Ask yourself this: suppose the Democrats had announced weeks/months ago that impeachment was “on the table,” that they were deeply concerned about the Administration’s abuse of power, that it was undermining the Constitution and the rule of law across the board. There’s lots more you could add to the list, but you get the idea.
Suppose they had also said that impeachment wasn’t what they’d planned, and they certainly didn’t need it to retake the White House in 2008 given this Administration’s failures, but that they had become so concerned about the Administration’s blatant lawlessness, and the possibility it could get even worse, that they wanted to make sure a vehicle was in place before then, if it seemed needed to prevent irretrievable damage to the country.
Suppose they had also said that the Administration’s very acts of stonewalling every investigation being conducted to uncover wrongdoing could be viewed as an abuse of power, a coverup and potential support for an article of impeachment. For example, take the inquiry into whether the Administration had been careless in protecting national security secrets and assets; were they still trying to coverup the lying? Suppose that had been the setting yesterday, just before the President slipped his commutation into the media.
1. Would the President have hesitated in his actions yesterday?
2. Would the President have paid a higher price for his actions? e.g., would the public be more likely to see yesterday’s actions as a confirmation of what the Democrats had been saying? Would that give the Republican’s pause in defending it?
3. Would Democrats be in better shape both politically and legally to respond to the White House tactics regarding subpoenas and other investigative actions?
4. Would the Democrats be in better or worse shape for making the argument that the regime does not deserve to be in office, and that hence, removing them from office was now a more legitimate question?
5. Would the Democrats be in better or worse shape for the 2008 elections?
6. Would the country be in a better position to use its constitutional mechanisms to defend the rule of law, in a way that would strengthen those mechanisms for the future?
I don’t pretend to have all the answers, and maybe I’m missing something. But can someone explain why answering these questions leads to doing nothing more than the Democrats have proposed so far?
The way I look at it, if you set the table correctly and hire a good cook who knows what to do with the ingredients given them, you’re more likely to have a feast. As I watch the Bush/Cheney regime, they look like a walking high crimes factory, a regime that every day brings into our kitchen ingredients worthy of being considered in articles of impeachment.
It happens virtually every day, but the Democrats don’t even look for impeachment recipies, while the nation is starving for justice and accountability.
(graphic courtesy Barbara)



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fitz!
zed!
UNO!
woo-hoo!
OK – sad news – but great work at the Lake
ok – dos…
hey, kirk murphy!
where ya’ been?
EPU’d
I like their style;
http://www.blah3.com/article.p…..3003617102
Scarecrow, these are the best questions I have seen yet on this topic. THANK YOU.
every few days, i say to myself “wow, that’s got to be scarecrow’s best yet”
just happened again. thank you, scarecrow.
Scuttle BusChen!
I’d like a double order of truth, please — hold the cover-ups.
scarecrow – those are hard questions!
Where’s a shrink when you need him?
It is like telling a criminal that I am not going to prosecute you for stealing the horse, robbing the bank, murdering the sherriff, but you better watch your step now, because maybe some day I might write you a strongly worded letter expressing my disturbance with your behavior.
No consequences for illegal actions means no reason to stop.
starving for justice and accountability indeed!
Righteous words. Thanks for setting them on the table.
AAAAAAaaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!
I’ve spent most of the morning trying to get away from being down on the Democratic congress for acting like spineless politicians when I know perfectly well that ALL politicians are essentially spineless.
I’ve just about made it out of the woods and then Scarecrow comes along and lays it out in the typically succinct manner about just how very devoid of backbone they truly are. Arrrrrrrrrghhhhhhh!
I personally would very much like the Dems to try to impeach shrub/darth, but I don’t think an impeachment proceeding would have caused shrub to think twice about giving Libby clemency… in fact, it probably would’ve provoked shrub into giving him an outright pardon. Shrub doesn’t respond to threats… he’d sooner rule by decree and ignore Congress altogether than give ground.. it’s just his nature. He’s obstinate. We NEED to impeach this man and his cabal, but using the threat of impeachment won’t work with him. If we strike at him, we have to strike to remove him from office… anything short of that, he’ll just pugilistically shrug off, and, if he survives, he’ll just engage in even worse misbehavior. Shrub is incorrigible.
Scarecrow these are all great questions.
I know that REP will do nothing to stop the criminal activity of Bush Co. but DEMS won’t do anything either.
They won’t because they know more people voted in MSNBC’s Paris Hilton instant poll than the Scooter Libby poll.
In the end the politicians will take care of their own because the general public won’t hold them accountable.
I wish I wasn’t so negative about this but it won’t stop me from calling the WH and all my representatives.
Good post….
Spotlight time folks.
Well said Scarecrow.
Excellent post. Exactly right. Well, we’ve got to put impeachment on the table. We the people. If the parade is large enough Pelosi et al. will join. Sure we can email/write/call our representatives, senators, the judiciary committee (and calling chimpy was fun too: 202-456-1111), but ultimately, this will have to be a movement. Well, sign me up. We need impeachment parties to talk to our friends and neighbors. We need a political movement. Ideas?
Good afternoon (morning)everyone.
Big hug/thank you to Jane for the idea of the post and for the picture. I assume it’s from her home economics class a few years back. I took shop.
Interesting questions, huh? Like to know what overs thinks.
Meanwhile, the reactions keep pouring in. This from Reuters.
Not only do we need to set the table for impeachment, we need to preemptively warn people that any terrorist attacks that might happen during that process are of suspect origins and could well be ‘home grown.”
I wouldn’t put it past the Bush Crime Family to bomb Americans in order to divert attention from their illegal doings.
I don’t know the answers either, but Scarecrow sets the framing just brilliantly. Answering these questions should bring a few more Judiciary members to the table. I think you’re on to something here.
There has to be a way to reframe the impeachment debate, to the point where something so lacking in the Dems policy to date is set in motion.
I have written to my congressman, Barney Frank, asking him to lead the way to impeachment proceedings for Vice President Cheney and President Bush. He can throw in Gonzales if it will help get cooperation from the DOJ.
This “impeachment is not on the table” does not pass the sniff test, I told him.
Someday, people will look back to this time to see what those in power did to restore democracy in the US.
I am watching, the world is watching to see what you will do, Congressman Frank, to remove the most corrupt administration in the nation’s history.
I expect action from Barney Frank, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry. They must LEAD or my view of them is as dim as my view of the rest. This. Is. Their. Job.
mui @ 11
Well, we actually have one, probably several. You address him as “your highness.”
You know, you should forward this over the DLC-supporters at Daily KOS.
It happens virtually every day, but the Democrats don’t even look for impeachment recipies, while the nation is starving for justice and accountability.
Beats me, Scarecrow. If there was ever a presidential administration that deserved impeachment, it’s this one. I think it’s just their way of absolving themselves of the responsibility for doing something really unpleasant and potentially risky to their own individual careers. You can bet that quite a few of them have skeletons in their own closets, and if there’s anyone in government who knows about them, it’s Dick Cheney.
I can’t decide what impeachment would bring. In the end, acquittal, but while Clinton’s acquittal exposed the GOP hypocrisy for what it was, it’s not clear how Bush’s or Cheney’s would get spun – and remember hwo would be out there doing the spinning.
Here is what I do know (and what I wrote this morning):
I don’t trust that we have honest purveyors of information – those who, like John Dean, will say, of course these guys should be impeached – this is exactly what the founders had in mind.
We’ve got Ann Coulter, and we need Edward R. Murrow.
Isn’t there impeachment legislation in the CA legislature? If we can get a major state to draft articles (CA, IL?) and forward them to the judiciary committee, under Jefferson’s rules, would that spur the House into action?
1. Yes, That would mean paying attention.
2. No, the 28%’ers would stand by their man.
3. No, the WH would still thumb their collective noses at Congress and most of the Republican Congressional members would let them.
4. Better shape, the Dems would have another obvious point to point to.
5. Better again, see 4.
6. No, the WH would still thumb their collective noses at the people and most of the Republican Congressional members would let them.
And in related news, a truck containing 16 million doses of hydr*c*d*ne (V*cod*n) has been stolen near Chicago. Street value $32 Million to $80 Million
White House spokeman said “Don’t worry, be happy!”
~~~ModNote: Content edited to clear filters.~~~
Mutant Poodle @ 27
Today the repubs won’t behave honorably, but even the dems won’t put country and the constitution ahead of their fears.
.
Then dems and progressives in your state need to better organize, recruit, and elect some representatives who are not spineless.
Argh.
For 1, I meant that ‘Yes the WH would NOT have hesitated’.
Scarecrow @ 24
I’m counting one. I think there’s a second missing. Hmmmm.
Lets see now what happens when a government is a wholly own subsidiary of major corporations and an on going criminal conspiracy to over through the constitution, and the rule of law. Well we could prosecute them, but what they own the DOJ, Impeach them well that would mean someone would have to force congress to do it’s job. Hmm maybe we the the people could just pardon them for the rest of their terms in office.
To answer your first question, though, Scarecrow, I’d have to think that Bush would have done this anyway. It was in his self-interest to keep Scooter quiet, and that wasn’t likely to happen if Scooter ended up in jail. The only difference would be in how Congress responded.
From downstairs:
Deep in EPU land but…
A few commenters have bemoaned the futitlity of this entire process (calling Reps/Sens is a waste of time, Fitz shoulda gone for Big Time, Dems, Repubs are all corrupt) much to Christy’s consternation.
Well, the wheels of change and justice turn slowly. Can anybody ever have imagined (gee, where have I heard that line before?) that prior to 11/7/06 that there’d be a chance in hell of a Congressional investigation, let alone talk of impeachment?
Patience, folks. Keep calling, writing, hollering. Don’t let this go away.
Give truth back.
Toatally OT but I had to laugh out loud;
first this,
http://www.towncalleddobson.com/index.php?paged=20
followed by this,
http://www.towncalleddobson.com/index.php?paged=17
oops…I know what happened…V*cod*n trapped.
sorry mods!
update: thank you!
BTW the White House line 802-456-1414 is available and they’ll put you through to the comment line. It’s a long long time ringing, just hang on and you can eventually get someone.
scarecrow, the view from your cornfield is clear and compelling – thanks so much for sharing what you see (and ask) with us.
and Old Coastie – hi back at ya! I was off at camp with teh other dirt-worshipping tree huggers.
I’m back with joy for the wild and rage for those who destroy our living planet.
Scooter, Cheney, Shrub, and Rove merely serve the great Destroyers: the megacorps.
Last week at a different Lake, I renewed my vow to defend the living world in Her service.
I ‘m delighted to work with the great people at this Lake towards that end.
The path to restoring life and breaking the megacorps’ permanent control of the people and resources of the Untied States runs straight through the destruction of the GOP and the Bushies’ rule.
It’s a great morning to overthrow the Emperor and the megacorps that direct it.
Good to be at the Lake again.
Well put Scarecrow. Sometimes “taking the high road” leads to disaster. As long as these traitorous swine are given a free rein they will continue to do as they damn well please.
When I talked with my Congressperson’s office this AM I said that she (Carol Shea Porter) must sign the Kucinich impeachment bill as it seems the only way to stop cheney/bush from stomping on the Constitution again and again.
First caw caw?
Impeachment should be on the table, if only to keep Chimp and Shooter too busy to start a war with Iran. For what it’s worth, Andrew Sullivan is wall to wall Libby on his blog. He’s so angry he could spit nails.
scarecrow – spot on, once again.
Mutant Poodle @ 27
We’ve got Keith Olbermann, special comment tonight should scald eyeballs…but what we need is someone in the public service to have a Joseph Welch moment, “Have you no decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”
McCarthy did not and that was the fact. Bush does not have a sense of decency either, but that is not the point. The point is that there was finally a nexus moment, a crucial point and a clarion sound bite whereby the rest of the free world could finally realize that there was no decency in the man, and never would be.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much:
“A Decision Made Largely Alone” …http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/02/AR2007070202060.html?hpid=topnews
This article says, Bush “limited his deliberations over commuting the prison term of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby to a few close aides, opting not to consult with the Justice Department and rebuffing efforts by friends to lobby on Libby’s behalf, administration officials and people close to Bush said yesterday.”
Yet,
“An unanswered question last night was Vice President Cheney’s role in advocating leniency for his former chief of staff and alter ego.”
There are a set of talking points that are going around to obscure that this is obstruction of justice. They all echo the nonsensical notion that political considerations, or here, his famed lonely stubbornness, factored into Mr. 28%’s decision making, not scrotum-tightening fear of legal jeopardy. These articles purport that the “conservative base” were eager for Libby’s pardon, despite that Republican office holders and candidates have remained mostly “conspicuously silent” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/03/AR2007070300981.html?hpid=topnews ). This article also intones that, “In many respects, Bush’s statement explaining his decision suggests a classic political compromise” (I was initially suckered by this), with true believers pretending to believe that Libby is still getting a raw deal because he hasn’t been pardoned and cleared of wrongdoing outright.
He was in a hurry to commute, not pardon: Why else bypass DOJ, why else ignore the prescription that Libby begin serving time. Those have to go into our talking points.
Crazy Horse @ 22
I think the only way to create a sense of crisis beyond the halls of Congress… a smoking gun scandal to subvert domestic civil liberties, large-scale protests combined with a heavy-handed respond from the shrubbies, something… without that kind of catalyst to take this issue beyond the Beltway, I don’t see a serious impeachment effort…. and if we did convince Dems to start one, the propaganda machine will just respond by diverting press attention with blood-curdling new terror threats (a dirty bomb plot a day, probably). We need a catalyst…
I think the answer to the questions are in the negative. Impeachment and/or criminal charges against these people has to be driven from below; not from the Democratic leadership.
If, as is being spouted by the puerile MSM, that Bush is so low in the polls that he now feels “liberated”, the people will start demanding impeachment. I hope, if the little psychopath feels that he can stop pretending to be sane, that the shit will really hit the fan.
kirk murphy @ 41
I hope it was a seriously pagan affair. Because you know some of us would get some vicarious pleasure from that.
This is what I’ve been saying to people who say that it’s a waste of time or resources to impeach Bush. The problem is that Bush has already shown contempt for the law and is abusing power under the Constitution left and right. Impeachment should not be pursued because it’ll help the political fortunes of the Democrats. It should be pursued because the President is breaking the law.
I ask at MyDD: what resources are being saved by ruling out impeachment entirely. What can the Democrats accomplish, given that they are afraid of holding Bush to his job description and are unwilling to pursuing punishing him for breaking the law? Democrats apparently cannot stop the war in Iraq. Hey – Bush has a veto and will use it! That same veto will stop any moderately progressive legislation; that is, presuming it could get through the Senate, which it cannot. So, legislatively, the wafer-thin majority in the Senate means that this Congress will accomplish almost nothing.
But, I am told, the Democrats have subpoena power and can investigate Republicans! Oh, can they? And how is that going? We have Republicans flatly refusing to testify on Capitol Hill in the USA case. So, Leahy’s remedy is to…refer the Contempt of Congress charges to Abu Gonzales? Well, that’ll fix their wagon!
The problem with Pelosi’s statement is that it was compltely pre-emptive and unnecessary. Saying “we won’t impeach the president” means “we won’t impeach the president, no matter what he does”. It just opens the doors to two more years of bad behavior. It was irresponsible to do this before any investigations had started.
Weak. Very weak. Get used to that word, as we’ll be hearing a lot of it next year. Any Democrat who cannot stand up to Bush is going to be asked how he’ll stand up to Vladimir Putin who, like Bush, does not have the best interests of Americans in mind, but unlike Bush, is a fairly intelligent man.
It’s a big world out there and I worry that Democratic leaders don’t really grasp the long-term implications of their cowardice.
kirk murphy @ 41
Hope you were there for the full moon. More power to you.
linnen @ 29
wrt 2 — I don’t care about the 28% crowd; it’s tthe next 20% or so that might pause.
wrt 3 — same answer; the WH is hopeless; but they are losing friends who understand how toxic they are.
wrt 6 — use it of lose it; if the Dems say, impeachment is a legitimate constitutional means for checks/balances, that stand alone will help preserve it for the future, even if the clock runs out. In law, you have to raise a defense to preserve on appeal; if you don’t use muscles, they atrophy, etc, etc.
TexB @ 33
I go back and forth on whether it’s fear or practicality, and I don’t mean that as a dirty word.
Years ago, someone did me waaay wrong, and my thought was that I’d like to kick the sh*t out of him. And I probably could have.
But it wouldn’t have done me any good, and perhaps some harm.
I think that, if you’re not going to get rid of Bush or Cheney (and you’re not), then, sadly, impeachment becomes a political issue. If it helps the Dems politically, then go for it all out. If they can’t figure out a way to make it work for them politically (this is the Democratic party, remember?) then position yourselves as best as possible, keep the powder dry, and try and crush – and I do mean crush – the GOP in 2008.
I am very conflicted about this, because I think Bush and Cheney should be booted. But I also think it’s very important that no Republican get near the oval office for quite some time after these bozos leave.
Just like a wimpy liberal – always looking at the nuance.
From Mutant Poodle
…one that wonders if our democracy can survive this assault. The difference is that today, those who lie to excuse the inexcusable are heralded figures in our public discourse, and not just Ronald Ziegler.
I agree, and this is a huge concern. All the more reason to given them an issue to think about — and which the blogs can pound them on?
I want my party to try the ‘courage thing’. They might actually like it.
I want to hear the words “obstruction of justice” uttered by every Congressional Democrat and presidential candidate, and see the words “obstruction of justice” posted on every representative and senator’s website.
The elimination of jail time is a less important facet of this story (excepting the likely fact that Libby said “no jail time and pay my bills or I’ll talk”). The prevention of Libby testifying according to the rules of commutation is the rub. Along with the refusal to answer Congressional subpoenas, this act finishes off the wall.
So, here we are, Democrats. Rove has challenged your reason for being, 33 years after Nixon’s articles and resignation, nine years after a failed coup d’etat. This is the show. What’ll it be? Will you let these crimes stand unchallenged, and rend the party, which is what Rove wants? Or will you unite the country and the party behind a fierce, unflinching investigation in defense of the Constitution, and act on those findings?
Bush doesn’t have a 28 percent approval among Democrats. He has a 28 percent approval rating among all American voters. You’re in the batter’s box, and the president is meat. Will you take a cut on behalf of the Constitution and the rule of law?
Has Gore commented yet?
I’ve not been an impeachment fan, primarily because I can’t count to 17 (the number of Republican Senators / Joe Liebermen you’d need) to convict and remove.
But as I tried to impress upon my congressman’s staffer this morning: even without conviction, impeachment could be a useful investigative tool in a situation like this. Impeachment simultaneously strips away executive privilege and the power of pardon. Anyone who has been witness to crimes in the WH or OVP is suddenly back on the hook very personally, and King George won’t be able to help them.
Millineryman’s postcard for your elected officials
If nothing else, we can use this against all the GOoPers who accuse the Democrats of being ’soft on crime’ and want the sentencing guidelines tightened up (read: longer sentences).
johnSwifty @ 47
Either this is a tipping point, a la the Saturday Night Massacre (which was so revealing of Nixon’s character) or it isn’t. Becuase the linkage is indirect, I think it’s tougher. We need people (and maybe Keith can pull it off) who can make the argument simple and sticky.
Murrow, of course, had a massive audience – Keith is great, but he’s preaching to the choir.
CNN has a story coming up on anger on the blogs about Libby!
I’m not at all sure we have Democracy in this country anymore. We have lobbyists though.
scarecrow;
ding ding ding
whoever has her ear needs to get that exact text off to pelosi
Press all over SnowJob
LS @ 62
There’s anger on the blogs? Getta outta town, CNN.
How about substituting “would” for “will”. Let’s take it forward from here.
Remember the shiny objects…what are they going to do while we talk about this. What is next?
WSJ: Gates Trades the Surge for Permanent Iraq Bases
http://electioncentral.tpmcafe…..iraq_bases
I wonder what our president in exile has to say about this republic of the few, for the few, who oppress the many.
Mutant Poodle @ 53
Quite the contrary! Life is nuanced and multifaceted. It takes intelligence to see and appreciate nuance. But it takes courage to not be frozen and apathetic when the nuance threatens to overwhelm.
That is why Ronald Reagan was regarded as such a hero by so many. He made it ok to take ol’ Uncle Ronny’s word and not worry about the nuance; and cowards flocked to that opportunity like shit through a goose.
Don’t shy away from the nuance. Embrace it, find a way through it. It is a concept of ’slipperiness’ as the eastern philosophies describe it. As it attempts to elude you, so must you slide, adjust and find a way to grasp it….I’m done trying to paraphrase the I Ching now, sorry.
I am waiting for the uproar from my party.
Good stuff, scarecrow.
I especially like the fact that you lay this on the Congressional democrats as a whole, and not Nancy Pelosi. She may have made the “off the table” comment, but she did so because as the leader of the House Dems, she has to keep them together. There have no doubt been many, many closed door caucus meetings, and she knows she has the support of the caucus to only go so far.
If you want to push Nancy, you’ve got to push the reluctant Dems who are holding back. Call their district offices, find out which parades and festivals they will be at tomorrow, and let them know in person (with signs or shouts or both) exactly what you think needs to be done next week when they get back to DC.
Investigate obstruction.
Demand accountability.
Restore the Rule of Law.
If they won’t be at a parade near you, bring your signs to your local 4th of July celebration, and get your message on TV.
Perhaps something like “Down With King George — Again!”
This needs a 50 state, 435 district push, and there’s no time like tomorrow.
I’ve not been an impeachment fan, primarily because I can’t count to 17 (the number of Republican Senators / Joe Liebermen you’d need) to convict and remove.
21 Republicans up in 08. But it won’t go to trial. If the votes are there, McConnell will walk up to the oval office with a heavy heart, just like Goldwater did.
If they don’t get him out of office, they are going to be under 40 seats in the Senate. Allard’s gone already. Warner’s not raising money. Sununu is in the 20s. Collins just got a wakeup call. Smith and Coleman are in deep trouble. Ted Stevens is gonna get indicted–as may McConnell. I agree. 17 is a big number. But it looks smaller every time the president opens his mouth.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 70
You are your party.
mui @ 49
Thanks, mui!
It was a deeply and happily pagan affair – the California Witchcamp!
(mothercamp of the global network of witchcamps in the Reclaiming tradition)
(and the full moon was a delight :)
Bright Blessings!
PS – This year’s free activist witchcamp in SW Washington State (Aug 12-18) is a great way for political activists to experience witchcamps without financial obstacles.
Scarecrow @ 24
Scarecrow, thanks…
but I’m much more comfortable with plain ‘ol “Kirk”.
And when do we address the completely worthless democratic party?
i think the spineless argument is dead. when they should feel the most empowered they still act feckless and weak.
to me, all they are is the good cop for the republican bad cop. i gurantee you the democrats in office confer and discuss with thier republican counterparts a hell of lot more than they do with you or me, thier constituents.
the end game is when we get out on the streets and stop EVERYTHING.
until that happens we’re just pissing in the wind.
Cujo359 @ 36
I’m willing to concede that Bush was in a bind and had to do something. But even if he saw himself forced to do this under my scenario, I’m suggesting it would have played differently today; we need to increase the price he pays every time his undermines the rule of law.
This is hardball, and if the Dems don’t have a credible threat on the table, they’ve got no leverage against a regime that does not play by the rules and will disregard law and public to save themselves. Fine. Make it apparent.
Mutant Poodle @ 60
Too true.
johnSwifty @ 71
I embrace nuance.
Here’s the un-nuanced version: Democrats should do whatever will cause the GOP – and Bush – the most long-lasting, shrieking, personal and political pain they can inflict. If that’s impeachment, great. If it’s not, then whever it is, make it good.
I sent messages of impeachment to my great Congressman Jerry Nadler, and to my useless Senators Mr. Chuck ‘Hard Work’ Schumer and Ms. Hillary ‘I can’t wait to have Bush’s power’ Clinton.
I also wrote to Speaker Pelosi, reminding her that if Impeachment is off the table, so is Democracy.
Many thanks to Scarecrow, Christy, Jane, Marcy and the wonderful crew at FDL for fighting the good fight. Lather, Rinse, Repeat!
joe wilson on CNN…
brendan @ 74
It almost seems like we are hollering into a vacuum. Almost no word from a lot of congress critters (Yes they are back to being critters for me). And no, I don’t care what date it is!
Keith is having a special comment tonight…calling for impeachment. Loud and clear. How can we use this?
visceral, passionate impeachment screed from Rusty1776 over at DailyKos:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..194420/909
2 or 3 years ago many ‘progressives’ captured by the (D) party were all opposed to talk of full withdrawal from the already failed occupation of Iraq.
well now it is safe and acceptable to say and think that – when will it be accecptable to demand that your (D) politicians do their Constitutional duty and initiate impeachment, and credibly threaten withdrawal of support and/or active opposition if they don’t?
Thoughts on impeachment
The argument against impeachment has been that:
a) the effort would soak all energy away from the many other needed efforts of the Democratic majority, and;
b) that impeachment effort would not make it out of the House, let alone Senate.
The cost of all that impeachment effort would be that absolutely nothing (impeachment or any other effort) would be accomplished under this congress.
While this was a reasonably tenable argument early in this session–in the heady days after the ‘06 elections–it is now clear that NOTHING is making it though the Senate. The minority is successfully obstructing, and boasting about it. So the notion that this Congress is going to make progress on any substantive progressive issue is simply unrealistic. Congress has a huge case of constipation, and the site of the blockage is clear.
So, if we are doomed to pursue hopeless legislation regardless of what that legislation may be , why not tilt at the very best, most important of windmills. The one that will make us proud of the attempt, regardless of victory or defeat.
And that is the halt of executive over-reach before that amassed power can no longer be challenged by the first branch. As it stands today, each and every future president can look back at Bush’s constitutional crimes and see a GREEN LIGHT. And, just as importantly, so will future legislators. The precedent set.
I do not doubt that many democrats’ mouths are watering over what the Libby commutation means politically for the ‘08 election. Just earlier today, Christy Hardin Smith thanked Bush (albeit bitterly) for his action. On the other hand, many republicans are cheering this abuse of justice, just as they have cheered all the executive’s other abuses. And so it goes.
For the future health of the republic, savoring (or threatening with) anticipated Democratic landslides and deepening presidential poll numbers are completely irrelevant.
So I ask you–what would you rather have Congress waste its time on. Immigration and minimum wage, or the very core viability of our government as composed of three equal and independent branches.
kirk murphy @ 75
Kirk, you rock. I’ll look into it.
Peterr @ 72
These are good points. At a certain point we have to decide which Democrats we trust, and which need to be worked on. I decided a while ago that I was just going to trust Pelosi, especially this year when she bumped off Harman, supported Murtha, and went to Syria. Pelosi is with us, but she’s not omnipotent; no one is, not even Cheney.
If CNN intimates that all this anger is only being expressed or felt in the blogs, I will scream.
johnSwifty @ 78
Perhaps emails to Brian Williams, asking that NBC also carry Keith’s Special Comment at the end of his Nightly News broadcast would be in order. Keith needs to reach the folks that don’t generally check into the Countdown.
Tomthy Noah:
Glaring sophomoric Red Herring 101. SOMEONE in the chain of leaking culpably knew it, but the obstruction neutered the possibility of finding out and prosecuting the offense.
But, they’ll just sing this song ad nauseum. They’re counting on aggregate public apathy. Probably gonna work. I won’t hold my breath for Congress to act.
Depressing.
While I completely agree with the majority sentiment presented. We must be realistic about impeachment. If there were no tapes of Nixion’s conversations showing his complicity in Watergate, he would not have resigned. He MIGHT have been impeached, but he would have been acquitted. Book it that the Bush admin. has learned all the mistakes that Nixon made – complete plausible deniability for the President. We will not find a smoking gun. Impeachment with acquittal is a loss for demos. and America. It doesn’t change anything and will only be used by the right as an example of how Bush was NOT GUILTY, the opposite of what is true. However, impeachment and conviction of Cheney and Gonzo is possible and would help the country and the progressive cause. Let’s do something that might actually get results, not just complain about how we wish things were different.
Steve @ 48
Uh, Steve — I’m as “below” as it gets.
Scarecrow nails all the questions, and FirePups have good responses.
But, the bottom line is, our dem’s are as much a part of militarism, interventionism, oil racketeering, corporate racketeering, and are bought and paid for by the same sources the pub’s are.
Asking the dem’s to actually DO something about the pub’s would mean asking them to give up their power and control and priviliges.
Only people in the street singing songs and carrying signs will persuade our elected officials to snap to and think about the Constitution first, themselves second.
Great postings, all, Christy is lit up and taking it to them.
I’ve made my calls and sent my emails.
Tomorrow, I smoke, grill, and delight in the pleasures of a whirring blender with my honey and our neighbors as we share food and laughter.
Best to all, Unka Sam could USE a day off methinks . . .
Bush, Cheney, and Gonzo need to be impeached simultaneously for all of the obvious reasons. Bush can’t pardon Gonzo and Cheney, if he is being impeached. Do I have that right?
This was done under a Cheney directive. While the boy king and daddy feasted on Maine lobsters and looked into Putin’s soul on their soil. It is quite a spectacle to watch them self-destruct. Think of it as a gift to the Democrats which will bear fruit and then some in 2008.
Could this portend the continued demise of the Repug party?
This isn’t about Libby – or even Bush/Cheney. It’s about the fabric of law that binds us in a civil world. It’s coming unraveled.
To me, impeachment is only a start. At best impeachment just removes the buggers from office. Personally, I’d like to see ‘em in leg irons.
Absent a clear repudiation of her “impeachment is off the table” remark delivered sometime no later than August 1, Nancy Pelosi’s utility as Speaker of the House becomes unrecoverably compromised. As such, her legacy as Speaker will be remarkable only for its failures, and brief.
jayackroyd @ 73
this has been my point since we won the majority
the senate and congress are HATING the president right now, it’s because if HIM they lost their power, their jobs
and MORE will loose power and jobs in the next election
they WILL deal, they WILL throw the president under the bus because the president threw THEM under the bus
we NEED to deal, we need to promise them uncontested election, we need to promise them some pork to go with that
we have got to deal and get them on board
the time is runningn out, we will soon be attacking Iran, there will be martial law and civil war
then it will be too late
time for the democrats to deal and this commutation is just the means they can use to make their position clear
it will be easy for them to say;
“libby was convicted of covering the tracks of traitors, it appears the president is obstructing justice and we can only assume he was a party to that treason”
bing
BobbyG @ 90
Bobby–
it’s much worse than that. Walton reviewed the evidence, admissible and not, classified and not, and concluded that Libby’s obstruction had successfully prevented the IIPA violation from being prosecuted. That’s why he used the IIPA guidelines. The single most knowledgeable, least biased person in this whole process is Walton. And he concluded that Libby had obstructed the investigation to the extent that it could not be prosecuted.
Hence the sentence.
The sky is falling the sky is falling. It wasn’t yesterday but it is today.
I sent those opening paragraphs to Pelosi as Speaker. I also sent them to my congresscritter, with the request that he pass ti on to her personally, and also to everyone else in Congress for them to think about.
I added that I don’t want to hear any more from Republicans about Democrats being ’soft on crime’ and judges handing out lenient sentences and the sentencing guidelines not being strict enough, without Libby being hung around the necks of the GOoPers. They’ve earned it.
Well first we vent our outrage, then we plan our actions, and then we carry out the plan. Its early days yet, I have seen many fine ideas, as time passes they will turn into action. If we continue to press those in government to do their jobs, maybe more good will come out of this than we can Imagen right now.
According to The Hill, Senate Republicans may be on the verge of supporting contempt charges, should Bush thumb his nose at the Judiciary Committee subpoenas.
They are casting this mostly in the sense of “it’s got to be settled by the courts, so let’s vote for contempt and get it into court.” Still, forcing BushCo to defend itself in court can’t help but reach middle-of-the-road voters, and continue to illustrate the monarchy of King George to the nation.
The pressure on GOP Senators is growing, in so many different ways, especially those up for re-election next year.
Were it not a distraction from the fact that this is about obstruction of justice, not merely cronyism or “politics”, I’d promote Josh Marshall’s quote as a talking point: “Paris Hilton did more time than Scooter Libby.”
boxer @ 91
correct Nixion to Nixon
LS @ 62
Angry? This isn’t angry. They haven’t seen angry, yet.
impeachment sign spotted at Giants game:
http://sfist.com/attachments/s…..giants.JPG
Seriously though, I believe that we can’t.. and, frankly, shouldn’t, look to the party on this. We want them to stand up for us, yes, but until we can transform popular anger into 2 million protestors camped out on the Mall, then we, as a country, deserve this president, and, in fact, we deserve half measures from the politicians of our own party.. the president is, himself, the result of the cynical abrogation of civic engagement by Americans.
From a planning perspective, we need to find what combination of actions on our part will cause the students at our universities, the unions and everybody else to converge on DC and the streets of all of our cities.. until this happens, there’ll just be half measures from our politicians, and we have no right to expect anything else… our politicians respond to proportionate actions from their constituents.. not the other way around. In his case, a president has abrogated the rule of law and the constitution, again and again, and all we’re able to muster is a lot of letters to our senators????
… sorry to sound so obstinate about this, but I really do believe that blaming the inaction for party leadership for our own apathy isn’t productive. The corruption in the executive branch requires a proportionate response from the American people.. a crisis.. which will catalyze our elected officials to act.. this is how it always works.. or should work. And IF we can only come back and say “people will never act” .. then we deserve shrub and everything he sends our way. We need to figure out how to do this, or we’re finished.
Bush vetoing the Democratic bill to fund the troops and set benchmarks as a precondition for withdrawal.
Bush backing Gonzales despite his record of lying, incompetence, and bringing the federal justice system into disrepute.
Bush stonewalling on oversight and refusing to honor subpoenas.
Bush commuting Scooter Libby’s sentence.
All of these items show that even with a JAR in the 20s Bush is still going to ignore any restraint on his actions no matter how disastrous those actions are. We have only two courses left open to us: Impeach Bush and Cheney or wait until January 2009 and hope the country survives until then. It is the choice between being complicit in the Bush/Cheney legacy or fighting against it, even if we do not win the fight.
I agree with Cujo359, if ever there is an Administration that needs impeaching it is this one. I would add this to scarecrow’s thought. Just think of what the Republicans would have been doing at this point if the situation was reversed.
casual observer @ 85
Yes!!!
boxer @ 91
Bush has admitted to breaking the law. That’s not the issue. The issue is whether republican senators will recognize what Howard Baker recognized–that the president is a political toxin and has to be removed.
That’s all that is going on here. The democratic strategy, as Schumer outlined early this year, is let them twist, twist, slowly in the wind until they realize they have to change the course in Iraq.
I’m with Scarecrow. I think, at this point, that this is a pusillanimous position. Call for Cheney’s resignation. If Cheney doesn’t resign, start impeach hearings on Cheney. he’s in the frickin’ teens. Jurors laughed when asked if they would find Cheney a credible witness. This one is not hard.
Maybe some of Libby’s writings should be revealed to remind the “party of family values” who they so faithfully support, and Mary Matlin lets him near her children, shudder….
http://www.nerve.com/dispatche…..olitician/
jayackroyd @ 99
Yeah, but my point is that, WTFC whether Libby criminally “knew” about Plame’s covert status or not? Someone knew and acted criminally, so Noah is full of shit here in proffering that obvious, if poignant, red herring.
Peterr at 89 says:
Perhaps emails to Brian Williams, asking that NBC also carry Keith’s Special Comment at the end of his Nightly News broadcast would be in order. Keith needs to reach the folks that don’t generally check into the Countdown.
I say: Engage the press. Demand quality or let them know we will find their sponsors and complain about and/or boycott them. The press has been attacked from the the inside through buyouts. Rather than constant ridicule, engage those with the wide audience; at the same time, go after their “owners” and demand quality or else.
How many products come under GE. List them. Boycott them. List them again. We must have an independent press.
The House needs to hear articles of impeachment and vote them. There can be no claims of executive privilege there. IF in the end the rethugs block conviction, fine! Just put them on record as supporting the most corrupt administration since at least Teapot Dome. What is more likely to happen is a deal will be worked to put in a caretaker rethug VP who then becomes the P. But the messages have to be clear and concise, not complex and nuanced. These are corrupt, lying, traitorous despots who have undermined American democracy. Say it 100 times a day.
BobbyG @ 90
One thing about having a security clearance is that you tend to get mighty squirrelly whenever you get even close to something that might possibly maybe be classified. And you go back and make sure that you have a definite statement that something is not classified.
If discussing a CIA employee didn’t set off Libby’s “squirrelly” mode, then he must have been a truly awful keeper of national security secrets.
Here’s another code phrase to push — it might resonate with the 28%ers: “Why is there amnesty for Libby?”
“…while the nation is starving for justice and accountability.”
What a great line. And we really are.
If we don’t have justice and accountability, if we don’t have rule of law, what do we have?
Peterr — despite my comment to steve (who’s right), I think Pelosi is not the person to raise this because she’s in the line of succession. It must come from those below her, who are passing on what they hear from their constitutents.
Scarecrow @ 92
I disagree, you and most people who read FDL are in the upper 33%(?) who try to make reality and factual based decisions. It’s a portion of the other 67%(?) who are the below that have to start demanding action.
BTW..my GF just text msg me that someone on NPR said Libby spent less time in jail than did Paris Hilton. Maybe that is the type of simplistic message that will catch on.
Professor Foland @ 115
And Scooter was repeatedly described by witnesses at the trial (Judith Miller included) as “agitated.” Darned squirrely by the sounds of his antics in the aspens.
Bring impeachment signs to any July 4th parade you might be attending .
Scarecrow @ 107
You wouldn’t like us when we’re angry…
What is my Democratic Party trying to do? Force a third party entry?
The R’s don’t care. They own the media, and probably through the illegal wiretapping the Beltway Dems.
thelightningwill @ 124
Money talks. Boycott their sponsors.
Scarecrow @ 106
True, this is more resigned. Like the other shoe finally fell.
But now there’s a whole new set of boots getting ready for duty!
jayackroyd @ 110
Bush has not admitted to breaking the law. He has said and done things that you and I and the majority of people reading this believe are illegal. Big difference.
I am beginning to think about becoming upset with my party.
Scarecrow @ 118
Agreed, to a point.
If Pelosi is not the person to raise this now, she also wasn’t the person to have taken it off the table before. Either way, she’s in the line of succession, and if that’s a reason for keeping her mouth shut now, she should have done the same earlier.
Chuck Shumer just sent this to me:
NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW
Oh, well, tomorrow is
Independence Day— uh, Summer Dollar Daze Sale Day. MATTRESSES, WIDE-SCREEN TVs, AND CREDENZAS 60% OFF!!! OPEN TILL 10 PM!!! E-Z CREDIT!!!!!They’re counting on aggregate short attention span public apathy.
Mutant Poodle @ 122
Then it’s about time we start getting angry. Until this happens, http://blog.kievukraine.info/u…..755963.jpg (Orange Revolution), it’ll just be more of the same, regardless of how much we expect from the party leadership.
Millineryman @ 121
Yes – we should all do that. A simple sign saying “Impeach” is all you need to start the conversation and to begin a movement.
All it takes is one person who has the courage to show the way, and others will follow.
We can all be leaders in our home communities.
Mutant Poodle @ 27
Yes, and the old Woodward, the one that broke the Watergate stories, would be nice to have around as well.
Democrats. You need to listen. There are many of us who are sick to death with talk and more talk. It’s time for action. Real action!
Little boots isn’t that what the roman army nick named Caligula.
Scarecrow @ 118
You’re kidding me, right? You define her in her distance from the Presidency rather than her position as Speaker? Look at how you’re framing your comment.
I agree with you and AMY. Would you run for head of the DNC ?
PLEASE ? Pretty please ?
I ask you to please put pressure on my party. The Democratic Party.
Millineryman @ 121
This is a really good idea. I put up an impeachment desktop background I made on my PC screen this morning, and two people immediately yelled at me. I’m leaving it up.
dunderhead @ 80
That is the real concern for me. Hillary is just salivating about this. This sort of thing is not about political parties, it is about the age of reason, our constitution and the effect this sort of end-around will have on future executives.
Political parties are not mandated in the constitution, nor are they required. They are simply in place because of the winner take all system, and the electoral college. I just cannot believe anything is going to be done about this, though.
Tricky Dick and his obvious crimes and conspiracys to commit more crimes, and some have speculated, murder, pale in comparison to these transgressions because those people who committed those crimes, Erlichman, Liddy, Dean and others DID THEIR TIME.
Conyers is talking about “hearings/oversight” Enough is enough. It is time to engage the small minority of hard-liners in Bush’s party, and everyday start talking about obstruction of justice. Get on the talk shows and start yelling back at these pundits who only engage in ad hominem attacks because they have no other ground to stand. Get after them. Show some backbone. Hearings and oversight mean squat. Exhibit A: Alberto Gonsales still has a job.
I’m going to be slightly contrarian here. It’s better that the Dems are seen to be forced to put impeachment on the table by public outcry, than for them to be seen as the driving force on it.
But the larger point stands. Impeachment was meant to be used rarely, but not once-a-century rarely, enough so that the Clinton impeachment could be done in order to inoculate bad GOP presidents from now till 2096. Especially when future GOP presidents can point to Bush and note that he wasn’t impeached, and it’s hard to be as bad as him.
Which means that the Dems need to have the table cleared by year’s end. I don’t give a flying fuck if Bush is out of office in January 2009. That’s plenty of time for him to make trouble. The overriding public sentiment is ‘get him out already’: if this were a parliamentary system, he’d be gone on a censure motion.
You don’t choose not to use a fire extinguisher because you think the fire will burn out and only wreck a room, not the whole house.
Peterr @ 130
Exactly so! I think Grandma was trying to find her way in a new role. But you’ve hit upon a solid fact that she had no business opening her mouth on this issue. I hope she has learned since, that she serves at the will of the people and — while we expect her to make decisions for us — we do not expect her to speak for us. Sometimes that is a razor thin line.
We need to remind the Christianists that they have a commandment on the top 10 list about bearing false witness. That is essentially what Libby was convicted of.
I’m late to the table today. But, more news I’ve been dreading: Iraq’s Cabinet has approved the Bush Oil Laws and now it goes to the parliament.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..aq.html?hp
I wonder how much money passed into individuals’ hand to make this happen?
And the money that Clinton, Obama, Gore, Dodd et al have raised: They must ADVERTISE liberally on FDL.
Republicans do not own these blogs. The cycle of paying Republicans to advertise on their media must be creatively broken.
Here’s a start to all those running for office:
Spend your millions HERE and at the rest of the blogs that have worked their butts off uncovering information that helped usher Republicans out of office.
Advertise here and at every blog set up for it. It’s the least you can do.
Professor Foland @ 115
This was the aspect of Libby’s character reference letters that floored me. They praised Libby as a smart, meticulous lawyer and as a national security expert. How is it then that his national security persona didn’t recognize the importance of verifying the status of a CIA operative and how is it that his lawyer one didn’t realize it was against the law A)to out a covert agent and B) to lie about it to the FBI and a grand jury?
Where is Froomkin? Has anyone with an RSS feed gotten his column yet today?. Can’t wait to read it.
BTW, the Chimpster looks bad. My guess is that the visit with Putin didn’t go well not to mention this Scooter mess.
The ratio of Paris Hilton’s jail time to Scooter’s is 28 to 0. That computes neither mathematically nor politically nor morally.
Angry Black Bitch is living up to her moniker: The “rule of law,” my black ass! A tidbit:
Righteous indignation overfloweth. Another taste . . .
Amen, sister!
boxer @ 127
Bush doesn’t have to admit to breaking the law. Neither does Cheney.
They have to be tried and found guilty, though.
Boston1775 @ 125
A-yep.
BobbyG @ 131
Exactly. We may be toweringly upset, but we aren’t most of America.
P J Evans @ 151
You are taking my comments out of context. Read the entire quote.
Nice to see everyone here fired up for impeachment. Especially like this part of the post, Scarecrow…
The people who say that losing impeachment is inevitable are the same people who say pulling out of Iraq will absolutely lead to Civil War, as if it’s been preordained. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN!
There is tons of evidence that would come out of an impeachment hearing, plenty more stonewalling too. If it was clear that crimes were committed, the Senate would have little choice but conviction.
PLAN B, and this is by no means small, impeach Gonzo! Then, at least, maybe the DOJ will get up off its ass and do something about all this law breaking!
pseudonymous in nc @ 142
I don’t think that impeachment was meant to be used rarely – it was meant to be used when needed. It’s the high crimes and misdemeanors that are supposed to be rare. I don’t think there is some level of law breaking that we are supposed to tolerate.
greenwarrior @ 145
$16 Billion, just a guess
Jane (nyc) @ 148
He probably read through the newspapers today and decided that he needed to go out and get drunk.
Elliot at 130 — when I heard that Schumer comments last night, I thought it’s a waste of time to call the WH — they’ don’t listen and don’t care. We have six and a half years of proof of that.
I think we should be calling our congresscritters and telling them we’re holding them accountable for letting this happen. JMO.
Scarecrow @ 118
That’s exactly it. One of the thing the Republicans used to try to keep the majority last year was the very prospect of “THAT SCHEMING BITCH PELOSI MAKING HERSELF DICTATOR!!!!”
BobbyG @ 147
Cassie compared it yesterday to her mom’s 9 year sentence for selling drugs. She had a few questions for Bush about all that.
Hugh @ 147
i listened to all of libby’s grand jury testimony… and from that it was very clear that (best case) he didn’t care one whit about outing an undercover agent. no regret.
Anyone who needs a simple hand sign that says IMPEACH which can be printed on a letter size piece of paper and pasted to cardboard etc, send me an e-mail at my username at mac dot com, and i”ll send you a pdf.
Sorry if this is a stupid question..
Could Libby be impeached? And lose his ability to work in govt again as well as pensions and other benefits…. we the people are paying for.
Margot @ 117
Exactly what we’ve got.
Scarecrow @ 159
have been doing that, too
and postcards
Phoenix Woman @ 160
Exactly.
Phoenix Woman @ 160
that’s only if there is a dual bush/cheney impeachment. she could pick one of them.
Elliott @ 157
The law doesn’t mean shit..After the US leaves and the Islamic Republic of Iraq is run by Sadr..are they going to give “Big Oil” all of the profits?
Caw…CAW!
Forget the Leadership. Convince the Judiciary Committee.
Cheney first!
casual observer @ 137
She is both, but because she would be President if both Bush and Cheney were impeached simultaneously, she would be charged with promoting her own elevation. It’s a simple enough matter for her caucus to vote to put the issue on the table, without it seeming to be at her urging as Speaker.
Does impeachment start with Pelosi? Doesn’t it start in one of the committees?
TPM Bush Libby comments at Walter Reed
Steve @ 169
guess we should ask Chalabi that, eh?
Excessive?
No sir, the sentence wasn’t excessive. The crimes were excessive! The abuse of power is excessive. You sir, are excessive….channeling my inner KO
Phoenix Woman @ 160
Then she shouldn’t have said anything at all in the first place. See my reply above @ 130 and also JohnSwifty’s reply @ 143.
Jane (nyc) @ 148
Yeah, I was wondering that too. Just checked [again] and still not there. I hope it’s a doozy!!
I’m also hoping that KO will have Jonathon Turley on tonight. I don’t usually watch Hardball, so I didn’t see him on there last night. [Did manage to finally listen to Marcy’s phone call w/Shuster. Anyone know if Tweety will be back tonight?]
I was really disappointed in Dean last night on KO. Thus I’d really like to see Turley, or someone say “if this isn’t an impeachable offense, what is?” and really brandish the pitchforks. [I guess I really like to use really a lot. Really.]
Phoenix Woman @ 160
That’s why I’m talkin’ tough to Barney Frank (of all people) and Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.
I think the pressure has to stay on Bush’s party from now until September when he seeks more funding. Then, when the majority of republicans start leaving him, really put the screws to Bush’s party by advocating impeachment. I think one of the reasons he did this so quickly–Libby did not have to report for at least a couple of weeks–was to avoid dragging it out any further than necessary until the Iraq appropriations bill debate heats up again.
Eureka Springs @ 164
No. Impeachment is removal from office, and Libby holds no office.
Elliott @ 130
Anyone sign Chuckie’s petition yet? I admit I need every opportunity to vent.
And now, time for Act IV. THE IMPEACHMENT.
boxer @ 127
I am amazed at he amount of outrage express. Who thought Bush would not do this?
Millineryman @ 163
There’s a pdf on line of this postcard.
TexB @ 172
I starts with a few million angry Americans in Pelosi’s face. Until that happens… no impeachment.
Peterr at 150 — wow. File under, “wish I’d said that.”
An interesting idea from Bob Kincaid at Head On Radio Network:
just part of his essay
AZ Matt @ 173
“Bush Libby comments at Walter Reed”
that is soo surreal
TexB @ 172
Yes, of course, but I think what folks are talking about is how the Congress announces that it is putting impeachment on the table. How is that decision and announcement staged?
Just got an e-mail from Howard Dean asking for money. My reply was that although I have great respect for him, I will not be contributing until I see some real action from the Dems.
The video of Bush’s first comments on Libby were made to today at Walter Reed hospital
Link at my 173 above
boxer @ 183
The possibility that Bush might pardon was always there. It’s the realization that brings the actual outrage. And vent we must. Becuase it is very wrong for Scooter to walk.
Scarecrow @ 186
That’s where I’ve got it filed, too.
I’ve got this mental image of her running into Kit Bond at a nice 4th of July parade, and chatting him up a bit . .
*g*
Steve @ 169
what do you mean exactly, “after the US leaves”?. seems unlikely from this here perspective i seem to have.
jayackroyd @ 185
This is a hand sign, not the postcards I did earlier jay.
The fact the US has not been successful in securing those oil profits for “big oil” is IMO why we are still in Iraq. Bush isn’t going to leave empty handed.
selise @ 7
Copy that.
It ain’t gonna happen. Not with Pelosi in the speaker’s chair, not with any of these spinelss liberal whiny little bastards.
We have gotten the government we deserve. The Democrats fit EXACTLY the stereotype that Limbaugh and that crowd has portrayed them as for all these years…wimpy, weak, whiny little …..nothings, little nothings.
That describes today’s Democratic party.
A National General Strike To Re-Affirm America: Take this Administration and Shove it! They ain’t workin’ here no more!
Resistance is Direct Action. Free Speech is Direct Action. The Voice of the People will Bouy the Ship of State.
Form a boarding party Dems!
The Voice of the People cannot be Drowned in the Bathtub.
Zero out BusChen!
Impeachment should have started when Bush admitted to the NSA wiretappings.
Remember this from the NYT?
http://select.nytimes.com/sear…..94DF404482
From Cossack at Ruminations:
james @ 198
As opposed to the criminal, sneaky, lying, corrupt, war-mongering, weasel, war-profiteering, civil rights stealing, self-righteous, hypocrites that run the government we have today?
Impeachment cannot be taken off the table.
If we think of the Constitution as a table, impeachment is one of the legs propping that table up.
Take that leg away and the table goes all wobbly.
The whole thing becomes unstable.
Nancy tried to eliminate a fundamental check on executive power. She kicked a leg out from under the Constitution.
Goddammit, that was not the right thing to do!
egregious @ 197
yep
greenwarrior @ 194
The Iraqis live there. We don’t. So this year or next year or the year after, we will be gone because it is too expensive to stay, and whoever is left in power in Baghdad will toss the oil law in the crapper and come up with one of their own.
Ah, Lou Costello gets the coveted crowzed.
Froomkin on holiday?
Stewart and Colbert are…
yet more reason for Bush to hijack the justice system now instead of closer to Scoots scoot-bootin’ into the Big House.
Paris and Martha have more cojones than the whole bunch o’Bushco put together.
And say, couldn’t we boot-scoot ol’ M C Rover now?
So I turn to my New Yorker Cartoon Daily Desk Calendar to find that today, July 3, 2007’s entry is a lawyer talking to his client and the caption is…….”I find in these cases that the best defense is a pack of lies.” Strangely the timeliest most accurate thing I’ve seen so far.
Nice timing of Chimpy eh? He uses the holiday as a duck and cover. I hope KO chastises him on that tonight.
Dennis Kucinich put impeachment on Pelosi’s table and eleven others have joined him so far.. It’s up to us to get others to join.
Marcy looking beautiful on Democracy Now! Amy Goodman rocks!
james @ 198
Okay, I’ll bite. I think the adjectives should be Intelligent (you want to compare IQ’s with Schumer), Calculating (think you can plan better than Leahey), Realistic (think you know better than Pelosi what actually can be done). Instead of threats, we should tell our leaders that we will support and stand behind them 100%.
I think Gonzo has to go first. Otherwise there will be no proper investigations.
salon.com
albert fall @ 134
Keith might do. he’s calling for impeachment tonight.
Huh? MM,
This is postcard_distressed_flag_.pdf.
That’s the wrong file?
Scarecrow @ 52
Sorry for the delay.
I guess the ‘Another Edition of Simple Answers for Simple Questions’ only works for Atrios.
Most of my answers turn on my impression that the rest of the world just is not real to Dubya. Outside of actual jail time, anything that you or I would consider as ‘paying the price’ just will not register with him.
As for number 6, when I responded that the country would not be in better shape, I did not mean to imply that the country would be worse off. All I could see is more of the same ol’, same ol’.
I do agree with your ‘use it or lose it’ argument. Unfortunately I don’t believe that the political process as whole will lose impeachment as part of check-and-balances, just the Democratic party. Sort of like filibustering, the Dems didn’t and Reps are.
The beginning of Glenn Greenwald’s piece today:
I think he’s being too easy on them.
Peterr @ 150
I can only double that Amen. I wish folks had gotten this fired up in the lead-up to the war.
good news scarecrow. even digby is now considering impeachment.
Hugh @ 216
link?
It is not difficult to read in the Constitution the fundamental power of impeachment. Has there ever been a power bestowed upon a people like the power of impeachment? The Constitution was designed to, among other things, to de-emphasize the executive, and provide numerous checks on the executive’s power. That’s why it is in Article II, and Congress is in Article I. Any lawyer worth his/her salt knows that you put your best argument first.
The power, I think, begins in the HofReps, the people’s chamber. The people’s chamber that is listed in the first article, the first part, of the greatest government and social contract known in human history. It is time to take it out for a test drive.
ceci @ 95
This morning’s Washington Post article has the fishy smell of a Cheney directive. See my #46.
Sorry jay, I misread your post, no the file is correct with the distressed flag. I read it as the IMPEACH sign was posted.
Greenwald today:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
boxer @ 212
100%? Democracy is a process and not always a polite one.
I hate feeling so depressed and pessimistic, and it isn’t just because of Libby’s get out of Jail Free Card. But what are Americans supposed to be celebrating tomorrow anyway. Reading the Declaration of Independence is REALLY depressing, under Bu$hCo it seems to have turned into an irrelevant and quaint old document good for either a few laughs or many tears.
If “they” hate you for your freedom, then maybe the Chimpenfuhrer may as well just call the GWOT over. Well maybe there’s a couple of freedoms that the Pretender and his Boss BigDick haven’t taken away yet, but let’s see.
Religious Freedom – gone
Privacy – quaint and gone
Cruel and Unusual Punishment – in fashion
Habeas Corpus – what’s that?
Freedom of Movement – depends on your name and complexion
Want a Job? – move to India
Maybe they kill journalists who criticize the government in Russia – in the USA they don’t have to kill them….real journalists have gone extinct (must have something to do with the environment).
I hope you enjoy you ill gotten freedom Irving – NOT! Since you serve the USA so well, why not go over to the middle east and straighten up things?
One of the few freedoms left is the right to arm one’s self to the teeth……well when there’s nothin left to use (or is that lose?)?
Hugh @ 218
He is. He’s having the same reaction I initially had when I got the news. There’s actually been a dramatic development, though: Bush is obstructing justice, hurriedly (w/o consulting DOJ, ignoring guidelines for commutation of sentences and, most importantly, letting Libby continue to take the fifth).
Only one problem Scarecrow…
How can you advocate it is wrong for the President to overturn the resultes of a jury in one breath but in the next breath suggest that the results of an election should be overturned?
People see impeachment as requiring more than just disagreement with politics or with how someone conducts their business.
But isn’t it ironic that you would suggest impeachment for commuting the sentence of someone who was found guilty of perjury and obstruction… when you likely didn’t support the impeachment of Bill Clinton who committed perjury and obstruction himself? Kind of hard to argue rule of law?
If the impeachment fails won’t the investigation into the multiple reasons for impeachment do harm to the administration? And if investigations take place isn’t it possible that TONS more info will be found resulting in a successful impeachment?
Mary McCurnin @ 229
While I completely agree with the majority sentiment presented. We must be realistic about impeachment. If there were no tapes of Nixion’s conversations showing his complicity in Watergate, he would not have resigned. He MIGHT have been impeached, but he would have been acquitted. Book it that the Bush admin. has learned all the mistakes that Nixon made – complete plausible deniability for the President. We will not find a smoking gun. Impeachment with acquittal is a loss for demos. and America. It doesn’t change anything and will only be used by the right as an example of how Bush was NOT GUILTY, the opposite of what is true. However, impeachment and conviction of Cheney and Gonzo is possible and would help the country and the progressive cause. Let’s do something that might actually get results, not just complain about how we wish things were different.
Bush shunned input on Libby pardon, says WaPo.
Romney refused all pardons as Governor in MA This includes:
In 2005, as he was serving in Iraq, he sought a pardon to fulfill his dream of becoming a police officer.
And he has been boasting of this.
Prairie Sunshine @ 231
And we should believe this because?
Read the piece and decide for yourself.
MM, I just printed the pdf from the link, and I got the 3.5×5.5 output
*xyz @ 233
boxer @ 91
At the time of his resignation, three articles of impeachment had been apporved in the House Judiciary Committee. The composition of the committee was 21 Ds and 17 Rs. The vote on the first two articles was 27-11 and the third was 23-15. He WOULD have been impeached without a doubt. Conviction was still problematic at that time as the Senate was 56-42 with an “I” and a “C,” both of which leaned in the R column.
FYI, new thread
theExile @ 227
Maybe they kill journalists who criticize the government in Russia – in the USA they don’t have to kill them….real journalists have gone extinct (must have something to do with the environment).
Aaah, but our government does kill them. As in blasting the Aljazeera hotel location in Baghdad, as an example. Aljazeera had explicitly informed our government where they would be.
mui @ 180
I don’t think we should sign this – the only effect is to give the DCCC more email addresses for fundraising. Do we really think Bush is interested in petitions and protests? He could not care less.
I think this is a shameless act on Schumer’s part, taking advantage of our anger to grow his mailing list. And to add insult to injury, Schumer says sign to show Bush that his actions won’t be tolerated. How? By giving your email address? Schumer and the Dems have done little but tolerate Bush’s action, summed up by Pelosi in these painful words: “The Constitution is worth it if you can succeed”.
I think we should focus our pressure on the House Judiciary Committee to begin impeachment hearings.
Jane has a new thread ready.
dakine01 @ 237
You should be more careful about saying what WOULD have happened. Those votes were used to pressure Nixon into resigning. No one knows what WOULD have happened. Regardless, you missed the point. That being that an impeachment of Bush w/o a convict is a win for the right.
greenwarrior @ 239
You’re right greenwarrior, but they confine their journalist killing to offshore mostly, so far. In the “Homeland” (ah, so appropriately reminiscent of the Third Reich) they just neuter them and fatten them up on cocktail weinies.
Steve @ 119
The Hilton quote suggests it’s just politics and cronyism, when it’s actually something more dramatic: Bush is slapdashedly obstructing justice.
Scarecrow,
You said…”hire a good cook who knows what to do with the ingredients given them”
I think you just hit the nail on the head with that statement. The problem with the Democrats is none of them know how to cook the meal called Impeachment with the correct amount of garnish and relish necessary to whet the publics’ appetite for such a feast. They’re just moping about and mumbling a lot.
*xyz @ 233
See my #46 on this article. It seems to point to Cheney.
boxer:
An impeachment w/o conviction sure did turn into a victory for the dems now didn’t it? The US of A has been on the short quick descent into the sewer ever since, and not really because of the big Democratic Victories. The dems seem to know how to lose, even when they win. Of course they try to play by the rules against cheaters and criminals with no morals or values other than greed.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 128
Okay this is funny.
theExile @ 243
Totally agreed. Including how offended and alerted I’ve been ever since our government began importing the Third Reich wholesale. You can also color me with a tinfoil hat re the Reichsstag fire and 9/11.
boxer @ 242
Boxer, I say that it would have happened as I watched it unfold. The votes were taken prior to the release of the so-called smoking gun tapes. There was no push on Nixon to resign at any point until the release of those tapes. Those votes reflected the fact that even many Rs had come to realize that Nixon had broken the law. The smoking gun tapes that precipated the visit by Goldwater and Hugh Scott and others were just the final nails.
brendan @ 244
Pardon me if I’m wrong but I didn’t think Libby spent ANY time in jail, other than as an attorney meeting with clients perhaps. I’d be surprised if he was even strip searched before making bail when he was indicted.
theExile @ 247
let’s make something brutally clear
when it comes to IF we should impeach it doesn’t matter on stitch if we get a conviction or not
what matters is the process, we will expose the crimes, we will embarrass these fascists and we will embarrass any republican that makes believe these are not crimes
if they want to get re elected the impeachment passes
if the impeachment does not succeed the republicans loose the next election
win win
Perris, I agree, anything that shines any light at all on these vermin is a good thing and impeachment is certainly likely to do that.
I would also suggest that the words “I do not recall” be either disallowed or intepreted to be equivalent to a guilty plea in court or testifying before Congressional Committees.
Example.
Conyers: “Mr. Abu Gonzo, did you help select the attorneys to be replaced?
Torture Boy: “I don’t recall” translation – yes I personally selected each one, because they were evil liberals and enemies of Amerika.
re the above:
They don’t need “I can’t recall,” because it isn’t as if they don’t know how to lie straight in your face….so just make ‘em do what they do so well………
My thoughts (by no means “the” answers but how I feel about each):
1. I dont believe that if impeachment were on the table it would change anything that Bush does. Since he believes he is above all other laws he must also think himself above impeachment.
2. If impeachment were on the table perhaps Americans would pay more attention. However, most Americans do not know a lot about Libby or this trial. They have continually seen Bush move above the law and I don’t see anything shy of naming himself actual dictator will push Americans to really want impeachment. Now maybe if he can get blown in the oval office people might care.
3. The only better position Dems would be in would be the ability to point at impeachment and go “you don’t want this do you.” It would be like a father pointing at his belt to warn the kids of a spanking. Still though, the Dems haven’t spanked Bush on anything so even if it were on the table, I doubt he would be frightened.
4. Commuting a sentence is not the watershed issue that would drive the public to cry out for impeachment. If impeachment were on the table I think it would take more than this. Bush does have the ability as the Executive to commute a sentence or pardon Libby outright. He is not breaking the law, he maybe doing something kinda sleazy but its not illegal, thus not a point for raising the flag of impeachment across the country.
5. I don’t know if the Dems would be better or worse off in the 2008 election. I think the feeling for most of the actual Washington apparatus is that things are falling apart for Republicans with out them having to go for impeachment. I think you still have a good portion of the country, despite Bush’s low approval rating that would not like the idea of impeachment. Now impeachment did work in the short run for Republicans, but I think they made outrage out of Clinton’s morals rather than the real crime. Loose morals upsets America more than leaking information, wiretapping, taking dictatorial control of the government, and the other list of things the Bush administration has done.
6. I think if the Dems went through with impeachment, and if the public supported it, to big ifs, the powers that the Executive Branch has gained over Bush’s tenure in office, would be heavily checked. Those seeking the office, and those holding it in later terms would have fair warning that the congress is in fact a co-equal branch of government and is willing to exert its power.
perris @ 253
wrong, wrong, wrong, if we impeach and Bush is not convicted, he will be forever NOT GUILTY, not worth the risk unless it’s a sure bet on conviction. In fact, if Bush if Articles are filed, look for Rove and Co. to push for trial in the Senate, Bush won’t resign. Why should he? They will force the Senate to convict, something it won’t do, and the right will forever proclaim his innocence and chaulk everything up to partisianship.
How come none of the good cops, I mean, none of the Democratic Leaders dare to put it on the table? I believe I have heard Obama, Reid, both Clintons, Gore and the woman poised to be the first woman president, Nacy Pelosi, all pooh-pooh the very notion of using impeachment.
Could it be that the Contitution calls for a woman president now, which would take some of the historic wind out of Hillary’s ‘08 sail?
This option should be pursued for the good of the planet ASAP.
President Pelosi and Constitutional Democracy Please!
10-4, boxer. Impeachment without conviction would be a DISASTER.
• When 20 R Senators say they are ready, an impeachment could happen.
Otherwise, and we are in the world of otherwise, indictment and resignation is the ONLY route that has ever worked.
mui @ 226
Dennis Kucinich placed articles of impeachment on Speaker Pelosi’s table months ago… And while I am at it… Joe Lieberman is NOT a Democrat.
• Impeachment as a process has NEVER worked.
• In the two cases where it has been used with chief executives, the impeachment process was a Congressional CRIME.
INIDICTMENT AND RESIGNATION is the more reliable path, which is what we are following — and we are making definite progress toward that goal.
probably EPU-land, but nonevermind…
necessary to let off a little steam…
CH Truth @ 229
HUH??? But, what about us silly folk who think this whole gawdferrotten mess traces to an illegally overturned election in 2000, followed by a stolen election in 2004?
I SEE your dubble-negative and RAISE, one HEQQ of an OBJECTION to your whole line of thot, fella!
apologies for the shouting, everyone… just back from firing off some hopefully pithy-but-respectful prose to several congresscritters in re obstruction of justice & impeachment & all that silly little chatter with which we fill our days here.
*line of smoke still curling up from top of head*
“But isn’t it ironic that you would suggest impeachment for commuting the sentence of someone who was found guilty of perjury and obstruction… when you likely didn’t support the impeachment of Bill Clinton who committed perjury and obstruction himself?”
Clinton’s act of ‘obstruction’ was in the case of his own act of sexual indiscretion.
• Bush’s communtation and other acts of CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY are to cover over TREASON.
See if you can tell the difference, ****.
MOD note: Small edit.
CH Truth @ 229
That’s because the people who think the way you do have a fundamental lack of understanding of what impeachment is for. It’s not a penalty for doing something wrong. Someone who is impeached — according to the Constitution — is still ” liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.”
What impeachment is for is to remove someone from office who can no longer be trusted with the power of that office. Someone who is incompetent. Someone who is abusive of their power. Someone who uses their office for personal gain or retribution against their enemies. The purpose of impeachment is to protect the nation from a misuse or failure to use the power of the office.
So no, there’s no paradox in saying Clinton shouldn’t be impeached and saying Bush should be impeached. Was Clinton abusing the power of his office (not “Office”) when he committed perjury about having sex with Monica Lewinsky? Did he abuse the power of his office in covering it up? Did he abuse the power of his office to punish the people who were trying to remove him from office? Those are impeachable offenses. The fact that he committed perjury — or even if he’d committed murder — would not in and of themselves be impeachable, unless the Senate decided that he was no longer capable of wielding his power in a reasonable manner.
Bush explicitly used his presidential power to commute the sentence of a former White House staffer in the Libby case. If he did so in order to cover up other abuse of power by the White House, that is the very essence of an impeachment case. That’s what iot’s for.
You may as well be asking the Keystone cops (i.e. Democrats) to bring Al Capone (i.e. Bush and the Republican crime family) to justice. It just ain’t gonna happen.
From the moment the Democrats stated that impeachment wasn’t an option…well they may as well have bent over and pulled their pants down. Remember the Republicans didn’t hesitate to try and impeach Clinton. They knew they weren’t going to succeed but they went for it anyway. Meanwhile Laurel and Hardy…I mean Reid and Pelosi may as well be saying “Mother may I…”
So much for instant karma. They’ve rigged the game in their favor. I’ve said it before: Buch and co. are laughing all the way to bank.
Mary McCurnin @ 230
• The problem is that we’re dealing with a complicit party in Congress that will NOT vote the facts.
We would also turn power back over to the other side and allow them to restore a measure of their credibility by playing defense, instead of HAVING to defend themselves from indictable offense after indictable offense uncovered in the committee process.
We MUST remove the AG and the crony USAs. That job is before us; impeachment of the executive is not. People really should throw their tomatoes at their enemies, instead of the Dem Congress, which is restoring the Constitution on a daily basis.
“What impeachment is for is to remove someone from office who can no longer be trusted with the power of that office.” — Darrel
That’s the idea, Darrel, but IT HAS NEVER WORKED.
• The impeachment power is a MYTH.
The indictment power is what we need to free up. That involves removing Gonzales, and the crony USAs.
I say all this after TWO YEARS of intensive effort for impeachment in from 2002 to 2004, when we were in the minority, and going to hell in a handbasket.
Rep. Conyers agrees with Pelosi. As chair of the House Judicial Committee, he would have to pass any bill of impeachment to the floor. He even wrote a book detailing 25 major federal crimes by Bushco (how many of you have read it? It’s $8.83 at Amazon).
http://tinyurl.com/2f98w8
He also was there for Nixon, so it’s not like he doesn’t understand the process.
Paul in LA @ 268
Let them hang by their own petards. Don’t impeach them. They have only 18 months to go. If Leahy, Conyers and Waxman can’t ARREST them, then why bother impeaching? Bush is @ 27% and plummeting, ever so slowly to zero. The only arrest worth making is an Iranian invasion.
This Libby crap is cheap theater to get our minds off the major scam in Iraq where there are now more Blackwater contractor/troops than US Armed Forces–the arithmetic of redeployment has begun!!
Is Broder silent? Or is he on vacation? How could he have missed this strategic analysis?
Or do we have to hear it from that idiot Toensing woman. She’d try to sell us that we never really invaded a non-threatening country.
boo yah
Peterr @ 180
Impeachment is an act which can remove from office and prohibit the holding of office or receiving the “emoulements of office”.
So Libby CAN BE IMPEACHED…banned from holding future positions of trust and have his pension and other priveleges of office revoked.