It’s been a crazy week here at the Lake. I spent the past 24 hours traveling to and from Portland for the Association of Alternative Newsweeklies convention at the invitation of the fabulous Rox Populi, whose late lamented blog went dark not long ago due to her workplace demands. I was on a panel with Arianna Huffington and Matt Taibbi that was ostensibly about covering the 2008 elections but as Arianna pointed out, the blogosphere and the Alternative Weeklies across the country come from the same DNA and are facing many of the same challenges, and that’s where the conversation quickly shifted. I myself got my start at the Bay Guardian Newspaper in San Francisco when I was 18 and the lessons I learned there listening to David Johnston (now of the NYT) chain smoking as he muttered into the phone talking to Harvey Milk, or from Art Goldberg or Paul Krassner or any of the other remarkable characters who populated the Guardian during my time there never left.
Matt Taibbi has an interesting article about the state of modern “liberalism” which we discussed briefly, some of which I agree with and some I don’t but I think it opens up an interesting conversation and I’d love to hear your thoughts. He’s an incredibly gifted writer who comes from a complementary though often quite different perspective (much of it gained from a life spent in an alt weekly world) and there’s a lot in this article to chew upon.
Anyway, these weeklies are facing the challenge of attracting a local online audience and that dovetails nicely into our topic of bringing people together for local Roots networking, and I’d like to announce that the FDL facebook group has almost as many people now (417) as the MyDD facebook group (483), but since Matt and Chris have decided that they are leaving MyDD we no longer take a lot of satisfaction in beating them. So we will just have to beat Think Progress (628) instead.
In the past week I’ve accepted Facebook invitations to attend the Yearly Kos fundraiser tomorrow night, and Matt Browner-Hamlin and Tim Tagaris’s Chris Dodd event, both at Take Back America. Amanda Marcotte invited me to join iLike and that damn “name that tune” game can get addicting.
If you haven’t dipped your toe in the Facebook pool, please join us. And let us know in the comments what applications and virtual watercoolers around the internet you’ve been hanging out at this week.
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zed?
Deuce!
Yes!
Have fun, Jane!
Jane! Love ya!
egregious @ 4
Love ya too, egregious.
Would love to check it out Jane but I don’t think your link is working. Getting some funky error message when I hit on it.
Jane, I was thinking about joining facebook for the purpose of crushing Stoller. Now that shining goal is tarnished. Is there a new reason, a new standard, a new battle cry?
Crush thinkprogress just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Hey Jane — the link to the Taibbi article isn’t working, wonder if you might have pulled it from Google Mail. I’m running off to find it since there’s been so much chatter at our Orange Overlord’s about “moving on”, i.e., the state of progressivism as a movement (and I’m lumping in liberalism).
Okay, found one dd. 14-JUN-07 at Adbusters:
The American Left’s Silly Victim Complex
Oh, the title alone explains a lot why I might have a problem with some of this essay and I haven’t even read it yet…
edit: Okay, I am effing torqued. Taibbi fell prey to the winger’s 30-year assault on liberalism and it’s OUR fault?? Talk me down, my blood pressure’s pegging.
Taibbi link should work now.
Rayne @ 9
Well, there is that.
Oh SF. I been loving the ‘City’ since I was a younger kiddo in 1955.
Hey Jane:
Taibbi’s article is indeed interesting, and yet a little …aggravating as well.
I’m still digesting it, though.
Hey, Jane! How goes it?
I’m heading out for a short bike trip, but I should be back by 6PM ET.
Thanks, Jane. Jebus, I think I need to ship Taibbi a copy of Perlstein’s Before the Storm, among other things.
I see Cycloptichorn commented on the same article elsewhere. Good on you, Cyclo. Admire the brevity.
jane,
i joined facebook… but i had to break the “terms of use” to do it – i didn’t read them when i joined, but it turns out that only “real” names are allowed… and those of us who use “on-line” names risk getting our pages taken down at anytime.
here’s what dmac found out.
do you think that face book is going to be the organizing home for the netroots? i’m hoping not, ‘cuz i’d like to be able to participate…. and i’m not ok with using my real name on-line. :(
I mean, this:
Dude, c’mon. That sounds like it could have been written by Marty Peretz or Peter Beinart!
Jane, I’m trying to join FDL group. The please Join Us link isn’t working.
Sad to see Chris and Matt leave MyDD, but I look forward to seeing their new site.
You’ve been a busy one these days! So happy for you.
selise, re real names, guess I’ll have to go with the WaPo signin, E. Greg Ious. But you all know I’m a girl.
I am not a liberal. I’m a radical. That would perhaps be defined as a liberal-liberal.
selise @ 16
Kobe broke them too. I don’t know if it’s going to be the “organizing home for the netroots,” but the “identity” page is something we’d certainly like to use/adapt/study. Having that kind of anchor when you’re connecting with others locally in the real world I think can have value.
SteveAudio @ 17
Everything Teh Left was saying, and being relentlessly criticized for same, has been borne out by the FACTS in the last four years.
Reality is so fucking shrill and uncivil.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 22
Word (as the kidz say, well, as they used to say…).
ok, i just read the first paragraph of matt taibbi’s essay and i had to come back here for a breath of fresh air before attempting the the rest….
here i go… deep breaths….
Jane, how many friends are you up to now?
How does one undo Facebook? Spam has occured and the only source seems to be this outfit. Am not amused with apparent violation of trust.
Loo Hoo. @ 18
Screwed up all my links today, didn’t I? Should work now.
And Taibbi says this:
While that’s mildly funny, I wonder if he’s ever heard of signing a release. Metaphors are only as good as their message.
Pachacutec @ 25
Well, what’s the number of fdl visitors?
Hello Jane,
I would like to start something which I call Save Social Security and Medicare and kill a program.
The government needs to start prioritizing and the quicker the better. I mean 6 million for a gay bomb, can any nutty idea get funded?
Oh, I almost forgot: Hey Jane!
Hot here, we’re all going in the pool later. Next time you’re here, Kobe should swim too.
Jane I am tired just reading about your week!
I was on Facebook long before the FDL group and am glad to get to know more of you online. We’re also having a real, live & in-person picnic of Central Texas firepups in the next few weeks and looking forward to that as well.
This week I traveled to the common ground common sense website (water cooler).
http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/
Jane,
As long as you’re pondering the future of the media, and the progressive place therein, please take a look at Jeff Chester’s “People’s Controlled Media.” He is Founder and Director of the Center for Digital Democracy. Their website is full of interesting links that I think you’ll find interesting. His talk, which I saw on CSPAN2, was part of a conference on TAMING THE GIANT CORPORATION: A National Conference on Corporate Accountability. We’re promised a webcast of this presentation at http://www.tamethecorporation.org/ eventually.
Chester talked a lot about the future of media– including social networks like Facebook! “This is the system that will shape our consciousness”. The target: kids like Cassie.
Bob in HI
The “real name” issue is why I went there and decided not to join. There was another one involving maps (was it KatherineMA?) that I also passed on. The town I live in is so small that my first name would identify me, and that one asks for zip code. I just don’t feel comfortable making myself available to the crazies.
Pachacutec @ 25
419 friends–as of 5 PM ET
And yes, I saw Kobe’s “profile.”
Arnie @ 26
I hate that shit. Last year I grudgingly signed up for PayPal (since canceled) in order to pay for the YearlyKOS convention. Within a day, the spam/phishing stuff started. If similar stuff happens with Facebook, I’ll kill that as well ASAP.
I’ve joined Facebook for FDL, but i’m not as active on it as i could be. Sadly. There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of Michigan firepups, which saddens me.
As it is, it’s way to humid today to want to do anything. Ugh, horrid outside. I’m hiding in the air conditioning because the pollen set off my asthma earlier this week. I kinda want to keep it under control for a bit longer.
I think 419 is the Firedoglake Group number. Friends is different.
As to facebook I use Oklahoma kiddo as my real name.
Pachacutec @ 25
two fifty or so?
I see Matt Cooper is FDL friend in Facebook.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 40
I use Betsy and then my initials in place of my last name. Very short last name.
Good afternoon FDL’ers!
As promised some time ago:
The picture of my personalized Mississippi IMPEACH license plate.
http://thetimtimes.com/?p=63
Enjoy.
Pach @ 39:
You’re right. My bad.
Biodun @ 42
Tim Fuller @ 44
Very cool. I have an IMPEACH bumper sticker.
aliasofwestgate @ 38
Does an ex-Michigan firepup count? I did my graduate work at UMich (Go Blue!), and taught at Wayne State for two years. I have a brother who lives in Romeo, so I visit there around New Year’s every year.
And don’t forget– Marcy’s a Michigander, too!
Bob in HI
Taibbi doesn’t seem to understand the reasons why liberalism appears to be wealthy and educated.
1) We are the progeny of the working class who worked damned hard to put us through school – but we still share their values of self-sacrifice and helping others; we’re not Taibbi’s father’s Democrats.
2) Those of us with the resources to be active are here; many of us cannot be here because they are too f*cking busy working at their crappy second job trying to keep their heads above water. Republicans don’t look like working stiffs, either, if you look at their all-white, all-male, all-wealthy, all Judeo-Christian line up running for POTUS; imagine any of them really worrying about the oppression of any other human being when their pocketbook is not also oppressed.
3) We support the arts, including language arts and philosophy; we’re not all business school majors calculating for the bottom line. Hence our ability to see things as they really are, not black-and-white profitable-not-profitable, but complex and changing shades of grey. You know, the post-modern versus modern (and if you don’t understand the difference, you might not be a liberal).
4) Those same parents that raised us to have values of self-sacrifice also taught us to have good manners and not be f*cking belligerent c*nts like that white trash Coulter or bellicose ignoramuses like Savage and his truly moronic peeps, or criminally hypocritical “Oxy-moron” Limbaugh. Maybe our manners were too good for too long since we bit our tongues in half trying to say nothing if it wasn’t nice. (I, for one, am truly well and over that sh*t.)
For starters.
HI Jane!
HI pups!
I never would have signed up, without your urging, but it’s been fun trying to figure it all out.
Although, not everyone’s moniker is obvious.
Ah, I think I’ve peaked at a little under 200.
Heh.
I need to explore more groups, just for my learning, and I don’t quite have the causes thing figured out.
BTW, OT: I took Eli to lunch today. It was great to hang out with him.
Bobby G @ 36
Immediately after I registered I started getting “Howdy” e-mails, first with a computer generated *message*, thereafter, a number all containing an attachment “xxxxx.hk”. They all used the name used on the rgistration. It may be just my entry, I want my information completely deleted from this scheme.
TexB @ 47
I not only have one on my car, but I’ve got a pile sitting around here collecting dust. If anyone wants one, gimme a holler over on Facebook, and for a buck and a self-stamped envelop to cover costs, I’ll send you two!
Bob in HI
True Bob,
Marcy’s all the way on the east side of the state though. As she’s Ann Arbor, and i’m in Grand Rapids. (also poor a a churchmouse at the moment)
I grew up in Port Huron, wandered over to GR for Grand Valley, ended up dropping that and doing somethinge else instead. I now have a skill set–just not the one intended to have. *laugh* The one meetup there was of mich liberals? I was the only firepup of the lot. *grins* i like the snark here better than the orangerie.
aliasofwestgate @ 38
alias!! aren’t SharonRB, Liberal Lucy, Laura Packard, Nirmal and I enough for your insatiable Michigan Facebook craving?? Heh.
Tim Fuller @ 43
Tim, your plate is great, but you might not want to flash it around the net too much. When motor vehicle departments realize that someone has slipped a plate like yours by them, the can and do recall them. I’ve read about other states recalling plates that were not as explicit as yours.
I looked for my high school classmates on facebook and all I found were the kids of the people I went to high school with, not a one over 22! *g*
Argh. Matt Taibbi’s piece just ticked me off. He seems to have absorbed the wrong-wingers’s characterization of “liberals” as rich, white, and educated “elitists”.
That’s just not the case. Every liberal I know personally is a working man or woman. Most are white, none are rich and a few of them have college degrees. To suggest that liberals don’t know what a working person’s life is like is just bogus.
There were some other points I disagreed with too, but I’m too steamed up to write about them now.
Yeah, if “liberal” is a bad word, how about substituting “patriot”?
Tim Fuller @ 43
Enjoyed and then some. Best license plate EVER!
Pachacutec @ 52
Eli! I’m jealous.
Rayne @ 57
I hadn’t even realized they were ON facebook. *laughs* There was a meetup last night i couldn’t make, since i was working while it was on.
Arnie @ 53
Gee, you must be “special”! I haven’t got any messages like that. Well, besides, I have about 4 different spam filters, but I still have to scan the junk bins to make sure one of my friends doesn’t wind up in there by accident, and I don’t remember seeing that one. But now I’ll look for them, just out of curiosity.
Bob in HI
Breaking-
Nifong disbarred.
Good riddance, you puke.
Matt Taiibi’s column was highlighted in the Chronicle of Higher Education, with all the most damning quotes and denunciations highlighted in large boxes. It will be widely quoted with glee by the right wing.
Does that mean he shouldn’t have published it? Well, it means he should be clear on who will use it and how that will affect the desperate struggle over the future of America that unrolls in 2008.
Pachacutec @ 52
Eli is *never* off topic here.
OT again: I’m a bachelor tonight. The other half flew to L. A. this morning. I don’t quite know what to do with myself on a Saturday night, so I think I decided to make empanadas.
Wild and crazy guy.
BobbyG @ 64
Thanks for that!
BobbyG @ 64
It’s live on CNN currently…
twolf1 @ 69
A real spanking!
Pachacutec @ 67
You are a madman.
SusanD @ 59
That’s been my experience, too. Lots of blue collar liberals in San Francisco, and BushCo is making more every day. I’ve always thought that the terms liberal and progressive were pretty much interchangeable. Is that a common perception? What is Tiabbi’s problem? His article is very offensive to me!
Pach — chicken or pork empanadas?? Mmm-mmm…inquiring minds want to know.
Chicken thawing here, but I could change if persuaded.
alias — hey, we weren’t all of us at that West Michigan event, you know. You didn’t miss US. ;-)
BobbyG @ 64
I saw this coming the day he took the case to the media ; )
Beef/pork combo.
SeamusD @ 57
In MS, they probably think he’s still a leftover from the Clinton years when it was OK.
So is this the inauguration of the “Saturday News Dump?”
OK, Matt Taibbi, FUCK you for that piece of sh*t you wrote.
I am a life-long PROUD liberal. I have a college degree but currently no job, not real rich here. I support unions and privacy. Even when I worked for the war machine I was a proud liberal. Former McGovern delegate and damn proud of it. George was correct then and he is still more correct than most of the pols and talking heads inside the beltway. I refuse to give Sean Insanity or the Coultergeist or Bill Orally the satisfaction of making me change how I describe myself. If they don’t like it, they can ALL go p*ss up a rope.
Oh, and Jane? We’re going to be having a get together of South-Central TX pups here in a few weeks. Out by the river surronded by a bunch of Republicans so we’ll be sure to do what we can to p*ss them off as well. ;})
Rayne @ 74
LOL :P I’ve barely been here this last week either. Yearly inventory pretty much put the kibosh on ‘thinking? what thinking?’. I’m detoxing this weekend from having to count and recount so many bloody stupid pills three times over.
SeamusD @ 72
I can’t say that; if I took a poll at the county party meeting on Thursday, more than a third were college-educated, more than a third were union or former union, nearly a third were small business owners. There were two former judges, a couple of attorneys, a dean and several educators — and there were as many former automotive industry line workers and trades folks. What has changed in the last 6 years is the age of the group.
Hell, I’ll say it was a generational shift that began with 2000 elections; the folks who are most active are the younger, educated folks who are also internet-enabled. But they run the gamut of gender, sexuality, race, economic background; because of the loss of manufacturing in this state they have no f*cking choice but to be better educated than their parents if they will put food on the table.
Damnitall, I’m getting angry again. Taibbi bit it, hook line and sinker, and I think he’s also got a serious problem with coming to terms with his own age. He’s more or less saying that liberals are all young pajama-wearing, lazy cheetoh-eating whiny kids — and that is simply not the case unless one’s vision is horribly screwed.
BobbyG @ 37
I don’t have a PayPal account, and I get phishing emails purporting to be from them nearly every week. (I got two in one day claiming to be from Amazon, also.)
It isn’t PayPal, it’s the opportunists sending out stuff claiming to be from them. I don’t think PayPal leaks.
If I could make a facebook suggestion, perhaps the fdl m.o.d.e.r.a.to.r.s. could use the image Joh Padgett posted on the fdl community page, the fdl campfire, to replace the ” ? “
dakine01 @ 78
dakine that’s great!
Did I ever mention that when I got my tattoo I almost got a dakine? I wanted a small one (cover appendix scar) and couldn’t get detail I wanted for the size. Love dakines.
P J Evans @ 82
Yeah, I know, but I’d never gotten one from “PayPal” prior to registering. I know that phishing goes on at random. I get them all the time from “banks” with whom I’ve never done business.
Still, that coincidence unnerved me.
Jane, you are awesome. I am a huge fan. I respect and admire you for your strength, courage and leadership. Thanks for everything and thanks for not being like Matt Tabs.
fdl reader @ 78
Too many simultaneous scandals. We had to open the second day. Sorry for the inconvenience.
BobbyG @ 85
I started getting C*t* spam. Unnerving is the word.
Beef/pork combo. Sounds yummy Pach, haven’t had one in forever. But I’m pretty partial to straight pork, must be the Asian/Hawaiian in me.
Empanadas are the Hispanic version of the pot sticker, hence my preference for pork. Every culture has one of those hand-pie/dumpling things, was just talking about that yesterday. My ex’s paternal grandparents were Germans from Soviet Georgia, fixed meat pies called “bierok” or “bieroque”; his maternal grandparents were Polish and had big parties making and serving “pierogi” (oh, heaven, pork and cheese). And then the pot stickers. What would be wonderful is an all FireDog party serving hand-pies/dumplings and alcoholic beverages of our ethnic backgrounds.
Rayne,
Better educated or else more flexible in many ways. I knew i didn’t have the temperment to work in manufacturing, so i avoided it pointedly. I probably have about as much education as my parents by now. I’m just better at using modern tech on my own–and i’m willing to learn new skills on the drop of a hat. Hence the reason i fell into the job as a pharmacy technician and started to love the sheer challenge of it.
I still want my original pursuit, which is a music recording tech degree, but it’s not something i can live without at the moment.
But yes, that jerk has no sense. My dad’s a dyed in the wool union blue collar liberal. My mom’s of the canuck variety but she’s no ‘kid’ either. I can just imagine my mother laying into him verbally about that idiocy. Canadian snark on high. *giggles*
Hi Jane, hope they’re treating you well at the Watergate. I have fond memories of that place (other than the landmark it became during the takedown of Nixon) — my grandmother lived in Foggy Bottom in the 70’s, and when I visited her on weekends she and I would dress up and walk across the street to visit the shops and restaurants, and just generally act as if we belonged there ;-)
HELLOOOOO???? (Waves)
i gotta question about thie facebook thing.
if, when/if i register for facebook, and (i assume) “join” a group (e.g., fdl), are then my connections with other individuals or communities accessible through the nexus of my (supposedly unique, individually named facebook page?
and another thing, if it hasn’t been mentioned–and no, it’s too hot here today for tinfoil haberdashery–if i were a national security bureaucracy with a hunger for data and a need to inspire dread, and i wanted to collect a reservoir of faces of the usual suspects, i can think of few more elegant ways of doing it than getting the potential malcontents to voluntarily submit them in the name of a ‘community.’
prob’ly that’s jus’ me, innit?
egregious @87: no inconvenience, I’ll just add it to my schedule …
LOL!
Jane Hamsher @ 84
OK, now you have me wondering if we’re talking the same dakines here? Although we almost have to be. I came to the term while a GI in Hawaii where it is the all purpose descriptor for whatever you forget the name of. But we adapted it as the descriptor for our fave world’s finest substance which was then quite readily available.
hi jane!
only halfway through reading matt’s piece, interesting, and haven’t caiught up on comments yet–but didn’t wnat to get epu’d, his piece brought up what i have always thought about the difference and definition of parties.
wanted to mention that i always thought being a democrat or republican had to do with basically what are economics issues (and trade and interpretation of the constitution) views and then you split the definition further by being liberal, moderate or conservative when it comes to social issues.
friends and i were just discussing this a while back, how msm calls all democrats liberals! and republicans conservatives….HUH? we were discussing how wrong this is by definition even on the surface, doesn’t even make sense…….my parents and relatives are all fdr democrats, liberal in abortion rights, gay rights but conservative in others.
i think someone tried to lump all the words into one definition. and got away with it.
dem or repub and forgot about the nuanced meanings
liberal, moderate, conservative and then add democrat or republican
Taibbi is (apparently) one of those people Bob Somerby keeps writing about at the Daily Howler.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/
He’s not talking about actual working class people who are liberal, but he doesn’t seem to realize that. Presumptuous much?
Time to get a clue. “Liberals” who trot around their opinions on teevee and in the papers aren’t actually liberals. They’re just rich people (generally known as “Conservatives”) pretending to be liberals for “Balance”. And yes, real liberals are a little pissed off. Go figure.
wgg: rogue scholar @ 91
Facebook lets you restrict who can see your “profile”. So you have a number of options:
1. For maximum security, don’t put very much in your profile, and use the maximum restriction level on who can see it.
2. For minimum security, put your life story into the profile, and let everyone see it.
Of course, there are plenty of options in between.
Bob in HI
I’ve been skirting this whole face book thing, tussling with putting my personal info out there. guess I’ll follow egregious’ lead and sign up as Pun Aise.
Many fond Sunday brunches at the Watergate Hotel with friends and family all through the Eighties. Tell Bob and Liddy Dole hello if you run into them — she’s the scary one in the Watergate health club.
wgg: rogue scholar @ 93
People can see your name, but not your profile, if you set it up that way.
The young people in my family are all on facebook, and none will allow “adults” to see their profile because of the profanity they write on each other’s walls. ;) Well the oldest may have different reasons.
aliasofwestgate @ 89
You just made my case for me. You are the child of an earlier generation of liberal who has more choices but no less a sense of obligation. Wonder what your mother would say about responsibility to others in that so-familiar Canadian accent.
What Taibbi did get right was that we don’t have a legend – but he’s still not right in that we still have a legend of our own, but we’ve allowed it to be taken from us by bastards who either badmouth us for our legend, or folks like Taibbi who’ve been unwittingly co-opted to the benefit of the opposition.
Our legend is the same as that of our founding fathers, who conjured up the notion of a nation ruled by laws and not men, under a government of, by and for the people. We do have legends, like FDR, JFK, RFK, MLK, Wellstone — but we are their children and grandchildren, inheriting the family “business” and we have to make it our own.
And we have to learn to forcefully undue the damage of the last 30-plus years that the wingers have wrought through pointed, deliberate corporate manipulations — because Taibbi’s words delineate the damage that failing to check the wingers’ toxic machinations.
I don’t want to rush anything but I’m now obligated to note new thread
BobbyG @ 64
When are they getting around to disbarring Bradley Schlozman?
That was cool looking though the FDL facebook pages. What do you click to join?
ok, getting past the idiotic stuff that just pisses me off.
hi think taibbi’s got some important points:
matt: organizational capacity is almost nil
me: sadly, probably true. effective liberal organizing is really hard. i have some ideas about why that is… but what to do about it is beyond me.
i strongly agree with matt’s discussion of trade and economic issues. david sirota (and now matt stoller) on trade, and tula here on labor rights are stand outs in the netroots… and have helped give me hope.
matt’s ideas about people with puppets are just stupid. i’d like to remind him that it was the people with puppets working with labor, environmentalists, anarchists – basically the DFHs – who shut down the WTO in seattle in 1999 in an effort to try to educate the rest of us about what our trade policies were doing to american workers and the rest of the world. these are the same people who’ve gone on to organize local and world-wide social forums.
i think part of the problem is that on trade and economic issues… in the nineties it was nader and the DFHs who were right. a lot of liberals still haven’t forgiven them for it.
me? this liberal is just trying to make amends.
… which reminds me…. have you all seen the LOTR spoof – the Ring of Free Trade? it’s relevant to a discussion of matt’s article for what it says about what people on the left think of “liberals”. and it’s wickedly funny.
dakine01 @ 94
Na, dakines are Tibetan figures, fierce females who wear a necklace of skulls and carry a scythe with which they lead individuals to enlightment by cutting off delusion.
But I’m sure the other kind are powerful, too *g*
I couldn’t read Taibbi’s article and I don’t think I will bother reading him again, now. He must really hate everyone.
This is nonsense as far as I can tell: only a nanomicron removed from right-wing lies. Oh, I dunno, maybe it’s worse.
You all have much stronger brain cells than mine. I salute you.
Jane Hamsher @ 106
Yep, finest kind is one of the terms we used.
All my smoking life I had occasionally gotten just a faint whiff of sweetness. Then I got to the isles and the first smoke filled me with a sweetness that was almost undescribable. At the time, it was the most widely used income supplement for most everybody.
dmac @ 94
Of course its all wrong. The MSM just bought the Republican “message” that Democrats are Liberal and Liberals tax and spend. They just repeat it every day for 10 years and then it becomes the Conventional Wisdom. I’ve been waiting for someone to attack that bit of nonsense. But too often, Democrats just whine and wring their hands.
Like,
“If you were one mortgage payment away from bankruptcy, and all of a sudden, you lost your job, who would you look for, to get a hand up? A liberal, or a conservative?”
“If you are concerned about what global warming is doing to our planet and our environment, who would you want to work with to solve this problem, a liberal or a conservative?”
“If your daughter was raped by a stranger, and she was too scared to say anything about it to anyone, but is now visibly pregnant, and your family is trying to figure out what to do, would you rather talk with a liberal or a conservative?”
Well, you get the idea. And these kinds of things needed to be worded very carefully, because there are land mines everywhere.
Bob in HI
punaise @ 98
OK, I dipped my toe and registered face book. what’s next?
Bush is super wealthy
Cheney is super wealthy
So, I guess they’re really liberals.
Show me all those “poor” Repubs – the only time that was really the case, was right after 9/11 when people wanted to get behind the president or during Nixon or Reagan, when they successfully portrayed the antiwar left as pussies and drug addicts. An awful lot of “liberals” have died for this country.
For every waitress who loves Bush, I’ll show you at least one (probably 2) who does not like him.
What a crock.
I’m liberal, because I believe in being free, and I worry about the have-nots in this country, as opposed to our leadership who believes in his haves and have more base. Go stick it Taibbi.
dakine says
OK, now you have me wondering if we’re talking the same dakines here? Although we almost have to be. I came to the term while a GI in Hawaii where it is the all purpose descriptor for whatever you forget the name of. But we adapted it as the descriptor for our fave world’s finest substance which was then quite readily available.
jane says
Na, dakines are Tibetan figures, fierce females who wear a necklace of skulls and carry a scythe with which they lead individuals to enlightment by cutting off delusion.
But I’m sure the other kind are powerful, too *g*
i say
fitting, dakine’s use summons things. janes acts…..now that’s one powerful word.
punaise @ 110
Start adding friends, groups, causes, etc. You can click on my handle here for a start.
selise @ 105
Bowling Alone. There’s your answer, we’re bowling alone. Because we are not the kind of society that existed in the 1950’s-1960’s, where more than half of people worked in manufacturing and went to lodges or VFW halls or bowling leagues together, we don’t have the political capital to organize.
But those so-called conservatives were evil f*ckers who also understood that we held the privacy of one’s religious practice sacred, and that we believed implicitly in the Constitutional separation of church and state — they used the churches to organize.
Bottom line, this is an infrastructure problem. We need to develop new and better organizing mechanisms that adapt to the lives we live in a country that no longer works in manufacturing (didn’t Chris Hedges say that mfg. jobs dropped from 48% to 9% in less than 20 years?), and are increasingly wired and on the move.
But these things that make us different from our parents’ Dem Party also make us better in other ways. My parents still think writing to an elected official is something unusual; I think nothing of whipping off several emails or faxes in a day to mine, or calling them if I can’t get through. Look at Meetup and Drinking Liberally and how they’ve provided the internet-mediated physical infrastructure we haven’t had for the last 20 years.
Taibbi needs to actually attend a damn Meetup, though. What an ass. The ones I attend are all business; we save the idle chatter for afterwords. I seriously doubt he’s been to a meeting if he thinks they are all loosey-goosey idle and aimless chit-chat.
meants to say, dakine’s summons things to avoid having delusion, jane’s acts to get rid of delusion! that’s why it’s a powerful word……
Punaise, what name did you use? join the group for firedoglake and you’ll see many of the names your recognize.
Da Kine dakines.
The finest fierce and scythe-armed female figures.
Oh, I do so want one of those tatoos!!
IRT spam a few people commented about.
gmail does a great job of sweeping up the spam.
You could setup a gmail acct specifically for joining online apps.
You can, iirc, just sign up for an account at gmail or I have a ton of gmail invites if anyone wants one.
LoudounLib @ 113
thanks, I’ll check it out
TexB @ 116
you’ll recognize me as Pun Aise in the FDL group….until the FB management catches on and kicks me off!
Jane — meant to mention that NPR mentioned an important anniversary this weekend.
Some sloppy plumbers broke into the DNC’s offices at Watergate 35 years ago.
I think it’s a portent. ;-)
Matt Taibbi-Stealth Neo-Con
No. Matt Taibbi might very well be a horse’s ass, but he is not a neocon.
Rayne @ 114
i think that’s one half of it.
the other half is figuring out how to organize democratically. we’ve been aculturized (sp?) to the corporate structure…. but that doesn’t work long term in volunteer organizations without becoming anti-democratic. people get used to having a position with influence and find they like it and then act without thinking to maintain it.
anyway, that’s the short version of my thinking today…
i am soooo peeved, i got kicked off of facebook because i didn’t use my real name………it printed my birthdate, so i emailed them for help to get that personal info offa there, and they kicked me off..violates their terms agreement….didn’t even occur to me that that would happen or i wouldn’t have emailed them, i would have asked one of you……..so now, i have to use my real name if i want to join…….
i enjoyed seeing all of you!
In a hurry this afternoon as I’ve got a bit of blogging to do yet.
Let me just say, for the record, Mr Taibbibi is soooooooo full of shit that his eyes must be brown.
Is he after Joke Line’s job?
Honestly, a disgusting stew of ReThug memes, ReichWing lies, and Dobbsian Nativist excrement.
Not worth the time it took to skim it.
just to get back to how non-liberals see liberals (and i do think there is some use in looking at this).
i remember reading/hearing chris hedges talk about learing to hate liberals…. but i’m still looking for the link… will post it here if i find it, ‘cuz i think it’s related to matt’s essay.
dmac @ 124
i just put in a fake birthday. to go with my fake name.
selise @ 127
I used my real birthday but made myself younger.
TexB, you are too funny ;-) I should have done the same…
dmac, do whatever you gotta do and join us on FB. Would love to see you there :-)
suppertime here, LL out…see you all later…
selise and texb
hilarious!
cracked me up……
i’m too honest…….i am learning, though.
the picture I posted on FB is a stunning likeness of me…as a thumbtack.
Taibbi is a moron…blah..libs..blah..babyboomers..blah.
This is pure NEO-CON TALKING POINTS FROM THE ROVE ECHO CHAMBER!
———————————
The biggest problem with modern American liberalism may be the word itself. There’s just something about the word, liberal, something about the way it sounds – it just hits the ear wrong.
At a time when someone should be organizing forcefully against the war in Iraq and engaging middle America on the alarming issue of big-business occupation of the Washington power process, the American left has turned into a skittish, hysterical old lady, one who defiantly insists on living in the past, is easily mesmerized by half-baked pseudo-intellectual nonsense, and quick to run from anything like real conflict or responsibility.
The sad truth is that if the FBI really is following anyone on the American left, it is engaging in a huge waste of time and personnel. No matter what it claims for a self-image, in reality it’s the saddest collection of cowering, ineffectual ninnies ever assembled under one banner on God’s green earth.
In a few years it will be half a century since the 1960s began. The Baby-Boomer generation that shaped modern liberalism will soon be moving on to the nursing home, many of its battles – for civil, gay, immigrant and women’s rights, for workplace protections, and against the Vietnam war and Richard Nixon – already won. They did a lot of good things, but their fight doesn’t always make sense anymore.
yeah, loudin lib, saw you!
i posted a comment on the wall, one of the first days, i was so excited about it, don’t know if it’s still there, about how nice it was to see faces! but was bummed when most of them didn’t have their nicknames, so didn’t know who was who……knew a few from sos ma’s site, so knew a few……..
i haven’t figured out how to do it yet, they’ll be checking it when i sign up again…….so it’s gotta be half-legitimate…..only problem is, i don’t WANT to use my real name, i don’t WANT people to contact me after 30 years from high school, or people i used to work with…i like my quiet life…if they want me, they can call my parents’ house to find me. which a few have………..
maybe i’ll just use smith or jones. or hamsher…….ha………funny.
selise @ 123
I haven’t run into that experience yet, selise. If anything, the several teams with which I work are generally loaded with self-empowered individuals who could give a rat’s butt about influence. Maybe it has a lot to do with the charter of the organizations in question; the group in which I am most active has a stated goal of identifying, grooming, getting progressives elected to office and supporting them once they are; if somebody wanted influence, there’s only two ways to do it in this group. Be vitally important to the team or the candidates/incumbents, or become a candidate/incumbent.
What I have seen cause problems with some groups is a desperate addiction to Roberts’ Rules of Order. We only use them when we need to develop consensus, otherwise they get in the way. If a group focuses intently on the rules, they don’t get a thing done, and I’ve seen truly excellent folks leave teams because of this problem.
Maybe some of this is a manifestation of a generational change; Roberts is far more popular with the older blue collar folks than with the corporate-trained younger white collar folks. But if there’s an understanding up front about the organization’s essential objectives, I think this can be mediated.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 20
In the spirit of the Bolsheviks, it would be defined as anti-liberal.
dmac @ 135
Grab your first name and use a name from your family tree. Say maybe your great-grandma’s maiden name or somethin’
dmac … you aren’t Jane’s long-lost brother, are you????
punaise-
although witty, a thumbtack is a ‘tacky’ out from having to post your picture…….there, my first pun on fdl.
i went to the trouble to scan a REAL picture, from last christmas, most recent on i had…….even though i hate the extra few pounds, i wanted it to be real…….
you could post an obviously out-dated photo, that would be fun.
no fdl reader……..was a joke
and i would be a sister…
would you be a brother or a sister?
dmac @ 141
Facebook has offered a nice opportunity to get to know people’s gender. A few surprises!
Rayne @136:
I have some expertise in this area …
What matters for a group is that the rules of engagement are agreed upon, that the group’s norms are followed. Doesn’t much matter what those rules/norms are, altho’ some rules are *better* than others. A group can agree to NOT use Robert’s at all … and make up their “own” rules as they go along. The result is greater than the process or the rules: respect and group-sense are generated.
Cheers!
sorry dmac: didn’t mean to offend! I’m not always sure about myself …
Rayne @ 136 –
thanks, rayne, for the reply.
i’m not talking about smallish or short term (2 years or less) teams… i guess i mean larger organizations / institutions that one would like to see be long-lived.
i’ve seen very good organizing for short term projects – even with hundreds of people involved.
but long term i think it’s harder…. and i can’t think of one progressive/liberal institution that is really organized democratically…
frank at 134
am reposting my 95 for you yes, the word liberal has been transfigured…….and smooshed into something that has no definition anymore, time for that to go……..define as dem or repub, and whether liberal, moderate, or conservative, that is what my family and friends and i do.
hi jane!
only halfway through reading matt’s piece, interesting, and haven’t caiught up on comments yet–but didn’t wnat to get epu’d, his piece brought up what i have always thought about the difference and definition of parties.
wanted to mention that i always thought being a democrat or republican had to do with basically what are economics issues (and trade and interpretation of the constitution) views and then you split the definition further by being liberal, moderate or conservative when it comes to social issues.
friends and i were just discussing this a while back, how msm calls all democrats liberals! and republicans conservatives….HUH? we were discussing how wrong this is by definition even on the surface, doesn’t even make sense…….my parents and relatives are all fdr democrats, liberal in abortion rights, gay rights but conservative in others.
i think someone tried to lump all the words into one definition. and got away with it.
dem or repub and forgot about the nuanced meanings
liberal, moderate, conservative and then add democrat or republican
fdl reader, you don’t offend me.
re – chris hedges on hating liberals.
here’s the link, it starts at 15 minutes in…. only last a minute. hard to hear, but it’s something i think is important to consider.
This is a good discussion. Thanks Jane Hamsher-compare your outstanding style to Taibbi’s. Half of his article is worthless, such as asking other liberals what liberal means. But the insults misrepresentations and lies in his article are worth a FLAME.
All these stealth neo-cons, Joe Klein, Joe Scarborough, Tim Russert, Chris Matthews still support the Iraq War. Six years ago, they slandered those against the war for being against the war. Now they slander the Democrats in Congress for not ending the war. It is the Republicans that keep the genocide going. It is most of the stealth neo-con corporate journalists who keep the war going by “framing” and catapulting the propaganda.
Taibbi, STOP DISRESPECTING US!
Matt is lazy.
Does Matt live in the NY/DC cone of circlejerkdom where all the media pundits and politicians stand around looking at one another with their bedroom eyes and all their pretension and snobbery and down at the rest of us? I’m guessing he does.
Somehow he associates everyone who consider themselves “liberal” with the mendacious blowholes he plays golf with, and the snooty French restaurants he eats at. Is the “left” and “liberals” he speaks of, these people?
Is that what he means?
Maybe he’s just too lazy to turn around and define the word like this
But, no, he seems to associate the word with his lazy spoon-fed interpretation of the word given to him by the elites he sees every day.
Does Matt question the “conservatives” who are aligned with W?
Why doesn’t Matt and his “expert” friends ask the “conservatives” how conservative that TRILLION dollar deficit is going? How not conservative, that subversion of the Constitution and civil rights is going? How not conservative, the occupation of two countries halfway across the world is going? How not conservative, our trade deficit is going? How not conservative, it is to have so much foreign ownership of American assets are?
Has Matt ever spent any time, say in Crawford, at W’s “ranch”? And maybe if he has, he and his suckass friends could take one step off the “ranch” and actually interview W’s neighbors, they might find that W and they have very little in common. Matt might find that while his neighbors actually have cattle and/or horses, W has none. Matt might find that W’s neighbors have crops, W has none. Matt might find that W’s neighbors don’t have hay bales for props in their front yard for the stiffs in the Prada suits and their teevee setup like W does.
Matt might find that the two-faced deceitful, deceptive pols, Republican and Democrat he goes to the all the hoity-toity dinner parties with, aren’t representative of those of us he might call — the great unwashed.
Matt might see that his sources are all as phony as a three dollar bill.
Matt talks of “lefty” meetings with derision and contempt with his nose up in the air — while reading this I hear Thurston Howell the Third’s voice playing in my head. Matt speaks of someone standing up and talking about crazy things and nobody telling that person to shut up — sorry to disappoint you Matt but this is America — google the 1st Amendment.
Just so you know, Matt, I am a liberal.
Just so you know even more Matt
I voted for Ronald Reagan; I also voted for Bush the 1st; I’m a member of Gun Owners of America; I’ve never had long hair; I’ve never used drugs; I’ve worked on a ranch; I’ve worked on a farm; I used to hunt, I own three guns, a 223, a 12 gauge over/under shotgun and a 30-06 and can outshoot most people; I do fish; I’ve worked in warehouses; driven trucks; tractors; I’ve worked in factories; I played football, basketball and wrestling in school; I drink beer, not wine; I’ve also been a cook at a 5 star restaurant; I’ve tended bar; I can ride a horse better than 99% of the population; I have friends and relatives who have ridden in rodeos, (not rodayohs); I can butcher a steer, a pig, a chicken or a deer; I can find my way around a computer, and
I’m a liberal, Matt, in this sense
Be careful whom you use pejoratives on Matt — they just might be a “lefty.”
Matt do not put me in the same column as those pontificating blowhards you identify with, thank you.
Please leave the self-congratulatory cone of circlejerkdom Matt, you just might learn something
[the first two quotes are from JFK’s acceptance of the presidential nomination of the liberal party in NYC 1960 and the last quote is from Prof. Wm. M. McGovern in his book From Luther to Hitler in 1941]
thanks dmac!
Maybe this Taibbi et. al. liberal, conservative, neo-con label-fest is MORE about name-calling and bullying than about ideology and meaning??
fdl reader @ 143
Makes perfect sense; as a former project manager, getting buy-in from customers was one of, if not THE most important factor to project success. And you’ve just described that; if the group buys-in and commits to a process, they will be more effective.
I’ll be sure to keep that in mind, thanks!!
Liberals have never stopped fighting for the working person. A group of centerists took over the Democratic party in the 80s, but the rest of us continued to vote to tax ourselves for the sake of the disadvantaged in our society and continued to be horrified by such things as “welfare reform” and the bankruptcy bill.
Furthermore, the movements of the 60s are as relevant today as they were then, especially given the current assault on them by authoritarian theocrats. Progress has been made, but those issues definitely are not “won” as Tabbai claims.
I believe the reason that liberals seem more fragmented and mealy mouthed than the Stepford conservatives is that we think more about issues and are not satified by slogans. We perceive the multiplicity of options and arguments related to each issue. We analyze. Therefore, we are not 100% sure of our opinions, nor do we agree with each other on matters of cause and effect and remedies for injustice. We consider many viewpoints. These shades of opinion come across as indecisiveness and “not standing for anything.”
HAHA! Isn’t that the truth! And…I’m a pretty hip dude, but 59% is totally unacceptable. I had an itchy trigger finger. That’s my excuse. HA!
selise — agh, I want to respond, but the chicken just came off the grill and everybody’s seated…will stop back in after dinner. Thanks!
dakine at 138 says:
Grab your first name and use a name from your family tree. Say maybe your great-grandma’s maiden name or somethin’
===========
thanks! most excellent idea!!!!!!!!! then it wouldn’t be lying really……
just catching up on threads, busy day have been popping in and out, but didn’t read whole thread yet……
thanks, mustache pete.
Rayne @ 155
ok. catch ya later… here on in another thread…
I dunno, irt liberal branding, gop media has done it’s best to divide, conquer and stain the name. Progressive works just fine me. OTOH so does Water. I don’t care what they/us calls us so long as it ain’t late to the ballot.
Liberals have never stopped fighting for the working person. A group of centerists took over the Democratic party in the 80s, but the rest of us continued to vote to tax ourselves for the sake of the disadvantaged in our society and continued to be horrified by such things as “welfare reform” and the bankruptcy bill.
Furthermore, the movements of the 60s are as relevant today as they were then, especially given the current assault on them by authoritarian theocrats. Progress has been made, but those issues definitely are not “won” as Tabbai claims.
katherine at 153
I believe the reason that liberals seem more fragmented and mealy mouthed than the Stepford conservatives is that we think more about issues and are not satified by slogans. We perceive the multiplicity of options and arguments related to each issue. We analyze. Therefore, we are not 100% sure of our opinions, nor do we agree with each other on matters of cause and effect and remedies for injustice. We consider many viewpoints. These shades of opinion come across as indecisiveness and “not standing for anything.”
==============
that’s where my post from 95 comesin………democrats don’t rule the world with the word liberal…….i know many fine republicans who are LIBERAL REPUBLICANS, and call themselves that, who believe in social issues in line with democrats……but economic issues we differ……..
REPUBLICANS started using the word ‘liberal’ to describe us…….and we took it bait and sinker and are now choking on the hook……
we are either democrat or republican/economics
then comes liberal, moderate or conservative/social issues.
we are either then, liberal democrat or republican, moderate democrat or republican or conservative democrat or republican…..
who did learn this from ?
my historian uncle who used to write letters to the editor, describing himself as an fdr democrat……..
it’s the republicans that made use of the incendiary term/incantation liberal, not the liberals who use it in the true tense of the word.
we need to define as party/economics and leanings/social issues.
tw3k says quoting the one and only bruce lee
Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend. –Bruce Lee
==============
so fine
Katherine @ 153
Phew…that was fast. I think they were all hungry.
That’s one of the issues I was going to mention, Katherine, that we do not have a single, focused critical mass that can effect the change we need. But I think it’s less that we don’t share the same opinions; I think we believe that individuals are free to support an issue, being less dogmatic and less inclined to adopt a singular ideology. We have chased for far too long the single issue, pulling our power part rather than pulling together — and that’s exactly what Kos and Jerome Armstrong picked apart in Crashing the Gates.
Think of the numerous posts that Jane and Christy have published on womens’ healthcare autonomy and the failure of NARAL to adequately represent women on this issue. NARAL has taken money from us that if spent on Democratic solidly candidates could have ensured womens’ rights were better protected. But there are activists among us who reject supporting the Democratic Party and will only support NARAL or a candidate based on one issue — and we know how that turned out.
In some ways this is where Chris Bowers is wrong. Maybe that’s too strong, perhaps he’s simply too far ahead of the curve. But until we have better discipline about voting for candidates that fundamentally share as core values the respect for individuals to self-determine their reproductive healthcare choices, pulling resources away to other efforts will continue the fragmentation. I hope that Bowers’ efforts will continue to pulls us together, whatever he chooses to do.
rayne-
people don’t like being labelled with something they can’t control…..i don’t like being labelled a liberal, with the same definition as code pink….i don’t agree with their tactics and many others, in fact, their ‘antics’ peeve me off, takes away from legitimate discourse, is meant to manipulate emotions, and who likes to be manipulated? i don’t and i don’t like someone doing in my name, liberal.
i think they hurt the cause more than help it……they aren’t reaching out to create a dialogue, they are just slammin’ to make an impact, and one that does’t last because it isn’t based on dialogue…..
dialogue is the only one that lasts…..therefore you need an opening for discourse…..which we used to have at least when i was growing up we did….i remember having a dialogue with others that i differed from, still do….but ‘liberal’ organizations like code pink? no thanks. …..therefore, the same label i would see as negative….liberal…i don’t lend myself to those labels…..
however, intellectually, i do label myself as dem or repub. then liberal, moderate or conservative……..
i am fine with that.
An off-topic item:
Jane, I have deep respect for you and am grateful for all you have done here, but as a San Antonio native I have two questions for you.
1) How many championships has Kobe Bryant won?
2) How many championships has Tim Duncan won?
Your pal,
estiv
dakine01 @ 79
So, you’ll be voting for Senator Hillary Clinton? I mean, she IS a Liberal and all, right?
I wonder … if Liberal is such a bad thing, then why does she allow them to call her a Liberal and why do so many people support her as a Liberal.
What does she stand for that IS Liberal?
Same question goes for Senator Barack Obama I suppose.
Hi Jane and others -
Since you asked about virtual watercoolers and applications, you should have a look at YouMob (http://youmob.com). I’m one of the founders at YouMob, as well as an avid FDL reader (and occasional commenter), and YouMob was greatly inspired by the community interactions of FDL. We allow realtime gathering of website viewers, encouraging chat-like comments and reactions to opinions and ideas expressed on the web page. We also provide ways to attract and gather people to the site.
I keep seeing comments from FDL authors asking people to keep their comments strictly to the topic at hand, especially when guest authors or politicians are participating in FDL chats. YouMob is a great way to have out-of-band chat going on – for those sorts of greetings and short friendly comments that FDL commenters seem to enjoy so much but might otherwise overload the FDL servers and moderators.
I use YouMob to browse FDL, but wish I had other FDL readers joining me there for an additional feeling of community. Anyway, I hope you’ll check it out, and we’d be *very* interested in ideas and feature requests from the FDL community if people saw this as a useful tool.
By the way, this FDL posting is mobbed at http://youmob.com/mob.aspx?mob…..-watergate
lauren @ 65
And Matt Taibbi has now learned a lesson:
Bash conservatives and back it up with facts, and the MSM won’t print you.
Bash the MSM for being conservative and back it up with facts, and the MSM won’t print you.
Bash liberals for any old thing you make up, and the MSM will make you as rich as you want to be.
He’s on the same sellout route taken by Christopher Hitchens, Jake Tapper, and David Corn (who recently co-wrote a book with the ultimate CelebCorp member, Michael “I take Drudge’s and Lucianne’s dictation” Isikoff). And it will get him nice berths at a network or a magazine, and plenty of face time on TV.
MarkH @ 164
Mark, what does what you said have to do with what Dakine said?
dmac @ 162
Oh, I grok you completely. I think that Code Pink originally set out under Diane Wilson and Nina Utne to become an American variant of Las Madres de Plaza de Mayo; had they been more focused like Las Madres, they could have been more effective. But they have degraded into a clownish caricature; some of the problem is with their lack of focus, and some of it is that they failed to protect their “brand” from the corruption that the right-wing media was surely going to wreak on them. In the shortest terms, the intent was right but the execution was poor. By comparison, look at Las Madres; one cannot help but have sympathy for their cause because of their quiet but firm resolve and persistence.
I don’t use the label liberal in reference to myself because the wingers have completely corrupted it in our culture. And until we can take it back through a sustained conscious effort, I’m not goint to let them set the terms of the discussion.
I am about human progress, which is based in expansion not contraction; conservatism is its opposite because it seeks to contract and stop progression out of a misguided belief that what is best for individuals is to shrink and conserve. I embrace the label progressive; they have obviously had a hard time corrupting that label.
MarkH @ 164
Is she? Or does she merely appear to be more liberal on a scale that has moved to the right since her earlier icon Goldwater died?
She may understand the VRWC, but she cannot coopt it at her own will; she can’t set the terms under which any label will be applied to her. Why do you think she has any power to “allow” people to call her anything besides Hillary and Clinton?
What’s your point? By comparison to the candidates running under the Republican banner, they are both liberal. It all depends on one’s point of reference. But what’s your point of reference here, let alone your point?
rayne-
thanks.
therefore the need for qualifiers.
democrat or republican
liberal, moderate or conservative……….
they used to serve us well, republicans took them away…….
democrat or republican/ecomonic issues
liberal, moderate, conservative/social issues……..
and add progressive…….
progressive democrat and progressive republican.
dmac @ 169
I would argue whether there is such a thing as a progressive Republican. Being a Republican means subscribing to conservatism which is antithetical to progressivism.
And I’m not certain there’s such a thing as a conservative Democrat any longer; you’re either for progress or you’re not. At one time I labeled myself as fiscally conservative, but I’m really not; I’m fiscally responsible, in that the responsible thing to do with money may not be the conservative thing. (Just look at our budget deficit. Yeesh. Conservatives made it and it’s hardly responsible.)
rayne—
gotcha–
no, i haven’t seen any progressive republicans yet, still to come………progressive democrats, yes. maybe that’s the new wave…..watch for progressive republicans to hatch on to the name….
and fiscally responsible?
hmmmmmmm. no tag for that yet either, anymore.
the rest of what i said i believe still holds.
dem or repub/economics
then
liberal, moderate, conservative/social issues
name your label specifically.
and not having the ‘recent posts’ menu is making stopping back here a real bitch…i’m on dial up and had to through every single fukng post to get back here, took a while…i complained/suggested, nothing happening yet. help me out if you have a vote, we need the recent posts menu back.
Taibbi is 169 percent correct. Sorry guys, his characterizations are pretty much on the money.
One thing that struck me about his piece was that I remembered Tom Wolfe making many similar points 35 years ago in his essay “Radical Chic.” (At least I think it was “Radical Chic.”) He documents that the same generation Taibbi praises for fighting a real fight – against the Vietnam War – fretted much the same way he says today’s liberals do. Back then they spent a lot of energy trying to convince themselves they were being brutally oppressed by Lyndon Johnson and his goons. LBJ may have kept a wary eye on them at times, but if you compare that to truly vicious oppression like the Gestapo, they – and we – have it made. (Wolfe himself makes the Gestapo reference, so that’s not a Godwin violation.)