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	<title>Comments on: Self Evident Truths . . . And A Conspiracy to Obstruct Justice</title>
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		<title>By: The Oracle</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799660</link>
		<dc:creator>The Oracle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 02:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799660</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;After the criminality of the Nixon years and his resignation in disgrace, our representatives in Congress stepped up and sought “to provide new Guards” for our lives, our liberty and our pursuit of happiness.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The FISA law enacted in 1978 was one of these. The illegal surveillance of U.S. citizens by the Nixon administration was presumably addressed, with FISA specifically stating that the FISA court was the court of last resort and that all surveillance activities required a warrant from the FISA court.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The criminals in the Bush administration from the beginning had to trash this law meant to protect U.S. citizens from ego-mad tyrants like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Libby, Addington and so many other un-American Bush officials. And the Republicans controlling Congress at the time let them get away with it.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Luckily, Democrats gained control (though tenuous) of Congress again in early 2007. In November 2008, hopefully, Democrats will expand their control of Congress and once again begin to right the wrongs of the hard-core, un-American right-wingers who’ve once again usurped our democracy and endangered the lives, the liberty and the pursuit of happiness of all the rest of us.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”</p>
<p>After the criminality of the Nixon years and his resignation in disgrace, our representatives in Congress stepped up and sought “to provide new Guards” for our lives, our liberty and our pursuit of happiness.</p>
<p>The FISA law enacted in 1978 was one of these. The illegal surveillance of U.S. citizens by the Nixon administration was presumably addressed, with FISA specifically stating that the FISA court was the court of last resort and that all surveillance activities required a warrant from the FISA court.</p>
<p>The criminals in the Bush administration from the beginning had to trash this law meant to protect U.S. citizens from ego-mad tyrants like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Libby, Addington and so many other un-American Bush officials. And the Republicans controlling Congress at the time let them get away with it.</p>
<p>Luckily, Democrats gained control (though tenuous) of Congress again in early 2007. In November 2008, hopefully, Democrats will expand their control of Congress and once again begin to right the wrongs of the hard-core, un-American right-wingers who’ve once again usurped our democracy and endangered the lives, the liberty and the pursuit of happiness of all the rest of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799362</link>
		<dc:creator>Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799362</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Quaker Girl @163,&lt;br /&gt;
  Succinct and well put.&lt;br /&gt;
Their avowed ideals were eloquently stated, and those ideals’ influence has been powerful.  But I still think it’s important to remain aware of their unstated motives, and I think it’s dangerous, shortsighted, and just plain boring to deify them.  They weren’t the world’s only proponents of these ideals, they seem to have taken root just fine in the empire from which we revolted.  It’s another example of American exceptionalism that we seem to believe that the world would be a totalitarian wasteland without our American founding saints.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quaker Girl @163,<br />
  Succinct and well put.<br />
Their avowed ideals were eloquently stated, and those ideals’ influence has been powerful.  But I still think it’s important to remain aware of their unstated motives, and I think it’s dangerous, shortsighted, and just plain boring to deify them.  They weren’t the world’s only proponents of these ideals, they seem to have taken root just fine in the empire from which we revolted.  It’s another example of American exceptionalism that we seem to believe that the world would be a totalitarian wasteland without our American founding saints.</p>
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		<title>By: LeftDCin 72</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799219</link>
		<dc:creator>LeftDCin 72</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:58:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799219</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;mod note: We’d be happy to discuss but let’s leave the Marc Rich lines out, ok? thanks!&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>mod note: We’d be happy to discuss but let’s leave the Marc Rich lines out, ok? thanks!<br />
</strong></p>
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		<title>By: LeftDCin 72</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799078</link>
		<dc:creator>LeftDCin 72</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799078</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-799005&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Two Dogs @ 165&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Does anyone wonder how Libby can actually be charged for obstructing justice when it has been concluded with malice that no crime was committed in the investigation Libby supposedly obstructed?  Odd, but hell let’s just lynch Libby, that makes sense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The “intent” element was not present in connection with the Armitage disclosure. You are wrong that it has been concluded  or proven that no crime was committed in connection with dislcosures of Plame’s “identity”.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; No one knows what really happened, in part, because Libby has been found guilty of obstructing the investigation by lying. If you had to prove the purported  underlying crime under investigation in order to prove the obstruction of the purported underlying crime under investigation, then all the obstructor (Libby) would have to do is prevent proof of the purported underlying crime under investigation  which is what seems to have happened or it seems a jury reached that conclusion.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; The “underlying crime” argument advanced by the pundits  is much like there is no murder without a dead body.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-799005"><em>Two Dogs @ 165</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>Does anyone wonder how Libby can actually be charged for obstructing justice when it has been concluded with malice that no crime was committed in the investigation Libby supposedly obstructed?  Odd, but hell let’s just lynch Libby, that makes sense.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The “intent” element was not present in connection with the Armitage disclosure. You are wrong that it has been concluded  or proven that no crime was committed in connection with dislcosures of Plame’s “identity”.</p>
<p> No one knows what really happened, in part, because Libby has been found guilty of obstructing the investigation by lying. If you had to prove the purported  underlying crime under investigation in order to prove the obstruction of the purported underlying crime under investigation, then all the obstructor (Libby) would have to do is prevent proof of the purported underlying crime under investigation  which is what seems to have happened or it seems a jury reached that conclusion.</p>
<p> The “underlying crime” argument advanced by the pundits  is much like there is no murder without a dead body.</p>
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		<title>By: a.h. scott</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799052</link>
		<dc:creator>a.h. scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799052</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;SERENITY’S STOOGE&lt;br /&gt;
by a.h. scott &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There he stands&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge&lt;br /&gt;
That ‘what? who me’ gaze&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge strikes again&lt;br /&gt;
From court stackin’, Brown whackin’&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge has his finger on the trigger&lt;br /&gt;
Commuting, polluting, chuckling and evading&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge decides it all&lt;br /&gt;
From wars that makes us hated&lt;br /&gt;
To political points he’s traded&lt;br /&gt;
Poor Richard, isn’t so poor at all&lt;br /&gt;
With stock ops, black ops, and laws broken galore&lt;br /&gt;
Georgie Porgie, lying left and right&lt;br /&gt;
How can you sleep with yourself at night?&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge, so calm in the storm&lt;br /&gt;
From Gulf to Gulf, everything he touches goes wrong&lt;br /&gt;
Privilege is yours from the executive building&lt;br /&gt;
No matter how corrupt your crew is,&lt;br /&gt;
The terror blanket you constantly wrap yourself in&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge, you should resign&lt;br /&gt;
And take the Duke of Darkness with you,&lt;br /&gt;
So America can shine again&lt;br /&gt;
Serenity’s Stooge exit stage far right &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;=====================&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SERENITY’S STOOGE<br />
by a.h. scott </p>
<p>There he stands<br />
Serenity’s Stooge<br />
That ‘what? who me’ gaze<br />
Serenity’s Stooge strikes again<br />
From court stackin’, Brown whackin’<br />
Serenity’s Stooge has his finger on the trigger<br />
Commuting, polluting, chuckling and evading<br />
Serenity’s Stooge decides it all<br />
From wars that makes us hated<br />
To political points he’s traded<br />
Poor Richard, isn’t so poor at all<br />
With stock ops, black ops, and laws broken galore<br />
Georgie Porgie, lying left and right<br />
How can you sleep with yourself at night?<br />
Serenity’s Stooge, so calm in the storm<br />
From Gulf to Gulf, everything he touches goes wrong<br />
Privilege is yours from the executive building<br />
No matter how corrupt your crew is,<br />
The terror blanket you constantly wrap yourself in<br />
Serenity’s Stooge, you should resign<br />
And take the Duke of Darkness with you,<br />
So America can shine again<br />
Serenity’s Stooge exit stage far right </p>
<p>=====================</p>
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		<title>By: boxer</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799020</link>
		<dc:creator>boxer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799020</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-798944&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;Dale @ 159&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is a very similar post to one I did within the week, so my apologies to those with echo sensitivity.&lt;br /&gt;
The Founding Fathers weren’t gods.  The treatment of the American colonies by the British wasn’t grossly unfair by 18th century standards. It’s American to call King George III “power-mad”, but I don’t think it was unreasonable to expect a prosperous bunch of colonists to help foot the bill for expensive military operations taken on their behalf a few years earlier during the “French and Indian War”. Americans had the highest standard of living, the highest literacy rate, and just about the highest degree of “freedom” in the entire world.  Very few white people could be called victims of tyranny, especially the highly privileged group that gathered in Philadelphia.  Even then, their motivation was truly American, it was about the money. And the Declaration wasn’t a divinely inspired Truth channelled from God through St. Thomas. It was a political document, cleverly spun.   No one in those days would dispute its real meaning:  “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that white male property-holders are entitled to certain inalienable rights, and among these are the right to treat our Negro property and Indians standing in the way of our real estate holdings however we damn well please.”  I’m as thankful as anyone that the  Declaration is interpreted more literally these days, but sometimes I think the 4th of July lump in our throat cuts off  the blood to our brain’s center for critical thought.  The American Revolution wasn’t a break with racist, genocidal, European imperialism, it was an extension of it. One of the True American Ideals has always been  national, racially-based exceptionalism, and the last 6 years are a continuation, not an aberration.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you so much.  I find it hard to understand why so many on this site try an deify the founders.  If they (the founders) were in control right now, none of you who are: members of a minority, women, and not real property owners, would be allowed to express your ideas like this (not to mention, you wouldn’t be allowed to vote).  They were intelligent men who designed a system to best meet their needs.  Human nature doesn’t change, they weren’t better.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-798944"><em>Dale @ 159</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>This is a very similar post to one I did within the week, so my apologies to those with echo sensitivity.<br />
The Founding Fathers weren’t gods.  The treatment of the American colonies by the British wasn’t grossly unfair by 18th century standards. It’s American to call King George III “power-mad”, but I don’t think it was unreasonable to expect a prosperous bunch of colonists to help foot the bill for expensive military operations taken on their behalf a few years earlier during the “French and Indian War”. Americans had the highest standard of living, the highest literacy rate, and just about the highest degree of “freedom” in the entire world.  Very few white people could be called victims of tyranny, especially the highly privileged group that gathered in Philadelphia.  Even then, their motivation was truly American, it was about the money. And the Declaration wasn’t a divinely inspired Truth channelled from God through St. Thomas. It was a political document, cleverly spun.   No one in those days would dispute its real meaning:  “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that white male property-holders are entitled to certain inalienable rights, and among these are the right to treat our Negro property and Indians standing in the way of our real estate holdings however we damn well please.”  I’m as thankful as anyone that the  Declaration is interpreted more literally these days, but sometimes I think the 4th of July lump in our throat cuts off  the blood to our brain’s center for critical thought.  The American Revolution wasn’t a break with racist, genocidal, European imperialism, it was an extension of it. One of the True American Ideals has always been  national, racially-based exceptionalism, and the last 6 years are a continuation, not an aberration.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Thank you so much.  I find it hard to understand why so many on this site try an deify the founders.  If they (the founders) were in control right now, none of you who are: members of a minority, women, and not real property owners, would be allowed to express your ideas like this (not to mention, you wouldn’t be allowed to vote).  They were intelligent men who designed a system to best meet their needs.  Human nature doesn’t change, they weren’t better.</p>
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		<title>By: Two Dogs</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799005</link>
		<dc:creator>Two Dogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-799005</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Does anyone wonder how Libby can actually be charged for obstructing justice when it has been concluded with malice that no crime was committed in the investigation Libby supposedly obstructed?  Odd, but hell let’s just lynch Libby, that makes sense.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone wonder how Libby can actually be charged for obstructing justice when it has been concluded with malice that no crime was committed in the investigation Libby supposedly obstructed?  Odd, but hell let’s just lynch Libby, that makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Saint Brigid</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-798990</link>
		<dc:creator>Saint Brigid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-798990</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don’t think the commutation is about keeping their buddy Scooter out of jail, so much as it is about keeping Scooter from singing under the threat of jail. As the inevitability of incarceration approached, Scooter might have started negotiating with Fitzgerald. And from what I remember about his last press conference, Fitzy left that door open.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t think the commutation is about keeping their buddy Scooter out of jail, so much as it is about keeping Scooter from singing under the threat of jail. As the inevitability of incarceration approached, Scooter might have started negotiating with Fitzgerald. And from what I remember about his last press conference, Fitzy left that door open.</p>
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		<title>By: QuakerGirl</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-798984</link>
		<dc:creator>QuakerGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-798984</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Dale @ 159&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This element was also present but there were many influences on the writers outside of materialism and this is the spirit and much of the language that endures today. They fell short of their ideal but the intent supercedes the flaws of these men. That is its power.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale @ 159</p>
<p>This element was also present but there were many influences on the writers outside of materialism and this is the spirit and much of the language that endures today. They fell short of their ideal but the intent supercedes the flaws of these men. That is its power.</p>
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		<title>By: QuakerGirl</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-798953</link>
		<dc:creator>QuakerGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/04/self-evident-truths-and-lies/#comment-798953</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Steven Smith @ 151&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In response to your letter -&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The government was put in the hands of the people. We bow to tyranny or we stand and fight it. The elite few with the desire to rule rather than serve have been gaining momentum for many years. Now they are in power and installed those with the same belief in key positions. The people have been locked out of their own government. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush, Cheney and their minions are traitors to the Constitution and rule of law. They do not represent America and the Constitution any more than Jim Crow did in the south. They took one oath and that was to uphold the Constitution and they contemptuously stomped on it. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They are mere mortals and will become dust in the wind. What a terrible legacy they leave. But we the people will endure from generation to generation and we shall continue to uphold the Constitution. Those consumed with power and the lust to oppress others will come and go but we the people will continue the legacy of our forefathers.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven Smith @ 151</p>
<p>In response to your letter -</p>
<p>The government was put in the hands of the people. We bow to tyranny or we stand and fight it. The elite few with the desire to rule rather than serve have been gaining momentum for many years. Now they are in power and installed those with the same belief in key positions. The people have been locked out of their own government. </p>
<p>Bush, Cheney and their minions are traitors to the Constitution and rule of law. They do not represent America and the Constitution any more than Jim Crow did in the south. They took one oath and that was to uphold the Constitution and they contemptuously stomped on it. </p>
<p>They are mere mortals and will become dust in the wind. What a terrible legacy they leave. But we the people will endure from generation to generation and we shall continue to uphold the Constitution. Those consumed with power and the lust to oppress others will come and go but we the people will continue the legacy of our forefathers.</p>
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