Remember when George W. Bush and his minions boasted that Saddam’s ‘rape rooms’ were shut down?
As Christy has already pointed out, they weren’t shut down, they just changed hands.
Here’s some testimony about what US uniformed military personnel were doing to Iraqis at Abu Ghraib back in 2003 (for photos that back up a good bit of it, go here and here). This will be old news to those of you who’ve been following Seymour Hersh’s stories over the past few years in The New Yorker, but I think in light of Hersh’s latest story, we could do with a little reminder:
TRANSLATION OF STATEMENT PROVIDED BY Kasim Mehaddi HILAS, Detainee #151108, 1300/18 JAN 04:
“In the name of God, I swear to God that everything I witnessed everything I am talking about. I am not saying this to gain any material thing, and I was not pressured to do this by any forces. First, I am going to talk only about what happened to me in Abu Ghraib Jail. I will not talk about what happened when I was in jail before, because they did not ask me about that, but it was very bad.
1. They stripped me of all my clothes, even my underwear. They gave me woman’s underwear, that was rose color with flowers in it and they put the bag over my face. One of them whispered in my ear, “today I am going to fuck you”, and he said this in Arabic. Whoever was with me experienced the same thing. That’s what the American soldiers did, and they had a translator with them, named Abu Hamid and a female soldier, who’s skin was olive colored and this was on October 3 or 4, 2003 around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. When they took me to the cell, the translator Abu Hamid came with an American soldier and his rank was sergeant (I believe). And he called told me “faggot” because I was wearing the woman’s underwear, and my answer was “no”. Then he told me “why are you wearing this underwear”, then I told them “because you make me wear it”. The transfer from Camp B to the Isolation was full of beatings, but the bags were over our heads, so we couldn’t see their faces. And they forced me to wear this underwear all the time, for 51 days. And most of the days I was wearing nothing else.
2. I faced more harsh punishment from Grainer. He cuffed my hands with irons behind my back to the metal of the the window, to the point my feet were off the ground and I was hanging there, for about 5 hours just because I asked about the time, because I wanted to pray. [PW notes: Observant Muslims pray several times a day, facing Mecca.] And then they took all my clothes and he took the female underwear and he put it over my head. After he released me from the window, he tied me to my bed until before dawn. He took me to the shower room. After he took me to the shower room, he brought me to my room again. He prohibited me from eating food that night, even though I was fasting that day. [PW notes: During the holy month of Ramadan, Muslims fast during the daylight hours and eat only at night.] Grainer and the other two soldiers were taking pictures of every thing they did to me. I don’t know if they took a picture of me because they beat me so bad I lost consciousness after an hour or so.
3. They didn’t give us food for a whole day and a night, while we were fasting for Ramadan. And the food was only one package of emergency food.
Now I am talking about what I saw:
1. They brought three prisoners completely naked and they tied them together with cuffs and they stuck one to another. I saw the American soldiers hitting them with a football and they were taking pictures. I saw Grainer punching one of the prisoners right in his face very hard when he refused to take off his underwear and I heard them begging for help. And also the American soldiers to do like homosexuals (fucking). And there was one of the American soldiers they called Sergeant (black skin) there was 7 to 8 soldiers there also. Also female soldiers were taking pictures and that was in the first day of Ramadan. And they repeated the same thing the second day of Ramadan. And they were ordering them to crawl together while they were cuffed together naked.
2. I saw [name redacted] fucking a kid, his age would be about 15-18 years. The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets. Then when I heard the screaming I climbed the door because on top it wasn’t covered and I saw [name redacted], who was wearing the military uniform putting his dick in the little kid’s ass. I couldn’t see the face of the kid because his face wasn’t in front of the door. And the female soldier was taking pictures. [Name redacted], I think he is [ethnicity/nationality redacted] because of his accent, and he was not skinny or short, and he acted like a homosexual (gay). And that was in cell #23 as best as I remember.
3. In the cell that is almost under it, on the North side, and I was right across from it on the other side. They put the sheets again on the doors. Grainer and his helper they cuffed one prisoner in Room #1, named [name redacted], he was Iraqi citizen. They tied him to the bed and they were inserted the phosphoric light in his ass and he was yelling for God’s help. [Name redacted] used to get hit and punished a lot because I heard him screaming and they prohibited us from standing near the door when they do it. That was Ramadan, around 12 midnight approximately when I saw them putting the stick in his ass. The female soldier was taking pictures.
4. I saw more than once men standing on a water bucket that was upside down and they were totally naked. And carrying chairs over their heads standing under the fan of the hallway behind the wooden partition and also in the shower.
Not one night for all the time I was I there passed without me seeing, hearing or feeling what was happening to me
And I am repeating the oath/I swear on Allah almighty on the truth of what I said. Allah is my witness.”
TRANSLATED BY:
VERIFIED BY:
[signature][signature]
Mr. Johnson ISHOMr. Abdelilah ALAZADI
Translator, Category IITranslator, Category IITitan Corporation
Titan CorporationAssigned to:
Prisoner Interview/Interrogation Team (PIT)(CID)(FWD)
10th Military Police Battalion (CID)(ABN)(FWD)
3rd Military Police Group (CID), USACIDC
Abu Ghraib Prison Complex (ABPC)
Abu Ghraib, Iraq APO AE 09335
And this wasn’t just done by a few “bad apples”, as Bush’s Pentagon people proclaimed, but was tolerated and sanctioned and directed at the highest levels of the military:
Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said that he felt mocked and shunned by top Pentagon officials, including then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, after filing an exhaustive report on the now-notorious Abu Ghraib abuse that sparked international outrage and led to an overhaul of the U.S. interrogation and detention policies. Taguba’s report examining the 800th Military Police Brigade put in plain terms what had been documented in shocking photographs.
In interviews with New Yorker reporter Seymour M. Hersh, Taguba said that he was ordered to limit his investigation to low-ranking soldiers who were photographed with the detainees and the soldiers’ unit, but that it was always his sense that the abuse was ordered at higher levels. Taguba was quoted as saying that he thinks top commanders in Iraq had extensive knowledge of the aggressive interrogation techniques that mirrored those used on high-value detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and that the military police “were literally being exploited by the military interrogators.”
Taguba also said that Rumsfeld misled Congress when he testified in May 2004 about the abuse investigation, minimizing how much he knew about the incidents. Taguba said that he met with Rumsfeld and top aides the day before the testimony.
To emphasize the point, here’s a snippet from Hersh’s article:
“From what I knew, troops just don’t take it upon themselves to initiate what they did without any form of knowledge of the higher-ups,” Taguba told me. His orders were clear, however: he was to investigate only the military police at Abu Ghraib, and not those above them in the chain of command. “These M.P. troops were not that creative,” he said. “Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority. I was limited to a box.”
Oh, yes: And most of the folks Bush’s buddies brought in to run the Pentagon are nice good hyper-moral Evangelical Christians, just like Monica Goodling and her friends over in the Bush Justice Department. Wonderful.
Oh, but surely the prisoners that got this treatment were the lowest of the low, right? This wasn’t done to innocent people, right? Don’t be so sure about that: At the time that the US torturers were having a ball raping and beating people and taking pictures of it all, it turns out that between 70% to 90% of all the prisoners in Iraq were arrested ‘by mistake’. And guess what? Torture is not only useless as an interrogation tool, it produces bogus information as its victims wind up saying whatever they think the torturers want to hear. So there isn’t even a utilitarian justification for this. Unless scaring and angering the people whose ‘hearts and minds’ you’re trying to win is your goal — then it works wonderfully, as a tool for creating enemies.
As for the photograph from Abu Ghraib that graces this post of mine: That’s about the most mild image I could find that still brought home the truth of what Taguba and Hersh are talking about. Most of the others are worse. Much, much, much worse.
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zed!
w00t!
Thanks PW
And now, can I just take a shower and try to wash this stuff off? Who are these people?
I am, uncharacteristally, without words.
All of us are our troops.. Silence equals complicity… and America has been far to silent.
I keep asking myself..did Bush have to order this or at least sign some sort of approval or was it only Rummy?
No matter how many times I read about this, no matter how many times I see pictures – it absolutely disgusts me.
America is supposed to be a beacon of liberty for all those oppressed people in the world. Sometimes I have a hard time accepting the fact that this country is now the “bad guys” – well, the government, that’s for sure.
Torture, rape, and the like, is totally repugnant to the ideals of a free society. It’s morally wrong, and there’s nothing in the constitution that allows these people to do this.
period.
Some follow up reading if anyone’s interested:
“Should the U.S. Military be Allowed to use Torture?”
http://www.populistamerica.com…..se_torture
May the good Dog/Goddess/Gaia/(insert name of supreme being of choice here) give these people who perpetrated these acts in the name of my country their just treatment for their actions.
I can only read a little bit before my brain short circuits.
I constantly question myself: at what point do I resist all of this? I work everyday and pay taxes for this behavior to be done in my name. What shocking images or stories will it take for me to quit my job and stop paying taxes?
Mutant Poodle @ 4
——————————-
These people are
George W Bush
Dick Cheney
Condeleeza Rice
Donal Rumsfeld
Orchestrated by Karl”miss Piggy” Rove
i remember back in dec 2000, i was traveling and i woke up and heard the local news and got word of the elections and supreme court decision back home, and i thought, “holy shit, we just screwed our country”… i had no idea how much of a ridiculous understatement that was…
i remember all the interviews of people after 9/11 and a common question was “why do THEY hate us?”.. i guess if you’re ill informed of the world, you can ask that question… except now its multiplied ad infinitum…
we live in a much different world, much more dangerous world, and not because of 9/11, but because of g.w… unfortunately, there’s no rewind, and no matter who next buys their way into office, that’s a done deal.
amy goodman interviewed sy hersh for democracy now! today.
In Bushworld, the more enemies the better. Infinite enemies=infinite war=infinite profits for BushCo. It’s as simple as W.
Here is what is really striking me…(smacks forehead, ouch)
There….is….not…one….reference…to…any…interrogation…questions…being …asked…anywhere…in…this…testimony.
This was not about gaining intelligence. This must have been about setting an example…go tell your friends, if you survive, how badass the U.S. is. This is an act of dominance, shock and awe. It goes along perfectly with the M.O. of the Neocons.
High Crimes and Misdemeanors. I’m sick.
Those tapes need to be released. Somebody needs to leak ‘em.
These techniques come from the North Koreans. They became part of Navy Seal training, where they were exposed to these techniques in order to be better able to resist them.
It is very important to realize that these techniques were not used by the N Koreans or the Vietnamese (or the Soviets or the Spanish Inquisition) in order to elicit accurate information. They were used to force people to make false confessions.
This is not, and never has been, about intelligence. These techniques, especially when they are essentially randomly applied, are intended to instill terror into the populace. They are not intended to extract accurate information, as anything you read by interrogators will tell you.
Saying “take the gloves off” is not a statement that means “get accurate information.” It’s a statement that means “get me something I can use.”
The criminality of these people doesn’t really beggar the imagination. The 20th century was a very rough time in this regard. But I never thought it could happen here. And to see the media, the democrats and the courts wringing their hankies while these thugs destroy my birthright has me pretty frickin’ angry.
Don’t ask, don’t tell.
Don’t ask (yourself what you are doing if you are ordered to torture), Don’t tell (Rumsfeld in a way that makes it hard for him to deny it).
Not really OT but more good lord save us. Andrew Sullivan from HuffPost: Scalia uses Jack Bauer to explain constitutional efforts “Jack Bauer saved LA…”
Phoenix Woman:
You say:
“And guess what? Torture is not only useless as an interrogation tool, it produces bogus information as its victims wind up saying whatever they think the torturers want to hear.”
I’m skeptical of this assertion, though if you point me to empirical studies — if such things exist — I’m all ears. What’s indisputable, however, is that torture has been historically used to elicit false confessions, and our current rulers seem to feel they have plenty of incentives to seek them, too.
LS (13) pegs it. This was not interrogation. This was criminal abuse, justified by an illegal war.
dakine01 (17) — Oh, I wish Scalia would say things like that just a couple more times. Then I’d say we have solid grounds for impeachment because Scalia cannot separate fantasy from reality.
brendan @ 18
Aren’t you agreeing with PW? Sounds like the same difference to me.
dannyM @ 8
I heard Chris Hedges (author of American Fascists) say he was going to stop paying taxes – I wonder how that’s going.
It is a sad simply fact that our current rulers relish the torture being carried out in the name of the citizens of this country. There is no other explanation for it.
LS @ 3
Thank you for being willing to read it.
LS @ 13
Of course. That’s the only reason to torture people. You don’t get any useful information out of anyone by torturing them.
Impeach now. And send the lot of them, including those who have left office already, to the Hague.
They’ve forfeited any claim to being law-abiding citizens; now they can forfeit their citizenships. (And their ill-gotten fortunes: give the money to those they’ve injured.)
LS @ 20
And if Brendan clicks on the link, there’s the evidence he seeks.
alan shore on Gitmo:
“Brilliant!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEI8u0GlVHk
Guess there won’t be any substantial “investigations” about this shit- it would bring the house down in Iraq if the Iraqis ever get the complete truth- including who ORDERED this shit.
Clusterfuck has been a teflon president.
It’s also pretty sick how they’ve gone after Taguba. They retired him! For doing what he was ordered to do! wtf is that?
And the other sickening thing about this torture is that they spun it in the press so that a lot of people wanted it to go on. Americans were cheering for this stuff because they were told it made them safer and they thought it was tough. If you opposed torture, you were weak.
Michael Boldin @ 6
You know a similar line of questioning was going on on the Washington Journal this morning.
What blows my mind is that we are even discussing the “question of torture” – why are we even having a discussion about whether it should be used or how much abuse equals torture, how much torture is too much, etc.
It’s a staggering indictment of what we’ve become thanks to the creature currently inhabiting the office of the president of the united states and the countless fools, both prominent and pedestrian, who followed his lead and fell headlong into war fever.
Franco @ 9
“These people” do this in the name of protecting me, my family, and my country. But there are no words to express my shame in being “protected” in this way-through humiliation, torture, rape.
Our government has used these techniques with impunity against our supposed enemies. What is to stop them from using it on us, the citizens who oppose this government? For it is down this road that fascist governments seek to consolidate and enforce their power. And they do it in the name of protecting us from some unseen, but horrible, enemy. But is there anyone who doubts that the Bush government is intent on establishing a fascist dictatorship? Rove’s permanent Republican majority is simply a polite way of saying dictatorship.
That is the true horror of “these people”-that they would not hesitate to torture, humiliate, and fuck their own citizens.
Phoenix Woman @ 23
Maybe you should send this directly to Pelosi and Reid etal. This must be dealt with. No more Mr. and Mrs. Niceguy. Anyone with the power to stop these people, but who allows them to remain in power, condones this behavior and is on some level complicit. This administration needs to be appropriately charged to the highest degree of the law. Start with Gonzo and work our way up. This is not politics, this is not American.
Mandrake @ 21
again, I give you alan shore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osl2sIerAbk
Leahy, Waxman, Conyers. Get Taguba in for an “interview” ASAP. Then throw the book at the lot of them. Throw 10 books at them.
Great post, PW. How shameful.
If you’re looking for some images, I think Fernando Botero’s art is quite powerful.
We need to keep this torture topic up front and center, until we see them held to account for this. If some politician starts with the “let bygones be bygones…thingy, I’m gonna blow a gasket”. I’m serious.
selise @ 11
Selise — were you able to track down a feed for the confirmation hearing on the CIA counsel?
LS @ 13
Yup. Remember, these are the people who say things like this:
There has got to be some kind of legal followup on this. The criminal investigations have to be re-opened, and the already convicted underlings have to be persuaded to talk. I have no idea who makes investigation/prosecutory decisions in the armed forces, but this whole thing stinks cover-up to high heaven.
And wasn’t Gen. Janice Karpinsky making similar allegations when she was speakng out?
They go after our citizens. They really are living up to Prescott Bush’s allies. First they start with the smaller stuff, then they up the ante. This link is to retaliation of an American soldier/citizen:
http://www.alternet.org/story/50191/
There was a “regime change” in Iraq.
It plainly was not for the better too.
Donald Rumsfeld. American War Criminal.
When does his ordeal begin?
These photos leave one numb.
American Empire. Here is what it looks like to the Iraqis in the millions for certain.
That new “citadel embassy” the Americans plan on holing up in now being completed in Baghdad?
It surely will be the focal point of much Iraqi resentment,hatred and desire to undo.
These photos are what we are seeing. How much as been done otherwise in Iraq under American control or influence? By official American units? By the American mercenaries?
G.W.Bush,Dick Cheney and the gang of warmongers they run with should all have to be in one room together and view these terrible photos together.
Then be asked how they would feel about having this stuff done to them or their family members?
The Bush/Cheney war gangsters should all have to in public formally apologise to the Iraqi nation for this deplorable,reprehensible conduct.
Americans should pay war reparations for this.
Americans should leave Iraq. We have done no good there. Desecrated our own flag while at it.
Then ongoing,deep and wide investigations started to excavate the real chain of decision making that led to this barbaric conduct.
I hope the G.W.Bush “presidential library” has a prominent display of these photos.
They surely will belong on display there.
These Bush people are absolutely despicable. I don’t know what else to say. They almost make me ashamed to call America home.
And people are even considering Ghouliani????
Ghouliani Time:
http://www.cnn.com/US/9708/14/police.torture/
I cannot believe that the military of the United States of America would engage in this type of barbaric behavior. To this very day, I feel a burning shame. I want the people high in the chain of command who are responsible for this in prison for the rest of their lives.
scarecrow @ 37
this is what i learned from my phone calls this morning:
- senate intelligence committee doesn’t do feeds.
- capitolhearings wasn’t going to do the audio (they chose the senate foreign relations committee hearing instead)
- cspan was scheduled to do video of the hearing, but not for live broadcast… the plan is to show it on c-span tv later, but the schedule had not been set when i called this morning. i’m going to wait until after 4pm this afternoon and call back to see if there is a schedule yet.
- once c-span has shown their video on tv, it will be placed in their online video archive.
I continue to be stunned by this torture and rape. It appears that these soldiers – or whatever they were – did enjoy this and seemed to not be asking for information at all. I go all the way back to the Roosevelt administration and I have never seen anything like this. My heart hurts for my country and it sickens me that this is being done in my name by people I detest. WE MUST STOP IT NOW!
LS @ 20
Of course I’m agreeing. I’m just saying there are two separate arguments, one of which seems stronger but isn’t often addressed in what little public debate there is about this torture.
I sent the link for this to the Speaker’s e-mail, along with some comments (including asking for impeachment back on the table).
P J Evans @ 48
Do you have to be from CA to send it there?
brendan (18) — Study says torture doesn’t work
Granted, this study applied game theory to obtain its outcome. But if humans have been challenged to obtain empirical evidence in the two-thousand plus years they have been using torture to obtain intelligence, does this not suggest that torture itself is so iffy that it is not worth the downside?
If we have to even consider applying a moral question as to whether it is effective and whether the price is too high, is this not enough of an indicator of torture’s inappropriateness for the stated purpose of intelligence gathering?
Another point that bothers me in the entire argument for/against torture is that the subjects are objectified, dehumanized even in the course of discussing torture’s effectiveness. We don’t talk about their physical pain, their mental anguish, permanent or temporary damage to the physique and psyche, to the family and community of the tortured.
Agh. It’s just plain wrong. No studies needed.
LS @ 36
We have to or this behavior will escalate to be considered the norm. Just like those who reply to surveillance of phone calls and internet communications with “it’s ok, I have nothing to hide.”
As I said above, right now we are all the torturers… soon we will all be Jose Padilla.. if indeed we are not already.
So much of this behavior, I think, goes back to the total destruction of critical thinking that has been one goal of the right wing. Our public schools have been systematically purged of Social Studies, History, Creative Writing, Languages, Art, Music and anything else that might help kids to think outside the box created for them. This is how they get their Grainer’s, and England’s. And I believe that this is no accident. Dumbing down schools yields automatons, unable to sympathize with anyone who is different, and who make no waves. Good corporate slaves, who think unions are for weaklings and misfits who want to take their jobs away. Fox News-hounds who think that Bill-O is always right and that George W Bush is a hero. And that torturing Iraqi’s is their “Christian duty”. This is all part of their class war, producing a whole population of incurious worker-bees who won’t know, or care, that they are second-class citizens. Just look at the people who for the TSA, making life miserable for anyone who doesn’t own a private jet, and convincing all who visit this country that we don’t want them here.
Sorry, just had to get that out of my system. I get so angry it makes me physically sick.
Not if you go to the one for the Speaker http://www.speaker.gov/contact/ , not her congressional page. They ask for zip code, but I think it’s just to make sure you have one.
This all goes back to a president who is WAY over his head, intellectually, managerially, morally, and most importantly- spiritually. He’s out of his depth- he can’t think about details- so he just orders up the BIGGEST reaction he can think of.
Jesus Christ.
I’m so furious I don’t know what to say.
Furious.
This needs to be exposed and investigated till the cows come home. Then people need to be prosecuted for war crimes,LOTS of people,all the way to the top.
This is what my country has become,unspeakable.
AP:
WASHINGTON — The Army is considering whether it will have to extend the combat tours of troops in Iraq if President Bush opts to maintain the recent buildup of forces through spring 2008.
Woodhall Hollow @ 39
Yup, yup and yup.
P J Evans @ 53
If you need a zip code for Nancy P. just 94115.
When this subject is brought up to the torture supporters, they always counter with the, “Well, what if they have a nuclear bomb that they are going to detonate in your city tomorrow, don’t you want to get the information????” bulldooty. The thing is, this is about dominance. It is about terrorizing a nation into submission. The Shock and Awe booklet describes their agenda and M.O. If it works over there (which it isn’t, hence the resistence), they will use it here. They need to be stopped and arrested. Now. Before they bomb Iran. There is plenty of evidence out there of their heinous acts and cover-ups.
It must be pointed out that these people were not being interrogated, they were being dominated and tortured, period.
Iraq has been destroyed by these people. Cavelierly and intentionally. In my bones, I knew this would be the outcome of this war when I woke up one morning in April 2003 to the news that the Iraqi museum was being looted.
Everything that has either been done by US forces, or been “allowed” to occur by US forces seems to be part of a conscious strategy to break the will of the Iraqi people.
Sick, perverted, and criminal. And Evil, as in Hannah Arendt evil, in that it seems to feed on itself, for its own sake, without any rational rhyme or reason.
There is really no reasonable doubt that under Bush torture bacame a deliberate policy of the United States of America- there is a paper trail- a track record., The bastards each blessed the thing all the way up and down the ladder. They have no excuses.,
Did they order up rape? No- but they ordered up behaviors that made it clear that there were no more rules- which opened the cages of the beasts- and the rape followed as night follows day.
The Middle East is exploding.
WASHINGTON – President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Tuesday sought to bolster Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, calling him a moderate voice and the only true leader of the Palestinian people.
“I’m going to make every possible effort to cooperate with him,” the prime minister said. Bush called Abbas “the president of all the Palestinians” and “a voice for moderation.”
Of course we have recently learned that everything Bush did- he did because he believed that it was in the best interests of the US of A.
Sadly- this might even be true.
rwcole @ 61
In other words, they ordered up rape, torture, death, destruction, ethnic cleansing and other assorted genocidal mayhems.
Anyone may contact Speaker Pelosi here..
http://www.speaker.gov/contact/
“Son, you got a panty on your head.”
No wonder these people hate us so much….
Woodhall Hollow @ 64
Death, destruction and ethnic cleansing also apply to NOLA.
Franco @ 9
——————————-
These people are
George W Bush
Dick Cheney
Condeleeza Rice
Donal Rumsfeld
Orchestrated by Karl”miss Piggy” Rove
You left out Gonzales & Yoo (and as much as I despise him, probably unfairly included Rove).
LS @ 59
To which I reply, If they have a nuclear weapon in my town that they are going to use tomorrow, somebody f*cked up their jobs a hundred different ways to Sunday LONG BEFORE that weapon ever arrived my town, and torture isn’t going to fix those f*ckups.
How freaking lame an argument that is. They need only look at the 9/11 timeline, at all the opportunities that we had to change the critical path…torturing the 20th hijacker was closing the barn door after the entire herd was auctioned off within the borders of a neighboring country and eaten for dinner.
Mary McCurnin @ 68
And by death, I meant murder, which applies to both Iraq and NOLA.
I just keep hearing those compassionate conservatives clapping & cheering when torture & Gitmo came up during the debates. Where is the social conscience of these people? Where are their spiritual leaders?
Gunga Djinn @ 69
Also Addington
and General Odierno
I read a few months ago the guy with the torture dog who was almost prosecuted at one point.. was at that time free of all charges and headed back to Iraq, with his dog.
We shouldn’t think this is not happening today.
Rayne @ 70
My response is that if they are so concerned about nuclear weapons, then something needs to be done about Pakistan, which has multiple weapons and is a time bomb of a disaster waiting to happen, and much more dangerous than any potential “dirty bomb” threat.
Rayne @ 70
Well said. I just fired off an email to Pelosi’s office, with a link to this post.
LS @ 59
Especially since, as I mentioned in the post, between 70 to 90% of the people in Iraqi prisons and jails at the time had been arrested “by mistake”.
The other thing the righties say when you attempt to talk about this stuff is “Oh, NOW you’ve done it! The Iraqis now know all about it, because YOU talked!” Which is utter bullshit, because the Iraqis know more about than we ever will — they hear about it from their jailed loved ones. No, the righties aren’t afraid of the Iraqis finding out; they’re afraid of Mr. and Mrs. America finding out.
We should find all of the Iraqi consulates and demonstrate our solidarity with their people and apologize to them for the immoral and horrid behavior of this country toward their citizens.
Israeli tanks enter Gaza
Wounded Palestinians remain inside the crossing point terminal at Erez [Reuters]
Israeli tanks have crossed into Gaza near a key crossing point where at least 500 Palestinians are trapped, trying to flee from the territory since Hamas took it over.
http://english.aljazeera.net/N…..B9A719.htm
Rayne @ 50
Believe me, I’m not in favor of torture, but let me explain why I’m seemingly quibbling. I bet most people who haven’t thought much about the question think “if someone tortured me, I wouldn’t be able to stand it and I’d tell the truth right away”, without entertaining the possibility the victim of torture might not know the “truth” or might even just be a victim of sadism or terror. I’ll warrant that the “ticking time bomb” scenario seems compelling to Americans (interestingly enough, John McCain uttered the best refutation of this stupid sophistry I’ve ever heard), and the “ineffectiveness” argument is just as uncompelling to them (as well as empirically debatable, probably). Personally, the far more compelling, and chilling, argument against it for me is the knowledge that the administration’s ends are evil — that they really are interested in false confession, and a bureaucracy of sadism and terror to rule Iraq. That’s all, I’m just trying to make the point that there are different arguments.
Let’s put some history on the events. I think the torture had two roots. The first was getting even for 911. Otherwise very sensible people I know thought we should invade Iraq ‘to show the Arabs we mean business’. I believe that this was also the view of Mr. Kissinger. Send that message down the food chain to the troops and you get abuse, because its the same message, just more personal. That explains at least in part their brutality.
What explains the opportunity to exercise that brutality on the scale it was (and probably still is) executed goes to the summer of 2003 when the ‘dead-enders’ were beginning to kill some of our troops and Saddam was still at large. We know from the reports of how they caught him that the US intelligence apparatus had constructed a huge ‘family tree’ linking people to other people who might be distantly linked to someone who might know someone who knew where Saddam was hiding. To get at these people they had to go through their families, and we know from the same reports that they humiliated and tortured these innocent people to get to the people who they thought had the information they wanted.
The torture was an information-gathering device, but it was via extortion. Very few people are prepared to see their family members rapped. The Nazi’s had this technique down to a “T”.
I had to force myself to read this post. I wish with all my heart and would be willing to do whatever it took to see the perpetrators in the Bush administration be sentenced to hanging by a War Crimes Tribunal for this.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
It is like watching your dog run across the street in traffic.
Woodhall Hollow @ 74
191 entries on “Pakistan ISI” in the 9/11 timeline. Even more than the Saudis at 156. You’d think DeadEye would catch a f*cking clue.
Mary McCurnin @ 77
Mary, I really like this idea.
And everything was going to be just fine once we brought Saddam down.
I dream a lot. I told M. de Plume this morning that one of my fervent dreams is to see a C-130 at Edwards Air Force Base on January 20, 2009, loaded with all the “leaders” and enablers of this regime, in chains, fly off to the Hague.
Eureka Springs @ 83
Do you think we could organize this in a week?
this should read “tolerated, sanctioned, condoned, and encouraged
it should also read;
“the president knew with precise detail what was happening to these children and he encouraged it”
and they should continue;
“whoever thinks this is a man of god needs to be disabused from that opinion”
and they need to point out the following;
this president is a direct descendant of Prescott bush, a strong supporter of Hitler and his tactics…this president follows in those footsteps”
you want to see the base call for impeachment, we do things like that
When the torture story originally broke, I thought to myself “this will lose the war for us”. Now I say to myself it DID lose the war for us.
I think it’s the single greatest factor responsible for creating & fueling the insurgency (along with our other degrading, humiliating and horrendous acts such as slaughter & rape of Iraqi civilians). And it’s the reason we will never win the trust & respect of Iraq. They will fight us for a thousand years before forgiving us for these inhuman crimes.
It also confirms my belief that George Bush is a fake Christian. No real believer would ever risk facing judgement day with baggage like this.
Having said that, I personally feel ashamed as an American every time I look at this story.
Channel 4 in Britain did a program on the
“enhanced interrogation”torture techniquesvideo here
Brendan @ 18 There are studies just use the google. If I can find them — there are military reports I’ve read, where they explain on how useless
“enhanced interrogation”torture is.Perris 87,
“this president is a direct descendant of Prescott bush, a strong supporter of Hitler and his tactics…this president follows in those footsteps”
Also, there is a connection with the Nazi regime by the Brown and Root people (ex-Halliburton subsidiary), I believe. They were connected with Prescott Bush in those days. I’d have to look it up again.
Mary, Would have to start researching how and where we could send our apologies.. then gather them together and send.. Not sure how long it would take but we have waited long enough to start.. lets do it. Are you on facebook?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 42
You only need to be ashamed of Rich, American Oil companies that are trying to dominate the world. We can salute Gen. Taguba and I am hoping General Taguba joins Corporal Kokesh.
———————————
The General’s Report
How Antonio Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib scandal, became one of its casualties.
by Seymour M. Hersh
Taguba, looking back on his testimony, said, “That’s the reason I wasn’t in their camp—because I kept on contradicting them. I wasn’t about to lie to the committee. I knew I was already in a losing proposition. If I lie, I lose. And, if I tell the truth, I lose.”
Taguba had been scheduled to rotate to the Third Army’s headquarters, at Fort McPherson, Georgia, in June of 2004. He was instead ordered back to the Pentagon, to work in the office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Reserve Affairs…A retired four-star Army general later told Taguba that he had been sent to the job in the Pentagon so that he could “be watched.” Taguba realized that his career was at a dead end.
Taguba went on, “There was no doubt in my mind that this stuff”—the explicit images—“was gravitating upward. It was standard operating procedure to assume that this had to go higher. The President had to be aware of this.” He said that Rumsfeld, his senior aides, and the high-ranking generals and admirals who stood with him as he misrepresented what he knew about Abu Ghraib had failed the nation.
“From the moment a soldier enlists, we inculcate loyalty, duty, honor, integrity, and selfless service,” Taguba said. “And yet when we get to the senior-officer level we forget those values. I know that my peers in the Army will be mad at me for speaking out, but the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib. We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values.
Here’s a goody with lots of damning information with lots of links for back-up:
http://www.buzzflash.com/farre…..05001.html
Dear Speaker Pelosi,
Please introduce a bill forbidding torture. America has been shamed, perhaps beyond repair, by what the Bush Administration has allowed in Abu Garaib and in Guantanamo Bay.
I hope that Democrats will get to the bottom of who ordered this behavior quickly, and will hold them to account.
On behalf of Americans who respect our Constitution and the rule of law and common decency, I would hope that Congress will send a sincere apology to all of the world for the behavior of these sick individuals. If the republicans don’t want to sign the apology, fine. It is time to shine a spotlight on those who condone this behavior.
Sincerely,
Terry Olson
Eureka Springs @ 91
We take our apologies in person by the hundreds or thousands. It is a way to take physical action. We could make an alter out of each consulate. It is life affirming.
The apples in the barrel were bad but the rot was clearly from the top down.
Gunga Djinn @ 88
They failed to win the hearts and minds inside the first 6 months of the war. They had the time, they had the resources, but they simply did not understand the simple truth that torture does not make friends.
No empirical data needed.
Gnome de Plume @ 85
Ya’ know, it really seems imperative at this point that we all understand how we are perceived by the rest of the world (that includes you Congress) and how we may heal the festering sore that is our international standing. We must indeed pursue the perpetrators and call for justice. This seems the most effective way to start mending our relationships with the international community and regaining our status as a just nation. Other nations must know we that we do indeed care for justice and that we ARE a nation of laws again. And that means prosecuting the criminals involved, ALL OF THEM, on an international stage.
We should leave Iraq today in disgrace BECAUSE of this shit. I am sick but I am really hoping that we can stir up some media traction on these war crimes.
Another related shoe dropped for me today ~ I think someone said this on FDL today ~ what the hell right do we have to fight our war on terror on Iraqi sovereign territory? Absolutely none. It’s the fault of Bush’s policy (getting worse) that “they hate us.”
Oh and while I am here: Kerry is a phenomenal disappointment and his “conversion” is a lesson to us all about what dangerous times we live in. Wasn’t he bowing out of the presidential round to focus on ending our business in Iraq? Indeed.
Thanks to everyone here for being a beacon of hope.
We really need to replace the Republicans. Before they blow up the world. The GOP foreign policy of scorch and burn has got to stop.
Congress needs to pass a legislative limit on military tours of duty. Today.
great bird of resurection, we need a youtube with rapid fire machine gun edits…all the clips, what this president knew, what he did
we need to get graphic in that youtube, we need to point out they encouraged the rape of children before their parents, that they encouraged the forcing of fathers sodomizing their sons
and we need to point out that these people were NOT terrorists and that the president just gathers everyone and anyone and tortures them pall mall…this is not an exageration either
Eureka Springs @ 91
If you can accomplish this, would you please share it with the FDL community, sorta spread the word, I’ve been wanting to issue apologies for a long time!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
Don’t forget the scorn heaped on Howard Dean when he said Saddam’s capture didn’t make us safer.
A friend of mine was there, at Abu Ghraib, when all this was going on. He brought in a camera and the ‘interrogators’ took pictures of what was going on for him. He turned around and blew the whistle. What was his thanks? Nothing. He was hauled before Congress for hearings, but nothing happened. When he returned home, a wounded vet, not one single politician thanked him for either his service to his country, or for shining a light on the abuses.
It’s no wonder this happens, no one is really encouraged to tell the truth.
Mary McCurnin @ 95
Not a bad idea, but something I have no ability to take part in..except perahps make a small donation in support.
LS @ 43
LS Louima is the one who lived. Rudy’s other anchors around his neck with Giuliani Time written on them are Patrick Dorismond and Amadou Diallo.
Phoenix Woman @ 38
Yeah, that was this guy.
dakine01 @ 107
You are absolutely right. I couldn’t remember their names when I posted. I was in NYC at the time of the Louima ordeal, so that is the one that popped up for me, particularly with the broom handle torture which reminded me of the Abu G. torture tactics.
IIRC, Last years passage of the MCA and loss of habeas corpus etc.. led to lot of legal CYA for Bush and those who ordered or conducted torture. Frankly my Lieber-lovin D Senator Mark Pryor will never hear the end of it from me…even long after he loses his seat.
Where oh where is Mary4? *s*
I was a bad boy last night and watched a pirated version of Michael Moore’s ‘Sicko’. I was nearly incandescent with rage by the end, and have been spending today telling everybody I know to run, not walk, to see it when it opens in theatres. About 2/3 of the way through, Moore asks an important question, ‘What in God’s name have we become?’ Your post here has driven in the stake even deeper. I read in the NYT about the vocal xenophobes who helped kill the (admittedly awful) immigration bill. Now the bill is lurching about the Senate zombie-like, attracting horrible ammendments that seek to make it even worse. I am starting to ask why am I insane enough to stand by the principles America was built on when so few seem to care. I don’t know what to do. The government is busted. Politics likewise, with only a few bright spots. True, in a couple of years I can collect full social security and be on Medicare. Those aren’t busted yet.
I know what the polls say, that people like me really are in the majority. But we aren’t connecting. Should we take a leaf from the Rove handbook and go all Godzilla-like stomping the conservative base and laming GOP politicians with crowbars? No, my Ma raised me to be better than that.
There is an extended interview Moore has with Anthony Benn the former British Labour leader where he points out just how scary democracy is for politicians. France and the UK have a good working universal medical service in part because the pols wish to keep their heads. Please go see this movie.
But enough about me.
If people could vote for Bush not once, but twice, then those people are capable of most anything.
Ghouliani also likes to take credit for cleaning up and restoring landmarks for instance, Grand Central Station, but it was Jackie Kennedy who was behind that, I believe.
Where’s Bernie Kerik, Rudy?
Mary @ 77
Eureka Springs @ 83
I’m voiting for giving every one of theose prisoners plus their families – their extended families – full US citizenship in addition to whatever they already had. And then giving them the money that the corporations have been handed in no-bid contracts for the invasion and occupation. Plus whatever can be found of the personal fortunes the #$%^&* at the top made.
What we must ask ourselves, in Machiavellian terms, is up to what point, on certain occasions, does the end justify the means. A prisoner knows the location of a bomb about to explode that will kill hundreds of people. You could end up responsible for a bombing in an elementary school, for the death of hundreds of kids, because you refused to use torture.
Sound familiar? No, it’s not from Bush & Co., and it’s not a new argument.
It’s Vincente Massot, defending the use of torture by the Argentine government/military junta on Argentine citizens during the Dirty War. (War of the Disappeared)
so this is supposed to be different now that saddam is gone huh – meet the new boss – same as the old boss………..sheesh
LS @ 112
Well, that is a new one, as it was Jackie who spearheaded that–having begun work in that direction before Ghouliani.
Unless he means Times Square–which was cleaned up, but not “preserved” in that it has become Disney NYC.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 111
Right. Also, if Bush & Co., could lose the popular vote in the presidential elections not once, but twice, and still be in power; it shows you that they are capable of pretty much anything.
TeddySanFran @ 104
Yes, and all of us who agreed with and/or supported him were scorned, laughed at or ignored. How times have changed. A lotta people in the press and media owe that man an apology, one he’ll never get.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 113
whining that they’re not friends any more
oh yes all good american soldiers – how disgusting – but me no surprised at all…
Thank you for keeping this alive. It makes me want to vomit every time I read about it but it needs to be kept on the front burner. I read a political ad today that emphasized without impeachment Bush will ride into the sunset, free as a bird when his 2nd term ends in January ‘09. These criminals must be held to account and brought to justice. From Bush and Cheney, to Rumsfeld and all the other disgusting thugs who have enabled this twisted administration and promulgated evil around the world in the name of the American people, sullying our good names and desecrating our Constitution. Bring them to the Haig!!
Woodhall Hollow @ 117
I should limit it to “cleaning up”. The transformation of Grand Central was monumental and inspirational to New Yorkers.
Rayne @ 70
Here, by the way, was McCain’s retort to the asinine scenario: it if every really happened that way, the President would pardon the torturer. In other words, if there ever really were such an improbably cut and dried scenario, the torture would still be a crime, yet the torturer would clearly be willing to suffer the penalty to save a city. It still has to remain a crime. I say this was the best response I’ve ever heard because it effectively neutralizes the argument for torture I suspect a lot of Americans find compelling.Knut Wicksell @ 80
I think this is right on the money. I think there was some element of “gooKnut Wicksell @ 80
This is on the money. I think there was some reasoning behind the early rationales for torture and the “good intentions” of depraved but not wholly irrational people. Remember how they were always boasting about watching “The Battle of Algiers”, which presents torture as a tactical success (in a losing cause). john in sacramento @ 89
There’s likewise counterevidence that torture works: for example the tactical successes of the French in Algiers depicted in the “Battle of Algiers” (which the administration, the morons, advertised screening), or the Nazis.
One of the reasons the milita Noonan @ 105
Darby is a pariah in his home town: http://www2.washingtonmonthly……03946.php.
We’re not a very good country.
selise @ 45
update from c-span: senate intelligence committee hearing this afternoon on the rizzo nomination, is tenatively scheduled to be show on c-span at about 10:35pm tonight. (actually the schedule is for the hearing to be shown about 30 min after the house is done the day’s business, which is supposed to be at 10pm).
disclaimer – this is c-span, they change their schedules at will.
i will attempt to do an audio recording of c-span’s webstream this evening.
the potential is there for us to learn much more about the “legal” justifications used for torture, if the senators are doing their job. rizzo was in the thick of things at the cia.
I’m sorry about that last thing. I don’t know what the hell happened.
LS @ 123
I love Grand Central–esp the “backwards” zodiac on the ceiling!
Agree with what was said above about the American public’s silcence, and the media’s complacency about this continued abuse, means to the world our agreement with such tactics. And I for one am ashamed of the leaders of our once bright and shiny democracy.
The one thing that kept America aware and on alert is the communication between newspapers and the people of this great country. Before the neocons and the corporatists took over, they first had to buy up all the media and tempt them with money and favors. Once bought off, the rest was just pushing their spin and silence on what was wrong.
And now the continued silence about this will appear in history books for the ages to resemble in spirit if not in specific fact, another time when people asked why was the populace so willing to so along with leaders that did harm to their proud country.
I hope history records those of us who spoke out against this abuse.
brendan @ 126
Have you been reading Rove’s talking points?
[Mod: Stop attacking other commenters. Second warning.]
I’d have more respect for McCain’s views on torture if he had voted against making it legal. (That was when some of us realized he’d lost touch with reality.)
One good thing to think about. We are still free enough that stories like this can be seen, examined, and discussed. I’ll be doggoned if I’m going to allow these people to get away with this.
Today, Bush’s nominee for CIA general counsel stood up for torture:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/06/19/rizzo-torture/
Maybe it’s time to call our Senators and, politely, tell them please do not confirm any more fucking sadists to serve in the U.S goverment.
And BTW, Scalia is using Jack Bauer as justification to ignore the law?
WTF? I mean, WTF????!!!!!
BTW, happy Juneteenth
fdl reader @ 99
Well there’s the problem. You need to let go of this ‘War on Terror’ idea before it’ll make any sense.
The latest version of why we’re in Iraq (and are going to STAY in Iraq for somewhere between 10 & 50 years) is to keep China out of the vacuum that would appear if we left.
(keep it under your hat)
jayt @ 27
“Brilliant”…….uh,
WTF……….this is a teevee show. Bernadette Peters for chrissakes and james spader are working again, good for them.
Please, in the future, if you’re going to use a teevee show to demonstrate a point, POST A WARNING.
This stuff is gut wrencing enough w/o using a made-for-teevee account.,,,,YUCK.
mc @ 132-
thank you for the info… i am so anxious to watch this hearing on c-span.
mc @ 132
Unbelievable!! If they confirm a torturer, then we should make sure they get voted out of office! We should put up such a huge stink about this.
mc @ 133
The same Judge Scalia that scorns and ridicules any references to international law. The same arrogant fascist.
-GSD
Gunga Djinn @ 134
Yep, the end goal has always been chaos in Iraq, on a grand scale, for years and years to come. This allows them to steal whatever they want from the Iraqis (oil rights) with impunity.
I really hope Dems understand this.
Michael Boldin @ 6
It gives a whole new meaning to “support the troops” doesn’t it? How do Iraqis perceive us when we spout that bumper sticker phrase in light of their country being in ruins, their families and friends slaughtered and these pictures and emerging accounts coming to light?
brokenarrow @ 135
Justice Scalia thinks that torture is okay because Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles..
Eureka Springs @ 5
From what I’ve read, Bush was saying something like, “I want answers, dammit! And I don’t care how you get them!” It was up to Rummy to figure out how to get “answers”.
Bob in HI
PJ Evans, I’ll vote with you. We owe them more than we could ever repay. Security and sanctuary if they want it here, is the least we could offer.
OT, but for those of us on Facebook, NYBri/Brian Keeler posted a video showing someone he says is Digby.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 113
It appears to be a case of unrequited love between Rudi and Bernie.
——————————
KERIK’S CRY OVER RUDY, LAMENTS LOSING HIS PAL
By AUSTIN FENNER
June 19, 2007 — Disgraced ex-NYPD Commissioner Bernie Kerik can’t stop crying over his fizzled friendship with former BFF Rudy Giuliani.
“I accept the distance created by Giuliani. I understand it, but inside, it’s killing me,” Kerik said.
“It’s like dying a slow death, watching him have to answer for my mistakes,” the former top cop said of the ex-New York mayor-turned presidential candidate.
Kerik copped last year to accepting $165,000 in free renovations on his Riverdale, Bronx, apartment by a mobbed-up contractor.
Body bag after body bag drove us to the streets.
We rose up.
When we continue to engage these thugs through politics, we play by their rules.
I wonder what it will take for good Americans to take to the streets.
Eureka Springs @ 143
I agree completely with both of you, but if these people in charge are not held up to scrutiny and accountability security and sanctuary won’t be possible here for the Iraqis or for American citizens that are already here.
I’m not one to bash Hillary Clinton 24/7 because I’ve already made up my mind about her, but I bookmarked this piece a long time ago and I just don’t understand why it didn’t get wider play. If there’s a more disingenuous statement in this world, then I don’t know what it might be!
“If we’re going to be preparing for the kind of improbable but possible eventuality, then it has to be done within the rule of law,” Clinton said in a phone interview Friday, expanding on comments to the Daily News Editorial Board. She said the “ticking time bomb” scenario represents a narrow exception to her opposition to torture as morally wrong, ineffective and dangerous to American soldiers. “In the event we were ever confronted with having to interrogate a detainee with knowledge of an imminent threat to millions of Americans, then the decision to depart from standard international practices must be made by the President, and the President must be held accountable,” she said. “That very, very narrow exception within very, very limited circumstances is better than blasting a big hole in our entire law.”
Well, here’s the link to the piece. It really makes me sick.
Not that any of this is new, but it makes me physically ill. I wish bushco would spontaneously combust. For these bastards to claim they are Christians should be a crime. To allow this kind of thing to occur without punishment for those who knew about and ordered it is nothing short of crimes against humanity. The bush maladministration should be locked up and they key thrown away.
Mandrake @ 130
What an intolerant accusation. I think they should all be put to death for war crimes, and torture is right up there.
————
[Mod: Can we back off some from the wishes for other people to be killed? That’s a little close to what we are criticizing about the administration.]
————
I’m simply making another point: Americans are mean, insecure fuckers and the arguments about “ineffectiveness” 1) don’t mean shit to them and 2) are debatable, anyway: — I mean, has anyone read about the German occupation of Europe? Do you really think they didn’t have tactical successes employing torture?
As for McCain, he’s a warmonger, and as a pilot in Vietnam he was a war criminal. I don’t like him. But he makes a more astute counterargument against the silly “ticking time bomb” scenario than I’ve seen anyone else here make and, given Scalia’s recent comments on Jack Bauer, I think it’s germane to restate that counterargument.
OT but it has to do with Bush enabler Joe Lieberman. MoveOn.org is going after him. From there e-mail today:
Mandrake @ 140
Of course Northrop Grumman, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Halliburton, etc. won’t mind getting the TRILLIONS of our tax money over the years either.
Lockheed’s rather ironic tagline: “We Never Forget Who We’re Working For.” They also boast that 80% of their revenue comes from the Dept. of Defense, in other words the taxes you and I pay. All so we can invade and occupy countries that are no threat to us. C’mon Dems, you can stop the madness if you want to. We’re watching now!!
Who the hell is this Jack Bauer? Is he a character in a crap novel?
D’Oh….I didn’t get the Sopranos reference in the Clinton video…
Why are we entertaining wild fictional scenarios about torture stopping nuclear bombs when we have REAL problems to solve?
It’s so bizarre. Bush is the President and the Republican front runner is basically an anti-family values thug named Rudy.
Mary McCurnin @ 153
Main character on the wingnut show 24.
LS @ 49
I think she has two email addresses (at least):
One is her address as a Representative; you have to be a constituent for it to get read.
But she has another in her role as Speaker, http://www.speaker.gov/contact/, and you can send to that one.
Bob in HI
fdl reader @ 156
Right. Maybe it should be rephrased to: If you torture enough people, they will want to drop nuclear bombs on you.
fdl reader @ 156
Why does the U.S. spend its time being belligerent about nuclear weapons Iran doesn’t have instead of trying to do something diplomatic about the ones North Korea does?
tbsa @ 158
I don’t do tv. Except HBO and KO.
Libby files appeal to stay out during appeal.
Gunga Djinn @ 135
Thanks! I’ll pass that along.
Un-fucking-believable.
How can this nation NOT realize we are in the grip of serial propaganda?
Gunga Djinn @ 69
You also left out Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith, and Steve Cambone.
Bob in HI
brendan @ 150
You misread me. I was trying to make a joke, based on what you said: “I’m sorry about that last thing. I don’t know what the hell happened” – that ’s all you said in 126 and that’s all I was responding to.
Rove talking points? Ba-dump-dump!
It’s a joke! Really! =)
Dear God.
“I have met the enemy, and he is us.” Pogo.
Pogo was a cute little cartoon possum, and he didn’t even know George Bush, but he knew politicians, and GWB (WPE) is king of that game. If America to have any credibility in the world, we will have to impeach him. There is no other way.
Robert
New thread upstairs!
Bob the Zed
Not arguing, just talking
Brendan @ 124
Rhetorical questions: What was the end result of the French occupation in Algeria?
Did the French prevail or the mujahadeen?
Thanks for reminding me, the story of the rebellion in Algeria is one the reports I read. Can’t remember if it was from the NDU or the SSI at Carlisle — pretty sure it was one of the two.
wow the threads are coming fast and furious today – must learn to read faster
FYI, new thread
as i have said, much of this stuff is a mask for perverts and child rapists. the page scandal is just a whiff of what’s going on.
when are we going to stop paying for this shit and put these monsters in prison? oh wait- the same stuff goes on in the prisons…
I suppose none of you will want to read the following, but it has been a haunting impression for me: A few weeks ago at Frankfurt airport, US airline check-in counter. A number of US army people. Two women in combat uniform standing nearby, looking not more than 16 years old from the short distance. When walking by them after check-in, one of them gave me a look which made me shudder. Pure evil in those eyes. Would not want to be in her vicinity ever, let alone locked up with her.
As the sign said in the museum of former Nazi camp Dachau: “War turns people into animals”.
Gunga Djinn @ 116
And completely derivative as well of Straussian philosophy.
I note brendan’s use of the word “tactical” in his reply upthread. Therein is a major problem. Strauss advocated that the ends justified the means, but the ends Strauss and his followers want are always strategic, yet they invariably choose tactical means.
Torture is tactical. It is not strategic, and therefore over the long run will grossly fail the ends it is meant to achieve.
Gunga Djinn @ 116
mc @ 133
GSD @ 139
Jpl @ 142
My first link: I read this on Sunday and couldn’t believe it … more on Scalia’s beyond murdurous comments in Canada … from the Canadian press.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com…..elevision/
Beyond shocking.
Here’s a screen cap of Digby.
Rayne @ 174
That’s why I call them “morons” for screening “The Battle of Algiers” without any sense of irony. Salon had a good piece recently on how they view the French defeat in Algeria.
I had to laugh so hard too, after I looked up who the hell jack bauer was. And this is a SC judge, gawd!!! Guess the teevee is doing it’s job quite well these days, hmm.
Listened to Hersch on Democracy Now while running around town, then this and the New Yorker piece when I returned home.
Just feel like I got the wind knocked out of me. SUCH DARKNESS………….and IMO, Maj. Gen. Taguba is a man of substance, honor, and a hero. If any of his friends or family are reading this today, you know that!!!
Thank you, sir, and all men and woman of true honor and courage who are in the service. This criminal behavior must make your job even harder if that’s possible.
mulligatawny @ 172
I find this comment haunting………..and have often wondered exactly what type of people are joining up considering all we know at this point. CHILLING!!!!
brokenarrow @ 136
I thought it was an inspiring speech. If you didn’t, I’m sorry. Please do not presume to tell me what or what not do to here.
rwcole @ 63
Here is “an unfortunate truth”
1. We act based on what we believe
2. What we believe is a result of what information we choose to accept as truth
3. What Bush did (sincerely?) was because of what he chose to believe.
Acting sincerely out of ignorance is hardly an excuse. The leader of the free world should know better.
Woodhall Hollow @ 60
Yes, Woodhall Hollow. I’ve come to think that we are enforcing violent chaos on the Iraqis in an attempt to make them finally cry ‘uncle’ and give the multinationals the oil bill, Israel and A*P*C the regionally and ethnically divided and weak federal government in Iraq that they think would ’safeguard’ Israel, and give us the permanent basing rights and other “American national interests” we demand the right to take, since we spent so much taxpayer debt and time and military lives invading that ‘ungrateful’ nation to that end.
What this says about our Members of Congress, Democrat and Republican alike, speaks volumes, and yet can hardly be put into words.
Democrats: Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 is still there, ready and waiting to be invoked to end this evil, should you wish to listen to your consciences and try to redeem this nation.
Noonan @ 105 – We desperately need more patriotic, courageous Americans like your truth-telling veteran friend. Modern politicians expect to be tangibly rewarded for their “virtue” – which makes actual virtue practically extinct on Capitol Hill. We simply cannot let that status quo stand any longer, and must, in the name of duty, honor, country, do as your friend did: TELL THE TRUTH, and DEMAND TRUTH from our “representatives.”
I want people hung for this. At the very least, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and a number of generals should spend the rest of their life in prison. And not the “nice” prisons important people usually get, but full on maximum security penitentiaries.
[Mod: Can we please back off from being eager to kill other people? That’s what we are criticizing in the administration.]
The pathology of a psychopath without soul or conscience – this is what my country has become…rotting from the inside out.
RE: wcole says “This all goes back to a president who is WAY over his head, intellectually, managerially, morally, and most importantly- spiritually. He’s out of his depth- he can’t think about details- so he just orders up the BIGGEST reaction he can think of.”
Actually, I think he is in his depth. He can live the pretense without any of the work; his managers (Cheney & Rove) do the work. And his personal history condones physical abuse, i.e. “blowing up” frogs as a kid and branding fraternity new pledges while at college.
This torture is physical, pornographic torture, a torture that satisfies the torturers and the intended viewers. I suspect it is torture requested & documented on orders directly from the White House & the Pentagon. Photos to be cached away in the bottom desk drawer where the whisky bottle used to hide. Evil that will (has) come home to roost. Palli
For those of you as deeply disturbed as I am by what this adminstration has done in it’s “war on terror” join us in Washington on June 26.
Here is an excerpt from the ACLU website:
Help restore our rights and bring habeas corpus back to its rightful place in the Constitution …
For nearly seven years, our core values of freedom and fairness have been eroded, from the suspension of habeas corpus and due process, to shameful acts of torture, CIA kidnappings and secret prison programs.
On June 26, 2007, join us in Washington, D.C. as we call on Congress to restore habeas corpus, fix the Military Commissions Act, and restore all our constitutional rights. We even have free buses leaving from many parts of the country… It’s easy to come!
Rally with us outside the Capitol, then help deliver our urgent message in person to Members of Congress.
https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=june_home
When I travel to Washington next week for the ACLU rally I plan on giving my Senator (Mitch McConnell)a copy of one of the many books out there on the Bush Adminstration’s torture policies, as well as, some choice articles on the subject.
I wish every concerned citizen would start sending our representatives articles & books on this subject. Maybe if we flood their offices with this information they will finally be moved to have an independent investigation into what has been done in our names.
I know it’s not much but at least we know that we did SOMETHING to try to hold these people accountable. Doing nothing is just not an option.
I used to moderate on a website called Common Ground Common Sense.org where we created a section on the website concerning torture. We posted a great many articles on the subject along with comments from our members. You can access them here:
http://www.commongroundcommons…..wforum=266
Speaking of truth, there’s a new “Independent Report On Iraq” by the Global Policy Forum:
The history is starting to be written, Congress. In which chapter will your names and your actions, or lack thereof, be recorded…?
http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/0619-03.htm
United States Constitution, Article I, Section 8, Clause 11: Invoke it NOW.
I am frustrated that we all express exasperation but this incredible story is dying. The blogs need to fan it. FOX would keep it alive we need to do the same not just throw up our hands and vent
It’s all there…
http://www.globalpolicy.org/se…../index.htm
Sponsors:
shootthatarrow>>> @ 41
The “library” should be a monument to the atrocities of Dubya and a warning to all future generations.
They must be put in jail or we will always feel we condoned it and we will be guilty forever.
well, originally as part of the Thanksgiving trip where aWol brought the troops turkee there was also supposed to be another flight deck type scene at Abu Ghraib where aWol was going to do a speech under a “Under New Management” banner. wound up getting canceled at the last minute
preznit giv me turkee @ 193
Dude, you should come upstairs!
Rayne @ 70
Three points:
1) These are the same people who posted Saddam’s pre-Gulf War chemical recipes for nerve gas and shematics of nuclear bombs on the internet in Arabic. So much for the Republicans and WH wanting to stop terrorits from having nukes and other WMD’s.
2) These are the same folks that rationalize away the exposure of covert CIA agents and operations because they didn’t like what her husbnd siad about their bogus evidence for Iraq having a yellowcake Uranium trade with Niger.
3) In none of these cases is such a “Jack Bauer” threat so imminent or probable. A trained terrorist would likely use the “opportunity” of a torture session to actually provide false leads to distract investigators from the immediate threat or send them off on wild goose chases.
And in ALL these cases of torture there has been no imminent threat of such a nature. The torture has occurred long after the prisoners were involved in hostilities (so the info is going to be “cold”, many of the individuals were not even considered actual threats…and were later released from detention. Some weren’t even charged. Of course, the fact that they were tortured and it might be raised in trial may have been the rationale not to try them. But if they were truly dangerous…then why were they released?
We can only infer that this was becasue the Pentagon and CIA thought this risk was far less important than covering up the criminal acts of torture.