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About a month and a half ago, I wrote a kind of “What If We Win?” post, basically asking how the blogosphere/netroots will handle it if the Democrats take the White House and consolidate their congressional majorities. Will we become complacent? Will we be willing to call the Democrats on it if they start to get as corrupt and corporate as the Republicans?
Something occurred to me recently, spurred by some e-mail conversations about how the Democratic establishment knows we have to support them because the alternative is so much worse. I know I’m not the only liberal who is absolutely horrified by the thought of another four years of Republican rule – our troops are still dying in Iraq, torture is in, habeas is out, and Justice Stevens isn’t getting any younger.
But if the Democrats take the White House and retain majorities in Congress, then I think that fear goes away. We don’t have to stick up for weak or corporate Democrats, we don’t have to volunteer for them or give them money or defend them against Republican attacks. If they lose, we can shrug it off with the knowledge that we’re still not going to start any new wars or appoint any right-wing ideologues to the Supreme Court.
And that’s what I want to remind both the Democrats and the netroots of, that if the 2008 election pulls us back from the brink of disaster, then our support for the Democratic Party does not need to be unconditional. If Congressman X isn’t supporting progressive interests or values, then progressives don’t need to support him – the free ride is over. We can focus all our money and time on making sure the Blue America type candidates get elected, and even back some primary challengers against the worst of the Blue Dog and pro-war Dems. And needless to say, we should only give to individual candidates, never to the DSCC or DCCC. The Democratic establishment and corporations can help their buddies, but we won’t. Will that be enough for them to win anyway? Maybe, but that’s not our problem – unless we’re backing their primary opponent, of course.
Of course, it’s debatable as to whether we should even be supporting faithless Democrats now (I sure as hell don’t plan to help any of them), but it will be much, much harder to scare us into donating if the 2008 elections go well. Which makes me worry that the Democrats might tank them deliberately…
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Winner!
Hi Eli, I’ll let the pups know.
my standard answer to any campaign solicitation is that I will only donate to Blue America candidates. period.
For those who won’t back even Blue America candidates, but still want to work on fixing politics: http://www.PublicCampaign.org.
(on edit: Try this link instead: http://www.publicampaign.org/)
They’re the Clean Elections people, and their movement has spread from state to state, promoting public financing of elections as the way to get Big Business’ platinum thumb off the scales.
Bloomberg throws a new light on the situation.
Howie Klein: The anti-Dick Cohen. Turning on the lights, baby!!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 5
Bloomberg is this year’s Steve Forbes. He spent $100 million to win in NYC in 2001 — an insane amount of money, even now — and also had the luxury of a truly idiotic and toxic foe on the Democratic side, Mark Green. He’ll mainly serve to leach off enough GOP support to ensure that even Hillary could win.
eli – i’ve been hearing something like this for a while… just wait until the next election.
not only have i a run out of patience, i’m no longer sure that this is good for the party of the country.
my support is definitely conditional. today.
Primaries – The Democratic wake up call if they get too big for their britches.
Bloomberg could actually take NY hurting Hillary. They are both popular and well liked.
lisadawn82 @ 9
amen.
I have a monthly contribution going to BlueAmerica. I no longer support the DCCC or the DSCC. It’s the easiest way I have found since BlueAmerica does not take paypal. (Perhaps because you have to indicate your employment and citizenship with each donation.)
Eli,
I think we have to make nice with them but make them realize that the club is handy. I don’t think any of them (HoJo exception) would ever consciously tank the ‘08 elections. But some may not be as enthused about things as we are.
But we definetly HAVE to call out the ones who purport to be Dems yet endorse Republicans.
And we can recognize that some of the Dems are in redder districts than others so some issues they may not take a fully responsive position. But we can work from the playbook that has worked this year. We know that folks like Tester, Webb and others may not be fully as progressive on some issues but we can deal with it if they are HONEST with us, with their constituents, and with the leadership.
Call ‘em out if they try to pull a Chris Carney. call ‘em out and bring ‘em down. Honesty should drive all our discussions in all ways on this. We can be up front with the candidates and they can be so in return. They have to be honest in dealings with constituents and the world. No Wm Jefferson’s, no Rethugs. Don’t try to BS us with the Wrong-way Rahm tactics trying to claim caving is a victory.
At this point I’ll vote for ANYONE who’s not a Republican. I detest my spineless congresscritter, but at least he’s got a D after his name which puts us in the majority. We CANNOT AFFORD TO FORM A CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD. It’s what the Repugnant Party is hoping and praying for. I’ll even hold my nose and vote for Hillary if that’s what it comes to (God forbid…). It’s WAY to early to start talking about which not-progressive-enough Democrats we want to get rid of. Maybe if you’re in Massachusetts or New York y’all can afford to do that. Not down here. Not at all. /rant.
Why wait? Let’s begin to reinstitute a system of strong primary challengers. And return Democratic primaries to being Democratic primaries and not Democractic-Independent-Mischief-making-Republican primaries.
We have gotten complacent because we think it’s a take-it-or-leave-it situation. It isn’t. We can vet our own primary candidates, work hard for them and if they lose, we at least put the winner on notice that there is progressive opposition in his/her district.
selise
I agree. Today.
Eli, you are a god.
Twice over.
If I sound a little different, this is selise @ 8
And that’s fine, and I fully agree with that. My main point is that it should be a lot harder for the Democrats to scare us into supporting them even when they’re completely fucking useless.
Loo Hoo. @ 12
The Vote Vet’s actually do a good job also..
1,553 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Eli and the Firepup Patriots:
I don’t think we can afford to wait until after November of ‘08 to consolidate the progressive core of the Democratic Party. There are too many issues right now including but not limited to the war in Iraq and labor legislation that will define whether or not there will ever be a progressive Democratic Party again. And we can NOT afford to allow the corporatists of the DLC to take control of the Democratic Party again and enforce minority, beltway control over the issues and direction of the political life of the country.
I guess what I am sayin’ is that if a candidate like Mrs. Clinton, Obama or Biden were to win the White House it would be worse for a progressive Democratic Party than if the fascists win the White House while Democrats hold the congress. I, for one, will oppose any Blue Dog candidate in my district and I will not vote for a corporatist-DLC candidate at any level including President. In fact I will work against any right-wing Democrat in the general election.
KEEP THE FAITH AND KNOW WHO THE ENEMY IS…NEVER AGAIN BROTHERS AND SISTERS…NEVER AGAIN!!
Excellent post
The evangelical wingnuts have nowhere to go but with Bush, or sit out.
On the left, the Dems calculate (I assume) that they can take us for granted, then appeal to the right with some “long term Iraq” strategery BS….and it is already happening.
Hi Eli!
Eli @ 18
i agree. it’s just that when they’re completely fucking useless, they’re much less likely to win. (perhaps you are refering to this when you mention tanking).
oh…
Dem leaders?
Stop the Trade War and the Iraq Occupation
or:
Denver ‘08 = Seattle ‘99 (with Chicago ‘68 on the side)
Hell hath no fury like progressives scorned.
Thirteen months to fix it.
I think lisadawn82@9 has the right of it. The primaries are where we need to scrap it out, but in the general, we should show some unity. Even if we have to somewhat hold our noses. If we fracture, we’re toast.
Which makes me worry that the Democrats might tank them deliberately…
I don’t see that happening. They’ve got too much to gain by having large majorities. But I do think they’ve not internalized the idea that they won’t be getting a free ride if we do expand our majorities in 2008.
They still see us as an ATM — not an active participant in their governing majority.
NorskeFlamethrower @ 20
Not me, I might hold my nose but I will definitely vote for the dem. In fact me of little means will support the dem financially.
dakine01 @ 13
I *am* willing to cut the red-state and red-district Democrats some slack, to some degree. But I think some of them still vote for stuff that is simply inexcusable, and some of them are just plain crooked, like Jefferson and Wynn.
TarheelDem @ 15
I am all for lots and lots of primaries.
TarheelDem @ 15
BlueAmerica. Howie Klein does a brilliant job of vetting the candidates.
Shadowstalker @ 25
i don’t think it has to mean a fracture – so long as we respect the differing choices that we may make. we’re all on the same side, we just may have different ideas about the most useful tactics to use.
i’ll respect your choices if you respect mine.. fair?
Loo Hoo. @ 29
There would be nothing I’d like more than to see Howie in charge of the DCCC…
Shadowstalker @ 25
I agree. I’ll vote Dem in a general but if they forget who they are representing then it’s primary time. For example, my own Congressman Al Wynn. We are in a solidly Democratic District and this corporate windbag votes against his own constituents. That’s why I’m voting Donna Edwards in the primary but will hold my nose for Al in the general if he beats Donna.
The view here is that Bloomberg is formidable. He’s got tons of money. He’s a successful mayor of the I believe, largest city in the nation. He’s got connections. And many folks are just plain fed up with my party and the Republicans. The impression is that he will draw Republicon voters, independents and Democrats. It’s felt Bloomberg has a shot. I will stay with my party, but I welcome Bloomberg’s possible entry. If I were running my party, I’d be sweating. Bloomberg is no Forbes.
I think which ever party wins the White House next will be held to a much higher standard of scrutiny because of the lies and deciet that the Bush administration has gotten away with. I think the MSM has learned its lesson on the lead up to Iraq and is going to be looking for anything fishy from a future administration. The blogs have taught them a lesson on accountability and will remain vigilant toward future shenanigans. The constant left-right blog wars will keep everyone honest and if the republicans lose the White House in 2008, they still are’nt going completely away. The war won’t be over so it will become the next administration’s war to end so I think it will all go along business as usual.
Eli @ 31
be still my heart.
Shadowstalker @ 25
I agree. The most right leaning dem is far and away better than the group of republicans now running.
selise @ 34
wouldn’t he have to first, you know, win a seat in Congress?
punaise @ 36
Yeah, that would totally suck…
punaise @ 36
yeah. can he be mine?
Eli @ 31
He’d have to get elected first…After all that is the Dem Congressional Campaign Committee…
I’d like to see Gore in charge of the government.
thinking further….
isn’t this year (not an election year) the best time to be vocal about holding our party accountable?
We may as well reconcile ourselves to purging DLC’ers – they have no problem selling out working Americans.
I find it sadly unsurprising the newly elected Dems are lining up on K street and making back-room trade deals.
Getting in power is half the equation – putting it to good use is the other.
Only my support of the constitution is unconditional.
selise@30…
Absolutely!
I personally lean towards Hillary…whatever else you can say about her, the goopers are afraid of her, it shows in every stance they take. But I do understand the distaste of many of us Dimmycrats toward her shifting stances. I just don’t want the lingering distaste to wind us all up with the Ghoul or another b-list actor in the White House.
From the last thread
dakine01 @ 135
The person who won seems really sweet, and is a gracious winner. She is the one who compiled the playlist of entries that I linked to earlier. And she left nice comments for Demetrius on his video.
And her video did some clever storytelling beyond what’s actually in the song.
Daughter in Ohio was really hoping to get her hands on that iPod, of course. :) But I suppose having a professional animator come in first could have discouraged ordinary fans from participating in future contests.
selise @ 42
seems like a good time to me.
I’ve been dialing.
I wonder what Gore thinks of Bloomberg?
I think Gore could take Bloomberg.
OT, but Richard Cohen’s article pissed me off so much that I had to write him this:
How long was Brewster Jennings in business before Novak’s column?
How long were they in business after his column?
What was their specialty?
How many offices and employees did they have?
Why was their information important to the US in the run-up to the Iraq War?
The answers to these questions cause me to know why there WAS an underlying crime. I didn’t learn any of this from your columns, or in the Washington Post. I learned it on the blogs, and it has all ended up to be true.
Perhaps you get your “facts” from cocktail parties. I get my facts from people who go out and dig it up — often for free. If they make a mistake, they are called on it in minutes. That’s why your audience is dwindling, and why the sites I visit are flooded with visitors looking for real news.
You, on the other hand, can just repeat what David Broder, Tim Russert, and all of Scooter’s other friends are saying about him, without apparently doing any research whatsoever. Plus, you get a nice salary! In some circles, that’s called a sinecure. Now you know what it was like being a publicist for the Ottoman Empire in 1912.
Have you thought about retiring? You should.
Sincerely,
Veritas78
Oklahoma kiddo @ 41
it was the best 8 years of my 28 as a Fed. hoping for 8 more. accept no substitute.
Renee in Ohio, what contest are you guys referring to? And who the hell is Digby, anyone?
Good evening my friends. Great questions Eli.
The irony of it all is that the Democrats were elected last November to stop the war. But today we have more soldiers in Iraq, more violence and more body bags.
TiredFed @ 51
What kind of a fed are you?
Loo Hoo. @ 51
I think Digby is Spartacus. Or possibly SpartaKos.
Shadowstalker @ 44
well, just so long as you recognize that some people here won’t be supporting her (possibly even in the general)… and are willing to respect that… i won’t ever give you a hard time about your choice.
Good for you, Veritas.
AP – Pushing back against the Democratic-led Congress, President Bush intends to veto a bill Wednesday that would have eased restraints on federally funded embryonic stem cell research — work that supporters say holds promise for fighting disease.
This man Bush is a lunatic.
diogenes @ 42
The Democrats have to take over the government, and we have to take over the Democrats. But not necessarily in that order.
Loo Hoo. @ 12
This is exactly right. It was my modus operandi last year because of the way Rahm Emmanuel f*cked over Tammy Duckworth and others using millions of DC?CC money to support a DLC candidate who lost. Can we take Rahm out to an ice island somewhere in the Arctic Ocean and leave him there? No, wait, that wouldn’t be nice. Surely we can use his energy and drive somewhere during the primary season.
Bob in HI
marshen @ 34
I hope you’re right, but I expect that Democrats will be held to a higher standard, and Republicans will be compared favorably with Bush.
selise @ 23
Useless like allowing Rice to ignore subpoenas?
Or useless like allowing people, lawyers, who have testified under oath, to change their testimony when they are caught out lying to congress?
Or useless like…… ahhh WTF is the use?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
Nope, just evil.
I don’t normally waste my time with TV, but Lewis Black is on Comedy Central at 10.00 EDT
Phil K @ 62
No, the repubs comparison of choice is Ray-guns. On Tuckery this afternoon, David Shuster was hammering David Dreir about rudy’s family problems, how his kids have pretty much disowned him and Dreir’s response was that just made Rudy more like Ray-guns for him…
Eli @ 60
For all election cycles to come.
TexBetsy @ 64
Well you know sometimes I get carried away with my politeness. ;0)
Yeah, James. What is the deal with people under subpoena in a congressional hearing getting a chance for do-overs. Jeez, would I get that chance? Just throw anything against the wall and if it sticks, fine. If not, go back to my lawyers and start over? WTF?
TexBetsy @ 55
do you mean, where do I work? well, not to be too specific, but it is something one counts on in their old age.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 53
yah. i’m pretty frustrated..
and not just about the iraq occupation.
also the secret trade deal… also the immigration kabuki…
no reason not to call them on it… the more we educate ourselves, the better we will be at holding them accountable.
TarheelDem @ 15
Exactly. Doing that, as well as working for public financing of elections (again, check out http://www.publicampaign.org), will be a lot more productive than nearly anything else we could do.
The biggest problem is to fight the corrosive cynicism that keeps people drained and renders them unwilling to do the sort of sustained fight that is necessary. And a sustained fight IS necessary, as history teaches us again and again.
Saul Alinsky, the great Chicago organizer (and unabashed Socialist) dealt with the problem of keeping his people together to work on the Big Issues by constantly finding new and easy challenges for his people while working quietly all along on his big goals, knowing that not all — or even many — of his people had the stomach for a long drawn-out campaign unless he varied the tactics he used and kept their interest up that way.
selise @ 71
But who will hold MSM accoutable..
I’ll always vote for the Democratic candidate but I think the two-party/representative democracy system may be permanently damaged.
I’m also very cynical about the MSM finding it’s “voice” again.
Seems only rich folks can run for office and that isn’t right. We’re at the mercy of their principles and benevolence.
The only thing I actually know about Bloomberg, as I was moving out of New York, was that he was FOR putting up huge billboard advertising along the Hudson River years ago. I didn’t like it one bit, so I am skeptical about his choice of business over beauty. In other words, he didn’t mind sullying nature in order to push business. Nah. Not for me.
Loo Hoo. @ 52
This contest. I wrote a bit about it here.
well, that 4th circuit court decision throwing out the Unitary Executive theory looks pretty tasty. bout time, too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
And condones torture tactics. Nazi.
Loo Hoo. @ 69
I think some of the knowledgeable lawyers have stated that the option to revise remarks is SOP for Congressional testimony and has been for pretty much all along. Unlike with a court where ya’d better get it right the first time…
salon.com
diogenes @ 42
Diogenes -
Love your comment.
I’m in total agreement with you here save for one point.
I’m not reconciled to purging the DLC’ers
megacorp botsI’m anticipating it.
And celebrating all its anniversaries.
Why am I thinking of prunes and Hillary?
oh yeah – withered welfare support.
TiredFed @ 51
Yup. I knew quite a few Feds in different agencies who remember the Clinton-Gore years most fondly. It wasn’t that they were suddenly flooded with money — in fact, Clinton and Gore cut the size of government more than Reagan-Bush ever did — but that they were allowed to do their jobs without political hacks obstructing them.
OT – Richard Cohen is going to be live online tomorrow at noon ’splainin himself re: Libby. You can post questions here
Tim @ 73
My theory on the MSM is that they only report anti-Republican or pro-Democratic stuff when they absolutely have to in order to preserve their credibility. If everyone *knows* they’re propaganda, then they’re not as effective as propaganda.
Veritas78 @ 50
Excellently put! I particularly thought that the “publicist for the Ottoman Empire in 1912″ was a nice touch.
Sincerely,
Veritas64
Loo Hoo. @ 69
Only for the GOP, we don’t want to appear extreme when it comes to interrogating their operatives or middle America will think we’re bomb throwers, ya know?
How pathetic is this?
Off to watch Lewis Black
dakine01 @ 55
Oops. I knew that. I read this about him a while ago: A new Republican candidate!
BTW, if I sound a bit different tonight, this was my first post using Windows Vista.
Also, I apologize for not commenting much, I got stuck on the phone.
Bob Schacht @ 60
Treadmill hooked to dynamo…
powering Gov. Dean’s coffee maker.
Phoenix Woman @ 82
I think it was more than merely “allowed,” we felt challenged to do the best we could. remember FEMA under James Lee Witt, or Reinventing Government? (and yeah, we did not get full raises quite a few times but we felt like we were doing our part.) that’s all gone. it’s been replaced by ineptitude, cronyism, selfishness, raiding the Treasury (and the Trust Funds). I just hope we can hold out until ‘09.
dakine01 @ 79
james @ 86
The GOP party are for throwing bombs all over Iraq and now aiming for Iran. We want peace. If they don’t get that, they are just…losers.
No worries Eli. Your post got us in gear !
The MSM is now part of the “Court”. You can write them off but they’re still broadcasting
well, good night all. this is one tired fed signing off.
TiredFed @ 94
good night
Helen @ 83
***
Wow…comments on Cohen’s Libby column today are at 94 pages and counting. How unusual is that?
eli-i will use my chip dip analogy
when you have a new container of chip dip, the little chips will do to dip into it, they don’t matter so much, easy to dip ink, top of the bowl………they are a part of the mix, they’ll do…….you get lower into the bowl, you’re usin’ the big chips and then dip into the little chips to pick them up and eat them………lower into the bowl, you need the big definitive chips to swipe out the container……the chips that are meant to rule………they let you get the last of the dip before you turn it over to the dog.
my point?
do we want a lot of little chips or one big chip?
Late to the thread..
Eli, All I can really say is that I agree with your post 99 percent.
Now where the heck have you been hiding? *s*
Did you all saw this?
Audience Heckles Matthews During Clinton Interview
Phoenix Woman @ 72
I’ve taken to prodding local challengers to Phil English.
CD @ 96
Froomkin through a little slap down of Cohen toward the end of his column today. I sent him an e-mail thanking him for it and told him I had linked it over here and then copied his slapdown into the thread on Cohen that was live at the time. He sent me a thanks…
dmac @ 96
So… we should target the low-hanging chips?
Eureka Springs @ 97
Thanks, Eureka. I’ve been traveling – first NYC/upstate NY to take Coney Island and Museum of Natural History pictures, and my high school reunion/anniversary. Then to DC for my sister’s movie premiere and to take Smithsonian pictures (Air & Space and the Museum of the American Indian, which has fantastic architecture, especially on the inside).
Unfortunately, both trips were governed extensively by Murphy’s Law, and I don’t mean kirk…
The United Nations and the world just got a conscience call about the humanitarian crisis in Iraq. The U.S. Congress, unable and unwilling to do the right thing, may not get a second chance, before the world kicks us out of Iraq, lock, stock, and barrel.
Please don’t miss this new “Independent Report on Iraq” – it absolutely damns our occupation of Iraq, and rips the veil off our self-justifying mythology that we are the surging “good guys” in the face of Arab evil:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/se…../index.htm
Oklahoma kiddo @ 59
Forgive me, Mods……but may Bush and all of his ilk perish of obscure incurable diseases. ALL of them.
Eli @ 87
no longer a Vista(l) virgin, eh?
Eli, are you familiar with O’Toole’s Corollary to Murphy’s Law?
punaise @ 104
Enjoying Vista? WHo likes it?
Wow sounds like a fantastic itenerary.. I used to be married to Murphys law… I let her, uhm, get away.
dakine01 @ 104
I think I used to be…
I gave up supporting the DCCC, and DSCC long ago. I’ve received calls from them and explained exactly why hell would have to freeze before they would be getting one red cent from me ever again. There is no possibility I will vote for anyone who supports the continuation of this f***ing war.
Eli @ 108
O’Toole’s Corollary=Murphy was an optimist…
Vista rawks….
Eureka Springs @ 106
Yeah, the non-travel stuff was great. But then there was the moment on the train back from upstate NY when I realized I had left my wallet behind, and my laptop dying (hence the Windows Vista), and finally my luggage from DC getting lost, and waiting until 11:30 the following morning for it to be delivered…
tbsa @ 111
Vista=Mac OS X circa 2001
Vista is pretty gorgeous, although that could also be the screen on the new laptop, which is pretty awesome in every regard except hard drive (much like its late predecessor).
dakine01 @ 114
Ding!
I’m a Yellow Dog Democrat. 96,000 votes for Nader in Florida last time. Want to run him again? My governor, Christine Gregoire, won by 131 votes John McKay was fired from his USAtt. job over it. Want to see a 3rd party candidate run here in Washington next time?
dakine01 @ 113
So I’ll just stick with OS X. :)
Helen @ 83
Yo Richard……when your esteemed departed grandfather pays you another midnight visit, and says, “I want you should tell me what have I DONE to deserve such a schmuck of a grandson”………what are you gonna say???
[the grandpa ghost visitation was a theme he often used back in the days when his lights were still, um, ON]
eureka at 108
oh my i am cracking up…….yes, i let my former do the same………
oh my god i am laughing!
Vista=Mac OS X circa 2001
Gosh! I think I’m going to install Vista on one of my machines tomorrow! I love all that music from 2001!
Phil K @ 119
I really like how it uses that tumbling bone icon to show that it’s processing something…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 41
gore/richardson 08
Eli @ first post:
If we want to really assume the worst of elements in the Democratic establishment, look at the strategic implications of the Dems actually ending the war, instead of caving like they did. While some of us may think they’d be rewarded for getting it done…I could imagine strategists assuming, instead, the polar opposite. That is, some strategists may have assumed that the Dems needed the war to continue in order to flog the Republicans with the war, since once the war was over the public would naturally begin siding with Republicans on, umm, the other stuff. I could easily see DLC-type defeatists who believe that America defaults to the right buying that kind of analysis, obviously flawed as it may be.
I’m not saying that’s how it went down, but it scares me that I really believe those folks could entertain such a line of thought.
Veritas78 @ 50
nice letter!
Eli @ 122
From the NYTimes. MS to alter Vista due to complaint from google.
Word of advice across the board: NEVER purchase a daht zero version of any software application. You WILL regret it.
Demahir @ 122
Yeah, that thought did occur to me – kind of a mirror image of them voting *for* the war in 2002 to “take it off the table” for the elections that year (that sure worked out well).
Or it could just be the linchpin of their brilliant tanking strategy…
dakine01 @ 124
My thinking was that if it turned out badly, I would just add an XP partition…
D’oh! I can’t even edit it! And it’s on my own damn post!
I am even more pissed off right now!! Frontline just rewrote history. Their documentary running right now, called “Surge”, just stated that the battle of Fallujah occurred, because Al-Qaeda elements had settled in there. Liars!!!!! The truth is that that the U.S. attacked the city of Fallujah, in response to four Blackwater contractors being murdered and dragged through the streets and hung off the bridge in Fallujah, after being mysteriously sent into Fallujah without protection. Where is Jeremy Scahill when we need him. This is currently in litigation. I will not accept this PBS bologna spin. We are not stupid. We have records, and we have memory.
I am furious again today. Torturers and liars. I call Bull.
Demahir @ 124
One of the reasons the meme “Dems and Libruls lost the Vietnam war” was able to stick was the final scenes of the Vietnam war that everyone remembered were the scenes of the overcrowded helicopters taking off with people dangling from them. This was even though the US combat operations had been ended almost three years previously. We had still been supplying the South Vietnamese army and our remaining troops were mainly embassy staff. But the scenes of the panic were the final and lasting images of that war therefore it was all the Dems fault.
PBS Neocon Documentary. Unbelievable.
TexBetsy @ 99
Did see it, Tex. I loved it, and at the risk of being lambasted by everyone here, it’s the reason I like Hillary more today than a month ago.
PowWow, great news. And it takes an international group to finally say this.
About Bloomberg….
I really miss Steve Gilliard’s voice, and he’d surely have something to say about this.
thanks for the heads up, ls, i taped the frontline to watch tomorrow…….
g’nite all………….may we all find our place in this…..in this world..
and i know i posted this too many times already but:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y8a91Hrv1us
sweet dreams to all of us who know how to weep. and know how to show joy. that is what shows us how to lead.
Well, here’s what I think.
I think the only action (or at least the only action I can imagine right now) that would crack this insanity would be for Dem and Repub congresscritters who are AWAKE and ANGRY to resign from their parties; ask Gates, Buffett, Soros & Allen to pay for a solid week of one-hour-of-prime-time TV; the critters spend that hour TALKING TOGETHER about the REAL problems this country faces and all the means to solve them out there that Bushco ignores; let viewers call in to participate; it becomes a national Town Meeting; and then announce a new party, with these elected reps already holding seats in Congress.
That way, there would be NO MAJORITY FOR ANYONE. And we’d have a third party already holding Federal power.
I think a week of straight talk and visions of possibilities would galvanize the nation and attract both state and local-level politicians into the third party, with voters close behind, including businesses large & small ready to ditch this abusive status quo.
I am very much in agreement with the main point of the article but I think we make a big mistake when we say things like “the Democrats” might tank them deliberately… instead of saying Rahm, Steny Hoyer, etc. might attempt to do so. We are lumping all Democrats together, including Russ Feingold and all of the Progressives as the bad guys, portraying all Democrats as huddled in a back room conniving at evil ends. This is simply not the case, and tactically, it is a bad idea. It is much better to call out the individuals and groups responsible, as we did so successfully (on one level at least) with Lieberman.
Oddly enough, I think witholding support from a Democratic presidential nominee (as opposed to working in the primaries) will actual strengthen the hands of the Steny Hoyers in the party. We have already tried this experiment. Many progressives refused to support Al Gore and voted for Ralph Nader instead. They knew Nader would not win, but they felt this would pull the Democratic Party to the right.
This tactic was a complete failure–it weakened the power of the DLC and Blue Dogs not one iota and cost hundreds of thousands of peoples their lives, the US a major city, and wreaked havoc on the US Constitution, our justice system, and the rule of law. The fact that Nader cost Gore the White House did not move any Democrat one fraction of an inch to the left. So I think we should regard the results of the Presidential aspect of this experiment, at least on the level of the final nominee, as settled, and not repeat the disaster.
Jane’s upstairs with the digby ID
Frontline has been hijacked by the Neocons. This is a really sad thing. This is nothing more than a huge fabricated Kagan lie. This documentary is based on interviews with Zelikow, and Kagan etal. I hate to advise anyone to watch this propaganda machine flick, but if you don’t see it with your own eyes, you will never know what lies they are spewing.
PBS. Any respect I retained for you is gone, gone, gone. I cry for this nation tonight.
bobbles @ 138
You’re right, I probably should have referred to the Democratic party establishment, who are the main problem here.
And in an earlier version, I did have something in there about supporting the presidential candidate, although for a different reason – the fact that we need a Democratic president so we don’t have to fear another stupid war or more right-wing judges.
LS, don’t call bull. Call bullfuckingshit.
Phoenix Woman @ 7
So why did Bloomberg switch? I heard he only switched to run against Green.
bobbles @ 138
Even Gore says Nader is not to blame. Gore lost it because he listened too much to the idiot consultants.
dakine01 @ 131
How was it the Dems fault? Ford was the President at the time.
Every Member of Congress should be forced to read the new report by the Global Policy Forum, in its entirety. Loo Hoo – here’s hoping it’ll make a difference, but those fact-resistant-and-proud-of-it neocons have a very tight grip on our government and media and they obviously don’t plan on letting go anytime soon… [LS - you get to skip this report for now… One episode a day of neocon-inspired helpless rage is toxic enough… I know how you feel.]
http://www.globalpolicy.org/se…../index.htm
Even the GPF couldn’t track a huge amount of the funding Congress has appropriated for Iraq – the budgets are open-ended slush funds for the Pentagon. [Take, for example: the $100 billion Iraq/Afghanistan supplemental capitulation bill that was supposedly to fund the occupation through September 30. But at the alleged $2 billion/week ‘burn rate’ of this enterprise, only $32 billion would cover June through September. The massive new order of MRAP vehicles Biden rants about amounts to another $9 billion. So what’s the other $60-some-odd billion for, Congress - huh?!]
United States Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 11: Congress, invoke it NOW.
To say Nader is not to blame is ludicrous. While there were a number of important factors that led to the loss, without Nader, Gore would have won. End of story. He was from my home town. I will never forgive him for his arrogance.
I am not giving money in the presidential election. It does no good. Put the money in the house, where we can maybe change an outcome.
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 145
That’s when the Dems in congress stopped the funding for the South Vietnamese gov’t. It gave the Rs a hook to blame the Dems on top of all the angst and the original “dirty f*ckin’ hippies” and anti-war types. Remember, the mem doesn’t have to be rational, logical or true; just something that allows the talking points with some sick, visuals to capture the base and the non-thinkers.
Shadowstalker @ 25
I wanted to address this. In my state, there’s a lot of cross voting. Republicans vote in the dem primary for the weaker candidate. What do we do in those cases?
those of us with limited resources must choose wisely to send money to a candidate – its great to have progressive groups to assist us in choosing where to send support then we can make a smart decision hopefully ….
We put the bad Ds in jail as fast as the bad Rs, until it’s finally cleaned up. Take the lobbyist money out of the vote.
allright, it bugs me every time I hear it, and I may not be able to nail it down completely just yet, but this “circular firing squad” trope is idiotic.
It sounds like something Karl Rove would think up, some little thought-denying talking point pretzel, some Orwellian doublespeak bullshit.
If you accept the premise, then you are forced to follow along to the pre-ordained conclusion, like if Saddam = Hitler, then of course there needs to be military action.
The image of a firing squad right away is disgusting, and serves like a flashbang to stun and confuse people – like the phrase
“what happened here was a high-tech lynching” – carefully crafted bullshit.
So wait, what are some of the premises behind this little chestnut that comes up so reflexively?
Are ‘we’ in an Army here? That’s who convenes firing squads, armies. Let’s see, the generals in this army must be people like John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, the DeeCee (D) party leadership.
Would they order a circular firing squad? Oh no, they are too Wise, they would never do that.
So it must be lower level soldiers,thinking above their pay grade, stepping out of line, acting contrary to their Leaders wishes, who would convene and do such a thing… why they will only end up shooting their own people!!
And excuse me, wtf, but making a point in a conversation about politics is not shooting a gun at a bound, blindfolded, helpless prisoner, ok? ffs, this is as idiotic as any doublespeak rightard talking point.
When I am done saying Hillary Clinton is a neo-con, and so is Barack Obama, and as such there is no way someone who says “all options are on the table” including aggressive war crimes against another country that poses no threat to the USA, there is no way someone like that will get my support, indeed I’ll get going with making some snarky satirical mocking videos for the YouTubes as the campaign season goes along…when I get with saying that there is nothing like the aftermath conjured up by this idiotic ‘circular firing squad’, ok?
Righteous Donkey Party faithful can recognize the upcoming heresy quickly, and they respond by uttering the magic word “troll” which absolves them of having to think any further, and then they go and recycle a bottlecap and feel better again.
My point is, life goes on after voicing a critique … anyone else here someone who was prematurely anti-Leiberman? You know, the (D) nominee for Vice President?
Why it is ok to criticize him now, but not in the run up to November 2000? That guy alone cost Gore more votes than Nader could ever dream of getting.
And another thing, communities and people identifying as Left, or Progressive, or Liberal, or Alternative, or for Peace, or for Morality, or whatever, do not belong to the Democratic Party, ok? we’re not in that Army, we don’t all wear a uniform, we don’t all take orders and effing salute – have you noticed?
Another fallacy built into the dissent squelching “circular firing squad” meme.
come up with a better one, Pragmatic Donkey strategists, that’s what they pay you for.
Have NOT read comments, but, Eli, I was at YOUR premise in 2000 . . . where the HELL have you and the rest of the Nation been since then?
My god, this is a regurgitation of the bad shit that’s gone down since 2000 . . .
N NO ONE WANTS TO SELL THAT TO A PISSED OFF ELECTORATE?!?!?!?!?!
Killin me . . . someone go off, just rant, and LEAD for cryin out loud . . enuff of this pissy pantsy waisted kinda of political action.
SOMEONE ROUSE THE ELECTORATE WITH THE KIND OF ANGER THE MASSES FEEL!!!
No more sweet tea’s on the porch, no more coffee klutches and beignet’s . . . get a grip people, and get INTO it . . . we KNOW it’s all wrong!!!!!!
THROW THE BUMS OUT!!!
Find new bums . . . (oh shit that was SUCH the wrong thing to say on A Theropod’s Shift).
Harumph. ;-)
Phoenix Woman @ 7
Damn . . . . PW, I fear your posit is at the heart of the matter . . .
I could NOT support Gore/Bloomer . . .
If that’s that the issue at hand . . .
Too much for this Laure to learn on this Bloomie Letting yet but . .
I don’t trust Bloomie . . . not at all . . .
pow wow @ 103
Thanks pow wow, I spread this around as much as I could.
dakine01 @ 149
But I don’t think that there was a single major anti-war demonstration after January 1973…Nixon had already started the draw-down and declared US involvement at an end in February.
Congress only cut aid from the Vietnamese ov’t after it was shown to be involved in massive corruption scandels…pretty tough to through money down a perpetual toilet…with few positive results, even when the money wa being paid out.
Sort of like Iraq.
But you’re right. The Tubthumplicans did use the funding-cutback to the ARVN losing. But the money and equipment weren’t reaching the troops…and the officer corps were hightailing it to Saigon, living the high life, leaving the troops with no command structure.
I say we should
strike for peace instead. On October 10,08 sit down in place. Stop buying. Stay home on election day. Use non-violent direct actions to disrupt the “process” where we simply exchange one sert of moral cowards with another!
And as the “liberals” and true believers of the Democratic Party sputter their “but, but ,buts” laugh at them and say: “There is somewhere else to go!”
[Mod: Stay home on election day? Perhaps you’re new here.]
So, basically Eli, what you’re telling us is:
Swallow that foul taste in your mouth and vote once again for Democrats who aren’t liberals and moderates who aren’t even. After we win big next time, then we can purge the party of the Liebermans, Hoyers, Emanuels etc.
I think perhaps you don’t get it. Those guys are the party.
Economic Progressives are not. If you really want to change, well anything, you need to stop voting for all Democrats NOW and not just the DLC republican lite candidates now. What has hippie-friendly Nancy Pelosi done for the people? Why is an across the board moratorium on impeachment? How is what the ‘democratic’ congress doing more than a show.
You wanna be pwoggies are like battered wives. And you know what: If you take him back this time he will beat the living snot out of you once again.
You are setting yourselves up for failure.
Peace and Freedom.
Prof. G. E. Challenger