One of the more interesting proposals for the national energy legislation Congress is considering is called a Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS). The basic idea is that electric utilities would be required to purchase or obtain some fixed amount – New Mexico’s Senator Bingaman has proposed 15 percent by 2020 — of their electric energy from “renewable resources,” such as solar, wind, geothermal and biomass. Currently, we get only about 2 percent from renewables, if you exclude power from hydroelectric plants built decades ago.
More renewable energy sounds like a good thing, and over 20 states have adopted some version of an RPS for their own utilities. Some states (e.g., Massachusetts) combine the RPS with a renewable credit trading program, so that areas with more renewable resources can sell credits to areas that have less. The trading helps efficiently allocate costs between areas, so that we get a lower total cost for the overall RPS goal. So far, however, Senator Bingaman has been dissuaded by the threat of a filibuster on his national RPS proposal, so it’s not yet in the Senate energy bill. But more important, the national discussion of RPS’ merits and other measures aren’t grappling with the underlying problem that alternative electricity generation needs to solve.
Some 30 years ago, California (like a few other states) began pushing for renewable energy sources as a response to California’s excessive reliance on oil. At that time, California’s utilities relied heavily on very old, very dirty, and very inefficient oil-fired plants, in addition to some nuclear, some out-of-state coal and lots of hydro in rainy years. We pushed money into R&D, tax credits and other subsidies for renewables as hard as we could, and California made some progress in getting renewable energy power plants into California’s energy mix. There are literally thousands of wind generators in California’s hills today, a few (mostly experimental) solar thermal plants, more solar photovoltaic appllications, lots of geothermal (much of it developed by a utility, PG&E, before we pushed for more). And we made a sustained effort to improve efficiency to reduce the growth in electricity demand from an expected 7 percent per year to less than 2 percent — a huge success. But after all that effort, some of which slowed when Republicans were California’s governors, non-hydro renewables still account for less than a few percent of California’s energy mix. Now they’re committed to do more.
California is not like the rest of the country. While it has lots of potential for renewable development, many areas of the country don’t have the wind or geothermal resources California does. There’s lots of wind in some regions; less in others. And the fuel mix in others states is very different from California’s. We got some of our power from out-of-state coal plants, but because coal is dirty, and California was focused on air emissions, there were essentially no coal plants in California; we simply didn’t rely on coal nearly as much as other states in the West, South, Midwest and East. And that’s the problem when we think about a national renewable energy policy.
If you want to use a renewable energy strategy to reduce reliance on oil, foreign or otherwise, it’s a bad fit, because most regions of the country do not rely on oil for much of their electric generation. The country relies heavily on coal, some nuclear, and increasing amounts of natural gas as a power plant fuel. While the newest gas-fired plants are efficient and run more often, older natural gas plants tend to operate on the margin: they are often the last plants dispatched (instructed to produce energy) and thus the first plants displaced when new alternative energy plants come on line.
This means that when renewable plants like wind or solar operate, they tend to displace energy from gas-fired plants, rather than coal plants. The coal plants are cheap to operate, so they’re dispatched essentially 24/7, except when down for maintenance. Nukes are operated the same way. While there are some newer gas plants that also operate “base-load,” they’re basically just keeping up with growing consumer demand, and there aren’t enough of them to displace the existing coal plants. Yet the coal plants are the ones that produce, by far, the most emissions that harm the environment, public health and global climate change.
If we want to tackle these problems, we need to be thinking about what it would take to displace tens/hundreds of thousands of megawatts of existing coal plants, or find some way to clean them up. The costs will be enormous, including the social and economic impact on those who earn their living from coal and the effect on their communities. We have a massive, multifaceted industrial policy problem to solve.
Replacing subsidies and tax breaks for the oil industry with subsidies and tax breaks for renewables is worth doing on its own, just to restore some balance, and that’s what the Senate was up to yesterday. But nothing being contemplated so far — about $10 billion in tax breaks for renewables, plus susidized financing — comes even remotely close to the scale needed. And renewables can’t do the job alone.
To replace and/or clean up hundreds of existing coal plants, we’re going to need generation technologies we don’t yet have (or accept ones we may not like, e.g., nuclear) and/or pollution controls that are not yet proven, before we can make a sizable dent in the problems created by our huge reliance on conventional coal-based technologies. While some tax breaks in the Senate bill would go to “clean-coal” efforts, the Senate showed it’s skepticism yesterday by voting down proposals for tax breaks for coal-based liquid fuels for the transportation sector. We’re not sure about “clean coal” techniques, we don’t know how well carbon sequestration will work and we still haven’t solved the nuclear fuel disposal problem.
The Senate previously defeated efforts to define “clean-coal technologies” or nuclear plants as “renewables,” an effort to allow them to tap into the renewables tax subsidies and qualify under the RPS goals. That keeps the RPS mechanism focused on what its advocates view as genuine “renewable” resources, but it also creates opponents in regions heavily reliant on coal and upsets the pro-nuclear group. But of course, new “clean coal plants” (still unproven) and new nuclear plants actually do displace the older coal plants that are the underlying problem.
All this means that Congress is not yet facing the magnitude of the coal problem that needs to be addressed. An RPS approach may be worthwhile on its own, and stronger financial support for renewable development is overdue. Efforts to improve energy efficiency are even better and should, in my view, be given the highest priority for now. But we’re going to need much more than these approaches before we’re done. This is a really hard problem.
Update, 3:30 p.m. EDT: The Senate voted to include a weaker RPS in the Energy Bill. The approved version sets the goal at 10 percent, rather than 15 percent, and exempts Federal Power Marketing Agencies, such at TVA and Bonneville Power Administration from its coverage.
(Photo via an archival shot from the Charleston Daily Mail via the West Virginia State Archives, Circa 1940s.)



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mornin’
Good morning!
Scarecrow, have you heard of the fuel source Timonium?
Kathryn in MA @ 2
Kathryn, are you pulling my leg? And this early in the morning? I think that’s a character in a Shakespeare play. Or maybe the word for what happens when you get three or more rightwing whackos in the room at the same time. Or perhaps a condition caused by undue caution?
Uh, no, what is it?
Thanks for this, Scarecrow.
On mining-related (though not coal) issues, it was discovered a few days ago that the state of Minnesota (which under Governor Tim Pawlenty is oh-so-business-friendly) tried to hide scores of asbestos-connected cancer deaths of miners.
Let me go find a nice link
Hi Scarecrow!
Thanks for this, just opened Big Coal, not far enough along to contribute this morning.
Will say this, tho, coal mining is a blight on the landscape — in addition to all the rest about it.
This interview was on this morning’s Marketplace Morning Report: Clean energy on the fast track
“Renewables can’t do the job alone.”
Scarecrow, renewables did do the job alone until the advent of the steam engine. If we burn through our fossil fuels, renewables will have to do the job alone, like it or not. Of course we can’t burn through “all” of our fossil fuels, but if we burn most of what is left of our economically feasible fossil fuel reserves we will likely intensify global warming to an unacceptable level, among other things.
As those of us who have followed the energy issue for a long time know, there is no single solution to this very intractable problem. Over the long term we will need — perforce — to transition to a sustainable economy, and sustainable means renewable. We will have to use less energy per unit GDP by becoming more efficient. We will have to de emphasize suburbs with their long commutes. We will have to develop renewables. And yes, we will almost certainly have to reduce the world population.
This is a longterm project for which little political will exists now but that is what we will have to do in order for civilization survive, among other things.
Elliott @ 6
The great economic clash is coming from two numbers: The industry often tells us we have over 400 years worth of coal reserves (at present usage rates). And Gore is telling us we have about 10 years to reverse the warming trend. How do we even start a conversation to bridge this huge gap in perspectives?
mornin’s all. sorry to interrupt, but there’s not much on PACER on the Libby appeal yet. There is some detail on the amicus brief that was filed and denied (turns out it was Bork and Co. again). Unfortunately, their brief is not up on PACER either.
Why don’t we just conserve a little bit? Not one bit of legislation even talking about promotion of conservation. If everyone just kept their tires at the right pressure, we’d save billions of gallons of gas every year. Why not just start an ad campaign about that? Why are we even talking about coal? Why not just turn out the lights when we don’t need them?
G’Morning…. sun just peaking up in AZ…
It is a heat advisory day with a predicted 114 degrees. Yep, we are sitting on a gold mine here with over 300 days of sunshine and it is thrown away daily. My plan is to go solar over the next 3-4 years. Starting with a solar pool pump and water heater [under $10k] and eventually to power the house. That system runs over $20k with enough state & federal rebates to cut the cost in half. They state it pays for itself in 3-5 years. There is one system that sells back the power or just provides energy while the sun is up and then I would pay for my night power. No storage batteries needed.
My power company is the Co-op and maintains reasonable rates but the other part of Phoenix has the commercial power company, they just were approved for a second 12% rate hike in 18 months.
Sunlight — nice name. Do you track solar photovoltaic progress? I still remember the DOE reports from 30 years ago that said cost competitiveness was right on the horizon. Then ten years later, they updated the report to say it was just on the horizon. Where is it now?
Dang. Timonium (sp?) is on the same row in the periodic table as uranium etc, is plentiful all over, won’t go critical, has negligible waste, doesn’t need refining, and can burn uranium waste. please tell me its not a hoax.
I was happy to see that Jim Bunning’s somewhat ludicrous push for liquod coal was defeated. This amendment was co-sponsored by Deminici, Hatch, Enzi, Craig, and Martinez.
Of course, we now have the Governor of KY trying to call a special session to push for liquod coal and give his contributors at Mr Peabody’s Coal Company a multi-million dollar gift.
And they’re still pushing this idiocy of mountain-topping where they basically top off the mountain to get to the coal.
GeorgeSimian @ 11
Actually there’s some very good stuff in the energy bill on improved efficiency. New appliance efficiency standards focused on central heating/cooling equipment (air conditioners are huge consumers). And of course, the big issue, which the NYT article I linked above mentions, is about how tough new mileage standares will be for new cars, light trucks/SUVs. Big battle there, but something will emergee that moves us forward.
scarecrow – thanks so much for this, i hope you will continue analyze the energy legislation and proposals for us… it’s impossible for me to understand just from trying to read the bills.
sorta related, i’ve been participating in a state program to support renewable electricity generation by paying a bit extra for electricity. what is your take on this kind of program? is it worthwhile to participate in? is it worthwhile to support politically?
I am reading Kinsolver’s Animal Vegetable Miracle and thinking about the savings if we could eat locally. The way America lives and eats seems to be a part of the problem.
We just cant consume the same way anymore.
Great post Scarecrow. Thank you for the information and insight.
The good and the bad about improved efficiency standards for air conditioners. The AC I had was deemed obsolete because of the new seer standards and could not be repaired so it was replaced 4 years ago which cost $5k.
With any new changes, manufacturers are forced to stop supporting older models which forces homeowners to purchase a new one if repair are needed. It is great to continually improve efficiency but then forcing me to have to buy it because the manufacturers are prevented from supporting even the last version due to these changes is really harsh.
Kathryn in MA @ 14
Sorry, no can do; sounds like a hoax. There’s no Timonium or anything like it in the periodic table, and the “too good to be true” stuff is a giveaway.
The only Timonium I know of is a town north of Baltimore.
Sorry I cant make underline work
Excellent article, very well-founded. You’ve hit many of the caveats and trade-offs that we face in my industry.
askanenergyeconomist
selise @ 17
Selise — this NYT editorial is a decent summary of the major features/issues in the energy bills.
As for the renewable program, about a dozen states (mostly in the East, including MA) allow “retail choice,” in which consumers can choose who they want to be their electricity “supplier.” You can then sign up to buy “green” energy, and that’s generally a good thing.
Of course, electricity is electricity. It’s not “green” or any other color. The electric energy you get from your sockets is the same as mine and it all comes from the same “pool” of energy across a huge interstate grid. But part of the money you pay in your electric bill eventually winds up in the hands/pockets of renewable energy producers (and their merchandisers, middlemen,etc), and the more they get, the more likely they’ll make more investments in renewables instead of plants fired by natural gas, which is what most new plants are today. so yes, it’s a good think you’re doing.
There are two issues here. We shouldn’t be afraid of ” displacing natural gas fired power plants” with renewables, because North America is about to run out of natural gas. Saving it for heating, a purpose for which there is no good substitute is a wiser course.
On an entirely separate track we need to figure out how to sequester the carbon from burning coal. Because burn it we will. This is going to take a lot of money a fair amount of time, and the money should NOT go to the coal industry, it should go to our universities and federal labs, as well as the greater scientific community.
Kathryn in MA @ 14:
Do you mean Thorium? Th 232, the only naturally occurring isotope, is fissionable, IIRC.
As Red Shift says @21, There’s no “Timonium” listed in my ancient copy of the Handbook of Chemistry & Physics.
snowbird42 @ 18
In that vein, I recently read about some interesting new ideas from researchers at Columbia for “vertical farms” in urban areas.
Scarecrow @ 9
my first move would be get rid of BushCo, get them out of office, out of Washington. And get the lobby-money Senators and the lobby-money Representatives OFF the controlling committees.
Spotlight.
Scarecrow @ 16
All of this stuff is good, but there are things that can be done right now, today, that require nothing more than popularizing the issue. Imagine that someone like Al Gore was President. He’d be on TV every week sending a message that we could turn off a light, or pump up our tires, or whatever. Bush is too tied to the oil industry. For him, cutting efficiency means less money for oil companies.
Carbon taxes. That is the only real answer that will work on the required scale in a timely manager. Trying to micromanage the solutions is bad policy. We need to attach the real cost of carbon emissions to fossil fuel consumption. The revenue can then be directed to reducing 9though not eliminating) the burden on the poor and middle class through services and reductions in things like wage taxes with the remainder devoted to R&D. Once energy reflects the full cost of generation there will be a huge rush of investments into renewables.
Redshift @ 27
neat!
Kathryn in MA @ 2
I think that’s a town in Maryland. This element (polonium?) was discussed yesterday in the threads. ought to be easy enough to find. brb
Kathryn in MA @ 14
Thorium?
http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/…..umscpt.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor
Clean coal power plants with carbon capture and sequestration if the technology can be proven – Yes
Coal-to-liquid transportation fuel – NEVER
GordonM @ 33
Bless you! Yes!
If CO2 emissions are going to be significantly reduced without major economic disruptions (and likely resultant social and political disruption), I don’t see how that can be accomplished without a significant role being played by nuclear fission power, at least through a transition period, and perhaps longer. The plants online in the US today are based on 35-40 year old technology, and there have been some significant safety improvements since. There remain the issues pertaining to the back end of the fuel cycle however.
Support Green Corporations
Kathryn in MA @ 14
are you thinking of Thorium? if so, it doesn’t look like a proven technology – yet.
p.s. am i the only person finding it incredibly (even much worse than usual) to refresh comments or post a comment?
The press is full of “we can’t do it” studies. These studies all focus on one thing – supplying energy needs extrapolated from our current idiotic wasteful usage.
If you replace a 100W bulb with a 15W equivalent, you haven’t just saved 85W from being generated, b/c the transmission lines wast 8%. And the generation may have wasted as much as 40% (older oil / coal plants). You may have saved 140W from being generated.
All those “instant on” appliances? Put them on external switches. Most use 40% as much juice while “off” as they do while “on”.
Did you know a 5W stereo can produce the same volume as that 200W junk you bought at Circuit City? (Sigh, that one won’t be cheap, though it could be.)
Our cars are so heavy, only 10% of the fuel is used to transport the passengers. The rest is all car.
Want to know more? Start with Paul Hawken’s Natural Capitalism.
/rant
realworld @ 30
I think a carbon tax will be necessary. No sure who you set it or phase it in, but I don’t see how you move the transition without this.
I also agree that an important second question is: what do you do with the revenues from the tax. Rebates to deal with the dislocation has a lot of appeal.
Timonium sounds like it belongs on the periodic table.
Scarecrow, thank you for the kind words.
I have been more focused on the peak oil problem than the solar solution I am afraid, but according to the Solar Energy Industries association:
“PV has recently exploded into a number of industrial markets, where it is quite simply the lowest – cost source of power available. These include highway warning signs, rural irrigation applications, and remote electrical and communications devices. Similarly, for any application more than ca. half a mile away from the electrical grid, a solar system will likely prove less expensive than will power line construction.”
SEIA also notes that a typical solar panel costs about $300 and produces about $230 worth of electricity at unsubsidized prices. Which means, we are not there yet but we really are (really!) getting closer. Certainly more R&D would help. It would be equally important to develop the solar market so that as more panels are produced, industry gets more efficient and the cost per panel drops.
I used to know the SEIA people way back when and they are the nicest lobbyists you will ever get to meet; their website is worth checing out: http://www.seia.org/mythsandfacts.php#
The point of this is: to win on the energy issue, we will need people with economic self interest on our side as well as votes. Building a solar industry that shares our goals and makes money can only be a win-win situation.
And that LOSER and DINO Carl Levin wrote an op-ed saying we will keep funding the war….Let’s see how many times that IDIOT appears on Fox noise to spew his crap…what a loser….no wonder the American people don’t think their opinions or votes mean squat!
Pelosi and Reid sent out their lakey Carl(ROVER) Levin to do their dirty work…PATHETIC…I am so over them!
Minnesotachuck @ 36
France is overwhelmingly nuclear. One thing they’ve done is standardize a few designs. They can put up a new reactor in (iirc) 7 years w/o cost overruns. Takes us 20 years and always costs a zillion times more. (But since it’s French, it must suck, like their healthcare. Sigh.)
I wish we didn’t have to have nuclear power plants. They scare the crap out of me: Silkwood, 3mile island, chernobyl.
Minnesotachuck @ 36
let’s just skip the safety, hazardous waste and the cost issues.
we’ve got less than 10 years – how long does it take to build a plant and bring it on line?
I am more than willing to go solar, just not sure how to go about it.
Sunlight @ 42
As I understand it, Nanosolar is building a huge fabrication plant for a new type of panel (actually closer to a film) that halves the cost. At that point it’s a no-brainer.
Someone put up a link the other day about the Norwegians, attempting to use thorium (named for Thor) as it is a very plentiful resource (and of which Norway has lots).
My father is big on solar (only safe nuclear reactor, far, far away, etc). I sent the thorium story to him, and he was very skeptical of the ultimate ability to use thorium for energy.
I’m for all and any regulation and tax on energy. This stuff should have a real price. Food should too, but that’s another rant.
But right now, if conservation could be taken seriously, instead of beaten down by ignorant Repugs who think it’s their God-given American right to waste as much cheap energy as they can, that would have an immediate impact that’s bigger than any of it.
Remember the national drive to get people to wear their seatbelts. Within five years, the numbers of people wearing their seatbelts went from something like 30% to 95%. And the cost was minimal, esp. compared to the health care costs of the people who had to have their steering wheel removed from their face. Why don’t we have a similar campaign about changing your lightbulbs or pumping up your tires? (Answer: the President and his family and friends might make a trillion dollars less).
Boston1775 @ 47
If you live in a state that makes the utility buy back, try these guys:
http://renu.citizenre.com/index.php?c=1179066520
Basically, they’ll lease you the panels based on sharing the buyback (so no huge upfront investment).
Kathryn in MA @ 35
Interesting. Looks like something worth looking into, but it’s definitely in the research stage, and unclear whether it will be practical for power generation. Perhaps it’s a magic bullet, but I wouldn’t get your hopes up; even one of the top physicists pushing for it says it’ll take fifteen years to develop a prototype. (It appears to be practical for disposing of nuclear waste, but the impression I got from the articles I looked through is that the reactor designs that dispose of waste don’t produce significant power, if any.)
GordonM @ 44
Here’s a Darth Cheney irony. According to Joe Wilson they partially owned the consortium that mines uranium for Euro power plants.
Correction @53 Consortium that mines in Niger. No yellowcake for Saddam.
Freat piece, and important topic!
I live in southeastern Ohio, home to numerous coal burning power plants. The argument against the cost of cleaning up ( I mean really cleaning them up, not moving towns like Cheshire, Ohio) is to force this multi billion dollar industry to CLEAN UP THE PROCESS and not off the backs off the workers.
Check out how AEP dealt with complaints from the people of Cheshire Ohio.
http://www.forgottenoh.com/Cheshire/cheshire.html
Generations of people have been taken advantage of by the coal industry via poor pay, poor working and enviromental conditions. Mountain top removal is the latest in a strategy by coal companies to produce much bigger profits and having to hire fewer people.
http://www.mountainjusticesumm…../steps.php
I have been hearing stories about how Dupont is getting folks to sign waivers (as AEP had people living around Cheshire sign) saying that they will never sue the power and chemical companies in the future in regard to health issues. The folks who sign these waivers get an immediate pay off.
One of the best books I have ever read about cancer and enviromental factors is Sandra Steingrabers “Living Downstream”. She mentions coal mining areas quite often
http://www.steingraber.com/01b…..body1.html
Reduce…..”Live more simply so others can simply live”
GeorgeSimian @ 29
I’m getting frustrated with Gore. Unless he runs for president, we don’t really have much chance with either party to face down this issue (or host of issues.)
Good Morning Scarecrow.
Timonium? My 1st reaction (admittedly before 1st sip a coffee) was it might be of the hot-air variety, as from Timmeh, marginally suitable for the periodicals table.
s’cuse while i go get a cuppa a’fore i embarrass myself further…
mui @ 45
And food.
Kathryn is talking about thorium,I think.
I’ve read some stuff that sounds like the 200 mpg auto engine that the auto industry has suppressed.
Kathleen @ 55
Yes – a family member was a design engineer for many of those plants, and later, he switched to service design. IN the days prior to OSHA, I climbed all around coal-fired plants on the Ohio River, as that was where many of the AEP customer’s plants were. That industry screamed bloody murder about adding scrubbers to reduce sulfur emissions, and many plants across the country didn’t service the boilers, tubes (for steam generation) and stacks until the boiler literally blew up. Reagan did more to gut the power generation industry by allowing aging plants to get my with little or no maintenance and little or no real emissions elimination. I remember distinctly how the engineer relative used to scoff that the emissions didn’t have enough sulfur to hurt anyone and the rest was just harmless carbon dioxide.
Cheshire is just a single small tip of a huge nation-wide problem of aging infrastructure, lack of R&D support for renewable energy and power generation, and a consumer-oriented society which rewards unfettered free market owners and shareholders at the expense of workers and the public.
You’ve got to be fricken kidding me. Does this include pasteurized milk for kids?!?
I believe Madame Curie would take issue with irradiating passing for pasteurization.
dakine01
Thanks to your urging a day or so ago, I’ve been reading more about Bloomburg. Well well!
Gore/Bloomburg? uhh huh… i’m listenin’…
50 Jewish groups meet with the Bush administration “give us more time to wipe out Hezbollah”
http://www.forward.com/article…..r-attacks/
Did folks hear or see any reports about this in the MSM
Some theorize that the invasion of Lebanon and attack on Hezbollah was to wipe out short range missiles that could be launched on Israel when Israel or the Bush administration pre-emptively attack Iran.
GordonM @ 51
Thank you so much for this site. While my Massachusetts seems to participate, it looks like it’s just a few towns. I will take some time to really go through it. Seems like a great deal. Has anyone tried it?
In SoCal,
300 sq ft panels at cost of $22,000. With rebates, total out of pocket $4,000 with 3.7 year payback using electric grid as storage device.
In 1965, using solar panels of that era ( ~10% efficiency, now up to 42%), covering the Atacama desert in Chile could supply the entire energy needs of the globe, at that time. Things have changed, but, a giant chunk of our energy needs could be taken care of by solar. Possibly giant caveat: what will happen to the eco-environment under and “downwind” from the solar depleted desert area? Any studies or papers?
Some fella in Michigan has patented a vertical shaft wind turbine that generated 40% more power for the same swept area as a horizontal shaft, with the benefit that, with his blades moving only as fast as the wind, bird strikes are minimized.
Lots of areas for improvement…..
mui
You have to keep in mind that we know for sure that coal kills people every year. Miners in accidents, miners from black lung.
While the idea of a meltdown is terrifying, it really is not as great a risk as coal fired plants are. We’re just used to coal fired plants.
It’s not easy being green. Hydro means habitat destruction. Nukes means radio active waste management. Burning carbon means climate change. Fusion had been 50 years away my whole life. Wind has NIMBY issues. Solar is still expensive, and neither wind nor solar can run the grid. The reason coal is the electricity generation base is just as scarecrow says–it’s reliable, it’s cheap and it’s proven.
We need a btu tax with a carbon surcharge. Use the revenue to add solar generation capacity to every reasonable federal building. That’ll start driving solar economies of scale, and will get the market involved on both ends.
We can’t get there quickly, though. My priority would be to stop the corn lobby before it’s too late–and it may be too late–because ethanol from corn is batshit crazy, not the least bit green and doesn’t do much to reduce oil dependence. But it has a whole lot to do with votes in the Senate from corn growing
statesagribusinesses.Ramping up ethanol production would be an enormous backwards step. We need to stop it. And I don’t know how.
Adie @ 64
It’s about the only third party ticket that I could support as things stand right now.
Sunlight @ 42
Thanks much for the update. Used to work with the SEIA folks many moons ago; the remote applications were the obvious entry.
mui,
irradiation doesn’t make food radioactive, anymore than radiation therapy makes human flesh radioactive.
snowbird42 @ 18
This is a problem.
We have a few “organic” food stores here, but who knows where a lot of the stuff comes from. The only thing I’ve found that I can confirm is locally produced is cage-free eggs produced in SC near my home town.
One day I went on a quest to find local produce and stuff off the internets. Most of the places were too far to drive to.
I think it would be great if someone would start up an all-organic store that sells as much locally produced food as they can find, label them accordingly, and make that their advertising hook. Your only other option is to depend on the odd vegetable/fruit stand.
I think it would be unrealistic to expect that all products the store would sell would be produced locally, but wouldn’t it be nice if you could provide this service to customers who want to buy locally as much as possible?
Of course, transport costs may be prohibitive.
Just tossing that out there. I’m not a business person, but if someone could pull it off, I think it could be successful due to a growing interest in buying locally. And all the contaminated food scares lately might increase interest.
I think a good start would be to open something in Asheville, I could see that being a big thing up there (down there, for you, I think, snowbird!). Maybe not so much here – Greenville is always a bit behind the times.
But A-ville would be a good place to start the experiment.
**side note: We do have a Garner’s here and I think they do try to provide some locally produced stuff. Just wanted to give them some props. Whole Foods is their big competition, of course, but I hope they don’t beat them out completely.
Scarecrow upstairs with War and other people’s children
Redshift @ 52
jayackroyd @ 68
Somehow coal and nucklear still seem like poor choices.
jayackroyd @ 71
I didn’t say that. You know there are there are risks with radiation therapy. And radiologists have long had occupational hazards. (People receiving cancer treatment can actually look like they have been handling radiactive materials on a whatchmacallit.)
And the big point is FDA approving a process that is not the same as pasteurization and falsely labeled as such on products..
jayackroyd @ 71
Actually, the government needs to irradiate food to kill the toxic viruses that the government also puts in the food.
Frank33 @ 77
Then it must be labeled as such.
Boston1775 @ 66
With respect to Massachusetts, you folks up there have to put some pressure on our friend, Senator Ted Kennedy. A man who I have admired for many, many years, he is apparently working to scuttle the proposed windmill farm in Nantucket Sound.
As I understand it, Cape Cod, which would be the chief beneficiary of wind-generated electricity, has some of the dirtiest air in the state (tho’ this does not comport to my memory of my many trips there in the ’70s and ’80s).
-MS
Mandrake – do you have any Community Supported Agriculture in your area? We’re fortunate to have a great local all-organic farm that delivers to several dozen locations in the area weekly from May through November. You pay a membership fee up front, so the farmer gets the capital they need and you get fresh local DELICIOUS produce for six months out of the year. Try Local Harvest to find a CSA in your area…
I’ve just been reading about a process called “thermal depolymerization” or “thermal conversion.” Sounds very promising.
Basically, any waste containing carbon (from manure to turkey parts to plastics) can be recycled into biofuel!
Landfills could be converted into fuel.
Look it up, it’s pretty intriguing.
Michael — I suspect the Cape Wind project will evnetually happen. Governor Patrick supports it. The part about “dirty air” on the Cape doesn’t ring true, because of the winds, but I’ve never researched that piece.
Food irradiation via Wikipedia.
Why would you “exclude power from hydroelectric plants built decades ago”? That’s still a renewable resource, isn’t it?
mui @ 78
Ah, now there I agree. I think that rather than trying to stop this stuff from happening, we should just push for accurate labeling, beginning with genetic modification. If you’re looking at two potatoes, same price, one GM, one not, which will you buy?
ADM knows the answer to that question, which is why they fight labeling. How can you lose that argument, in any reasonable forum? All we want to know is what we’re buying. Let the free market decide–and in all my econ books, free markets assume freely available information.
Mui, thanks for the wiki link. IMO, the real issue is this:
Of course the same is true of pasteurization.
In Michael Pollan’s The Omnivore’s Dilemma he notes that a lot of the extreme measures we have to got through to make food safe to eat reflects the conditions under which it is produced, especially animal products.
jayackroyd @ 85
It says in Wikipedia some people refuse to carry irradiated products. However, it is better to enlighten the consumer and allow us to debate what we put in our bodies or not.
jayackroyd @ 86
Please that’s not the only issue. Beer is pasteurized. So what. Milk is pasteurized. So what. We know what that tastes like, you can do it at home. Irradiation??? Unknown quanity.
Scarecrow @ 82
Scarecrow, perhaps I didn’t describe the problem quite correctly. In and around Barnstable (at the western end of the Cape), there are apparently one or more very old coal-fired facilities which are belching out rather noxious fumes, and which could (hopefully) be replaced or have their use curtailed by the proposed wind farm.
-MS
In fact, we had a problem with ecoli in unpasteurized cider in CT (as scarecrow knows it is a local product.) Boiling the heck out of it makes it clarified, but still basically the same.
mui @ 75
As I say, it’ s not easy being green. There’s a lot we can do in the short run, of course. We could cut 10-20 percent just by practicing conservation. Do you know that we avoided a blackout in NYC in part because Bloomberg ordered retailers to close their doors during a humid day in the 90s? I know a guy who was working the ConEd grid that day, and he said you could see the effect of the order soon after it was announced.
But, in the end, we got oil, coal, gas and nukes. That’s all that absolutely positively always works, although hydro arguably belongs in that list. Nukes are the least bad on that list, net.
Pasteurization via Wikipedia.
spinn @ 84
Yes, of course it is; but the hydro resource are pretty much built out, have been for decades. What the RPS advocates want is a focus on all the other renewables, because you can’t get that much more from hydro, and there’s a recognition that nwq hydro sites mean dams and loss of habitat, etc.
Michael in Park Slope @ 89
Fall River is where one of them is, and there are still some industrial polluters in the area, IIRC.
Also bear in mind that prevailing winds carry particulate pollution from the coal and oil fired power plants in the midwest and Appalachians and carry it northeast over the Cape.
Michael in Park Slope @ 89
Okay. But keep in mind that if these older coal plants are running base load = 24/7, then you need something that replaces them 24/7, not just when the wind blows. If the wind resource there is big enough, and consistent enough, you can do that, but you’d need to back up the wind plants with diesel and/or gas-fired turbines that fill in the gaps.
mui @ 88
We can agree to disagree on the dangers. But we can heartily agree to agree that you should know what you’re buying, that the manufacturers don’t want you to know what you’re buying, and it is one of the government’s most important jobs to make sure that labels are clear and accurate.
And while we are used to pasteurized milk and beer, that doesn’t mean that we are not missing out.
jayackroyd @ 96
Well it’s absolutely sleezy that the FDA will cater to manufacturers who don’t want us to know what we’re buying. Milk must be labled pasteurized or not. Why not label irradiated or not? (Or we can let them use the term “cold pasteurization” and alert the media to what that means.)
Scarecrow @ 95:
I agree, and I believe you have hit on the very problem with all of the best renewable resources: consistency. That is, e.g. no solar energy on cloudy days or as you noted, no wind-generated energy on windless days.
Does this mean that we’ll always need some sort of fossil fuel “back-up”?
-MS
Michael in Park Slope @ 98
We’ll always need something that can produce all the time. Nukes do that; gas-fired combined cycles can do that; hydrogen-based fuel cells can do that, but so far only a small scale. Hence the dilemmas.
My point about making efficiency improvements a priority is that you can at least stop the growth in electricity demand, and also help shape demand — you reduce the problem you have to solve and make it more manageable, for whatever supply solution you pursue.
1. Most of the opinions about alternative energy come from people and organizations with very little knowledge of the subject.
2. The DOE has been strongly biased toward nuclear energy for more than 30 years. It is probably impossible to get the full cost of nuclear energy when comparisons are made to alternative methods.
3. Neither DOE nor any organization that I am aware of looks at the cost of energy from a global point of view. By “global” I do not necessarily mean international but across multiple disciplines. Just three straightforard examples: a. the discharge from an ocean thermal energy plant brings nutrients to the surface that greatly enhances fish farming; b. use of ocean thermal energy for Nigeria would allow them to sell/export oil; c. nuclear power plants in Iran would allow them to prolong the availabilty of oil for export.
3. Liquid fuel from coal is a proven technolgy. If the gas emission is liquified it is easily transported and used in nearly depleted oil wells and other undergound sites. I would explore the potential use in tar sand projects.
4. The cost of liquid fuel from coal is about half the cost of oil. The cost of the additional research for the economical cost of scrubbing can be supported by many government projects. Consider the cost of Bush’s activity in Iraq. Granted the issue is complex and there are several objectives. Nevertheless, no matter how low a percentage of the cost may be attributed to oil it is many times the cost needed to improve clean coal technology. Even if the direct cost of clean coal is not dramatically reduced. That portion of the Iraq cost would be a subsidy for clean coal that would make the cleaning “free”.
5. Coal produces about 60% of the energy used in the United States and there is no reason to envision that that percentage will significantly reduce. Consequently, it is imperative that the country develop clean coal technology whose overall, i.e global, cost is acceptable.
6. Alternative forms of energy produce less that 3% of the energy used in the U.S. Easily twice that amount can be immediately saved by modifications in building design and building codes. Do not overlook the reason the temperate areas of the earth have been populated by the majority of the population is because the average annual temperature in those regions is at or not far from 60F. I am not suggesting that we live in caves but that there are many ways to couple to that temperature and to save energy.
mui @ 97
No we should insist the labeling be accurate, and not misleading. Look what is happening to “organic.” There are now producers who don’t use the label because it is now generally what Pollan refers to as “industrial organic.” Same production systems, just without pesticides.
“Organic free range” chickens never leave their crowded pen, because producer are only required to have one door, and they’re allowed to keep it closed for the first five weeks after hatching. By then, they don’t know that there is an outside.
I do not think Louis Pasteur would approve of the name “cold pasteurization” for irradiation of food. Pasteurization has been a safe, and effective “preservative”. In general, simple hygiene, such as pasteurization (without antibacterial compounds) along with refrigeration, is the best ways to preserve foods.
Of course the current corrupt FDA can be relied on to betray the health and safety American people.
jayackroyd @ 101
Ugh. We need subsidies for organic farmers here in CT. When local farms get sold to real estate developers it’s a bad thing to have to rely on Stop and Shop.
I agree Pasteurization is a bastardization of the term. And labelling should be “irradiated”.
Frank33@102 & Don’t forget Marie Curie as well.
Scarecrow @ 99
Yes, efficiency improvements and, of course, conservation. But it’s kind of depressing that the only substantial and meaningful substitute for fossil fuels (at present) is nuclear power. Nevertheless, I believe that nukes are necessary for the time being.
I remember being at the “No Nukes” concert in lower Manhattan in the late ’70s and feeling SO ambivalent since, while there was general consensus about nukes being “bad,” I couln’t but help realize that the alternative (fossil fuels) was of course the primary source of pollution.
-MS
I do not have a link at hand, but Marie Curie (and her husband Pierre) were great scientists. I think she won two Nobel Prizes. But her experiments did expose her to high doses of radiation, and consequent health problems.
Frank33 @ 105
Just like a man!
Sorry Frank @105, I misread that. Zap 106.
Rocket Scientist @ 100: your #6 is another pet peeve of mine. Heating and cooling accounts for an astounding portion of our energy use, yet probably 80% of the homes in this country, if properly designed and oriented, could use 95% less energy for that purpose. Yet I watch architects and builders put up homes which need heat in the morning and AC by mid afternoon. Aaargh!
MUI, It has been a tough week, and we have McNulty today I think.
The Curies discovered Radium and POLONIUM! (Litvinenko!) They did not discover Curium, which was named after them.
—————————-
Marie Curie was born November 7, 1867 in Poland and died on July 4, 1934. Her co-discovery with her husband Pierre Curie of the radioactive elements radium and polonium represents one of the best known stories in modern science for which they were recognized in 1901 with the Nobel Prize in Physics. In 1911, Marie Curie was honored with a second Nobel prize, this time in chemistry, to honor her for successfully isolating pure radium and determining radium’s atomic weight.
Frank33 @ 109
Sorry it’s been a tough 6-7 days for me too (Starting Friday.)
When was Bill Clinton a coal miner?
REDUCE USE…REDUCE REDUCE REDUCE USE!
It’s true that today there’s little to gain in reducing dependence on oil by changing the way we generate electricity.
But, on the close horizon are plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. For most in-town trips (short trips), the combustion engine won’t even fire up, and the batteries will be recharged from the grid at night.
Amazingly enough, substituting electricity for gasoline in this way has a lower carbon footprint than burning gasoline does. And that’s based on the current American generation portfolio (coal dominant) — it can get better as more renewable generation comes online.
A friend at the California Energy Commission sent me a link to a table showing the percentage of generation by source in that state, as of 2006.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/elect…..power.html
The total for “renewables” excluding the large hydro plants built decades ago is about 11%, but the biggest part of that is geothermal.