[The above clip is an excerpted bit from the Frontline examination of "The Torture Question." There are graphic images from photos taken at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, as well as some disturbing information presented in this documentary. I wanted to warn everyone upfront before you clicked on the video. More information on the documentary can be found here at the Frontline website. -- CHS]
For the Bush Administration, first and foremost, it has been consistently about maintaining a public level of plausible deniability for each and every scandal that has arisen during their tenure in office. Over and over, the phrase we have heard is that an official could not look into particular charges because of “an ongoing criminal investigation.”
What that has meant, for close to seven years now, is that when a substantial problem arises in any executive agency, that problem is left to fester — for days, months, even years — while members of the Bush Administration sit back and bide their time, and allow the problem to continue unabated under the cloak of plausible deniability — unless and until someone outside the Administration begins to ask the tough questions that need to be asked.
Seymour Hersh has a blistering example of that directly from former Gen. Antonio Taguba that everyone should read in full. But I want to warn you up front, it is infuriating and utterly disgusting. All the more so because the upper level officers and civilian leaders at the Pentagon have yet to be held to account for any of the their involvement in this mess, while enlisted soldiers who were likely following their illegal orders bide their time in military prisons. I am beyond furious, all over again, after reading all of this.
Hersh was interviewed yesterday on CNN regarding the article, and Crooks and Liars has a clip of the interview. Watch it for an overview of Hersh’s reporting, but do go and read the entire New Yorker article. Every person in this nation ought to do so — it is that appalling.
From Hersh’s piece in the New Yorker:
…“Here . . . comes . . . that famous General Taguba—of the Taguba report!” Rumsfeld declared, in a mocking voice. The meeting was attended by Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld’s deputy; Stephen Cambone, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence; General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (J.C.S.); and General Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, along with Craddock and other officials. Taguba, describing the moment nearly three years later, said, sadly, “I thought they wanted to know. I assumed they wanted to know. I was ignorant of the setting.”In the meeting, the officials professed ignorance about Abu Ghraib. “Could you tell us what happened?” Wolfowitz asked. Someone else asked, “Is it abuse or torture?” At that point, Taguba recalled, “I described a naked detainee lying on the wet floor, handcuffed, with an interrogator shoving things up his rectum, and said, ‘That’s not abuse. That’s torture.’ There was quiet.”
Rumsfeld was particularly concerned about how the classified report had become public. “General,” he asked, “who do you think leaked the report?” Taguba responded that perhaps a senior military leader who knew about the investigation had done so. “It was just my speculation,” he recalled. “Rumsfeld didn’t say anything.” (I did not meet Taguba until mid-2006 and obtained his report elsewhere.) Rumsfeld also complained about not being given the information he needed. “Here I am,” Taguba recalled Rumsfeld saying, “just a Secretary of Defense, and we have not seen a copy of your report. I have not seen the photographs, and I have to testify to Congress tomorrow and talk about this.” As Rumsfeld spoke, Taguba said, “He’s looking at me. It was a statement.”
At best, Taguba said, “Rumsfeld was in denial.” Taguba had submitted more than a dozen copies of his report through several channels at the Pentagon and to the Central Command headquarters, in Tampa, Florida, which ran the war in Iraq. By the time he walked into Rumsfeld’s conference room, he had spent weeks briefing senior military leaders on the report, but he received no indication that any of them, with the exception of General Schoomaker, had actually read it. (Schoomaker later sent Taguba a note praising his honesty and leadership.) When Taguba urged one lieutenant general to look at the photographs, he rebuffed him, saying, “I don’t want to get involved by looking, because what do you do with that information, once you know what they show?”
Taguba also knew that senior officials in Rumsfeld’s office and elsewhere in the Pentagon had been given a graphic account of the pictures from Abu Ghraib, and told of their potential strategic significance, within days of the first complaint. On January 13, 2004, a military policeman named Joseph Darby gave the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division (C.I.D.) a CD full of images of abuse. Two days later, General Craddock and Vice-Admiral Timothy Keating, the director of the Joint Staff of the J.C.S., were e-mailed a summary of the abuses depicted on the CD. It said that approximately ten soldiers were shown, involved in acts that included:
Having male detainees pose nude while female guards pointed at their genitals; having female detainees exposing themselves to the guards; having detainees perform indecent acts with each other; and guards physically assaulting detainees by beating and dragging them with choker chains.
Taguba said, “You didn’t need to ‘see’ anything — just take the secure e-mail traffic at face value.”I learned from Taguba that the first wave of materials included descriptions of the sexual humiliation of a father with his son, who were both detainees. Several of these images, including one of an Iraqi woman detainee baring her breasts, have since surfaced; others have not. (Taguba’s report noted that photographs and videos were being held by the C.I.D. because of ongoing criminal investigations and their “extremely sensitive nature.”) Taguba said that he saw “a video of a male American soldier in uniform sodomizing a female detainee.” The video was not made public in any of the subsequent court proceedings, nor has there been any public government mention of it. Such images would have added an even more inflammatory element to the outcry over Abu Ghraib. “It’s bad enough that there were photographs of Arab men wearing women’s panties,” Taguba said.
On January 20th, the chief of staff at Central Command sent another e-mail to Admiral Keating, copied to General Craddock and Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, the Army commander in Iraq. The chief of staff wrote, “Sir: update on alleged detainee abuse per our discussion. DID IT REALLY HAPPEN? Yes, currently have 4 confessions implicating perhaps 10 soldiers. DO PHOTOS EXIST? Yes. A CD with approx 100 photos and a video—CID has these in their possession.”
In subsequent testimony, General Myers, the J.C.S. chairman, acknowledged, without mentioning the e-mails, that in January information about the photographs had been given “to me and the Secretary up through the chain of command. . . . And the general nature of the photos, about nudity, some mock sexual acts and other abuse, was described.”
Nevertheless, Rumsfeld, in his appearances before the Senate and the House Armed Services Committees on May 7th, claimed to have had no idea of the extensive abuse. “It breaks our hearts that in fact someone didn’t say, ‘Wait, look, this is terrible. We need to do something,’ ” Rumsfeld told the congressmen. “I wish we had known more, sooner, and been able to tell you more sooner, but we didn’t.”
Rumsfeld told the legislators that, when stories about the Taguba report appeared, “it was not yet in the Pentagon, to my knowledge.” As for the photographs, Rumsfeld told the senators, “I say no one in the Pentagon had seen them”; at the House hearing, he said, “I didn’t see them until last night at 7:30.” Asked specifically when he had been made aware of the photographs, Rumsfeld said:
There were rumors of photographs in a criminal prosecution chain back sometime after January 13th . . . I don’t remember precisely when, but sometime in that period of January, February, March. . . . The legal part of it was proceeding along fine. What wasn’t proceeding along fine is the fact that the President didn’t know, and you didn’t know, and I didn’t know.
“And, as a result, somebody just sent a secret report to the press, and there they are,” Rumsfeld said….
According to the NYTimes, Rumsfeld’s public excuse for not looking at the information earlier was the following:
Lawrence Di Rita, a former top aide to Mr. Rumsfeld, said Mr. Rumsfeld had not viewed the photographs because he had been advised by lawyers that doing so “could materially affect the ongoing criminal investigation.” He said Mr. Rumsfeld finally looked at the pictures the day before his Congressional testimony, the same day he was briefed by General Taguba.
Plausible deniability. If it sounds familiar, it is because it has been the constant refrain from Bush Administration officials — including AG Gonzales in the latest series of inquiries into Department of Justice improprieties. They are using what ought to be a solemn, ethical obligation as a shield for liability from wrongdoing, taking an obligation to not interfere with genuine fact-finding and twisting it into an excuse for not correcting an ongoing problem. This is not governing, it is CYA at the highest levels — and they should not be allowed to continue along this tactical path.
Recall, for example, that Karl Rove’s security clearance violations have still not been investigated by the internal arm in the White House charged with such duties because of “the ongoing criminal investigation.” So a man who has publicly admitted to discussing highly classified information with multiple journalists continues to have high-level security…because of a claimed technicality.
And on and on and on…the entire Bush Administration has been violate the law in secret (or write in a signing statement that says you can ignore it outright), get caught, and continue on your path of misconduct under a cloack of plausible deniability writ large unless and until the public sentiment builds to a crescendo that can no longer be ignored, forcing a halt or forcing whatever conduct is being questioned to morph into another non-public end-run of the law form. (See, e.g., John Poindexter.)
But back to the Taguba situation. As the former general told Hersh, his investigation was limited to the lower ranks, and no higher:
During the next two years, Taguba assiduously avoided the press, telling his relatives not to talk about his work. Friends and family had been inundated with telephone calls and visitors, and, Taguba said, “I didn’t want them to be involved.” Taguba retired in January, 2007, after thirty-four years of active service, and finally agreed to talk to me about his investigation of Abu Ghraib and what he believed were the serious misrepresentations by officials that followed. “From what I knew, troops just don’t take it upon themselves to initiate what they did without any form of knowledge of the higher-ups,” Taguba told me. His orders were clear, however: he was to investigate only the military police at Abu Ghraib, and not those above them in the chain of command. “These M.P. troops were not that creative,” he said. “Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority. I was limited to a box.”…
Taguba’s assignment was limited to investigating the 800th M.P.s, but he quickly found signs of the involvement of military intelligence—both the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, commanded by Colonel Thomas Pappas, which worked closely with the M.P.s, and what were called “other government agencies,” or O.G.A.s, a euphemism for the C.I.A. and special-operations units operating undercover in Iraq. Some of the earliest evidence involved Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan, whose name was mentioned in interviews with several M.P.s. For the first three weeks of the investigation, Jordan was nowhere to be found, despite repeated requests. When the investigators finally located him, he asked whether he needed to shave his beard before being interviewed—Taguba suspected that he had been dressing as a civilian. “When I asked him about his assignment, he says, ‘I’m a liaison officer for intelligence from Army headquarters in Iraq.’ ” But in the course of three or four interviews with Jordan, Taguba said, he began to suspect that the lieutenant colonel had been more intimately involved in the interrogation process—some of it brutal—for “high value” detainees.
“Jordan denied everything, and yet he had the authority to enter the prison’s ‘hard site’ ”—where the most important detainees were held—“carrying a carbine and an M9 pistol, which is against regulations,” Taguba said. Jordan had also led a squad of military policemen in a shoot-out inside the hard site with a detainee from Syria who had managed to obtain a gun. (A lawyer for Jordan disputed these allegations; in the shoot-out, he said, Jordan was “just another gun on the extraction team” and not the leader. He noted that Jordan was not a trained interrogator.)
Taguba said that Jordan’s “record reflected an extensive intelligence background.” He also had reason to believe that Jordan was not reporting through the chain of command. But Taguba’s narrowly focussed mission constrained the questions he could ask. “I suspected that somebody was giving them guidance, but I could not print that,” Taguba said.
“After all Jordan’s evasiveness and misleading responses, his rights were read to him,” Taguba went on. Jordan subsequently became the only officer facing trial on criminal charges in connection with Abu Ghraib and is scheduled to be court-martialled in late August. (Seven M.P.s were convicted of charges that included dereliction of duty, maltreatment, and assault; one defendant, Specialist Charles Graner, was sentenced to ten years in prison.) Last month, a military judge ruled that Jordan, who is still assigned to the Army’s Intelligence and Security Command, had not been appropriately advised of his rights during his interviews with Taguba, undermining the Army’s allegation that he lied during the Taguba inquiry. Six other charges remain, including failure to obey an order or regulation; cruelty and maltreatment; and false swearing and obstruction of justice. (His lawyer said, “The evidence clearly shows that he is innocent.”)
Taguba came to believe that Lieutenant General Sanchez, the Army commander in Iraq, and some of the generals assigned to the military headquarters in Baghdad had extensive knowledge of the abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib even before Joseph Darby came forward with the CD. Taguba was aware that in the fall of 2003—when much of the abuse took place—Sanchez routinely visited the prison, and witnessed at least one interrogation. According to Taguba, “Sanchez knew exactly what was going on.”
Taguba learned that in August, 2003, as the Sunni insurgency in Iraq was gaining force, the Pentagon had ordered Major General Geoffrey Miller, the commander at Guantánamo, to Iraq. His mission was to survey the prison system there and to find ways to improve the flow of intelligence. The core of Miller’s recommendations, as summarized in the Taguba report, was that the military police at Abu Ghraib should become part of the interrogation process: they should work closely with interrogators and intelligence officers in “setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees.”
Taguba concluded that Miller’s approach was not consistent with Army doctrine, which gave military police the overriding mission of making sure that the prisons were secure and orderly. His report cited testimony that interrogators and other intelligence personnel were encouraging the abuse of detainees. “Loosen this guy up for us,” one M.P. said he was told by a member of military intelligence. “Make sure he has a bad night.”…
And so, the accountability for the origination of all of these practices which went against the tenets of the UCMJ and our international legal obligations under the Geneva Conventions and the laws of warfare which the United States had been key in implementing and enforcing in the aftermath of the Second World War — all of that was thrown away by the crowd surrounding Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and George Bush, and none of them were to be held to account by orders issued to General Taguba. How very convenient.
It is one thing to have suspected this or to have gotten hints of this over the past few years, but it is quite another level of furious to read Taguba’s words on the page about this. The level of contempt that Rumsfeld and his top commanders showed to Congress in their outright obfuscations is appalling enough, but to know that this was certainly a deliberate strategy of plausible deniability from the get go is unsustainable and demands both oversight and accountability. Now.
In case you don’t remember the disgusting mess that was Abu Ghraib, or what we have done in Afghanistan at Bagram and other places prior to it, or elsewhere in Iraq before and since, or at Guantanimo — all, not coincidentally, having been under the command of former Lt Gen. Geoffrey Miller at one point or another, take a peek at this Frontline special “The Torture Question.” (Taylor had a great summary write-up about it when it aired, and you can read it here.) I found a bit of an excerpted clip from it and posted it as the above YouTube, but the Frontline website has the entire show available for streaming online.
The full Taguba report is available here via The Agonist. And there is more on Hersh’s report in The WaPo as well.
This is not who we ought to be in America. We are far, far better than this — and we once believed that we ought to strive to be a beacon of decency and hope, rather than a glaring spotlight of what not to be. Congress must step in on this issue, as the courts have done already in a number of cases, for the Bush Administration has shown itself repeatedly to be untrustworthy stewards of the rule of law and of the tenets of decency and human rights.
The Bush Administration has violated the principles that the United States has long held in sacred trust along with other civilized nations as the standards to which we all ought to strive. From the utter disregard for the long-held principle of habeas corpus to the deliberate blurring of the line between United States citizen and enemy combatant to using the NSA for domestic spying without getting prior FISA court approval…the list continues unabated on the depths to which the Bush Administration will sink to avoid the legal course of action and do as it pleases, whether or not such end-runs of the law are either necessary and/or useful in a long-term policy and reputation context for our country.
It is past time that they were called on this, publicly, loudly, and repeatedly. We are better than this. Our policies should be driven by knowledge and long-term strategy and not short-term fear. And lawbreakers — all of them, no matter how low or how high their influence may reach, should be held to account for their actions. All of them.
Congress must hold them all to account. There must be cleansing sunshine, oversight and accountability on this issue if America is ever to regain any measure of trust with the rest of the civilized nations of the world.



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Zed!!
As close to zed as I’ll ever get.
It’s a bit long, gang — apologies — but it needed to be said this morning. Just when you think things can’t get more appalling…
Thanks, Christy!
Would anyone be surprised if we ultimately learn that Bush ordered the torture?
EPU’d but I wanted to make sure folks got a chance to see this. Sorry Christy.Get ready to for claims of the Surges success The short of it is, it looks like the rate of casualties in Iraq is headed down. Big indicator of success? NOT. Indicator of Summer? Yes.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 3
No Apologies necessary. It says what is needed to be said.
No need to apologize for the length. I think most folks who come here do so for the quality of the content and discussion. And, yes, it did need to be said and we need to say it more often and more loudly.
‘mornin christy
we’ve been discussin this downstairs;
Prairie Sunshine @ 111
we need to edit the most powerfull images and the most daming facts, most people won’t sit through this, we need to do a fast furious edit…here’s the dialogue I was having downstairs
perris @ 113
I said this last night and I’ll say it again:
We shouldn’t let the images of Abu Ghraib be hidden; not from those who want this war, not from those who started this war.
Fix Fox Newsers in front of the screen. Show them what they want done in their name. Make them see what is now being done in their name, IN OUR NAME.
Stop making excuses for why the Democrats are doing this or doing that. Don’t give them any chance to equivocate on why they won’t just end this illegal war.
They have inflicted permanent damage on this country making it much less for our kids and grandkids than what the promise was before the Bush family got hold of it.
Wake up…they are planning an event for just before the election next year so that Bushie can implement all the little plans that have been drafted recently including the use of federal troops to augment local authorities, the right of the president to literally take over in the event of an emergency ANYWHERE that threatens national security.
They don’t plan on relinquishing their grip on our country and they don’t have to worry because they own the press and the talking heads and all the financial institutions and there is no militia to stop them. We are literally f…ed.
Flash…
Dateline Washington DC
Date: September 15, 2009
The Dept of Justice and OPR office has
finally released their report on Gonzo
Findings: Gonzo did lie to Congress
Gonzo did attempt to sway Monica’s testimony
Gonzo did obstruct justice…
Reached for comment, Alberto Gonzales now
President of Fredo & Associates, a Texas
stonewalling company…. said “I broke
no laws and spent my final days speeding
to the finish line… history will judge
me as a hero.”
Great post, Christy. I have been reading Hersh’s New Yorker article in pieces. I keep having to just get up and walk away from it, or else I’ll start screaming, “BASTARDS! BASTARDS! BASTARDS!” and pounding my fist on the table.
‘Morning Christy, ‘morning everyone
I feel sick and don’t understand why mainstream media doesn’t care. And I don’t understand why mainstream media doesn’t understand the affect this report and the truth behind it has on our democracy, our credibility and yes, our power in the world.
It’s as if Bush and his gang bit the feet off our country and wonders why it won’t run.
must be emboldened for proper effect and sent around the internetBay State Librul @ 12
Christy Hardin Smith @ 3
Not too long, Christy! Just right. Sy Hersh rocked me back on my heels yesterday. It could not be clearer. Rumsfeld LIED to Congress.
As I said in the last thread just as this was karma going up *props to Christy*: They parsed the truth to cover a big lie.
Rumsfeld and Bush and the civilian leadership didn’t need to see the pictures. They got vivid descriptions of what the pictures showed.
And a sidebar question from Mr. Sunshine: were these our military? Or BushCo’s private gestapo? No wonder so many military are coming back with PTSD and other mental illness.
I can see a Daily Show juxtaposition moment coming.
I am sick. This is America — the great shining beacon to the world — and Cheney and his fellow criminals have ruined its reputation. Who will be held responsible?
And so I look for hope to my dem representatives. Yes Amy Klobachar of MN, you! I will spotlight this her office. She is not doing enough or speaking out loudly enough for me.
I guess I will say thanks, Christy, for bringing to us, and to all of those lurking journalists — to whom I saw please report more on this. Don’t let this sink back into the cesspool which is our government these days. I am heartsick, physically sick, and angry as all get out.
I read Hersh’s article Saturday, and have been e-mailing it around, also printing it for non-wired friends. I sure hope Congress will get off their collective duffs and get to the bottom of this. As to Rumsfeld, he belongs before the world court, or at the very least being charged with perjury here in US.
thank you christy.
i greive what we have become, and i pray we can find a way to redeem ourselves.
katie Jensen @ 15
mainstream media WILL care if we MAKE them care…democrats have to go BALLISTIC
they have to say;
“the president KNEW fathers were forced into sodomizing their CHILDREN?
rumsfeld parents were FORCED into watching their girls get RAPED AND SODOMIZED?
these are SICK men…it’s NO wonder they lied us into war”
pepper that with prescott bush’s support for hitler and BING
impeachment will be right around the corner
this HAS GOT to be gamed
Can’t these people be prosecuted using the (Republican Congress) 1996 War Crimes Law? IIRC, as a Republican Law, it has the death penalty.
They didn’t see the “pictures.” They had the video.
I gave up on America six month’s ago.
I hope I’m dead wrong but we need a fucking
revolution… along with tons of tea
katie Jensen @ 15
CNN/Blitzer did an interview of Hersh yesterday. It’s one of Christy’s links.
egregious @ 23
ya, there is video too
you know what I cannot understand?
how could they actually take pictures and videos?
for what purpose, to take home and masterbate?…how friggin sick is this?
You know, journalists have been doing coverage on this — the problem is that editorial decisions relegate the print reporting of it to back pages. The WaPo, for instance, put the report from Amy Goldstein and Josh White — which was a decent summary of Hersh’s Taguba piece and some other reporting — on page A7. The NYTimes did something similar with it’s piece. Blitzer at least interviewed Hersh prominantly on their Sunday news magazine show, Late Edition, yesterday — the only such Sunday show to do so, mind you, but that’s where C&L got their clip.
So some coverage is there by reporters who have been trying to dig on this issue. The problem has been that no one has been willing to go on the record about a lot of this — until now, anyway. It is now up to all of us to push this forward in Congress and with the press. We have to lift up our voices, tell them we care about this and demand more action in all of our names.
selise @ 20
We can only redeem ourselves if we prosecute these criminals to the fullest extent of the law. And that includes TREASON.
And to those who think it would rock the republic; well, we need to. And we can and will survive the trial.
How else can we redeem ourselves?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 27
this is gonna be up to us…but this frontline is not gonna do the trick, it needs a serious edit…we need to show the most daming images and the most damning facts in rapid fire edits
then we all need to embed that video…I have no editing skills but if someone on this board does, this is it…this is the watershed moment
Plausible deniability my a**! Remember the old TV show Soap when the one charcter would snap his fingers and become “invisible?” This is just a variant on that theme only these lying scum suckers are snapping their fingers and pretending reality doesn’t exist and they can’t be seen as what they are.
I’m reminded in some ways of the old night watchman at the military HS I attended in the late 60s. He was your standard uber-religious type of the day, Holy-rollers as they were known. One year after the prom, he came upon a couple of cadets with their dates together and his response was “I doan wanna look, I doan wanna see! It’s a dain of iniqity!”
Rummie, Bush, et al doan wanna look or see as it would disturb their sense of themselves as upstanding citizens of the world
No matter how hallucinegenic it gets, I’m thinking I don’t want their drugs if it leads to acting as they do. May the good Dog/Goddess/Gaia/(insert name of your supreme being of choice here) give them their just desserts.
Good interview to listen to:
Inside Abu Ghraib
“In Fear Up Harsh, Tony Lagouranis talks about following orders to abuse prisoners at Abu Ghraib. And he explains why he became the first Army interrogator to publicly denounce the tactics he used.”
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopa…..2007/06/07
OT – i posted a summary of this week’s congressional hearings near the end of the previous thread, here.
katie Jensen @ 17
The media has been bought off. That’s probably the biggest factor. And why i skewed off from wanting to work in it years ago. I got whiff of it somehow before 9/11. I’m still not sure how i realized it, just that i didn’t like what i saw. Still don’t. All we can do is change it from here, and work to maybe get the better voices a platform. This is the new medium, and we have to work our asses off to keep it.
Christy -
How many international agencies have the authority to investigate violations of the Geneva Convention?
Thanks for getting the word out. I read Hersch’s article night before last and have been shaking my head in sadness ever since.
First Shinseki, now Taguba. This is what happens to generals who contradict the party line.
During the closing days of the retaking of the Phillipines, a small unit under the overall command of a General Yamashita committed atrocities in a village hundreds of miles away from the General, who had no communication with or operational control over them.
He was tried and executed after the war under the theory of command responsibility in trials similiar to the better publised Nuremberg Trials.
It’s time to prove this wasn’t Victors Justice. I know these enlisted men didn’t do all this crap without orders and those orders came from officers under orders themselves who were ordered to do things quite foreign to Americans.
The Army itself needs to root out this chain and destroy the people involved or risk losing their legitimacy in the eyes of the public, like they did after Vietnam and My Lai and other horror stories.
thank you christy, my coffee doesnt taste very good this morning, they make me sick to my stomach
dakine01 @ 29
Thank you for the first laugh of the day (more like 48 hrs). I loved that show!
We are better than this!!
I see a campaign slogan.
James…. ditto.
One man bears ultimate responsibility for this: George W. Bush, President of the United States.
I’m astounded and disgusted that he continues to hold that position.
Impeachment, conviction, trial at the Hague. Now.
space cowboy at 36 — You are welcome, I suppose. I’ve been having that same sick to my stomach feeling since I read Hersh’s piece this weekend. It’s taken me until this morning to calm down so that I could write something other than “Arrrrrrrgh! Those fucking lying CYA-conniving sacks of shit!” SIGH
I will match any donation to any candidate of any party up to $1000 for the candidate that first publicly mocks George W Bush and his initial response to the 9/11 attacks:
continue reading “My Pet Goat” and then going into hiding while New York was burning.
I say that because all of this tough talk that spews out of the mouths of both the W administration as well as the candidates is ridiculous – pasty white boys ain’t putting the fear of God into anybody willing to kill themselves for their own God.
chinois @ 35
This is what happens to person’s of character who stand in the way of what this administration wants, on all levels of government.
Flash, flash
Dateline: Washington DC
Date: September 16, 2009.
The Federal Court of DC has just unsealed
Sealed v Sealed… unfortunatley the names, dates, and main points have been redacted.
Also, the Senate Judiciary Committee released
Patrick Fitzgerald’s interviews with President Bush and VP Cheney taken in June of 2004. They
prove conclusively that Bush did lie to further the cover-up and
Dick Cheney did “out” Valerie Plame…
Cheney referred the matter to Tim Russert
and Bush, vacationing in his new home in
Bulgaria said “this is all political theater.”
It isn’t so much plausible deniability as much as blatant in your face lying. When they controlled congress they were safe. Now they do it because they count on the Dems aversion to a full blown constitutional crisis.
jayt @ 39
After it’s passed through the consultants, and triangulation strangulation mixer, and strained through the republicans will be mean to me filter, it’ ll be “In the context of the overall situation, it would seem to me that, perhaps certain irregularities might have occurred, and until such time that I examine all the facts, we may be able to offer a somewhat different approach.”
When articles that talk about the abuses is put on page A6 and not the front page, it’s a way to tell people that it’s not that important, no big deal.
In the same fashion as a kid who gets caught doing something bad and the parents just slap his wrists and say don’t do it again. The kid realizes that what he did wasn’t so bad or he would have gotten in more trouble.
I worked for DOD.
This shit has been going on for over forty
years.
Remember Agent Orange?
Defense covers their arse… always.
Steve Clemons has a helpful suggestion for Carl Levin-call Rumsfeld in “for a chat…under oath.”
http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..002187.php
Stephen at 33 — You know, I’m not certain what the answer is to that. Anyone know?
I had to stop reading because I’m at work and, now, crying.
I’ll resume when I’m back home.
Justice will surface; it has to.
Thank you for pointing us to this necessary information.
Re my comment at 47_preview is my friend. If a mod would be so kind to remove the words The images should be it would make a lot more sense. Sorry about that. And thank you for your help.
Crawling back under my rock now.
Bay State Librul @ 48
But, there’s still a difference between DOD’s normal practices (break the rules in far away places, keep it hidden) and this administration (tear up the Constitution and party on its grave).
Bay State Librul @ 24
Start reading your Trotsky and Che, the people running this government did. They pulled off a coup in ‘63 and it was so nice they did it twice with the 2000 election.
And every time we’ve heard the Dems are afraid to act because they don’t want to trigger a constitutional crisis.
Well, guess what? According to the president, it’s just a goddamn piece of paper and that’s the way they are treating it, like some insignificant piece of legislation passed by a liberal congress to whom they own no allegiance.
Yes, a revolution would be nice, but there’s a whole bunch of people in this country who will side with the oppressors just because they’ve been tricked into believing that a violent revolution to take our country back is a communist conspiracy while the political hijacking that has occurred is legitimate to save us fro the terrorists and just because elements of business, government, and religious groups are involved there is no hint of conspiracy.
The democrats don’t deserve any support, they are moribund as will be proven next year.
Wikipedia: International Criminal Court
I will post something about the International Court of Justice in a subsequent comment.
Wikipedia: International Court of Justice
Christy Hardin Smith @ 51
Some serious anti-trust action would help. However that would require muzzling the blue dogs.
albert fall @ 5
Good luck proving that. The man’s not technically astute enough to use email, not articulate enough to have said those words in an understandable form out loud to anyone who might give him up.
The little titmice pair and the cardinal pair are not getting along on the birdfeeder this morning. Much chattering outside the window this morning, and not the happy sort…
We are better than this.
Indeed.
And, per selise’s helpful list of hearings, I note that Tuesday at 9:30, the Senate Armed Services committee will hold a hearing on the nomination of a new secretary of the Army, and at 2:30, the Senate Intelligence committee will have a hearing on the nomination of a new CIA General Counsel.
This article by Sy Hersh ought to be a part of the questioning of both nominees.
“Let’s talk about the rule of law, gentlemen. Let’s chat a bit about accountability. Let’s discuss the ramifications of senior Pentagon leaders sticking their heads in the sand while torture is being conducted in the name of the United States of America. Let’s discuss the relationship of ‘other governmental agencies’ to these interrogations. . .”
A General Counsel to the CIA ought to be very conversant about such matters as torture vs. interrogation, the appropriateness of adhering to international agreements (Geneva, anyone?), etc. These could be very, very interesting hearings.
Speaking of Geneva, Stephen Parrish, my fast (and somewhat tongue-in-cheek) answer to your question at 34 is that lots of folks can investigate. The more critical question is “Who in the international community can hold violators of the GC accountable and make it stick?”
Good Morning Christy.
I’m guessing that, even with your previous law background and the many posts you’ve published as a blogger, writing this piece probably was one of the most difficult tasks you’ve ever had to bear in your career.
Deep, deep thanks to you for every single word.
All of this must be brought further out into the light of day, repeated and repeated, until NO one can say they weren’t aware.
We all knew at least something about the details. We’ve all been disgusted, repulsed, offended, often livid, shaking and weeping with anger and frustration.
Many of us have tried repeatedly to force MSM and Congress to deal with the underlying ISSUES AND the blatant unequivocal FACTS of this horrific situation.
Up until now, we have been the [missing] parents from Lord of the Flies, forced to watch, but seemingly helpless to interfere.
We MUST NOT give up. We MUST NOT let members Congress give in. How DARE they turn away and ignore our collective shame as a nation?!
Monsters are in power. They are determined to remain missing in action as the rest of our nation recoils from their shame. No more!
There is a festering wound on our face that must be lanced, so we can begin to redress the wrongs done in our name, and hopefully to heal as a nation.
Anyone who is not horribly ashamed and deeply angry has not been paying attention!
ENOUGH!
NO.MORE!
IMPEACH jrsh*tergonzo. Then throw them in jail and lose the key. No pardons. No way. NO!
james @ 54
Maybe they don’t deserve support, but if you don’t support them, you are effectively supporting the GOP.
In fact, the GOP doesn’t mind at all if all politicians are seen as scum sucking rats – the more people they can chase away from voting, the better for them. Keep that in mind while you pat yourself on the back for your immeasurably superior moral stature.
There seems no limit to the perfidy and dishonesty of this crew. They all need to be hauled into US federal courts on multiple charges and then turned over to the Hague to face war crimes and crimes against humanity charges. The sooner the better. I do not have words to describe my feelings about this and the people who made it happen.
Scarecrow @ 25
People are also forgetting that The New Yorker itself is MSM, and Sy Hersh has always been in front of the lies about Iraq, Abu Ghraib, and the plans for Iran all along.
jayt @ 39
Yes! I like that. Thanks jayt. *sniffle*
egregious @ 23
Yes.
Unless we see numerous impeachments, and numerous criminal proceedings against the perpetrators of the unethical, immoral, and criminal acts of this government and its enablers, we stand before the world exposed as a nation of pathetic hypocrites content to be led by the vilest of criminals.
Sorry for the OT Christy but thought you might want a peek at this –
The LA Time this morning:
U.S. attorneys fallout seeps into courts
http://tinyurl.com/25elrd
All people are creatures of habit. Know them their deeds. The whole admin is infected with the torturer’s mind set in everything they do. Reward those who agree with promotion/raises/praise/freedom and punish those who don’t with dismissal/demotion/scorn/imprisonment.
How reliable is Mike Allen and what should we do if Bushie pardons Scooter?
http://www.rawstory.com/showar…../4517.html
Here’s a oldie but goldie from Billmon’s Whiskey Bar: the following text was illustrated by a photoshopped view of the Bush Junta in the dock at the Hague, and titled ‘Scenes we’d like to see’, now sadly no longer available from the Billmon archives.. :”Defendants in the dock at the Ango-American War Crimes Trial of 2010, held at The Hague under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.
Of the 20 defendants shown here — the so-called “Republican Guard” — only one (Alan Greenspan, second row, second from right) was found not guilty, on the grounds that the destruction of the American economy and the global financial crash of 2008, while regrettable, did not constitute war crimes as defined by the Geneva Convention.
Another defendant (Ari Fleischer, front row, extreme right) received only a light sentence, as the court determined that lying to the American people was too common a crime to merit more severe punishment.
In a more controversial decision, former Secretary of State Colin Powell was spared any prison time at all, after the judges ruled that being seated between former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers for the entire eight-month trial constituted “punishment enough.”
Former Vice President Richard Cheney (second row, extreme left), who feigned narcolepsy throughout most of the trial, was committed to the newly established United Nations Hospital for the Criminally Insane, as was former National Security Advisor and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (next to Cheney), who insisted on being addressed as “Mrs. Bush” throughout the trial.
The remaining defendants were sentenced to life terms at the Guantanamo War Crimes Penitentiary — the same facility used to imprison the remaining leaders of the Al Qaeda terrorist organization, whose own war crimes trial began shortly after this picture was taken.” via http://www.docstrangelove.com/…..ive-years/
I Miss Billmon, and Elton Beard, and Charles Dodson; Steve Gilliard is dead, and I’m blogwhoring Imissfafblog,spot..
What other bloggers are MIA?
perris @ 26
Perris, hello. They took photos and videos b/c they were instructed to. And the photos and videos were passed along to someone, also as instructed. These people are way worse than you think. And what does not kill them makes them stronger. Clarification for Christy and all, I mean that in the sense of investigate, imprison and DO.NOT.PARDON.EVER. Or turn them over to the Hague. Or both.
As more and more info like this comes to light, the more likely it is that Republics will try to campaign on issues like gay marriage and pornography.
Christy, excellent and so sad.
Aren’t we just as guilty if we do nothing?
Bay State Librul @ 72
It is more likely “when Bush pardons Scooter”.
mc @ 50
Funny, I was just drafting a note to my Senator, Carl Levin, to ask him to do just that. Sending a copy of Christy’s post with it.
jayt @ 39
better for a campaign slogan would be something along these lines cuz we have to cast responsibility to those that caused this;
we are better then how far they brought us down
or something along that order, we have to show it was the administration and not the situation that brought us to this place
The very sad thing is that much of the Hersh article is “old news,” information that has been included, piecemeal, in numerous other reports. There have been reports for a long time, including the Congressional testimony – in whistleblower protection hearings, of Samuel Provance http://www.humanrightsfirst.in…..atment.pdf
about the abuse that was actually structured and implemented througth Military Intelligence. He and others talked about being surprised that the Taguba investigations were limited to the Military Police, when it was pretty widely percieved that the worst abuses and the leadership on the abuses came from M.I.
Here’s a very recent piece by Tara McKelvey (Monstering) in American Prospect where she talks to Provance. http://www.prospect.org/cs/art…..abu_ghraib
There has been report after report about Rumsfeld’s direct, day to day involvement and supervision of the “20th hijacker” torture.
Have you seen any charges brought against anyone for some of what was mentioned by Taguba? Sodomizing detainees? Any inquiries into the birth of a child by a long term female detainee? Abusing a 16 yo as a Yoo experiment into making his father talk, not so much to get info from the 16 yo.
Provance’s testimony was before the subcommittee that Chris Shays chaired and yet Shays went back to CT in his run for office and – despite having sat through that testimony and other testimony – had the nerve to tell the voters that Abu Ghraib was just a sex ring of a few rogue soldiers.
The thing is, we’ve had 6 years of the Department of Justice and top lawyers and Inspector Generals at DOJ, FBI, DOD, NSA, CIA etc. issuing, over and over, the stamp of approval on this kind of thing; we’ve had DOJ go into the courts to defend it and cover it up and damn near sing its praises; we’ve had some of the architects of this kind of approach get softball, puff piece after puff piece and the truth is, it’s worked.
There won’t be any big reaction. That would and should have come when the toture memo was initially revealed – instead, there was nothing and most importantly – there was a nonreaction in the legal community, both within DOJ and without. The media took something like Gonzales memo to Bush and misdirected attention to the “quaint” references and away from the fact that Gonzales also said that unlawful enemy combatant designation would help protect the admin for its existing actions under the War Crimes Act. How anyone reads that memo and comes away discussion the use of hte word “quaint” instead of the use of the Statutory War Crimes reference – I’ll never understand. But it happened and it’s now “old news.”
People within DOJ who have assidiously worked to protect a process that now includes kidnapp, disappearanes, child abuse, torture detentions of US citizens and introduction of torture statements into the courts via arrest warrants and even in the courtroom itself as the basis of confessions – they are more likely to appear in even pieces here as “heroes” bc they had one or two things they wouldn’t do – than in pieces examining the things they were perfectly willing to do.
There’s no real way to manufacture outrage now, when the population and media have been trained, through 6 years of legal indifference, to believe that there is just not that much going on or that it is justified or that it was necessary or that, in the end, it is fine for the President, DOD and its tentacles, DOJ and its tentacles – to all engage in immoral and illegal behaviour because, if all else fails, they can just stamp it “state secrets” and go on.
And besides, there’s American Idol and Dancing with the Stars.
There will never be any real accountability, in large part because we do not have, and may never regain, a respect for law within our own Department of Justice. Mike Nifong may get disbarred for his improper press conferences, but DOJ lawyers who issue memos soliciting kidnap and abuse or who hold their own unethical press conferences or who file State Secrets coverups or assist in burying excupatory evidence for GITMO detainees, cover up torture behind statements tendered to the courts, etc. – - they won’t be losing licenses any time soon.
We just aren’t the same country any more.
Whoops, I clicked the wrong button too many minutes ago, so I’d appreciate the Mods’ help in deleting my previous #63.
[Mod: done]
=====
Thanks, CHS and all you other FDL commenters. This blog keeps me sane. I weep for my country and the moral corruption that yes, emanates from the top, but which is accepted by the co-opted media and Republican party, and by the super-rich oligarchy that controls them and profits from them. It almost makes me cry, now, to see the Stars and Stripes… the flag I swore loyalty to as a kid so many years back. I fly it on my own home, to reclaim it from the jingoistic yahoos who have so foully besmirched it. I cannot help thinking, when I see it flying high anywhere, that is has become a reviled symbol across the world. Yes, I I cry for my beloved country and for those it has killed, wounded, victimized, illegally imprisoned, tortured and robbed both at home and abroad.
=====
I’m real happy that several ‘Pups are taking part by now. I hope to “see” you there too. There’s even a ‘PupPoll where you can quickly (and anonymously) cast your vote about possible future FDL formats.
I’ll be re-posting this invitation in later blogposts.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 60
OT musings also into birdieland…
around here too, i’ve noticed that both seem to react to eachother’s calls a bit – kind of a surprise when i first caught it.
i fear neither is too too bright*. strange since chickadees, closely related to titmice, seem among the brightest & most savvy lil’ critters out there.
funny how we parents get antsy as our kids grow & mingle more & more with “outsiders”. after all, we parents have “important stuff to do.”
*one of the most famous ethologists ever, once said something to the effect that [paraphrased badly, w/ apologies]:
“There’s no shame for a partridge in being stupid, as long as she lays 20 eggs a year.”
/OT
Thank you Christy. You’re very special.
Badwater @ 75
Well, good luck to them. The last wedge isssue they came up with hasn’t worked out all that well. On Sunday, George Will said that if this keeps up they will be picking up the pieces of the GOP with tweezers.
S.O.S. from MA @ 80
Thanks for your help :)
We are better than this, indeed.
Our nation’s founding fathers most certainly were:
[source: Roots of US war prisoners’ rights run deep, by James Norton for Christian Science Monitor, 14-JUN-06]
I am so tired of the right-wing’s perversion of every principle that America was founded upon. It’s as if they have deliberately sought to undermine the context of this entire country and make it anew in the form of some other nation, an anti-revolution of sorts that unwinds everything this country fought to be.
These disgusting behaviors are simply and abhorrently un-American.
Christy – you’ve got mail.
Is there any member of the Bu$h Administration that given the opportunity has not lied to Congress?
Mary @ 80
true enough, but i can’t imagine you giving up any more than the rest of us will. thank you.
A’57 @ 69
well said.
A couple of points (if repeated sorry, I haven’t gotten to the comments yet):
During the course of putting together my scandals list, one of my realizations was that Donald Rumsfeld was not the loon and buffoon at the Pentagon as he often came across at press conferences. He wasn’t just Dick Cheney’s man there. He was a seriously dangerous man in his own right.
Major General Geoffrey Miller retired July 31, 2006. His retirement was held up because he is about the only general officer ever to have taken the 5th rather than testify at a court martial. When he eventually did so, he was allowed to retire but without an extra star.
Another name to keep in mind is Major General Barbara Fast. I’m not sure if that is her current rank. Fast was Miller’s Number 2 at Guantanamo. After Miller left Abu Ghraib which he took over after Karpinski’s departure and so after the scandal broke, Fast became the military intelligence chief in Iraq. She was up to her eyelids in all of this but is one of the few people to have come through it with her career intact. Go figure.
BTW, I’m getting a little tired of this “politicizing of Crime.” It’s starting to make crime get a bad name!
theExile @ 87
More to the point, is there anything that the Busheviks have not lied about?
OT, but thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, for getting rid of the little colorful things at the bottom of your posts, they made my eyes hop and I had to make sure they were below the bottom of the screen.
thank you again
The President of the United States is sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution, which via Article VI makes Senate-ratified treaties, e.g., the Geneva Conventions, “the supreme law of the land.” The President therefore has a obligation to implement Article 129 of the Geneva Conventions:
Failure to do so would constitute an impeachable offense.
DrDick @ 90
GOOD QUESTION.
Peterr @ 7:55 am -
You’re right, but I did have a valid rationale: as I drafted my comments, I was thinking in terms of investigations to build a case so that someone in the international community can hold violators of the Geneva Convention accountable. Since the United States is not a member of the International Criminal Court, what other recourse at the international level might be available absent prosecution at the national level?
i agree with you 100%, Christie. that’s exactly how i felt when i read the article yesterday and watched the video clip this morning.
we really do need impeachments: gonzales, cheney and bush.
then rumsfeld, wolfowitz, feith, cambone, casey and sanchez need to be sent to the hague. that is the only way that America can ever be reinstated as an honorable member of the world community.
this government has committed crimes against humanity and we have done very, very little about it. In fact, as of yet, we have done nothing about it.
Hugh @ 89 –
hugh list is here.
fahrender @ 95
thank you.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 95
Perhaps wigwam @ 93 has, if not the answer, a suitable mechanism for reaching an answer.
wigwam @ 93
Unfortunately, just one of a plethora of legitimate grounds. I keep looking for someone in the Democratic party to develop a spine and impeach the lot of them.
I’m against looking to The Hague for justice. I think it’s our responsibility as Americans to try these criminals. If The Hague indicts them, good! But we need to hold them accountable under OUR Constitution.
I read Mr. Hersh’s New Yorker article over the weekend, and have felt sickened and disgusted since. I can still see Donald Rumsfeld’s leering obscene grin and hear him saying “oh, my goodness” in one of those hearings, like he’s on the good ship lollipop. God, I hate that man. I’ve never in my life felt such sheer raw choking hatred for people I will never meet, as I do for these Bush people.
I have a so-called friend who has requested that I not talk w/her about the war crimes being committed. She says there is nothing she can do about what it going on and that it makes her so unbearably sad to think about it. She does like her American Idol, and she continues to attempt to not-so-subtly try to talk with me about her friend Jesus Christ and her deep spiritual beliefs almost every time we talk. I don’t talk with her much any more–too much urges to slap the crap out of her. But I wonder how many people are going along just like her, not wanting to be informed. I will be in touch with my legislators today. I will be contacting my local newspaper to insist they run a front page story about the fact that Rumsfeld lied to Congress. I will do whatever else I can think of, but how can people just sit and not want to know? Sorry for the ranting, but my head and heart are exploding.
oooooooohhhh selise 96
MOST appropriate! THANKS!
Hugh’s list needs to be spread far and wide, and often!
Hugh: THANK YOU for an incredible gift! We have no excuses, gang…
Elliott @ 101
Personally, I do not see it as and either/or question. I certainly think that they should be prosecuted in the US courts to the fullest extent for all of their crimes (see my post upthread), but also in the Hague for violations of international law.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 94
The War Crimes Act of 1996 made war crimes into federal offenses. The MCA of 2006 diluted it somewhat, but it was in effect at the time most of these crimes were committed. I don’t know whether or not they can be prosecuted under that law today.
OMG!
I always knew Rummy oozed evil. You could feel it emanate from the TV screen. But, I honestly didn’t think there was this kind of information available to illustrate so clearly what a decidedly sick mind he has. If there were any sort of justice in the capitol, it would have him incarcerated to answer these lies immediately. It goes beyond appalling. It simply leaves a sick, empty feeling in one’s stomach.
What to do, what to do? When the powers that be won’t police themselves and set up impenetrable barriers for anyone else to do so — what to do?
Elliott @ 10
go to youtube and dial up leonard cohen’s “the future”. one version of it is a montage of which many photos from abu graib are a part. it is a powerful expression of what happened. it’s not easy to watch but it is very expressive.
johnSwifty @ 105
bookmark this thread, for starters….
Steve @ 22
Looks like the answer is no.
From Wiki 1996 War Crimes:
The adoption of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, by rewriting the War Crimes Act, appears to immunize the Bush administration and others against possible legal challenges regarding war crimes,[6] and by abolishing habeas corpus it effectively makes it impossible for detainees to challenge crimes committed against them.[7] Any investigation into possible wrongdoing in the War on Terror seems unlikely within United states and therefore the Center for Constitutional Rights and the International Federation for Human Rights have started legal proceedings in Germany, invoking universal jurisdiction.[8]
Adie @ 107
Aye and send it to anyone you know with a conscience.
Elliott @ 100
I think both are in order then
first we hold them to our justice system with the world informed that they get sent to international trial there after regardless of the result
we won’t have to worry about double jeapardy since we will make sure we leave a few crimes unprosecuted
we need to reconcile, this needs to be done on a “global” level as well as the national level
let’s bring that “globalization” to the level the corporatists rue
Stephen Parrish at 56 and 57
Thanks for posts on the International Criminal Court and the International Court of Justice. It appears that the IJC is not the appropriate venue to pursue allegations of war crimes against individual members of this administration. And you note that the US has rather conveniently not joined the ICC. So my question is this — just because the US has not joined, can the members of ICC be prevented from prosecuting individuals in this administration for their torture policies?
Secondly, I would like to echo Steve’s questions at 22, and follow up with… which domestic agencies have the authority to investigate and PROSECUTE members of the Bush administration for their crimes?
Sunshine is no longer enough. It is time for legal proceedings to bring these thugs to justice.
fahrender @ 95
what we NEED to do is to surround the ShiteHouse with about a MILLION chanting, angry people waving pitchforks and torches, and keep ‘em there til the choppers come to evacuate the disgraced regime to the airport and into exile.
that’s how they’d do it in a CIVILIZED country…
btw, if I may BLOGWHORE:
Predictably, in a putative excess of zeal, the fascist fux of Homeland Security and the notoriously brutal,stupid LA County pigs FUCKED UP, big-time! The deported a US citizen to mexico, where he has disappeared.
Read all about it at
http://walled-in-pond.blogspot.com
An airstrike in Afghanistan has reduced by at least seven the number of hearts and minds the “coalition” now has to win over to achieve peace. AP seems to correlate this fact with the detention of a man thought to be involved in a recent bombing.
http://thewell-armedlamb.blogspot.com
A fine eclectic array of familiar and unfamiliar tunes to accompany your coffee and picque your fancy: from George Harrison and The Clash to a Nigerian duo called Zule Zoo; at
http://http://woodyguthriesguitar.blogspot.com/
have a fine summer day…
DrDick @ 103
I agree, I just mean we can’t pass it off to them without trying them here.
GordonM @ 63
No, Gordon, I won’t buy into that argument.
By supporting either of these parties the people of this country are supporting a system that is dedicated to draining the life blood from them and their kids.
Have you noticed how hard it is for formerly middle class families to get out of debt? Do you know how many kids in the fucking United States of America are starving and don’t have health insurance? Do you actually believe that the democrats who are part of this system care one way or the other that the ultimate goal that the system has for us is to become greeters at wal-mart after thirty or forty years of working somewhere else only to be loaded into one of the shopping carts and dumped when we unceremoniously die at our stations.
No, Gordon, don’t use that ridiculous argument. It doesn’t work anymore because the parties are interchangeable. It’s the system that needs to be brought crashing down because at this point the rot is endemic and systemic.
which is why it is gonna be hard–if not impossible–to restore the right of habeas corpus before 2009…
The War Crimes Act of 1996:
Elliott @ 114
True. Either we prosecute them or we become accessories after the fact and share the guilt.
linda @ 102
I don’t know how you’re doing it; I’ve cut people like this out of my life rather than let them get under my skin. We simply do not share the same values and I don’t want them around my children. My kids should know that I will not only talk the talk but walk the walk on issues like torture, and I will not tolerate the malignant acceptance through deliberate ignorance.
And I wouldn’t have any problem at all with asking someone who claims such alignment with Christ why it is that the torture of Jesus was okay with her. That’s what all the scourging and beatings and crucifixion was, wasn’t it? Torture carried out in the name of the government?
What would Jesus do, after all? And why aren’t they so willing to turn the other cheek?
DrDick @ 117
Yes.
I amended my post
“I agree, I just mean we can’t pass it off to them without trying them here.”
linda @ 101
Honey, you are not alone and please do not apologize for ranting. If we do not rant about such things as this, then our hearts are as cold as the hearts of the men who do such things to their brothers and sisters in the name of freedom, in the name of anything at all, as if any justification can be made for what they have done to them, to us, to our country, which I no longer recognize.
I have friends too who do not want to talk about such things and they shut me up a long time ago when I realized trying to enlighten people around me was pointless. Being single and childless, I was and am particularly astonished at the mothers, disinterested and distracted by their daily duties and work. Yes, I understand you’re very busy ladies, but if this were your child, if this were your child . . . ?
Steve @ 108
I spent a bit of time analyzing the MCA right after it was passed. From what I could tell, it’s not quite the get-out-of-jail card that the Bushies hoped it would be. I don’t have time to review them now, but here are some of my notes on the matter.
wigwam @ 92
Are you suggesting impeachment of Senators?
Rayne @ 118
You know what Rayne, I’ve had to do that, too. I can tell you, I don’t have a lot of friends left. But, unfortunately for me, I am allergic to cognitive dissonance.
By the way, the term “plausible deniability” has never applied to Rumsfeld’s denial of his knowledge of Abu Ghraib. Even without knowing about the January/February emails Sy Hersh describes in his article, the fact that John Yoo and others put so much effort into their Torture Memos over at DoJ, any denial of the practice of torture by any high ranking official in this administration is entirely IMplausible.
Prairie Sunshine @ 122
whoever impeaches first satisfies the obligation and wins the day
you think the president initiates articles of impeachment against senators as a trump so they can’t initiate those articles against him?
[joking]
Hilde with an E @ 69
Read this early a.m. and thought, “Well, the fallout is finally seeping into the ground water.” I don’t expect to see any additional MSM comment on the subject…….as per usual.
wigwam @ 104
IANAL but do believe that the prosecution is based on the laws in effect at the time the crime is committed.
Prairie Sunshine @ 122
To make it work, we’d have to impeach about half of the Supreme Court first.
dakine01 @ 127
a friendly judge would find the case moot and dismiss
ianal either but this is my belief
Mary @ 79
go ahead, Mary, give up. but please refrain from trying to get the rest of us to follow you. we may fail but we will not give up.
james @ 114
So what is your alternative short of violent, armed insurrection?
Waxman has the Susan Ralston deposition up and other stuff too: LIIIINK!!!!
Mary @ 80
mary, you remind me of a talk mark danner gave at stanford. it was part of a teach in with sy hersh, philip zimbardo and many others. i recommend listening to the whole thing, but mark danner’s is really, imo, a must listen.
here are the podcasts for all of them.
johnSwifty @ 109
AND the rest a’ th’ varmints too!
there ya’go!
Mandrake @ 123
I’ve noticed a change in many of those friends of mine, they are starting to see the light, we just need to turn up the watts.
“Recall, for example, that Karl Rove’s security clearance violations have still not been investigated by the internal arm in the White House charged with such duties because of ‘the ongoing criminal investigation.’”
Congress called them to the carpet on this in hearings a few months back… has there been any follow-up since? I remember lawmakers wanting a reason as to why no investigation was never begun.
Rayne @ 118
Actually if you believe the gospels Christ didn’t encourage his followers to act against government. He told them that their reward would be in the next world. That’s why religion is always such a good tool for whatever a tyrant wants to use it for.
My ex and I started going our separate ways when I refused to let my kids watch American Idol or America Dances or any of those nonsense shows while our kids are dying in a needless war. I tried teaching my kids about what happened in Vietnam, what myself and others had to endure, what the war did to this country.
I told them Bush was destroying the constitution, that the news media was owned by the corporations, that we could easily lose this country.
I was in Paris with my son, who was 7 at the time, the day before we invaded Iraq. There were pictures of Marines with ferocious looks on their faces on the cover of Paris Match. Another magazine had a picture of Tommy Franks sneering and pointing his finger at someone. That was the picture of America around the world thanks to Bush, I told my son.
Thank God he never forgot it. He knows what’s being done everyday in our name and he wants to know when we’re moving from this country so he doesn’t become part of the killing machine.
I didn’t spend 21 months in Vietnam for this.
fahrender 130
Deep THANKS!
Who voted for these @**holes?
james @ 115
james, we had that conversation in the dark days of 2004 with Howard Dean, when he asked his supporters whether he should run again in 2008, start a third party, or remake the Democratic Party.
Overwhelming we opted for the third. We all of us knew that he would get the same treatment he’d gotten during the first run, negating him as a serious candidate. We all of us knew that there was NO chance in hell that a third party could generate a serious threat to either the Republicans or the Democrats by 2008, and that a third party formed inside the 2004-2008 window would be as dilutive to Democratic candidate’s power as the Greens were in 2000, throwing the next four years to the Republicans.
So we went with option 3, and the first step we took was getting him elected to DNC chair, in direct opposition to the entrenched powerbase of the party. Continuing to work on getting solid progressive grassroots candidates like Ned Lamont to run is part of the next step, as well as getting folks like me and my friends to take over, hollow out and remake the local party apparatus to support the same kinds of grassroots candidates.
At the very same conversation we had with Dean, he appealed directly to each of us to get more directly engaged with the Democratic Party, inside the party rather than out of it, and to run for office at every level from dogcatcher to Senator. In short, we were to work on taking back the Democratic Party FIRST before we could take back the nation.
What you see in progress is a continuation of that assimilation process from the inside out in concert with the assimilation from the outside in. We are dismantling a system that took generations to build and will take another generation to rebuild; it is not something that happens overnight, and it will take persistence and pragmatism and careful strategy combined from the inside, with a persistent barrage of verbal firebombs from the outside.
I personally see your comments as undermining the efforts of those who are working diligently to take back the party, diluting our energy. I’m going to pointedly ignore them and tell you that unless you are actively working within your local party to take them over and remake them, you are part of the headwinds against us. You also seem to think that those of us in the grassroots turn a blind eye to what the incumbents and old school entrenched power in the Dem Party are doing; you would be very, very wrong. I can say I know people who are actively hunting down solid progressives to run in primaries against Dem incumbents; can you?
Bush, Cheney and their good buddies must think that crossing their fingers or toes makes oaths and treaties and agreements invalid or inoperative. 6-year-old thinking (as in the way 6-year-olds think).
They need to be taken out of office and locked up, for our safety as well as theirs.
The Military Commissions Act of 2006:
Henry definitely had his Wheaties this morning.
dakine01 @ 131
At this point there is no alternative, but the chattering classes won’t realize that until November 2008 when it will be too late.
In case you haven’t noticed, no one is going to jail for the crimes committed by this crew except Scooter. Kind of sad, no?
Scooter is going to jail and the rest of the crew keeps delivering envelopes to the godfather in the white house.
Sorry, I’m done talking.
Rayne @ 118
I live in the Reddest of areas in a Red state. I can’t afford the luxury of cutting such people out of my or my family’s life. It is sometimes very frustrating dealing with the authoritarianism and dogmatic groupthink of fungelicals, but a) we need to know the enemy, and b) I’ve made headway and converted people from those backgrounds on all issues involving the war and the erosion of human liberties at home and abroad.
What has served better than asking them “What would Jesus do?” is to ask them “Would you be concerned about the government doing [name any of hundreds of outrageous acts by the Bush Junta] if Hillary Clinton were President?”
Mandrake @ 120
Mandrake, someone cannot be enlightened while they are consciously asleep and most of those who subscribe to blind faith are comatose. Silence around these individuals will help keep you sane and conserve your energy. When they awake and begin to ask questions, you will be able to guide them … patience is virtue.
Linda, there are going to be many more sickening revelations coming out … we’ve all suspected criminal actions from Rumsfeld, Bush and friends and exposure is the only way that the people will pressure their members of Congress to impeach and imprison these criminals. Until there are weekly protests by millions of Americans, blue dog Dems and Repugs will sit on their hands. Thanks for all you are doing to right these wrongs, and take the time to daily rejuvenate yourself … it’s going to be a long fight.
new thread
Frank Probst @ 143
Well, I just hope he has fed the Busheviks their dose of industrial strength Ex-Lax. I am looking forward to multiple changes of undergarments.
Mary,
I get tired too, and I’m not even in the US. Firedogs, if this is the same Mary who has been here for so long (although quieter now than before), she has every reason to be tired and disgusted. If she can’t say it here, where can she say it? fahrender, you are not in this country, so perhaps it doesn’t seem so much like a desert. Some encouragement would perhaps be more useful than a dismissal.
Mary, hang in. We will do this.
phred @ 111
The International Criminal Court at the Hague is based on the Rome Statute.
http://www.un.org/law/icc/statute/99_corr/2.htm
Under this statute, only states which have signed on to the court, the UN Security Council, and the Hague prosecutor can prefer charges for investigation. They can do so against citizens of countries which are non-signees but it is at this point that things become very difficult. We have a veto at the UN and our policy is not to allow prosecution of US nationals. Signatory countries could only suggest charges if crimes occurred against them or their nationals on the territory of a signatory country or their ships or aircraft. The US has used bilateral agreements with many countries to avoid this possibility. The political price for most of the others would be too high to entertain seriously. As for the Hague prosecutors, they have shown no evidence of initiating investigations without international approval. Even so they would be limited by the Rome Statute and given the convoluted diplomatic experience of our presence in Iraq which has been sanctioned (after the fact) by UN Resolutions and the Iraqi government, the likelihood of a Hague prosecution of American political leaders for Iraq is effectively zero.
Rayne @ 140
I actually worked as a poll watcher in my county covering almost the whole county to ensure that people weren’t intimidated at the polls in the 2006 elections.
I contributed to Hall’s campaign and encouraged others to unseat the GOP puppet we had here in NY-19.
The vote for the supplemental was instructive…Emanuel and all the wrong people re directing this new Democratic congress.
I’m no longer a registered Democrat.
I personally don’t care if you ignore me or not. I spent 21 months in a war that was a lie. I was wounded twice. If you want to keep on talking and being disappointed, go right ahead.
Work within the system; and you are right, I am at headwinds against you because it’s the system that is the problem.
jim oconnor @ 139
Who didn’t bother to vote?
Who stole votes, purged bonafide voters from the rolls, disrupted/shut down/subverted/overturned/stole the 2000 election, and subsequent elections???
Who S-E-L-E-C-T-E-D our current administration DESPITE legitimate votes?
we’ve got some work to do, folks…
don’t give up, Mary.
sorry to intrude on your mood, but we desperately need your help.
thanking you in advance, as well as for all you’ve done before….
and don’t kill the messenger, please…
thanking you kindly, ma am … ;->
elliott @35: I really hope you are right. I really hope this is a discussion we can continue, even though I know we’ve jumped to a new thread. But I imagine as the New Yorker article gets more air time that this will continue to resurface, at least, I pray it will. I actually need to finish the article. Some of this is stuff I already knew from a while back, heard through Hersh and dribs and drabs from other places.
That’s why I know I probably appear pathetically uninformed on here sometimes, I had to start “skimming” things lest I become too enraged to function. If I read in depth as I used to about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, I’d get too upset and rattle everybody else’s apple cart.
But I am going to read this one in full to see what has surfaced since Hersh’s first Abu Ghraib report.
And so let us all who believe in a higher power, pray that this time, such horrors committed in the name of our country, will not be swept under the rug and will not be glossed over by the media, and it will get the attention it deserves and that the outcry will be so thunderous in its righteousness that the people will demand justice and complete sunlight, not now but YESTERDAY!
Ed*ard Teller @ 145
BINGO!!! (from a fellow red-stater swimming in a sea of righties)
HotFlash @ 149
Absolutely right, HotFlash. Many of us who live outside of America can help by encouraging those like Mary who make the effort to fight this tyranny.
Mary, the tide is turning, even though it does not seem so at times. Please take time to refresh and rejuvenate, we need people like you for the final 18 months.
Rayne @ 140 “I can say I know people who are actively hunting down solid progressives to run in primaries against Dem incumbents; can you?”
Thank you Rayne! I am unwilling to quit the day job to go into politics (and frankly I don’t have the temperament for it), but I am damn glad that you and others are willing to do the heavy lifting for the rest of us.
If there is anyone here who can make a list of people to contact (beyond my congresscritters) to light a fire under them to begin prosecuting each and every member of our pro-torture administration, I would make good use of it…
130/138 – I’m not tyring to give up or lead the way for anyone. People make their own choices. Adie’s choice is that Sherrod Brown is a wonderful progressive and she can hold that thought side by side with chiming in here that torture is such a bad bad thing.
Heaven forbid that anyone should point out the factual discrepancies if it ruins the narrative. Where in the world you make the determination that I am “giving up” because I point out that the very heroes that get sold throughout the online and offline media are and have been engaged in the things this post discusses or engaged in legallizing and immunizing them.
I actually have this stubborn quirk of not giving up and not letting people adopt the Bushian atttitudes and platitudes of throwing up catchphrases and glow-y words, while at the same time supporting and praising the immoral and depraved architects.
But if it bothers your sleep, I’ll try not to interrupt again.
Waccamaw @ 126
The attorneys scandal points up 3 important things about this Administration.
1. They think they will never get caught.
2. If they do get caught, they think they will never be punished.
3. They never think about the consequences of their actions to the country or its citizens.
Hugh @ 150
I was afraid of that. Thanks for the explanation Hugh — I really appreciate it!
Hugh @ 158
Mostly, they never think about any of the consequences of their actions. In fact I doubt they do much “thinking” at all.
Ed*ard Teller @ 145
I live in an extremely red area of a state that has been on the bubble. I came to the realization in 2000 that the people I thought were friends were really nothing more than acquaintances by reason of circumstance; there were blue people out there and I had made NO effort to seek them out or to help them with their cause.
The deeper I have gotten into activism I have found that many people are red because they’ve had no alternatives presented to them. Not just by asking them to think differently, but by virtue of providing an actual doorway or venue that is an alternative; remember that far too many red staters shut down as soon as they hear the name Clinton in any context.
The ones I have cut out of my life are those who are completely and totally blind and with whom I have nothing in common save for my husband’s job or my job; I no longer allow work to define who I will spend my time. Looking back I’ve had far too many occasions in the past when I’ve nearly bitten my tongue through while harangued by these same people about my morals and beliefs. No more. I am fighting back, and it often means drawing the line.
Mary @ 157
mary, please don’t stop telling the truth here. we’ve got to be able to let go of our own myths if we want to ask others to let go of theirs. thank you for every word you’ve written.
Rayne @ 161
I have spent most of my life in Red states (except for 12 years in Chicago). I can honestly say that I have never had any friends who did not generally share my core values. I have had acquaintances and coworkers who did not, but never friends. This despite the fact that I am on the far left of the American political spectrum (though more center left in European terms).
Adie @ 138
you’re welcome, adie.
it just chaps my ass when people want to throw in the towel. that’s what those arrogant assholes expect us to do. and they will keep doing exactly what they’ve been doing unless we, not congress or anybody
else for that matter, create such a shit storm that they have to stop.
Mary 157
Please continue commenting often. Your ideas and opinions are greatly valued at the Lake, by all that I know of.
Rayne @ 140
I agree with you and Howard Dean … improve the system … it is more timely than scrapping it and starting all over again.
Bill Clinton said, “There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right with America.”
This was his take on a self-improvement motto, “If you focus on your strengths, you can overcome all your weaknesses.”
America does not need to reinvent the wheel, it will take less time and effort to improve the system.
Rayne (@ 140):
i’m with you 100%.
Rayne @ 161
My approach seems to work better as many of my far-right acquaintences know how much I loathe the Clintons.
Mary @ 79
You are sooo right! The only heartening development is that the average voter is now to the left of the average democratic congressman. The voters are progressive in principle, but when a name gets attached to those principles, they inevitably find unacceptable flaws in that individual. Perhaps progressives need to learn how to “project authenticity,” as in “be sincere, whether you mean it or not.” ;-)
james @ 114
Then explain this please.
On average there is a difference, and that difference is significant. It may not be as big as you or I would like, but it is still significant.
Look, my Rep is a Blue Dog, but we’ve been putting pressure on him for years, and he’s now against the war. They’re not great, most are not even good, but they’re still a damn sight better than what you get by giving up.
Mary @ 157
Last I heard, it was acceptable for readers and commenters here to lament when their hearts are broken over rather substantial issues. I am sorry that anyone made you feel you do not have that right or that you are somehow selfish in expressing your frustration here on this thread. I personally do not interpret venting out of pure exhaustion of fighting against the ruling powers (esp. on the matter at hand!) as a invitation for others to “give up.”
I hope the mods will not disagree with me when I say that you are perfectly entitled to come here and express your justifiable frustration and pain, as I have often done.
That does not mean that we will not get the necessary work done. But if we cannot refresh our souls with the support of like-minded folk, some of us rather sensitive creatures are, indeed, in danger of wearing out emotionally to the point of inertia.
james @ 151
Good for you. But that wasn’t enough no matter whether you wer Dem, Green, Libertarian, what have you in the last 4 elections if they are able to launch so-called “voter fraud” cases just before the election and were able to manipulate tabulated votes as research into Ohio’s 2004 election suggests.
Takes more than money to win; it takes knocking on doors and canvassing and phonebanking. Much of that cannot be purchased.
On that I agree wholeheartedly; I believe that Steny Hoyer was the wrong choice for whip, I believe that Emmanuel has rightfully been deposed as DCCC chair and that his headstrong resistance to the 50-State Strategy implemented by the DNC cost us at least 5 seats. No argument there, and I will donate to any candidate willing to primary against Rahm.
I encouraged my stepson to join the military in 1999, under a different president and a different nation. I sat by the phone afraid to leave the house for fear of missing his calls from Iraq, and have had to nurse him through panic attacks from his PTSD, in no small part because the VA has regularly f*cked with him. I live with the heartsick guilt that I played a role in this because of my foolish naivete. I don’t need your guilt trip, I already have my own — and it drives me to go to war from within my own party to take it back.
As Eli Pariser said, We bought it, we own it, and we’re taking it back.
I will not be done with my work until there is a complete unwinding of the Republican-wrought damage to this country — and then I’ll work a third party, possibly headed by Howard Dean, to push the Democrats to avoid the fate of the GOP. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, but fragmented power cannot overcome the consolidated.
Ed*ard Teller @ 168
Then you are already “inside” with them. It does not work if they believe you are “outside” of them; they will not admit to outsiders that Clinton would ever be permitted to become president, so it’s generally a prompt for a laugh and a dismissive waive of the hand if the hypothetical “What would HRC do?” is used with them from the outside.
White House briefing with Snow
CSPAN 1
this is for james and for the people who are feeling as hopeless as he is, and it ties in with what other people are saying.
I am here because Granny D sent me. She said:
(the full text of her address is here)
It is a plan and it is workable. And frankly, I don’t think that a revolution has much chance — takes too many people. This takes only a few good women and men, and there are enough on the ‘Lake to make it happen.
Rayne @ 173
it’s a shame, though, to make Hillary a bogeyman
HotFlash @ 149
hot flash,
i am living in germany at the moment but my children, grand children, my sister and brother and their children all live in the u.s and i left there less than a year ago. i follow everything that is going on quite closely.
i live amongst people who view me with some disregard because i am an American. there are times that i get discouraged as well. being seventy years old i am very aware of how the ideals of this country have been trampled upon by any number of presidents and congress persons.
if mary feels defeated, i can relate to that and i don’t wish her ill, but i still stand by what i said. we need some genuine outrage here. we do not need people to dilute the energy.
Just posted at RawStory (excerpt)
I so much love the smell of desperation in the morning!!!
I would think if the RePukes remember, the memo was all about shutting up and discrediting the Wilsons. Subpoena away, I’m not so sure you will like what she may say. She is an American Patriot, you sir, as a RePuke are something else!
wigwam @ 128
no less an authority than former Chief Justice Rhenquist noted, in a unanimous decision, that the sole authority for impeachment lays with the Senate.
phred @ 156
phred, I’d like to suggest you contact the local Democracy for America and see what they are doing at local level. They may be able to point you to local campaigns that need your help when you have free time, like phonebanking in the evening, door-to-door canvasssing or literature drops on the weekend, or cash donations. Vet the candidate and then help as you can; this is democracy in action, and anything you do will help take back our democracy.
HotFlash @ 175
I agree completely with these sentiments. There are significant structural problems with the current system, which will require fundamental reforms, but there is really no viable alternative to working inside the system other than revolution. Unfortunately, revolutions generally tend to end badly (think the French and Russian revolutions). One of the problems with the current system is that it totally marginalizes third (or fourth and fifth) parties to the extent that they accomplish nothing positive and often effectively work against their own interests (as Granny D points out). It is only by working inside the system and taking it over that we can change it (starting with substantial campaign financing reform with public financing of campaigns and requiring broadcast media to air free commercials for all registered candidates.
james @137: Actually, Jesus was a political revolutionary who denounced oppression. His very crucifixion was a political statement. The evangelicals want to go on and on about the blood and suffering and all that. Of course, it was horrific (torture being the issue of this morning, how can we not but imagine his suffering). But he was one of many crucified on any given day in the Roman Empire.
Fundies would rather focus on that than what he really said about how we should treat each other and about the evils of exploiting the helpless and the oppressed. They’re a bit obsessed with the blood, gore and physical suffering thing which is, in itself, revealing. Guess that explains why some of ‘em are so nuts about Bush, even now.
fahrender @ 177
Genuine outrage? Excuse me??
Where, I ask you, where, do you think the DESPAIR comes from?!
Oh, pardon our DESPAIR at the unraveling of our country. I’m so sorry it’s diluting your energy!
If you find it so draining, just make it a habit to skip the “despair posts.”
fahrender, sometimes I get the feeling you like to pick on the weak. I hope I’m wrong about that, because you have kids and stuff.
Mandrake @ 120
Mandrake,
I was talking to a staffer of my congressman on the phone. He stoutly defended the rep, saying he was “for the soldiers.” I asked him then why did he vote the wrong way on every bill that came before him? The McGovern amendment–oh, he had to vote against that, it didn’t have benchmarks the Iraqis had to meet.
Such nuance, while our people are dying. Disgusting.
I tried to remain calm. But I described for him the melted faces, the lost limbs, the brain injuries and so on that our soldiers are coming home with. We must get OUT. He said,
“Do you have a son or daughter over there?”
“No. Do I have to, in order to be well-represented in Congress?”
The Republicans are so good at coming up with pejorative phrases against Democrats. I wish Democrats/liberals would invent one of our own to be used against the Repubs. Several commenters on a blog recently came up with pieces that I’ve put together (it’s too long, I know — if you’ve got a better phrase, bring it on!):
The Bush Administration harbors people who are vicious, sadistic criminals, utterly without honor.
Mandrake — That’s enough smacking of fahrender. Just as Mary is entitled to her opinion, he is entitled to his as well. Enough beating up each other in the threads — why don’t we concentrate on the real problem — the Bush Administration and their actions in contravention of American principles and the rule of law. You want to vent at something, start there.
DrDick @ 181
Revolutions don’t have to be messy. The best revolutions are ones in which the target never really realizes they’ve become assimilated. I like to think I am part of a revolution, working subversively to take over a political party; it’s messy from the standpoint that there are casualties of another sort (like the former local party chair who has not returned to the fold since we opened a new party office), but I can see the progress within the rank and file membership of our work.
If anything we were grossly naive to think it would take weeks or months to win from within; we were making excellent headway far too quickly in hindsight. But in less than four years we have grown from a rag-tag handful to a small movement locally, have seated our first elected party chairs and local officials, and are now fielding a second batch of candidates from within our ranks. And once we have won a majority, we can undo damaging legislation and institute reforms that have been well overdue; these are now within the realm of reality when they really weren’t in late 2003 and early 2004.
{{{{{{{{{{{Mandrake}}}}}}}}}} Of course, I thought of you and I am glad that you are here posting.
{{{{{{{{{{{Mary}}}}}}}}}}}} Mary, you are right. I would be so lost if I didn’t have my Lake friends for comfort and inspiration when I am tired and discouraged.
I know this is deep into EPU territory, but I had to leave my computer unexpectedly. Rayne, I want you to know that I have challenged the person I mentioned in my earlier post (who comes from a liberal J*wish family, and was a close friend in the past,I might add–she took part in civil rights activism in the 60s). But now, it is like talking to a wall, she hears nothing she doesn’t want to hear or twists it around into something else. I do avoid her except for occasional contact. It was hard to accept that she really doesn’t want to see what is going on and that she really was trying to push her religion. And I agree, avoidance of such people is the best policy.
And Mandrake thanks for your comment. If I read correctly you are a single woman, and I am too. I’m finding my voice as I’m getting older–finally got tired of living in Edith mode. :) And we are in for a long-drawn out struggle. It is so good to see so much outrage here today and ideas and plans for action. I don’t post often, but I’m here every day and will be offering regular, albeit meager financial support within the next few weeks. The Lake feels like a home.
HotFlash @ 189
Hi, Hotflash – I’ve been called out for bad behavior.
My apologies to all I offended.
Rayne @ 187
I was specifically referring to violent revolutions. Subversive movements of the sort you advocate are exactly the approach I was proposing.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 187
Christy, Mandrake has a history with fahrender on this topic and I believe she is actually being vey mild, considering.
Rayne @ 172
fahrender, I appreciate your comments and the wisdom that guides them.
maybe you can surmise i have taken heat of some 157variety at times.
black&white&shades of gray make up a real world, perhaps sadly, but that’s just how it is…
we can have pure feelings, but we still have to deal with imperfect reality in order to try to make things better.
there are worse things than having been tarred (aw heck, once -at last count- called a #%*# troll FGS!?!)for supporting a candidate you think will be/is a good Senator *ducks for cover*
happily, altho i also get mopey on a regular basis, i too suffer the burdon of a solid streak of stubborn that keeps me goin’.
The Lake’s a wonderful place for all of us to meet, eh?! ;->
{{{Peace}}} {{{Justice}}}
DrDick @ 192
Yeah, just like the Neo’s took over the R party. We’ll grab the D’s, they’ll never know what hit ‘em!
Rayne @ 188
Actually, we’re all part of a revolution that fired its first shots in Dallas in 1963 and started solidifying its positions with the coup of 2000.
Meanwhile, what’s the voting system for the next American Idol and will Paula be back?
linda @ 190
I can feel the pain of losing a friend, linda, and I hope over time that either she will come around or that the pain will ease. I do miss some of the people I thought were my friends; I know that some of them were merely ignorant and have been manipulated into their positions. But I have my kids to think of, and they mean everything to me.
I encourage you to become engaged with a local group that is Dem or Green or somehow aligned with your personal values. I have met some truly wonderful new friends that now feel like family, for whom I would walk through fire (and might yet have to in the upcoming elections, so to speak). And there are also some wonderful single men in the group, too. Straight, even. ;-)
Well, I have to go run errands. Good discussion here. Viva la revolucion!
mandrake (#184):
i tried to quote you but the software (or somebody) isn’t letting me. i’m wondering if you have noticed a pattern in my postings. your comment about me implies such.
i don’t regard mary as weak. if you really do regard me a bully maybe you can send me a comment at my website. i won’t go further with this as i have just noticed that Christie has spoken.
james @ 197
What is this American Idol of which you speak, and who the hell is Paula?
HotFlash at 193 — I’m well aware of the history. And I’m also cognizant that everyone has a bad day once in a while, or an old wound or what-have-you in terms of sensitivity on a particular subject — depending on the comment and the thread, as issues arise from time to time. But I am not about to allow a thread to devolve into a flame war over a personality conflict or some disagreement in terms of style or communication. That is not what we do here, nor do I want that to ever be what we do.
Disagreeing over facts, perfectly acceptable. Calling someone out for being an ass? Understandable, once or twice. But when it got to more than that as posts on the same subject it morphed from a constructive criticism to a potential thread dragging flame war problem and I saw a need to nip it in the bud.
I hope that is both clear and understandable. Mary has expressed herself a number of times — very ably and fully — on these issues, and it is much appreciated, even by folks who have disagreed with her characterizations as looseheadprop has done from time to time on the Comey issue. There are ways to disagree that do not get personal. I’d suggest we all try those ways whenever possible.
Rayne @ 201
It’s a new opiate they’re serving the masses…deadens the senses and makes the brain foggy but it doesn’t impair their ability to work productively as much as the old one did :))
For quite a bit of government rules/laws, the standard in “known or should have known.” Rummy, Wolfowitz, Camboner, Miller, Sanchez, etc. are war criminals. We held the Nazis to a higher standard than we require of our own leaders.
Christy 202
keep including everyone in that system, and i’ll be satisfied.
this is indeed a good place, largely due to careful tending.
thanks for your efforts in a difficult job.
Adie @ 195
thanks, Adie. i’m learning stuff about myself here today. i hope i do hear from mandrake and hotflash. in the end we may have to just agree to disagree but i can listen and i can reflect on things people tell me.
fahrender
sometimes things flare157.
some can let it go.
some just feel a need to gouge old wounds anew.
trollref195 was from a’fore last election, egad.
i wish she could let it go.
you’re entitled to your opinions.
i’m entitled to mine.
and so on…
and so on…
please keep commenting freely at the Lake.
maybe i’ll agree with you sometimes,
maybe not, heh. ;->
Rayne @ 180
Ever since the MCA passed last year I have gotten a lot more active, writing, phoning, emailing (including to folks I know who are likely to join me in the writing, phoning, and emailing endeavors). I even made phone calls for MoveOn prior to the election last fall. Actually making phone calls has been huge for me, ’cause I’m a wicked phone-phobe. But, I have not run across Democracy for America before, so thanks for the tip! I’ll go check them out… And in the meantime, best of luck to you!
phred @ 208
Good for you, most excellent if you have transcended a phobia to become engaged; nothing will ever be as bad as that, and everything can only be better. At least that’s been my experience since I become hands-on activist.
Check for local groups via Meetup.com, using your city or zip code; you may find other groups using Meetup besides DFA. Craigslist.com may also have group notices for your locale.
And check DFA’s own community pages at dfalink.com for the groups closest to you.
Going to Meetups was my own bete-noir; I was concerned that I’d be freaked out by folks I met or they’d breach my privacy. Now I’m a Meetup organizer and some of my dearest friends I met through Meetups. ;-)
DrDick @ 117
Exactly!
We have to clean up our own mess. We can’t put it off on Europeans or anybody else. If we don’t we’re guilty as charged.
John McCain and the Republican Congress in a Conspiracy with George W Bush to Obstruct Justice wrote an ex-post facto law, Military Commissions Act, providing Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, and CIA civilians immunity from prosecution for their terrorist acts and war crimes in the kidnapping, torture, and murder of prisoners under their orders.
“Those whom the gods destroy they first make mad” “Let all the monster’s from the mud hatch out!”-they are and they have…..Ho’iho’i i ke ea o Hawai’i Nei, Imua! Freedom to Hawai’i!-Thieves, Sons and Daughters of Thieves!
We have to keep this story alive. The blogs have to fan it. The MSM has already put in way inside. If only bloggers, New Yorker readers and Wolf Blitzer viewers hear the story the administration knows there are no consequences for trashing the rule of law. We need a strategy to keep this on the surface not disappeared by Wednesday which is just what the White House expects. We need a two to three week relentless blister. That’s what the opposition would do and they would sway the debate. We have the facts, We need to keep presenting them.
Has anyone followed up on the angle that President Bush and Dick Cheney commissioned the Abu Ghraib sexual torture photos and videos at the suggestion of White House boy toy Jeff Gannon (White House reporter and male prostitute)? Is it possible that these men were using this material to achieve what their Vi*gr* was failing to do?
Just asking . . .
~~Modnote: edited to clear filters.~~