New GOP talking point: Bush commuted Scooter’s sentence to please his base.
The conscripted:
Janet Hook, in The Los Angeles Times: “Bush’s action shows that, with a little more than 18 months remaining in his second term and his influence at its lowest ebb, he is still willing to rely on his signature leadership style — one that risks polarizing the country to take stands that satisfy his conservative base.”
Amy Goldstein in The Washington Post: “Still, the president appeared to calculate that he would antagonize his conservative base too severely if he did not provide Libby some form of reprieve, according to people close to the White House.”
InstaHack: “My prediction: Bush will rise in the polls as estranged conservatives warm to him in light of lefty indignation.”
John Harwood: “This is not going to be popular with the American public as a whole but Republicans are happy tonight, and I’ll tell you, so is Dick Cheney.”
Massimo Calabresi, Time Magazine: “On the right, the Republican base, which demanded mercy for Libby, will be placated. Had Bush not acted, they would have turned on him, weakening the last pocket of support he has.”
The truth of the matter: Fucking hogwash. According to the new SurveyUSA poll from last night, only 31% of Republicans agree with Bush’s decision. This was a move to keep Libby quiet. It had nothing to do with placating Bush’s supporters.
Who got it right:
The New York Times Editorial page: “Presidents have the power to grant clemency and pardons. But in this case, Mr. Bush did not sound like a leader making tough decisions about justice. He sounded like a man worried about what a former loyalist might say when actually staring into a prison cell.
Dan Froomkin: “[B]ush’s decision yesterday to commute Libby’s prison sentence isn’t just a matter of unequal justice. It is also a potentially self-serving and corrupt act.”
It really shouldn’t be too much for serious journalists to follow the story just a little bit before coming to these kinds of outrageously false conclusions. Do they really want to be considered in the same breath as professional shit shovelers like Reynolds?
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zunoed?
whoo hoo
Some signs from around the USA:
http://freewayblogger.blogspot…..m-usa.html
This is how you speak out. Even at baseball games…
{{{{{{JANE}}}}}}
Jane! That’s a great pic up top.
Norman Pearlstine is on Hardball and seems to also understand that Libby was protecting the Chimp’s a**.
I hope GW Bush sweats this one:
The short of it — Reggie is pissed.
Great story. The left needs to harp on this til the cows come home. The commutation was done to protect Cheney and Bush because it allows Scooter to plead the 5th. Then when they’re leaving town 1/21/09 Bush’ll pardon him. They are counting on the Dems not to impeach.
I idea here is that Bush did the dirty Libby deed to protect himself, Dick and Karl. It’s about blackmail and obstruction.
EPU’d from last thread, posted by Scav 237:
Walton…He’s baaaack…
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..usion.html
Consider this: the commutation of Libby’s sentence is a sign of the weakness of the White House, not a sign of their strength.
They made a deal with Scooter at the beginning of his trial that he would not serve time in jail. Why? Because if Scooter sings, he can implicate them all in much. They had no choice but to offer Scooter everything that he wanted.
Knowing that they were going to commute his sentence, they did their very best to build a public case for a pardon, even though the case is ludicrous on its face, and was unpersuasive to all except those whose self-interest is directly at stake. Did they assume that they were going to be as low as they are in the polls as they are now? No, they always assume that things are going to get better for them soon.
So, when the appeal bond was denied, the bill came due. Scooter had to be saved from jail, or what? Or else, he talks! Or, someone else talks who can read the writing on the wall, and has come to doubt the assurances that they, unlike crooked congressmen, will never go to jail.
Bush and Rove know that they are pissing away the GOP chances in 2008. One has to ask what could make them willing to do that? And what are they so afraid of that it seems a better alternative?
They are weak, and they are one witness away from having it all come down on them, and they are willing to risk their whole party’s future on saving their own hides.
Remember, Libby can still plead the 5th if he’s asked questions about all this, which he could not have done if he had been pardoned outright.
That’s what the media is refusing to see. Even Josh Marshall has not really figured this out yet.
Who is putting out serious information on Libby’s wife’s threats to spill all? Who was the guy where Plame used to meet (coffee shop) who was murdered a few weeks after she was outed?
AZ Matt @ 7
WaPo Link. yeah, Reggie is pissed and is making sure that the story is alive after the holiday weekend!
Is there a citation to the post H2O-gate law that make it illegal for a President to use presidential powers to cover up a crime?
I said it early yesterday and repeat it here.
W and Darth planned this exit strategy from the beginning.
As for the war, not so much.
dear firepups watching cable “news”…. have any of our congress critters yet used the words “obstruction of justice” or “coverup”?
who’s in charge of our talking points…. i sure wish it could be jane.
OT — My mother’s favorite sax player has passed away:
Pachacutec @ 13
It was just said on Hardballs.
And here’s to you Mr. Fitzgerald. A nation turns it’s lonely eyes to you.
fwiw, copy of what I sent the Speaker. Also sent something to Conyers & my own *sigh* “rep”. & we signed the MoveOn Petition.
All the talk of polls gives me hives. No kidding. I often wonder if they’re not becoming less and less accurate, as people become sick to death of the dang things. Then again, I s’pose the gurus have factored cranks like me into their formulas…
My letter to Pelosi, not that it’s too terrific, but it might trigger some more ideas from other Lake-dwellers. I know I missed a lot.
-
Wait a minute!
Bush absolutely did this to please his base (as well as to obscure any bread crumbs leading to his truly).
But about that word, base. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. . . .
Just a reminder, that in US v Nixon (not to be confused with Nixon v US…), it was ruled that executive privilege does not cover the investigation of actual crimes.
This is why it’s important to keep hitting that this commutation is itself a criminal obstruction of justice.
Steve, ask and ye shall receive!
AZ Matt @ 17
Sad day. Bubbles (Beverly Sills) has also passed away. [and I listen to both bluegrass and opera!]
anybody see this on AP 20 minutes ago?
christy thoughts? loosehead take?
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Bush forced the CIA leak case into uncharted legal territory when he commuted the prison sentence of former White House aide I. Lewis ”Scooter” Libby, a federal judge said Tuesday.
Bush eliminated Libby’s 2 1/2-year prison term and left in place his two years of supervised release. But supervised release — a form of probation — is only available to people who have served prison time. Without prison, it’s unclear what happens next.
U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton posed the question to Libby’s attorneys and to Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald: Does this mean Libby won’t actually be required to serve supervised release? Should he just have to report to probation officials as if he spent time in prison?
The law, Walton said in court documents, ”does not appear to contemplate a situation in which a defendant may be placed under supervised release without first completing a term of incarceration.”
For now, it appears Libby is in legal limbo. Walton gave both sides until Monday to respond.
selise @ 19
Congresscritters? As far as I can tell they’re on vacation.
AWOL as far as I’m concerned. Nancy and Harry should bring them all back to Washington to go back to work TOMORROW.
It’s not as if they don’t have anything to do.
Professor Foland @ 23
Thanks!
Glenn Reynolds is a law professor. This woman named Ann Althouse said I should respect that fact.
Obstruction of justice is not so hard to say media.
selise @ 18
Harry is using “Obstruction of Justice” in his e-mails but that’s about it as far as I know.
LS @ 10
Thanks. Interesting and another legal mess trying to cover up rather than pay the piper. Will Bush and Cheney just make up a new law to suit Scooter/themselves?
Where are the GOP Senators and Congressmen? I’ve heard lots of talk of the Democratic reaction to Bush’s blatant obstruction of justice, but not much from any Republican who wasn’t already on the Libby Cheerleaders squad. So where are the GOP Senators and Congressmen on this? Is there a Republican push for legislation to revise federal sentencing guidelines, given that they’re so excessive?
In light of his utterly transparent self-serving abuse of the pardon power, it is now glaringly evident that the President of the United States is a co-conspirator in a criminal conspiracy to obstruct justice in the matter of a national security leak perpetrated by his own subordinates.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
Relentlessly incinerate the wingnut and Bushie red herrings. If this is not an impeachable offense, we ought strike the clause from the Constitution.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Call Libby in. Give him immunity and force him to sing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9J5Zt2Obko
When Nixon did the Saturday Night Massacre, it was obvious to everyone that he was obstructing the investigation to protect himself. When Shrub kept Scooter out of jail, it was obvious to everyone (evne 69% of Republicans) that he was protecting himself and Big Time. Everyone except the MSM, where for Republicans, “obstruction of justice” is the act that dare not speak its name. Marcy at TNH just posted that she was interviewed for a WaPo article, said the commutation was obstruction, and was edited out of the article in favour or Charlie F****** Black! I truly think the public gets this, the key is to make it as easily understandable and in the media as much as a Clinton bl*wj*b. Obstruction of Justice (OJ) is the new BJ!!!
~~~ModNote: Edited for content to clear filters.~~~
Jane,
OT. kind of. referring to the last thread . . I sent you an e-mail yesterday about a couple of checks I’ve sent that have not been cashed.
And I do know you’ve been well, kind of busy. The e-mail was sent before the sh*t hit the fan. Anyway, it’s there somewhere.
If the President walks up to someone and shoots them dead or rapes and strangles them, is the only way he can be held accountable for a crime and be removed from office, impeachment????
*spit-take*
trifecta @ 28
And neither of them offer as much sound legal information based on FACTS as folks like Christy, loosheadprop, and the other lawyers who hang out here.
In fact, Insta-idiot and Ann Outhouse should probably get some refunds from their law schools for what they DIDN’T learn.
My sense is that they floated out pardon today because they were afraid of Walton’s opinion. In other words keep your mouth shut libby and your wish will be granted..
SuburbanGirl @ 8
harry and nancy have to keep the powder dry. nobody knows why. but they just have to keep it dry. and off the table.
Even Dems aren’t shouting this angle… it was the first thing I thought of when I got Chuck Schumer’s e-mal from the dscc this morning… tauting that we should be outraged that Libby is not serving his time…. but totally neglecting the fact that Bush is covering Cheney’s ass.
How hard is it for people to realize that these fact came out at trial:
1) Cheney was Libby’s “source” for knowledge about Valerie Plame
2) Cheney gave Libby his marching orders to spill the beans about her… which Libby dutifully did.
It’s really quite simple.
But no one seems to be able to spit it out.
And I agree, they had this planned from the gitgo… which is why Cheney didn’t even bother to write a letter in support of Libby.
He knew it wasn’t necessary.
Pachacutec @ 12
pach – i spoke with my rep this morning (jim mcgovern) and he got it… his point (without me prompting) was that the house judiciary committee could just grant libby immunity (not like he’s going to serve any time anyway)…. so that he could not take the 5th.
the problem of course, is that there is no reason to expect libby will tell the truth, even under those circumstances. w/o the 30 months hanging over libby – there is just no motivation to come clean. and bush has sent the message that he wants the cover up to continue.
I’ve spent all day reading this blog while watching the MSM spinmeisters. Except for Joe Wilson on Tweety’s show (first 13 minutes) this has been by far more informative..
Jane, Christy, Para and all the other writers.. You guys are wearin’ me out !!!
Keep up the much needed illumination on the high crimes being committed hourly at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave..
AZ Matt @ 7
As well he should be – its called obstruction of justice anyway you look at it.
A bit OT but am confused about the Blog Ad thingy – do they get that cut automatically from Pay Pal donations. Hope not for I would of just as easily mail a check directly awhile ago.
I think you need to check the survey page again: 31% of conservatives and 32% of GOPers who are familiar with the case agree with Cheney/Bush. About the same % of same informed wingnut groups wanted a pardon (which I think would have been wrong, but been less of an obstruction of justice). About half everybody is familiar with the case.
But your main point is correct, but I think lets slide that lots of education is required by the forces of good, after which we can get 60-70% of all adults disapproving, if attitudes of the currently informed are representative. That will come in handy next electino time.
And it is true that even if 1/3 of conservatives/GOPers wanted a pardon, they are not pleased -the meat of commutation wasn’t red enough for them. So, I got no problem with the main point of the post that the ‘please the base’ line is BS. Just nit-picking.
TRex @ 36
707!!
LS @ 36
pretty much.
According to this post, the RNC fax machine is apparently humming right along,just like it did when Melman was there.
I would love to find that thing and put a well placed ball peen hammer in its guts.
RevDeb @ 47
Unless he has sex, right?
LindaR @ 23
Bush only thinks of himself.. As with every move he makes it is entirely self serving obstruction and personal CYA.
This is one I ran into:
I gave them back that the last two times (excluding Clinton) we did that, we got the #$%^&*s back two presidents later. (Cr*p, they even brought back Kissinger and Nixon as some kind of ‘elder statesmen’.) No. Not again. Never again.
They did the crime, they can f*cking well do the time.
Eureka Springs @ 49
apple falls close to the tree…
…supervised release — a form of probation — is only available to people who have served prison time. Without prison, it’s unclear what happens next.
U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton posed the question to Libby’s attorneys and to Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald: Does this mean Libby won’t actually be required to serve supervised release? Should he just have to report to probation officials as if he spent time in prison?…
looks like the
DeciderObstructor is also the Confuser.Ding. In fact, IMO, this was one of his better chicken-s**t plays. He didn’t have the cajones to go for the full pardon, so he weaseled. (OK, so there’s that whole immunity benefit, but I think only Addington was paying attention there. Bush’s take was mealy-mouthed middle ground. Can you say W-I-M-P? His fave word, just like Poppy.)
It reminds me of his old stem-cell announcement, where we won’t support *new* stem-cell research, but we’ll mess around with the lines we’ve already got. No one’s really happy. No one really wins (especially anyone with a disease in need of research). No need to be intellectually honest.
Pyuh.
according to bush, bush’s base are the haves and the have mores
Libby discussion Newshour PBS
RevDeb @ 46
But, if his vice president or his chief of staff hold the victim down or try to help him cover up his crime, he cannot pardon them. That is obstruction of justice.
Steve @ 27
Direct link to the court opinion:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/…..p;page=683
The sad thing is, if this decision is challenged by Bush, the current court will over turn the decision 5/4. And while they are at it, Marbury v Madison will be over turned..it’s s different world post 9/11, you know.
Busted @ 47
I have a friend who prefers a 9mm hollowpoint into the engine block. Or, in this case, the drum.
If Bush gets away with this Libby thing, it won’t be Karl and Dick who suffer. It will be us. Because we will have appeared weak in the eyes of the American voter. Democrats do something!
As usual, the PBS NewsHour gets stoopid irrelevant people to comment on this. Not that either of them is stupid, but because they know nothing about the case.
i hear ya Jane. these evil neo-cons and their assault on reason and the laws of the constitution, are criminally f*ucking insane!
IMPEACH!
Ed*ard Teller @ 52
kinda points up the utter lunacy of whut the deciderator just did dudn’ it – ‘cept a-course to save himown arse? ayyyuppp!
a precedent among presidents
Why am I listening to NewsHour?
RevDeb @ 60
absolutely pointless discussion!
Woodhall Hollow @ 57
my understanding is that he cannot pardon those persons who have been impeached. Anything else is fair game.
FYI, Marcy up on Democracy Now… now.
According to this blogger, they’ve just turned off the WH’s phone comment line.
Is it true the man Vice President Cheney chose as his closest adviser is a convicted felon?
-GSD
You know… if this commutation gets a pass and a yawn from the media and the Dems… we might as well just hang it up til Nov 08… or maybe for good.
Sometimes I think the politeness of the democratic system needs to be thrown out the door and people need to take to the streets… and not back down.
f*cking liars and crooks and thieves.
Neoconvicts
A nice page from the Pitt Law school on pardons generally and their specific constitutional basis.
Also, I had not realized that executive privilege is a modern construction without Constitutional basis other than generic separation of powers arguments.
I’ve a question for the lawyers around, about what seems like a grammatical ambiguity. The Constitutional phrasing limiting the power of impeachment in Article II, Section 2 is:
Does this prohibition extend only to the person being impeached, or more broadly through all aspects of the case of impeachment?
i.e. if there were articles of impeachment brought concerning the president’s authorization of FISA violations, would the president be prohibited from pardoning anyone connected with that case, or would he only be prohibited from pardoning those specifically being impeached (i.e. possibly himself, or say an NSA director)?
JPL @ 64
I just changed the channel.
Ed*ard Teller @ 67
thar’s a poll for ya… *g*
RevDeb @ 65
I am no expert in this regard, but I have read lately that he cannot pardon those who are implicated in crimes which also implicate him. But I could be wrong about that.
Sometimes when I read the latest lie and and perversion of our democrazy that the supposedly patriotic conservatives/Bush camp has pulled off, I get a very visceral moment of anxiety that emenates from my belly up. Then my mind reminds me that this is an Imperial Presidency based on a stolen election(s)-I have no reason to expect anything more or less. And then I get even more anxious. We are so in deep doo-doo.
Ed*ard Teller @ 67
that link also led to an icky Dershowitz excuse for the commutation
inch by inch, decider decides to get a little bit more popular than the 28%, and 29% obviously better than 28%! So this Libby decision for him is no brainer.
Elliott @ 76
“If the Libby can’t be kept mute, you must commute”…?
It’s OK.
Religious conservative Cal Thomas is pretty much calling for genocide against Muslims.
This nation is being sucked into a cesspool of deceit and mendacity and fascism.
-GSD
ET @ 67
It tells you what kind of comments they’ve been getting. (Time to stick fingers in ears, over there.)
Ed*ard Teller @ 77
that fits
selise @ 42
NO, selise. I AM a criminal defense lawyer and I think Libby still retains his 5th Amedndment privilege to remain silent, at least while his appeal is pending and his conviction is “not final” and while he’s serving a sentence of supervised release since that sentence is still subject to modification by the Judge for a violation.
I think we should all first publicly characterize this commutation as an opportunity to reflect on the excessive and overly severe sentences which are deemed “reasonable” by Federal courts everyday in apolitical cases large and small, BUT. . .
The “beauty” of the commutation (as opposed to a pardon)is that it allows Scooter’s appeal to proceed and therefore I would argue that Scooter retains his 5th Amendment privilege, even in the face of a subpoena now. I just watched the insufferable Tucker Carlson on Hardball screaming that there was no reason “not to pardon” Scooter, as opposed to “commute” his prison sentence. But it seeems pretty clear to me as a matter of law that a full pardon would be found to supplant his 5th Amendment privilege to remain silent when subpoenaed, by Congress OR a grand Jury, while a commutation wouldn’t, and that makes all the difference in the world. . . to Rove, Cheney and Bush! “Omerta. It’s Not Just For Mafia Anymore!”
cc in nm @ 70
The Ladies of the Lake work to hard for that type of attitude…
Rev Deb, I also turned it off and put on music for the soul..
Marcy on Democracy Now is amazing. What command of detail, what clarity.
OtisIsHungry @ 81 –
thank you for the correction and info.
This is simmering nicely, if a little vaguely, on the traditional media burner. It was off their radar once Libby became the fall guy. This could be useful, because this road leads straight back to the build-up to the
waroccupationIraq debacle.Joe Wilson’s been getting a lot of air time, as has (yay!) Marcy.
Obstruction: apply directly to the forehead.
trifecta @ 28
From The Gavel
This really sounds like they are setting the table. Good, I’m hungry!
snowbird42 @ 84
i love democracy now! – try to listen every day, it’s the best way to stay informed…. and i love that amy goodman gave marcy enough time and didn’t rush her.
The interesting thing is, that for much less provocation in the late ’60’s early 70’s, there were crowds in the streets and gas in the air. I can still smell the gas.
you guys are incredible.
you keep saying we need to take action, make changes, do something, blah, blah.
what are you doing? sitting in front of a computer monitor FOR MONTH AFTER MONTH. Hyperventilating about… what? The war? No! Something else with smashingly serious consequences? NO! You’re fixated instead on some legal technicality of a court case. As if some prosecutor was magically going to do what the electorate is unwilling or unable to do – get rid of the Bush Crime Family.
One would have hoped that all the wasted cyber ink over ‘will Fitz indict Rover’ might have slowed you down from acting like the Fitz deal was the only thing in town. But no! Here you all are months later still fuming over a lawsuit that anyone could have predicted was going to end in a pardon from the get go.
Of course the right is laughing today. Of course the Bushites will be emboldened by this. Once again, they’ve demonstrated themselves cunning, fearless and calculating, while the left is well calling the White House Hotline where the plug has already been pulled.
oh yeah, you only look ridiculous with this meme about ‘obstruction of justice.’ What Bush did was within his constitutional authority. It might have been evil or morally bankrupt, but unless the founding fathers wrote an ‘intent’ qualification into the pardon/communtation powers with invisible ink, what he did isn’t obstruction of justice, at least not in the legal sense, which is how you’re using it.
the whole Plame outting was small potatoes compared to what the BCF has been doing. Utterly small potatoes. Yet here you all are still fixated on it. All puffed up and angry.
While Bush and his fans are laughing. At you and people like you.
that outta be a sign that the Plame fixation has been a loser from the start
snowbird42 @ 85
Here’s a link to the streaming page of today’s show. Amy Gooodman’s interview with Marcy Wheeler starts at 15′10″.
GSD @ 79
I hear what you are telling us.
The trolls have arrived.
(Not asking for cleanup yet. Later, maybe.)
Elliott @ 76
I got the impression yesterday that they only keep the line open and staffed during “normal” business hours. I called yesterday as soon as the info came out about the commutation and the message was that the hours were 9AM to 5PM EDT so they may even have left the line open a little longer than usual today.
But that’s why I started calling at 9:01AM EDt this morning.
don’t feed!
tyvm
:-)
Cal Thomas is a nut case.
Plame really isn’t the point. The right to expect honesty and integrity from our elected officials is the point. That should be remembered, because unless we do, it will never happen.
New GOP talking point: Bush commuted Scooter’s sentence to please his base.
Tuned into Tucker hoping Shuster was hosting but the idiot son of the a**hole was back on the job. While I was setting a timer to catch KO, Buchanan said that the commutation had nothing to do with pleasing the base and everything to do with pleasing Libby’s supporters. Tucker moves on to a new topic instantly. No surprise there, I am glad to hear he has lost his 6pm show.
Schuster just annihilated Tucker.
redink @ 90
“oh yeah, you only look ridiculous with this meme about ‘obstruction of justice.’ What Bush did was within his constitutional authority. It might have been evil or morally bankrupt, but unless the founding fathers wrote an ‘intent’ qualification into the pardon/communtation powers with invisible ink, what he did isn’t obstruction of justice, at least not in the legal sense, which is how you’re using it.”
May-be..May-be not..
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/…..p;page=683
Obstruction of justice – so easy, a caveman can understand it. :)
Obstruction of justice – so easy, a troll can understand it. :)
Tucker Carlson on MSNBC gave extensive, very pro-Libby, pro-Bush coverage to the Libby commutation tonight. Did I miss his disclaimer that his father is the head of Libby’s legal defense fund? Or, as usual, did he just fail to mention it? I think it was the latter.
Along the lines of ‘Bush did this to placate his base’ meme, by all(rational) accounts Bush’s actions were/are reckless.
It’s not a long jouney to connect the dots that Bush would act in a similar reckless fashion and attack Iran. No matter how damaged Bush is politically he still wields enourmous power as President. His willingness to flangrantly dismiss the outcome of the judicial process reasonably begs the question, what other acts is he willing to commit to satisfy a narrow brand of radicals that still support him?
neurophius @ 104
Give his show to Shuster.
Pachacutec @ 96
Party Pooper!!! :P
LS @ 100
Tucker is tiresome
Shuster is a class act
Neurophius – just like Shrub fails to mention that quote from HIS father that those who expose CIA agents are the most insidious of traitors.
It’s wierd that AlQuida means “base”…..isn’t it? Is this the base Bush is playing to?
Why does the frozen dinners scion still have a show on my tv?
Shuster in Tucker’s slot, and Rachel Maddow in Joe “what dead intern?” Scarborough’s.
Plame really isn’t the point. The right to expect honesty and integrity from our elected officials is the point. That should be remembered, because unless we do, it will never happen.
—
But the Bush gang are dishonest and lack integrity on a daily, if not hourly, basis. There is plenty of that. My point is about the foolish tactic of focusing every last ounce of angst, effort, rage, etc on Plame. The Blog (and this site in particular) has made it about Plame and nothing else. Plame, Plame, Plame (or perhaps more accurately, swooning over Fitz). It’s a fixation of the left (and this site) which has resulted in wasted effort with nothing to show for it.
Has anyone noticed that the longer this case stays in the limelight, the more intelligent some in the msm become? Not all, by any means, and there are some glaring omissions, but the ones who care seem to have really sharpened up when they write and speak. And as they become sharper about the details of the Plame matter, they seem to be able to think, write and speak more critically about the Bush admin in general.
Maybe a small sliver of silver in the dark cloud over DC.
neurophius @ 104
So when is one of the guests on his show going to mention that, call him on his bias?
Aw come on. Can’t I tell the troll that a criminal trial is not a lawsuit? (Stop…bad blogger…big wrist slap…must…not…feed…troll)
There’s a kid on Tucker who is holding his own – Peter Beinart
Sorry, I am hoarding my kibbles.
Woodhall Hollow @ 112
it never hurts to look for a rainbow
My PBS Station carries BBC for 30 minutes. I just tuned in and caught the end of the Libby coverage, but the reporter asked why Bush didn’t pardon Paris Hilton? Good question, she only did what he did drive fast and drive drunk.
he is still willing to rely on his signature leadership style
Bush has a leadership style?
Nemo @ 114
Probably when a guest on Press the Meat calls Timmeh on speaking about Plame and pretending that he had nothing to do with it, when he was Dick’s chosen one.
Troll also steals kibbles.
Maybe the “base” shrub is placating here is just a base of one.. Dick. I mean, if you were shrub would you want to *eff off the Dark Lord? You might wake up on fire or with horns on your head, or something. :P
Elliott @ 118
:-)
When I wrote the speaker I forgot the madam part, will she think disrespectful for that or the part begging her to just do something about horrible group of criminals in the White House.
Ishmael @ 120
Sick Kobe on the troll. That’ll larn ‘im.
Jane Hamsher @ 115
I’m serious, it’s too tempting to feed ‘em, err.., swat’em!!! 8-)
#115 – Thanks for reminding me, Jane. Back to wasting my time feeding that dreaded disease afflicting people around this place – becoming a better informed citizen. Without feeding mini-trolls, which I really do like doing, but…
But how did Dershowitz get the head injury?
Cheney is obviously driving that bus…all the way to Iran.
argosfalcon @ 126
I doubt she is that petty. She has too many grandkids.
Jane Hamsher @ 115
With all the good you have done as a blogger, you could never be a bad blogger.
cleter @ 120
It’s called petulance, with a host of daddy issues and an instinct for cruelty and violence mixed in there for good measure,
Woodhall Hollow @ 74
I don’t think that’s true…look at Poppy’s Christmas Eve pardons in 92 of Abrams, Wienberger (who was directly going to implicate Bush 41 if he went to trial the following month), et al in the Contra case.
I think we do need to rethink these pardon powers now that it’s been absolutely proven that our politicians are more craven than even the Framers, who were closer in time to the Medicis and Borgias, could ever have imagined.
To bad firefox only checks my spelling and not my grammar.
A decision to commute a sentence must be unraveled. It has many layers like an onion, which you can peel to make onion rings. Oh God, I am getting hot.
(/Professor Althouse)
(ok, I will quit now)
OT..but..
LOUISVILLE, Ky. – Federal prosecutors filed notice Tuesday that they will seek the death penalty if former soldier Steven D. Green is convicted of killing an Iraqi family and raping a 14-year-old girl. ……
Dozens were killed in the unit’s yearlong deployment and half of the battalion, including Green, sought help for combat stress.
An Associated Press investigation in January found that an Army psychiatry team diagnosed Green as a threat to Iraqi civilians four months before the rape and murders.
According to military documents, Green was treated with drugs to regulate his mood before returning to duty in a violent stretch of desert in the southern Baghdad suburbs known as the “Triangle of Death…..
http://rawstory.com/showarticl…..pe_slaying
They put this guy, who probably was not well put together to begin with, on psychoactive drugs and send him back into combat.
trifecta @ 28
So’s Yoo. I guess we need to respect that fact too.
fine, Jane…substitute the phrase ‘criminal trial’ for the shorter hand reference to lawsuit if it suits you, but my underlying point is just the same – you and all the obviously fine minds on this site have devoted your effort for months now, well over a year, into a fixation on the Plame deal. It remains small potatoes in the scheme of things Bushie. And you’re left with what – more anger and rage at having been seen another grand hope evaporate.
You guys here, especially you Jane, have a lot of talent. Yet you’re wasting your time over what is essentially chump change in the hall of fame of Bush crimes. And you don’t have much to show for besides anger and vindictiveness – as exemplifed by your inability to respond to what I said with anything more than insider prattle.
It’s really sad.
RE this post and MSM post below, I think there is one good thing about that WH reporter Gregory’s interview with Elizabeth Edwards when he tried to find some nuggets of truth in Coulter’s hills of dung. Gregory certainly revealed a double standard. People who have been ‘angry’ and ’shrill’ about killing thousand of American troops, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens and wasting billions of dollars and decades of US national security (and paving the way for that with lies) have been effectively banished from MSM. But people like Coulter get special treatment, and their nonsense is sifted and searched for little nanoscopic grains of truthiness. A heckofa big deal should be made out of that double standard, and we should demand equal consideration. We can make the case that the progressives are at least as worthy, I would hope. There is some use of naughty words, but Coulter expresses mucn worse intent with only slightly more politeness. We have found what the sauce is for the goose, so why is it not also for the gander. (Assume Coulter is the goose here, for sake of argument) I hope the corporate media can be shamed into airing more of the rule-of-law side regarding the Plame/Libby/Cheney affair.
forgive if posted previously:
The real reason Scooter Libby wasn’t actually pardoned
Please note the reason for the commuting of Scooter’s sentence is so that Scooter can still claim the 5th Amendment in further investigations of Bush, Rove, and Cheney.
Scooter still has an appeal pending, so he can still claim the 5th. A pardon now would have allowed Scooter to be forced to testify without limitation. The pardon will come right after the November 2008 election
(this from BuzzFlash)
LS @ 131
;0)
argosfalcon @ 125
Won’t notice at all. When she receives letters from Quakers there is no title. They don’t recognize titles: Mr. Mrs., Ms., President, Sir, etc. They address the person by their name. Giving a person a title sets them apart and condones a caste system. All are equal – No titles. I address George W. Bush by his name. Don’t sweat it. She’s used to it.
the golux @ 129
that’s funny
Loo Hoo. @ 140
And don’t forget Dershowitz and the other Amici Illuminati!
Jeebus DC Demos. Just exactly what does it take to light a fire under you?
GSD @ 69
This might be a reference to Elliot Abrams, who was convicted in Iran-Contra and then pardoned along with the others. He’s now an “advisor” in the WH on Middle Eastern affairs, last I knew, and may have been part of the WHIG.
Bob in HI
trifecta @ 111
Hi, hope you do not mind that I sent your suggestions along to “
viewerservices@msnbc.com and Dabrams@msnbc.com” just a moment ago?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 147
They are drafting non-binding resolutions as we speak!
It would be interesting to know where all the pressures for this Libby thing came from.
trifecta @ 150
Teh funny. In a macabre way.
trifecta @ 150
“non-binding”? Oh goody! ;0)
Faugh, it stinks in here. Did someone step in troll?
I do have one stupid question… if our instinct is right, and that somewhere out there (in Scooter’s head or wherever) is the smoking gun, connecting Cheney and possibly shrub directly to illegality with respect to the war, then how does shrubco plan to keep their secrets hidden past 2009? Presumably, they can all still be prosecuted for it, and, Obama aside, presumably a Dem president won’t be dangling any pardons. Short of all moving to Dubai and Paraguay, why do they think they can keep themselves out of prison?
redink @ 141
Oh, how condescending! Didn’t your Mother teach you better?
Mods: fix up my #151 pls. tnx. (’came’ not ‘can’)
Norman Pearlstine thinks that the Libby commutation will provide him cover in the civil suit.
Redink @141,
You say a lot of time was wasted here on what you label as small potatoes. First of all, there is NO ONE who does not realize that Libby is directly linked to Bush and Cheney on this crime of exposure of Plame’s name, and lied to keep them safe. Not small potatoes.
Secondly, have you seen how extremely it has been to bring to justice any of the many crimes committed by bushCo? As soon as they commit one, they invent a law to cover themselves. FINALLY, we had a Prosecutor willing to take on one of them. (AND I believe he is a Republian Prosecutor if I remember correctly). There was a great sense of justice being served here, and Jane and the rest of her crew should be applauded for their work, and allowed their rage over this treasonous act.
I haven’t seen anyone remark on this point yet:
Why commute rather than pardon? Because the public has been thoroughly prepped on the pardon issue. Most people know what it means, on more than one level.
Commutation, on the other hand, is more complex. The average Joe Sixpak has no idea what it means.
Try it as a flyer coverpage:
“Obstruction of Justice Pardon = Coverup”
vs.
“Obstruction of Justice Commutation = Coverup”
Which is easier to understand?
This is maybe the Bright Shiny Object ploy in reverse: The old ugly rock ploy. That’s what you put your front door key under, because no one would ever think of looking there.
Bob in HI
DC Dems, I’m falling out of love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrelPOP518g
TRex @ 154
I know that we’re not suppose to feed the trolls but can the trolls feed the FDL paypal site, please..
Woodhall Hollow @ 158
I can’t see how. A civil Suit is so different. It is on the victim’s side. He can’t be convicted but he can have one whopper of a settlement. Lady Libby may have something to say yet.
Schuster is up on Hardballs.
Whoa, Tweety is actually bringing up the O word!!! Thank God for small miracles!!! ;-)
Well I’m trying my best to behave in a manner that will not reflect poorly on those of us that want something done about this. When this all broke I had to take a nitro just to calm down, I rarely swear but I’ve been temped to swear out loud the last few hours. Maybe its time for some Babylon 5, no wait that won’t help that a story about a rouge government aligned with the forces of evil. Well maybe Tremors, no the worms look to much like the VP.
QuakerGirl @ 164
I was under the impression that there was no 5th amendment protection in a civil court, but Ianal, so what do I know.
And I am wondering about Lady Libby as well. She is one person who is likely to be pissed about the lack of a pardon, as it means that there is no “moving on” with life as long as this drags on in the courts.
The good thing is that Bush has now crowned himself (or rather Addington and Cheney crowned him) Co-Conspirator-in-Chief, by acknowledging Libby’s guilt and creating a situation that effectively and obviously obstructs justice in the still open CIA leak case, as well as in the Wilson’s lawsuit.
I think he had the “deer in the headlights” look while making his statement today, because he realized it after he did it.
He is once again between Iraq and a hardspot.
thank you Bergs at 159. It was nice to get an adult expression of opinion instead of silly namecalling.
I appreciate your opinion, though mine is different.
I do admire the talent and energy of the people of who keep this site pounding away (as well as all those many others who do the same at other blog sites). It’s the fixation that strikes me as counterproductive and wasteful. And substituting witless namecalling for debate is not very attractive either. You could get that from the Ann Coulter’s of the world.
David Shuster starting at Fox just amazes me. I always look forward to his reports. NBC should realize what a gem they have there.
April Ryan will be up. She’s the woman in the press corps wearing the red dress who told Snow he was being flippant.
Tony Snow acknowledged that several people were involved in the decision to commute (read obstruct), so now we have an admitted conspiracy which goes directly back to the underlying crime.
Fitz!?
LS @ 168
It is wonderful to see some of the obscene things he has done to himself, and so publicly.
trifecta @ 170
Tell me your joking…
I’m curious and have another question for some of the legal eagles or those just wishing to weigh in. How will this effect the pending civil trial on the matter…or maybe it won’t? Does this deliberate obstruction of justice aka a commutation in Bushworld jargon (right up there with clear skies and healthy forest), change anything in regards to that trial and are Shrubya and the Dick branches of gov’t still on the hook for that? Will it impact (help,hinder no change) what may occur in the civil trial at all?
LS @ 173
Tony Snow was in way over his head today. My bet is that at the next press conference, he will be firmly on message, eg, it is the WH’s policy not to comment about an ongoing legal matter. Etc.
Maybe this is what Fitz has been waiting for all along.
It’s not about the ’supporters’ because, even then, THEY ARE THE MINORITY! Clearly, the polls show that over 60% of those polled oppose this administration’s decisions!
This is about grossly malignant criminal activity!
I have not heard any reaction from the CIA yet. One would think that career people who knew and respected Valerie’s work might be a bit pissed today.
trifecta @ 179
Have we ever heard any commentary from the CIA?
Woodhall Hollow @ 176
I can see him sitting on the floor frantically trying to remove his foot from their collective mouths.
Joe Wilson,
If you stop in here, you were tough strong great on Hardball.
Jacqrat @ 149
Thanks for those e-mails. I just sent a note asking why they continue to foist Tucker off on us. Not that it will do any good mind you.
The CIA would never openly make a statement but who knows what might be happen at “the farm” right now.
Subpoena Tony Snow ASAP.
Tweety asked Joe Wilson if this commutation is part of the cover-up.
Wilson says yes, to protect VP and possibly Bush himself.
redink @ 169
First, FDL is not ‘Fixated’ on Plamegate! Second, If you would read the Posts/Comments daily, you would most assuredly walk away with the impression we are ‘Fixated’ on all of the Shrub Maladministration’s perversion of the Constitution and administration of Justice!!! Scooter’s commutation is simply the latest outrage!!!
Tweety asked Joe Wilson if this commutation is part of the cover-up.
Wilson says yes, to protect VP and possibly Bush himself.
Wilson said Congress should use every tool available to them. Abuse of power.
my too sense @ 175
What civil trial?
Loo Hoo. @ 187
Ding! Say it loud and say it clear! That is a talking point that is not only true, but easy to say and easy to understand.
Tweety just can’t help himself. He had to throw in a “particularly Hillary Clinton” question.
Snow did not look at all well, aside from the spin workout he had.
boxer @ 189
The Wilson’s have filed a civil suit against Shrub!!!
trifecta @ 179
No doubt Poppy offered to help straighten things out there while the three dictators of differing styles were hobnobbing about this up at the homestead in Maine.
Former CIA analyst, Ray McGovern’s thoughts on an impeachment strategy.
CTuttle @ 193
You can’t bring a civil suit against a sitting President. Otherwise, every President would spend all of their time defending lawsuits.
Our responsibility, especially us lawyers, is to make sure everyone understands enough law so that when the BushCo. pundits cry “boo-hoo”that Scooter wasn’t given a full pardon, they are exposed as nothing but cynical crocodile tears and totally disingenuous. The truth is that a full Presidential pardon is the only thing that would have legally freed Scooter to be compelled to testify under oath about Bush, Cheney & Rove’s crimes. Anything else would allow him to assert his privilege to remain silent, even when subpoenaed. The Bush supporters really want a pardon for Scooter even less than the most left-leaning partisan Democrat, but the unfairness of the commutation is the cynical spin they have to spew in order to keep their base happy, and more importantly, to deflect the attention from the true motivation for the commutation–to keep Scooter quiet.
In that regard, keep in mind that as long as Scooter still retains his conviction and his appeal is pending, it is theoretically possible for his conviction to be reversed and for him to be granted a new trial, at which any statements he would make now could be used against him. That is why there is no quid pro quo now for trading his testimony for immunity. He can’t be immunized for what has already occurred (the prosecution and conviction), and yet since he might theoretically be prosecuted again, I would argue that even with his sentece commuted, he still retains his privilege to remain silent and can’t be compelled to talk. That’s the beauty of the commutation, as opposed to a pardon. It leaves Scooter still “twisting slowly in the wind” protected only by his silence–just like Bush, Cheney & Rove.
Thanks for letting me draft my Op-Ed right here at FDL.
Ed*ard Teller @ 195
I agree. This seems more like a Poppy strategy, since it protects, above all, the shrub. I think Cheney would’ve gone right for a pardon, and then tried to sheild Libby from any Capitol Hill testimony by invoking (once again) executive privilege.
You boxer @ 196
You mean like the Paula Jones case? Precedent baby.
Woodhall Hollow @ 195
Now thats food for thought.
boxer @ 196
Wilson and Plame brought a civil suit against Scooter. Sorry for the confusion.
Hardball: Matthews gets it. He interviews Wilson for a very long time. I know a lot of people here give him grief but he has opposed the Iraq war unlike most of the rest of the traditional media, and now that coalesces powerfully with his interest in the Plame Wilson case.
There would never have been such attention to this case without the efforts of Jane, Christy, and Marcy. This is one for the history books.
Good Post
Hell yes fucking hog wash. This is nothing more than a criminal running from the law. What these “journalist” are saying is just as disgusting as what he did.
My email to MSNBC viewer services….
QuakerGirl @ 202
the precedent in the Paula Jones case was that the president could only be sued for things he did before he became president. Not while.
Otis Is Right!
Thanks for dropping the “F-Bomb”, Jane. It aligns you with most Americans in how we all feel today about what Joe Wilson describes as “the corrupt administration FROM TOP TO BOTTOM” and the aftershocks of yet another amazingly stupid decision from our illustrious Commander in Grief.
What a superior ass…..
I’d love to see him and Cheney….someday in my lifetime….do some serious jailtime… ~~~Edited for content by moderators.~~~
trifecta @ 199
Thanks for making my point. Jones v. Clinton involved a cause of action that arose PRIOR to Clinton becoming President, not something he did during office.
why we can’t wait until 2009:
Woodhall Hollow @ 205
Also others are named in the suit: Cheney, Rove, Armatage and there may be others.
boxer @ 196
My bad! Leveled against Scooter, and I believe Cheney!
egregious @ 202
I don’t watch cable news much it was surprising to see a couple of the talking heads actually get it right for once. Paul Begala of all people was good on CNN and Matthews was good on MSNBC. Tucker was his usual self-important fact free self. He did not that I noticed disclose his father’s connection to Scooter’s defense fund but then that would require a minimal level of honesty, a concept that Carlson has yet to come across.
Go with the “please the base” theme. And if you don’t approve of the action, then you are not part of Bush’s base. In fact, you’re probably a Democrat.
If 2/3 of Republicans don’t identify with the scofflaw Republican base –OK with me.
Of course this Libby thing was a coverup, and payoff and a blatant obstruction. Obvious to everyone except the Democrats in Washington however. I am seething and percolating.
RE: The Civil Case Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson vs. Scooter (and maybe others).
My take on it is that Scooter still retains his 5th Amendment privilege not to testify but his defenses could be striken if he doesn’t. That will make it hard for him to “win” the case. If the case is assigned to friendly judge however, it could be officially stayed or unofficially “left behind the file cabinet” or put on the slow docket until all the criminal proceedings are concluded (or the statute of limitations runs on Bush, Cheney & Rove’s crimes.
Woodhall Hollow @ 195
thanks! a worthy read
Hugh @ 212
Remember in times past when this was called “a conflict of interest” under ethics.
CTuttle @ 211
No problem CTuttle. It’s just that a lot of lawyers are on this site and we’re compulsive about precision.
What if Judge Watson’s point-clarification on the probation prompts George W. to furrow his brow even further and say, “Ya’ know what? After careful consideration, Ah’ve decided ta pardon Scooter.”
Speaking of Libby’s appeal. I am thinking that Bush didn’t make any friends on the DC circut by telling the american people that the judges were out of line.
I am guessing that they are not going to be particularly well disposed towards Libby’s appeal and that there is a snowball’s chance in hell that he will ever get a new trial.
Which means that Bush will eventually be forced to pardon, and I hope to hell that the ‘09 congress has the fortitude to then call his ass up before a committee to testify. As well as a whole host of other admin officials such as Rove, Fleisher, Armitage, Cathie Martin etc etc. It was a huge mistake to let the Iran Contra matter die as they did. I hope they have learned their lesson.
Hugh @ 213
The guy on npr (i think it was EJ Dionne) was pretty good as well, and pretty effectively put the smirking David Brooks in his place.
I spent some time working on paleoclimates and its not just “civilization” in the last 12,000 year, there are points at 30,000 and 60,000 that are just as important (really if you look at it from 200,000 to the present the climate and humans have been in a dance, up till now climate has always been leading, I’ll drop the metaphor for someone more creative).
Thanks to those who have responded about my question regarding the civil lawsuit…and yes I believe there are still some unnamed individuals in that suit. Check out their website here on the matter.
If Pelosi won’t start impeachment proceeding for political reasons the entire Democratic electorate should let her know that we will do everything in our power to elect another Dem in her place.
s… #208
I really like Monbiot from the Guardian. I read him all the time. ;0)
I don’t think Matthews is going to let go of this. You can see it in his eyes.
Other Pat @ 218
Then Scootie can be questioned about Big Dick, right?
RevDeb @ 61
Bill Otis was a walking set of White House talking points, but I agree completely on the lack of familiarity with the actual case. The NewsHour seems addicted to a mealymouthed, Administration leaning kind of mediocrity punctuated with out and out Administration water carrying.
WH @220
The appeal is only useful for existing as long as possible. It is already clear from the appellate court’s refusal to grant bail that they are not going to reverse the conviction. What matters is how long they take to say so, (and then how long Scooter’s lawyers can drag out the further appeals process as well.If it gets to the the Supreme Court, then I’d be more worried that Scooter might actually win a reversal. That would also preserve his 5th Amendment privilege.)
The interesting question is whether a pardon at anytime time prior to the expiration of the statute of limitations on BuchCo’s crimes is going to happen. I’m betting that he doesn’t do it, not even on his last day in office.
Bubble Boy’s gift of a Get Out of Jail Free card for Scooter “Paris Hilton” Libby is the Smoking Gun.
Which will soon become a Mushroom Cloud — All Over the Presidency.
I urge my Speaker, once again, to start impeachment proceedings against Richard Cheney at once.
argosfalcon @ 221
Once they figure out how to package the contract to reverse climate change so that Halliburton will get the job in a no-bid, cost-plus deal, the GOP machine will warm to the idea of protecting the coastal cities.
ReneND @ 225
Schuster really one upped him on his (Tweetys) own show yesterday.. may have helped.
selise @ 209 – great article. thanks for sharing.
Pachacutec @ 96
If we can’t feed ‘em, please allow us to roast ‘em !!! *g*
Oklahoma kiddo @ 231
Your speaker won’t do this because she wants to move the progressive platform ahead and she knows that impeachment without a conviction is a win for the right.
Check’s in the mail, Jane — call it my second quarter subscription.
And the impeachment brownies are on the table…or they will be as soon as I upload my pictures.
Hubby is weirded out about them, but I suspect they will taste the same with or without the IMPEACHMENT on them.
Ed*ard Teller @ 232
I think it will be a time and materials kind of job.
boxer @ 218
True, I oughta know better, I am a PoliSci/Paralegal degree holder!!! ;-)
Ooooo. The NY Times is even thinking along the same lines about this commutation being a slap in the face of judges.
Right up at the top of the front page!
I’ve missed most of the discussion but just want to add that I now hold Congress in contempt of the American people for not keeping these rabid dogs on a short leash.
I just love how Libby apologists say there was no underlying crime, no one was charged blah blah. There’s a body bleeding in the room, it’s clearly murder, and no one’s charged. Ergo, no underlying crime?? They’re still braying that.
Sheesh.
Woodhall Hollow @ 190
And Bush-41 wants Bush-43 protected, because otherwise Bush-43 could well end up formally charged, and there would go the precious family name. Must have been quite a weekend.
Wonder if attacking Iran is off the table.
Poppy must be feeling conflicted, with the WaPo attacks on Cheney getting neutralized by having to make sure Scooter doesn’t talk.
Blub @ 155
Do we have extradition treaties with UAE and/or Paraguay?
The lawyer they had on NewsHour tonight, I think her name was Margaret Love, worked for justice during the Clinton administration. She was very polite and tried to point out that commutation was just unusual for this president. The other lawyer, did the no underlying crime, yadda, yadda, yadda. Could Margaret Love have spoken so gingerly because she actually has a pardon request in front of president bush? Geez, fair and balanced PBS, I don’t think so.
Petrocelli @ 235
Stranger! You’re back! I’ve missed your witty repartee!!! *g*
boxer @ 236
‘Hearings’ are what’s important. I don’t give a hoot about conviction.
Rayne @ 237
He’ll just have to eat them with his eyes closed.
The bottom line on all this is that Gonzales needs to be impeached. As long as he is running the DOJ, no one is going to investigate anything in the WH and impeachment of Bush/Cheney won’t happen. This is all loyalty. If the loyalty chain is broken, it all comes undone. Libby was loyal to the end, and, as was part of the plan, they got him out of jail.
With the make up of the Senate, the progressive platform is dead. Madam Speaker should at least make some headway in showing the American Public what crooks we have in office. Maybe then MSM will develop some spine instead of prancing around like parrots.
GeorgeSimian @ 248
The sad thing is, that anyone they would come up with to replace Abu would be one in the same. They absolutely can not allow the cat to be let out of the bag. They know it’s bad, bad, bad.
FYI, PW is upstairs
Oklahoma kiddo @ 246
Who says there won’t be conviction. If you had said in 2003 that Bush would have a 20% approval rating and the Repugs would be everyone’s idea of what not to do in politics, they’d have laughed and called you unpatriotic.
CTuttle @ 245
Hectic weekend, tons of great jazz, food, drinks … met up with a couple of nephews I hadn’t seen in ages …
How ya doin’, CT ?
LS @ 168
Don’t you love it?
Great Petro! Come join the new Thread!!!
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..t/#respond
trifecta @ 170
What?
Loo Hoo. @ 254
Bush has gotten out of so many of thee spots that it’s impossible to think that he will ever be convicted for any crimes.
And with the Dems firmly throwing in the towel …
redink @ 112
My prediction: more Republicans and Independents abandon him, and he breaks 25% in new approval polls.
Respectfully disagree.
Clinton’s impeachment was percieved as a major liability by the Dems
To the degree that Gore disassociated himself from eight years of uncommon prosperity, to the detriment of his campaign.
I know he won, but it should have been more decisive.
Cheney should be impeached and tried, followed by Bush.
Oh, and for all you Firefox boosters out there, how can I hit backspace while editing without going back to the previous page.
Frickin driving me nuts – this comment has taken 5 minutes to type.
boxer @ 236
“Fucking hogwash.” :o)
Damn straight, Jane. :o)
That’s what it is.
If H.L Mencken were alive today; no “we are a nation of mendacity.”
It would be:
“We are a nation of fucking hogwash.” :o)
boxer @ 196
It’s against Libby and Cheney and maybe Rove. Cheney is saying he’s bullet-proof just the same way Bush is.
GeorgeSimian @ 252
While I completely agree with the majority sentiment presented. We must be realistic about impeachment. If there were no tapes of Nixon’s conversations showing his complicity in Watergate, he would not have resigned. He MIGHT have been impeached, but he would have been acquitted. Book it that the Bush admin. has learned all the mistakes that Nixon made – and has complete plausible deniability for the President. We will not find a smoking gun regarding Bush. Under its current make-up there are not enough Senators for a conviction vote – period (think Lieberman)..Impeachment with acquittal is a loss for demos. and America. It doesn’t change anything and will only be used by the right as an example of how Bush was NOT GUILTY, the opposite of what is true. However, impeachment and conviction of Cheney and Gonzo is possible and would help the country and the progressive cause. Let’s do something that might actually get results, not just complain about how we wish things were different.
egregious @ 202
Matthews has also been digging into Iran.
JebbieTeacher @ 180
Since when would we expect to hear any public comment from the CIA?
Bob in HI
redink @ 140
I am not a troll….I just sent FDL $50 today. But I do think we should pay attention to these comments, because I think we can get so consumed with something relatively small that we lose focus on the larger issue. What are we gonna do about the crooks & liars in the WH other than blog to each other (preach to the converted) and make phone calls to a line that is turned off? I feel helpless, but I’m not sure how to be more effective. How can we really effect a change? I’m not convinced that redink is a troll…maybe just thinking all of this typing isn’t accomplishing much. I would love to do more.
Sorry, I probably should go back to lurking fron the sidelines….
With respect to Scooter’s 5th Amendment rights, could he still be forced to testify under a grant of limited immunity under which any testimony cannot be used against him in any retrial (if necessary) of his case, or used against him in his appeal or other criminal proceeding (unless he perjures himself again)? I doubt that Scooter’s testimony, if it could ever be obtained, would be worth much. How many times can one a**hole say “I don’t recall”?
Bob Schacht @ 264
Larry Johnson – Ex CIA – Had this on his blog
GeorgeSimian @ 248
Yup.
Petrocelli, did you have a happy Canada Day?
redink @ 140
You may have a point, redink, although outing a covert CIA agent and thereby her associations, is no triviality! This is simply just one major tragedy of many with this administration! It’s either a question of focus or diffraction/distraction. This is nothing short of treasonous behavior and the ultimate obstruction of American Justice!
Whatever cause you want to choose, at least do something like letting your congressional leadership know we, as American Citizens, want punitive and criminal action!
msmolly @ 265
No you’re pretty much dead on.
New Bullshit thread :)
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-bullshit/
Loo Hoo. @ 270
Yes and then some !!! *g*
We partied for the entire weekend, went to the Jazz Festival, etc.
msmolly @ 266
Feel free to share your comments … these threads are about progressive action from certain perspectives and do not mean to be all- encompassing. However, if we follow the guidance of Christy, Jane, PW, etc. we will converge with like- minded patriots and usurp this administration from many angles.
What is needed is progressive action and encouragement, not armchair quarterbacks.
Petrocelli @ 275
Petro-celli
newtonusr @ 276
How’s it goin’, newtonusr ?
Petrocelli @ 277
Well, besides trying to phrase the same sentiments as well as you have above (and failing), great!
newtonusr @ 278
I am so juiced … I wished I lived in America, to lead the protest … keep on the pressure … I hope there’re massive demonstrations tomorrow to show these traitors for what they are … see ya on Late Nite, it’s dinnertime for me … ciao …
The USA poll says that 26% of goopers favored a complete pardon and 32% favored what Bush did- that’s about 60% who favored him doing something to eliminate either the jail time or the whole damned conviction—That’s a big enough number to cause a prez who’s on the outs with his own base to act. I don’t know if that’s WHY he acted- but it’s a fair analysis of the facts to say that he might have acted for that reason.
How does commutation work when the Constitution only grants powers of reprieve and pardon?
Since the commutation announcement doesn’t mention concurrent sentences, isn’t there still prison time on the books for Scootah?
rwcole @ 280
when was the poll taken? (before or after bush’s grant of clemency)
Selise- Last night- (same poll Jane references in her post).
I love that teh perfesser came out and said what the governing philosophy of his ilk is – we can screw the country and disregard the wishes of even our own voters as long as we piss off the liberals, because that’s the only platform we have left.
It sort of throws his work into a whole new light, at least if you didn’t already assume that was what was going on (I certainly did).
Congratulations, Republican voters. Professor Reynolds thinks you’re emotionally disturbed and very, very stupid.
And I’ll be willing to bet that as we speak the people who claim to represent you are lined up to agree with him.
The real questions now are:
Why do you think you are in such a superior position to make a sentencing judgment compared to an experienced judge?
What factors did you consider that the sentencing judge did not that compelled you to the judgment that the sentence was excessive?
Would you be critical of a sentencing judge taking these same factors into consideration in future cases when deciding whether to impose a sentence outside the guidelines?
What is the unique feature of this case that compelled your decision to sentence outside the guidelines that you believe would not be present in any other case?
Of course Bush’s reasons for the commutation had nothing to do with the justice of the sentence; it was all to protect himself and Cheney from Libby testimony that could support a criminal action against them. But why not let Bush twist in the wind on this one? Remember, the same arguments can be made against any Republican candidate who voices support for Bush’s decision. Like the Harriet Miers decision, an ill considered hasty decision that is a catastrophe for Bush and the law and order Republicans for years to come.
Truly, the gift that keeps on giving.
Jane Hamsher @ 115
u can do anything u wanna, sweetie
(Good blogger; pat pat pat; give Kobe a hug for us please) ;->
LS @ 131
omg. just had a flashback of kramer driving jerry’s car when the engine overheated…
‘cept’n it’s not even bigtime’s blud, of course…
TRex @ 154
Jane havin’ a lil’ fun, but Kobe’s right on it.
No serious kibbles lost.
redink @ 169
apologies kobe: bless yer lil’ heart ribit. broaden yer horizons; more kibbles not quite hidden in the archives and links, and don’t fergit paypal.
dakine01 @ 183
suggest send Jon to visit his show the way he sank crossedsparks.
Petrocelli @ 235
but the fumes are nauseating.
redink @ 140
Yes, indeed. Redink has made some worthwhile comments and asked some basic questions.
posaune @ 25
This relates to the claims that commutation allows Libby the opportunity to plead the 5th which a pardon wouldn’t.
In my view Libby STILL has to cooperate with Fitz if he is found guilty through all the appeals. He cannot be tried again (and thus doesn’t face double jeopardy) on any standing conviction.
Walton could simply say that Libby has failed to cooperate with Fitz and revoke the probationary part of the sentence. Non-cooperation is NOT what was commuted by Bush…it would be an ADDITIONAL ACT showing non-contrition.
So let’s say that sometime in early 2009 Walton learns that Libby hasn’t been forthrght with Fitz? He could THEN impose the suspended part of the sentence. Bush couldn’t do anything about it.
In addition, if Libby wins his appeal and gets a retrial…and is found guilty AGAIN…Bush would have to issue a NEW Commutation or pardon Libby. He might have to do so for those charges before Libby is actually tried for them. That would look really odd…and clearly mean that Bush is unwilling to allow his minions to face the same laws that everyone else does.
But then Libby will be compelled to testify and lack 5th Amendment protections against self-incrimination. He faces no jeopardy from his testimony at that stage…especally if he is offered immunity.
At some point Libby will be EXPOSED to someone in the DOJ where Bush cannot “protect” him and he cannot plead the fifth if he himself is not in legal jeopardy for testifying. But not testifying truthfully at that point could send him to jail!
OtisIsHungry @ 82
But once Libby’s appeals are completed, which should be sometime this Fall…then he cannot rely on the 5th Amendment…UNLESS the courts order a RETRIAL on the charges…
which voids the current “commuted” convictions…
:-)
So does BUSH let the retrial continue? Or does he pardon in advance? I don’t think one can “commute” non-existent sentences?
Bergs @ 142
Well it keeps the appeals process going, while keeping Scooter out of jail. But the Appeals process would have gone on (likely for another month or two) anyways.
If the courts determine, as Judge Walton predicts, that Libby’s claims have no merit…then at that point he will be in the same boat as if Bush did nothing…or pardoned him.
In fact Walton has a Sword of Damocles over Libby’s head…the probation. If Libby is not cooperative with Fitz subsequent to the Appeals then Walton can rule that Libby is in violation of his PROBATION.
That period lasts for two years from the point of sentencing…or release under normal circumstances (which is what Walton is puzzling about). That would mean that Walton will review the situation sometime in the Spring of 2009 (when Dubya is out of office) and determine if Libby has complied with the terms of his probation.
Judge Walton may get the last laugh yet!
argosfalcon @ 222
When was the last time that there was a oceanic transgression above the current high? I thought that this was a 1 meter increase about 5000 years ago…and perhaps related to human activities then.
I don’t recall any transgressions other than that one above the current sea level throughout human prehistory (or the Plio-Pleistocene). In fact, it l0oks as if twe are going to approach temperatures (and CO2 levels) that haven’t been matched in 50 million years.