Doesn’t anybody here want to end this war? That was the question Matt Yglesias asked on Monday:
That we can be in the midst of a primary campaign during which the candidates are supposedly looking to “pander” to the dread damn dirty hippies of the base and yet none of the front-running candidates will make a clear promise to leave Iraq and attack his or her rivals for failing to do the same is rather astounding.
This was in response to a comment by Atrios, who replied shortly afterward:
. . . “residual force” isn’t just a grand idea favored by press wankers, but also many presidential candidates. Without getting into the minutiae there is a difference between a residual force in neighboring relatively friendly countries (Kuwait) and a residual force sitting in the middle of the crossfire, but nonetheless the idea that we need to be sitting there just in case is a widely embraced idea.
. . . I would like the people who advocate this 50,000 forever model to actually spend a few seconds thinking about just what they imagine those troops spending their days doing.
To be fair, though, the New York Times ran an interview-based article on Hillary Clinton a few months ago in which she did exactly that:
In the interview, she suggested that it was likely that the fighting among the Iraqis would continue for some time. In broad terms, her strategy is to abandon the American military effort to stop the sectarian violence and to focus instead on trying to prevent the strife from spreading throughout the region by shrinking and rearranging American troop deployments within Iraq.
. . . “We would not be doing patrols,” she added. “We would not be kicking in doors. We would not be trying to insert ourselves in the middle between the various Shiite and Sunni factions. I do not think that’s a smart or achievable mission for American forces.”
And, as it happens, on Tuesday all three candidates took turns making similar arguments (helpfully documented, with video excerpts, by TPM Cafe). Conceptually, Edwards and Obama came from the same angle as Clinton — that while the U.S. cannot remain in the middle of Iraq’s civil war, we have an interest in helping prevent the one catastrophe that is still avoidable: a regional war where Turkey, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other countries in the Middle East involve themselves directly as a way to influence who wins the power struggle inside Iraq.
There are valid reasons to favor a 100% withdrawal (which I’ll get to in a moment), but it’s important to recognize that Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are neither crazy nor victims of neocon mind control for leaving the door open to a “residual force.” Indeed, the fact that they cling to these stands despite the clear 2008-primary benefits of taking a stronger antiwar stance should be taken as a sign that they really do believe what they’re saying, and don’t want to make a commitment now they might have to renege on in the White House in 2009.
The simple truth is that, probably as a conscious Bush/Cheney fallback strategy, Iraq has no meaningful air force or other infrastructure for protecting its borders. So if, after a complete U.S. withdrawal, Turkey decided it might be a good idea to grind Kurdistan into a fine powder, they might just take a swing at it. And while it’s far too late to keep Iran from a major role in a post-occupation Iraq, it’s not clear that Saudi Arabia and other neighboring Sunni countries are willing to accept that fait accompli. So all the ingredients for a regional war are there, unless someone is willing to set up an unofficial fence around the Iraqi abyss until the dust, smoke, and blood of the factional infighting has settled.
The only remotely accurate analogy between the situation in Iraq and our longstanding presence in South Korea is that a tripwire of U.S. forces on Iraq’s borders could be an effective deterrent to a wider catastrophe, just as it’s prevented war between Pyongyang and Seoul. Then again, though, it might not — and this is the reality that Edwards, Obama, and Clinton need to face.
After all, we’ve long since lost our ability to impose our will on Iraq or the region (though that hasn’t seeped into Dick Cheney’s brain yet). So any residual presence will need to depend on establishing a non-intervention agreement among Iraq’s neighbors that we can then police… and since this relies on Turkey reconciling itself to Kurdistan’s existence, and Saudi Arabia facing the reality that Iraq’s Shiite majority will govern the country, no such agreement may be possible. Similarly, if our remaining troops become targets for Iraqi factions wanting to draw us back into the fray, a full withdrawal is inevitable — the American public won’t stand for an endless stream of coffins flying back to the States, no matter what the candidates say now.
Also, however morally compelling it might be to try to prevent the worst from happening, it’s already a given that our troops will have no choice but to stand aside and watch the escalating carnage whenever we pull our troops back, either completely or partially. So very painful choices are going to have to be made in any event.
The way that Obama, Edwards, and Clinton ought to frame their stances, to avoid boxing themselves in on either side, is not by promising to keep troops in Iraq or to take all of them out. Rather (as I’ve been trying to say for two years now), we need to reinstate the Powell Doctrine, which used to be the essential contract between our government and a volunteer military. If there’s a mission that we can be essentially certain of accomplishing with minimal casualties — and clear ground rules for when that situation no longer holds — then I’m fine with some troops remaining in Iraq. If not, then every last one should come home. That’s a simple standard I think voters across the political spectrum will find easy to grasp.
Related posts:
- More Troops for Afghanistan? Faster Withdrawal from Iraq?
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Report Confirms Poor Electrical Work by KBR Endangers US Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan
- The End of the Delusion in Iraq
- Remember Iraq or Ray Odierno is Still Wrong





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Hey Swopa!
Stupidity. Just pure, unadulterated stupidity put us into Iraq in the first place and keeps us there beyond all evidence of how our presence exacerbates the bad situation and makes it worse.
Let me be crystal clear on this. I want out of Iraq now. Completely out. This is why I voted Democratic last November. Democrats. What part of this do you not understand?
IT’S NOT A WAR IT’S AN OCCUPATION
This is an important point. Occupations cannot be won, only ended. And you go to war for entirely different reasons than you conduct an occupation. We REALLY need to stay on-message about referring to our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan as Mid-East occupations, because that’s what they are.
Calling these occupations “wars” lends them a moral weight and legitimacy that they do not deserve, against which any opposition is at an increased disadvantage. You can be a traitor for not supporting your country in war – not so much when it’s an occupation.
So… why does any candidate support the continued occupation of two Mideast countries? What do we gain from occupying Iraq and Afghanistan? What does the occupation of these two countries cost us?
We pulled out of Nam. I’m fed up with business in Iraq. And with my party.
dakine01 @ 5
Or maybe it is stupidity and most of the candidates are bought and paid for by Big Oil.
Democrats. Are you trying to force me to stay home on election day, 2008?
If someone could truly explain the mission in iraq, you know, in complete sentences that infer thinking and strategy and #### like that, then I would listen. I may not change my mind, but I would be hopeful that someone somewhere in our government is actually acting in a responsible manner.
Slogans like “win the peace” “protect iraqi people” “fight against evil” is not a plan or a strategy or a goal. It’s bullshit.
Our govt is playing pretty fast and loose other people’s lives (US and Iraqi). Let’s embed our leaders in with some troops to help them with their decidering.
Do you think big oil influences the DLC?
Unless Kucinich is elected, there will always be a number of U.S. troops and/or advisors in Iraq, unless Iraq expells the U.S. completely.
Well Swopa, I was sailing along with you (grumbling) and you had to whack me with the Powell Doctoring… You can’t buy something until you get the bull out of the China Shop… We are the bull. And how many times should we pay for something before we get the fact the item is not for sale, but the shop will keep taking your money.
Israeli General Oded Tira said,
“We must turn to Hillary Clinton … for support to attack Iran.”
Doesn’t Hillary have anyone in her circle who has studied military history and is willing to be honest? That plan of hers is a recipe for disaster. Steve Gilliard wrote quite a bit about the experience of French defeat at Dien Bien Phu. The French had a “base” there that was supplied by air only and it was isolated and crushed.
How’s this for a cheery foreshadowing of what can happen to us in Iraq, from the a military analysis:
what will they eat, sand?
this residual force will need to be supplied, those convoys will be attacked, they will need defending, so American soldiers will continue to come under fire… why?
Because a president Obama or Clinton will be afraid of going down in history as having lost Iraq, so will want to hunker down and pass the problem off to his/her successor.
As albatross said, it’s an occupation, and colonial occupations have not been very viable recently, have they?
Fewer and fewer people are deceiving themselves that the Democratic Party will do anything to really end the illegal, immoral, costly, destructive and useless occupation… so it’s time to start allowing discussion of alternatives if you beleive in the cause of peace, rather than just rooting for the (D) team to win.
From here on in for me it’s the Dems election to lose. The message is that America is fed up with Congress and the the prez.
I’m with Oklahoma Kiddo. It is beyond unconscionable to let one more of
our soldiers die in Iraq. What part of bring them home is so hard to understand?
Something I have never seen addressed is the future monetary costs of this occupation. We see what it has cost us so far, but what will the tab be for endless occupation? We have almost 9 trillion dollars in debt right now. Can we just keep borrowing and borrowing? Will it matter that our debt be 50 trillion dollars?100 trillion dollars? Can we just keep this going on indefinitely?
It may sound cold to talk about the financial ramifications of the war when there is such a high humanitarian cost to it, but it does need to be addressed. Doesn’t it?
“…all the ingredients for a regional war are there…” Yes, I agree, and the candidates must address how that eventuality could be avoided.
Mary McCurnin @ 9
I think you’re both right on the money. ;0)
fwiw, here are relevant parts of a letter I received today from Jim Webb in reponse to my inquiry about his vote on the supplemental:
I think the bottom line is that the military doesn’t know how to get out. If the order came to leave today..it would take, best estimate, thirteen months to extract people and equipment. That is if no one is shooting at the trucks driving down the single road to Kuwait. (Good luck with that hypothesis). What a fucking mess and it is going to get a lot worse.
i think they are addicted to the imperial world view. at this moment i do not trust virtually any of the dems to get us out of iraq – and i’m not just refering to the presidential front runners… today we had levin’s bs (thank you feingold for an awesome smack down)
and yesterday, in the house, via bernhard at moon of alabama, this important story about the house of representatives moving us closer to war with iran with yesterday’s vote on h.con.r.21.
the resolution begins:
but juan cole has said this charge isn’t correct.
the resolution had 103 co-sponsors. virtually the entire house voted for it, with only kucinich and paul voting against it. pelosi voted for it , mcgovern voted for it.
Albatross @ 7
You’re right. Afghanistan was a War, although a rather one-sided war. Iraq was a naked imperialist conquest, followed by an occupation.
BTW, Bush likes to talk about how we’re spreading Democracy throughout the world. But have you taken a look at our main allies in Bush’s Favorites?
*Pakistan
*Egypt
*Russia
*Iraq
These are mostly fake democracies: They have the trappings of democracy, without much of the substance. Except for Iraq, they’re all essentially dictatorships.
Bob in HI
There’s only one thing that impacts me more than mentioning Hillary and Obama. That’s showing me pictures of them.
This “domino theory” of Iraq as a failed state is also proven by history to be an imaginary bogeyman. it’s what drew us into the Vietnam War, where we were defeated. When the British were driven from Iraq it didn’t collapse. Somalia has been without a functioning government for over a decade, there’s no wave of evil moving through Africa (not any worse than there always is, sadly).
I’d say the motivations, whether vocalized or not, for thinking we need to “protect” Iraq and the region is all for the oil, primarily Saudi Arabia. How nice we’re providing the army for the filthy rich Saudi royal family. It’s a short-sighted lack of imagination by these candidates to desperately cling to the status quo even after Bush and the neocons destroyed the region.
Bob Schacht @ 25
and then there are the bush family’s BFFs the Saudis, who are an unabashed dictatorship.
Ask yourself. Who’s really spliting the Democratic Party. Is it Dodd, Biden, Richardson, Kucinich or a couple of others? Or is it Obama and Hillary?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
Big everthing influences the DLC. That’s why the netroots are in conflict with the DLC. The DLC was formed before Howard Dean showed that you could raise significant funding from the grassroots. The DLC was founded on the proposition that you could live on Big Money without being beholden to it. Fat Chance.
Bob in HI
Steve @ 23
Withdrawal to Secure Positions Under Enemy Fire. For thirteen wonderful months!
What’s behind door number 2, bob? I don’t think I like door number 1.
Gore.
oddmommy @ 28
a Theocratic Dictatorship, please note. Just not Judeo Christian.
All well and good, Swopa. And thanks for rounding all that up.
But let’s ask a few questions about “residual”, shall we?
Will the residue be staying in any of the permanent bases, or will they be in Kuwait and the (mostly) Kurdish north? Because, they can just as easily intimidate (and that IS what we’re talking about) Iran or Syria or Turkey from there, as they could from the Fort Apache-cum-Dien-Bien-Phu’s.
In fact, they could probably do a lot of it, from the carriers.
Plus, it’s going to take a lot of “residue” to keep the green zone functioning as the “seat of government” for the Iraqi parliament, and as the world’s largest CIA station.
Bob Schacht @ 31
Good. ;0)
puppethead @ 15
My guess is that everyone knows that the residual force, fortified embassy and bases is bullshit. We are loosing militarily now, even with reinforcements, a residual force of 50k will be creamed without using air cover. The problem is that the American public has been feed propaganda for so long that they are not ready for reality. Right now, a candidate who tells the truth can’t be elected. Hopefully that will change; but change will be driven by increasing US dead.
The parallel to Korea might be legitimate, if all you are talking about is the presence of US troops in a foreign country over a period of decades. When one considers the mission of the US forces in Korea, however, the analogy breaks down.
Fast.
In Korea, the US forces stand on a border with a friendly host nation to the south and a hostile nation to the north. Their mission is deterrence: if the North tries to threaten the South militarily, they know they have to threaten the much larger and more powerful US as well.
In Iraq, on the other hand, the US forces are in the middle of neutral-to-hostile territory. Even if their mission were to become that “trip wire” mentioned in the post above, they would still have to be guarding their flanks and rear.
At the DMZ in Korea, the only direction the US forces need to worry about watching is North. If the US forces in Iraq were to try looking only toward Iran, they’ll end up dead.
Fast.
Politicians: make your case for or against keeping troops in Iraq based on their mission, not on misconstrued historical analogies.
this is a worthwhile thing to do… but, it can’t be us. we have lost all legitimacy to act in the region. no one will believe we’re not there for our own purposes to control the oil.
maybe we could contribute in some other way… but it can’t be our mission and it can’t be directed/controlled by us.
that the majority of our party pols (contrary to the people) don’t get this, and instead hang on to their imperial ambitions is profoundly wrong.
The Democratic Party is trying to put me into a straight jacket. What’s next. Thorazine?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 33
I can’t heeeeeaaaaaar you.
This is important because the “interests in the region” always come back to oil. My question is this: given the diminishing production of the major Saudi oil fields, is it a feasible question to ask whether continued US occupation of Iraq is in essence a “service” to the Saudi royal family so that they are in position to grab Iraq oil by some means (war, terrorism, bribes, purchases and corporate deals – oh and officially – diplomacy)?
How do the people get the elected representatives in the legislative branch to do the will of the people?
What exactly would a residual force do then that 160,000 troops are not able to do now?
I can not bring myself to vote for another individual who will not promise to leave Iraq completely. Richardson and Kuchinich are the only two who’ve made that clear at this point.
Steve @ 23
Whose best estimate? Has the Pentagon even tried to plan an end to this occupation? Does any one know?
I’ll offer some random thoughts here.
1. If we vacate ground forces, remember, we still own the air. This means:
a. if Iran masses at the Iraq border, we will annihilate their forces swiftly.
b. same can be said of the Saudis, if they try to invade….same as well for Turkey.
2. We’ll probably need some type of garrison for the embassy, but a small one.
3. Al queda won’t be able to turn Iraq into a huge training facility. Remember, we’ll still own the air. Training camps will be spotted, and creamed.
4. Al queda WILL be present, to some extent, in Iraq. The question would be what danger do they pose to USA? In my opinion….little.
5. Iraq will become a bloodbath….what’s new?
6. If we must have a base, I’d suggest one up in Kurd-land. It’s relatively peaceful up there, and we can also keep a sharp eye on the Kurd-Turkey border mischief.
7. And, the political angle: in this case, the American political angle. Bear in mind, for better or worse, the Israelis freak over Iraq. And so the Israelis send forth their minions (can you spell “Lieberman”?) to urge us all, including various presidential candidates, to STAY in Iraq. Iraq maybe poses a security threat to Israel. But I have my doubts as to whether even a chaotic Iraq threatens USA national security.
How any, or all of the above fits in with the Swopa article I’ll leave up to others.
Ghostman
Alfred Kelgarries @ 32
I think the thing we have to get used to is that there will be no good ending to this mess. What’s behind door number 2 is just as bad as what’s beyond door number 1, only different.
The Republican talking point is to build up just how horrible things would be if we “cut and run.” This is just exactly what the proponents of War in Vietnam said. Remember the “Domino theory”? Well, it didn’t happen. We must constantly shoot down the Middle Eastern domino theories as nothing more than wild speculation.
This has been a slow-motion train wreck that has been unfolding for about 3 years. It began when the UN decided to pull its mission out of Baghdad for security reasons (and it started then because of prior idiotic decisions). But most people haven’t paid much attention to the inevitable train wreck because (a) BushCo did everything they could to hide it from view, and (b) BushCo kept saying, “Look! Over there! Shiny Object! Isn’t that shiny object interesting!!!” …and the MSM has compliantly been herded, hither and thither, ignoring the impending disaster.
I think that one of the reasons that there is so much public support now for getting out of Iraq ASAP is that the public realizes, at least unconsciously, that we just need to cut our losses and get out.
And in the background you can hear the Bush spin doctors trying to dumb down what “win” means.
Bob in HI
whatever happened to rallying around a standard-bearer? lead, please, Dems or get the F*CK out of the way.
Can someone set me straight? How come we pulled out of Vietnam just fine, but the military can’t figure out how to pull out of Iraq? And not incidentally, I’ve heard the Iraq and Nam situations are not comparable bit.
Albatross @ 7
Amen. And I’ll raise you a Holy Ghost.
We leave when the oil runs out.
TiredFed @ 47
;0)
Even if they try to pull out of Baghdad, where are they going to go, Kuwait?
It would take some serious carpet bombing just for them to get back to the airport.
Steve G had a good post on this a while back, our people are FUBAR wrt moving in and out and on top of that, they recently bombed more bridges, effectively cutting them off.
It is going to be very, very ugly.
I am a total peacenik and it is for this reason that I would support such an action. There may be things I do not know or understand about our presence in kosovo but it seems that B.C did a pretty good job of helping and not making us the enemy or the center of attention. If that doesn’t work to save lives, then we must leave.
punaise @ 41
Say it Loud and Say it Proud
punaise @ 41
;0)
SeamusD @ 44
I think I first saw a similar number posted by Gilliard. I heard the thirteen month from Tom Ricks on NPR a few days ago. That number was based on the number of convoys per day that could move all of the stuff and people, under ideal conditions.
SeamusD @ 42
I don’t see evidence of any such planning. The mega-embassy and the mega-bases are intended to be survivable enclaves where we bivouac, supplied by road if possible and by air if not. We keep from 40K to 80K troops in the enclaves, with basic firepower, artillery, humvees, small tank detachments, and of course helos and warthogs and other aircraft. We position the heavy armor in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia along with rotating deployments of NG (all the forces in Iraq proper will be full time servicepoeple, requiring either major enlistment incentives or some form of draft.) The northern base is to prevent Turkey from getting frisky with the Kurds, the southern bases do the same for Iran, and the Baghdad Embassy and last base do the same for SA if anything goes wrong. Then we let the shia more or less exterminate the sunni, and they take over BD and southern iraq, the kurds get the north. SA is allowed to annex most of Anbar and whatever else it needs to provide border security for its territory. Eventually Chalabi can emerge from the shadows and replace saddam as a “benevolent dictator” backed by our armed forces. Oil begins to flow again, with the appropriate Production Sharing Agreements in place with the Big 5. QED.
Now let’s watch and see how close my prediction is to what happens…
punaise @ 40
Why is it that when I read that, it always sounds like Tim Duncan of the San Antonio Spurs in an ad from a year ago? I can’t even remember what the ad was about, but the ad plotline had something to do with Duncan’s contract renewal (but that’s not what the ad was supposed to be “about”. I don’t remember what product we were supposed to buy.) Another part of that ad featured Duncan with his hands over his ears, saying “La-la-la-la” over and over.
Bob in HI
Nader says on Hardball about Bloomberg, “more voices, more choices”. How do I argue w/that?
TiredFed @ 46
What TiredFed said.
the thing i find so distressing is that i want to DO something about ending the iraq occupation and preventing an attack on iran.
… and i’d prefer to act via electoral politics. but, right now i don’t see how.
last year there was lamont’s campaign.
where to put my energy now? back to the street?
Albatross @ 7
Nice shot! All net. A three pointer and from way behind the line.
Out now. Out completely. No compromise. No bullshit. That, too, is why I voted Democrat in 2006. That’s why I spent a couple thousand dollars on candidates suggested by this site, Atrios and others. Right now, my checkbook is closed and I have nothing but disgust for the whole thing.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 55
Its called “Split The Vote”. The Rethugs are toast (even Novakula writes about it) so the only way they can win is to siphon off a whole lotta people like yourself and myself who are just disgusted at the current dem crop of candidates. Problem it, all it does is give the Electoral votes to the rethugs.
What we need is for bloomberg to be the DEM nominee. That would shake things up nicely!
Ian @ 61
Word, word, and WORD!
Alfred Kelgarries @ 55
I agree that that is the real plan and it will work as well as it did for the French in Indochina.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
Because we did NOT pull out of Vietnam just fine. Don’t you remember the footage of helicopters over the US embassy in Saigon, with people hanging on for dear life so as not to get left behind? That was a humiliating image, and one that Al Qaeda is eagerly hoping to repeat.
Of course, it turned out that the Domino Theory was bogus, so the ending wasn’t as bad as feared, but the “evacuation” of South Vietnam was nothing short of humiliating. And no General wants that to happen on his watch.
Bob in HI
[dear mods/techs - what ever you just did, thank you… refresh comments and preview comments is now working without hanging for me.]
Elliott @ 51
GORE!
there.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 63
That’s interesting. But I am a Gore fan. Perhaps Gore/Bloomberg?
OK, I see I have to do some major correcting here.
Swopa, things do not seep into Cheney’s brain. They seep out of it.
On a more serious note, and with a regard to force withdrawal, this should be coordinated with the Iraqi government. Doesn’t mean it will happen but the effort should be made to reduce power vacuums. Whatever happens some American forces will and should remain in the Gulf area (although not necessarily in Iraq). This would include countries like Bahrain, Qatar, the UAE, and Oman where we already have agreements of various kinds. American special forces probably could operate out of Jordan, and some limited cooperation with Saudi Arabia is also possible.
Within Iraq, things are very dicey. It all depends on what the mission is.
Training is something of a joke, but if it were to be done, it could be done from bases in the relatively safe Kurdistan or camps near Kuwait.
Placing limits on the civil war? Again very hard to do, especially because the central government would have to give permission and it might be deeply involved in the killing.
Going after al Qaeda? Possible but difficult. It could be done out country from Jordan or Kuwait with special forces or in country from Kurdistan or possibly the South. The trick would be to work out an agreement with the central government on strikes and that might be really, really difficult.
There are lots and lots of layers to this problem. The policy has failed. Bush’s war has failed. What is left is to leave. There are adult ways of doing this and dealing with whatever nasty situations develop. It won’t be pretty but it is in our nation’s interests.
Is anyone else having problems today with wordpress? i.e. am writing this comment refresh has disappeared. Oh and one last thing
ReElect President Al Gore in 2008. Accept no substitute. ;~)
Apart from the blood and horror, the IEDs and suicide bombers, the blown-up bridges and attacks on the green zone, the treatment of Iraqis in Abu Garaib and in their own homes, you know what I think would be almost as damaging for our troops? The miserable and unending summer heat they have to endure in their uniforms, body armor and boots while carrying their equipment and rifles. I cannot imagine spending even one day in their situation.
Swopa does point out the disappointing fact that all three frontrunners are not actually anti occupation candidates.. And every time I let that sink in, its as if I have been treated with a defibrillator, by my own party.
Bob Schacht @ 66
I have forgotten nothing about Vietnam. Especially my buddies who did not return.
cathy @ 20
If my memory serves me correctly, I recall seeing that the cost of just the U.S. Embassy in Iraq would cost $1.2 billion per year.
With that kind of money in hand, we could bankroll Albatross, Webb, or Richardson as the FDL candidate.
Bustednuckles @ 49
Busted,
I remember that post of Steve’s. I wish everyone in the country could read that so people will get that this is urgent. As in, really really time-sensitive ASAP.
That’s why I’ve been so adamant about this to my rightwing acquaintances.
They have no family or friends going over there, and it’s not urgent to them.
Steve @ 62
no! it WILL work. that is the serious problem here. Indochina didn’t work because of many reasons, but the largets was the lack of effective air power. We no longer have that problem. And also, please note we now have some badass directed energy weapons of all sorts. they are funded and available in small numbers but will ramp up once the bivouacing has begun.
And there is increasing technology to take out mortar rounds mid flight and MANPADS from both aircraft and ground stations mid flight. If there is no patrolling IEDS are worthless. A grounda assault over mined borders covered from both non-lethal and lethal weapons turrets? I don’t think so.
That’s why I emphasized air supply. Once you get the THEL and other systems in to take out the MANPADS you can supply by air easily from Kuwait or even SA or Incirlik In Turkey. We could be in iraq a LONG LONG TIME in strictly military terms, unfortunately.
However, casualties will drop very very sharply once this happens. Costs will reduce some, and may be offset by payments from the Iraqi oil. But the deal-breaker is the castkets. When the jets stop flying home every week with about 40 to 80 caskets, calls to get the troops out will also drop, except for die hards liks us. Unfortunately, our political power may be limited.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 66
DING DING DING DING DING!
Get out of Iraq now. What’s the alternative? To stay there?
Hugh @ 68
i fear that an “adult” version of withdrawal will be as elusive as the “adult” version of the occupation.
sorry, that was really out of character for me. I guess I’m just getting impatient. btw, accept no substitutes.
another example of how hanging out at FDL may ultimately lead to my professional demise: I’ve taken to responding to client emails with quick, pithy, snappy, blog-comment-style missives. not sure they all appreciate the scintillating wit expressed therein.
Nader might stay out if Gore runs.
Run, Al, Run!!!!
GORE
GORE
GORE
WE NEED YOU NOW!!!
punaise @ 82
that’s funny
“it would take, best estimate, thirteen months to extract people and equipment.”
Bullshit. It’d take one month. Destroy the equipment and pull out the troops.
Where do you get these numbers? For people who don’t want to pull out?
Alfred Kelgarries @ 75
and when the next 911 happens, will we understand it as retribution for our continued presence/occupation?
there are likely to be costs (of the casket variety) – it’s just that we won’t understand why… again.
swopa, a VERY nice read..I’d like to comment on this;
you know how nicely it would serve ALL democrats and totally democralize the republicans runnig for president?
when they say we need to get out, tag this friggin war on those idiots…EVERY time
this is not “the war in Iraq”, this is “the republican war”, it’s “the corporatists war”, it’s the “war profiteers war”
they need to create the proper vernacular and pound away with it, time and time again and again…things like
“bush’s depravity”
“the diversion from the war against terrorism”
“the presidents malicous obsession which has made the fight against terrorism almost impossible to win”
“the maniacle plans of a sick fraternity to steal the treasure of Americans and the middle east”
I want to tag every referance to the war with something that describes WHO is responsible and the damage it’s done to this country
Eureka Springs @ 73
For me, not a lot different than realizing that my party’s Senators won’t back the Democratic primary winner in a North Eastern state.
punaise @ 82
That’s a scream. ;0)
Why is it that the Iraqis votes counted when it was purple finger time, and not their voices don’t matter? The people want us out and the parliament want us out.
punaise @ 82
then they are fools.
LS @ 83
You’re playing my music. ;0)
Loo Hoo. @ 87
Please do avoid all use of LOGIC when discussing the R team reasoning. Thank you.
Ghostman
Republicans endorse torturers.
Republicans are war-mongerers and war-profiteers.
Republicans don’t care about New Orleans and poor people.
Republicans endorse limiting our civil rights.
Republicans believe killing people or letting them die, is justified.
punaise @ 80
Are you saying your professional emails aren’t up to code?
Angie. Are you still out there in the ethernet somewhere? Come back.
selise @ 80
Yes, I agree. There are ways of doing these things but it won’t happen with Bush (or any of the Republicans) and I have my doubts about the Democrats, especially Hillary and Obama.
Wake the hell up people.
There is only one party here, the power and money dem/repub party. Time to find another alternative.
LS @ 83
We needed him when he was elected fair and square as well until the thugs and their whackos on the Supreme Court robbed Gore, We the People and defiled our Constitution.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 94
i miss you angie! i hope you are ok.
Peterr @ 93
with some clients it’s a matter of code e-pendants.
Repubs believe in the sanctity of life, unless you are already born and interfere with their ability to make money. If they can use you to make money, you get to live, but only ultimately on their terms and to serve their needs.
aki @ 96
i’d rather try to take back one of them. it’s just right i’m not sure how.
punaise @ 82
I even put a *g* in one! I got back a “what?”
Oil corporations will use our military to guard their oil assets and the American people will pay for it, so that we can be further gouged at the pumps. Our sons and daughters will be cannon fodder and bleed into the middle eastern deserts in order to pad the campaign funds for our representatives.
punaise;
i have lost count of the times you have made me crack up out loud, your short-hand missives are incomparable, your clients will see one side of you then,like we do, but you amuse me most when you say things like THIS:
“another example of how hanging out at FDL may ultimately lead to my professional demise: I’ve taken to responding to client emails with quick, pithy, snappy, blog-comment-style missives. not sure they all appreciate the scintillating wit expressed therein.”
i like it when you speak in long-hand. you do that equally as well.
SeamusD @ 44
Didnt Joe Sestak indicate it would take about 6 months to beat a retreat out of Iraq?
Gregor @ 105
Get the troops out and leave Blackwater over there to deal with them. They love all that shoot ‘em up stuff.
Loo Hoo. @ 102
so you probably didn’t 707 them for their deadpan reaction.
perris @ 87
Absolutely. Perfect, Perris. btw, do you live in perris, CA?
hey, dmac!
(now, back to work. really…)
selise @ 83
Okay, i’m going to be blunt here, and I apologize in advance for hurt feelings. But it is time we anti-war folk looked at some hard realities that OUR SIDE’s rhetoric is obscuring.
1) 9/11 DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE WE OCCUPY ANYTHING. It happened for three reasons:
a) We told BL we would support him to run afghanistan after the sovs were driven out. made sense at the time. But when he turned into a religious whack job, we said no thanks. He views that as a personal betrayal and has been out to even the score ever since. That and his hatred for the Saudi Kings because he aint one of them.
b) The BL family kept giving money to their son when we cut him off. That money was used to set up AQ. And bear in mind that BL initially directed AQ to overthrow the saudi royal family. While he talks of a sharia replacement, in reality it would simply switch from Al Saud to Bin Laden. Same Stuff, Different Name. So they took a risk on him.
c) Chimpy was not willing to upset his friends in the saudi system (which his family has assiduously cultivated for decades) and so did not allow searching z mass’s HD. Also, he allowed BL to evac the saudis of his family in the us right after 9/11, which is just coming out now.
BL is now cut off from his money, his ties to saudi power, and even electronic communications. We could start selling pork ribs in mecca and he couldn’t do much about it.
Will we get attacked again? OF COURSE! But it will happen because a plotter or plotters gets lucky or finds a hole in our systems (and there are FAR too many to bear thinking about. For example, note that millions of tons of deadly chemicals are shipping on rail lines every year with no security AT ALL (as proven by the grafitti). Stick a limpet mine on three tank cars of this crap set to go off as it enters DC, NYC, you name it, and the resulting casualties from just airborne CONTACT or INHALATION (milliliter amounts, less that a pinhead) can cause HUNDREDS OF FATALITIES A SECOND. The rail companys are saying “we can’t afford to secure the rail lines. yeah right.)
We will get hit again. But it won’t be because we have troops overseas. That is a neocon red herring and i’m sick of hearing it.
I’ve been pretending I haven’t read Swopa’s post even though I really did, but I don’t really want to know what Swopa is saying because I don’t want to hear what Swopa has to tell us. And he HAS to tell us. And We the People have to listen.
It is all so devastating, in every way imaginable. And it’s not my blood spilt, nor my history decimated by this careless wanton adventure in HORROR.
TiredFed @ 104
I believe he projects 10-15 months.
Ghostman
There’s a Boondocks cartoon where GW Bush discovers Colin Powell moonlighting at Pottery Barn. Dubya tries to return Iraq, Colin answers, “you broke it, you bought it”.
So, America, this mess is yours. Your diplomatic standing abroad is abysmal, but if you flee from your responsibility, it won’t get better for the next 3 decades, democratic president or not.
So, yes, it’s an occupation, but you better not chicken out. Maybe a democratic president is better on getting markers about nation building, diplomacy and stuff (ok, being better than *that* isn’t hard), but nevertheless your main job is providing a reason for unity between factions (by diplomacy *or* by being target numero uno), so a slow but constant burn doesn’t become a wildfire. Turkey attacking the Kurds might be bad. Syria collapsing under refugees (more chaos between Israel and its neighbors) or Saudi-Arabia slugging it out with Iran (helloooo, 120 bucks per barrel crude !) would be worse.
Face the music. You know, reality-based community and stuff…
LS @ 94
And they don’t give a rip about the planet.
Loo Hoo. @ 116
Or the rule of law.
Or science.
Or ethics.
Gregor @ 105
Kinda makes you want to sing “Circle of Life,” doesn’t it?
Ghostman @ 114
thanks ghost. I misremembered again.
The Republican party endorses stealing the taxpayers’ money.
why do I feel like we should be doing shots right about now?
I wanted to bring up September and Petraeus’ make or break report on progress of the surge.
There are two possibilities:
1) Petraeus will declare that progress is being made but that we need to keep high levels of troops in Iraq to keep the progress going.
2) Petraeus will declare that progress is not being made but that we must keep high levels of troops in Iraq to avoid the “dire” consequences of a “precipitate withdrawal”. (all withdrawals are by definition precipitate)
In other words, whether there is progress or not, Petraeus is going to recommend that high levels of troops be kept in Iraq. This is why I think this whole myth of Petraeus as the great general needs to be destroyed now. He isn’t. He doctors the facts. He doesn’t understand the political situation. His plan has failed. To me, that says another failed general to go with a failed President and his failed war.
Must be getting hot in the WH, since they are considering shutting down Gitmo. They want to do it ASAP. All that lawyering up trying to save their sorry butts from crimes against humanity?
Glad to see that this issue is being debated.
We aren’t getting out now- we aren’t even FIXIN to get out. We’re talkin a little about gettin out.
The next thing that might actually happen is a slow drawdown of troops- but not to zero- down under 100k perhaps.
The whole issue of whether the US should/will have a role in the security of Iraq in five years is still on the table.
Watch the oil- heard that the Iraqis finally produced an Oil sharing bill. Are there sections that open the door for foriegn investment? Why is a lead pipe a cinch?
TiredFed @ 118
Best idea I’ve heard all day. I prefer Jameson. In a glass. Nothing else.
Ghostman
Ghostman @ 125
Cuervo Gold! Mr. LS is bringing some home. Weeee…
rwcole @ 124
ever hit anyone with a lead pipe?
I have my pitbull jaws firmly locked on this torture issue, and I ain’t backin’ down.
LS @ 120
The judges are rebelling, appears to be a central reason. But bear in mind, their initial solution is to “build another prison in Afghanistan” and move the less-dangerous prisoners there. The rest will stay in gitmo and be run through the military tribunals quick whizz fast, and those found “innocent” repatriated to friendly countries who will protect their human rights. Like Poland and Romanis.
fed–Uh no- have you?
Ghostman @ 125
if you’re ever in Baltimore, I’m buying.
Marcy has a great post about torture over at NH.
rwcole @ 130
not gonna answer that one. gotta go watch KO. later.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 129
You know, they are such compassionate and thoughtful creatures.
Elliott @ 113
That is why I am beyond disgusted with Bush. He and his PNAC Platoon buddies have brought about a situation in which there isn’t so much a “good” option as there ones that are less bad than the others.
One major fear is that if we leave, Iraq’s oil facilities are destroyed in the fighting as none of the factions wants to see such prizes falling into anyone’s hands but theirs. That would cause oil to shoot up over $100 a barrel and send the world economy into a tailspin — if not a death spiral. (Of course, once Hugo Chavez gets his ultra-heavy-crude refineries up and running in the next couple of years, that’s not as big an issue, except to the people who would rather deal with corrupt Saudi capitalists than a neo-Marxist who, flaws considered, has done much more for his people than Bush has done for his.)
“some men see things as they are and ask why? I dream things that never where and ask why not?”
Gore!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
The issues you’re discussing need jaw-jaw, not war-war.
I think you’re being too generous to Clinton and crew. Yeah, maybe they favour retaining a “tripwire”, but maybe they figure that keeping a few troops in is withdrawing without “cutting and running” and they can sell it both ways.
Phoenix Woman @ 135
That’s why they want the North American Union, which they will expand southward over time. They have Chavez firmly in the crosshairs.
LS @ 131
And as further proof, once mcnulty had lied his ass off to congress today, probably perjuring himself several times, in an effort to get to be back in the loop at DOJ or something, DOJ did a nice document dump tonight. Wanna bet it’s filled with the misdeeds of Mr. McNulty?
Alfred Kelgarries @ 139
Goody, where’s the dump?
Alfred Kelgarries @ 110
i’m not worried about what motivates bin laden, i’m worried about what motivates people who are willing to die to attack us (so called “suicide terrorism”).
the only empirical data that i’m aware of on this topic comes from robert pape, university of chicago…. and his analysis show very strongly that it is the presence of combat troops.
do you have an alternative data set, or do you have an alternative analysis of his data? would love to see it.
p.s. i’ve never heard a neocon say anything of the kind, how could it be a neocon red herring? or have i missed it? if so, could you give a link?
punaise at 111 says:
“hey, dmac!
(now, back to work. really…)”
yeah, you do that…….
love ya baby!
No kidding. We invaded for the oil, and we are not leaving until its gone. Hillary will keep us there forever, just like Bush wants. Neither the DLC dems nor the GOPers are going to abandon this prize.
50,000 troops = smarter occupation, but an occupation just the same.
KO reporting that Gitmo may be closed down. Discussions tomorrow according to the AP. Bush denies this.
Alfred, it was really clear that they coached him, not outside lawyers, and he blew it a few times I think, because it was their story, not his. He seemed to have trouble keeping it straight here and there.
KO-There’s a fourth branch of Govt; ‘The Dick’!!! Bwhahaha… 8-)
Phoenix Woman @ 132
And there was a huge find somewhere yesterday, 500 million barrels IIRC. I had family on my mom’s side who were into oil in the texas panhandle, from the 40’s on. They used to talk about some oddballs in their research departments who would analyze the oil from deep wells and find living bacteria in it, that EXCRETED stuff that over time (like a century, not millions of years) turned into oil. The Finnish are still working on this and have gotten some really interesting results.
Me, i have no clue…
32ianvq sez, Get back to work punaise.
lol, I know that isn’t the right spelling, it has been awhile since ‘The Boss’ has been to the lake.
Phoenix Woman @ 135
This is highly unlikely for two reasons. The producing fields are concentrated in the Shia South and in Kurdistan, areas that are relatively safe. Also Iraq’s contribution to the world oil market is currently just a shade over 1% so its loss or partial loss would have some effect but not a large one.
LS @ 137
Offical Site.
TPMuckraker doesn’t have a comment thread up. When it goes live I’ll post it too.
Monica Goodling Document Dump
rwcole @ 122
Just out of curiosity–
Are you now, or were you ever, from East Texas?
And when you get done with something, do you “put it up”?
Bob in HI
The VP is not part of the Executive Branch or the Legislative Branch, even though VP is President of the Senate. He is a loose cannon (pun intended), and that is the 4th branch.
yellowsnapdragon @ 152
Thank you!
LS @ 143
Can you be a bit more specific? I’m really interested but I just didn’t have time to pay attention today…would like your take on it…
Hugh @ 149
When Bush drops the first bomb on Iran, $100 oil may look cheap.
TiredFed @ 131
Tired Fed I didn’t know you lived in Baltimore. I love that city – lived their twice in my youth. My Dad worked for the Sun and later we returned when he was tapped by the Maryland Academy of Science. Mother, southern to the bone, didn’t cotton to living north of the Mason Dixon line.
LS @ 120
Wonder what they plan to do with all those “worst of the worst” they keep saying can’t be released? They can’t bring them to trial in US courts, they have no evidence. They might just re-rendition them back to their favorite black holes, but that’s not a solution, it only delays the day that some of those people who are innocent start suing them for false imprisonment and human trafficking.
Turley: Thinks there was a meeting taking place that was leaked, so WH cancelled it.
Admission of a great blunder. Political rather than national security.
KO: Who has been the most adamant supporter of Gitmo?
Turley: Few people would know about the meeting, and people are now behaving like independent contractors.
KO: People say it’s inevitable. Where would the prisoners go?
Turley: 100 little Gitmos. Bush will not let these people inside a court of law. It would expose too much. Some of these people are guilty, and should have been tried in court.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 156
Before I cite what I think he said, I would like to look at the transcript. It seemed to me that he got his timeline as to being briefed about the USAs confused, and a couple of other things, but I hesitate to swear on it, because I’m no lawyer.
Loo Hoo. @ 160
We do love Turley; don’t we?
newspaperbrat @ 157
I was in Baltimore a couple of weeks ago..it was 96 degrees at Camden Yards at 8:00 PM.
SeamusD @ 159
Well, like W always says, nothing is off the table….I don’t think there is a reliable record of who they even are, so if they “disappear”, no one will really know who disappeared.
newtonusr @ 155
Hate to sound like the whiny Elliott on “Scrubs,” but whenever (including just now) I’ve tried to click on a document file from the DOJ, I get an annoying little message about how the computer “had difficulty” reading the file or some such whimpy phrase. Suggestions?
Steve @ 157
Well, yes, but we were talking about Iraq not Iran. Itaq has already been factored into oil markets and has been for some time. Iran is a whole other kettle of fish. What is important to realize is that oil markets will react very, very badly to an attack on Iran even if that attack leaves the oil fields and production intact. The markets have signaled this repeatedly over the last couple of years in response to Bush’s boneheaded saber rattling.
Somebody initiated the firings of these attorney generals. Could it have been Rove? It seems obvious to me.
Get Rove. Get him good!
Other Pat @ 165
On a Mac: hold down the OPTION key while single-clicking on each file – they’ll dload to the Desktop.
PC – ???
On KO – Schuster reporting that even though Abu blamed McNulty for being involved (right after McNulty resigned) McNulty today pointed to Abu’s other (conflicting) testimony that McNulty was not involved.
Yes, Pups. It’s either Kool-Aid, or they have something BIG on McNulty
Oklahoma kiddo @ 167
Of course, it was Rove. Where politicization of government is concerned all roads lead to Rove. Just as in foreign policy, where you hear paranoid overreaction, it’s always Cheney.
Today I like Rahm Emmanuel! He tells Cheney that if he isn’t a part of the executive branch, he should give back the salary he has received since 2001, and move out of the WH!
http://electioncentral.tpmcafe…..hite_house
Helen @ 170
Scooter got 30 months … who cares for big ? It’s the thought that it’s even possible which is so scary …
“Might”
Oh, they WILL keep the troops in Iraq. No matter what they say now, they WILL keep the troops there. They’ll pick up the terr terr fear fear banner and press on with this insanity staying on the neocon course. You can bet on it.
KO teasing about the Billo / Glen Beck battle. Huh? I have no idea what’s going on, but clearly it’s the stupid leading the stupid. Awesome. TRex could snark on this MAJOR.
selise @ 138
selise, i’m sorry if I sound grumpy. Hamas just killed three of my company’s people in Gaza, execution style, because we wouldn’t pay the b*st*rds half a million dollars to ransom them. So I’m a wee mite annoyed right now. The sweet little F*ck*rs even sent us the video of the killings. One of these days…
Now back to your post…
I am well aware that many people overseas SAY they want to attack us because we are over there. Almost one third of americans say Iraq was DIRECTLY INVOLVED in 9/11. Their elites do NOT want those people focussing on the fact that the problems of the moslem street are largely caused by their own incompetent, corrupt governments (and AFAIK they are ALL that was to some degree, even Turkey). So they finance “terrorists” to tell the people the arabic version of Faux News, and they believe it. Doesn’t make it true, tho.
I judge by results only. I don’t give a good hoot how badly the arab street wants to get on planes and come over here and blow up our shopping malls. I DO care about whether they can actually do it. So far, they haven’t and I don’t see that changing. Why? No major government, and no major terrorist organization, will risk it. And as proof. let’s look at the two major attacks in the west that succeeded since 9/11, Madrid and London.
IN BOTH CASES the attacks were carried out by HOME GROWN terrorists who may have SAID they were avenging western policies in the mideast, but in all likelihood they were acting on the new jihadism that is sweeping muslim communities every where else in the world. Same in Britain. Local extremists got lucky. If there wasn’t a western troop east of gibraltar these losers would have simply used a different excuse like “suffering of the palestinian people” or something. They do their terror for their own personal reasons, not because of ANYTHING we do.
What is telling is that in American, the muslim communities show no clear signs of jihadism. The bottom feeders that the various arrests have netted are jokes in every sense. This is to me a major point which WE MUST STUDY to bring an end to jihadism in the west. Because THAT is our achilles heel. The rage of the arab street simply can’t effective reach us (or we would all long since be dead.)
And I apologize for the neocon reference, I meant isolationist. There are isolationsists on both sides of this debate. I ain’t one of them. We HAVE to do stuff overseas, and coddling the sensibilities of people who have been killing EACH OTHER for over a thousand years doesn’t ring quite true to me. We MUST treat them humanely and lawfully and with respect. Whether they choose to project their issues onto us is something we simply can’t worry about.
KO- Cheney is a ‘Rogue Nation’!!! Yee-Haw!!!
Loo Hoo. @ 172
This assertion of Cheney goes a long way in showing how deeply and profoundly divorced from reality and accountability he is. It made my scandals list at item 196. Also someone mentioned torture above and I have a few timelines on it in items 194 and 195. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
Other Pat @ 162
You probably need the acrobat reader, those are PDF documents. Go here and pick based on your os and pc: Acrobat Link At Adobe.
Bob
Lived in Dallas and had a weekend place out east. “fixin to” was one of the expressions that has stuck with me. Always made me giggle.
Helen @ 169
It could be McNulty and farm animals but more likely is if he wants wing-nut welfare he will be a good boy.
Other Pat @ 165
I’m using a MacBook which sometimes gives me problems but I;m having no trouble with this. I tried it on my PC-based laptop and there’s no trouble there either.
Try emptying your cache.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 179
I love FDL readers/particpants/posters . . . um, y’know — pups. Thanks for the help.
It’s probably no longer important, but I was pleased to see a new low in Bush approval ratings- I LOVE records and he’s setting new ones every day..26%- Lowest so far– still plenty of air under him the way I see it!!
Steve @ 181
I agree. Within the first two minutes of his testimony, it became clear that “rocking the boat” is not in the McNulty lexicon but “the gravy train” certainly is.
Steve @ 55
I miss Gilliard every day.
Steve @ 181
But why did he initially strike out at Monica? Was he not thinking about the wing-nut welfare then? It seems he has totally changed his tune. To the extent that he didn’t seem to really care that they took all his hiring and firing power away.
Hi Helen! Long time.
Other Pat @ 180
My privilege. See above post for reason for grumpiness tonight, but I REALLY NEED THE LAKE right now. My boss is taking this even harder than I am and so I have to be strong for him (he’s in Turkey right now, blessed be satellite phones…)
rwcole @ 184
Unfortunately, the media are dyslexic and they see and act like his JAR is 62%.
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/…..t_26_t.php
Link to a thoroughly delightful graph on Bush Job Appoval
Kyle Sampson was apparently fond of referring to Bradley Schlozman as “the Schloz”.
The Schlozinator!
Breaking:
Fuel Emissions Legislation Moves Forward!
http://thinkprogress.org/feinstein-release/
Loo Hoo. @ 188
Hi Loo Hoo – nice to see you. I am mostly here during the day. Sleeping during Late Night. Although I read Late night the next morning and am always an sorry that I was not there.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 174 –
my condolences on the deaths of your colleagues.
pape doesn’t study the “arab street”, he studies successful suicide attackers.
madrid and london were part of coordinated campaign – for which the strategy was published by AQ (the planning document was found by norwegian intelligence prior to these attacks).
seriously recommend pape’s work, perhaps when the issues isn’t so raw. the results are perhaps counter-intuitive… which makes it, imo, all the more important to consider.
ALFRED!!! How horrifying!!
“selise, i’m sorry if I sound grumpy. Hamas just killed three of my company’s people in Gaza, execution style, because we wouldn’t pay the b*st*rds half a million dollars to ransom them. So I’m a wee mite annoyed right now. The sweet little F*ck*rs even sent us the video of the killings. One of these days…”
We need the Democrats in, however flawed…because the Republicans are so much worse. But the Dems aren’t good enough, which is why WE THE PEOPLE will need to keep the pressure on until:
1. All of our troops are pulled out of the deadly quagmire of Iraq.
2. We have healthcare for all Americans…like a civilized country in the 21st century should have.
3. Habeas corpus and ALL of our unalienable rights are fully restored, and the criminals who violated are imprisoned for their crimes. Yes, the criminals in high places, not just the lower lackeys. (Bush, Cheney, Gonzo, etc.)
4. The government re-commits itself to the principles of the Declaration…honoring and protecting the rights of WE THE PEOPLE…and the Constitution, which our government officials are sworn to protect, but never do.
Helen @ 187
Some one had a come to Jeebus talk with McNulty.
selise @ 192
Thank you. I will when I have a moment, it does contradict my own views, but so what? if you’re never wrong, you aren’t getting good feedback. (Rule 1 in the intelligence biz and others..)
Can you supply a link or two?
Alfred, I’m sorry to hear of your loss today. Know that you are doing so much by keeping us informed.
Steve @ 198
“Somebody” has Monica’s back, and McNulty is playing along.
Steve @ 198
I remember someone (Marcy?/ LHP?) saying that they just could not get a handle on McNulty. Good guy or bad guy? I remember thinking the same thing. Well he made it abundantly clear today which category he’s in.
Want to support the troops? I know of no better way than to bring all of them home.
LS @ 193
yeah. go to the BBC site and check out the journo these scumbags have been holding for 100 days cause the beeb won’t cought up 10 mil for him.
It is important to understand that the cutoff of western aid caused a previously small-scale kidnap for ransom industry in gaza to become a major fundraising arm for the hamas. News corp payed 5 mil to get their boys back, and other news orgs have ponied up as well, many “in advance”. Our firm was okayed by both the Israelis and Fatah, but when fatah got kicked out, we lost our security big time. The boys were trying to get out with the servers and didn’t make it. Welcome to the 21st century folks.
Hey, Cheney’s kind of his own “branch” – doesn’t seem to belong to any particular part of government, he even said so, and he doesn’t wear a uniform, and he’s waging war resulting in the deaths of thousands of Americans. Does that make him an enemy combatant?
Hugh @ 176
hugh’s list
hey hugh, would you consider putting the url of your list in the website box… that way people could click on your name to find it easily.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 176
My thoughts go out to you, your colleagues, and their families.
The entire premise of keeping troops – be they 10,000 or 200,000 in Iraq “for their own good” misses an essential fact. Just because we illegally – as in war crimes illegally – preemptively attacked their country and now illegally – as in war crimes illegally – are occupying and destroying Iraq – we do not automagically get to stay … for any reason, any.
Iraq does not belong to america … and we have no legal right to be there.
And the Iraqi people will not meekly acquiesce to our presence no matter what bullshit line we use to try to prove it is “for their own good.”
And “air power” simply means more imposition of imperialist control – with ever more civilian casualties … which is also a war crime.
One problem with representative democracy is that no one knows for sure what the people want? First and foremost the candidates want to be elected. They are concerned a majority of we the people do not want to face up to an embarassing defeat. We can only hope the candidates are being dishonest to get votes and once elected they will withdraw. Immediate withdrawal Democrats are not leading the pack.
Loo Hoo. @ 197
Thank you. My story is only one of dozens and will likely not make the news. But keep your eyes peeled, because these turkeys are going to go one step too far fairly soon, and Israel (with the blessings of all the Sunni states) will cream them and put fatah back in power with israeli help. THAT should be fun to watch…
I agree. Within the first two minutes of his testimony, it became clear that “rocking the boat” is not in the McNulty lexicon but “the gravy train” certainly is
heh. I saw it even earlier than that. Before the official beginning of the hearing, I could see, on C-Span, lots of smiles, handshakes, pats on the back between McNulty and the R members of the Committee.
The fix was in, well before he showed up this morning. Also, did anyone else notice that on a few occasions the R’s would ask that the Dem members be given extra time to continue their questions?
They’re laughing at us.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 204
K&R. In Gaza. Bad.
So sorry Alfred.
LS @ 205
Someone here earlier today said “oh, you are not part of the executive branch? No problem, and no executive privelege either.” That comment is why I love this site.
LS @ 202
No. He’s a spy, out of uniform on enemy soil.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 193
selise @ 206
D’oh, that’s an idea. If I did it right, it should appear now.
Hugh @ 204
Thanks hugh. we had already gotten their families out to Egypt but they thought they could make a deal with a Hamas guy they grew up with. Apparently that didn’t work. All we knew was we lost their feed yesterday evening; we called the phone people and they said the lines were down, perhaps due to the fighting. Then the video showed up in one of our honeypot email servers. Lovely.
Helen @ 213
Yup. He really has a “non” job. He’s actually just supposed to wait around in case the POTUS can’t rule, to vote if there is a tie in Congress, and to read out the election results in the Senate after elections. That is it. Anything else he does, is a result of bones the POTUS decides to throw him. He is not a part of any of the other branches at all. Oh, and he is head of the Navy when the Navy is at home.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 189
AK, you’re very much appreciated here at the Lake! I’m sorry for the losses! I concur with your analysis @177, much of the fuel for the Jihadist movement is fostered internally within the Arab Street! Saudi Arabia is a prime example, 15 of the 911 hijackers were Saudis! The populace is heavily subjugated to the Crown, with little rights and/or basic liberties afforded them! It is a sorry situation for muslims, in the holy land of Islam!
LS @ 126
I’ll buy the first one while you’re waiting if you’ll cut the lemons.
[reaching for the salt shaker]
Hugh @ 216
Thanks Hugh and Selise. I’ve been talking up Hugh’s list for months and always have trouble finding it. Now I can forward it without problem.
newtonusr @ 209
thanks. we have a policy here, which i cannot discuss for legal reasons. let’s just say, MF’s GONNA PAY. We have long arms and very hard hearts, and we are willing to wait to see justice done within the law.
Helen @ 213
Yeah, not Executive Branch? No Executive Privilege.
YOU CAN COUGH UP THOSE ENERGY TASK FORCE DOCUMENTS NOW, DICK.
Rayne @ 220
Down the imaginary hatch, cheers!!
Siun @ 208
My name is kiddo. And I approve of the above statement.
Loo Hoo. @ 212
The magic number is about 7$ per gallon. Wait for it, it will be here soon enough…
Helen @ 175
Helen, that was the battle for worst Person In the World honors for today.
If it was just one of them, or even just Clinton, I might buy the “What part of ‘no’ don’t they understand?”
But I don’t think Clinton, Obama, and Edwards are all insane, stupid, or puppets to Big Oil or the International Jewish Conspiracy.
It therefore follows that they think there’s a necessity to keeping troops in Iraq, or in the region, in some configuration.
What they need to do is explain their thinking, completely and in detail. They need to explain specifically what they think the troops can accomplish, what means there are to accomplish it, how they can accomplish it without breaking the military more than Bush has broken it, how much it’s going to cost and how that’s going to be paid.
And opponents of their ideas need to be as honest and clear-thinking in return: not resort to yelling slogans, not call them names, not impugn their motives, and not dismiss whatever they say without analyzing it – but respond as thoughtfully and completely as they do.
jayt @ 211
Yes they are and the only way to wipe the smirk off of their faces is to drag their asses in front of a grand jury. They good news is that you can’t be a Republican today without committing felonies; the bad news is that, after 01/20/09, the Dems wont use that to destroy the Republican party.
Did we know that Monica Goodling appointed Tim Griffin to be interim US Attorney?
From page 52 of the first batch of Goodling’s papers in tonight’s dump- talking points for a telephone call to Griffin from Goodling on 2-16-2007
Last, I want you to know that I appointed you to serve as interim U.S.
Attorney because I knew that you were well-qualified and I am pleased that
you are willing to continue to serve as the interim U.S. Attorney until
someone is nominated and confirmed.
oh my, alfred.
keep on talkin’ sounds good to me.
Loo Hoo. @ 110
I used to, now live on the east coast
Alfred Kelgarries @ 197
robert pape’s book
a lecture
wikipedia links, here and here.
I believe this article expresses well and clearly our reasons for being in Iraq and our reasons for staying in Iraq — even up to 50 years.
http://www.bushagenda.net/article.php?id=394
Rayne @ 223
I have this secret
wishhope that all those documents Cheney thought he was shredding weren’t.Glenn Beck/Michael Graham WPITWs talked about the Clintons being wack’d in the video…
Rayne @ 223
YES!!!! Waxman also said because of that he also cannot declassify or classify at will according to the 2003 thingy, so that basically would mean (to me) that either he leaked illegally, or that Bush was the real leaker and leaked to him, or someone else leaked to Cheney, and he leaked illegally to Libby etal. Which is it? Time to subpoena the 4th Branch.
Helen @ 221
You are very welcome and thanks for the support.
dakine01 @ 227
Thanks – just saw it. I would really love a real fight between them. Well, next week hopefully. I think that the Right firing squad may begin shortly.
my sympathies, Alfred.
SeamusD @ 230
Oh – this ROCKS. Thank you for finding it
Works now, Hugh!
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/PO…..index.html
the gitmo closing down article
Helen @ 241
Is this for real???? She said that?
SeamusD @ 230
Naw, naw, she’s just passing on her congrats. All that appointment stuff can be read so many ways. Or maybe not. Obstructing a Congressional investigation, anyone?
Alfred Kelgarries @ 208
alfred, i cut you a ton of slack for what you are going through. but that doesn’t justify writing it would be fun to watch innocent people killed.
it’s one thing to call for attacking those guilty for the murder of your colleagues, but another thing entirely to call for revenge against over a million people.
LS @ 237
this is GREAT stuff guys, let’s hope some of the demcrats read here at the lake
I want to remind everyone that Dick Cheney is indeed a mad man
immediately after reports are released by his own agencies, reports that call his lies the lies that they are, he gets in front of the TEEvee and repeats the lie yet again
he totally lost control and actually told a sitting congressman {leahy} to “fuck off”
he is a mad man guys…I would love to see HIM confronted with a subpeona…MAN he would loose absolute control
The MPG legislation isn’t bad at first glance. If you combine cars and light trucks/SUVs- we are currently at about 22 MPG- this bill pushes it to 35 combined. Gives companies plenty of time to adjust to the new rules.
They can get a lot of what’s needed by:
1) Adjusting their product mix (more car based SUVs- fewer truck based SUVS.
2) shavin some weight off the pigs
3) Using “shut down’ technology to shut down half the motor when it isn’t needed.
4) Hybrid technology in 50% of the fleet.
5) NO IDLE technology borrowed from hybrids shutting the engine down while the vehicle is stopped.
6) Harder tires.
Nothin earth shattering needed- most of it can be done with marketing which is what the US companies do best.
This law could be the best thing possible for US companies- it could wake them from their dogmatic slumbers!
Arkansas karma keeps regurgitating Griffin and pewking him away to places he doesn’t want to be…boo..hoo…
Siun @ 206
thank you. well said.
Why a Democratic President Might Keep Troops in Iraq?
Because – as leader of the American Empire – the Empire’s shareholders will demand it.
Big Energy and Big Mercenaries and Big War Machines are demanding masters.
So the next “freely elected” leader duly consecrated by immersion in the font of
fiscal prostitutionfundraising and thus sanctified to respresnt the interests of Empire will be expected to bleed away those drafted by patriotism or poverty into US Imperial adventures.(For more on Big Mercenaries as demanding masters, the Julio-Claudian successions are quite contemporary.)
Oh Blackwater, keep on rising
CTuttle @ 216
Thank you CT, I do try to help shed a little light from my own experience and contacts. I muchly enjoy your posts too.
Please don’t let anyone think I am for this insane war of aggression american is currently in. Lord no! As a student of history, both academically and professionally, I am aware of one marvellous fact: NO NATION SINCE THE INVENTION OF REPEATING FIREARMS HAS EVER WON OR OBTAINED ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL BENEFIT FROM STARTING A WAR. Period. I’ll give the list:
America; South started civil war, was creamed.
Crimea: Nobody got anything useful out of that mess.
Boer Wars: Temporary gain, led to long term destruction of british influence in the region.
WW one and two. Germany started both, and we all remember the result: if we hadn’t rebuild germany, it would be a larger version of switzerland today. Japan ditto except probably more like afghanistan.
Korean: invaded SK, etc. How’s that working out for you, KJI?
Vietnam: helicopters on the roof. and I just watched a Vietnamese touristm and investment tv ad today. Could we have perhaps gone from the french leaving to the tv add WITHOUT all the dead and wounded and eco and psycho damage, please?
Afghanistan: sovs roll in, sovs roll out (fewer of them of course). how did that work out for you, mr brezhnev old boy? Thought so.
(Panama and Grenada were live fire training exercises. Don’t count. Same with air campaign against serbia in bosnia and kosovo.)
Anybody see a good reason to think our little adventure will do any better? I didn’t think so.
jayt @ 240
mine, too.
4th Branch even has his own private army via Halliburton contracts – Blackwater. He is a nation unto his own operating with impunity in our midst.
Subpoena him.
why, tiz friday after all
a new document dump…if it’s released on friday it’s got to be a good one
here’s the real question though…this gives us all weekend to work on it…I believe the “friday doc dump” strategy is as counter productive as their plans to “fight” terrorism
4th Branch has his own prisons too, via Halliburton.
Selise – thank you for mentioning the Iran vote … I am still astonished that even our allies voted for it.
Not sure if you saw, but GorillasGuides lost two more bloggers in the bombing on Tuesday – three others were wounded though are home.
Good post, Swopa. Very thoughtful, and much to chew on.
Fellow pups, this will not be popular, but I have to say it anyway. In microcosm, right here, we’re behaving in exactly the way the goopers want. Not voting, or voting independent, is a vote for the goopers. Period. There will certainly be no end to any of this madness if the goopers hold the WH in 2008.
And maybe the goopers/Israelis/Lieberman did the dirty work, but America screwed up in Iraq. We’re responsible for destabilizing the buffer zone between the Sunnis and the Shia, and the barely-safe haven for the Kurds. Saddam was a foul and unappetizing piece of rotten snakemeat, but he had a purpose. We have, America has, broken the sewer drain. We have to fix it, not just shrug and go to a different stall.
We would all be better served by coming up with ideas on how to fix the problem, rather than scream at each other and threaten to throw our votes at the goopers, however indirectly.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 222
And your arguments are especially valid considering the current trade situation. We are so fond of tossing around “UN trade embargoes” on people that we want to bully.
How would WE like it if the EU, China and Russia embargoed US for war crimes. Don’t say it can’t happen…
Where’s TRex? Damnitall, I’m getting deluged with pen catalogs now since I bought my set of Monteverde Mauna Keas. Fahrney’s arrived today with a Montegrappa Espressione on the cover. [sigh]
Watertiger upstairs slappin’ Rudy around
Siun @ 257
God that’s awful too!!!
Alfred, I just read of your loss.
I am so sorry for your loss and your friends loss -
and for the bereavement and suffering of all those in Iraq, Afganistan, and the Mideast who have perished or lost loved ones in a century of Anglo-American war and manipulation.
And for those in the UK, US, and elsewhere who lost friends and loved ones in a century of violence and tyranny inflicted over oil.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 167
yup. it’s in the DOJ docs. Jan 9, 2005 email exchange. DOJ Docs Part 7-1, March 19, 2007. Page 180.
Loo Hoo. @ 170
Madness! Madness! Madness!
Bob in HI
Did anyone hear the Ted Koppel piece on NPR. One of the worst pieces I’ve heard in a long time. His thesis was that since we only accidentally killed the children in the school in Afghanistan that we were morally superior to the Iraqi resistance since they deliberately blew up children. The only problem is: We lied about not knowing that there were children in the compound. We knew and didn’t care. I haven’t been this disgusted with NPR in a long time.
dakine01 @ 261
Slappin’ Rudy around? Gotta go!!!
newspaperbrat @ 158
well, she didnt have to, as it starts up around the MD-PA border. my mom was the same, grew up in the mtns of VA and then moved to DC during WWII. met the old man and chased him across country when he tried to escape to fly planes in the pacific. There have been some great Sun reporters, some I even followed from Boston and parts south, like Lyle Denniston.
AK@252, Once again you’re dead on, Aggression begets no tangible results! Literally, Violence begets violence! I was chuckling over your Live-Fire exercises references to Panama and Grenada, I was in Basic during Grenada, and was alerted for Panama, and associated with many vets of both, and their AARs essentially summed it up as such!
Siun @ 257
so sorry siun. so many senseless deaths. with your news and alfred’s… it’s just heartbreaking.
Id Cheney is not part of the executive branch (which, perhaps I could buy since his only function, unless the president dies, is to work with the Senate) what happens to executive privilege? Opps.
selise @ 246
selise, I’m not talking about the palestinian people, I’m strictly speaking of Hamas, who very deservedly need to be put out of business. The israelis are not stupid anymore. When they go in to shut down hamas it will be surgical and they will do their utmost to only take out the hamas armed forces. THAT’s what will be fun to watch.
And let me make one thing clear: I DO NOT FAVOR A TWO STATE SOLUTION. I favor a ONE STATE SOLUTION, called Palestine. Local areas have degrees of autonomy based on needs, with a federal government jointly administered by both jewish and muslim leaders ELECTED BY EVERYONE, just like they have now. Instead of enclaving and effectively ghettoizing the palestinians, make them part of israel, rename it palestine, and get this stupid palestinian business over with. Set up a mechanism to FORCE return of all the refugees and pay for the needed construction with about a week’s worth of the money were are peeing away in Iraq. Then do job training to move their already well-educated populace into the global work force. Check out the Celtic Tiger for results. (I even sent that in to CNN’s jack cafferty and he read it on the air. a weird moment.)
Selise, I am upset and thus not communicating clearly. I DO NOT FAVOR TAKING A SINGLE HUMAN LIFE, unless that life has itself taken others lives. Then “those who live by the sword shall die by it. He who sheds man’s blood by man will his blood be shed.” We have to clean up our own messes, like it or not. That is why I HATE WAR. I lost three good acquaintences today. There are undoubtedly people in Gaza right now who have lost husbands, sons, grandfathers and grandsons. All because of the stupid WARS from the 20th century. I cannot fix history, and I cannot make the bad men in government and industry go away by wishing. But I can and will hope for revenge from the Israeli army against the murderers who killed our people. And I will enjoy it. I am not a nice man. But as long as you don’t kill my friends and acquaintences, you’d never realize it.
Hugh @ 207
what Hugh said. Alfred, so sorry to hear about the atrocious loss of your colleagues.
Potential fountain pen addicts:
can only stay a second, but, anyone looking to try a swell fountain pen, try the Lamy Safari with medium nib, and the converter, aand a bottle of noodler’s ink in one of 24 colors(i like ottoman azure). pencity.com can set you up with these items for less than 50 bucks(the pen is 21 and some change).
gotta run, sick cat.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 272 –
peace alfred. i don’t want to argue with you today.
today, condolences only.
The ComPost quoted an estimate of 20 months recently.
One thing is for certain, it wouldnt be quick or pretty.
And it begins to look like piss poor planning will exact a greater toll on enyone other than the piss poor planners
<a href=”#comment-773836″ rel=”nofollow”><em>SeamusD @ 44</em></a>
<blockquote><a href=”#comment-773811″ rel=”nofollow”><em>Steve @ 23</em></a>
<blockquote>I think the bottom line is that the military doesn’t know how to get out. If the order came to leave today..it would take, best estimate, thirteen months to extract people and equipment. That is if no one is shooting at the trucks driving down the single road to Kuwait. (Good luck with that hypothesis). What a fucking mess and it is going to get a lot worse.</blockquote>
Whose best estimate? Has the Pentagon even tried to plan an end to this occupation? Does any one know?</blockquote>
selise @ 275
Thanks, and peace to you. That’s what all of here at the lake want, though we may differ on methodology…
Alfred Kelgarries @ 252
Hi Alfred, very sorry to hear of your losses … please explain, “if we hadn’t rebuild germany, it would be a larger version of switzerland today.” and thanks for the ongoing lessons on world history and events.
kirk murphy @ 263
thank you Kirk. all i actually hope for right now is to dial down the killing. that, at least might be achievable in the short run.
rwcole @ 180
I knew it!
Bob in HI
Petrocelli @ 278
Do a google or check wiki on the white paper written by the British for disposition of germany after they end of the war. The wrote it in 1943, before there was any evidence the soviets would survive. If they hadn’t, that would have probably been the way things went. Let me know if you can’t find it and i’ll dig up the link, i have it somewhere…
And thank you. Those who died today are, IMHO, very much still around, just at a different level of description. Not religion, quantum mechanics…
TiredFed @ 273
Thanks, TiredFed. They didn’t die in vain; we got a major HVT just before they went down. Guy had been running heroin into Israel through the gaza for about two years, the Israelis couldn’t get him because he was always changing phones. Heh. That trick only works for a while, as he knows now (sitting in jail in Turkey as we speak, and undoubtedly not a happy camper…)
So, how will the overworked (too few), American troops in Iraq react to this latest little lot?
Turkey Launches Unilateral Northern Iraq Attacks Against Kurd Fighters …
This Old Brit @ 283
No-fly zones?
/s
squirrel!!!!!!!!!!!!
good to see you!!!!!!!!!!
Alfred Kelgarries @ 280
I will look for that White Paper, thanks.
I have had lots of discussions with yoga teachers and priests about the differences between spirituality and religion …
… which is probably a topic for another day and a few bottles of Grade A hooch :~)
The chats always become heated when we discuss this aspect … that no one really dies …
… some fool always, without fail, stands up and says, “… well then that means no crime was committed, therefore no karma was accumulated …”
Alfred Kelgarries @ 176
Alfred,
I join the others who join with you to mourn your loss. I have been to Gaza and the West Bank, though it was many years ago. I have friends who were there recently, just a few weeks ago.
There is an unfortunate parallel between Occupied Palestine and Iraq, made so in part because Bush was a fawning admirer of Ariel Sharon. In both the Palestinian territories and Iraq, the occupying power thought it was smart to cut off the head and shoulders of the local security forces. What you get then is lawlessness. There are dozens of militias now, in both Iraq and Occupied Palestine. Most of them are based on family ties that sound uncomfortably like Sicilian crime families, although whether they’re involved in crime or not, I have no idea. The important point is that when civil power is destroyed, what you have left are family ties. Families tend to form alliances, so you get names for alliances, like “Hamas”, or “Hezbollah” or “Fatah” or “Sunni”, the Barzani clans of Kurds, or “Moktada al-Sadr Shiite” who try to maintain order in their little corner of the world. And then you juice everything up by pouring guns into the area (or leaving hundreds of ammo dumps unguarded.)
The stupidity of our leadership boggles my mind.
Bob in HI
Petrocelli @ 286
The proper response is to take said fool at his word and…(you can guess the rest):>
I look forward to that discussion. When I am feeling a bit better, a’ course.
I keep a text file on all my servers called “cleverbits”. They auto synch with each other, so i put into whichever one i’m working on any clever sigs or postings I encounter on Teh Toobz. Here’s my favorite about religion/spirituality:
“Spirituality is one’s relationship to the Divine. Religion is crowd control.”
–Swami Beyondadanda
The Loneliness of the Military Historian
Confess: it’s my profession
that alarms you.
This is why few people ask me to dinner,
though Lord knows I don’t go out of my way to be scary.
I wear dresses of sensible cut
and unalarming shades of beige,
I smell of lavender and go to the hairdresser’s:
no prophetess mane of mine,
complete with snakes, will frighten the youngsters.
If I roll my eyes and mutter,
if I clutch at my heart and scream in horror
like a third-rate actress chewing up a mad scene,
I do it in private and nobody sees
but the bathroom mirror.
In general I might agree with you:
women should not contemplate war,
should not weigh tactics impartially,
or evade the word enemy,
or view both sides and denounce nothing.
Women should march for peace,
or hand out white feathers to arouse bravery,
spit themselves on bayonets
to protect their babies,
whose skulls will be split anyway,
or, having been raped repeatedly,
hang themselves with their own hair.
These are the functions that inspire general comfort.
That, and the knitting of socks for the troops
and a sort of moral cheerleading.
Also: mourning the dead.
Sons, lovers, and so forth.
All the killed children.
Instead of this, I tell
what I hope will pass as truth.
A blunt thing, not lovely.
The truth is seldom welcome,
especially at dinner,
though I am good at what I do.
My trade is courage and atrocities.
I look at them and do not condemn.
I write things down the way they happened,
as near as can be remembered.
I don’t ask why, because it is mostly the same.
Wars happen because the ones who start them
think they can win.
In my dreams there is glamour.
The Vikings leave their fields
each year for a few months of killing and plunder,
much as the boys go hunting.
In real life they were farmers.
They come back loaded with splendour.
The Arabs ride against Crusaders
with scimitars that could sever
silk in the air.
A swift cut to the horse’s neck
and a hunk of armour crashes down
like a tower. Fire against metal.
A poet might say: romance against banality.
When awake, I know better.
Despite the propaganda, there are no monsters,
or none that can be finally buried.
Finish one off, and circumstances
and the radio create another.
Believe me: whole armies have prayed fervently
to God all night and meant it,
and been slaughtered anyway.
Brutality wins frequently,
and large outcomes have turned on the invention
of a mechanical device, viz. radar.
True, valour sometimes counts for something,
as at Thermopylae. Sometimes being right—
though ultimate virtue, by agreed tradition,
is decided by the winner.
Sometimes men throw themselves on grenades
and burst like paper bags of guts
to save their comrades.
I can admire that.
But rats and cholera have won many wars.
Those, and potatoes,
or the absence of them.
It’s no use pinning all those medals
across the chests of the dead.
Impressive, but I know too much.
Grand exploits merely depress me.
In the interests of research
I have walked on many battlefields
that once were liquid with pulped
men’s bodies and spangled with exploded
shells and splayed bone.
All of them have been green again
by the time I got there.
Each has inspired a few good quotes in its day.
Sad marble angels brood like hens
over the grassy nests where nothing hatches.
(The angels could just as well be described as vulgar
or pitiless, depending on camera angle.)
The word glory figures a lot on gateways.
Of course I pick a flower or two
from each, and press it in the hotel Bible
for a souvenir.
I’m just as human as you.
But it’s no use asking me for a final statement.
As I say, I deal in tactics.
Also statistics:
for every year of peace there have been four hundred
years of war.
Margaret Atwood
[Mod note; sorry, but some strange hiccup tweaked the formatting of this most excellent piece that can also be found here.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 288
You read my thoughts … if I weren’t such an ardent devotee of Ahimsa, I would throttle the bastard !!! *g*
… love the quote, BTW …
Bob Schacht @ 287
My experience is a bit third hand because I’ve never been there, just worked with people we subcontracted to who grew up there. But I gathered from the tidbits that came through along with work stuff is that you are right on about most of it. The criminal gangs are few in number and only take westerners, otherwise they’d be taken down locally. And they are indeed family operations.
Hamas, however, is state sponsored, combination of Syria and Iran. And they have dredged the depths of the region for the most sadistic and brutal killers to use for their enforcers, then trained them in camps in the Bakaa valley. The problem is that they also run schools, charities, hospitals, etc. They give cash payments to people killed by the IDF and for children who do suicide actions. Given the huge unemployment in gaza and WB, that money gives them power all out of proportion to their other street cred as it were.
I didn’t really care until they killed our people. Now, I’m their worst enemy. And Teh Toobz are my friend.
Joel Haynes @289:
Amen, brother. Amen. Time to finally learn from our mistakes.
You see, we have directed energy weapons and a Ubiquitous Information Infrastructure now. It is time for a Pax Technica Pax Internetica. It is, in fact, past time.
puppethead @ 16
The Army and Air Force believe that they can still run an operation similar to the Berlin Airlift, Dien Bien Phu notwithstanding. Air power to the military is not limited to offensive strikes. Huge amounts of supplies can be pushed out of those humungous cargo planes. Consequently, the old norm of ground-based supply lines is no longer relevant. The powers that be conveniently choose to forget what Vo Nguyen Giap and his band of guerrillas did to the French at Dien Bien Phu. When you’ve got people willing to dismantle field artillery and haul it up mountainsides in order to rain death down upon you, you’re in deep doo doo. I do think Iraqi insurgents are no less determined. The al-Quida types are numbered at 3-5% of the insurgency so that only leaves 95-97% to reckon with.
And Albatross @7 is right:
IT’S NOT A WAR, IT’S AN OCCUPATION
doc dump pg 74 (of 94) OAG 2080-2174
Wonder what info Bud Cummings – triumphant ballot impounder – found to provide to National Lawyers for Bush?
Wonder what caging went on in NM?
Did Cummings supply specific voter names to Attorneys for Bush to facilitate caging?
Did Cummings recruit attorneys to conspire in caging New Mexico voters?
Petrocelli @ 290
I keep switching from the next thread to here, I’m enjoying this one too much, not to revisit it! I love the quote too!!!
This is my favorite quote from Blackadder:
If you play straight with me you’ll find me a considerate employer. But cross me and you’ll soon discover that under this playful, boyish exterior beats the heart of a ruthless, sadistic maniac.
— Lord Edmund Blackadder, 1661
This Old Brit … it’s a pleasure to see you here.
Alfred Kelgarries @ 296
Here’s my favorite quote … from me … Shit Happens … Clean It !
Where are the DEM presidential contestants on taxing for the Iraq occupation?
Where are the DEM contestants on American Empire in the ME? On American militarism at the now going rate of around one trillion per year?
Where are the DEM contestants on putting in place a national war tax,a national military service callup or on the extensive use of mercenaries in Iraq?
The use of terms like “redeployment,over the horizon and border containment/sentinel force” are wiggle-room terms for saying something to get around being honest on American Empire or ME militarism.
If the DEM presidential contestants want to stay on in or around Iraq then they need to address war taxes,the Bush/Cheney tax cuts and where they stand on American hegemony in the ME.
If they refuse to do so or try duck,dodge and digress then the game is up.
They are for doing more of what Bush/Cheney and the warmongers want.
Stand and deliver or show the flag you fly then is where this leads to.
Over at TheYoungTurks it is GOROBAMA time.
Al Gore. Please run. Please. GOROBAMA. I can and will vote yes to that idea. :-)
As Blackadder might say of Swopa’s comment, “utter crap!” Why this dogged determination here to become utterly superfluous? I shouldn’t wonder. It’s great to see the folk here respond, appropriately. Ya boo to the columnis and Bravo to them.
See, my problem with this is sort of the same as my problem with Joe Biden’s fairyland of three Iraqs. Who’s going to enforce it? If the Turks (for instance) start seriously carving away at the Kurds, are we really going to begin bombing the army of a country with 75 million people that controls the entrance to the Black Sea? Could we really stop a serious Iranian drive on the Iraqi port of Umm Qasr or even Baghdad, if the Shiites there were supporting them? The crazies in DC may be ready to go to war with Iran, but are they really ready to do the same with Turkey? Does Turkey think so? Does anyone think we can afford to drop that amount of munitions? And would other interested countries just sit around while the US is carrying out long-range air attacks from the Persian Gulf carriers or would they use the time to inch a little closer to their goals in Iraq.
This plan is just stupid.
This is one of the first common sense blogs about this war I have seen here. I find it a little funny that it took for Obama and Edwards to embrace what Hillary has been saying for someone to finally admit that maybe there is something to it. We all want to get out of Iraq, hell I think even Bush does (Cheney I’m not so sure about). Turkey has already crossed the border up north to kill Kurds. Saudi Arabia has already stated that it would come to the Sunni’s aide if the US pulled out and the finally dominant Shia attacked them. Does anyone in their right mind think that Iran would just sit back and bide it’s time?
The amount of negative comments for this blog demonstrates what is wrong with the so-called progressive movement. They want out of Iraq so bad that they couldn’t care less what the consequences of it are. They are thinking with their hearts and not their heads. Responsible nations clean up their messes, and this one is a whopper. If we are to restore respect for our country we have to do the responsible thing regardless of how much it sucks. Immediately withdrawing all of our troops isn’t the magic answer, it won’t make the problem just go away.
The so-called progressives label such talk NeoCon propaganda because if they can make it seem distasteful otherwise reasonable people might ignore it. It’s the same game the NeoCons play with the “liberal” label.
Two faces of the same ugly lie.
Taps oer’ U.S. Embassy in Iraq
As the fat lady sings;
in the rockets’ red glare;
who’s gonna suck up the blame;
that the flag pole’s gone bare?
Somebody has to give the order to abandon Emerald City.
Some Iraqi group is going to be video’d celebrating, flag raising, flag burning and effigy burning as they enter the Palais de Bush hubris. Will it be Sunnis or Shiite Sadrists? God forbid al Quaeda will even have a cameo appearance.
Bush, on his watch, will never withdraw the troops needed to keep our Embassy operating.
He will let this political conflagration happen on the next, presumably Democrat’, President’s watch.
The world will not soon forget this spectacle when it happens.
It is a political fireball that may sear and burn for decades.
______________
Just something to think about!
–cognitorex–
Looks like I’ll be sitting out this election.
I won’t vote for imperialism.