: that the machinery of war, the internments, the bloodshed, and the defense *contracts* are profitable for them, or that in the case where the opposition prevents them from making a profit, these methods serve the combined purposes of payback, warning to others, nationalist revenge fantasy fulfilment, and jingoistic rally call.
The difference is the shifting facts on the ground – the demographic weakness that leads to elderly Englishmen receiving geriatric care from Iraqi doctors straight out of Baghdad Medical School.
Of course, there were no Irish in England during the IRA terror so they could be easily spotted!
The question of how these people can be so consistent in being wrong and immoral on every issue is one that seems to need an appeal to the supernatural.
Evening, all.
Many thinking British people will tell you that one of the things that finally dragged the IRA to the negotiating table was that their funding dried up after 9/11. Seems that the old adage about one man’s terrorist being another man’s freedom fighter came home to roost.
Can anybody point to impartial evidence to prove or disprove this interesting theory?
TexB @ 10
BATMAN!!!
The words “muslim menace” are so disturbing on so many levels.
Also, sorry for the OT news link at # 11.
TexB @ 17
I agree. It isn’t fun living among fascists.
I bet these guys never mentioned how much of the money for those supplies on the Eksund was supplied by people in the US.
Oh, that was pretty much a donation from Qaddafi.
Comments from anybody from Europe with direct knowledge of the Troubles? UK press has been generally happy with Brown’s response.
The common philosophy that unites these people is “elimininationism”. The “nuke’m and let Allah sort them out crowd. The fundie preachers, Lieberman, Podoretz and the rest of the crowd. I think the concept is programed in our “lizard brains” they just feed the beast. Orcinus had a post on this a couple of years ago.
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2…..-game.html
Big talkin tough guys. I think it would be a safe bet that they never actually were involved in any physical confrontation situations in their whole lives going back to junior high or the sandbox. They probably sent their minions to do their dirty work. Makes me think of Fargus & gang in A Christmas Story.
rootless2 @ 14
Except for all the Irish guys I knew working on the railway. And that my brother knew. And the ones in the pub. And my brother-in-law’s dad. And the ones my dad knew in his construction job. And 2/3 of the population of Kilburn.
No, hardly any Irish in London at all during the ’70’s & 80’s. ;)
Steyn is in the bag.
Have pen, will write.
Who will rid me of this meddlesome propagandist ?
*crossing fingers*
/you thought of this too
i lived in london during “the troubles.” there were signs in public places advising people to report suspicious packages, but you didn’t have to travel on airplanes without shampoo
smarter, braver, better
No, hardly any Irish in London at all during the ’70’s & 80’s. ;)
–
Exactly. The cops saw a redhead, and boom, into the slammer. Easy as pouring Bushmills down your throat.
Similarly, Al Qaeda is a far more dangerous military threat than a Nazi army so far away over the immense channel.
No there is no question, but that traditions like habeus corpus, kept during the last few summertime centuries of untroubled idyllic english happiness must go into the dustbin of history now that the World Faces An Existential Threat.
Lahoma. I know you are looking here. I will be in Tahlequah before the sun is there.
I do not like bashing of anyone’s religion.
Neo-cons yearn for dictatorship
Like evangelicals yearn for the apocalypse
and pundits yearn for a strong Daddy to make
them behave.
It’s a convergence of revolting fantasies.
wtf @ 25
As a native Londoner who also lived through the 70’s & ’80’s, I think one major difference is that my generation was raised by people who had experienced the Blitz. When you’ve been bombed day & night, and subjected to attack by cruise & ballistic missiles for six years, some malcontents with a car bomb is pretty small beer. As my mother used to say “When your number’s up, your number’s up.” I believe this to be true of much of Europe.
When you realise that you’re statistically much more likely to be killed in a car crash than a terrorist attack, you can regain your perspective. Unfortunately there are those in this country who have more to gain by instilling a Pavlovian pants-shitting response in the population, any time the words “terra” or “Muslim” are mentioned. Hence the conflation.
“That state was Libya, which in the 1970s and 1980s supplied the Provisional IRA with rifles and plastic explosives. “
Financed by the US Irish Catholics? We know where the money came from as…
TexB @ 11
Worth reading and clicking on the links to see the project Kevin and his wife are creating in Georgia. They’re creating a seed project for the re-entry of the veterans back into a civilian life that will give them a viable future. Thanks TexB.
OT..but the pro-family party is at it again..the Navy is increasing at sea time for sailors. The new rotation will be 5years at sea/3years on shore.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/07…..ty_070705/
rootless2 @ 26
Indeed. The Bollocks index is at an all-time high; Complete, Total and Utter Bollocks. Only Martial Law can save us now.
PeteCO @ 30
It really is rather ludicrous since so many of us grew up knowing that the USSR had enough missles pointed at us to destroy us ten times over (at least) for almost fifty years.
I think I heard Larry Johnson on Countdown last week saying that there have been roughly fifty thousand killed in acts of terror since the ’70s. contrasted with the fifty million or so killed during WWII.
I even got one of my semi wing-nut friends to agree that it was a bit ludicrous to be caving in to the fear of a bunch of folks hiding in caves.
Many thinking British people will tell you that one of the things that finally dragged the IRA to the negotiating table was that their funding dried up after 9/11. Seems that the old adage about one man’s terrorist being another man’s freedom fighter came home to roost.
Well, to a degree. But it’s worth pointing out that the situation was quite complicated before 9/11 — the “IRA” or at least Sinn Fein had been in one form or another at “the negotiating table” since the late 1980s. The peace process made funding difficult in and of itself; when Gerry Adams visited the States at Bill Clinton’s invite, one of the conditions was no fundraising, so Adams snubbed Noraid.
The subject of the IRA’s finances is murky. But I’d say it was more the post 9/11 political difficulties more than the financial ones that put the writing on the wall.
A Cooper has a rerun on right now called “On the Edge of Disaster”. The beginning is a guy talking about
wait for it. . . . .
wait for it. . . . .
TERROR.
s c a r y
Get your Redstate diapers here.
Great for those unexpected moments of bedwetting and asscrapping at the first sign on a non-Anglo.
-GSD
Laura Doty @ 9
I’m afraid I’m too obtuse to accurately translate snark, but I meant no offense at all to the poster. Thers, please forgive. I didn’t mean that the post didn’t turn out well, I meant that Victor Davis Hanson is totally full of shit. He publishes regularly in our local newspaper and while his credentials say he is a historian, after reading him I inevitably conclude that he grew up on a different planet from where I did. And my overall comment was meant to be in support of not taking draconian measures because they usually backfire big time..aside from the fact that they are wrong.
A quick OT. But another sign of a growing sensible backlash to years of Reaganism, Clintonism and Bushism.
Polling shows broad agreement about income gaps.
Link.
-GSD
rxbusa @ 39
Edit time? I think you meant not to quote me…..?
Steve @ 21
I like this Orcinus post a lot.
Ot but if anyone interested Al gore on cnbc now.
Thers, please forgive.
No apology necessary. No worries!
My Mother, God rest her soul, was from Scotland, and was Scot-Catholic. And a Separatist. And I am a Catholic. I am in tune with my Mother’s views. My late father was a Cherokee. I am also in tune with his views.
re 41: okay i’m way confused now.
dakine01 @ 35
.
It really is rather ludicrous since so many of us grew up knowing that the USSR had enough missles pointed at us to destroy us ten times over (at least) for almost fifty years.
I was more scared when Reagan deployed cruise missiles on British soil. We all thought he was trying to provoke the Soviets.
triciawrites @ 43
;0)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 27
sorry for OT and intrusion on message. It was just such a pretty poem I couldn’t resist….
PeteCO @ 47
Chimpy is trying to provoke Putin. Poor Chimpy, Putin won’t blink like the Democrats and the media.
-GSD
Great essay, Thers!
But, according to Dr. Yair Sharan, it may already be too late. Better to eliminate ALL potential Islamofascists immediately, rather than face nanoterrorism delivered by robots and fanatics unable to stop their own actions because of {{{mind control}}} –
Most bizarre of all his predictions is “the recruitment of huge numbers of suicidal candidates – human bombs – by mind control techniques”.
Brain chip implants could create a more obedient servant than conventional techniques like hypnosis: “Imagine that this suicide bomber is remote controlled and cannot give up, even if he wants,” warned Sharan.
This might be some way off, though – Sharan estimated it would be more than 10 years. Within five years, however, we might be faced with terrorists armed with powerful new explosives delivered by robot. Even remote controlled toys might be used to deliver dangerous payloads into crowded places like supermarkets, he said.
Some of these payloads, also conceivably within five years, would be constructed using radical nanotechnology that could produce something called the MOAB, or Mother of All Bombs. Nanotechnology, which is made using components one billionth of a metre across, might also give terrorists the means to release malicious nanobots into people’s bloodstreams.
Where’s Slim Pickens when we need him?
GSD @ 50
I think Putin told him this past weekend in Kennebunkport what the result would be if we bombed Iran. And Chimpy was told something he didn’t want to hear like “If you do this, we bomb you.”
Mary McCurnin @ 37
More proof that most of the media are terrorists. Tense correct? ‘Course not OK.
My God. Nanobot suicide bombers. Who will make the teeny, tiny vests?
-GSD
Ed*ard Teller @ 51
Where’s Kurt Vonnegut when we need him? Nanobots, forsooth! While we burn up the earth we worry about such things.
GSD @ 54
teeny tiny brained peoples.
What ever happened to that kid who crashed a plane into a Florida building after 9/11? Wasn’t that some kind of mind control thingee?
Laura Doty @ 4
Laura, thanks for that.
Here’s that story from 1-2002:
TAMPA, Florida (CNN) — A note written by the 15-year-old boy who crashed a Cessna into a Tampa office building indicated he supported Osama bin Laden and that the act was deliberate, authorities say.
“We have heard, in talking with some people, that he often mentioned being of Arab descent and we’re following up on that,” Holder said. “I believe his father was part Arab, I’m not exactly sure, but we are checking that out.” Holder said he believed the teenager had no contact with his father.
New Thread:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..more-10142
Didn’t know it either!
Where’s Slim Pickens when we need him?
Oh my, yes! And where is Peter Bull to terrify us with the words “doomsday shroud?” (Maybe that young fella who played Pickens’s navigator can pinch hit.)
If Kubrick had tried to use some of the screeds of our day in his movies, he’d have been slammed for too-crude exaggeration.
Excuse me? it GETS “Orwellian”!!!???
Can someone tell these fuckwads that it’s BEEN Orwellian, since bush and the petrohundts cranked up their bullshit-and-snakeoil factory, going on 5 years ago?
Trying to put us on a perpetual war footing is precisely what Orwell depicted the government doing, in “1984″.
Are they worried about “doublethink”?
Well just glom onto this: When the attacks on our troops increase, and their casualties increase (as they have in the past three months) that means the insurgents are losing and getting desperate.
The corollary of which, of course, is that if the attacks go down, that means “the bad guys” are winning.
If they stop completely, that means they’ve won. And george bush lost; and can we impeach him THEN, for “losing”???
I think Orwell talked about “newspeak” in “1984″, but if he was alive today, I think he would have listened to bush as he yesterday tried to wrap his own personal clusterfuck, in the sacred shroud of Washington crossing the Delaware, when he said that “Mayhem-and-Carnage-R-us, Inc.”, is a sister corporation of the american war for independence, and then he would have written about “shitspeak”.
What is most galling here is that Rudy Giuliani helped the IRA to raise funds in the US for years.
Rudy didn’t help the IRA directly of course, instead he attended fundraisers for NORAID which as any fool knows was an IRA front.
Nor was Rudy averse to talking to terrorists if there was votes in it for him. Rudy even gave Gerry Adams a humanitarian award while Adams was still planting bombs in shopping malls. Look up Crystal Apple and Gerry Adams on Google.
Thatcher chose confrontation in Ulster, for the usual reasons that sound so noble and heroic to fools. I have no time for Blair at all now (I am English, though I live in Japan), but he has genuinely achieved something in Ulster by avoiding the temptation for ‘heroic’ confrontations – he speaks in terms of confrontation where Islamic terrorists are concerned because out of vanity, I suspect, he cannot bring himself to admit that he has been disastrously wrong and prefers inconsistency and hypocrisy.
“Thanks to the IRA, the British have the best counter-terrorism police in the western world.”
Hahahahahahahaha!
Okay. You all know, right, that an MI5 agent ran the Omagh branch of the IRA for, what, like 15 years?