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	<title>Comments on: Sentence First, Verdict After</title>
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		<title>By: Mellifluous</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792827</link>
		<dc:creator>Mellifluous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792827</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“They hate us for our freedoms.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Not any more. BushCo. took them away…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“They hate us for our freedoms.”</p>
<p>Not any more. BushCo. took them away…</p>
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		<title>By: Jesterfox</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792798</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesterfox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792798</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-792438&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;QuakerGirl @ 26&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-792433&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;landofthefree @ 22&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do we restore habeas corpus? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How do we ensure that those who are suspected as being terrorists are not sentenced first, and (possibly) eventually tried for crimes later? I continue to be baffled by the argument that “the enemy combatants are not American citizens, and they’re not fighting for a country’s army, so they don’t get the &lt;b&gt;luxury&lt;/b&gt; of habeas corpus or international laws like Geneva Conventions.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is astonishing to me how one event on one day caused many Americans to completely erase the desire to be fair and just.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That one day is the excuse needed to justify the master determining who is guilty and who is not guilty. Barbarism is one layer beneath the surface. It takes consciousness and awareness to face it within ourselves and rise above it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Surprisingly, even Captain Kirk got this right. Speaking of our barbaric natture, “We just have to tell ourselves ‘We will not kill today’”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-792438"><em>QuakerGirl @ 26</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-792433"><em>landofthefree @ 22</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>How do we restore habeas corpus? </p>
<p>How do we ensure that those who are suspected as being terrorists are not sentenced first, and (possibly) eventually tried for crimes later? I continue to be baffled by the argument that “the enemy combatants are not American citizens, and they’re not fighting for a country’s army, so they don’t get the <b>luxury</b> of habeas corpus or international laws like Geneva Conventions.</p>
<p>It is astonishing to me how one event on one day caused many Americans to completely erase the desire to be fair and just.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>That one day is the excuse needed to justify the master determining who is guilty and who is not guilty. Barbarism is one layer beneath the surface. It takes consciousness and awareness to face it within ourselves and rise above it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Surprisingly, even Captain Kirk got this right. Speaking of our barbaric natture, “We just have to tell ourselves ‘We will not kill today’”.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynic</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792780</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 18:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792780</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Christy:&lt;br /&gt;
Let me direct you to another confrontation Alice has with the White Queen.&lt;br /&gt;
“Now you take the Knave,” said the Queen. “He’s in jail now, being punished, and the trial doesn’t even start until next week, and of course, the crime comes last of all.”&lt;br /&gt;
“But what if he never commits the crime?”&lt;br /&gt;
“Well, that would be all the better, wouldn’t it…..better and better, and better.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That, I think is what the thugs in Washington want.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christy:<br />
Let me direct you to another confrontation Alice has with the White Queen.<br />
“Now you take the Knave,” said the Queen. “He’s in jail now, being punished, and the trial doesn’t even start until next week, and of course, the crime comes last of all.”<br />
“But what if he never commits the crime?”<br />
“Well, that would be all the better, wouldn’t it…..better and better, and better.”</p>
<p>That, I think is what the thugs in Washington want.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792635</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 17:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792635</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;On top of all his other misdeeds, our Harvard MBA is wasting tens of millions of dollars or more in setting up and defending these CSRT’s and related proceedings essentially in order to hide his mistakes.  The buyers of Harkin Energy got off cheap by comparison.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One of the most important aspects of the impeachment, trial and conviction of Mr. Bush would be to expose his crimes and make him pay some of this back.  That would put his infatuation with hugely unfair tax cuts - designed to keep the tax man off his family trust funds (as well as all others similarly situated) - in proper perspective.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Impeachment or no, one of the grisly tasks of his successor will be to evaluate his misdeeds, including his prisoner detentions in Gitmo, and compensate those unfairly wronged.  For many of these men, that must include a right of permanent abode in the US, since they are so badly damaged few other countries will take them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On top of all his other misdeeds, our Harvard MBA is wasting tens of millions of dollars or more in setting up and defending these CSRT’s and related proceedings essentially in order to hide his mistakes.  The buyers of Harkin Energy got off cheap by comparison.</p>
<p>One of the most important aspects of the impeachment, trial and conviction of Mr. Bush would be to expose his crimes and make him pay some of this back.  That would put his infatuation with hugely unfair tax cuts &#8211; designed to keep the tax man off his family trust funds (as well as all others similarly situated) &#8211; in proper perspective.</p>
<p>Impeachment or no, one of the grisly tasks of his successor will be to evaluate his misdeeds, including his prisoner detentions in Gitmo, and compensate those unfairly wronged.  For many of these men, that must include a right of permanent abode in the US, since they are so badly damaged few other countries will take them.</p>
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		<title>By: im4mary</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792598</link>
		<dc:creator>im4mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:56:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792598</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Brisingiman @ 100&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To a degree, I agree with you.  Many Americans have squandered what ever wealth they may have accumulated by their own ‘gotta have it now’ attitude, with consequential astronomical debt.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But, that doesn’t apply to a growing number of Americans who are working at least 2 minimum wage jobs just to pay the rent, utilities, and other basic necessities.  Many people literally can’t afford to have a savings account.  And for what?  Less than 1% annual compound interest?  We’re losing money!  Who’s making it?  Hmmmmm, those we elected?  Damn but they’ve got it made!  And on the backs of hardworking Americans who struggle to pay their taxes, let alone trying to save money!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That’s not even touching the millions of lost jobs many have sustained from international outsourcing! &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We are living in an upside-down world.  You can guess that the only thing that really trickles down is s***!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brisingiman @ 100</p>
<p>To a degree, I agree with you.  Many Americans have squandered what ever wealth they may have accumulated by their own ‘gotta have it now’ attitude, with consequential astronomical debt.</p>
<p>But, that doesn’t apply to a growing number of Americans who are working at least 2 minimum wage jobs just to pay the rent, utilities, and other basic necessities.  Many people literally can’t afford to have a savings account.  And for what?  Less than 1% annual compound interest?  We’re losing money!  Who’s making it?  Hmmmmm, those we elected?  Damn but they’ve got it made!  And on the backs of hardworking Americans who struggle to pay their taxes, let alone trying to save money!</p>
<p>That’s not even touching the millions of lost jobs many have sustained from international outsourcing! </p>
<p>We are living in an upside-down world.  You can guess that the only thing that really trickles down is s***!</p>
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		<title>By: Brisingamen</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792546</link>
		<dc:creator>Brisingamen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792546</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-792505&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;im4mary @ 89&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt; Their pensions should be restricted to the amount Americans receive in Social Security.  Heck, that’s what their salary should be!  Maybe then they’d begin to understand what a fixed income really means!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Apologies in advance, this is a former Social Security Administration employee rant:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Social Security was NEVER meant to be a retiree’s sole income. The potential SS beneficiary was supposed to be working for an employer that had a pension program, and was expected to have some savings for retirement purposes as well.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Republicans have allowed many companies to welsh on their pension promises. I agree that this is NOT the employees fault.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Many employees are guilty of not using 401(k) plans and IRAs to their maximum benefit. If your not contributing to an IRA or 401(k), start. Even $5 a paycheck is better than doing nothing.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;People, YOU are responsible for your financial security. If you’re making money, you should be putting some of it away for a rainy day. I’m getting tired of those who play grasshopper and then cry that “Social Security doesn’t pay enough.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-792505"><em>im4mary @ 89</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p> Their pensions should be restricted to the amount Americans receive in Social Security.  Heck, that’s what their salary should be!  Maybe then they’d begin to understand what a fixed income really means!</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Apologies in advance, this is a former Social Security Administration employee rant:</p>
<p>Social Security was NEVER meant to be a retiree’s sole income. The potential SS beneficiary was supposed to be working for an employer that had a pension program, and was expected to have some savings for retirement purposes as well.</p>
<p>The Republicans have allowed many companies to welsh on their pension promises. I agree that this is NOT the employees fault.</p>
<p>Many employees are guilty of not using 401(k) plans and IRAs to their maximum benefit. If your not contributing to an IRA or 401(k), start. Even $5 a paycheck is better than doing nothing.</p>
<p>People, YOU are responsible for your financial security. If you’re making money, you should be putting some of it away for a rainy day. I’m getting tired of those who play grasshopper and then cry that “Social Security doesn’t pay enough.”</p>
<p>We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.</p>
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		<title>By: -ck-</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792530</link>
		<dc:creator>-ck-</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792530</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;We should remember that history has been kinder to Winston Churchill than his contemporaries. When the War ended, the British people booted him to the curb — in large part because of fantasies of Empire. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;India and the rest of the colonies were demanding independence, but acted like the old woman with a broom, trying to sweep back the tides of history. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;For Churchill, that whole “practice what we preach” thingy didn’t apply to Britannia Rex.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We should remember that history has been kinder to Winston Churchill than his contemporaries. When the War ended, the British people booted him to the curb — in large part because of fantasies of Empire. </p>
<p>India and the rest of the colonies were demanding independence, but acted like the old woman with a broom, trying to sweep back the tides of history. </p>
<p>For Churchill, that whole “practice what we preach” thingy didn’t apply to Britannia Rex.</p>
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		<title>By: rwcole</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792525</link>
		<dc:creator>rwcole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792525</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As I understand it, THIS appeal was just to over rule Walton’s decision to put him in the slammer pending the appeal of the conviction. Obviously- there isn’t much time for further appeals on that front- as the cops are warming up a jail cell for him now.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If this is it- and I suspect it is- then Clusterfuck will have to decide soon whether to keep his loyal attack dog out of the hoosecow.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, THIS appeal was just to over rule Walton’s decision to put him in the slammer pending the appeal of the conviction. Obviously- there isn’t much time for further appeals on that front- as the cops are warming up a jail cell for him now.</p>
<p>If this is it- and I suspect it is- then Clusterfuck will have to decide soon whether to keep his loyal attack dog out of the hoosecow.</p>
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		<title>By: Christy Hardin Smith</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792513</link>
		<dc:creator>Christy Hardin Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792513</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;BREAKING NEWS:  Libby denied bond pending appeal by the three judge panel.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/breaking-libby-motion-for-release-on-bond-pending-appeal-denied/&quot;&gt;Fresh thread&lt;/a&gt; up and running on it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BREAKING NEWS:  Libby denied bond pending appeal by the three judge panel.  <a href="http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/breaking-libby-motion-for-release-on-bond-pending-appeal-denied/">Fresh thread</a> up and running on it.</p>
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		<title>By: QuakerGirl</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792512</link>
		<dc:creator>QuakerGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 16:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/07/02/sentence-first-verdict-after/#comment-792512</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-792473&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;james @ 57&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Completely off-topic but worth thinking about:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In the wake of the “terror” attacks in Britain, the Fox affiliate here in the NY metro area has started showing pictures of cops at the airports armed with automatic weapons and has been asking people if they feel safer with an armed presence, not only within the airport on Port Authority territory, but in the surrounding streets, within the jurisdiction of the NYPD. The overwhelming response has been, “Of course I feel safer. It’s gonna take some getting used to ,seeing cops armed with these weapons, but I feel safer.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And that’s the point. Slowly, quietly, there will be an increased presence of heavily armed cops, possibly troops in the streets, ostensibly because of the events in Britain, which, I believe were manipulated to send a subliminal message to America: Don’t change horses in the middle of a stream. Stay the course. Look, terrorism in Britain just after Blair stepped down. Trust Bush.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Call me paranoid (others have) but I don’t like the idea of a media outlet trying to get people to feel comfortable about armed troops in the street.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s a prelude to martial law without a shot being fired.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s all in the plan! The NeoCons will not (may I repeat, WILL NOT) let go of power. The steps are so obvious, incremental, just like Natzi Germany and the people agreed it was for their safety. I used to count on my parents being the watch dogs. Now I am the watch dog. We are strength in numbers.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-792473"><em>james @ 57</em></a></p>
<blockquote><p>Completely off-topic but worth thinking about:</p>
<p>In the wake of the “terror” attacks in Britain, the Fox affiliate here in the NY metro area has started showing pictures of cops at the airports armed with automatic weapons and has been asking people if they feel safer with an armed presence, not only within the airport on Port Authority territory, but in the surrounding streets, within the jurisdiction of the NYPD. The overwhelming response has been, “Of course I feel safer. It’s gonna take some getting used to ,seeing cops armed with these weapons, but I feel safer.”</p>
<p>And that’s the point. Slowly, quietly, there will be an increased presence of heavily armed cops, possibly troops in the streets, ostensibly because of the events in Britain, which, I believe were manipulated to send a subliminal message to America: Don’t change horses in the middle of a stream. Stay the course. Look, terrorism in Britain just after Blair stepped down. Trust Bush.”</p>
<p>Call me paranoid (others have) but I don’t like the idea of a media outlet trying to get people to feel comfortable about armed troops in the street.</p>
<p>It’s a prelude to martial law without a shot being fired.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>It’s all in the plan! The NeoCons will not (may I repeat, WILL NOT) let go of power. The steps are so obvious, incremental, just like Natzi Germany and the people agreed it was for their safety. I used to count on my parents being the watch dogs. Now I am the watch dog. We are strength in numbers.</p>
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