Americans were horrified this week when CBS News broke Lara Logan’s story of US soldiers uncovering an orphanage in Iraq in which the children were left naked, chained to their beds, malnourished and generally neglected. How could human beings treat other human beings, especially children, this way? The natural instinct was to pick up a child, and hold them, as CBS’ follow up stories showed our soldiers doing.
How then, can we account for this: This weekend, US warplanes working with Special Operations units bombed a set of buildings in Afghanistan in the belief that Taliban or al Qaeda fighters were hiding there. The initial AP report carried by MSNBC noted that when the smoke cleared, searchers found the bombs had killed seven children. The initial explanations from military spokesmen in the region assured us that this was a terrible mistake, a miscommunication, that military officials did not know the children were present, and that they honestly believed the buildings were hiding only suspected insurgents. Here’s the first explanation:
On Sunday in Paktika province, in an operation backed by Afghan troops, the warplanes targeted a compound that also contained a mosque and a madrassa, or Islamic school, resulting in the death of seven boys, ages 10 to 16.
Paktika Gov. Akram Akhpelwak said there normally is strong coordination between the government and the coalition and NATO, but that he was not made aware of the missile strike on the madrassa beforehand. . . .
Coalition troops had “surveillance on the compound all day and saw no indications there were children inside the building,” said Maj. Chris Belcher, a coalition spokesman. He accused the militants of not letting the children leave the compound that was targeted.
“If we knew that there were children inside the building, there was no way that that airstrike would have occurred,” said Sgt. 1st Class Dean Welch, another coalition spokesman.
But like so many other events involving deaths of civilians, a different set of facts emerged later. In a second report by NBC military spokesmen revealed that when US forces bombed the buildings, commanders knew the children were there, but they ordered the planes to drop five guided bombs on the compound knowing there was a substantial risk the children would be killed. With this new set of facts revealed, the military framed the story this way:
U.S. special operations forces were targeting the leader of al-Qaida in Afghanistan — one of the organization’s top commanders — when they launched an attack against a compound that killed seven children Sunday in Paktika province of eastern Afghanistan, U.S. officials tell NBC News.
According to several officials, and contrary to previous statements, the U.S. military knew there were children at the compound but considered the target of such high value it was worth the risk of potential collateral damage. Emphasis mine.
The rest of the article gives the military’s view of how important the intended al-Qaida target was. There’s nothing more about the children or their families. But NBC did try to grapple with the issue:
Col. Jack Jacobs, a Medal of Honor winner and NBC News analyst, said that decisions to go ahead with an attack when civilians are believed present are among the most agonizing military commanders have to make.
“As a military officer, it is difficult to talk about the calculation involved, weighing the independent variables, whether it’s saving your country or achieving your objectives, while acknowledging that it requires the taking of innocent lives. . . .”
Really? Let’s admit that this despicable exchange proves that Fox’s Bill O’Reilly is simply beyond the pale, and instead have a Jack Bauer/Antonin Scalia moment. Suppose our forces tracked a suspected killer, a crazed religious zealot, someone we believe has killed a dozen people already, and he’s holed up in a madrassa/school. We know that there are seven children somewhere in the building, possibly being held hostage by the killer — “preventing them from escaping.” We have the ability to take out the suspected killer with an airstrike, but there is a substantial risk there will be “collateral damage.”
What do you think Jack Bauer should do, Antonin? Oh, I forgot to mention; the school is in Virginia, and the children belong to Republican families, or Democrats, or Pentagon officials, or German vistors, or the Albanian delegation, or. . . ____. You can fill in the blank. And if somehow that changes the answer, I’d like to understand why.
Update: 3:40 p.m. EDT: A military spokesman said today that the report asserting US military officials knew of the children’s presence was not correct. (h/t to commenter Jeff for this link).
Photo via Crooks and Liars
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zunoed?
Good morning Scarecrow. Thanks for bringing us this, painful as it is to see.
We have a lot of work to do, to turn this situation around. Let’s get to it.
Not how to win friends and influence people. Or as they said back in the day about the Hearts and MInds of the populace.
This is just the natural progression of war – and it makes me sick.
People are murdered every single day – all the more reason to oppose every single war these politicians want to start!
When it comes to civilians – they always, always, try to paint a rosy picture, and only change their tune when witnesses prove them to be lying.
There is nothing more reprehensible than this.
Some follow up reading:
“Collateral Damage is Murder”
http://www.populistamerica.com….._is_murder
What do you think Jack Bauer should do, Antonin? Oh, I forgot to mention; the school is in Virginia…
Actually, the school is in Texas – Ruby Ridge, to be precise. And Janet Reno’s leading the stormtroopers.
What say you now, brownshirts?
Scarecrow these are the very serious consequences of the invasion of Iraq by the Bush administration… (I believe planned)chaos, death and destruction.
Americans do not want to know let alone look at pictures of the reality on the ground in Iraq. It is heart wrenching.
Thank you for helping turn on the light!
Many Americans are acting like many Germans and others who sat complacently by as 6 million Jews, 3 million Poles, Gypsies, gay, handicapped and others were shipped off to concentration camps never to return.
Millions of Iraqi people have been killed, injured and displaced due to the pre-emptive invasion of a country that had never attacked us. What has taken place in Iraq is outrageous, criminal and terribly shameful!
How did Scalia get confirmed on the Court in the first place? Ugh!!!
I haven’t read into all this but I have a quick question…besides the children, how many of the ‘high value targets’ did they kill?
Good morning from L.A. I’ve been following the news out of Iraq this a.m. on the new McClatchy site- worth going there for the blogs alone, in particular Leila Fadel’s Baghdad Observer. Her account of the orphanage story & others (warning- includes graphic photo):
6/19/07- Baghdad Children
Bush, the butcher of Baghdad and other locations. Bush, the killer of women, children, the old, the poor and the sick and feeble. Our president. Bush, the monster.
dakine01 @ 3
Yep, and it’s not as though President Karzai had not complained to US military about there being too many civilian casualties. Everyone recognizes there will be “mistakes” in war, but this wasn’t a mistake; looks like it was policy.
The terrorist-in-a-school scenario played out in the finale of Season 3 of “24.” No schools were bombed. Jack Bauer and another agent went in, found the terrorist, killed him, and kept the device that was supposed to release a deadly virus from being deployed. Using old-fashioned law-enforcement techniques, a room-to-room search.
The excessive use of air power in counter-insurgency operations is just another consequence of the Rumsfeld fallacy. The problem, simply put, is that for the Bushies, everything is about domestic politics, and they’ve adopted military doctrine that was always certain to fail in an effort to limit the number of military funerals.
In counter-insurgency, there is no substitute for having large quantities of mobile ground forces. This is the enduring lesson of the successful British counter-insurgency effort in what is now Malaysia in the 1950s. Every graduate of every service academy knows this. But the Bushies think they know better.
Morons.
Powerful post, Scarecrow.
Just finished the Bill O’Reilly exchange. His hypothesis is that other stations – most notably MSNBC – show more war coverage than Fox because they (others) want to make President Bush look bad. He whines and shouts at Howard Kurtz. O’Reilly is clear that covering bombings is a pro-terrorist decision, and Fox of course is anti-terrorist.
Covering the killing of children is pro-terrorist. Sad.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 7
Same way as Roberts, Alito, Kennedy and Thomas. 50 or more Senators voted for them.
Scarecrow, that last paragraph was classic.
However, I don’t see the link between the bombings and the horrid conditions in the government run orphanage in terms of US complicity in the latter.
Could you elaborate?
Lou Costello @ 8
How many would be “enough”?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..you-and-i/
Nicole has a heartbreaking story up at C&L – very much in line with this thread
Mandrake @ 15
Empathy; we have one reaction to the orphans’ story, but are we expected to swallow the next?
And as for the Palestinians? Well… their children don’t count either. Just a bit of collateral scattered about the landscape known as the Gulag of Gaza.
JeffinBerlin @ 17
yes, thanks for the link; that’s where I found the photo.
Boston1775 @ 13
Why does he still have a show? I really thought that after the comment he made about the kidnapped boy having enjoyed his confinement was so offensive and outrageous that he would at least be reprimanded. Nope, just business as usual.
very powerful post….It is just unbearable, the thoughts of all of these innocent people lives ruined.
Scarecrow @ 18
Yes, I see now. Thanks for clearing that up.
By contrast, the religious zealots who later formed the Hamas organization were more focused on spiritual probity and tended far more closely to the needs of their impoverished brethren in Gaza and the West Bank. As with Hezbollah in Lebanon–and that other Iranian-backed Islamist movement, the Shiites who now control Iraq–the religious movements, both Shiite- and Sunni-based, cornered the market on purity of purpose as opposed to rank opportunism. That is precisely why these fiercely anti-Western movements have been able to turn the favorite fig leaf of U.S. neocolonialism, the slogans of democracy and elections, against the United States by winning popular elections.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..53054.html
Marie Roget @ 9
thanks for that link; her description of the Mahdi Army as “lord of the flies” children is chilling.
you know what?
one of the BEST things about bill clinton was that when he saw what the PEOPLE wanted he did every thing possible to do it THEIR way
pelosi takes a page from bill, recognizing the frustration her constituents show about our caving on Iraq she comes up with some EXCELLANT vocabulllary, calling the war a ‘grotesque mistake’
she needs me on her staff though because I would have added a little something;
“the president ignoring the advice of his military aids and generals, going into this country that they KNEW posed no threat was a ‘grotesque mistake’”
bing
Oklahoma kiddo @ 10
Bush, the “Christian.”
Scarecrow @ 16
I guess we could ask the Col. Jack Jacobs(a Medal of Honor winner and NBC News analyst) that question.
How badly do you want Bin Laden? Or, his top aides? The reality is that these types will seldom, if ever, be encountered out on some open battlefield as portrayed in various WWII Hollywood movies.
These cats hang out in compounds. In these compounds will always be found civilians, some elderly, some women, and some kids. You either strike the compound or let the bad guys go. There won’t be any inbetween.
So there you have a policy choice. And there are no easy answers. But it’s the choice that will have to be made if your goal is to take down Bin Laden and/or his henchmen.
Ghostman
Isn’t it a war crime to intentionally bomb a target known to house non-combatants when there is no active engagement with suspected combatants at the same location? I don’t really know but I would think it would be.
sorry OT…but Move-on raise 355,000 fro Tom allen and Murphy thanks to Joe LIEberman….LMAO…they sent out an email asking Holy Joe to try and raise money for other ReTHUGS….they raise that in one day….,
In war, collateral damage and its unintended consequences will inevitably happen. This is exhibit A demonstrating why going to war ought to be done as a last resort. Not that the braying asses on Fake News Channel would care, even if they possessed the moral fiber to understand. They already have their marching orders.
Scarecrow @ 26
Very welcome. Still reading blogs on the McClatchy site- this one deserves a link also:
Inside Iraq
“Inside Iraq” is a blog updated by Iraqi journalists working for McClatchy Newspapers. They are based in Baghdad and outlying provinces. These are firsthand accounts of their experiences. Their complete names are withheld for security purposes.”
I would suspect that Miss Coulter et al would put on their condescending tone that they save for such exchanges and ask, ” do you really believe that Our Children are less valuable than theirs? They are protecting our children. War is a dirty business.” Something like that.
Personally, I think that while that argument is disgusting, it’s also missing the point, which is that the attack was stupid anyway, and that the children actually died for no real reason.
Ghostman, it’s a false choice. You could send in some guys instead of airstrikes. Airpower ha virtually no legitimate use in a campaign like this.
Collateral damage can only be justified when the wars are justified.
stratocruiser @ 35
This op ed is one of the best explanations for why US commanders in Afghanistan increasing turn to air power instead of ground troops, which they do not have enough of. Her distinction between the goals of “counterinsurgency” and “counterterrorism” explains a lot.
“Hendrik Herzberg wrote in the New Yorker’s April 7th edition that, ‘Collateral damage’ is one of those antiseptic-sounding euphemisms that are sometimes more chilling than plain language, so hard do they labour to conceal their human meaning.”
After all, the purpose of expressions such as collateral damage is to obscure the truth just enough for the speaker to avoid scrutiny for his remarks. On the other hand, imagine the reaction of the parent or child of one of the individuals blown to bits in a Baghdad marketplace and the term collateral damage doesn’t quite seem appropriate to the situation.
h/t takingitglobal.org
apparently, there’s not enough children to harm in iraq and afghanistan… so, on to iran.
via bernhard at moon of alabama, this important story about our house of representatives moving us closer to war with iran with yesterday’s vote on h.con.r.21.
the resolution begins:
just a reminder of what juan cole had to say about this charge. short version – it’s bs.
and here’s the kicker – the resolution had 103 co-sponsors. virtually the entire house voted for it, with only kucinich and paul voting against it. pelosi voted for it , mcgovern voted for it…
can i just say, that right this minute, i am so furious with congress and my rep…. i am incoherent with rage.
how is it that they are doing this, and getting away with it?
stratocruiser @ 35
Send in some guys?? Just saunter up, knock on the front door, and ask, pretty please, will Mr. Bad Guy come out?
Or….”storm” the compound? Ok. Your team must navigate un-covered ground, taking fire, just to get up to the compound. And then, move inside the compound carefully shooting only “bad guys”. And if successful, your team must evac from the compound, taking more fire from the surrounding area.
It’s not a false choice I make. It’s reality.
Ghostman
ochreous @ 33
you have just inspired an epihpame
do you want to know why it was so easy to talk us into invading Iraq?
it’s because of how painless it was the first time…this president’s father got out before the pain began
Like it or not. Believe it or not. Rationalize it or not. Each American shares in the responsibility for what our government is doing. Slaughtering children.
Ghostman @ 40
Yes, tough choices, but if this were a hostage situation in the US, law enforcement officials would choose those options — including wait them out, if needed — that minimize, not guarantee, the loss of innocent lives.
Ghostman @ 30
Yes, those are the only two choices because we have absolutely no tools at our disposal other than airstrikes. That must be why our government has been so successful at stopping terrorists by purely military means.
JeffinBerlin @ 39
Kinda like calling victims of Hiroshima people with cases of just really bad sunburn.
Our country is so far off track – really, the train is off the rails over the trestle and drowning in the rapids which is carrying it over falls higher and mightier than Niagra.
Bush, his PNAC and corporatist ilk brought on the end times – the end of democracy, the end of a free society, the end of meritocracy, the end of compassion, human decency and concern for our fellow human.
All that’s left is a hollowed out shell of oppressed workers, people dying for want of basic inexpensive preventive healthcare, and earnings disparities that make the robber barons of old appear as if they were wearing sackcloth and ashes.
All I can say is, “not in my name.”
America is on trial in the world. And I think we will be found guilty.
dave @ 5
…ummm, wasn’t Ruby Ridge in Idaho? Unless they moved it recently…? Maybe I’ve misunderstood this?
We are becoming like the Germans of both World Wars, who came up with the same excuses for their atrocities (I’m not talking here about the mass murders, which are a different thing altogether). It is very painful to see what part of our country has become. Maybe we were always that way and just didn’t know it.
Twelve more US soldiers killed in Iraq. Dozens more Iraqis.
Ghostman @ 30
Ehh, no connection between Iraq and 9/11 before we invaded (our president even said so).
[Mod: edited to remove remarks about other commenters. This will not be permitted.]
perris @ 27
perris – it’d be great to see the speaker hire you, but i think the rest is bullshit. bill clinton’s policies on iraq caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of iraqi children. pelosi just oversaw the house resolution i linked to above.
“how is it that they are doing this, and getting away with it?”
Because they can. The American people let them.
potential collateral damage as defined by Republikans is a damn shame.
Scarecrow @ 51
The surge is working . . . just give us about 150 more years.
This is why, when I hear about US forces using airpower to compensate for the lack of “boots on the ground,” I give a grim, mirthless laugh. It is absolutely inevitable that mistakes like this will happen, as surely as if I drank a bottle of Jack Daniels on an empty stomach and then tried to drive on a moderately crowded highway. There’s no two ways about it, of course I’m going to hit someone!!
Why does the orphanage story have such a Jessica Lynch feel to it? What is wrong with me?
selise @ 40
selise, the Juan Cole commentary is important because we are being railroaded again. He is simply defending his translation of the Iranian president’s words.
If this drumbeat goes much further, we have to demonstrate against it. We just have to.
Fantastic post by the way scarecrow. You’ve done it again.
I am hearing my dad off in the distand saying “did I ever tell you the story of the boy & the sheep”….
Scarecrow @ 51
Republics are not concerned since no one from their royal family, the Bush family, was killed, wounded, inconvenienced, or even required to sober up.
ccmask @ 58
Nothing. You’re just suffering from a case of war propaganda skepticism fatigue.
Ghostman @ 41
Bullshit. It’s no more “reality” than the wingnuts’ “ticking time bomb” torture scenarios. It has the same quality of pretending you magically have perfect knowledge of everything that would appear to justify your proposed action as well as perfect knowledge of the results, and the event is considered in perfect isolation, allowing you to wave your hand and dismiss all other options (but not yours) as risky and uncertain.
In “reality” you’re operating in an environment where you never have perfect knowledge, and if you’re wrong and cause horrific collateral damage, it does great harm to the overall purpose and the ability to gather better intelligence the next time. That’s reality, and is the reason why using airstrikes means you’re either unable to use better options or you have idiots in charge who are ignoring them.
Mandrake @ 62
Thanks. I really am concerned that when I read a orphan war story the right side of my brain reacts differently to it and seems to overpower the left side. It is a horrible way to live, bny the way.
ccmask @ 59
Thank you. I’d been trying to ignore this story for three days, but it just kept tugging at me, like a little kid.
Ghostman, yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. “Send in some guys” is, not a euphimism, but shorthand for exactly what you say. It’s difficult and dangerous, but as one poster above pointed out, our police deal with situations like this every day.
Sorry for the OT.
I think Deadeye is trying to open a can of worms here;
Cheney declares VP office not part of executive branch: Soon..
http://rawstory.com/
ccmask @ 58
Sounds like there’s absolutely nothing wrong w/your bs detector. ;-(
By the way, wrt the government run orphanage, is there still a government paying for programs such as this and was there electricity in that particular orphange? I feel sick.
The really weird thing about Bill O’Reilly was his continuous confusion of Iraq with Afghanistan. There’s a whole country, what’s it called again, ah yes, Iran, in between. Is this a deliberate attempt by the wingnuts to make sure no-one can say “I understand why we’re in Afghanistan but not why we’re in Iraq. Couldn’t be, could it?”
Bustednuckles @ 67
Perhaps we could have it declared not part of the US government, and have it shipped off somewhere.
The use of airpower in both Afghanistan and Iraq is increasing and is a war crime. If you have not read Nick Turse’s article on this, here’s the link
It’s very important reading.
The military has a legal obligation to protect civilian populations.
On the C&L link – these are friends from GorillasGuides – please consider donating to the Red Crescent – see link in Nicole’s C&L piece – in their honor.
Bustednuckles @ 67
Well, then, NO executive privilege.
Prairie Sunshine @ 73
I like that.
Christy is upstairs.
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..r/#respond
Scarecrow: I keep thinking of how the Bush people and their media friends do their level best to downplay or discredit the Lancet/Johns Hopkins study that showed that one out of every forty Iraqis has died (and one out of thirteen has fled the country) as a direct result of Bush’s invasion in 2003.
Brown people don’t count as far as they’re concerned. Period.
Bustednuckles @ 67
Apparently, OVP is like the CPA: beyond the reach of American law.
Christy has a new thread ready.
Redshift,
“In “reality” you’re operating in an environment where you never have perfect knowledge, and if you’re wrong and cause horrific collateral damage, it does great harm to the overall purpose and the ability to gather better intelligence the next time. That’s reality, and is the reason why using airstrikes means you’re either unable to use better options or you have idiots in charge who are ignoring them.”
When I left the military, I certainly thought that was the prevailing wisdom. Numerous post-Vietnam studies came to the same conclusions as you, yet, something changed drastically, within ten years.
It seems everything was tossed out to embrace everything we did wrong in Vietnam, like as if some group were still trying to vindicate themselves about Vietnam.
Well, didn’t work then, won’t work now.
Mandrake @ 51
Mandrake, apparently something of yours got edited. But just to be clear, I have ALWAYS opposed the Iraq matter. I fully agree with your comment that there was NO connection between 9-11 and Iraq. No argument from me on this issue.
Ghostman
and PW, they didn’t count under Mr Clinton either – remember we are decimating a country already devastated by the sanctions which killed 500,000 Iraqi children – which Madeleine Albright said was “worth the cost”
Phoenix Woman @ 76
Yep — reminds me I’ve been meaning to read up on the huge humanitarian crisis from the refugees in Syria, Jordan and those displaced still inside Iraq. It’s overwhelming. Bush/Rice continue to berate the Syrians for not stopping flow of potential insurgents into Iraq, when the fact is, they’re overwhelmed by the flow of refugees out of Iraq. Why would they want to make that problem worse? You’d think the media would ask Bush that question.
Morning all — I’ve got a fresh thread up and running, for anyone who wants one.
IntelVet @ 80 — your diagnosis 100% nails it:
It seems everything was tossed out to embrace everything we did wrong in Vietnam, like as if some group were still trying to vindicate themselves about Vietnam.
IntelVet — It seems everything was tossed out to embrace everything we did wrong in Vietnam, like as if some group were still trying to vindicate themselves about Vietnam.
Well, didn’t work then, won’t work now.
Yep. They’re still trying to prove they were right.
When you sit down & make a conscious decision to kill children, you are a child killer. Plain & simple.
It doesn’t matter if there is a war going on. It doesn’t matter if you re-label it ‘collateral damage’. And it certainly doesn’t matter if the prime target is important to you.
If you knowingly decide to kill children, you’re a child killer.
And child killers filthy, despicable excuses for human beings.
Bustednuckles @ 68
maybe Godel was right about that inconsistency in the Constitution
I feel that the Army is descending into dangerous My Lai-like territitory. This time, they are being taken there by their leaders far above the company commander level.
Ghostman @ 81
Okay, I appreciate your clearing that up.
Apparently the mods made a judgment that something I said was offensive. I personally did not think I was being insulting other than to say that that particular 9/11 meme was “dog-eared” and that I hoped you were not trying to imply that it was true.
It have the distinct feeling that my presence on this blog is no longer welcome and that I have been branded as abusive which is incredible considering some of the fighting I have seen on here between commenters. If anything, the worse I have ever done is angrily defend the weak from others who make fun of their despair.
I will be sending my check and I will remove my apparently offensive, “intolerable” presence from this blog.
Mandrake
This type of devastation is the hallmark of modern warfare. It is strange that people argue tactics, just as strange as it is that people mouth outrage at another war-crime, when the reality is that the soldiers, the weapons, the bullets, the intent is all American and the damage is dead foreign children.
The truest speculation possible here is to place yourselves psychologically in the shoes of someone who has just experienced that devastation, and have absolutely no recourse. The outrage that one feels must be transformed into ….into … into … what? A television show? A lying politician that you know is lying? Another day on the job enabling a war economy?
Children are not the enemy. Outraged Iraqis are not the enemy. War is the enemy.
Please remember this as we send more of our kids to kill their kids, and we continue to build and plan for more and more endless war.
Mandrake — I missed the comment, so not sure what that was about. You are not considered offensive. There was something, perhaps misunderstood, that trigger a reaction. Take a breath, and come back when you’re comfortable.
Mandrake at 90 — What has been asked of you — and a number of other people the last few days, so it is not just you, truly — is that arguments remain substantive as to issues and not get personal. The mods are doing their best to make judgment calls on the fly — these threads and comments do, after all move very quickly at times — and sometimes they may interpret something one way when you may mean it another way altogether. But that has as much to do with reading something as written as opposed to being able to hear it with the inflection that you intend when a particular comment does not indicate clearly what is meant in the way a comment is written and intended.
I’m going to say this again, not just for you, but for every person reading this or any other thread: disagreements on substance are perfectly fine and, in fact, encouraged. Disagreements on facts or information or persepective, equally welcomed and encouraged.
Sometimes there will be misunderstandings as to what people do or do not mean in what they write in comments — and the way to fix that is to clarify that as the thread moves onward. What is not okay, though, is personal attacks on any particular commenter — we try to discourage that wherever we need to do so, and sometimes that may result in a moderator reading more or less into any one comment — but that is the price we all have to pay for having threads that are not full of nasty invective, personal innuendo and flame wars.
It’s a balancing test that we try to constantly adjust, and I think on the whole our moderators do a great job with it. If anyone has a particular issue that they need to address, they are always welcome to e-mail me at ReddHedd AT firedoglake DOT com.
Scarcrow I hope this piece gets reposted when people will give it more time and thought. Only 98 comments.
I think this post needs to go up again. The brutal reality in Iraq needs more attention from all Americans.
Just got here, have not read the comments.
Bill Richardson is the only candidate to date on record: Out of Iraq NOW, no ifs, ands, or buts, totally and ALL.
This is the only Democrat I shall consider voting for for Office of President. All others, I shall not be bothered, and never ever for a Republican.
Back to catching up…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
I know there is a new thread but dave @5 needs to educate himself.
I love the utter certitude with which he expressed the eye-poppingly incorrect. No wonder the Right’s conclusions are so disastrous.
There is no more ungracious a concept conceived by the mind of man than ‘acceptable collateral damage’. It invites instructive consequences of enormity.
“Shock and Awe” Roadkill
I intend to use this pic as often as possible.
“Collateral Damage”
Blood on the streets
Oh, yeah, one more thing to the mods before I check out for good. I find it interesting that you would censor my comment in such a way that it would appear to other readers that I had been abusive to the other commenter, which I most certainly was not.
I admit I made an unfortunate comment to fahrender the other day which I regretted immediately but I couldn’t take it back b/c I cannot edit here. But he had made a nasty comment to a lady who was despairing and discouraged and I was taking up for her. He also said people who talked like her “chapped his ass” and made others want to give up and stop trying. I thought that was extremely insensitive (and he has yelled at me in the past as well, btw) and it made me furious and so I admit to crossing the line there by bringing the issue of his being a father into the mix. I was called out by Christy and left the thread.
But the other day, when Christy warned everyone not to use the word “Clintoris” because she found the word offensive as a woman, you let through a nice long post from a fellow who quoted her admonishment and stated he thought “Clintoris” was hilarious. He was basically laughing at her. That was considered a “tolerable” response to one of the premiere writers on this blog and it went through without comment or censorship.
Now that’s what I call selective censorship.
And before anybody gets the idea that all I do is get on here and bitch, I have been an activist against the Iraq war since the beginning of the invasion as finances would allow, and that’s with virtually no emotional support from anyone in my community.
I have risked professional retribution for my writings, donated money to progressive, anti-war candidates, written to my Congressmen and Senators, made posters and attended pathetically small demonstrations in my state, purchased and gave away political DVD’s, campaigned for anti-war candidate Howard Dean, hosting house parties and raising money for him, only to be laughed at or at best ignored. I don’t want anyone thinking that I just sit and type and bitch.
Now I have a $600 monthly insurance premium because I had developed breast cancer right before my COBRA insurance ran out, I have thousands of dollars in medical bills, no benefits, psychiatric and anti-cancer drugs I have to pay for, and suffer from bipolar depression. So I may not always be the most cheerful person on the planet.
Check’s in the mail. This is a great site, an awesome site, with incredibly talented people and I am grateful for what I have learned here. I will miss it. But I don’t stick around where I am not wanted.
Thank you for this important post and remembrance of the innocents being slaughtered by our own “special” brand of WMD’s…
Scarecrow, your writing is powerful (as always).
I just finished reading the new book by Khaled Hosseini– “A Thousand Splendid Suns”– he of the “Kite Runner” fame. It’s a great glimpse into the 30 years of the ravaged country of Afghanistan.
I don’t know how we will ever be forgiven for what we have done in this beautiful and ancient part of the world…….
(sorry so late to read and comment, am checking in from the library again :)
…between the American sanctioned torture and incidents such as this heartbreaking one it surely must seem to very large numbers of Iraqis trying to outlive Americans being in their land that we are the Devils and Evil Ones.
Incredibly G.W.Bush seems fully incapable of seeing what he has brought about in Iraq.
This is the America many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis see week in and week out.
For these poor souls what we see on our cable channels such as DISCOVERY CHANNEL as neat and oh so cool fighter jets,weaponry and laser guided kill ability they see where all that leads to and ends.
This is American Militarism and Empire.
We Americans had best stop using Hitler and his Nazi monsters as the standard of showing how much better we Americans were in WW2 or are today.
Because that has become a big lie.
Truth here being we are the monsters doing this and the angels only know what else day in and day out in Iraq.
Saddam did this because he was monstrous.
How then do Americans claim to be better than Saddam when we do this?
Who are the bad guys in this story?
The Americans.
OK K @ 37,43,48,54
You are in top form today particularly @ 37 – exquisite
From a Pentagon briefing dated today:
Q: One more follow-up, if I could. We’re also told that U.S. forces, contrary to earlier reports, knew that there were children in that compound at the time of the attack, but that the target was considered such high value that it was considered worth the risk at the time. Is that the case, and what was the thinking behind that?
COL. SCHWEITZER: That’s absolutely not the case. That’s an incorrect item that was reported. I read a similar report this morning on the net, and some of those facts appeared to be accurate. I can guarantee you personally, as well as what we coordinated with the different formations, that there was an assessment that there were no children on that particular target, and that was the assessment by the military community at large, period.
jeff @ 105
Jeff, thanks much for this link. I’ve put an update and link in the main post.
Kinda like Tim McVeigh, right?
umm..how’d it work out for Tim?
Obviously those orphaned children were better off in their chains and feces than they would have been under Saddam’s regime! Let freedom reign!
When will the majority of Americans stand up and say, “Alright, that is enough. No more killing of Iraqi children in my name. Not one more. I will not remain a partner to this crime. It was wrong to start the war. It is wrong to continue it. It is wrong not to end it now. No more excuses. No more lies, end it now.”
Ted Koppel just did an NPR spot on the chilling child killing. What more can we do than lament?There was a program this week that show a collection of clips of Bush and his lies pushing this war and the apparent victory at hand. How can we not be sick and ashamed? OUr country followed, in some cases even still, an idiot, immoral man into one of the great disasters of history. I do not know how we atone, get past the guilt, around our own helplessness, do anything that looks like restorative justice. Father forgive they know no what they do: But we do know and keep doing. We propose to deauthorize the war. Does that mean some level of troops to work for stability, some future, education, rebuilding. I know we lament: but what the hell next.
Scarecrow @ 66
oooh
Maybe the outcome would have been different if we were to call those possible collateral damage targets “stem cells” or “snowflakes” or something.
Per Secretary of Spin: