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(Please welcome Salon blogger and author Glenn Greenwald who is here to discuss his book A Tragic Legacy: How a Good vs. Evil Mentality Destroyed the Bush Presidency. You can read an excerpt here — JH)
After 9/11, I remember being quite surprised that the US government would so freely use the phrase “good and evil” when our attackers had been extreme religious fanatics. Laden as those words are with religious association, it seemed to me to be fanning the flames when a smarter approach would have been to distance ourselves from such rhetoric and try to redirect the focus to more rational ground. I did a post quite early on in which I compared speeches by George W. Bush and Osama bin Laden in which their frequent references to God and good and evil and satan were nearly indistinguishable. Both speeches could have come right out of the 13th century. (It was one of the creepiest posts I ever did, and I recall that at the time we were in the grip of such paranoia, I wondered if I would gather the attention of the authorities for writing such a thing.)
From very early on Bush used archaic religious verbal constructions like “the evil ones” and “evil-doers.” Perhaps the most startling example is what he reportedly told Palestinian Prime Minister Mamhoud Abbas in 2003: “God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.” Yikes.
It turns out that anachronistic verbiage was much more than boneheaded rhetoric. As Glenn Greenwald convincingly lays out in devastating detail in his new book “A Tragic Legacy: How a Good vs. Evil Mentality Destroyed the Bush Presidency”, this war between “good ‘n evil” became the all-purpose justification for the lawless usurpation of the bedrock values of our constitution. From the extended excerpt in Salon Magazine:
Because the threat posed by The Evil Terrorists is so grave, maximizing protections against it is the paramount, overriding goal. No other value competes with that objective, nor can any other value limit our efforts to protect ourselves against The Terrorists.
That is the essence of virtually every argument Bush supporters make regarding terrorism. No matter what objection is raised to the never-ending expansions of executive power, no matter what competing values are touted (due process, the rule of law, the principles our country embodies, how we are perceived around the world), the response will always be that The Terrorists are waging war against us and our overarching priority — one that overrides all others — is to protect ourselves, to triumph over Evil. By definition, then, there can never be any good reason to oppose vesting powers in the government to protect us from The Terrorists because that goal outweighs all others.
But our entire system of government, from its inception, has been based upon a very different calculus — that is, that many things matter besides merely protecting ourselves against threats, and consequently, we are willing to accept risks, even potentially fatal ones, in order to secure those other values. From its founding, America has rejected the worldview of prioritizing physical safety above all else, as such a mentality leads to an impoverished and empty civic life. The premise of America is and always has been that imposing limitations on government power is necessary to secure liberty and avoid tyranny even if it means accepting an increased risk of death as a result. That is the foundational American value.
It is this courageous demand for core liberties even if such liberties provide less than maximum protection from physical risks that has made America bold, brave, and free. Societies driven exclusively or primarily by a fear of avoiding Evil, minimizing risks, and seeking above all else that our government “protects” us are not free. That is a path that inevitably leads to authoritarianism — an increasingly strong and empowered leader in whom the citizens vest ever-increasing faith and power in exchange for promises of safety. That is most assuredly not the historical ethos of the United States.
No, it is not. Greenwald has written a book that finally gets to the meat of the matter and addresses the underlying error that has led inexorably to all the errors that followed. The Bush administration took a simplistic, Manichean, “good vs evil” approach to the threat of Islamic terrorism, and in that one act handed them a victory. One of the great advances of our civilization is the recognition that the line between good and evil is not between one group and another group; the line between good and evil lies inside every human being. All it took was a handful of religious fanatics with a willingness to commit suicide to make an awful lot of Americans forget that.
All of you know that Glenn is a writer of rare insight who cuts through the spin and the rhetoric to see the underlying motives and impulses that drive this administration to consistently seek to weaken, if not destroy, the fundamental tenets of our constitution. There is nobody writing today who can as forcefully explain, with both lawyerly precision and personal passion, just how important it is that Americans take these issues seriously if we want to preserve our democracy. The greatest threat to our way of life comes not from the terrorists but from our own complacency in allowing a creeping authoritarianism to change our definition of what it is to be a free people.
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Glenn Greenwald to the FDL Book Salon …



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Glenn!
WHOO-HOOOO!!
Digby and Glenn!
How are you guys?
Hi everyone – Thanks for the great introduction, Digby. And thanks to Jane and FDL for hosting.
Welcome back, Glenn — and thanks so much for writing this book. It’s a much needed one at this point in our history. A huge thanks to Digby as well for such a great intro.
(On hold with Sam Seder at the moment, but I’ll be hitting the refresh button…and wanted to put in my “read this” to everyone. It’s a great read!)
Glenn, just wanted to thank you for your daily contributions. I’ve ordered your book and am anxiously awaiting its arrival.
Welcome Glenn and Digby (great speech BTW). Hi Trex.
Does downstairs know you’re here?
Welcome back Glenn (great post today on the everyone is al Qaeda theme) — and thanks to digby for the fine introduction — and the great speech at TBA!
Glenn, what kind of feedback are you seeing from your “They’re All Al Quaeda Now” post? Does it ever alarm you how much all the language manipulation is like “Brave New World”?
We have always been at war with Eastasia!
Glenn – I spend most of my time at some distance from the US, and people here wonder how we elected such an idiot (ignoring that they’ve re-elected racist conservative John Howard twice). Do you think we’ve learned a lesson for 2008?
Glenn — lots of focus lately on our imperial Vice President. Any thoughts on the relationship betwen Cheney’s view of the world and Bush’s — and how the two reinforce each other?
Hi, Folks.
I’m sorry; I wish I had a question to get the conversation rolling, but unfortunately, I just want to add to the “you’re doing great work, Glenn” chorus.
You’re doing great work, Glenn. Keep it up.
You too, Digby.
-Adam
Glenn,
So good to be here.
Naturally I’m curious about what you make of the article about Dick Cheney in the Washington Post and how if applies to your thesis.
Personally, I think you have hit the nail on the head. Not only does Cheney see this “war” as a simple matter of good ‘n evil, he very cynically manipulated his charge with the cheap Cecil B DeMille style religious rhetoric that made him believe he was answering directly to God.
Wouldn’t you love to have heard those conversations as Dick convinced him that God wanted him to torture people? Aye, yay, yay…
You don’t read Glenn often enough if you wonder about his alarm regarding media/govt language manipulation.
TRex – That post has received a lot of attention, principally because, I think, the propaganda shift is so audacious and transparent. And it’s one thing for the administration to try such a gambit, but it’s another entirely for the media to swallow it so quickly and completely.
On one level, it’s almost signifies an entirely new level of media mindlessness, which I honestly didn’t think was possible.
Glenn, could you comment on the recent revelations that not only has the VP’s office not complied with security reporting (and tried to kill the agency itself) but we now know the WH has also refused to comply. Is there any way to resolve the legal issues here, or can the executive branch continue to just flout the law as they will?
Re: Cheney – I think the reason Cheney has been able to exert as much power as he has is because he understands how Bush thinks and works. He knows how to package the foreign policy/warmaking agenda to appeal to Bush’s messianic mission and evangelical calling. The domestic plan – the Omnipotent White House – is easier still, since Bush inherently believes he can act without limits or restraints of any kind.
But there is no question that they all adopted the premise long ago that they were on the side of Good and thus no limits were warranted or justifiable, and that anyone who attempted to impose limits of any kind – whether foreign or domestic – was either an unwitting or deliberate ally of Evil. That’s their animating view.
Welcome back, Glenn. You’re our first returnee. You’ve been on fire at Salon recently — so happy to see you back here and back in print again.
Labeling those the U.S. is fighting “Al Qaida,” seems like a way of re-identifying matters as a war than an occupation. Battling by brand name makes it so much easier, doesn’t it? When the complexity of the reality is admitted, it’s far more obvious that the U.S. occupation forces are not succeeding either at protecting the Iraqi citizenry nor establishing an effective police/national guard force (thanks again, Paul Bremer). Also, it’s easier (I believe) to bury stories about torture (http://washingtonbureau.typepad.com/baghdad/2007/06/shiite-fear-of-.html) and kidnappings (http://washingtonbureau.typepad.com/baghdad/2007/06/high_school_det.html)
Mike Drummond of McClatchy Newspapers noted this today: ” U.S. military has identified more than 20 enemy insurgent and militia groups in Baghdad, including the Mahdi Army, armed followers of anti-U.S. Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr. Al Qaida in Iraq is “enemy No. 1,” Garver said. “But not the only enemy.”
Odd, how little attention seems to be paid to the McClatchy Baghdad bureau, which is doing such great work.
Glenn,
A fair number of people put this out in bad faith, but I think it’s an important legitimate question, and FDL is the ideal place to address it: How do we taking on this Manichean worldview, avoid falling into a similar mindset ourselves, particularly since those we are opposing have so little to redeem them? How do we keep our balance, remain cognizant of our own capacity to do evil, and yet put the full weight of our effort into saving our country?
Unfortunately, my view is that until Congress decides to truly assert its power and a far more direct and public way there will be no change to the flagrant lawlessness and continual absurdities coming from the WH. The media will be of marginal (at best) independant help.
Glenn Greenwald @ 14
Well, you know, the people in place right now like Russert and Matthews don’t want to lose their place on the Cheneys’ Christmas party invitation list, so they do whatever is asked of them. When I watch the TV news, I’m flabbergasted at how disconnected they are.
But of course, if they were telling the truth, then there’d be no need for us.
Justed wanted to take this opportunity to say hello to Glenn and to thank you for all you are doing. Your incisive analysis of the steady misinformation stream is a daily must read in my home.
what do you think about cheney declaring himself a planet of his own, not bound by laws affecting … anyone?
has he really gone insane at last?
Joel – It actually becomes difficult to comment story-by-story on the administration’s lawlessness. Treating Cheney’s “executive branch” theory as though it’s a real legal theory that requires refutation seems worthless.
It’s well-established now that their principal belief is that they act without limits. They have White House lawyers (led by David Addington) who then create theories to allow that to happen. Those thories are not real beliefs, just tools to justify a complete disregard of any limits on their conduct.
Glenn – thanks for taking the time this afternoon, and I’m looking forward to reading your book. Questions:
1) What does the message need to sound like from Progressive politicians to counter the good/evil framework?
2) With the various neocon proponents continuing to publicly advocate the most dangerous of ideas (great post on Podhoretz this week, by the way), what do you think of the way the Right is being sold on Fred Thompson as a “real Conservative” while not bothering to question his fellowship with AEI and association with Bill Kristol’s Weekly Standard? Is this an insignificant connection?
glenn — first off, you are awesome
question: do you believe this is true, or just marketing to the base: “Bush’s messianic mission and evangelical calling” /// it’s not clear to me that bush believes in anything more than lunch at noon and dinner at 5
thnx for all you do …
Glenn, does the Bush presidency incompetence in areas such as Katrina follow from your arguments in this book or are they another kettle of fish so to speak?
Glenn Greenwald @ 14
I don’t think it was a coincidence that most of the NYT articles you cited today were
transcribedwritten by Michael Gordon. It was Gordon who told us a few days ago that Odierno had come up with the new military technique of guarding the back door while you break in the front – as though no one had every thought of it before — and then yesterday’s article, written by a different correspondent, said, “whoops, look like they already slipped out the back door.” A compliant media makes it a lot easier for Bush/Cheney to sell their delusions.Glenn,
Re: Shift to “al-Qaeda” is the Enemy in Iraq…
Is it media mindlessness or willing complicity?
We’ve seen so many instances of Big Media cooperation with the Propaganda Ministries of both the White House and the Pentagon, for pretty much the entire Bush regime. The shift to the “al-Qaeda in Iraq” enemy designation — uncritically accepted by all — fits right in to the pre-existing scheme.
The question I have now is whether the People are buying it.
wrt @ 26
Don’t forget daily bike rides and bedtime at 9:30 sharp. He really is seven years old.
Re: Media mindlessness
Isn’t that more likely media (reporters) as obedient workers to corporate goals?
The reporting doesn’t strike me as mindless so much as it does deliberate propagandizing and intentional diversion of the public’s attention.
Your thoughts?
hmm. I guess I have no questions about Cheney’s ability to influence Bush–I don’t think he really tries. not to get all consp. theory, but more and more, it seems apparent that Cheney’s the CEO of the current corporate presidency, and Bush is simply the biggest Useful Idiot of all time. except he’s no longer of any use…”aw shucks, wanna have a beer with me?” doesn’t play too well any more.
Paul – I really disagree with those who claim that Americans are not susceptible to reasoned argument, that emotional appeals outweight rational discourse.
One can make rational arguments with passion and conviction and which have an emotional component, yet are still grounded in reasoned analysis.
Both the 2006 elections and the remarkable collapsed polling numbers for Bush — unparalelled in modern history in terms of duration and intensity — demonstrate that Americans on their own have dispensed with these Manichean cartoons. They see that they have brought the country into jeopardy and disrepute.
I think the country wants to have a substitute that makes good common sense and is convincing. There is no need to simply replicate the Good/Evil framework in order to refute it. People know instinctively that the world is complex, that few things are pure Good or pure Evil, and that reality prevents us from making decisions based upon those sorts of manipulative appeals.
Che Pasa @ 29
Unfortunately, I think they are buying it. Many people I talk to just dont get it.
Welcome Glenn.
First I must say that your How Would a Patriot Act is 128 pages of pure gold. It is brilliantly clear and meaningful. It belongs in everyone’s library.
I’m sorry to say that the local Barnes and Noble store didn’t have your book, so I was only able to read the portions here or elsewhere on the Net. It should be in my hands this week.
I wanted to say that your thesis is something I’ve researched for several decades. In researching books dealing with a nuclear exchange (Soviet Union v United States) in the early 60s I ran across the works of the British historian Norman Cohn and his book, The Pursuit o fje Millennium: Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages.
One of Cohn’s overarching theories is that eventually, millenarians lead to a kind of fascism, that a “cult of good and evil” results in sectarian violence which in turn lead to gross large scale massacres, and the eventual attempt to murder all of Jewry and gypsies.
There seems to be a wide swath of that here in the United States. You can see evidence of that in these “end of days” novels which populate the best seller lists.
What I’m uncertain of his how deep this belief runs and I’d like your opinion.
Welcome, Glenn and Digby. Read you both every day. Glenn, you used to write more about the legal aspects of our constitutional crisis. Recently, you have become a media critic–and a d**n good one! Why the shifting emphasis?
thereisnorule6 –
One thing that is so notable is that – other than tax cuts — domestic issues have been virtually absent over the last six years, pushed almost entirely to the background. That’s because any issues which require actual governance as opposed to glorious evangelical triumph bores Bush and Cheney, and I think Katrina is explained as much by that as anything else – trying to prevent people from drowning and starving in New Orleans could not have been any less important to them.
Glenn Greenwald @ 34
Glenn, I hope that you are right, but how do we know that people are not simply tired of the continual fear mongering and impatient with the war? I’m not yet convinced that the general public has a deeper conviction.
Responding to Glenn at #15, I think it’s an extreme version of American exceptionalism, which is a concept that was bound to get us in trouble at some point.
I’m sure you have this quote in the book, but when I heard it in Bush’s first (very shaky) prime time press conference after 9/11, it was the first time I actually got frightened for the future of the country:
You know, I’m asked all the time — I’ll ask myself a question. (Laughter.) How do I respond to — it’s an old trick — (laughter) — how do I respond when I see that in some Islamic countries there is vitriolic hatred for America? I’ll tell you how I respond: I’m amazed. I’m amazed that there is such misunderstanding of what our country is about, that people would hate us. I am, I am — like most Americans, I just can’t believe it. Because I know how good we are, and we’ve got to do a better job of making our case.
In order to manage a crisis one must remain above the fray. But Cheney/Bush wasn’t man enough to do that. He had to get down to their level to duke it out, both verbally (name calling) and physically (a war of choice). Maybe it’s the Texas mentality. We desperately need adult leadership again.
Thanks, Glen, for yet another view into this failed presidency.
I like this post.
glenn –
you are so 100% right on identifying the issues
how can we create the solutions
Grayslady
It’s a good question. Part of it is just interest. There are only so many times I can argue that the Bush administration has embraced tyrannical theories and does not believe in the rule of law or our defining American values — I wrote a book about it, blogged about it every day for almost 2 years, etc.
But more substantively, I realized when writing about the NSA scandal that it doesn’t matter how compelling your arguments are or how much evidence you amass. If a corrupt, stupid, manipulated and vapid press continues to be the guardians of our political discourse, few things matter. Finding a way to change that – shaming them into changing and/or creating alternatives to communicate ideas — is a pre-requisite for everything else.
Glenn Greenwald @ 24
With the latest round of attention these are getting, it might be worthwhile to re-examine how this all got started with Bush v. Gore. I reviewed a slew of books about it and the other legal cases involved in the election–mostly for Publishers Weekly, before 9/11 came along and took everyone’s attention away.
Before then, however, I did not find one legal authority arguing for the majority decision. Posner argued for the result, but he would not argue for the decision itself. John Yoo–who contributed a chapter to a book I reviewed–would not even bother to go as far as Posner. He just breezed on by the decision itself, effectively saying, “Why bother? It’s done.”
It seemed transparent that the majority simply put something together with the appearance of legal reasoning–much like everything we’ve seen since.
Any thoughts on this? Any thoughts on re-examining it sometime in the near future?
The general public is never consulted. Just the other day some “expert” announced that “American are different” when it comes to Health Care and “don’t want the government involved.”
There is of course no basis for such a statement.
If a corrupt, stupid, manipulated and vapid press continues to be the guardians of our political discourse, few things matter. Finding a way to change that – shaming them into changing and/or creating alternatives to communicate ideas — is a pre-requisite for everything else.
… thank you for saying this so simply and clearly
… it is what fdl and tpm more than anyone bring to the table: reporting and opinion that make the case for truth and justice
I don’t have a question, but I want to thank you both for the great work you’re doing. I read Glenn every day (the only thing I read at Salon, btw, except for Tom Tomorrow) and I’ve been reading Digby since she was posting at Atrios’ site. Nothing points out the criminally-negligent state of our “punditocracy” better than comparing any random selection of your writings to any of the dreck churned out by morons like Broder, Cohen, Joke Line, etc. etc. etc. Keep it up, kids!
Glenn,
how did someone like Tony Blair get sucked into this? He seems much too reasonable.
Wow, an awesome assemblage here at the Lake! Many of the Legends here on the thread! Tis a honor to attend!!! P.S. Digby that was an inspirational speech!!! 8-)
I just want to say hi. I’m working through the book now, it’s a very interesting read.
The general public is never consulted. Just the other day some “expert” announced that “American are different” when it comes to Health Care and “don’t want the government involved.”
There is of course no basis for such a statement.
… and cleaner cars and denser communities and less pesticides in the food and better public schools …
Digby -
A lot of use friends and family members who aren’t super politcally attentive as bellweathers. I know you do, and so do I.
One of the most common questions people have is to really wonder why anyone would hate Americans enough to want to attack us and kill us. What they know about America is what they do in their own lives – work, raise their kids, shop, not hurt anyone, etc. So they can’t understand why anyone would find that threatening or why it would provoke hatred.
And if it’s explained what we are actually doing in the world, the countries we are occupying and bombing and interfering in and controlling – and how they would react if their country were occupied and bombed by one country that is the most militarized and powerful in the world — it’s as though that is new information to them. Those things are really done without most people thinking about it very much.
So “American exceptionalism” — in its most dangerous form — is really based on a complete lack of information and knowledge. It comes from the discrepancy between how Americans think about what we do/are and what, in reality, we do/are. I think that discrepency can be bridged as long as it doesn’t come from a place of anti-exceptionalism (i.e, that America itself is the embodiment of all Evil and everyone else in the world its sanctified victims).
Glenn. Impressed with your work, as well as your insights into the workings of this horrible presidency. Had Gore and the Dems shown some spine back in 2000, I do think the world would look a lot different. I, too, was uneasy when I first heard Bush use the term evil doers. It reminded me of listening to one of those old-time revival misnisters my mother would take me to hear when I was a boy. When this country is lied into a war to the strains of Onward Christian Soldiers, you just know it is going to turn out badly. But my question is, who among the Dems running for president, has the personality, the experience, and the political juice to offer the world an apology for our behaviour, and a promise to do better? So far, I’m really not too thrilled with any of them.
The old “some people say” gambit. How does one push back against it, other than demanding support for the assertion?
Glenn,
Addington’s name has been in the press this week in connection with the latest Cheney v. Constitution story. Do you have any insight on his role at the WH, how he operates, what he believes, etc?
thanks!
thereisnorule6 @ 49
Good question. The only Brit I know is quite thoughtful and DETESTS Blair. Maybe we’re deceived by the seeming intellect implied by his accent.
OK, here’s a question: Digby, when’s your book coming out???
Glenn, I’ve been reading the book. It arrived just this week, and it’s terribly clear and well written.
How is the process of getting establishment media reviews going this time around?
as long as the corrupt etc. press remains corporate, they won’t change, and the news cycle will stay the same. sure, lovely article in the WaPo today, but Paris Hilton’s on Larry King (or some such other nonsense) and we all KNOW which story will dominate corporate media. the end result is that the truth is being spoken, but without repetition and increased volume, who the f*** cares?
wrt 26 — I think that’s an excellent question. Dick Cheney — planet or asteroid?
Glenn,
Do you have a mindset reading stories to look at things critically, or in a particular way? I am curious as to how you digest the news looking for disinformation, and nuggests of truth in the midst of it. How do you process the media?
jane hamsher @ 60
black hole
and I’ve been reading Digby since she was posting at Atrios’ site
As a side note, I just want to say how happy I am to be liberated from the obligation to construct my sentences about Digby’s post while vigilantly avoiding pronouns (”Digby’s post today, in which Digby argues, that X, is notable for the evidence Digby cites”).
Glenn at 63 — You and me, both. :)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 65
Hi Christy. Love your articles this week. Joe
Paul – I really disagree with those who claim that Americans are not susceptible to reasoned argument, that emotional appeals outweight rational discourse.
I agree that rational discourse is still, but with the Russertesque he said/she said of modern political journalism, it’s difficult to make a rational argument.
Just the way the MSM have adopted the Iraq=al Qaeda thing is an example of how difficult it is to have a fact-based political debate in this country.
It’s the rational side that has to catapult the filter, to coin a phrase. I think that’s what Gore is doing.
Pach – As you probably know, no mainstream newspaper or magazine reviewed How Would a Patriot Act, despite its being on the NYT list, etc.
We’ll see if it’s different this time around. There is definitely still an entrenched perception among newspapers and magazines that “bloggers” are intrinsically unserious.
But at this point, I actually think it’s more important to develop our own systems for disseminating information and ideas than it is trying to reform those older and more established ones.
So. Is it a ‘religious confrontation’?
glenn – i look forward to reading your book, and i hope we will have another chance to discuss it with you after it’s release.
you write:
but isn’t it worse than that? Joseph Margulies, in discussing the al-Marri ruling, makes a good argument that the path of trading our freedoms for safety make us both less free and less safe. his conclusion:
this seems right to me… giving up our freedoms doesn’t in the end make us safe. the Good vs Evil mindset that you show leads to authoritarianism is not only unamerican – it is stupid.
Any thoughts on the news about Gitmo possibly shutting down? I’m not sure I get the media take on this. I’d think Cheney would support closing Gitmo in favor of distributing the detainees to bases worldwide. Then it would be far more secretive and he could start snatching bad americans off the streets with impugnity (if he’s not already).
Glenn the book is sensational. I really love and appreciate your work.
Glenn Greenwald @ 33
Let me refine my question. Granted the American people have soured on Bush. But that doesn’t ensure a Democratic victory in 2008, nor would such a victory ensure that we would be done with a Manichean foreign policy that continues to do bin Laden’s work for him–particularly with the degree to which the media has internalized rightwing values. This is where I see the most difficult struggle ahead of us. We do not have the luxury of people “eventually” getting things rights. We have a finite time period before things are dramatically worse. And this, I believe, requires an intensity of political confrontation that inherently brings out Manichean tendencies that all of us have to struggle against.
I know plenty of other people will be asking questions here who don’t normally comment on your blog, and I don’t want to hog bandwidth here. But I’d appreciate it if you gave this some thought, as I think that a post on it at some point could have a very beneficial effect for the left blogosphere as a whole.
Glenn Greenwald @ 63
Dammit that was a pain in the ass, wasn’t it?
Thanks so much Glenn for appearing with us today. And to Digby – Brava!
Glenn, if you were to pick a weakness in their media strategy, their attitudes towards oversight, or their contempt for the Constitution, where would you suggest that a suddenly steeled Democratic Congress (if such a thing could happen) begin? Where first do they stick the pry bar?
Jane Hamsher @ 73
Yes, it was.
It was so liberating to juxtapose Digby with. . . Shakira.
dave @ 57
Ahem.
Twiddling thumbs here, not saying anything….
Glenn,
I’m thrilled to have finally released all people who knew me personally from gender pronoun purgatory.
But I still maintain that it was good for all of you to have to stop and think about such a basic aspect of sentence construction. It’s like literary spinach — builds writing muscle. ;)
Glenn Greenwald @ 67
YES!
Jane @ 73 –I’ll bet it wasn’t much fun for Digby, either, despite the invaluable insights into genderless commentary.
The premise of America is and always has been that imposing limitations on government power is necessary to secure liberty and avoid tyranny even if it means accepting an increased risk of death as a result. That is the foundational American value.
This reminds me of the Jefferson quotes:
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
“A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both and deserve neither.”
Seems to me that far too many people are willing to make that trade.
How do we get back to where Jefferson wanted us to be?
Selise -
I agree. I wrote some about that in the book:
On top of that, our attempt to dominate the Middle East is imperial at its core. There is just no denying that. And imperial overstretch makes a nation far less safe, as does acting in a way to make the world form a confederacy against us. We’re doing all of that.
Jane Hamsher @ 76
You don’t look good in coy…
Glenn, do you think that the WaPo article will stir enough concern and conversation that Dennis Kucinich’s impeachment resolution will gain ground?
Ooo! Jane twiddling thumbs and not saying anything speaks *volumes*! :)
Glenn Greenwald @ 67
I get particularly worked up about the ghettoization of blog writings by the Em Ess Em, but then I remember that their resistance and refusal to acknowledge the zeitgeist is just further fuel for our fire.
It reminds me of what my grandmother used to say, “The hotter it gets, the harder it rains.”
Glenn Greenwald @ 67
With that in mind, if you haven’t boughth Glenn’s book yet, please consider doing so now — we’re trying to push sales numbers up and get it on the best seller list. It’s a drop in the “support your local blogger” bucket.
Digby is going to be the resident liberal on The View, perhaps?
Question for Gleen:
Have you, by any chance, had the opportunity to read Lou Dubose & Jake Bernstein’s book, ‘Vice: Dick Cheney & the Hijacking of the American Presidency.’
(I wouldn’t mind seeing them here if they’re willing to stop by & discuss their insights into Mr. Cheney……./HEAVY HINTING)*
If God really told President Bush to strike at Al Queida and Saddam then why aren’t we winning? Elijah in the bible challenged the 450 prophets of Baal to a contest and when their God failed to light the sacrfical fire but Elijah’s God did then the people killed the false prophets. Bush as a fundementalist christian should know that by claiming to speak for God when he was obviously not speaking for him then if we were a christian nation well.
Digby @ 77
Had me fooled, I thought you were an unusual him.
Is there anything worth saying regarding the ground-level racism that’s been one of the foundation-stones of the US’ post-9/11 activity, and in the specific case of “they’re all al-quaeda”?
selise @ 69
I think that’s a good point. The “dichotomy” between liberty and security is a false one. I would define my security by the range of things I can do without fear. In other words, the point of security is to increase freedom, specifically by removing negative impediments to it. If we have less liberty then our efforts at security have failed.
Glenn Greenwald @ 52
A lot of use friends and family members who aren’t super politcally attentive as bellweathers. I know you do, and so do I.
One of the most common questions people have is to really wonder why anyone would hate Americans enough to want to attack us and kill us. What they know about America is what they do in their own lives – work, raise their kids, shop, not hurt anyone, etc. So they can’t understand why anyone would find that threatening or why it would provoke hatred.
And if it’s explained what we are actually doing in the world, the countries we are occupying and bombing and interfering in and controlling – and how they would react if their country were occupied and bombed by one country that is the most militarized and powerful in the world — it’s as though that is new information to them. Those things are really done without most people thinking about it very much.
So “American exceptionalism” — in its most dangerous form — is really based on a complete lack of information and knowledge. It comes from the discrepancy between how Americans think about what we do/are and what, in reality, we do/are. I think that discrepency can be bridged as long as it doesn’t come from a place of anti-exceptionalism (i.e, that America itself is the embodiment of all Evil and everyone else in the world its sanctified victims).
I think a lot of that can be directly attributed to many Americans’ failure to travel abroad! I’ve heard that many Americans have never ventured outside of their own State! I think travel is one of life’s best learning opportunities available!
Glenn — are you reconciled to the prospect that we simply have to wait out the Bush/Cheney regime until 2009 and hope for the best from whoever follows — or do you see a plausible scenario in which we can hold them accountable before then and have some type of public cathartic event — a public rejection of their world view?
Glenn Greenwald @ 43
But more substantively, I realized when writing about the NSA scandal that it doesn’t matter how compelling your arguments are or how much evidence you amass. If a corrupt, stupid, manipulated and vapid press continues to be the guardians of our political discourse, few things matter. Finding a way to change that – shaming them into changing and/or creating alternatives to communicate ideas — is a pre-requisite for everything else.
Getting a progressive super-majority into the houses in 08 is another important requisite for passing meaningful legislation and, hopefully, obtaining media fairness.
Thanks for all your work Glenn!
Digby @ 77
Somehow, it seemed to be common knowledge at Eschaton. I’d heard about it some time ago, anyway, and it’s not like I’m part of the “Eschaton Elite”…
Paul -
I do see this point, and it’s a vital one. I wrote about it some earlier this week.
One of the most revealing aspects of our “war on terror” — and Digby referred to this in her initial post — is how identical the rhetoric of bin Laden and Bush/Cheney is, how similar the Good/Evil mentality has become. As you know, Richard Hofstadter wrote long ago about the dangers of “Emulating the Enemy.”
That is, as you point out, a danger in domestic politics as well, as we attempt to figure out how to uproot the right-wing poison that has infected the country and prevent it from infecting the rest of our political system. Avoiding that same mindset, ensuring that we stay rooted in reason, while developing effective and aggressive strategies, is the most difficult challenge.
Glenn Greenwald @ 67
Glenn, your point about using the ‘net and blogging to disseminate information is important, IMHO.
The HHS hosted a five week “blog” titled Pandemic Flu Leadership blog. Michael Leavitt and a US Public Health Service official represented the HHS, along with an Assistant Undersecretary for Public Affairs. The other panelists included DemFromCT (emptywheel’s blogging compatriot at The Next Hurrah), and a smattering of healthcare and community organization leaders. Without exception, the HHS posts were ambiguous canned marketing messages, which did nothing to further the discussion around pandemic planning. No one from the HHS ever responded to any commenters’ questions, although Dem did his best to provide support for the HHS and commenters alike. Most of the commenters were well-informed members of the public and pandemic preparedness grassroots leaders.
At the completion of the five week blog, no measurable progress had been made, and even more importantly, HHS has not yet articulated a mission, vision or objective for pandemic flu planning and preparation.
In other words, it’s Katrina all over again. Michael Brown, Michael Leavitt – they are virtually interchangeable.
What’s different is that they are already using the “blog” as a political tool to proclaim community involvement and responsiveness.
Where bloggers have a real advantage is that they communicate faster, broader and reach more deeply than MSM. Without the many political, corporate and economic filters, they can get raw and more unfiltered messages out. The blogging community fact checks and places accuracy filters on the message, which then becomes refined.
This is what is so frightening to the MSM – loss of control of the message, loss of the market reach of the message, and the application of filtering and accuracy fact checking without backroom censoring.
Being more of a consumer of your blogging and less aware of general organization/thinking in the progressive blogging space… Has there been any consideration about publishing a daily or weekly print “paper” publishing more thorough news/analysis, etc.
CTuttle,
Too bad Little Boots never availed himself of the opportunity.
About the press- its oh so much worse than manipulated and vapid- which of course it often is- it’s also about pure corruption.
I was absolutely stunned to see this segment from Bill Moyer’s Journal on Friday night.
This interview is about a piece in July’s Harper’s by Ken Silverstein about how he created a fake front group for the country of Turkmenistan to see if he could get a Washington lobbying firm to improve the image of that oppressive dictatorship. They took the bait and he was courted aggressively by two of the biggest firms in the area. The relevance here is that in addition to touting their former legislators and captains of industry on staff – a great deal of the expertise they cited was the number of former journalists they employed.
The revolving door isn’t just for politicians anymore. Check it out please. Its just shocking.
Scarecrow @ 94
And that’s a question for Digby, too.
WRT mainstream outlets not reviewing this book, I don’t see how they will be able to ignore it. Having read the manuscript, I can assure that Glenn masterfully lays down the gauntlet in excruciating and sickening detail re: the Pravda-esque role most of the establishment media played in promoting pro-war fever in the lead up to Iraq.
The Establishment press is not likely to send him love notes, but I doubt ignoring him will be an option. And for good or for ill, having a major publlisher, in addition to his now being at Salon, just makes a difference.
I’m an innocent Canadian bystander. What are y’all going to do if the Right pulls out another election and keeps the White House in ‘08? It seems to me that everybody’s options are dwindling quickly.
If Osama made the whole Middle East “evil” in Bush’s mind, then why didn’t McVeigh make us evil in his mind, I wonder?
I truly look forward to reading your new book, Glenn, and I am glad you have the MSM complicity in the crosshairs!
My question is…could class action litigation against the Media, for its role as an arm of the Bush propaganda machine, somehow restrain/reduce the adverse impact such manipulation has on public debate of the crimes of the Bush Administration?
Glenn said:
I couldn’t agree more. We are already operating in the cutting edge new media and our future lies here. Glenn went to Number 1 on Amazon with his last book because of the following he’d built online. With the dead tree newspaper business rapidly losing ground, this is where the action is.
The mainstream publishing biz won’t go away, but it’s not the only way to do business anymore.
Many americans have never ventured more than 100mi radius of their hometown let alone their state!
So how do we ever dig our way out – Especially of the media problems, let alone not having years and decades of the same politics?
i think you also nailed the case for why **public** works better than **private** and why regulation does too in terms of accountability and oversight … see below with corporate inserted appropriately
transparent **public** agencies are critical for detecting errors, uncovering corruption, and ensuring accountability, while **corporate** leaders who operate in the dark, wielding vast powers with little oversight, virtually always conceal their mistakes and act to maximize their own interests rather than the country’s.
thereisnorule6 @ 86
That’s kinda genius.
Moira Whitehouse @ 103
Move to Canada!!! ;-)
Glenn, was glad to order your book from Amazon as requested (I think the last book I bought from there was HWAPA), took the opportunity to order Marcy’s book too, and wish there was a Digby book to make it a hat trick.
I also look forward to writing to the WaPost and other periodicals, asking them to review it (and give the review to someone unfrivolous) in a timely fashion, would appreciate any hints on how to do that.
It makes a sad sense that your legal focus has had to shift to media criticism–at some level, it becomes the bottleneck through which we get our very watered-down sense of reality. And it’s frightening that our leaders believe it to be hostile to them–my god, how complacent would they have them be?
Reminds me of when Bush was at the City Club of Cleveland. A woman quoted from Kevin Phillips’ book and asked if Bush really believed that the rise of terrorism was a sign of the apocolypse, and if not, why not. Bush blew off the question. In your opinion, does Bush and his administration hold such a radical belief, or is he simply controlled by religious interests who may or may not have such radical beliefs?
Steve Gilliard (RIP) once referred to Digby as she. That is how some people “knew”.
sherifffruitfly @ 91
Appeals to an authoratrian personalty rally the ingroup by disparging the outgroup. Fear does make us all revert to the lizard brain responses of the not so evolved. Whats surprising is how despite the Main Stream Media is how many of us have fought the cloud of fear to think and question again.
Glenn Greenwald @ 52
Glenn, I agree that exceptionalism is problem. And it really is a problem because, for much of the world, it seems reasonable to hold the citizens of a democracy accountable for the things done in their name. Bin Laden referenced this in his letter to America.
But most of the political discussion, journalism, and punditry in America seems to take place in an ahistorical vacuum. There is so little discussion of America’s own complicated, morally ambiguous and often ethically compromised history -either domesticated or foreign. This seems unusual given other countries’ willingness to cast an ungaundiced eye at their own history of realpolitik.
From outside, most public discourse – from evolution to abortion to global warming to the legal drinking age to drug policy to gay marriage to presidential elections to international politics – seems weirdly adolescent and, yes, manichean…as though the collective American body politic has an aversion ambiguity and nuance.
What do you think is at the root of this need for exceptionalism and simplicity?
Glenn Greenwald @ 67
I heard Arundati Roy say that precise thing about two years or so ago. I agreed with her about it at that time, and I agree with you about it now, Glenn, still.
Regarding the American exceptionalism theory, it is always worth remembering that at the beginning of the last century, Britain strode the world like a colossus, they thought they were invulnerable – “the sun never sets on the British empire” and nobody can defeat the British Navy! Fifty years later, following two world wars plus revolutions and wars in Africa, India and China, the British empire had vanished and the British people were eating spam and rationing fuel.
I just want to say that I’m in awe of great minds gathered here and thank you all
Re: Digby
Back at the Bartcop and Atrios fora, I thought Digby was a “he”, but when Hullabaloo debuted — when was that, 2002? — the gender issue faded away, and I hardly ever thought about it any more, until much later, when sussing out the gender of this incredible thinker and writer seemed like the Most Important Thing in the Whole Wide World to some commentors. By then, however, I already knew the truth but said nothing.
I hadn’t, however, seen the lady until the video of her speech was posted, and as I was hooting and hollering about how great it was, I saw her give a “look” to the audience and I stopped cold and said, “That’s exactly how I always imagined Digby would look!”
She should be on the teevee, on the radio, and in print constantly.
Glenn, too.
Ou. Both of you together, hashing out the the issues of the day.
I’d watch. Wrapt.
Digby -
The mainstream publishing biz won’t go away, but it’s not the only way to do business anymore.
Indeed. One sees all of those establishment magazines and newspaper pundits trying to become bloggers, but very few bloggers trying to get jobs with Time Warner or the Washington Post.
And I think that the dynamic has really shifted — they care a lot more about what bloggers write about them than the other way around.
In terms of sheer numbers and influence, blogs still don’t compare. That should be clear. But these things take time to build and the trendlines seem clear. I just think that energies are more constructively devoted to building new alternatives than trying to force our way into those arenas or change them.
What is it going to take to drive Bush from office? It really is difficult for me to see how letting his administration fester in place while Gaza blows up and Iraq disintegrates is beneficial to the world. It is a grave disappointment to me that the Dems in Congress seem to have just thrown up their hands and surrendered to the notion that we have to deal with BushCo until 2009, like it or lump it.
Digby, what do you think? Glenn?
FOC@115–I don’t know that there’s a need for exceptionalism and simplicity among the public, although there are certainly some who prefer it, but rather that exceptionalism and simplicity is simply part of the plot presented by the corporate media. it’s hard work creatin’ reality!
glenn @121: there’s also this re blogging vs dead trees — success online will be determined by the value offered and the spread and the passion of those who write and those who read … and the barrier to entry means many more can try than can buy a printing press … which is all to the good
Moira Whitehouse @ 104
Hopefully they don’t seal the borders too tightly with these moronic efforts to limit Illegal immigration.
Glenn,
Thanks for doggedly pursuing these issues and connecting the dots. I recently came across a blog that posted a declassified CIA document wherein George HW Bush was passing information about an assassination attempt on Kennedy in Houston in 1963, but said that Bush would be in Dallas during Kennedy’s fatal visit.
http://adoredbyhordes.blogspot…..-them.html
My question: can anyone really piece together a story that links Brown Brothers Harriman, Skull & Bones, the first Bush machine (and CIA), and the current BushCo.? I mean, obviously these are linked intergenerationally, but should smart people believe that there is an intergenerational conspiracy?
annagranfors @ 79
It was very hard to get off the phone with Digby, talking about makeup and peep toe shoes and go on the blog where everyone just assumed she looked like Walter Cronkite.
It’s been a pretty hard bite-yer-tongue couple o’years.
trex @122: xlent question
unrelenting pressure on our elected officials would be one answer … all of them
Glenn Greenwald @ 120
I do fault the Dem leadership for not more effectively using the MSM.
Indeed. One sees all of those establishment magazines and newspaper pundits trying to become bloggers, but very few bloggers trying to get jobs with Time Warner or the Washington Post.
at least of the substantive and (truly) progressive variety. Ana Marie Cox is cute and snarky at Time and Time.com. I think WaPo is still looking for a “conservative blogger” to provide balance to Fred Hiatt and David Broder.
Does Glenn or Digby (or anyone?) think it feasible to impeach anyone at this late date? It would be great, and completely justified, but wouldn’t it just distract from the *yooge* amount of fixing that needs to be adressed. Thoughts?
Freaked-out Canadian -
Virtually country has a complicated history, not only the U.S. Every country has had corrupt and bad-acting leaders. And every country has been capable of good acts in the world and good influence on it, including the U.S.
I think depicting the U.S. as a singular or pure evil is a strain of the Manicheanism that drives the Bush movement, and one has to be careful to avoid it.
I think we’re tribal creatures, with a propensity, maybe an instinct, to see the world as “Us versus Them.” We all see the world more easily from our own perspective than from others’. Like all instincts, though, it needs to be tempered and balanced by our ability to reason, to act with restraint, etc. And when it runs rampant and with no checks, that is when real damage occurs.
JIm @ 127
Have they considered Fred Hiatt and David Broder?
TRex @ 86
Something to bear in mind is the rapid adoption cycle for Internet media and content. Over a billion Internet users at present. For increasing numbers of people, blogs and online dailies are the preferred sources of information. These days a blogger is as likely to write a bestselling political book as anyone.
Really, watching Joe Klein blog is like watching your Dad’s annoying coworker get a couple beers in him and demand a go on your skateboard, “Gimme that, kid! I can ‘hang ten’ just as good as you little punks!”
And then he wipes out and slides down twenty feet of sidewalk on his face. It’s all fun and games until somebody breaks a forearm.
And then it’s hilarious.
Glenn Greenwald @ 120
Indeed. One sees all of those establishment magazines and newspaper pundits trying to become bloggers, but very few bloggers trying to get jobs with Time Warner or the Washington Post.
And I think that the dynamic has really shifted — they care a lot more about what bloggers write about them than the other way around.
In terms of sheer numbers and influence, blogs still don’t compare. That should be clear. But these things take time to build and the trendlines seem clear. I just think that energies are more constructively devoted to building new alternatives than trying to force our way into those arenas or change them.
There is certainly a Paradigm shift occurring as we type!!! 8-)
Glenn Greenwald @ 121
And I think that the dynamic has really shifted — they care a lot more about what bloggers write about them than the other way around…..
As a means of where I get my information, news, etc., as long as ‘the internets’ are up & running, I will not depend upon the likes of Time-Warner, NYT, Wash Post, etc. ever again.
I’m a big fan Glenn, thanks for coming on!
If congressional investigations are continuing following Bush’s presidency (whether he is impeached or not), how would he be treated legally?
If, for example, his complicity in the our illegal and continuing policies of torture are exposed, could he/would he be charged and convicted of a crime for which he could go to prison?
I actually think she’s one of the most instructive cases. Her persona and conduct and even her ideology transformed almost completely upon joining Time. It was as though she transformed into a different person.
She’s trying, I think with some success, to find a more independent voice now. But it was really rather jarring to see how someone who gets sucked into that culture, that environment, can be shaped by it so quickly.
Jane @ 126–and Digby–I know Digby’s time is taken up by slightly more important things, but, hell, I’d love to see the occasional post on makeup and peeptoes! if Avedon can do Bra of the Week… :)
And then he wipes out and slides down twenty feet of sidewalk on his face. It’s all fun and games until somebody breaks a forearm.
and then he says he fell because you were laughing at him
JIm @ 142
Well, we were.
Glenn, Digby, Jane – thanks so much for all you do, and keep on keepin’ on. It’s all we got.
Glenn:
Why did you choose the word Tragic in the title?
I actually think she’s one of the most instructive cases. Her persona and conduct and even her ideology transformed almost completely upon joining Time. It was as though she transformed into a different person.
Raw ambition, IMHO. She was just so glad to have been offered a seat at the Grown Ups’ Table.
It was kind of odd that someone who made her mark as a blogger seemed to think that her former work would somehow vanish into the ether.
*huge eyeroll*
She wasn’t exactly a pillar of “integritude” before she went in.
Afternoon pups and Mr. Greenwald. I had a massive fight with the front office the other day about the war in Iraq where they agreed with the pre-emptive strike saying “someday it was possible they would attack us.”
I said by that logic I fear that someday you could stand up and punch me in the nose, so I am justified in getting a flamethrower and torching this office to the ground with everyone in it.
I defied them to assure me, as we are a nation of laws, that I would be found innocent.
The pre-emptive doctrine seems to lose its luster on the micro-level, doesn’t it?
I am not convinced at all — for a lot of reasons — that focusing on impeachment at this late date is constructive, principally because it will not happen — have you happened to look at the Congressional Democrats recently? — and it will suck up all the energy for everything else.
But I do think it’s imperative that Bush and company be held meaningfully accountable for the felonies they have committed in office. We have adopted this idea that “illegal behavior by government officials” is not real criminality, the type that warrants prison. We have to stomp that premise out, because until we do, rampant lawbreaking by government officials is guaranteed. Why would they be incentivized not to break the law if they know there are no consequences?
N=1 @ 141
He went with “Tragic Legacy” because his publisher wouldn’t go with “Fucked Up Mess.”
Hi Glenn — thanks for all the great work. The MSM definitely needs to pay more attention to your analyses, and less to the blast fax talking points from the Bush/Cheney Bunker.
On Friday, I had some random thoughts on Good and Evil and Cheney and Bush — to me, Bush/Cheney have an “Us vs Them” world view, and use the “Good vs Evil” construct to con the rubes. Of course, what makes it effective and terrifiying is this:
There is no moral center to George W Bush, other than his narcissistic personal identity, and his belief that he is the agent of God.
Since Bush sees himself as both moral and good and the instrument of God and the state, every whim and word that passes from him is inerrant — even if it contradicts logic, the law, the Constitution, foreign policy, and Bush’s own policies.
While I’m general agreement with Glenn, I’m uncomfortable with the use of “Good and Evil” in the context of describing the motivations of the Bush/Rove/Cheney krew of gangsters.
Dick Cheney is an amoral sociopath, that makes Jabba the Hut look like a knight is shining armor. Dick Cheney believes in amassing power to himself, and everything in the world is a mere tool in service of that goal.
I consider George W Bush to be an immoral sociopath, who believes his world view (and himself) to be Good, and anything that does not serve his world view (and his self-anointed glorious self) to be Evil.
This is the point at which I am discomfited — “Good and Evil” as concept implies a moral framework; Dick Cheney is the essence of amorality, while George W Bush sees himself as the center of the moral universe, and anything that does not serve his interests is evil.
Bush has portrayed the GWOT as a Good vs Evil struggle, which is the root of the military and diplomatic disaster. On the other hand, Bush is blinded by a personal sense of righteousness that is nothing more than sociopathic narcissism — GWB operates without the faintest trace of anything that is considered moral by an average person.
For example: Bush is fighting the imaginary GWOT against Islamic radicalism — since Bush sees himself as the essence of Good, this allows him to ship arms to Sunni Islamic radicals to fight Shia Islamic radicals (and vice versa) depending on whatever he feels most threatened by at the moment. There is no moral center to George W Bush, other than his narcissistic personal identity, and his belief that he is the agent of God.
Another example: Bush hates Democracy, because it gives his opponents (evil incarnate, by his definition) the opportunity to undermine his glorious authority. Hence, using USAs and caging lists and voter purges and voter intimidation and corrupt right wing judges to undermine democracy is a good thing to GWB — for George W Bush, the only scandal in the US Attorney firings is that his (evil) enemies are questioning his authority.
On the other hand, democracy is a useful tool for George W Bush, which makes it “Good.” Talking about Democracy allows GWB to con the rubes and get his way, which is twofer “Good” in the Bush worldview; second, “Democracy” and the rule of law gives GWB and his ruling class gangster cronies the opportunity to seize power, and use the government to advance his own interests. For George W Bush, democracy is both good and evil — although mostly, it’s just another tool in his gangster tool kit.
At any rate, these are some of the issues I have with using “Good and Evil” in the same breath as George W Bush — Bush is an evil man, precisely because he sees himself as the center of Good in the universe.
Glenn Greenwald @ 137
Absolutely agree. Ana Marie was kind of dreadful at the start trying to become a regular insider. Once she started getting back into snark mode, liveblogging the Presidential debates for example, she has been much better and more honest.
Her commentary on why Giuliani was popular with GOP voters was pretty amusing.
Digby -
The mainstream publishing biz won’t go away, but it’s not the only way to do business anymore.
What about promotional appearances on TV, radio, and in interviews? It seems those sort of things will still matter, more so than getting reviewed in the so-called “mainstream press” (though, of course, the reviews still help drive the bookings, to a certain extent).
Glenn, will your current publisher be sponsoring some sort of book tour? How does your experience with this publisher’s promotional efforts compare with the smaller publisher of “How Would a Patriot Act”?
Digby and Glenn–
Welcome! I’m late to the party, but I am SO glad to see you both here at the Lake!!! I hope this is the first of many visits!
Now to read from top to bottom!!!
Bob in HI
jim@145 — i’m no fan of ana marie cox (former a$$phuqing blogger) but there is still the matter of earning a living … they pay well at TW/in time, blogs will be monetized but there’s a pay-the-bills gap at the moment
there’s also a class issue: just as only monied kids can take the free internships and low paying entry level jobs in the msm, so just people who have the time/leisure/resources to blog after work or as their only work have access to this medium now … which is way more open than having to kill trees, but has its barriers to entry still
GG @ 147–
“rampant lawbreaking by government officials is guaranteed. Why would they be incentivized not to break the law if they know there are no consequences?”
which assumes a baseline morality among government officials of approximately zero, if not into negative integers. which is more or less accurate.
Glenn Greenwald @ 52
The odd thing, Glenn, is that there is, I think, a deep affection and affinity for America in all parts of the globe, even among her putative enemies. It may be in part, because of American pop culture, or because of an acknowledement of America’s definign historical role in the last century.
For instance, throughout his professional life, my father had a single portrait hanging on his office wall. Not a Canadian, but the American president he had looked to as the harbinger of a new era.
I think the initial response of the world (including Iran and, as is clear in Moore’s new doc, Cuba too) to 9/11 showed how much potential goodwill there is.
But we are all waiting for an America with whom we can have a reasoned argument, rational negotiations, trustworthy treaties – and an America that will treat our citizens with dignity, sovereignty and respect.
One of the reasons that so many of us Canadians have ended up as subscribers to you, FDL, C&L, Atrios and, yes, the Great Orange Satan, is that we take considerable comfort in the depth of your optimism, insight, courage and thoughtful patriotism.
N=1
Unlike the text, which the author controls entirely (with input from the editor), the book’s title is the by-product of debate and compromise, and the author has no ultimate control over it. It’s driven by all sorts of considerations, including marketing, etc.
Having said that, I do think the Bush legacy is “tragic.” The 9/11 attacks, as heinous as they were, presented a very rare opportunity — to unite the country based upon commonly held political principles and a belief in our defining political values, and to unite large parts of the world together in common cause.
Great things could have arisen from that. Instead, not only did they squander it all, but exploited it endlessly to long-lasting, if not irreversible, damage to our country and its moral credibility in the world.
I think all of that fits the classic definition of “tragic.” I don’t think Bush himself is a “tragic figure.” But the legacy he has left our country is tragic.
Glenn Greenwald @ 98
the house’s vote last week on h.con.r.21 is just one indication, imo, that our political system has already to some degree become infected.
i think our actions and advocacy need to take this into account.
…
background: h.con.r.21 had 103 co-sponsors. virtually the entire house voted for it, with only 2 votes against. it begins:
it’s not just that the charge a false one (according to juan cole) – it’s that it lends legitimacy to the bush/cheney propaganda of Iran = Evil contributing to a climate of fear and anger.
and this wasn’t done by the republicans – it was done by a D controlled house (speaker pelosi vote for it).
Cuz George is a closet religous fanatic?! His has the zeal for it but hid it moderation for awhile but it does shine through.
Cheney isn’t I think, he just has an ego that tells him he knows more than anyone else. How do you think Cheney will enjoy the spotlight this week? I think memebers of Congress are goiing to have some lights go on for more than a few of them.
I think Bush may have been a big pain-in-the-ass without 9/11 but that event gave the neocons their opening for their crusade.
dave @ 149 What about promotional appearances on TV, radio, and in interviews? It seems those sort of things will still matter, more so than getting reviewed in the so-called “mainstream press”
Glenn was just on Background Briefing today. It’s a local Pacifica Radio program in Los Angeles. Small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. But the upside is that it reputedly has quite an influential audience.
Our work is to take these beachheads we’ve got and to expand them.
Bill Moyers five times a week? Why not? Charlie Rose does it.
Glenn,
I think you’re a very positive influence over there at Salon.com. All the writing seems to have improved. I read your blog and Salon every day!!
Keep up the good work – and I’m planning to buy your book this week!
I agree entirely. Some people like to focus on America’s past crimes, of which there are many. But America, particularly in the 20th Century, has been a symbol of liberty and hope and inspiration in many places around the world. That’s just fact. And the extent to which, over the last six years, that has been eroded, whittled away, reversed is – I think – rather unique.
America is the most powerful country on the planet still and the face it presents to the world and its conduct has a great effect on the world. Anyone who spends any amount of time outisde of the U.S. is all too aware of how much anti-American sentiment has increased and hardened.
And what’s alarming to think about is that 8 years is a long time. There are hundreds of millions of people in the world who only know “America” by what we have done under the Bush presidency.
Oilfieldguy @ 148,
Does it do any good at all?
I ask because I try the same kind of things, and have very little success.
It may make them stop and think for a minute, but then they get back on the sauce (Rush, etc.).
Pardon me if this has been said before — I haven’t read all the comments. But Glenn … you need to be syndicated! Is there a chance of that? I wish more people could read you than those who read Salon.
Glenn & Digby, you are two of the brightest jewels of the blogosphere. The two of you along with Joe Wilson and Matt Stoller and the FDL gang, I feel like I’m at a gathering of rock stars.
Sitting here wondering how to add to this illustrious conversation with an intelligent question, I’ve realized that I have nothing to ask. No doubt the book raises many provocative issues, but from what I’ve seen of the summaries and the excerpt and the discussion so far, I’m quite convinced of the argument and see nothing to challenge about it. Those of us who have been reading the blogs, among them Glenn’s and Digby’s and FDL, have seen the “good vs. evil” world view for the tripe that it is for a long time. We’ve seen how it has been used to justify astonishing atrocities we never would have thought possible not so long ago, and we’ve observed how it has the entire political and media class, not to mention the twenty-three percenters, utterly in thrall. And we know all about the cowardice of Democrats who are unwilling to confront it.
The real question that remains is — what can we do to stop it? The rise of the blogs has been exciting, finally adding an alternative and reasonable voice in the midst of all this insanity, and yet it seems so frustrating that these insights still haven’t penetrated the broader national dialogue. It’s as if the bloggers and their readers are still a kind of secret society, with access to understanding that, for some reason, is almost completely concealed to most of the public.
Thank our lucky stars for Glenn Greenwald, but really, why aren’t the pundits and the talking heads and politicians tackling this issue all the time? How can we ever get it through their thick heads?
Glenn… I’m joining late… hope you are still here.
Last week I heard a very disturbing interview on CNN… the authors of the Left Behind series of apocolyptic shrillery were stating as if fact that Iraq is Armageddon… citing OT books, etc, that seemed quite off base.
Moyers a couple of years ago had a piece on the rapture index, a website that is counting days till armag. happens…
He even implied that Bush was part of this group that believes this insanity… which makes sense given his extreme, irrational focus on invading the country.
How do you think these beliefs, if real, figure into Bush/Cheney’s actions?
thx
Don’t worry. That’s going away. It’s all but a fait accompli at this point.
Glenn- You mention the lack of reviews in “MSM” outlets. Were you ever approached by CSPAN for BookTV? I notice this weekend Amity Shales is interviewing a fellow conservative, and Bernard Goldberg is hawking the one book he wrote under its third title.
Glenn Greenwald @ 149
Glenn—if he is to be convicted in a court of law there would need to be very clear evidence that not even our beltway elite could hide. This was the case during watergate, but we have yet to have this sort of watershed moment yet (although I’d bet that within the 5 million missing emails is a pretty good place to start).
If that is found while he is still president, how could we avoid the issue of impeachment while still arguing that the rule of law needs to be addressed for everyone?
We would need DRAMATICALLY stronger leadership from our congress to survive this sort of constitutional crisis, and allowing the democrats to continue to avoid the “I” word seems like letting them off the hook due to politics.
The sort of Democrats who step up to this challenge are the ones we progressives should continue to support, and the ones who waver should not be considered qualified to be our leaders any longer in my opinion.
Paul Rosenberg @ 150
Now THAT’S tragic.
C. C. in NC @ 164
Awesome idea! The public editor at the Chicago Tribune just said the other day that he still gets requests for Molly Ivins columns (sad, but true). The point is, if a jerk like Novak can be picked up by the WaPo, why can’t the blogosphere have some syndicated writers?
Glenn:
While I’m not convinced that the Congress as a whole can even contemplate the Horror of Impeaching a Sitting President or Vice President, after what so many of them remember of the last time they went down that road, I have a problem with the argument that focusing on impeachment will suck up the energy for everything else.
What else? After the First Hundred Hours gambit, the Congress has pretty much tied itself into knots, all but incapable of moving forward, backward, up or down on any issue. And when they do move (cf: capitulation on the Supplemental, the resurrection of the Immigration Bill) holy hell breaks loose. Maybe it would be better for them not to “do” anything, but instead to pay very close attention, focus as it were, on the high crimes and misdemeanors of the Bush regime, expose them to full public scrutiny, do it all in public.
One reason they are having so many problems right now is because the leadership is trying to make all these deals in the backrooms, and the public really isn’t informed or involved. That’s a deliberate choice of the leadership; they’d rather we don’t know. Except for the fact that they either can’t close the deal or if they do, it blows up in their face, this is a fine way of doing the People’s Business.
Why not hold impeachment hearings in public instead?
Just a thought.
Scarecrow asked:
I won’t speak for Glenn, but I’m sorry to say that I’m skeptical. This latest round of revelations about Cheney has some potential now that the Democrats are calling for hearings and planning some political theatre to dramatize it. The US Attorney scandal may yet bring some drama that could catapault this beyond the normal political power narrative.
But sadly, I don’t think there’s enough time to really get it done before Bush leaves office. We have yet to litigate even one executive privilege claim, and you know they are coming. Time is short.
My wish would be that the Democrats use this issue in the election, explicitly and passionately, so the vote could be the cathartic moment you are talking about. But they are afraid, and with some justification, that the Republicans are going to tie them up in knots with their own arguments once they are required to govern. (That is not to say they will be governing like Cheney, but that the GOP will not hesitate to accuse them of it — and much more effectively than they ever did.)
I would like this election to be a referendum on our civic values and have this thing out once and for all. The Republicans have been running their game for more than 40 years and until we find a way to hold them accountable to the extent they become gun shy, they will just keep doing it. They have amazing recuperative powers — don’t forget that it was only six years after the most ignominious fall of a president in history that they ushered in the Reagan revolution. They prove the adage that what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.
One of the things the blogosphere does well is, as Jane always says, serve as institutional memory. We will be here, pounding away, day after day, reminding people of every last heinous thing they’ve ever done. It’s not everything, but between the kind of real time analysis that people like Glenn are doing with his book and the massive amount that’s being written online, I think it could make a difference.
Glenn,
First of all, thanks for the amazing work you do.
I’m wondering, in regard to the unitary Dick Cheney, and now with all the Cheney coverage in the post, do you think the Democrats will pursue the matter vigorously and drive more coverage?
Put another way, is there *anything* that could be disclosed that would prompt serious consideration of impeachment or an independent prosecution, by the Democrats or the mainstream media? Or do you think we’re stuck with Cheney and Bush and have to live with that sad reality until 2008?
Update: oops, looks like this question was just addressed at 174 by Digby
Yes, and for that, we need a candidate willing to take on the real issues. Al Gore, you lurking here by any chance?
Glenn Greenwald @ 161
That indeed is a Tragic Legacy
How is the world ever to know that the 26% /- approval rate with the rest of us incapable of doing much of anything to change it for another year and a half?
Jane Hamsher @ 171
For a moment, my dyslexic self read that as “magic”. *g*
Glenn Greenwald @ 24
Exactly, neither Bush nor Cheney is a religious fanatic, although both use religious language to justify their war machine. They were chosen and funded by that faction of world capitalism — the oil and defense industries — whose profits depend on on-going wars. From their perspective, the Bush-Cheney administration has been a great success.
Does the Post’s expose of Bush-Cheney draconian totalitarianism mean only that a less bellicose faction of the capitalist class has now come to fear them as well?
cc in nm -
I devoted the largest chapter in the book to Iran, because I think a war with Iran is the greatest danger we face, and I think it’s more likely than not.
That a substantial part of the President’s base is driven to Middle East militarism by evangelical notions about Rapture and “Greater Israel” is clear (which makes their agenda converge with generic Cheney/Rumsfeld-like warmongerers and Israel-centric neoconservatives).
It’s one of the most under-discussed aspects of our political culture because people find the discussion so uncomfortable. And the extent to which Bush shares those views is really unknown.
Glenn:
It seems that the US has always looked for some country to be its enemy. It was Russia (the “Evil Empire”)during the long Cold War. What do you believe the difference is in the case of the Bush Administration?
Having degrees in Religious Studies, I find the phrase ‘Manichean foreign policy’ interesting because there doesn’t always appear to be a full understanding of what’s the essence of Manicheanism and manages to dismiss the obvious duality within ourselves of good/evil in which they believed as well. Michelle Goldberg was among the first to use or allude quite awhile back.
Digby said:
Like Ebola or pandemic flu.
Digby @ 12
I recommend reading Marcy’s excellent analysis of the Washington Post article about Dick Cheney in one of her Next Hurrah threads posted this afternoon: Cheney’s Method
This is too important a gathering of minds not to push back:
I don’t see how the regime can be held accountable on the scale needed without using the impeachment mechanism. And not using it effectively means that the single most important tool for maintaining checks/balances, accountability, and separation of powers was simply discarded — for all time. If it doesn’t apply now, when would it ever apply? And how could it ever again serve as a check on unlimited executive power?
Which of the national issues — and Congress is doing such a bang up job on them all, right? — that might suffer from a lack of oxygen is more important than this?
today’s resolution: email congresspeople demanding accountability daily
Scarecrow @ 183– Amen.
Justina @ 178
Bush might not be a total fanatic be comes as close as one can without crossing the line. His attitudes towards the world as a whole is one to use-it-up cuz the End Times are coming. His use of the word crusade, the weakening of the barrier between church and state, hell look at the US Air Force and the right-wing religious zealots that are gaining over there. Cheney is after power and he got it through controlling Bush.
That’s complicated and hard to address here, but I do think there is clearly a difference between the Soviet empire and the threat of Islamic terrorism. The Soviet Union really was a superpower with influence in large parts of the world, an oppressive ideology, and lots and lots of nuclear warheads aimed at our cities. The threat of Islamic terrorism is a minute fraction of that.
One can obviously debate all the issues surrounding the Cold War — the extent to which the U.S. overreacted, exploited fear of communism to justify militarism, increased government power and wars, etc. — but the overarching difference is that there is simply no comparison between the Soviet Union and stateless jihadists.
Completely OT, but for some reason this strikes me as odd.
DOD CONTRACTS june 2007.
DEFENSE LOGISTICS AGENCY
Minacorp Ltd., Gibraltar, is being awarded a maximum $367,298,266.00 fixed price with economic price adjustment contract for fuel. Using services are Air Force. Other locations of performance are Biskek, Kyrgyzstan. The original proposal was web solicited with 4 responses. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. Date of performance completion is May 30, 2009. Contracting activity is Defense Energy Support Center (DESC), Fort Belvoir, Va., (SP0600-07-D-1007).
[Mod Note; Let’s please stay on topic during Book Salon. Other conversations can continue on the previous thread. Thanks.]
Not trying to be naive about the possibility for direct conflict with Iran, but from a practical standpoint how is this even possible? The military is all but broken as it is and I have no doubt that the Iranian’s would respond by invading either Iraq or Afghanistan (or at least directly arm the Shia in Iraq) to drive us out.
I don’t see how the regime can be held accountable on the scale needed without using the impeachment mechanism.
(I know you weren’t askning me, but…) My two cents: I agree that the failure to impeach Bush has been a failure of our and their duty to the Constitution. I don’t think there’s been a clearer case in our history where it’s been merited, including Nixon, but we can’t even get the Blue Dogs, Liebercrats and St Hagel of the Shoehorns to use the power of the purse to rein in Bush, much less impeach him. The Dems, IMHO, figured out too late that they could and should push back.
Glenn – thanks for taking the time this afternoon, and I’m looking forward to reading your book. Question:
With the various neocon proponents continuing to publicly advocate the most dangerous of ideas (great post on Podhoretz this week, by the way), what do you think of the way the Right is being sold on Fred Thompson as a “real Conservative” while not bothering to question his fellowship with AEI and association with Bill Kristol’s magazine? Is this an insignificant connection?
(sorry for replicating my question from #25 above)
Scarecrow @ 182
Crap, they can’t even get a no-confidence vote out of cloture in the Senate so an impeachment trial is DOA and done strictly for the fact that the main stream media doesn’t tell the truth? Seems dicey
I have to take off, but I wanted to say thanks to Glenn and Digby. You both rock. We’re honored to number you among our friends.
After 9/11 I too was struck with the repeated use of the terms “good” and “evil” by the president, especially the apparent idea that “evil” is a thing that can be fought. During the summer of 03, I read several books on the nature of evil, including one by Susan Neiman, which she begins by pointing out that it was the disaster that hit Lisbon in 1755 that led to the end of the idea that natural disasters were evil. So, it was just 250 years ago that we finally began to see natural disasters as just that, not the emanation of the devil. It hasn’t sunk in on George Bush.
Margot @ 164
Yes, it does do immense good. Just adjust your definition of success. Can your tiny voice override 25 years of a million decibels of rightard radio and Faux News? Probably not.
You may be the only voice of reason they ever hear, and never give up on your fellow Americans.
Now TRex may offer a whole ‘nother opinion.
If nothing else, you sharpen your own arguments. Sort of a Greenwald/Digby Jazzercise class for your soul.
Bottom line, never shut-up and always be apologetic for their ignorance. Perhaps they shouldn’t get their news from phone-sex enthusiasts and Oxy-Morons, who recite blast faxes from the RNC, a mere propoganda arm.
Reading Marcy’s post, Cheney’s whole cabal has the distinct ring of “criminal conspiracy”.
Why not impeach now, and fight with the issue through the elections?
Scarecrow -
They can be criminally prosecuted for any crimes committed in office.
I don’t think many people argue it doesn’t apply or wouldn’t be just. I know I don’t argue that. But there have to be practical considerations given to the issues to which one devotes energy. If the blogosphere spent the next 18 months with its central and all-consuming goal being one that was unattainable, it would prevent it from engaging in more constructive activities.
In my view, the issue is more about what our political debates are devoted to. People only have a finite amount of time to pay attention to political issues, so there are opportunity costs to everything. If all of their time is devoted over the next 18 months to arguments over whether Bush and Cheney should be impeached and Nancy Pelosi should become President, I think that would let the administration off the hook. There are more effective tactics and strategies for changing the political landscape.
Scarecrow @ 184
Whether or not either Bush or Cheney can be convicted in the Senate, impeaching them both is an absolute imperative — because the power of Presidential pardon is absolute — except in cases of impeachment.
A Congressional Impeachment Committee opens the door to legal accountablity, even if they are not removed prior to expiration.
It would be easy for the U.S. to engage in a massive bombing campaign of Iran using the Air Force and Navy. And we have 150,000 troops in a neighboring country (two of them) which, one can easily envision, can be moved to engage Iran with relative ease.
Glenn Greenwald @ 179
thx for your reply… I had not thought about the trifecta convergence of the warmongering faction with the pro-Israeli faction with the rapturists….
I guess for all of them, the ends justify the means. Truly “tragic”, perhaps for all of us.
And I sadly agree with your assessment of invading Iran….
I will add, that this past week I was encouraged to hear that my very right wing, fundamentalist uncle in Louisiana “can not wait for next 18 mos to be over”… so maybe there would be enough public opposition to invading Iran to stop it.
grayslady @ 186
who said “Impeach them all, and let The Hague sort them out” ?
I didn’t know much about Fred Thompson until the last couple months, so I started with a blank slate on him. At least based on his comments and actions this year, I’d say he’s as extreme a neocon as any of the other candidates around. But it’s hard to discern with people like him how much of that is calculated and how much is real, though I think you have to take them at their words about their beliefs, and his are as repugnant, dishonest, and dangerous as any other of the candidates I’ve heard.
Hi
Buy 2 one to hand out to the fence setters and one for yourself. I always love giving away a book that make people think.
jo6pac
What allows this war to continue is the lack of pictures of coffins on nightly news programs.
Glenn,
I understand your argument not to impeach. It makes a lot of sense. But I wonder if it’s not a bit of a trap, the same kind Democrats keep falling into: the more is unearthed about Cheney and Bush’s crimes, the question becomes how could you *not* impeach them and remove them from office?
If they don’t impeach, don’t Democrats show yet again that they lack the spine for any conflict, lack core beliefs and values for which to fight?
It’s a tricky situation to navigate…
white_n_az @ 193
Impeachment only requires a simple majority in the House. And, once it becomes a “case of impeachment,”
pardonability disappears:
Huh?
Hearings that lead to impeachment focus on what high crimes and misdemeanors these people have done. It is not about whether they should be impeached until the very end of the process.
Review Watergate hearings.
Glenn—-if we are to focus on criminal charges rather than impeachment, could the president be charged criminally while he is still in office?
I think we all should agree that procrastinating on accountability for this is unacceptable, but if something big does break in the myriad of scandals we should be prepared with what sort of response and courses of action we should take.
Glenn Greenwald @ 201
I suppose that is true in theory. But unlike the truly Broken countries that we’ve already invaded (ie. Iraq/Afghan) Iran would be the penultimate quagmire. We haven’t a prayer of success and that ought to be clear to anyone with a brain. This is purely a pragmatic comment, by the way. This assumes that there were actual justification for an invasion – which there very clearly is not.
There is the racism factor as most Muslims are seen as being brown-skinned. It just adds another log on the fire.
FYI ….. while over reading Marcy’s piece, found this via WA-Post site:
Web Q&A: Monday, 1 p.m. ET
» Reporter Barton Gellman, will be online on Monday, June 25 to answer readers’ questions about the Cheney series.
I agree. If there are more revelations and they are more serious still, then the equation changes.
I became receptive to the idea, for instance, of impeaching Alberto Gonzales once it became so clear and easily demonstrated that he deliberately lied to Congress.
wigwam @ 206
GG @ 204–
Thompson just seems like Reagan, Mk 2–an easily manipulated actor, albeit somewhat smarter than GWB cuz that didn’t work out so good…
Glenn Greenwald @ 200
I have wondered if this is what the “surge” is really about.
Glenn Greenwald @ 214
Is your issue then that you do not expect such revelations to come out while he is in office, or not at all?
It seems like the investigations are all heating up at the same time, and I am just waiting for the top domino to fall and watch it all come tumbling down.
ccmask @ 206
Abso-fucking-lutely!
Glenn was talking about the ‘disconnect’ of his ‘bellweathers’ – I have some of these same folks here. It is precisely the adage, “out of sight, out of mind.” It’s not seen, it’s not tangible on a daily basis on network TV – therefore it doesn’t really exist or it’s too far away to care about.
Can I take it from that that you’ve never actually seen the terrain in question?
Wordsmith @ 219
Also the all-voluntary military. A draft would also end it immediately.
Dubhaltach @ 220–
“Can I take it from that that you’ve never actually seen the terrain in question?”
…he said *relative ease*.
Dubhaltach @ 220
Yah, also, we need our troops to protect the embassy monstrosity. That alone might explain the surge.
Matt Stoller @ 50
Holy smokes, what a beach party at the Lake today! First, Digby and Glenn Greenwald at the top, then in the comments I find hostess Jane Hamsher, front-pagers Pachacutec, TRex, Lew Koch, and Christy Hardin Smith, and now to top it all off, welcome Matthew Stoller, front-pager at MyDD for the past two years!
And add to that lineup our illustrious commenters– looks like the gang’s all here!!!
And that means a lot of real “meat” to chew on.
Thanks, all!
Bob in HI
Bob in HI
I’ve been thinking a lot about this. I remember talking with friends before the invasion of Iraq and many of them said that the idea was just too crackpot for “them” to let Bush do it.(”Them” being the real people in charge, whoever that is…) It was an article of faith that the US Government couldn’t do something so dangerous and stupid because the stakes were just too high.
Well, we know how that turned out. But I’m seeing the same thing again with Iran. The assumption is that Bush won’t do this thing because it’s just too dangerous and stupid and he won’t be able to get away with it. And, once again, I’m asking why we would think such a thing?
This is an example of the psychology behind the Big Lie technique going in the opposite direction. In this case, the more outrageous the proposal the less likely people are to take it seriously until it’s too late. Surely, there must be some other explanation — they are sabre rattling or using some sort of coercive diplomacy. But with these people, there’s really nothing subtle going on at all. Bush famously said “I don’t do nuance” and it’s true. If they are bellowing and sending ships steaming to the gulf and reports are all over the press that Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman are lobbying hard for a strike again Iran — believe it. They really do want to attack Iran.
Who can stop them?
I saw a photo in the Santa Fe newspaper recently of a row of flag-draped caskets lined up… and I thought “Finally… they are going to show the consequences of war…”
But in fact it was the firefighters killed in SC… who most definitely need to be honored.
But it made me sad that the soldiers die, and there is no tangible evidence for us to see.
Glenn,
i’m glad to admit that i was wrong about you goint to Salon, i still read you everyday. Good luck with this book, from all the snippets, i’m sure i agree with everything in it.
Digby,
Now that i don’t think of you as some guy shouting into the wind, i will take you more seriously ;) I think that you should ask everyone to pretend that your identity is still secret (just to keep them using their muscle building sentences)
Dubhaltach @ 221
Just impassable mountains. Link To Iran-Iraq Border Region Relief Map.
Glenn Greenwald @ 213
AGAG is clearly the easiest target for impeachment hearings. His own lies are damning enough, but the ongoing series of DOJ resignations make clear that he was not just a bad apple. The upper ranks of the DOJ have been a wholely owned subsidiary of the White House political operation, and it is collapsing from its own rot. This will resonate, easily, with the broader electorate — which is the biggest hurdle to getting Congress to pursue impeachment.
I don’t think the terrain matters if Bush goes nuuuuclear.
ccmask says:
June 24th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
What allows this war to continue is the lack of pictures of coffins on nightly news programs.
How would a patriot act?
A patriot would impeach those bastards.
A bombing campaign against Iran is problematic. First, because it is wrong. Second, it would have to be very large and extended. Third, it would jack the price of oil like you wouldn’t believe regardless of whether the flow was actually interrupted. Fourth, becauce it would have a devastating impact on the world economy.
Glenn Greenwald @ 201
‘Relative ease?’ Having been in the military – ‘relative ease’ is almost laughable. It’s not simply jumping in yer Humvee and taking off, free and clear. They’re battling inside Iraq and to have another front….
And you’re absolutely right, Zach (@221). Instituting the draft would have AMAZING impact. I hear it constantly from folks who are ‘good Republicans’ – simply put, not their children.
Thanks to Glenn, Digby, Christy, Jane et al for a fascinating discussion.
Random comments to follow:
Re: Glenn Greenwald @ 14
On one level, it’s almost signifies an entirely new level of media mindlessness, which I honestly didn’t think was possible.
Glenn, you had me for a second. And then I began to recall the Mighty Wurlitzer, Operation Mockingbird, the Office of Special Plans, al Hurra, “The Italian Letter”, Carl Rove’s fax machine and realized you were just pulling our collective leg. :)
***
Re: Laura Doty @ 18
Odd, how little attention seems to be paid to the McClatchy Baghdad bureau, which is doing such great work.
Laura, the glaring flaw in McClatchy’s system is that they do not own newspapers in major metro areas, especially being much missed by the minions inside the Beltway.
***
Speaking of The Mighty Wurlitzer I recently ran across a terrifically informative backgrounder on our new SecDec Robert Gates. The 3-part series is being featured on Tom Dispatch and at Asia Times.
Link: http://preview.tinyurl.com/2jo32o
Happy Trails to All!
ccmask @ 230
If people start lighting off thermonukes in the air above Iran, half the IT infrastructure of that end of the world, INCLUDING ALL THE OIL PUMPING, REFINING, AND SHIPPING equipment, will melt from the EMP effects. No way all that stuff in inside Faraday Cages. Ouch.
ccmask @ 229
That would be sadly ironic.
Dubhaltach @ 219
This is from Scott Horton’s article in Harpers:
The question, Glenn, is what can be done to stop what seems like the inevitable march to war with Iran? Is impeachment the answer? A resolution forbidding such action? Street demonstrations?
The consequences, in terms of both immediate violence and later blowback, seem unimaginably horrific. But how do you stop this?
Even many people who read my blog and whose opinion of Bush on every level could not be lower seem doubtful that he really will attack Iran. I think most people are doutbtful about it — don’t really believe it will happen — for all the reasons you said plus: how could we possibly engage a war with a country of 70 million people when bogged down in Iraq, still in Afghanistan, a military streched so thin. It’s just unthinkable.
But if you look at the rhetoric and how it has evolved over the last year towards Iran – as I did in the book – it really is identical to how they framed and then spoke of Iraq — the foundational rhetoric about them being Evil, the focus on the internal tyranny, the emerging claims that they are behind and connected to everything bad in the world, the hopes that it will be solved by diplomacy but the assurance that force will be used if it isn’t, etc.
They declared Iran “evil” back in 2002. It was clearly on the list of targets. And they are coming out, one by one, explicitly advocating war with Iran. Lieberman just did it for reasons having nothing to do with the supposed nuclear program. Cheney has all but done so.
Does anyone really doubt that Cheney wants a war with Iran? And if so, what is supposed to be the impediment to its happening? I think there is a bit of denial about the likelihood of that happening.
Raymond Duray @234:
Odd in sense that news from McC/Baghdad bureau is underreported in the blog world. A few notes re: Inside Iraq here and there…but violence report and other noteworthy articles aren’t to be seen (except at Juan Cole), by and large.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 225
i think most of iran’s oil is in the sw – no mountains?
Peterr @229:
The problem with impeachment is failure to convict. Once that happens, all restraint is off these guys. If you only have one bullet, you have to make darn sure you won’t miss or only cause a flesh wound.
I’m not saying it would be smart to do or merely a matter of getting in a jeep — just that if we decide that we want to engage Iranian troops near the Southern border of Iraq or inside Iran, we can find ways to move the troops there, from Iraq and Afghanistan, to do it.
Peterr @ 224:
But the question is, does he just become a scapegoat? The degree of political corruption and malfeasance involved at the DOJ is simply staggering. The US Attorney firings is just the tip of the iceberg. The shenanigans at the Civil Rights Division get much more to the heart of the matter, and despite a number of withering hearings, Congress as a whole has yet to really grasp the enormity of what’s been going on. Impeach Gonzales, and it could all just peter out. I think more buildup is necessary, a lot more case-building.
Glenn Greenwald @ 238
I agree, the likelihood is very real.
Cheney definitely wants war with Iran, but does he still have enough pull to get it done?
For all the reports that he has lost his “clout”, I worry that it’s all a show. I think Cheney is thinking “what do I have to lose?”, as politically the Republican party is shot in ‘08 regardless unless something dramatic changes things.
I fear that he thinks this kind of move could be the impetus to swing things back in their favor.
Zach @ 236
IIRC about a year ago (Concerned Scientists?) did a nuclear bomb damage assessment postulating using nuclear penetrators on Iranian nuclear sites. Early and intermediate deaths were about six million, mostly from fall-out.
Just to be clear – I’m not an opponent of impeachment. I wouldn’t vote against it and wouldn’t argue against it. Quite the opposite.
But we all make choices about how our time and energy are best directed and, in my view, for my own time and energies, devoting it all or most of it to arguing for something that isn’t going to happen, tactically speaking, doesn’t strike me as constructive.
Glenn, thank you for spending so much time at the lake today and sharing your insights. I read your last “Blook” and did not get to join in your book salon discussion on it. You will be happy to note that I openly and notoriously read “How Would A Patriot Act” in airports from OKC to YKos held last year in Vegas.
I prolly sold two books for you, but instigated numerous conversations.
I have not read your latest “Blook” yet, but I will, merely to arm myself against the Coburn/Inhofe supporters of Oklahoma.
Digby @ 224 and Glenn upthread:
If, as Glenn states at the beginning of his book and I believe is true, Bush truly believes he was put in as Prez by God, I see nothing that could stop him and his cabal from invading Iran before he departs office… this is in effect his last shot.
I do think there would be a much larger public protest than there was against Iraq, but given how above the law this group is… Bush would probably do it w/o asking anyone.
Cus if it truly is the welcoming of Christ back to earth, as they believe… The CNN interview with the Left Behind authors was chilling – they are absolutely convinced… then there will be no repercussions for Bush et al.
In a way it’s like a Muslim suicide bomber anticipating the 70 virgins… Bush would be returning Christ to earth and it doesn’t get much more heady than that.
Does anyone really doubt that Cheney wants a war with Iran? And if so, what is supposed to be the impediment to its happening? I think there is a bit of denial about the likelihood of that happening.
What about an article of impeachment that says it’s an impeachable offense to start a preemptive war and to threaten to initiate a war without express Congressional authorization?
Glenn Greenwald @ 238
Glenn, I read you daily and agree with your points and Digby’s points. The warning signs are very clearly there. The case is being constructed around as and the media is once again complicit. Having said that, there remains a pragmatic consideration that makes Iran different from Iraq in an important respect. There will be substantial blow back to an extended bombing campaign against Iran. There is no conceivable way that the military that is already overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan can be expected to handle the onslaught of Iran’s response.
I remember the MSM showed the folks in Afghanistan giving out candy to kids on 911. Of course, it was very old footage they used. But it enabled them to lure Americans to the war effort.
What will the MSM use to get us to want to go into Iran? Another terror attack…
Dear Digby, All right. Now I _am_ worried. I thought that it was just my penchant for findng economical explanations for more-or-less random facts that made the possibility of invading Iran a likelihood.
You think clearly, though, and _you_ rate the danger as real?
I’ve emailed my Senator. What else can we do? Campaign against the confirmation of this new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who comes from the Navy — the service with the perhaps the responsibility for much of the attack?
Glenn Greenwald @ 97
I do see this point, and it’s a vital one. I wrote about it some earlier this week.
One of the most revealing aspects of our “war on terror” — and Digby referred to this in her initial post — is how identical the rhetoric of bin Laden and Bush/Cheney is, how similar the Good/Evil mentality has become. As you know, Richard Hofstadter wrote long ago about the dangers of “Emulating the Enemy.”
That is, as you point out, a danger in domestic politics as well, as we attempt to figure out how to uproot the right-wing poison that has infected the country and prevent it from infecting the rest of our political system. Avoiding that same mindset, ensuring that we stay rooted in reason, while developing effective and aggressive strategies, is the most difficult challenge.
This is exactly right on! For example, here at FDL, trying to figure out how to uproot the wingnuts from our political system, we need to beware becoming too much like them. Do we really want to raise up a Lee Atwater or Karl Rove among us who promises to lead us to victory, but changing who we are in the process? There’s danger ahead!
Bob in HI
OK so you don’t know the terrain It’s very obvious that you know nothing of logistics and the concept of “choke point” is apparently also terra incognita.
@245
Or justify postponing an election
Just one word about impeachment. Although it is a political act, it relies upon certain legal constructs to make it work. In other words you have to be able to make a quasi-legal case that high crimes and misdemeanors were committed.
In Watergate, the press had been zealous in putting together an understandable (and rather simple) case that the judiciary committee could use as a basis for the hearing — and the news that the tapes held incontrovertible evidence of the president’s involvement pretty much sealed the deal.
In Clinton’s case, Ken Starr handed a cute little erotic novella over to Henry Hyde and newt Gingrich, which he’d spent five years and 70 million dollars developing. All the House had to do was put on a good show and then vote down partisan lines.
I don’t think this is as easy. The Democrats have had very restricted access to the information they need to make a case for impeachment, and the stonewalling from the administration has already begun. Lord knows the press has been asleep for most of the past six years. There just isn’t time to do it from scratch.
Now if something falls out of the sky, like Alexander Butterfield dropping a bomb that Bush and Cheney have been videotaping all their conversations — or all of Karl Rove’s emails miraculously come to light — perhaps there is a chance. But unless they have what looks to be a pretty solid case, with evidence to back it up, — I dunno.
If only we’d won the House in 2004…
Scarecrow -
An attack on Iran — assuming that it happened without Congressional authorization — would justify impeachment, or any other means, to stop it (although Congress has ceded some of its war powers via the War Powers Resolution and other acts).
Glenn Greenwald @ 243
I agree with Glenn that it is highly likely that the U.S. will enter into a direct military confrontation with Iran in the near future. The U.S. has struggled mightily with the Iraq occupation and it has cost the Republican party dearly. A war with Iran will be just that — a war. And it will more than likely transform into a traditional confrontation that will force other countries (such as Russia and China) into active proxy roles. At that point it resembles, not an occupation, but a long-term traditional military conflict. All of the benefits will accrue to those parties within the U.S. who are benefiting from the current conflict. It might even lead to a 2009 Republican presidency.
Glenn – can you go into your writing process? How long to write “A Tragic Legacy”? How many hours a day spent on it?
Glenn Greenwald @ 247
I think that the failed no-confidence vote shows that the public attitude in the “swing vote, Republican Senators States, would not allow conviction of any Republican official. Even if the public would support it, the “party” would have a long memory to exact revenge for those who did hold the line.
Digby @ 257
what digby says
Dubhaltach -
Well, that’s great news, then. There are impenterable mountains and magic terrain protecting Iran from an invasion, and preventing our troops from getting there, so there is nothing to worry about.
Dubhaltach @ 255
tanks DO NOT drive long distances on their treads. They have to be moved on special tank carrier trucks or rail cars. I suspect many or most of those roads through the mountains cannot support such vehicles and the rail lines are almost certainly useless for that purpose.
And if we can’t even get REGULAR MEALS to our troops in BAGHDAD because of supply line problems from KUWAIT, the idea we could even begin a ground invasion of Iran boggles the mind.
OTOH, DEFENDING Iraq from Iranian conventional attacks, THAT we can do…
If only we’d won the Whitehouse in 2004 . . .
U.S. Mail of actual physical paper letters counts more heavily.
Use full business letter format, with headers.
Slow down, do the best formal writing you’re capable of. Sleep on it, and re-edit the next day. Asking an articulate friend for constructive criticism is always a good idea.
Address one and only one issue in your letter.
Be respectful.
Dubhaltach @ 251
Nonsense! Sadam had a ground invasion plan in his war, and he didn’t have the massive air support we would have. I think Glenn’s take on how Bush/Cheney might be thinking is eminently plausible.
All we need to do is advance 30 miles into Iranian territory, and everybody starts throwing flowers at us.
Glenn—-if you’re so certain it’s not going to happen (I assume because of an understandably low opinion of the democrats leadership abilities), then what is your plan of action following Bush’s presidency?
Convicting a former president of a crime is unprecedented of course,so there will be much work that needs to be done on that front. Do you trust that our leaders will be strong enough to do that if they really aren’t strong enough to impeach him?
-ck- @ 265
Or Whitehouse in the White House in 2008!
Glenn Greenwald @ 257
An attack on Iran — assuming that it happened without Congressional authorization — would justify impeachment, or any other means, to stop it (although Congress has ceded some of its war powers via the War Powers Resolution and other acts).
I agree, but if you believe that, then why is such a stretch to commence impeachment now, as a deterrent against starting the war in the first place? If you say, allege, they’re undermining security of the US by recklessly threatening preemptive war, and they are planning this without authorization from Congress, and cite that as an ongoing article — then it’s a deterrent.
Writing this book was much harder than I anticipated. My first book was 1/3 the size and much more focused on a single issue that I had written ample amounts about on my blog, and it was just a matter of putting it together in a couple months to make a coherent argument.
This book took me about 6 months to write. It’s hard to quantify how many hours a day, since it really depended, but I basically took a month off from blogging (at least that was the idea) and worked on it every day – 10-12 hours a day for a month – in order to finish the manuscript. Probably 50% of the work happens once the manuscript is done – the editing and re-structuring to make it coherent, focused, etc., is very time-consuming.
But it really enables you to think through issues, do lots of research, develop arguments much more thoroughly than day-to-day blog writing allows.
jane hamsher @ 60
Not an Agency but maybe Surrogate Chief of Staff…
So this has been asked by Digby earlier I believe… but what can be done to prevent conflict with Iran. Certainly a withdrawal from Iraq likely reduces tensions but this is not going to happen (clearly). Repeal of the war authorization for Iraq??? Might help some… but seems hards to achieve and not likely to prevent expansion.
Laura Doty @ 257
That and renditioning the “traitors” that have helped the terrorists so much due to their dissent.
Paul Rosenberg @ 267
Iran/Iraq war was a meat grinder that nearly destroyed both nations and resulted in NO net territorial gain for either side. They got so desperate they used chemical weapons on each other’s forces. Those mountains may not be impenetrable, but they sure eat ground forces like candy. No THANK you.
Glenn said:
I think its more accurate to say governance offends them than that it bores them. They believe that the only legitimate roles of the federal government are foreign policy and subsidizing the “free market”. They have been aggressively trying to dismantle all domestic programs such as social security, FEMA, the EPA, the IRS, etc.
Zach @ 99
I think HuffPo and Salon are both trying to emulate the next generation equivalent of Newspapers-on-line; take a look at how the front page of HuffPo is designed, and look at how Salon’s Newsletter is laid out. Either one could set up a regular Book Review feature, and I think it would do well.
Bob in HI
Harry -
Convicting a former president of a crime is unprecedented of course,so there will be much work that needs to be done on that front. Do you trust that our leaders will be strong enough to do that if they really aren’t strong enough to impeach him?
I think impeachment or anything like it requires broad public outcry. Congressional hearings to expose and uncover the dispositive evidence of criminality that the public sees and understands, forcing into the public discussion an examination of that evidence, is a pre-requisite to that happening.
The most I hoped for from a Democratic victory were probing investigations exactly for that reason. As Digby said, Watergate was preceded by a lengthy process of investigation – not merely the impeachment hearings but everything that came before that. Because of all sorts of factors — unprecedented Bush secrecy, the zombified press, the submissive Congress, etc. – there has not been nearly enough of that yet.
OT..but looking at the 06/23 deaths in Iraq, the initial reports of 7 or 8 is now up to 12. The deaths, combat and non-combat related seem to have occurred in at least six separate locations. Things are heating up.
Glenn Greenwald @ 264
Well, that’s great news, then. There are impenterable mountains and magic terrain protecting Iran from an invasion, and preventing our troops from getting there, so there is nothing to worry about.
Welll…there truly is a reasonable explanation as to why Switzerland has managed to maintain itself neutrally and unoccupied as it has. :)
Who can stop them?
THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS. Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, if the similar plenary power of impeachment is too difficult for them to invoke (Congress has a wealth of unused powers to rein in our lawless Executive Branch).
Unused and rusty (since war was last declared by Congress in order to enter WWII), but fundamental to our founding system of government, so as to keep the people in charge rather than a kingly, tyrannical president, subjecting us all to his arbitrary will (see: the angst of much of this thread and the blogosphere at large).
“No taxation without representation” was about taxes Britain was trying to impose on the colonies to recover war costs incurred in the long French & Indian War(s).
We must start piercing the covering myth that the President, not Congress, controls if we use our Armed Forces against an ‘enemy.’ Where’s the peace treaty between America and Iraq? Or is there something in Iraq still threatening the continental United States? If not, Congrss must invoke the inherent, plenary powers of the LEGISLATIVE BRANCH to revoke the president’s authority to use our Armed Forces in the ongoing occupation of Iraq.
Or else, as Scarecrow absolutely rightly says about impeachment: we lose that power – carefully vested in we, the people, for VERY good reason – effectively forever.
Ruchira @ 92
Excellent point, Ruchira. I hadn’t actually thought of it in quite that way before.
Digby @ 224,
I have long resigned myself to the fact that Dubya will go to war with Iran. I do not know if this falls under what you phrase as “triuphatalism” or however you spell that phrase, but posted at this site by me on September 2, 2006 at 6pm was two words:
glenn greenwald at 158 says:
“I think all of that fits the classic definition of “tragic.” I don’t think Bush himself is a “tragic figure.” But the legacy he has left our country is tragic.”
========
re; Your Title-A Tragic Legacy
webster’s-
tragic, tragical,
Pertaining to tragedy; murderous; calamitous.
i think it fits quite well.
Yeah, you’re right, Dubhaltach, a knowledge of logistics would suggest that, if the White House were seriously considering an attack on such a mountainous country, they’d be moving overwhelming amounts of ship based fire-power into the gulf, building air bases and ‘lily pads’ throughout neighboring countries, surging troops into the region, and musing about using ‘limited nukes’…
oh, wait a minute….
Alfred Kelgarries @ 235
Neglecting tax considerations, what, under those circumstances, is the rationale for Halliburton transplanting its headquarters from this country to Dubai?
jane hamsher @ 60
I vote for hemorrhoid.
Glenn Greenwald @ 99
One of the most revealing aspects of our “war on terror” — and Digby referred to this in her initial post — is how identical the rhetoric of bin Laden and Bush/Cheney is, how similar the Good/Evil mentality has become.
Glenn,
In 2004 British viewers were able to watch “The Power of Nightmares”, a 3 part documentary by Adam Curtis. This documentary hasn’t been broadcast in the U.S., and probably never will be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T…..Nightmares
In the film, Curtis speculated about the rise of fundamentalism in both the Islam and the Anglo-American spheres to be “joined at the hip”, with each force amplifying the power of its mirror image. An interesting premise that I more-or-less ascribe to, with the added dollop that in fact there seems to be ample evidence of financial aid to certain factions of al Qaeda coming from our Western intelligence services. Comments?
Steve @ 279
That’s only because we’re now fighting the terrorists. Duh.
Everyone – Thanks so much for this discussion, which has covered a lot of topics in-depth, especially for this format.
Any other follow-ups or comments, etc. – feel free to e-mail or drop by my blog.
Thanks to Digby and everyone at FDL for hosting this – I really appreciate it.
Scarecrow @ 248
scarecrow – that seems as unlikely as impeachment – maybe even more so. at least that’s what recent events seem to suggest.
we didn’t even get our promised (by speaker pelosi when it was pulled from the iraq supplemental) stand alone bill that telling president bush not to attack iran w/o congressional approval.
i think there was an amendment, H.AMDT.187, to a defense appropriations bill – but it lost with 99 dems voting against it and speaker pelosi not voting.
i see no signs of the dem congressional leadership being interesting in preventing an attack on iran (that’s one reason i’ve been so freaked out about h.con.r.21)
Glenn Greenwald @ 279
I think impeachment or anything like it requires broad public outcry. Congressional hearings to expose and uncover the dispositive evidence of criminality that the public sees and understands, forcing into the public discussion an examination of that evidence, is a pre-requisite to that happening.
The most I hoped for from a Democratic victory were probing investigations exactly for that reason. As Digby said, Watergate was preceded by a lengthy process of investigation – not merely the impeachment hearings but everything that came before that. Because of all sorts of factors — unprecedented Bush secrecy, the zombified press, the submissive Congress, etc. – there has not been nearly enough of that yet.
I agree, but I am hoping for a smoking gun to emerge that would force even our zombified press to take notice. Your recent Al Qaeda post scares me most in that their complicity might be so entrenched that even with such a watershed coming to light they may not respond…
Alfred Kelgarries @ 241
The odds of conviction grow with every new document dump, every new deputy or associate or assistant attorney general that resigns, every new revelation of White House mucking around, and more.
Are we there yet? No.
But the day is surely drawing nearer, and the speed of the unraveling will only increase.
Thank you both for spending the time today!
Alfred Kelgarries @ 271
Apparently, you completely misunderstand.
Glenn is not saying it is a wise policy. He is saying it is something BushCo would very likely talk themselves into without much of a problem. You and I may look at the Iran/Iraq was and draw a sensible conclusion. But BushCo’s record says that they will not. Hence my flower-throwing reference.
Digby @ 256
Digby,
You have provided the best case for NOT impeaching than I have seen yet.
However, I have faith that if impeachment starts in the House, with subpoena powers that even this WH could deny, solid articles of impeachment could at least be written for Gonzales and probably for Cheney, too. And Gonzales is the firewall– remove him, and suddenly much else is going to come unstuck.
No other administration in history has done more that merits impeachment than this one. This Congress will be derelict in its duties if it does NOT impeach anyone.
Bob in HI
Via Atrios, George Will nails the Bush/Cheney epitath:
No One Could Have Predicted . . .
Thanks everybody!
Oilfieldguy @ 282
Bush will but will the military go along? The Army and Marine Corps are so beaten down they may stage a soft coup. The Air Force would nuke Iran in a fundie minute.
Thanks for the book, which I look forward to reading, and for your time…
Scarecrow @ 184
Bingo! If we don’t impeach, and nobody goes to jail, then the zombies will rise up again, and we’ll be living in a fascist state by 2016. I truly believe that.
By the way, thank you Jane, Christy, Digby & Glenn, for all the great work you do.
Glenn, thanks for coming and taking on our questions. And thanks also to Digby for the intro and the responses.
So long folks. I’ve been sitting at Starbucks drinking coffee for so long I’m going to have a heart attack.
It’s been great fun talking to you all, as always.
cheers — digby
Glenn Greenwald @ 289
Thanks so much for being here today, Glenn. I hope everyone is convinced of the wisdom of buying Glenn’s book after this fine discussion and will take the opportunity to help push it up the sales charts by doing so here.
Oh and DIGBY! I’ve been reading you for a loonngg time, rarely comment. No, I didn’t know you were ‘me’ but now that I know you are – I have even MORE RESPECT for your intellect and thoughtfulness.
Raymond Duray @ 287
In terms of Western Intel financing Al Qaeda… Is the premise that this goes back to what I would call “pre-Al Qaeda”, ie. when Bin Laden was in Afghanistan fighting the USSR? If so, that is not a new theory. It seems that the CIA/ISI and Saudis were involved in funding and training.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 285
1) No extradition treaty with US. That, IMHO, is the clearest possible rebuttal to the Tinfoil Hat crowd. If Chimpy was going to do a false flag and/or declare himself president for life, they wouldn’t bother.
2) Immunity from seizure of assets from adverse court judgements in the us. Dubai’s banks are owned by the royal family, and process many of the world’s largest financial transactions. They will politely refuse to turn of the money when the us govt seizure people come looking.
3) Immunity from taxation of offshore revenue. This is hairy and IAMAAccountant, but think of it as a ME version of the Cayman Islands.
4) If the US REALLY goes down the tubes (internal upheaval, eco-collapse, etc) a safe haven protected by wealth, power and distance.
That’s for starters. I’m sure the heavier hitters here can do even better.
Peterr @ 291
I see the AG ‘obstructing justice’ by not enforcing contempt citations for various subpoena’s issued by Senate and House which means that there will be an escalation of the process in due time
Jane: What do you think of the new Kate Spade lobster purse?
It is Union of Concerned Scientists that has the animated demo of nuclear bunker busters.
Now those who say “just nuke em” don’t even consider a few tiny little details:
They assume that bunker busters will be entirely accurate & reliable.
They don’t know how far the fallout will reach. It has been estimated that all surrounding countries would be highly impacted.
What of radiation carried by winds around the world?
Digby @ 303
Hmmm….my butt gets numb.
Paul Rosenberg @ 294
oh, you were in snark mode. sorry, i’m normally a late nite guy, but i’ve been up all weekend with work and am posting in unfamiliar forums. mea culpa. :)
glenn greenwals at 271 says:
snip
“….Probably 50% of the work happens once the manuscript is done – the editing and re-structuring to make it coherent, focused, etc., is very time-consuming. ”
snip
anything get edited out that you would like us to know?
Hi Glenn:
Great work every day at Salon-looking forward to your book. I think that your daily efforts as well those throughout the blogosphere will keep some degree of pressure on the administration against an Iran invasion. A congressional resolution prohibiting military action without its approval seems to be a vital check against this out of control government.
Thanks for all you do.
New Thread! I got the Zed
ironranger @ 309
A great & informative organization….
Digby @ 256
The biggest difference between 1973/74 and today is the existence of the blogosphere. A story that took months to develop in the early seventies can blossom much more quickly today.
Imagine if Josh Marshall and Paul Keil at TPM had to look through all those DOJ document dumps alone. “Bury them in paper” was once a bureaucratic means for delay, but no more.
Time to do it from scratch mean one thing when it was just Woodward and Bernstein. Today, it is something much different.
Jane’s Sunday best, upstairs!
Best Little Whorehouse in Blogtopia
I can’t tell if Bush really believes all of his “Good vs. Evil” rhetoric- or whether it’s a convenient way to get his base on board his agenda which he is propogating for an entirely different reason- payback to his financial supporters. Can’t tell which is the tail and which is the dog.
Ya’all will have to excuse my lack of being able to process alot of the legalities involved,but am I to understand that there is no case at all for any kind of criminal prosecution of any member of this administration? Surely by now there’s got to be several things they could be charged with…maybe?
I admittedly have had little contact with the legal system in my life,so I don’t really get how things work.
Impeachment as a legal construct. Puleeze.
Like Scooter-n-Clenis? Ya gotta be shittin’ me. I fall more in the camp of Glenn on time constraints than the camp of doable. As if legality had any bearing whatsoever on the republican party.
It is with great hesitancy that I throw this rock; Digby, please come to!
Digby, you wrote an outstanding introduction. If only our Members of Congress cared as much about the original intent and idealism of our Founders and shared their hopes and dreams for this nation, as do you and Glenn.
Glenn – Thank you so much for your passion, as well as for your steady, unwavering dedication to the founding principles of America, as embodied in our Constitution. A Constitution of ‘mere words’ that only meaningfully exists and comes to life when we act on those words with our deeds – but which just as easily ceases to exist when our actions defy those words. Your dedication to the truth inspires us all.
Glenn Greenwald @ 140
The Wonkette was one of the first blogs I read regularly, back when she was THE Wonkette, and I was very new to the very existence of blogging. She had a nice balance of snarkiness and genuine insight back then. But it went down hill when she left. I saw her recently as a talking head on TV and I thought they identified her as an editor at WaPo??? I think she’s still trying to find her footing. I hope she doesn’t sell her soul in the process.
Bob in HI
Impeachment is a non-starter in my opinion. To think that a significant number of gooper senators would vote to kick out a gooper president is beyone fantasy. Ain’t a gonna happen. Let’s move on.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 311
No biggie.
I’m always in snark mode. It might not look like it, but that’s just when I’m just idling.
In the five years plus since the 9/11 attacks, the simplest way to gauge President Bush’s changing political fortunes has been his changing attitude towards Osama Bin Laden. In the Bush playbook, the threat posed by Bin Laden danger is directly proportional to the threat to the President’s political standing:
“All I would ask them to do is listen to the words of Osama bin Laden and take him seriously. When he says he’s going to hurt the American people again, or try to, he means it. I take it seriously, and the people of NSA take it seriously.” (January 25, 2006)
“So I don’t know where he is. You know, I just don’t spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you…I’ll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him.” (March 13, 2002)
“Gosh, I just don’t think I ever said I’m not worried about Osama bin Laden. It’s kind of one of those exaggerations. Of course we’re worried about Osama bin Laden.” (October 13, 2004)
“There’s an old poster out west, as I recall, that said, ‘Wanted: Dead or Alive.’” (September 17, 2001)
For the story, see:
“Bush Flip-Flops on Bin Laden”
Glenn Greenwald @ 149
But I do think it’s imperative that Bush and company be held meaningfully accountable for the felonies they have committed in office. We have adopted this idea that “illegal behavior by government officials” is not real criminality, the type that warrants prison. We have to stomp that premise out, because until we do, rampant lawbreaking by government officials is guaranteed. Why would they be incentivized not to break the law if they know there are no consequences?
Amen!
I think impeachment of Cheney is the way to go? The question should be asked and asked again– Should Cheney be impeached? Does Cheney believe he is above the law? Should the VP be able to position himself as unaccountable? The discussion should go on and on– AND if momentum builds it puts pressure on all those sitting on secrets and inclined to support the VP’s madness to defend themselves against the indefensible. Discussing why Cheney should be impeached will school the public on all of his wrong-doing. Credibility is the key thing we must take away. It becomes harder to act, harder to defend those actions. And, thoughts of impeaching Cheney will be seductive, popular.
RE: a long ago comment. I don’t think Cheney/Bush mimic the current enemy. I think they are mimicing their old and favored nemesis, the Russians– the audiences composed of only followers, the cronyism, theft from government coffers, rigged, kangaroo courts,secre prisons, torture, the KGB, a propogandistic press– As a child these were recited to us as the horrors of the enemy system. What haven’t they adopted?
Glenn,
Great to see you and Digby here, you are both an inspiration.
With regards to Bush and Cheney’s lawlessness, the fact remains that they get away with it because simply put, no one has the balls to stop them.
The DOJ is a sock puppet, and the Congress have already proven themselves worthless. If anyone is expecting the Democrats to step up the the plate, then you’re in for a huge disappointment.
Oilfieldguy @ 148 – This one’s for you, to use in your defense when next arguing with your pigheaded colleague(s). It’s Abe Lincoln, in his own words as a Member of Congress, from a letter to his law partner, in which Lincoln challenges and disputes the very ‘preemptive war’ argument that you were addressing (you’re in good company):
[With thanks to commenter ‘Zwoman’ who was responding to a Robert Parry article which criticized Carl Levin’s abusive invocation of Lincoln’s integrity in Levin’s recent Post op-ed (an op-ed which misleadingly attempted to justify Levin’s unjustifiable dereliction of his sworn Congressional duty).]
Note that this letter from Lincoln is dated the month the Mexican War ended with the signing of a peace treaty on February 2, 1848, and three months after Lincoln took office, and thus first had any ability to ‘fund the troops’ despite disagreeing with the war itself (which Congress had in fact declared using its Clause 11 powers, but which had effectively ended in September of 1847 before Lincoln was sworn in to office).
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/062107.html
The very sales pitch Bush used for war to others in the Middle East took a back seat to campaigning.
That’s right, Bush admits terror, the thing he uses as mantra in any press conference or speech, takes a back seat to campaign cycles.
That’s a five alarm fire bell for procedure and rule of law.
annagranfors @ 221
Well, yes, its “relatively” easier to attack Iran from Iraq than, say, from Florida. But as Duhaltach implies, the statement is quite disingenuous and shows no knowledge of the difficulties provided by the terrain and the roads, etc. (or lack thereof).
Bob in HI
A little late tonight: Hi Glenn! Time to go to the bookstore…
This was so great! Thanks to all!
ignatious @ 327
If Cheney is impeached, can Bush be considered in Obstruction if he pardons?
That is the concern of persons in the Executive branch, Nixon’s precedent provides ample comparison.
He could not pardon everyone else without himself being party to crime, so in issuance of pardons he had to have a successor pardon him, the VP he campaigned with could not assume his seat and be able to do so.
Fitz is not moving forward until appeals clears procedure. He will though, and he’ll have a stronger case if Libby is still found guilty.
Can the POTUS appoint Fred Thompson via Patriot, during recess, when Congress is not in session? This is the end run around the Libby decision, after appeal. It’s the only way around the Democratic majority.
Dubhaltach @ 255
Coming in very late to the salon, sorry…
Dubhaltach, the “relative ease” is not in terms of physical terrain. It’s political and economic terrain that makes moving the troops easier in highly relative terms. If Bush/Cheney (B/C) wanted to muster up another 50,000 troops to focus on Iran’s borders, above and beyond those already serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, it would be uglier than the arguments over the troops requested for the surge. B/C do not have to request additional troops; they only have to reassign those already in Iraq/Afghanistan, and they can do so Constitutionally since the AUMF does not pointedly rule out their use against Iran. Were B/C to create a false flag op that appeared to be a terrorist attack from within Iran, they would not have to come back to Congress for troops for an “initial” response.
Hence “relative ease”. It is this “ease” that terrifies me.
Glenn Greenwald @ 263
Well, that’s great news, then. There are impenterable mountains and magic terrain protecting Iran from an invasion, and preventing our troops from getting there, so there is nothing to worry about.
Well, there’s plenty to worry about. As stated above, what BushCo has mobilized is an immense air strike power base. Cheney is trying to convince Bush that we can do it all with air power. The problem is that an all-out attack like that on Iran could unleash Iranian forces in Iraq. I don’t think even Bush and Cheney are stupid enough to send a ground force very far into Iran, but I do think they’re tempted about an air strike– actually, a massive series of air strikes. And I am worried about that.
Bob in HI
joel hanes @ 266
But DON’T send physical letters to Washington DC, because the mail system to Congress is operating in the wake of anthrax letters still. Better to FAX letters to Washington, if time is an issue.
Bob in HI
Bob Schacht @ 335
And you should be. Air cannot hold ground, and modern air is vulnerable much more than some think. And the minute we hit the Iranians, they have already said they will do three things:
1) stop all oil sales to everyone everywhere.
2) mine the entire persian gulf with as many mines as they can. most of their subs are configured for minelaying operations for that reason.
3) sink every merchant ship and oil tanker in the gulf. then bomb every refinery and tanker terminal in the gulf, with special attention to the LNG ones (the “atomic bomb in a tanker” ones.)
ALL oil flow out of the middle east would stop dead. Makes 1974 look like a picnic. Gas will be $1000 dollars a gallon WHEN YOU CAN GET IT, most will be confiscated to keep the food and medical trucks running, and emergency vehicles.
The world economy might collapse like a house of cards.
Yeah, we have a few things to be worried about…
What a wall of worry…! Has there been this much angst since the election? Is something about to happen that might be construed as cataclysmic?
I pick Hugh’s @ 232 answer about the impact of an invasion…(snip)
That’s what is left after the American Economic Engine is leaned out to a sputter. But the world wants technology and where do they go to get it? Nasdaq.
And now the parade of white soldiers awaits to climb a wall of technology, willing to conquer the summer political doldrums and chase the dog days of BusChen Imperial Malaise through the door ajar at 9/11.
Since this is their last chance, expect a good one. The shills are tuning their forks for the feast. Lead the lambs to the slaughter and watch as China fever strikes a blow for bubbles everywhere. Let the markets welcome their new masters! And if that happens…? It’s out the door in September. BusChen ist kaput!
Well, which would you rather have…Taiwan or LA? Nope, you keep LA, China keeps Taiwan, and Bush keeps his SS detail. But not his Dick. No balls, no strikes. Just errors. He can up and quit. That would preclude impeachment and the exposure to ultimate scrutiny and pejoration.
Paul Rosenberg @ 267
Yeah, yeah, that’s what they told us before Iraq. I don’t believe a word of it, and I’ve been to that part of Iran.
Bob in HI
Bob Schacht @ 339
when and why? that’s not an area real hospitable to furriners….
Zach @ 305
In terms of Western Intel financing Al Qaeda… Is the premise that this goes back to what I would call “pre-Al Qaeda”, ie. when Bin Laden was in Afghanistan fighting the USSR? If so, that is not a new theory. It seems that the CIA/ISI and Saudis were involved in funding and training.
Hi Zach,
We will actually get to see this story unfold on the big screen on Christmas Day. George Crile’s paean to Texas playboy arrogance, “Charlie Wilson’s War” is directed by Mike Nichols. This should be interesting. I know Nichols and co-star Philip Seymour Hoffman to be impassioned liberals. It’s hard to tell what they’ll come up with with an ultra-nationalist poser (er, I mean’t to say ‘actor’) like Tom Hanks in the lead. I’m sensing a mixed message.
The book itself was very enlightening and informative for me.
http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780802141248-8
While it was basically a hagiography to Charlie Wilson (who has retired from the House to lobby full time, especially for Pakistan) the book did expose much of the arrogance and willful disregard for the rule of law that is so endemic to our intel services.
So, in brief, we can say that the U.S. CIA’s largest covert operation in history was the funding of the mujahedeen resistance in Afghanistan in the 1980s. The operatives who were part of that branched out to become the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the Arab-Afghanis who were harbored by the Taliban, other “al-Qaeda” type operatives who flowed out of CIA created and then al Qaeda operated camps into such other hot spots as Chechnya, the Balkans, Kashmir and other venues. If you are interested in some of this history, I can provide more detail and more links.
Greenwald’s argument doesn’t make a lick of sense. Greenwald gets up each morning and fights Evil. In one sentence Greenwald rails against Good vs Evil and in the next sentence lays out what is Good, and what should be fought for, i.e various values which by the way I hold are Good. Bush was elected in 2000 on a values platform. Values is as liable to misuse as Good vs. Evil. Yes, there was the Axis of Evil speech but the problem with that is all the people in those countries are far from Evil. Rawls left the Good up to individuals but did so within in a framework of Justice. Does Greewald make that argument? No. I think this is such a poor argument that it must be a stalking horse for another position that Greenwald holds. In fact I think this is such a poor argument by someone who is extremely bright that it speaks deception. This argument is apparently for the rabble at large. Adios Glenn and Digby who has been pushing this too.
David Ehrenstein @ 45
This post contains two observations I wish Glenn, Digby, FDL, etc would address. First is the propensity of the MSM to “blame the American people” when all else fails. It’s seems to me to be the ultimate strawman.
Second, the information divide under which we currently operate is extraordinary. Is it not true that “most” Americans get their “news” via television, radio, or newspaper? Absent access to the internet and the skills to make use of it, these people continue to be duped and “dupable”. Is that not the 23% that continues to approve of Bush or is that number substantially higher? Is it an age divide?
nlacey @ 344
I can only comment on this portion, about the information divide. Please refer to the Pew Internet & American Life project for reports about the uptake of internet over time. 70 to 71% of Americans use the internet, with the lowest adoption rates occurring at age 50 and above, decreasing as potential users get older. You’ll also notice in Pew reports that Americans increasing get their news from the internet, although not necessarily to the exclusion of other sources, and only across half of the internet user base.
What this suggests is that the oldest voters are least likely to get their news from the internet; we can reasonably infer that they get their news instead from broadcast, cable and print outlets instead. The challenge to the progressive world is that these oldest voters who are least mediated by the internet are the most frequent and consistent voters — and are among the “duped”. Other reports indicate that young people, particularly women, are least likely to vote, although they may be among the most wired.
We need to use the internet to encourage these youngest voters to participate and offset the votes of the oldest and least wired among us.
Pardon my rhetoric and choice of metaphors, but the crazies of the Bush administration are like rabid jackals backed against a cliff — I sense that they shall lunge back in a naive and desperate last act to conceal their psychosis.
Therefore, the legacy of Bush and the neocons has not completely been “destroyed” — they still seek the total destruction to America’s legacy, as well. Imo, this will precipitate with their lunge towards Iran, militarily. And when Bush sets course towards this next debacle, he’ll drag our democracy and our citizens down with him to the abyss of shame for generations ….with shreds of our Constitution in his jaws.
Raymond Duray @ 342
Raymond, thanks for the reply. If you are still watching this thread I’d be glad to see additional sources, links, etc. This period of time that we are discussing remains very relevant and there is much to be learned. Much of my knowledge on the topic is from the below book that I read several years ago.
Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001 by Steve Coll
-ck- @ 151
The narcissism you highlight is what also motivated Saddam Hussein. He was very scared of any perceived threats to his well being, especially his political standing. Thus he could forced to act on his own inhibitions against his best interests at the drop of a hat.
Ambassador Wilson mentioned this in interviews, linked to the pages of TPM that contain Marshall’s interviews available at The Politics of Truth, web page.
The overt calling out of a bully like Saddam and his bluff stakes by Wilson during the first Gulf War shows how well you could determine reactionaries based on their own underlying weaknesses.
For years Saddam lost interactive effectiveness within his country as a result of such inadequacy. Factions, rivals, possible coup splinters were what he perceived legitimate levers of society and government to be at times. So he created enemies where he could of had allies, internally.
These people were later backed by outsiders, but the traction these efforts gained were the result of narcissistic leadership inflaming and inspiring said reactions.
Thus after 9-11 Bush says “with us or with the terrorists” to codify just such a mindset, catered to his own sense of the need to use locker room talk and cowboy bravado to mask policy shortcomings.
Bush had the world ready to help America, his personality was catered to by his handlers, Cheney allowed that to happen for different control methods. His selfishness in business and profiteering eliminated true diverse coalition building to limit America’s risk and maximize the odds for success. His was goal driven, profit and control of targeted fiscal outcome shaped Cheney’s aim. He would shoot opponents (and friends) in the face and shape narratives through control of media, of military, and of torture. Bush’s stance remained the result of his own Oedipal desires to prove self in one upmanship of dad’s handlers, like James Baker, and their caution in the winds of international and regional consensus. They surrendered the shot for Bush Sr to grab two terms in Dubya’s view. Unfortunately it so happened almost every tactic employed for control motifs of Cheney catered to the same sense of being an electoral and rhetorical bully that feeds Bush’s sense of purpose in campaigning.
The biggest part of the tragedy is what this ends as, for a lame duck has no reason to stay in such campaigning modes, and can change things that needs be addressed for the good of government than for expedient results.
This is being abandoned though, the one person most likely able to change this now is Sec.Rice, and she is finding the same wall by Cheney for control that others were forced to abide by.
Iran is the hedge item, she can bring the East and West together via Iran, stabilize the risk of energy futures for the world, and fund a new era of growth on all fronts. Cheney wants war, ten dollar a gallon gas, the coming collapse it will drive on the world economy so he can continue hedge management and predatory purchase of market share. He’s the Monopoly guy, duck tail suits for duck pick hunters. Throwing around bank notes like insults in the Senate chambers, because he can. That continues to feed the sensibilities, or rather lack thereof, of Dubya.
The thing feeds on itself, the thing speaks for itself. Res ipsa los loquitor.
This was an amazing discussion and I’m honored to be in the same place with so many brilliant thinkers and writers. Thank you all so much for the much needed light and sanity you bring to the world.
For those who are interested, Wes Clark and VoteVets have a petition/website Stop Iran War.
Please don’t be put off by the opening page, which is a petition to bush — there are several useful tools: send a message to Congress, write your local newspaper (at the “Take Action” link), the “Supplies” link provides printable signs, doorhangers, t-shirt transfers, and petitions you can carry with to gather signatures. At the “Grassroots” link, you can order Stop Iran War Buttons — for FREE, thanks to a couple creative and industrous Clarkies.
Please take a few moments to check it out. The more of us speaking out, the better chance we will be heard.
George @ 80
Sure, don’t give government too much power. Choose wisely what you would have government be able to do, because it will do that and more you probably don’t want.
Personally, I don’t think Jefferson was exactly right. You should be free. But you can’t be allowed to let your factory’s pollution kill the air and water. A little less liberty for the factory owner means more life for everyone else. What’s wrong with that balance?
Start with a substrate of basic Freedom (Courts, Civil Rights Law, Property Law, Contract Law) add a layer of Liberal Restraint which individuals can’t manage by themselves (Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, Product Safety, Child Labor Law, etc.). That gives you the so-called Free enterprise of Republicans and part of the Liberal New Deal. After that you have to be very careful to avoid too much ’safety net’ because that way leads to Socialism and too much interference of Government in the People’s lives. Government should govern, not control or own or coerce or force.
Beyond this there is government activism of several types. The Safety Net helps people as individuals and families. The National Guard and FEMA fall into that category as easily as Social Security or Legal Aid or Farm Bureaus.
Promoting Commerce has been a big topic of debate since the Great Depression. But, I can’t imagine a single Conservative today who would oppose that Commie idea. Strange how times change. Still, it should be approached with great hesitation. Government involvement in the private sector should govern and assist, but not control or give special favors.
Perhaps one of the biggest things political leaders are needed to do is to shape the superstructure of the Law to allow for change in the commercial world and to protect people as change occurs.
The world has changed rather quickly and dramatically since the formation of America. Fortunately our political system has accommodated that pretty well.
Where would Jefferson ‘be’ in today’s world? Who knows? There are many ways to ensure freedom.
Zach @ 347
Raymond, thanks for the reply. If you are still watching this thread I’d be glad to see additional sources, links, etc.
We may be the only two here on this thread. Thus, I’ll be happy to continue our dialogue, although perhaps we’d be well advised to move our discussion forward to a more current thread in order to avoid the syndrome of simply talking to ourselves and failing to effect any community change.
That said, thanks for the Coll recommedation. I’ve just requested it from my library. I am so busy that it’s hard to keep up with everything, but I think you’ve finally convinced me to put this one on my list.
As to a follow-up on “Charlie Wilson’s War” I’d certainly recommend that you read Seymour Hersh’s remarkable revelation about the escape from Kunduz of thousands of “enemy combatants” in November, 2001 at the behest of the upper echelon of U.S. military control.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HER206A.html
I have suffered a hard drive crash and lost about 2 Mb of citations (bookmarks) recently so I will tell you that the Taliban, al Qaeda and Pak-ISI fighters who were spared in the Kunduz Airlift were next spotted in the Kashmir in January, 2002 where they spearheaded the largest border incidents in decades, creating a near-nuclear confrontation between Pakistan and the intolerably right-wing ultranationalist Hindu government of India at the time. And qui bono? (Who benefits?) you might ask? Well, there are unconfirmed reports of battalions of American military contractor sales forces swarming over the capitols of Islamabad and New Delhi at the time.
Is al Qaeda the most useful tool the militarists have in their kit since the old U.S.S.R. went kaput? Indeed it seems so.
So, how do we get some mirth out of all this madness? One suggestion I might make to you is the delightfully over-the-top send-up “Outsourced” by Raelynn Hillhouse. Read her very informative blog here: http://www.thespywhobilledme.com/
“Outsourced” takes a known premise, that the C.I.A. and the D.O.D. are at war with each other and creates a perfect satire that leaves everyone looking like a damn fool, a delirious knave or a deviant demigod. Good stuff, Maynard.
***
But let’s not just pick on the CIA and the DoD. No, that wouldn’t be fair. Let’s make note that the NSA no longer seems able to calculate how much electricity it needs to provide for. Pretty basic math, in my humble opinion as a retired electrical contractor. Why is the NSA so lame? http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/06/24/1718214.shtml
Oh… never mind. I recall now. The idea with corruption is to rip off the taxpayer, not to make sense.
Still seeking sanity, Ray
I always arrive at these things just as everyone else is leaving. It’s an aphorism that you can always tell the host of a cocktail party because he’s the only one still there after the booze runs out. That’s when I walk in all thirsty.
First, thanks Glenn, for your insights here and on Salon, and for your book, which I’ve pre-ordered and am looking forward to.
Second, as tempting as impeachment would be, there’s a serious question. Sometimes people, even those who hate the status quo, will fight like cornered badgers if their home turf is attacked from outside. Iraq has taught us this bitter lesson.
Do we want to spur the Republicans into doing the same thing? They are now totally demoralized and depressed, but an attack on their already wounded leader might be the one thing that could rouse and rally them. Do we want that? Might it be better to just let Bush limp to the finish line while his party sinks deeper into its funk?
That’s risky, yes, so long as he still holds presidential power and command of the military. But it might be more so if he panics under pressure.
Yes, I’d like to see him and his gang in the dock, but the statute of limitations won’t run out on 1/20/09. Especially if his successor is a Democrat.
Putting on Moderator Hat:
Personal attacks are not permitted. Civil disagreement is encouraged. Threads are kept open for 24 hours to allow discussions to continue even though there is a new post up.
Comments will be pulled that attack or belittle others on the thread. The fact that one uses a nom-de-blog is not justification for belittling their comment.
Scarecrow @ 184
just want to repeat this…
I do believe Glenn can type faster that I can read