Even as Michael Moore‘s latest film Sicko opens to excellent reviews, the US media seems to have spent much of the past few weeks doing America’s health-care industry a big fat favor by using bogus ‘information’ to undermine Moore’s call for single-payer health care.
You’d never know it from Howard Kurtz or Jeff Greenfield, but most Americans want exactly what Moore says they should have: Single-payer health care. Yet Kurtz, Greenfield and other GOP/Media Complex stalwarts are doing their damndest to pretend that, just as with the opposition to the Iraq atrocity, only fringeoid wacky-tackies would hold such opinions. (Meanwhile, CNN’s Glenn Beck — who has fantasized on the air about murdering Michael Moore — is apparently considered to be nice, mainstream and respectable by our GOP/Media moguls.)
Then again, why should we expect anything different from these people? As Media Matters reader Rajesh points out (and as I’ve found out through sad experience), they routinely snuff letters dissecting Bush in favor of the worst pro-Bush garbage so as to keep a “balance” that exists only in their heads and in those of the Republican National Committee zampolit to whom they apparently report on a regular basis. (Remember, while the Republicans’ buddies were paying for the silly “Harry and Louise” ads, it was “liberal” Howell Raines of the New York Times that led the media charge to destroy Hillary Clinton’s health-care reform plan, and whose attacks against the Clintons were given the most respect.)
Sick, sick, sick.



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Why are we not surprised?
3?
Hillary Clinton according to Moore is the second largest receiver of money from the health care industry.
Canada’s system is broken is the refrain I keep hearing.
As if it’s the only model out there, or that it couldn’t be tweaked a little.
This is just one reason why the Democrats are going to take Washington in November of ‘08. Can we survive until then?
Actually what I’m sick of are the Clintons. Even though I vote for the huge dog twice.
Have you guys checked out C&L’s new comment format? Just like FDL’s now. Much more user friendly.
PW,
Thanks for this. We have long ago stopped debating issues on the merits. Ever since the fairness doctrine was stripped by St. Ronald the corpos have slowly but surely taken over the media and the message.
I will be sad to leave the Boston Globe behind as it really does often deal with issues—not always, mind you. The Glob reviewer gave Sicko 3 and a half out of 4 stars. They’ve got Charlie Savage churning out really good stuff and the London bomb scare is not on the front page today. The Presidential scholar from Wellesley who slipped W. the anti-torture letter is.
There is no way we will ever go to single payer health care unless and until we have federally funded elections. Until we take the pac and lobbying money out of the system it will remain beholden to the money interests and therefore broken.
We will get health care reform. The public wants it and the big business wants it. What we will get is Medicare Drug Benefit writ large. The corps will dump their health care costs onto the taxpayer for reduced coverage and the programs will be run by big insurance who will take 20-30% off the top. Also there will be “Malpractice Reform” ie no matter how bad the care is, you can’t sue.
here’s what the fascist media tries to get away with;
when president lies us into war it is NOT “ballanced” to have someone say “he didn’t lie”
the fact is the fact, if that fact is against a republican the fascist media tries to make believe it’s “ballanced” to say the fact isn’t true.
that’s their excuse
when somthing is white you are NOT being ballanced by calling it black you’re being an idiot
Yet another anti-Sicko hit piece, this one from Kurt Loder at MTV.com.
Loo Hoo. @ 7
Last I knew, FDL and C&L shared the same server, maybe even the same tech wizards, but I don’t know that as a fact.
So… as a Dem I should vote for Hillary because she spent 8 years in the WH as the big dog’s wife. She receives lots of money from the health care industry. She voted for the Bush occupation. Is a war hawk. Won’t admit she made a mistake. And she’s very plugged in to the DLC.
Phoenix Woman!
This is from CNN Kinda damning Moore with faint praise: “Sicko statistics mostly correct but need “better context.”"
AnnieW @ 4
i used to work with an canadian MD at a medical school (not practicing – doing research) here in the USA. when she needed medical care – she went back to canada. said she thought the care was much better than here. wasn’t a matter of cost, as she had excellent heath insurance here, should she need to use it.
Brava, PW — that Saul Friedman link is a treasure. Thanks.
It comes as no surprise that what the Pajama-clad doyens of our “Mad” Media considers “Fair and Balanced” is really pretty simple:
To wit, Sane and Insane!
And in order to keep those ratings movin’ in the “Right” direction, let’s err on the side of THE INSANE!.
After all, as Media Madhatters, they be in the Entertainment biz, doncha know?
And now, stay tuned for the Flying Monkeys and their analysis of today’s events and how it will affect your life! Brought to you by the ever-delusional folks at GE where we replace reality with fantasy.
Thanks for this, Phoenix Woman:
Several points that get confused are these:
Wait times: The critics love to bash Canada, UK and France for wait times. But what never gets factored in is that in the US 25% of people are DENIED care – so they never have wait times to report – they are never in the queue to wait!
Another thing that gets bolloxed is the cost. Currently, Medicare uses between 2-3% in administrative costs compared to between 30-40% of all health care costs going to administrative -NON-PATIENT CARE functions – this includes healthcare insurance employees, medical office employees who deal with claims, hospital billing and coding employees and on and on. Healthcare insurance does not add any value to health CARE. It exists solely to provide profit for shareholders, and it does this by limiting the risk pool to the youngest and healthiest, and by denying claims.
Moore gets it substantially right. Only there’s even more that he didn’t get to – and no one could in a single film.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 6
We all blame you for our predicament. ;)
And let me once again be gin-clear on this. I will vote for the nominee of my party for president in ‘08.
Essential references:
Kaiser Daily Health Report
The Commonwealth Fund Report
Hello, everyone! Was running a few errands. Anything thrilling happening?
I didn’t mean to bash Canada’s system, it just seems to be all the media can talk about. The
hit piecereview by MTV is a case in point.Oklahoma kiddo @ 13
If the alternative is Fred Thompson? Damn right you should vote for Hilary.
Phoenix Woman @ 22
I wouldn’t call this interview of Pelosi exactly thrilling…interesting maybe:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..05731/7541
It won’t matter what the MSM critics say. Just like w/all Moore’s films- the American People will take it to their hearts…
OT..but I couldn’t help it
Mr. Kohut said Republican support for Mr. Bush was dwindling across the party spectrum. Among moderate and liberal Republicans, 52 percent currently approve of Mr. Bush’s job performance, down from 63 percent in April, he said. Among conservatives, his job approval stood at 74 percent this month, down from 86 percent in April.
Mr. Kohut said Republican support for Mr. Bush was dwindling across the party spectrum. Among moderate and liberal Republicans, 52 percent currently approve of Mr. Bush’s job performance, down from 63 percent in April, he said. Among conservatives, his job approval stood at 74 percent this month, down from 86 percent in April.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/30/was…..ref=slogin
Moderate and Liberal Republicans? Give me a fucking break..Show me a liberal Republican who hasn’t been in a coma for 40 years..it is really sad to see what has happened to the NYT and WaPo.
for anyone who wants to dig into the weeds, this is my favorite resource – Physicans for a National Health Program. They’ve been doing the heaving lifting for years… doing research, making presentations, making proposals.
OT, but this cracked me up — and it’s not entirely OT, as it contains a data point regarding the bizarre obsessions of our print and broadcast “journalists.”
The mayor of Philadelphia turned out at 3:30 a.m. yesterday and stood in line at an Apple Store to get his paws on an iPhone. The reaction was, shall we say, predictable.
http://www.philly.com/philly/h…..hone_.html
I’m dying to see what Atrios will have to say about this.
Marie Roget @ 26
if only this were true
moores 9/11 movie was spectacular yet the fascists were able to get people to think it was worthless and they supported bush never the less
All the Rove clones are feverishly writing talking points lies to counter Moore’s truth. Same old, same old.
selise @ 28
;0)
Why push for single payer when universal health care could be our goal?
Burning car smashed into the terminal at the Glasgow Intl’ Airport.
AnnieW @ 23
after hearing about it straight from my canadian co-worker, i now am very sceptical of the corporate propaganda.
one thing thing to keep in mind, is that the health care spending per person in canada is far less than in the usa. so comparing the two systems really is apples and oranges. a fair comparison would be the canadian system, but with spending like in the usa. wow, would THAT be an amazing health care system!
Eureka Springs @ 33
it’s single payer AND universal.
single payer is the most efficient way to get universal coverage.
burnspbesq @ 24
You got it. Who would you rather have picking John Paul Stevens’ replacement?
LS @ 31
;0)
dakine01 @ 14
This will be as good as it gets. Contrast CNN’s coverage to that of MTV’s article by Kurt Loder, which will be typical of the Wurlitzer’s counter-attack.
Who needs Glenn Beck to savage Moore, when you have NPR’s Kim Masters:
The piece ends with Moore noting that this attacking report shows that “This is the typical, you know NPR, afraid of being accused of having liberal bias — so, let’s make sure we attack him enough in this piece.” To which Masters snidely responds, “Did we, Kim Masters, NPR News.”
I’ve spent alot of time at doctor’s offices, Hoag Hospital and at City of Hope over the past year, and it was amazing to me to hear how many people said they wanted health care reform and all it entails.
Especially conservative nurses who admit they were completely wrong when they opposed Clinton the first time around. (I share OKK’s concerns, I’m not as sure Hillary is as committed to reform as she used to be.)
We were fortunate, my husband’s insurance is gold plated, so everything that was needed was approved in a timely fashion…others were not as lucky and treatment was delayed while insurance dithered about the 2nd round of chemo being needed, etc. It’s appalling what so many are forced to put up with.
Talkleft links to this pdf file. I suppose italics in the Libby Opinion means formerly redacted? Then we have got a delicious, treat of new Cheney and Rove treason.
_____________________
As to the July 12 conversation, Libby testified that while flying back from an event in Norfolk on Air Force Two, Vice President Cheney dictated several statements relating to the sixteen words controversy, some to be given to reporters on-the record, others on background and deep background. (I-193-201.) After landing, Libby called several journalists, including Cooper and Miller.
Cooper said that he (Cooper) asked Libby “something along the lines of what do you know about Wilson’s wife being involved in, you know, sending him on this mission?” (II-53.) According to Cooper, Libby responded, “[Y]eah, I’ve heard that too” (II-54), which Cooper took as confirmation (II-81-91).- Also, though Libby now claims not to remember Cheney telling him to discuss Plame’s employment, he told the FBI during a preliminary interview that it was “possible” that he received such instructions. (I-201, 391.) Perhaps indicating the issue was on Cheney’s mind, the vice president’s copy of Wilson’s op-ed, which Cheney cut out
and kept on his desk, carries the following handwritten note:
“[H]ad they done this sort of thing before[,] send an ambassador to answer a question? [D]o we ordinarily send people out pro bono to work for us? [O]r did his wife send him on a junket?” (I-308-12.) (p 75)
_________________________
Rove and Novak, and Rove uses “definitive” and “impressive” in the same sentence. Has the “CIA Report” been released?
_______________________________
According to Novak, when he “brought up” Wilson’s wife, “Mr. Rove said, oh, you know about that too” (II-154) and promised to seek
declassification of portions of a CIA report regarding the Niger trip, which Rove said “wasn’t an impressive piece of work or a very definitive piece of work” (II-158). (p 76)
At least they were not able to prevent Moore’s moving from being made and seen by the American people. All they have is words, no sticks and stones….yet.
raven @ 34
Listening to BBC on this right now. Hard to say whether it is suicide bombers or drunken soccer fans from what I’ve heard so far…
I will not vote for Hillary Clinton in the primaries. I will vote for the nominee of my party for president in 2008. Got that?
Ed*ard Teller @ 44
Drunken suicide soccer fans. . .maybe not mutually exclusive. Trying to understand the Scottish eyewitnesses is a trip.
perris @ 30
I guess we might have different definitions of “the people.”
We have so many more talented Democrats than Obama and Hillary.
Steve @ 27
the Post picked my least favorite of their usual gang of half-assed movie reviewers to thumbs down Moore’s movie yesterday. Go figure.
LS @ 25
That’s an amazing interview. The woman should be President.
N=1 @ 21
I’d add, just about every daily-kos posting by nyceve.
selise @ 35
We have been and continue to be brainwashed by corporate interest groups. The Canadian system isn’t perfect but it is light years better than what we have now. Most of the propaganda against comes in the form of Canadians have to wait for procedures or Canada rations health care, etc.
Canadian health care is rationed..it tries to spend a finite amount of money to do the most good for all of the people. Their health care outcomes are usually better than those is this country. The fact is that health care has to be rationed…you either do it by outcome data or you do it, like the US does it, by job or socio-economic status.
My health care plan need is simple:
I want Bush’s.
Comprehensive.
Highest quality.
Free.
For the rest of my life.
The campaign for health care reform- and the campaign AGAINST health care reform are winding up. I was VP of Human Resources during the Hillary Care debate. Whoever is going to lead the charge will not underestimate the power of the opposition this time around. They’re fighting for their LIVES and won’t pull any punches.
Last time around we reached the point when most thought that SOME kind of reform was inevitable- and goopers started laying out their OWN plans- some of which were pretty damned good. As soon as the issue folded- so did the gooper enthusiasm for doing ANYTHING.
This is going to be a tough one- and it’s best for a candidate to come in “open minded” about approach and with the ability to snag some allies from unlikely places. They won’t win if they take on ALL the stake holders (Health care workers, insurance companies, hospitals, drug companies, device manufacturers, etc.) Some compromise will be required- but not as much as last time around. The idea has matured.
AnnieW @ 41
clinton’s plan did not cut out the insurers – so it didn’t cut out the wasted money in our current system (about 30% of our health care costs are unnecessary administrative costs).
sounds like she was trying for something that would please insurance companies….
i’m no expert on clinton’s plan (and i don’t have good resources / references for it)… so, someone please correct me if i’m wrong on this.
Ed*ard Teller @ 44
If it’s Glasgow I would absolutely bet on the latter. I was actually surprised that DaMarcus Beasley chose to go to Rangers. Playing in Scotland, he’s going to hear racist abuse from opposing fans that will make him think he’s playing in Mississippi circa 1954.
Scarecrow @ 50
did you listen to the interview??? blegh and yuck. i’m going to really, really disagree with you here, scarecrow. except on the point that pelosi should be president. on that we agree!
selise @ 55
And yet it was still attacked rabidly….just imagine what they will do to any true reform.
I’m not holding my breath, but I can hope.
Caught Michael’s interview with Larry King last night after the Beatles…Paul and Ringo.
Excellent back-to-back interviews! As always, both were great!
OT Moore makes an extremely good point that we have to impress upon each candidate that he/she MUST have a universal health care plan and we want to know what precisely it is.
And, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that TOTAL HEALTH CARE COSTS would be much smaller if INSURANCE COMPANY PROFIT& OVERHEAD were to be subtracted from the GRAND SUM. Of course, “The private sector can do it more efficently!” is what FOX et al will be screaming along with their less transparent lies about how our economy and Constitution works.
Haven’t seen it yet, but we’ll organize a group ala Move On Dot Com next week.
Ask yourself. Who would you rather have? Edwards, Dodd, Kucinich, Clark, Richardson, Biden, or Gore. Or Hillary and/or Obama?
PW,
Amazing, ain’t it?
Americans want universal health coverage. We don’t have it. Americans don’t want NAFTA. We have it. Americans would like to join a union. EFCA just got stonewalled.
And liberals are a danger to the country? It’d be funny if it weren’t so damn serious.
If we don’t bust up the MIC in ‘08 we will go back to the Robber Baron Era in our lifetimes.
And your comment @ 37 is spot on after this week’s SCOTUS back-to-the-future rulings! I can just see them pissing on progressive legislation for the next 25 years (thank you, you gutless Democrats who didn’t have the balls to stonewall Rob-ito like Reps did EFCA!).
Noticed the press didn’t clutch their pearls when Reps threatened filibuster.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Agreed! Ultimately, she’d appoint better folks to SCOTUS than anyone from the other side would.
Pelosi for president. Sounds good!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
For purposes of advancing the discussion, I will assusme that to be an accurate statement. But how many of your “more talented Democrats” are actually viable candidates for President in 2008?
There’s the rub.
I’m a pragmatist. If there’s no five-run home run available to be hit, I will take a double to the gap in left-center and be happy with it. I can build a five-run inning around singles and doubles.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Got it, and agree with it.
The pragmatist way to infiltrate the neocon aversion to universal healthcare is twofold:
The first is that the publi health is imperiled when people don’t get necessary care to prevent communicable disease. Case in point is the extra drug resistant TB patient – if he hadn’t been able to get the urgent care for a sore rib, the TB wouldn’t be diagnosed. Many active TB patients are asymptomatic, meaning they don’t feel ill, they aren’t coughing, and they aren’t running fevers and the like.
The second point is that most of the uninsured and underinsured are working – and they are making your food, serving your meals, caring for your infant and toddlers, cleaning your hotel rooms, driving your trains and buses, handling your groceries, handling your money, washing your cars and cleaning your offices. They do have close and frequent contact with you and your loved ones. When they transmit their diseases to you, it’s because they have no ability to get healthcare – they can’t afford it, can’t afford to take time off work to get it, or are in peril of losing their jobs if they don’t come to work.
The argument has to involve a scary, terrorist-like element to make them pay attention and see how it affects them. Universal healthcare will only be sold to the meanest of the mean when there’s a reason related to fun and profit for them – it’s never about the right thing to do, supporting your fellow citizen or alleviating suffering. Never.
burnspbesq @ 64
He slud into third!
Two points from personal knowledge. A few years ago I had to have an angiogram. (I checked out fine, fortunately.) The initial bill was about $17,000, and I didn’t even stay overnight. Both the hospital and my insurance company told me to ignore it, as it was just the first move in the negotiation process. I eventually paid about $300 as a copay. So how much did the procedure “cost”? Who can say?? But cutting out that negotiation charade would save a lot of time and money. (Not to mention sparing me a near heart attack when I opened that first bill.)
Second, whatever the virtues of the Canadian system, I have a good friend whose girlfriend is a Toronto architect. She nearly died some years ago because the Canadian doctors couldn’t even figure out what was wrong with her. In desperation she came south to a major American clinic (I forget which). They figured it out, and she’s alive and well today.
Anecdotal? Yes. But unlike what I read in the MSM, I know these stories are true.
I support and trust the Speaker.
seems to me, after Hillary and Bill got stomped on by the media and the medical industry for pushing universal health CARE, the entire dialogue shifted to a new framing, “universal health INSURANCE” which effectively put one more terminology firewall in front of public health CARE.
Since then, the entire conversation has been around INSURING patients, not TREATING patients, and that plays right into the insurance industry’s greedy little hands.
I added up what our little town of about 3,000 people pays for health INSURANCE, and the amount is staggering. If that same monmey went to health CARE instead of health INSURANCE, they could have a state-of-the-art clinic in every small town in the country.
The other major shift that affects the situation is the move away from a system that reiled on real diagnosis, to a system of run-around diagnostics, with patients making five visits just to find out what actually is wrong with the.
if there is just one facet of medicine that we nationalize, it should be diagnosis. Because that is where the lion’s share of corruption enters in to the system, it is the runaround that has made diagnostic clinics such high-profit operations.
Paying for the eventual TREATMENT, after the diagnosis is conclusive, could then be left up to the insurors, but diagnosis would be public…
It is really just a half-step towards universal healthcare, but if it is inevitable that this process will come in steps, (like insuring all children under age 18) then this “public diagnostic program” is one of the first one we should take.
I’m no expert, but I am one of the uninsured. I have been blessed with very good health, in spite of myself, but we all know how quickly that can change. So if I do get sick, the most important thing to me would be to KNOW what was making me sick, and in our current predatory system, that might take months and many trips to profitable clinics for another expensive test that I should have received the first time I laid down on the examination table.
Just some food for thought.
Sounds like one of the guys in the SUV was on fire , got out and tried to open the back!
OT..We are at the edge of the cliff and going over..
BAGHDAD (AP) – American soldiers rolled into Baghdad’s Shiite Sadr City slum on Saturday in search of Iranian-linked militants and as many as 26 Iraqis were killed in what a U.S. officer described as “an intense firefight.”
But residents, police and hospital officials said eight civilians were killed in their homes and angrily accused U.S. forces of firing blindly on the innocent. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki condemned the raids and demanded an explanation for the assault into a district where he has barred U.S. operations in the past.
http://apnews.myway.com/articl…..69K80.html
I have seen this before; shoot anyone in black pajamas and add to the body count of NVA or Viet Cong..now kill any Iraqi and add to the body count of insurgents.
Now that we are killing civilians in Sadr city..the shit is really going to hit the fan. Steve Gilliard predicted what would happen.
These maniacs on MSNBC are actually suggesting it was an accident and we should wait for the facts!
burnspbesq @ 56
In March, 1999, I was at a football match south of London between Crystal Palace and Bradford. It was the first Saturday of the Kosovo War. Bradford had a bunch of Serbs, Crystal Palace, a bunch of Albanians on their roster. Both teams had a lot of fans from these ethnic constituencies. It was nil-nil in the end of regulation, and fights started breaking out on the field, then the stands. After the match, they continued in the parking lots and train platforms near the stadium.
Priceless experience, both for me, and my soccer-playing son, who was ten then.
Steve @ 72
Well, since we are not fighting any organized military it would seem they are all civilians.
Steve T. @ 68
It’s not like this doesn’t already happen in the US. If you are poor or live in a rurual area, you are less likely to be accurately diagnosed and treated. It’s not like we don’t have lots of bad doctors in America.
Don’t think I’ll take the bait. But I will say this to the ‘pragmatists’: I think the GOP is salivating for a Hillary nomination.
Phoenix Woman @ 37
EVERY Democrat, liberal and Progressive “out there” needs to take this same attitude. Otherwise we will see once again something like what the greens and Nader did to Gore, and another Bush type will take the throne because “our side” doesn’t know when to stick together.
There’s not ONE of the Democrats I would NOT vote for, and there’s not ONE Republican I WOULD vote for, even Ron Paul has some immigration ideas that just don’t fit my personal agenda.
So don’t get all boo-hooey when your personal Democratic candidate gets toppled, move on to the next one and give them your support, or wemay see another 4 years with a Republican president.
I intend to support John Edwards right up through the primaries, and sincerely hope that he wins the nomination, because I think he has the very best chance of winning the election. However, I haven’t yet seen a Democrat I could not vote for, especially when you put Rudy MCRomson up against them…
JEP @ 78
Sorry, if you would vote for John Barrow you are sadly mistaken.
Where will Michael Moore’s cinematic arc take him next?
The press and media?
Hmmmm. What might it be titled?
selise @ 57
She seems to be driving the bus and effectively evicting distasteful passengers, one by one, along the way. She is one smart granny.
Her comments that Americans don’t know the half of it, that the President is not worth impeaching, that the broad case against the Administration is being built via oversight that will get rid of them all once and for all are telling. Patience and Restraint. I just hope she pounces if they attempt to attack Iran and Syria.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 69
i am committed to being as skeptical of my politicians as i ask my republican friends to be of theirs.
if we’re not willing to hold our own politicians to the same standards we hold the republicans, then we are just partisan hacks.
no trust. no distrust. lots of skepticism.
N=1 @ 66
On top of that is the fact that we have (and pay dearly for) universal healthcare in the United States — it’s called “the emergency room,” and at premium prices it takes all comers provided that they wait until their conditions threaten their lives and possibly those of the public at large.
LS @ 43
Great achievment! The world is deeply impressed.
AnnieW @ 4
The perception that ‘Canada’s system is broken’ exists because of the insistence of Canada’s neocon brethren and their fellow political travellers on destroying it and creating a more corporate-friendly two-and-three-tier model…a process that they have dabbled in for decades as the existing system ages ungracefully under the burden of a growing population..
I was on the “Its Our Health Care. Org Road to Reform Tour” telling my health care story. We got back into on Thursday afternoon. Michael Moore joined us in L.A. to help rally folks. It sure worked.
I am still reeling from the horrid stories about no or little health care. People are dying in this country for no reason except greed. I came back home filled with more anger than when I left. It seems that the Bush Administration is trying to cull the population of poor and are sending the same strong message they sent during Katrina. The masses don’t count and are to be used up and thrown away. The working person is a debit not a credit to this country in their opinion.
On the issue of healthcare, comparison to the Canadian system is somewhat fair. However, the way the Canadian system is often described by American politicians is completely wrong. My understanding of their system (as described by Canadian friends who have lived in both countries) is that they have choice of doctors and choice of treaments. All medical records are all on a national database (so if an accident happens, immediate full records of their health are available anywhere in the country). All doctors are paid the same for the same services/procedures. Patients can instead use doctors who do not accept the national healtcare plan (i.e. rich can opt to pay out-of-pocket for services if they wish). The time lag issue is bogus – they may have to wait for a donor match for an organ (just like in the US). The only catch is that elective surgeries are scheduled after non-elective surgeries (and again, if Barbie wants her nose job today, she can have her daddy pay the out-of-network doctor for it instead of waiting a couple months).
Their population is healthier, in part because of preventive medical care. Unlike in the US, people don’t go bankrupt because their HMO refuses to pay for a life-saving procedure.
A conservative friend of mine, when presented more of the truth about the Canadian system, still wants to say it must be bad… his argument is simply reduced to the notion that “since all doctors are paid the same fee for the same services, there is no competition, so therefore they aren’t going to try as hard to be good.” My response was that an even pay scale would actually cause many doctors to work HARDER to be better, as they need to attract the business to stay in business. Quality is what will make their practices flourish when the pay rate is the same.
I talk with everyone I can about the US healthcare crisis – whether I know their politics or not. At the hair salon, at the grocery store, at a party, at the pharmacy, at church… wherever the opportunity arises or a discussion begins about healthcare, I bring up the crisis we’re facing. Everywhere I do this, I get a resounding agreement that this is probably the biggest solveable problem we face as a country.
raven @ 79
well, since that name doesn’t seem to ring my bells, it sure isn’t likely I’ll vote for him… I must have missed him in the debates…
Hillary care was a complicated system- but the centerpieces were mandatory coverage for employers and HMOs to keep costs down. It failed miserably.
I believe that the doctors are the core constituent in this debate. IF ya get the AMA- you have a chance of winning the battle- without em it’s hopeless.
They WANT universal coverage- they lose too much money the way things are now- they HATE all the complicated insurance and HMO administrative measures that take time away from treating patients and making money. They will OPPOSE anything that threatens to decrease their incomes- so that provides a pretty good roadmap of where the bombs are buried.
selise @ 82
I hear and trust what you’re telling me. ;0)
Fortunately, it’s not one of the options, so I’m not worried.
Barrow or Jefferson would be better than DeMint or Onhofe…just sayin’. Thank goodness we don’t have to choose between this cast, do we?
Our choices are quite a bit more clear cut…even Hillary.
JEP @ 88
Sorry, he’s a Georgia congressman. I guess you meant for pres, my bad.
Steve @ 72
Exactly.
As Steve said, the one thing that’s kept our forces from being swept off the face of the earth is that the Shiites have for the most part stayed their hand against us. The vast majority of attacks on US troops are doing by Sunni groups.
When the Shiites finally rise up, it will be Khartoum on steroids. There won’t be any scenes of helicopters lifting off from the embassy because there will be no safe place within range of the choppers’ fuel tanks: The airport will have been overrun first. And overland escape is impossible.
Steve T. @ 68
Steve T – I know of plenty of situations where people were undiagnosed or misdiagnosed in the US. It’s certainly true that there are a lot of specialists practicing in the US, and it’s partly because they can charge up the wazoo for services here. Many Canadian doctors graduate from school and have huge bills to pay, so they come to the US to practice and pay off their student loan debt. Some return to Canada, others don’t.
The American public is going to see the biggest ad campaign in the nation’s history to preserve the status quo. This campaign will be supported by the MSM to insure that nothing changes. It’s not that hard to believe that the American public will fall for it because by and large the Americans are easily manipulated by a few clever words and bright shiny objects.
I have every intention of keeping my party’s feet to the fire.
teedawg @ 80
About ten days ago, he stated that after spending a lot of time with 9/11 first responders from NYC and DC, he’s totally uncomfortable with the standard narrative of what went down that day. He’s trying to find ways to get hold of footage from some of the 300 odd surveillance systems that recorded the plane impact on the Pentagon, all of which but for one, remain highly classified.
Phoenix Woman @ 93
Maybe that is why we are being distracted 24/7 with strange ineffective car bomb attacks..
teedawg @ 80
Uncommonly Senseless
dakine01 @ 98
I’m thinking maybe Katrina.
LS @ 81
i did not like her statement that seemed to indicate that the reason for the oversight hearings is to show how bad the republicans are in anticipation of the 2008 elections. not to stop the lawlessness.
i also do not like that she did not deliver on her promise of a stand alone bill to tell president bush he couldn’t attack iran w/o congressional approval (this was after she pulled the language from the iraq supplemental funding bill).
i also do not like that she voted for h.con.r.21 that wrongly accused ahmadinejad of calling for genocide of israelis, and contrary to the iaea accused iran of having an nuclear weapons program.
The Canadian system is pretty damned good as far as I can tell- but doctors make less money there and try to come here at the earliest opportunity- so Canadian med schools spin their wheels creating docs that end up leaving.
The crapola about waiting for treatment is mostly bullshit from what I hear from canadians. Treatment that is necessary to health is not delayed any more than it is here.
Gore resembles hope.
steve t @68: fyi I have a response to you in moderation at 94. Not sure what tripped the filters in that one.
rwcole @ 89
Hiliary made her proposed system complicated to appease the insurance companies and make a place for them. Then they turned on her and accused her proposed system of being too complicated. Remember Harry and Louise?
Time for work. Have a good day, everyone!
Mary McCurnin @ 86 – thank you for your efforts on behalf of all of us.
Gore is the brand name. Accept no substitutes. H/T to punaise. ;0)
LS @ 99
Well, since many of the journos like to point to Thomas Paine’s Common Sense and his other pamphlets as progenitors of the First amendment, I figured a play on the original MIGHT get some attention.
Phoenix Woman @ 93
I don’t find this scenario credible. When or if the Shiites rise up, the forces will go back out the way they came in, taking about 150% more casualties than they did during Charles Krauthammer’s “Glorious Three-Week War.”
The amount of USAF, USN and USMC air power based in or near the area is huge. Helicopters are vulnerable on approach and exit, but the amount of suppressing fire our forces are capable of dispensing is horrendous.
SteveT@68:
I’m glad your friend from Toronto is okay. However, had she been in America and encountered a similar difficulty in obtaining her diagnosis, would the American system have permitted her to travel to Toronto for further diagnosis? Or would she have instead languished in the American system? What was the cost to her for traveling to the U.S. for her diagnosis and treatment?
These questions need to be addressed before your admittedly anecdotal example has much relevance. There are always cases which are hard to diagnose: which health care system had the flexibilty to address the problem?
No doubt a true leader who would inspire most of us was killed in Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 95
I agree wholeheartedly, but lets not burn them so bad they can’t “run”…
ANd always keep in mind, if something you say or do in opposition to one of your own party’s candidates gets picked-up by the “other side” you may have enabled them.
We all know the Clintons’ corporate and mdical industry connections have been “cultured” since their universal healthcare days, and increased to a point where most of us now question “what’s the difference between the Clintons and the Republicans” But if it comes down to Hillary vs. Thompson, can you really choose Thompson, or refuse to vote because you distrust Hillary and Bill now?
wig
Yep- and they’re certainly willing and able to deliver a lot more garbage than that if they are threatened- which is likely.
wigwam @ 83
Except that EDs are totally out of capacity and staff – nurses and physicians are fed up and are leaving, too. There is such little inpatient bed capacity that the US is not prepared in any way for any type of large scale disaster – including pandemic flu or a natural disaster, such as Katrina on a milder scale. HHS did not submit ED crowding data to the House Oversight and Govt. Reform Committee, and they have been charged to do so by a very irritated Rep Waxman.
Can you tell that I’m a healthcare blogger? *g*
As far as making more money, it depends on the field.
Newsweek (I think) had an article a while back about a heart surgeon that now gives botox injections, etc. because it is cash up front, considerably lower overhead, no insurance hassles, etc.
It’s disturbing that it has come to that.
rwcole @ 89
That was true when Medicare was established..AMA fought it and it turned out to be a wind fall for doctors. Now, for the most part, doctors are told do what the insurance companies want or else.
See “The Moral Hazard Myth“
The bitching about the Clintons from the wingnuts kept Gore in from standing with Bill on every platform and basking in the wealth and accomplishments of their 8 years together once Bush The Slightly Better was run out of office.
It cost us the 2000 election, the Supreme Court, a war in Iraq, roll-backs at EPA, hundreds of incompetent lawyers placed in Justice, incompetence in FEMA, a crippled New Orleans given little to no help, and add your favorite crimes to the list.
Bitch about Senator Clinton all you want, but she isn’t stupid enough to smoke. She has more relevant experience than anyone in the field. She is recognizable by everyone. We don’t really have to ask her where she stands on equal pay for equal work. And, I pity the poor GOOPer who has to defend GOOPer policies against her in a televised presidential debate.
Play “little ball” all you want. We have seen enough of that HS in the House inquiries. Personally I have always preferred the NY brand of baseball … we feature real sluggers and fast pitches.
LS @ 97
In the last few weeks, our casualties have increased and much of the increase is coming from EFPs, which I’m told are the Shiites’ weapon of choice aginst armor. It has gotten so bad that a lot of the troops will walk alongside armored vehicles, where they are vulnerable to snipers, rather than ride inside.
I think it’s best for a candidate to run on “Universal Coverage” and stay nuetral on the best way to achieve it. Once elected, the president should task congress with the chore of coming up with a bill- with only a few broad “guidelines”. (Universal- at least 30% cost reduction- etc.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 103
Far & away more than the other potential hopefuls on the Dem ticket. W/that I’m off to hiking up near Santa Inez CA (so hot this early in summer? Thank you, global climate change).
selise @ 100
I agree with you on all of your points. Points 2 and 3 reveal her policy loyalties, and I have a big problem with that.
Albatross @ 110
Also, I wonder what her diagnosis was. What is complicated or rare? Or did the Canadian system fail due to incompetence? Were her symptoms atypical? There are so many possibilities about what went wrong.
dakine01 @ 99
Been thinking that Moore’s next effort should be on the MSM in America. Moore holds up a mirror for Americans to see what their country really is rather what they are told the country is.
JEP @ 113
I am listening to you. :0)
Steve
I don’t think that the insurance companies control the AMA- do you have any evidence to the contrary?
dakine01 @ 108
I think that’s a great title! I was thinking that maybe his next endeavor might be about Katrina..:}
raven @ 92
Raven, sounds like you must know Victoria Barrow…
Bluedanube @ 94
There will be a huge campaign but it won’t be for the status quo. The bright shiny object will be health care reform…it will be pushed by big business and the insurance industry..there is infinite corporate welfare to be had with “health care reform”.
A new CBS News national survey (Bush/Iraq story, results; Campaign 2008 story, results) of 835 adults (conducted 6/26 through 6/28) finds: 27% approve of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president and 65% disapprove
teedawg @ 80
“Left Behind: Why Are Both the Democrats and Republicans So Much Farther Right than their Consitutents?”
Okay, that’s too long.
“The Party: America’s One Party System called ‘The Two Party System’”
That confuses even me, hm.
“Shut Out: How Corporate Lobbyists Kill Progressive Politics”
There we go.
Actually I would love it if he just portrayed a Congressional session, and had those “Contribution Balloons” floating over the heads of every member…
JEP @ 128
Just casually from various social functions. The saving grace about John is that he moved his sorry pompous ass from Athens to Savannah so he could run down there. Now we don’t have to listen to him drone on at city council meetings!
LS @ 128
He can get the skinny from Spike Lee on that:
When the Levees Broke
N=1 @ 66
I like this. A lot.
rwcole @ 126
In my other life working in the academic medical world, I found that the pharmaceutical companies controlled and influenced those who serve on all kinds of “boards”, including the AMA and APA. I never saw insurance companies offering incentives, but I would imagine they totally work the other end of the pharmaceutical companies. Physicians are not well served by the insurance companies – they struggle with the HMOs, etc. JMHO
“A U.S. soldier was killed Friday and three wounded when a sophisticated, armor-piercing bomb hit their combat patrol in southern Baghdad, the military announced a day later.”
Prior to invading we were told that Iraq was chock full of hi tech weaponry, WMD’s, evil scientists and a massive miltitary machine that was capable of threatening America’s “heartland”.
Now we are told that the only way Iraqis can get a hold of “sophisticated weapons” is to import them from Iran.
Who writes these saggy assed narratives?
-GSD
Going to see SiCKO? Check out all the numbers on the sorry state of the U.S. health care system:
“The SiCKO Reading Guide.”
LS @ 122
to put it in perspective though, she’s the best political leader we’ve got. and the best we’ve had in some time… gotta give her credit where she’s earned it. and give her grief where she’s wrong (see trade deal – forgot that one).
Marie Roget @ 133
“Bitch about Senator Clinton all you want, but she isn’t stupid enough to smoke.”
I have to agree with thisone, Obama’s inability to kick the tobacco habit does not suggest he understands what herepresents to our children, who seem to be supporting him in droves.
Most of them do not know Obama smokes, though, and unless he can kick the habit, he will, at least to me, always seem somehow unwilling to sacrifice his own urges for the sake of his constituents and their children.
I smoked in college for three years, but quit cold-turkey when I discovered how pernicious it was, FOR MY OWN GOOD!
Obama has more than himself to consider here, if he quits now, it may even give his numbers a reboost.
BobbyG @ 117
There is another problem, namely the Reaganoid myth that we achieve economic efficiency and “fairness” by “unleashing the miracle of free enterprise.” Americans have been so propagandized with the myth that the private sector is more efficient that they refuse to believe the statistics that we’re paying twice as much per person for vastly inferior care compared to the rest of the industrialized world, where the government is much more involved in the healthcare system.
Also, many Americans have bought into the notion that taxation is a form of theft. They are happier to pay twice as much for inferior care if the deduction on their pay stub reads “healthcare insurance” rather than “healthcare tax.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Same here. I’m kind of inclined toward Edwards. Unless President Gore runs for re-election. I still kind of blame him for creating the Lieberman Monster,though.
GSD @ 136
Shit, all they are is concave “shape charges” it’s not like they are ABM’s,
rwcole @ 126
No; other than personal observation of the ’60’s and 2000’s and how well the AMA represented the opinions of working physicians then and now. A weak argument, I admit.
I wonder who doesn’t like Gordon Brown or his policies??? Terrorists?
Marie Roget @ 133
Here is a new report out about the pumps in New Orleans. They don’t fu*king work. I take this personally since my parents lost their home in NO and my brother lives on the 17th Street Canal, one of the main breaks in the storm. Between health care, katrina, and the corruption of the student loan “system” my family has taken a huge hit.
My state of mind sucks today.
Raven,
Then again, the Ne-Con artists convinced one of my close and fairly liberal minded friend that his wife and lovely children living in greater Boston were in danger from Saddam’s “fleet of unmanned aerial vehicles”.
-GSD
P.S. Reports of 120/130 killed in Afghanistan. Unknown how many reported insurgents/Taliban and or civilians killed. More impotent rage from neo-con inside lackey and snapp dressser Hamid Karzai.
Mary McCurnin @ 145
We have to keep what happened in NOLA alive. Your artwork is poignant and important.
GSD @ 136
An EFP (Explosively Formed Penetrator) is a copper disk with C4 behind it. http://www.latimes.com/news/pr…..;cset=true
Re: AMA
It used to have a 70% membership. Now that number is flipped and membership is around 30%.
Another resource still totally untapped by Dems are registered nurses: almost 3 million, 93.4% women, ave. age 47, all with at least two years of college, only about 15-20% represented by unions or collective bargaining contracts. Leaving in droves due to workplace conditions and understaffing/high risk. American Nurses Association is their national prof. organization. Not one candidate is courting nurses. Why?
Hillary’s first plan happened a hundred years ago, politically speaking. Since then, plenty of once “secure” middle class folks have gone bankrupt from a Nixon Era health system stacked against the average paid insured. Just try to collect when you actually get sick. Profit drives denials of coverage; it’s that simple. Moore’s movie should mandate a re public outcry against the robber barons who decide who lives and who dies.
Mary McCurnin @ 147
(((((Mary McC & family)))))
Now I really have to get in the car to go north. Thoughts & prayers are w/you, Mary & family…
Suggestion for Moore’s Press documentary title.
Experts and Lies Incorporated
Spineless
DePressed
PinkO’s
LS @ 135
The HMO’s and insurance companies don’t have to use the crude, big-pharma tactic of small dollar bribery; the big boys can just de-list the doctor in their network.
LS
That’s my impression too. The insurance companies and the docs are at each other’s throats- and if push comes to shove- the docs have the power. They can simply refuse to participate in any given insurance program.
LS @ 148
Thank you so much. That means a lot to me.
Steve @ 155
And deny claims….
Steve @ 153
The HMO’s, etc., decide who gets certified for payment for treatment, and their codes determine how much the doctor gets paid.
cleter @ 142
“Welcome to Fox News for July First, 2008. The Supreme Court ruled today in favor of the Bush Administration in the case of Former Vice President Al Gore’s bid to represent the Democrat Party in the upcoming elections, finding that his candidacy would violate the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution. Chief Justice John Roberts noted in his ruling that since Gore actually won the 2000 election, and since two terms have subsequently passed, that the former Vice President has in fact had two terms as President, despite not actually wielding the power of the office.
Writing for the minority, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, “What the F@^$!? That has got to the dumbest thing I’ve heard since Justice Thomas’ confirmation hearings!”
From the White House, President Bush had this to say, “Y’see, since he WON, then he was Pres’dent. But since Ah was appointed, Ah was th’ Decider. In other words, Ah was the Decideer, see? An’ so, an’ so… we won’t get fooled agin’! Thank’e, thankyvurymuch.”
When we return, Tucker Carlson will review the Democrat Party chances now that their candidate has been rendered to Syria. First these messages.”
wigwam @ 140
Yep. Great points.
There’s an irritating “blame-the-victim” aspect at work, too, e.g., we are lectured that we are not “smart shoppers” for health care services because we have insurance. Like “shopping” for health care is the mundane economic equivalent of shopping for shoes or tires.
I once had a little go-round with this doctor/Stanford Med school faculty member who writes policy stuff to the “conservative” Hoover Institute. He’d written this anti- “government health care” OpEd screed extolling the virtues of individual responsibilty for free-market health care “shopping.” He would not respond to my query asking whether, given his views, he declined the surely generous health care coverage policies offered by his employer.
We know the answer. Free market medicine is for Us Little People, not for the ruling class.
Maybe Moore should take on the paharmies now, he’s done the groundwork with Sicko.
I sent him an ad once, that was taken from the pages of an 1800’s magazine, it was an 1897 Merck ad touting the medicinal benefits of cocaine.
Brings to mind Vioxx,or maybe celebrex, huh?
Merck has been a real rogue, even long before Rumsfeld added his own signature to the mess. And the rest of the drug industry is totally in cahoots.
Considering the ramafications of that little ad, concerning the sprawling, growing, private-prison industry and its inherent “drug dependency,” it may be something of a catch-all for uncovering a multitude of sins.
Stop and consider: Just how many industries depend on drugs, legal AND illegal, to survive. And how much gun murder in this country stems from some drugs being illegal in the first place?
The DEA? The Mob? The Cryps and Bloods? The US Prison industry? Scientology (narcanon and criminon, both FAITHBASED financed deceptions), and how many local drug enforcement swat teams are out there, cocked like a team of Seals, and not for chasing down terrorists, but to go after American citizens for growing pot
The pharmacuetical industry and the entire “drug”issue is a new subject, well beyond the medical industry Moore exposes in Sicko.
Maybe he should just title the next one “Drugs!”
rwcole @ 126
AMA, AHA, and the insurers are vested insterest, economically speaking. Of course, physicians also have a dedication to quality of care, which may be somewhat at odds with their economic interests.
rwcole @ 156
Not being listed in as many networks as possible is economic suicide. The only way a physician would drop a net work would be if they pay less than the physcian’s overhead.
rwcole @ 154
Yes and no..the majority of patients a doctor sees have insurance (the uninsured often don’t go to the doctor at all). The doctor is obliged to abide by the rules of the insurance companies if they accept the insurance. Many patients are on Medicare, which pays the physician next to nothing. So, in a way, it is a catch-22. Also, malpractice insurance is enormously expensive, and in today’s world, because the codes dictate the payment the physician receives in payment, they have a hard time functioning financially.
Schuster on msnbc.
N=1 @ 149
Nurses also GO TO THE HOMES of many elderly, and can help those folks request absentee ballots. SOmetimes it is the only way bedridden or housebound people can vote conveniently, and nurses are the front line of that contact…
Bobby
There is something to be said for getting the employers out of the health care process. They are mostly poorly informed and operate too far from the decision making that controls costs.
Ideally, docs would provide coverage on a monthly charge basis and cut out all of the middle men.
Don’t know if it would work- but it would get the provider and the patient nose to nose making the decisions.
Cheney must be having a great day today.
N=1 @ 156
Murder by spreadsheet. Be sure to click through to nyceve’s diary.
Mary McCurnin @ 86
I’d appreciate folks adding this link to the stories they read on the matter of health care of our citizens. No excuse for this either. None whatsoever.
http://texasobserver.org/article.php?aid=2534
From Reddit, a BBC DOCUMENTARY: al-Qaeda “Organization” is a fiction with no basis in reality. Also, a classic clip of Rumsfeld and Tim Russert. Russert shows the Al Qaeda Fortess of Solitude. Rumsfeld says that there many such Fortresses.
Who is happier about these car incidents? Cheney or the “terrorists”.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 77
GOP isn’t going to have a chance once Bill starts campaigning for her. And Feingold, Waxman, Leahy etc.
David Denby, in his New Yorker review of Sicko, doesn’t play GOP shill but does take on the film:
My first husband was a doc. We were married quite young so I was there thru medical school and the rest. The drug pushing/let’s not test our product adequately industry was on the seen from day one. They handed him a leather doctor’s bag with gold initials on it the day he graduated. And gave out free samples to the students (qualudes and such). At the time we thought that was fun. Not any more.
I am more comfortable with doctors running the show. But there are problems with that also.
I think there must be a lot of Koolaid stands popping up all over the place today.
LS at 81, I agree with you, and thanks for that link. I find Pelosi fascinating in her honesty.
Here’s the link if anyone didn’t read it. It’s worth a few minutes for sure:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..05731/7541
Tony Snow – TSA raising alert at airports. They must be having a party at Kennebunkport…oh, yeah, they are, aren’t they.
rwcole @ 165
We’re increasingly seeing some of that, e.g. “concierge medicine,” where a doc will offer an essentially individual patient-level “HMO”-ish arrangement (i.e. capitated monthyl or annual fee), and not taking any other insurance payment or a la carte walk-in cash payment.
rwcole @ 156
That’s accurate in the case of Medicaid, and it’s nigh unto impossible for some Medicaid patients to find anyone to treat them. The case of the 12 year old who died from a brain abscess is a case in point. His mother couldn’t find a dentist that would treat him when all he originally needed was preventive care. Then she couldn’t find someone to pull the tooth that abscessed. It wasn’t until he had a brain abscess that he was admitted to the hospital in critical care, had a long and painful death to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars that anyone paid attention.
With commerical inusrers, it’s more a factor of UCR negotiated rates and the claims denial and appeal costs and processes that can hamstring physicians because of the administrative costs and then subsequent office practice costs.
In all cases, it’s the patient who pays the ultimate price. Between the uninsured and the underinsured – those who have some health insurance, but for whom one major health problem will cause financial distress or ruin, there are about130,000 Americans who are unable to afford all necessary healthcare. Because most insurance is tied to employers, millions stay in jobs with unsatisfactory work conditions due to the fear that they will lose insurability if they lose their jobs – pre-existing conditions, age, employability, unable to afford COBRA, at risk of foreclosure or bankruptcy (health costs are the number one cause of bankruptcy).
BobbyG @ 159
I’m sick and tired of these free-market wingnuts giving us what some Marxist friends used to call “the unseen-hand job.” The free market doesn’t work in the case of health insurance because the economic incentive is to compete by denying claims and by not serving the market, i.e., by not insuring those who need insurance.
Krugman has written some outstanding op-eds on this matter. They are all available at truthout.org. (Has anyone assembled a list of his healthcare op-eds?)
wigwam @ 148
Mr Charles was doing lot’s of damage with punji sticks. We went into r&d superdrive and created the jungle boot with a metal plate in ti. Mr Charles installed the punji’s at an angle so they went in the side of the boot instead of the sole. So much for technology.
wigwam @ 170
I’m not a great fan of NYCEve in that she doesn’t address the complexity of the overall issues. Sure, the health insurance industry is parasitic, but we need to be looking beyond that horizon and at the policy and strategy to move beyond simply calling them names.
In the event of total war between docs and insurance companies- it still seems to me that the docs win. They take on one or two of em and refuse to do business with em. Bankruptcy follows.
Without docs- insurance companies have NOTHING to sell- ZERO.
Thank you Schuster for pointing out that these car incidents are “unsophisticated” and don’t warrant over reaction..
VA Tech was worse than all three car incidents put together.
If it hasn’t been mentioned before, the AP gets in on factchecking Sicko.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..ref=slogin
The timing of the London car bomb incidents was – well – convenient- if the goal was to put pressure on Brown to continue with Blair policies.
rwcole @ 189
Right. I know the terrorists really liked Blair’s policies.
rwcole @ 185
With the amount of educational debt that most MD’s have after finishing training, there will always be willing workers. If that doesn’t work, India graduate huge numbers of physicians..there is no threat to insurance companies due to some sort of global physician job action.
LS @ 185
So what does that have to do with the price of tomatoes? If the London bomb had worked who knows how many people would hev been killed.
LS
Well- in some ways they very much DID like Blair policies- but the masked Mercedes Bombers may have come from a different direction altogether. It appears that the damned things were not intended to go off. Terrorists tend to know how to make bombs.
N=1 @ 114
Thanks for pointing that out.
BTW, many people are unaware that they are paying for universal healthcare for the indigent, the poor, and the illegally imigrated. The point is that healthcare providers pass along the cost uncompensated care to the insured in the form of inflated charges, e.g., $50 per asprin. Insurers pass these along to the middle class as higher premiums. (All for the comfort of not having to call them “taxes.”)
rwcole @ 191
Yea, like Richard Reed.
raven @ 183
Mr Charles was doing lot’s of damage with punji sticks. We went into r&d superdrive and created the jungle boot with a metal plate in ti. Mr Charles installed the punji’s at an angle so they went in the side of the boot instead of the sole. So much for technology.
Let’s do some numbers. Osama BL spends about $350K to set up the 9/11 operation (if you believe the standard narrative). We spend something bordering on $2 trillion in response. Almost six years later, we’ve got about 60 times more enemies than when this damn thing started, still spending like crazy batshit, designing NOTHING that works to counter the exposure of our troops to urban hazards. Incompetence of world historic proportions.
Are we going to see a chorus of Republicans blaming Tony Blair for these terrorist attacks? I mean, it was Bill Clinton’s fault for 9/11 almost a year later. Blair’s gotta be a bit to blame for only being out of office for a day.
-GSD
Some have suggested simply giving medicare to everyone- and raising income taxes to pay for it. Insurance companies could create various “gap” programs as they do now to cover what medicare doesn’t- so it wouldn’t put em out of business- and docs could play or not play as they wished. If they go “Non Medicare”- they’d be serving the well to do- as many docs do in France.
Ed*ard Teller @ 196
again
I’m worried about Alfred K. He took a fall and hasn’t posted since Thursday.
http://spookinthemachine.blogspot.com/
Has anyone seen him on the threads?
You want Sick? I’ll give you Sick:
The “Gay Panic” Defense Still Works!!!!!!
my sister in law had radiation for lung cancer at twice the regular dose. Her health insurance was excellent. She was told this was the latest and best treatment. She died of a fried esophagus..the direct result of the radiation treatment. We found out too late it was a cost cutting thing. Pin point radiation is new but very important ..you have to search it out. Our health care system isn’t all that great. You have to wait for weeks for tests with a specialist even if you are very sick with cancer.
Failed terrorist attacks in civilized countries like England deserve round the clock coverage.
Successful terrorist attacks in savage Middle Eastern nations like Iraq should be ignored because it just gives the terrorists what they want.
-Bush’s Internal Voice
rwcole @ 198
Yes, that would be Conyers’ HR676. The Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP) has a well-resourced web site whic explains it, advocates for it and has activism links.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 96
Nothin’ wrong with that. But do it with your eyes open. Losing with your principles intact is still losing, and the country can’t afford another four years of Repub rule. Winning is non-negotiable.
.
“Which comes closest to your view about what the U.S. should now do about the number of U.S. troops in Iraq? The U.S. should send more troops to Iraq. The U.S. should keep the number of troops as it is now. The U.S. should withdraw some troops from Iraq. OR, The U.S. should withdraw all of its troops from Iraq.”
.
Send More Keep Same
Number Withdraw
Some Withdraw
All Unsure
% % % % %
6/22-24/07
17 16 24 39 3
11/17-19/06
16 21 27 33 3
10/27-29/06
15 17 28 34 6
Hard to read- but 39 Percent of americans now want all the troops withdrawn from Iraq- the number is growing from 34% in Oct 06.
We’re not to the point where there is a majority in favor of total withdrawal NOW- but we’re getting closer with every fuckup the prez makes.
My sister in law had double doses of radiation for lung cancer. She died of a fried esophagus..direct result of her treatment. She was told it was the latest and best way to administer …Pin point radiation is the latest and best… not double doses of reg. You have to research and travel some times but it’s worth it. Her insurance was excellent.
Fearing failure over here so we don’t have to fear our failures everywhere else.
My health care story as told to people on the tour:
In 2002 I was diagnosed with breast cancer and under went surgery and radiation treatment. A month after my diagnoses my husband, Ron, had an intestinal bleed. He was in intensive care for a week and was very sick.
The insurance company decided that my cancer was pre existing. And they only paid 20% of Ron’s bill. We owed $120,000 and were forced into BK.
Our health care adventure did not end there. My cancer came back and
Ron had open heart surgery. I qualified for medi-cal but Ron still had that bad policy. He had no insurance for 2 1/2 years because the cost would have been $2,400.00 a month.
Our house is mortgaged to the max and our retirement is gone. (and any inheritance I might receive is tied up in real estate in New Orleans.)
Ask me if I hate my government.
Hugh @ 188
This AP article purporting to “factcheck” Sicko is a total hit piece by AP Business Writer Linda A. Johnson. The title is “‘Sicko’ Film Gives Accused Little Say”, then it goes on to debunk almost everything Moore says. A total wet kiss to the health care industry from AP.
Like this:
Here’s my favorite part:
So if every other industry’s salaries are huge, that makes it OK? This article is sicko.
Loo Hoo,
What can we do to find Alfred?
Has he ever taken a coupla days off before?
If you know where he lives, we could look him up and call…
Mary- Incredible story…At a MINIMUM the state must require that companies who sell insurance PROVIDE insurance. That doesn’t require any major changes.
Loo
Or, maybe it’s his dad???
Oklahoma kiddo @ 6
I think there is a lot of that sickness going around. Frankly, I think all the front runner stuff for Hillary is mostly from the media and the hope of the GOP. The Democrats I know are either hoping for Gore or supporting Obama.
I’m beginning to think that Kiddo doesn’t like Hillary.
rwcole @ 198
As the framework I think that is the way to go. The question would be how to have the feedback loops to protect the patients from Congress and the federal bean counters…the “sorry were are over budget this quarter..no more coronary care this week”
rwcole @ 212
I’ll second that. And – {{{{{Mary}}}}}
demi @ 212
I don’t know of any way to contact him. He said he was bruised and in pain. Maybe it’s his dad. Don’t know, just worried.
AK – injured himself playing frisbee with his granddaughter or niece.. He checked in sometime last night in pain but feisty as always.
rwcole @ 214
Beginning? ;0)
There’s an interesting article in today’s LA Times regarding the SCOTUS reversing themselves and being willing to look at appeals of Guantanamo prisoners. I read the hard copy and don’t have on-line subscription.
If there isn’t someone here with an on-line subscription who can link the story, I can do a little typing here from my newspaper, if anyone cares to read.
Oh good, thanks, ES. Love the Countryman CD, btw.
Steve
Fortunately- the federal govt is over budget EVERY quarter and it never bothers em. Congress ain’t about to cut care to the point that it causes a loss of votes- in fact that’s the worst part of the system- it could become a bread and circuses centerpiece with parties tryin to fatten it up rather than lean it down.
rwcole @ 215
nor should he. Do YOU want to wake up with January 21, 2016 as the first day after 32 years of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton?
demi @ 221
High court to reconsider Guantanamo
In a rare reversal of themselves, the justices agree to weigh detainees’ right to their day in federal court.
By David G. Savage and Carol J. Williams
Times Staff Writers
June 30, 2007
WASHINGTON — In a surprise move, the Supreme Court agreed Friday to consider whether prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had been wrongly held for years without a fair chance to plead their innocence.
In a brief order before adjourning for the summer, the justices announced they would hear an appeal that in April they had refused to hear. The case asks whether “foreign citizens imprisoned indefinitely” by the U.S. military can go to federal court and, if so, whether their imprisonment amounts to “unlawful confinement” from which a federal judge might free them. The court is to hear arguments next term, which begins Oct. 1.
Court personnel said it had been 60 years since justices had rejected an appeal petition and then reversed themselves and voted to hear the claim.
The switch may reflect frustration among the court’s more liberal and centrist members over the Bush administration’s handling of the Guantanamo issue, according to civil liberties lawyers who have been battling with the government.
Three years ago, the court ruled that the hundreds of prisoners at the U.S. military facility in southern Cuba were entitled to a hearing before a neutral judge to challenge the government’s basis for holding them. In a rebuke to the high court, President Bush and the then-Republican-controlled Congress enacted a law to strip these “unlawful enemy combatants” of their right to be heard in the federal courts.
Friday’s order may signal that a majority of the justices are prepared to rule that the Constitution’s habeas corpus guarantee gives the Guantanamo detainees the right to go to court and contest the government’s reason for holding them.
“The Supreme Court, along with the rest of the nation, should be sick and tired of what it’s seeing in Guantanamo,” said Matthew MacLean, an attorney for four Kuwaiti detainees at the prison. “It’s anybody’s guess what changed the Supreme Court’s mind, but I hope the justices are seeing the discomfort that so many people in this country and abroad have with Guantanamo.”
White House National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe reacted to the justices’ announcement by saying: “We did not think that court review at this time was necessary, but we are confident in our legal position.”
The prison may be closed before the court acts. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates has said he would like to move the detainees to another location, and congressional Democrats have threatened to cut off funding for the current facility.
Despite years of legal skirmishing, little progress has been made in establishing a system for deciding who is a dangerous foreign fighter who should be held prisoner.
Although former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld once described the Guantanamo prisoners as the “worst of the worst,” many of them have been released.
Since terrorism suspects were first brought to Guantanamo five years ago, the Bush administration has argued that foreign fighters who are not part of a regular army have no rights in American law and also are not prisoners of war entitled to rights under the Geneva Convention.
However, in response to the high court’s 2004 ruling, the Pentagon did agree to review the status of each prisoner held at Guantanamo.
During a Combatant Status Review Tribunal, three military officers examine the evidence. The detainee does not have a lawyer.
Last week, an Army lawyer who has participated in several such hearings questioned their fairness. Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham filed a sworn statement in one appeal before the Supreme Court that said officers were pressured to rule in favor of keeping the detainees in prison as “enemy combatants.”
“I certainly think the Abraham declaration proves what everyone has long surmised, that the CSRT process is just a kangaroo court that doesn’t provide any meaningful review,” said David Cynamon, the lead attorney in one of the cases the high court will consider, Al Odah vs. Bush. “It seems to be the straw that broke the camel’s back.”
Cynamon’s client, a Kuwaiti named Fawzi Al Odah, has been held for six years with no charges filed against him.
The case has been consolidated with another involving six Algerian men who lived in Bosnia in the 1990s. They were arrested by Bosnian police in 2001 on suspicion of involvement in terrorism, but the following year the Supreme Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina ordered them released for lack of evidence.
They were immediately taken into custody by the U.S. military, shackled, put under hoods and shipped to Guantanamo, where they have been held since.
The lead plaintiff, Lakhdar Boumediene, was kept in a cold cell and deprived of sleep for 13 consecutive days, according to a report by the Center for Constitutional Rights, an advocacy group representing a number of the detainees.
In April, three of the court’s liberal justices — Stephen G. Breyer, David H. Souter and Ruth Bader Ginsburg — voted to hear the pair of Guantanamo cases. Justices John Paul Stevens and Anthony M. Kennedy said they were willing to wait while the detainees and their lawyers went through an appeal process created by Congress, but the justices agreed that the issues involved were important.
The lawyers for Boumediene and Al Odah petitioned the justices to reconsider, because their clients faced many months of appeals that would almost certainly fail.
Friday’s order did not say who voted to take up the case, but the lawyers involved assumed that Stevens and Kennedy had supplied the fourth and fifth votes.
david.savage@latimes.com
Looks like the folks in NH don’t like being patronized by a Hollywood Big-wig.
-GSD
Ooops!
Ed:
I’m agnostic on Hillary for now.
N=1 @ 151
You might be suprised. If you do a physician search on the web with the AMA and search out a specialty, say in your home town, you might find two or three doctors among a long list that are members. I think they are loosing members like flies, at least in my area.
Mary McCurnin @ 209
I’m so sorry, Mary. You’ve been through the ringer – several wringers. My only thought is wondering if you have tried to price negotiate directly with the healthcare providers? Any possiblity that they would write off any debt under charitable care? Could you barter at all?
A few hospitals have done this with patients in the midwest and east coast. Are there any patient or health advocacy programs at local universities? If so, perhaps a faculty member would steer you to resources or assist you directly. One I know of nationally is Sarah Lawrence College in Bronxville, NY. Its director is Dr. Marsha Hurst.
My fear is that SCOTUS will find for the Boosh Administration.
Hadn’t heard about the reduction in AMA membership. Anyone know what’s behind it?
Referring to the LA Times article, this from yahoo news…
Yahoo Story…
This paragraph is what struck me:
A week ago, lawyers for the detainees filed a statement with the Supreme Court from a military officer who alleged U.S. military panels that classified detainees as enemy combatants for the past four years relied on vague and incomplete intelligence.
N=1 @ 230
Actually we did this with Ron’s surgery bill. The hospital (Mercey in Sac) discounted it a lot. But it still left us with having to re re refinance to pay it.
rwcole @ 223
Maybe things have changed..but years ago, I was helping at a VA hospital and the surgery backlog was two months. One morning I was told that “we” couldn’t have that kind of backlog and 24 hours later I was called into the directors office and told “we” were over budget and had to stop all, except emergency surgery. Says I, “What about all the patients on the list?”; says he “I have to worry about my job”.
Is it just me or does anyone else feel like conservatives are trying to pick Hillary for us?
I think Edwards scares the crap out of them. Maybe Elizabeth more than John,lol.
demi @ 233
Well, they look like terrrrristsss. That’s good enough for me.
-Chimpy McShitheel
BTW, N=1’s blog http://universalhealth.wordpress.com/ has a lot of very good stuff on the healthcare crisis.
rwcole @ 232
Same thing since the 70’s. They take your money and do what with it. Why should a practitioner participate?
AMA used to be huge. But they lost their edge.
Thanks Raven.
Ed*ard Teller @ 196
I believe it was Larry Johnson (former CIA intel on Terror) who stated on Countdown last night that since the ’70s, there have been something on the order of 50K deaths from terror attacks. total. And that WWII had over 50Million deaths. He also was pointing out the differences in scale and the stupidity of the culture of fear pushed by the rethugs.
#224 should have read “28″ years, rather than “32.”
Hi PW – great post! I am going to interview the doctor who prescribes for me for my book. He has been in drug development for 18 years. I can’t wait to hear what he has to say.
rwcole @ 232
It all depends on just how guilty Kennedy feels about being the pivot man between fascism and democracy.
-GSD
GSD @ 234
There was some stuff on this on Countdown last night. It seems that the thing that tipped this was one of the military judges involved going public with the fact that the military commissions are a sham.
New thread
Blue America Welcomes Daniel Biss IL-17
Steve @ 72
Driftglass was talking about body count as a benchmark of success. Go see.
rwcole @ 232
Conjecture: fear that the AMA smacks of “unionism,” which is beneath true professionals, like MDs.
The AMA would seem to be docs lobbying agency. With the sentiment for system change, you’d think that they would want a loud voice in congress. Odd that they don’t support theirs.
wig
Was wondering about that one myself.
Loo Hoo. @ 200
Yesterday, he did say his granddaughter put him back in bed.
Mary McCurnin @ 234
When 30-40 dollars out of every 100 spent go to administrative costs, people begin to understand why it’s not the physicians’ and nurses’ salaries that are the problems with healthcare costs. It’s the foul stuff coming directly from healthcare insurance and BigPharma. Hospitals pay for layer upon layer of staff just to handle claims and to make claims appeals and to handle the complicated reimbursement regulations and on and on. the same goes for each and every medical office, which is why there are so few solo or small practices, and why patient visits are 10 to 15 minutes in length, and why the care is gone from physician and nurse patient relationships, and why patients aren’t complaint since they don’t get enough individual attention and counseling.
On and on and on – and in every single case, the patient pays on a continuum of inconvenience, discomfort, to prolonged suffering and preventable deaths.
The key is to separate the concepts of insurance from health CARE. They get conflated, confused and that’s exactly what big insurance wants. As long as they can sell their snake oil under the guise of CARE, they’re in business. It’s when Insurance gets equated with fraud and theft that will finally mobilize people to vote in their own best interests.
As with any other industry that becomes obsolete, there are ample opportunities to retrain and re-educate insurance industry employees to other fields. There are two hundred thousand unfilled nursing positions, just off the top of my head. There can still be a health insurance industry – for concierge care, for cosmetic procedures and for elective non formulary drugs and procedures. But insurance isn’t the industry that has any relationship to health.
Mary @ 231, I think that’s what it’s all about and can’t understand why the majority opinion is the Supremes have seen the light.
wigwam @ 245
I like to think that fdl among others has provided a safe haven for those who would like to speak out and are afraid. According to Sidney Blumenthal they are legion.
One of our commenters said he didn’t mind being a casualty, he just didn’t want to be the ONLY one. We are making it clear that there are many of us and that we will support each other in speaking out about egregious violations of the law, broken treaties including the Geneva Conventions, and the tattered Constitution itself.
dakine01 @ 241
Sounds good, my only comment would be that I’d like to see a little less fear mongering here on the Lake as well. Fire away!
punaise @ 175
After Sicko has been out there a week or so, the division will be crystal clear, just like it was with F9/11. The people will get Mike’s message and love the film. The elitist pundits will pick it like a carcus to placate the corporate media and their backers. Even though this movie mainly reflects on our system of health insurance, don’t you think Pharma is nervous too. When was the last time you saw a pharma commercial on TV-maybe 30 seconds ago. Every candidate will talk the talk for health care reform. But until the campaign contributions can no longer flow, talk is all we will get.
truth @ 210
Yes, I hope you don’t think I thought it was objective. The AP article is an exercise in putting out “facts” that don’t really refute the argument that Moore is making but give the appearance of doing so. The AP for many news organizations has become a critical source of basic information and news. It is interesting how editorializing this coverage often is.
raven @ 192
check out what Larry Johnson has to say about the London bomb – at No Quarter
wigwam @ 248
Actually, no. The AMA has bled members due to its loss of impact as a lobbyist. When the docs’ salaries were constrained via malpractice premiums and increased insurance regulation and associated costs, the bloom went off the AMA rose. Another trend is for physicians to become hospital employees (ED physicians and hospitalists), and this has also eroded membership.
Raven,
Sounds good, my only comment would be that I’d like to see a little less fear mongering here on the Lake as well. Fire away!
I must agree with you. Hope is stronger than fear. There is a strange relationship between some of the cynicsm I sometimes read here and that Fear.
The AMA worked for doctors when they were at the top of the heap. Now that they have been knocked down and are trying to regain their dignity I wonder how long it will take them to organize. They won’t call it a union though. That is so lower middle class. /snark
Fear is a sickness.
-GSD
We’ve got three wars to fight:
Iraq
Health Care
and
Energy
There are vested interests deep within each war. This ain’t a gonna be easy- and if there’s no dem in the White House- america loses.
Iraq may actually be the easiest war. Goopers want to turn down the heat on the damned thing by election day. We will probably at least see a drawdown announced by then.
raven @ 192
Because 90% of the reporting is speculation about who is responsible. Because no other news is being reported, and the fact is, no one was killed. Because US troops went into Sadr City and endured heavy fighting. Because troops have been killed in the last couple of days, but all we here 24/7 is Paris Hilton or car bombs. Car bombs go off a bunch of times every single day in Iraq. Tomatoes are getting rather expensive though.
We are going to have to fight the army corp of engineers also. That entire entity needs to be douched.
GSD @ 262
i disagree (unless it’s irrational).
fear can be helpful – if it used to motivate to appropriate action.
fear can be unhelpful – if it paralyzes.
p.s. perhaps it is my recent (last ten days) response to h.con.r.21 that you are referring to?
Mary McCurnin @ 265
Hear! Hear! or Here! Here! or whatever it is. Remember Katrina.
That’s a lot of vinegar.
Kathryn in MA @ 258
hilarious! thank you for the laugh!
Selise,
I think that anger is the better motivator.
I think fear tends more to inaction.
demi @ 270
that may vary with different people… but the two are not mutually exclusive.
Fear and Anger are closely related. One gets angry at the thing one fears.
selise @ 269
Perfect. The latest is that they evacuated the hospital where they were taken, because one of them was wearing some kind of vest. So they removed the vest and took it out and blew it up in a controlled explosion.
If they were trying to commit suicide, why did they run out and away from the car when it caught on fire? Come..on..
selise @ 271
Right. Didn’t mean to quibble.
Not mutually exclusive, and a little laughter (Larry Johnson sytle) helps get us through.
There’s somethin a bit pee culiar bout these GB bombings…Amatuer hour?
Hillary now holding a two to one advantage in primary voting. It’s WAY early- but she’s doin better than most expected- I had some friends visiting a few weeks ago who were surprisingly high on her. She may be the one.
burnspbesq @ 205
I don’t know how I would have made it through the day without your wonderfully sage lectures.
So the good news is that the US killed 26 Iraqis- the bad news is that at least 8 of em were mindin their own business watchin TeeVee or playin Pinochle:
BAGHDAD – American soldiers rolled into Baghdad’s Shiite Sadr City slum on Saturday in search of Iranian-linked militants and as many as 26 Iraqis were killed in what a U.S. officer described as “an intense firefight.”
But residents, police and hospital officials said eight civilians were killed in their homes and angrily accused U.S. forces of firing blindly on the innocent. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki condemned the raids and demanded an explanation for the assault into a district where he has barred U.S. operations in the past.
Separately, two American solders were charged with the premeditated murder of three Iraqis, the U.S. military said Saturday. And in Muqdadiyah, 60 miles north of the capital, police said a suicide bomber blew himself up near a crowd of police recruits, killing at least 23 people and wounding 17.
Wonder how a US Troop knows if he’s facin a “Iran backed militant” or a guy jest gettin home from a soccer match…
It’s not a good idea to let armed soldiers go through the streets in a country they don’t understand shootin whatever strikes em.
Hillary. One thing can be said for the Senator. She records herself as a member of the Democratic Party. And for me, that’s about it.
Since most of the Iraqis are either shiite or sunni- and since they are both involved in the “war” the troops are makin progress no matter WHO they kill?
Who ta kill?- THAT’S the question.
Hillary for prez. Is this a great DLC, or what?
“Gotta gun fulla bullets
and more by my side
Lookin fer the enemy
He’s got no where ta hide
I see him in the shadows
Speakin foreign tongue
Eatin moslem pizza
singin songs I never sung
It’s hard ta kill the right ones-
when the wrong ones look so right
It’s easy to plug a baby-
In the dark of the Baghdad night.
“The UK has a unitary government and that makes it much easier to coordinate…” MSNBC
Aha!!!
Unitary Executive?
What’s the UK govt. co-ordinating? Bombings?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 283
well, if i have to choose between the neocon and the neolib wing of corporate america – i’ll choose the neolib. but i won’t be happy about it.
i want better choices.
rwcole @ 286
They were saying that the “unitary government” makes it much easier to coordinate response to events like the car bomb thingy, instead of having to go through so many pesky checks and balances like the US. That is pretty much what they just said.
LS–Odd sort of thing to say under the circumstances- it was an ambulance driver who stopped the bombing in Picadilly- and NO ONE stopped the airport one- nor is there any news about who’s responsible.
selise @ 287
;0)
landofthefree @ 94
An here lies the real danger of anecdotal arguments. One can find anecdotes to back any position. The problem is that for the most part, all they do is reinforce what people already believe.
I support the troops. Bring them home.
rwcole @ 289
Somebody..is taking advantage of the situation by making that kind of statement..if you ask me. But, what do I know. Odd wording.
Two Asian men. Hmmmm. Must be Al Qaeda.
Ya have ta wonder how so many totally incompetent terrorists got together within such a short time frame. Must be CIA.
English cops apparently always say the same thing:
“HUNDREDS could have been killed!!”
A statement that apparently could only have been true if the hundreds tried to EAT the cars.
Maybe these two guys were driving by the terminal and for some reason the car caught on fire, so they panicked or lost control of the car and drove into the terminal – then they jumped out of the car because they were getting burned and one of them was wearing a vest. Maybe that is all this is.
rwcole @ 295
lol
Drugs- they were all on drugs–really shitty drugs.
rwcole @ 298
They took new CIA drugs that make you invisible when they were in the cars in London.
Depressed at the prospect of missing their plane- the two southeast asian men decided to turn their car into a torch and sacrafice themselves at the altar of better time management.
Maybe whoever these people are, really are very bad drivers. The first Mercedes in London was apparently driving erratically with smoke coming out of it too.
Has anyone yet explained the smoke? Cigarettes?
LS
I don’t think one is supposed to comment on the purported poor skills of asian drivers.
So Hai and I are drivin down the road with a load of gasoline we’re deliverin to friends- and Hai lights up a Marlboro. “Hai- says I- you wanna blow us sky high?”
Exactly how many nails were there in those cars? Yesterday, they said there were cannisters of “petrol” then there were cannisters of propane, then there were cannisters of butane, now they are back to “petrol”. So, if I have cans of gasoline in my car and boxes of nails, am I a terrorist if I am a bad driver and my car catches on fire? Oh, yeah, I am if W says I am, and I don’t even need nails and gasoline in my car. He can just decide that I am because he feels like it. /s
These guys weren’t middle eastern- so they read the terrorist manual backwards.
rwcole @ 303
I wasn’t making such a connection at all. The fact that these two are suppposedly Asian has nothing to do with what I was saying.
New british comedy show–”stupid terrorist tricks”.
LS– Yeah- right- big coincidence!!
rwcole @ 308
lol. The whole story is bizarre. Now, they’re saying “terrorist acts are imminent” or something like that. D’oh If you say so…
rwcole @ 309
ditto
If there’s a Camry comin at you- and it’s LIMPING- get the hell out of the way!!!
Perhaps I’m old fashioned. But winning isn’t everything.
I’ve said since 2003 that the dem candidate that vows to work toward single payer universal health care would win hands down. Trouble is the madia (what a type but I’ll leave it) only laughs at Kucinich.
Gore/Kucinich 2008!
I’m off to help hike up Sicko’s opening weekend boxoffice take. You should go too.
Winning ain’t everything- but it sure as hell beats LOSING.
LS @ 264
Yea but the fresh ones at the farmers market are great!
type=typo
There is zero correlation between poor driving and being Asian. That is a myth somebody made up and has nothing to do with my comments. Just to be clear about that.
Canned tomatoes make better shrapnel.
Are all he automoiles of London blazing, or is that just one car?
LS
Where do you live?
Well screw it, I’m so scared of the terrorists and a blackwater backed military takeover I’m just going to the fetal position and see if I can type from there!
rwcole @ 316
So then… winning is everything?
Frank33 @ 321
All the cars in London, especially Mercedes, are blazing away with invisible drivers. The blazing car in Scotland had visible drivers.
rwcole @ 322
Texas
raven @ 323
lol
We have sunshine here. Are you getting blue skies in Texas?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 328
Finally!!! Very steamy though.
LS @ 325
I am very, very afraid. They are now attacking innocent automobiles…The terrorists may have won if ny mini van is not safe.
Now they are saying the guy was wearing an explosive vest that was detonated, but that it an unconfirmed report. An hour ago, they said one of the guys was wearing a vest and that they took it off and blew it up in a controlled explosion (the way they always blow up people’s backpacks)…
The thing is: The authorities blew up on purpose the two cars in London and the vest. The car in Scotland was on fire and blew up, because it was on fire.
Spin, spin, spin.
Why would you “blow up” all of the evidence? Fingerprints, etc. Hogwash.
I’ve been running out checking my mini van hourly to see if it’s taken up smoking.
This interview by a Scottish reporter and a Glasgow airport employee is fascinating.
rwcole @ 332
They mess with my 66 chevy pickup they’ll have a real squabble on their hands!
If yer auto asks for a pack of Marlboros- be afraid- be VERY afraid.
Took the lighter and ashtray out of my Mazda so that it wouldn’t be tempted.
rwcole @ 332
707
LS @ 329
;0)
Cars and Minivans have had enough!!! They have joined Al Carda
Gotta fight the asian cars THERE or they’ll follow us HOME.
The London cars were stolen in Glasgow (holy shit I better put “according to CNN”)!
“stolen in Glasgow”
Oops- Robert the Bruce!
Never mind the cigarettes, watch out that the cars and minivans don’t get hold of yer cellphone….yeah….that’s how they do it don’t cha know…They start smoking, then they answer the phone when onstar calls and kablambo. They’ve got it all figured out…and god forbid if the driver is wearing a vest…it’s all over…
Also, RE: the wall-to-wall cable news coverage. Generally, on the weekends, they show the same stupid “doc block” show all day.
The cars are cursed with premature ejaculation.
raven @ 344
MSNBC is obsessed with prisons all weekend too.
MSNBC is obsessed with prisons EVERYDAY….Must be cultivating the San Quentin market share.
MSNBC just said “PERHAPS” related to terrorist incidents in England and Scotland….
Backstroke!
Sharon @ 315
That’s the ticket. ;0)
Could be that a lot of scotsmen are so terrified of terrorists that they are blowin themselves up PREEMPTIVELY.
CNN reports the burned suspect died.
“burned suspect dead”
Coward!!
rwcole @ 350
They need that dude from Trainspotting to take care of. . .anything that moves!
raven @ 351
That is NOT funny.
LS @ 354
And something about those 6 words made you think I was being funny?
IF the guy was wearing an explosive vest, maybe it caught on fire instead of detonating, which would be why they jumped out of the car.
raven @ 355
Not at all. I’ve been joking around, and I feel guilty.
Terrorists who couldn’t bomb straight- it’s a fuckin epidemic!!!!
rwcole @ 350
That is what I was thinking! I am no expert but no one would ever suspect the Scottish are terrorists. They have been fighting the English occupation for hundreds of years, but I should google it to check.
LS @ 356
Most reports seem to say he and the car was on fire in the front and he jumped out an tried to open the back of the SUV. When you look at the fire it sure looks like LP gas that is burning.
Sounds like they got information from the 2 guys, and they believe other attacks are imminent. They are saying the report of the death of the one is unconfirmed, but that is MSNBC. CNN wouldn’t report it, I don’t think, unless they had confirmation.
raven @ 360
What is LP?
Liquid propane?
LS @ 362
Liquid Petroleum, the brits call it patio gas. It’s the canisters that fire grills, heaters and stuff like that. It’s can be really volatile but has to be set off properly.
I, for one, will spend July 4th at home – not in any crowded place.
Mary McCurnin @ 363
Liquefied petroleum gas (propane).
They said they blew up the two cars in London. Why would they do that?
>LS @ 367
I don’t think they did. They have talked a lot about how much evidence they have gathered from those vehicles. They might blow something in place if they were unsure what was in it.
LS @ 365
Good policy any 4th. Too many morons with ordinance out there!
I gotta do something constructive, peace out pups!
raven @ 369
On Y2K eve, I went to downtown Austin with friends. There were 200,000 people in the streets. Scared me to bits. I was standing in building doorways, because I was afraid of being crushed if something panicked the crowd. I would never, ever do something like that again. Shudder…
Phoenix Woman @ 93
Coming in late and just catching up. Boy! You got that right! All the superior weapons our troops have won’t quell the blood bath that will come at them. These are warriors and not ignorant people as they are depicted. These are vendetta societies (as are most) and they never forget. The debt will be paid sooner or later. It is being tallied as we message.
We need ta kill the shiites on account of they might kill sunnis- and we gotta kill sunnis on account of they might kill shia..it’s really even handed what we do in Iraq.
So if you were in charge of the US Military effort in Iraq- who would YOU kill?
Whoever heard of gettin into a war where ya don’t know who the enemy is? Our president- that’s who?
“General-this is the president- I think you need to kill more people- the politics of this thing aren’t gettin any better- let’s SURGE”
Or how about “we must win”. In my universe win/lose is for games. I don’t know of any wins in a war. War is lose/lose. Check out Flanders and see how many “winners” are there. Everyone needs to recover from loses in a war and they do that for generations.
rwcole @ 375
Uh, the one I was in.
New figures show that Medicare “Advantage” plans offered by HMO’s are 12% more eXpensive than straight Medicare. How can this subsidy be defended/
In Australia, we enjoy the Medicare single payer, tax-payer funded universal healthcare system.There would be a revolution if any government attempted to tear it down.
America needs to remove the underpinning profit-driven mantra from its public health system if it wants to haul itself out of the quagmire.
Jo-Ann @ 152
So, insurance chooses not to pay on policies. Nothing new about that, huh? What’s the cure that hit’s ‘em in the wallet very very hard?
We need to begin suggesting every kind of fix or change for the better that we can imagine. Just complaining isn’t enough and certainly isn’t appropriate for Progressives or any kind of Democrat.
molly @ 202
Apparently we have to separate the profit motive from health care professionals and their decision-making or make the cost of failures and lies very very expensive.
N=1 @ 259
So, doctors are very sensitive to their pay being reduced by law suits. Who wouldn’t be? Does this tell us they are facing too many frivolous suits or they’re being forced to pay too much as a result of suits? What’s the truth of the medical malpractice lawsuits issue?
bob h @ 379
What is that plan? I’ve never heard of it? How can it be offered by a private HMO and be called a ‘Medicare’ plan?