(Comparative Military spending, 2002)
Ian writes more regularly for The Agonist.
Last week I talked about the principles of guerrilla warfare. This week let’s talk about the US military.
Here’s the baseline fact that must be accounted for – the US is currently losing two wars against a bunch of armed rabble. Both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are being lost. The Iraq war will almost certainly be lost (though “declaring victory and leaving” might be the best path). Afghanistan, which I think is theoretically still winnable, will almost certainly be lost, since neither NATO in general, nor the US in specific is willing to spend the money or manpower necessary to win it.
Now the US is responsible for about half of all the military spending in the world. Even in purchasing parity terms, it spend as much as the next six combined. It certainly spends so much more than the Iraqi or Afghani guerrillas that they aren’t even rounding errors. And yet the US is losing.
Under such a circumstance the thing that strikes me, as something of an outsider, is not that people like Obama and Clinton are suggesting the military needs even more soldiers, but the questions no one asks.
Given that the US spends almost half the world’s entire military budget, how is it that it’s losing two wars to a bunch of rabble?
and
Are you getting your money’s worth?
and
What good is this military doing you, anyway?
Seriously – when you spend this much, and bear in mind that the cost of past and current military expenditures comes in at about 41% of all expenditures (28% if you just want to count current military spending) you have to turn around and ask – what are we getting for this?
The answer, as far as I can see, is “not much”.
Politicians often claim that military spending “makes Americans safer”. Let’s examine that.
Safe from what? Is anyone going to invade you? Is there anyone who is even remotely capable of invading you? No. Right, so it’s not about “defense” as traditionally understood.
Safe from terrorists? There’s an argument here, I suppose, but it’s not very strong. Certainly the use of military force over the last few years has increased the frequency of terrorist attacks throughout the world, not decreased them. One might argue that by “fighting them there” we aren’t “fighting them here.” I’m sure the Spanish and Brits might have something to say about that, but in fact, the odds of any attack from Islamic terrorists have always been low. How many terrorist attacks by foreigners (as opposed to Americans) have occurred on US soil over the last 20 years? Not many. It’s a low probability event and the lack of an attack since 9/11 on US soil reflects that. Mind you, the attack on Afghanistan did disrupt al-Qaeda, and that was a good thing. But that attack did not require the vast majority of the US military and an expedition multiple times that size could be done even if the US spent much less money on the military.
In fact the majority of actual terrorist captures have been the result, not of military action, but of the sort of police and intelligence work that mostly doesn’t require much in the way of military resources (special ops teams at most. And they aren’t expensive compared to the big iron.)
While the military has soaked up billions, things that might keep the “homeland” safe, like scanning all cargo containers, pushing the most advanced explosive sniffers out to airports, and so on, have been grossly underfunded.
And the use of the military, as is widely acknowledged, has plunged the US’s approval ratings to their lowest ever levels, spawned a whole new generation of guerrillas and terrorists with every reason to hate the US and has plunged the world’s most important oil producing region into chaos which threatens the oil markets, and thus the US economy.
Anything that needs to be done against terrorists by the military can be done with a lot less military than you have now. And, honestly, given blowback such as is occurring in Iraq and Afghanistan, anything the military can do against terrorists that requires large scale intervention, is almost certainly going to be counterproductive.
To a large extent this is because you don’t have a colonial anti-insurgency army. The US army is flat out awful at occupation. And this isn’t because of anything easily fixed – it permeates the army. It was built for open field combat against conventional forces. The troops and equipment are fantastically expensive, making attrition warfare against any US occupying force cost the US much more than their enemies – you could lose ten guerrillas per US casualty, and they’d be ahead (the Iraqis appear to have a much better ratio than this, by the way.) US military organization is not set up for insurgency warfare. The doctrine, while it’s just been re-written, is not understood by the majority of the officer corp and has not been tested in the field. And US troops have an awful attitude for 4th generation warfare, being trigger happy and far too willing to blow away civilians if they sense even the least possibility of danger to themselves. As a consequence they make enemies everywhere they go, and the longer they occupy an area, the more opposition there is, while a good occupation should do the opposite. The US also has an awful ratio of non-combatant to combatant troops and “moves heavy” with ridiculous over-use of civilian contractors who hamper it logistically, run up costs, and are not subject to military discipline, thus causing even further problems with the indigenous population.
The US military, in short, sucks at insurgency, occupation and colonial style warfare. It is brilliant at battlefield operations outside of major urban centers and is probably, as a whole, the premier battlefield supremacy army in the world today. The Gulf War showed that very clearly. And, indeed, if the US military had blown into Baghdad, toppled the regime and left in 6 months, everyone would still be trembling in fear.
What the US has, then, is a decapitation military. It’s very good at knocking off governments, but not so good at guaranteeing what happens afterwards.
Is this worth what you’re paying for it? Certainly the military has its uses. The navy, in particular, keeps trade lines open that are vital to the US economy. But do you need the world’s most expensive military? If you do, do you need a decapitation/battlefield supremacy army of the sort you have, or do you need to convert it into one suitable for fighting colonial anti-insurgency wars. Call it “peace making”, “nation building”, whatever – do you want an army capable of going into other nations and ruling them until a government is in place you can live with? Capable of fighting and defeating guerrillas?
Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama and most of the Republican field, want to increase the size of the US’s ground forces. That makes sense only if you expect to be involved in more wars on the Iraq model – occupations; guerrilla wars – or if you intend to be blowing over even more, and more powerful governments.
And there is an opportunity cost to the military. As Eisenhower pointed out so eloquently, every dollar spent on the military is a dollar that could have been spent helping someone who needed it – feeding the hungry, teaching those who need schooling, caring for the sick, or even just repairing roads or building high speed Internet so the US stops falling behind other 1st world nations.
A modern military is almost always a huge burden on the state and the people of the state. It produces nothing. It is nothing but a money suck. Sometimes it’s necessary – some nations really are in danger of being invaded. Other states have problems with internal order that require them to have an army to put down parts of their own population (Turkey and the Kurds, for example).
But the US doesn’t have any possibility of being invaded; doesn’t need an army for internal order (and is forbidden to use it for that purpose in any case); and is running significant trade; government and balance of payment deficits. Entitlements are currently under pressure, with much talk, still, in elite circles of ‘reforming” both social security and Medicare. And in this context, folks, reform always means providing less and taxing more.
At some point the US is going to have to make some hard decisions about what’s going to give. You can’t have all of – low taxes on the rich, a big military, entitlements spending, big deficit spending. One, or probably two, of those pillars, are going to have to go.
At the current time, elite thinking is that it’s going to be entitlements and maybe, just maybe, the deficit. It sure isn’t going to be low taxes on the rich or the military which makes so many corporations rich and which so many regard as “untouchable” and oh-so American (an attitude, by the way, that would have made most of America’s founders, with their profound distrust of standing armies, sick to their stomaches.)
Perhaps you think the military gives you something that’s worth all that money. To me all it does is tempt politicians to use it, suck money out of the rest of the economy, and endanger the remnants of the New Deal. Some might say that it endangers republican Democracy itself, as the march towards permanent war “the long war” along with arguments about the “Commander-in-Chief” has been used to undermine liberty at home.
The founders argued that large standing armies were inimical to liberty, to democracy, to the health of the economy and to peace itself. I’d say they knew what they were talking about.
Related posts:
- Intelligence Shortfalls And The Waziristan Offensive
- Priming the Pump: While Wars for Oil Gobble More Oil, Military Forced to Eye Alternative Fuels
- Report Confirms Poor Electrical Work by KBR Endangers US Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan
- We Entered Afghanistan Bearing Cash for Warlords, After All
- Costs of Iraq, Afghanistan Wars Proving Unsustainable





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

zeddy
Hi Ian
Ooh, #3 cool!
And this is just one town:
AP – Security forces in Baghdad have full control in only 40 percent of the city five months into the pacification campaign, a top American general said Saturday as U.S. troops began an offensive against two al-Qaida strongholds on the capital’s southern outskirts.
This statement is so true Ian: And, indeed, if the US military had blown into Baghdad, toppled the regime and left in 6 months, everyone would still be trembling in fear.
War! What is it good for?
Great post, Ian.
BAGHDAD – Private security companies, funded by billions of dollars in U.S. military and State Department contracts, are fighting insurgents on a widening scale in Iraq, enduring daily attacks, returning fire and taking hundreds of casualties that have been underreported and sometimes concealed, according to U.S. and Iraqi officials and company representatives.
While the military has built up troops in an ongoing campaign to secure Baghdad, the security companies, out of public view, have been engaged in a parallel surge, boosting manpower, adding expensive armor and stepping up evasive action as attacks increase, the officials and company representatives said. One in seven supply convoys protected by private forces has come under attack this year, according to previously unreleased statistics; one security company reported nearly 300 “hostile actions” in the first four months.
i think the only way to keep us safe is to NOT fight wars. war, for many, seems like a good quick solution, but like you said it can make us less safe, and it is just a temporary solution to what is usually a bigger problem.
Does the miltary budget numbers include non military aid to Iraq and Afghanistan? What about Mercs where are the paid for in the budget? If we include the Mercs how many troops do we really have fighting?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 4
What percentage did we have control of before the surge? Also are we controling all the bridges yet and how many bridges had to be blown up in Bagdad before our military started to catch on?
Don’t know about the rest of ya, but I’m going to go back downstairs to the previous (environmental) thread, since that’s my bag. (Plus pandemic flu.)
In other words, I hereby declare the previous threat not closed.
(Can I do that?)
The US is in precisely the position of France in the 17th and 18th centuries, the Italian kingdoms, Spain and the Holy Roman Empire at that time. The monarchs and princes of those nations bankrupted their countries through the profligate and unsustainable pursuit of war (la gloire)and religious repression. In France, the burden of debt and the incompetence of its rulers in dealing with it eventually erupted in a revolution. The question is: can America avoid this fate and elect leaders who can shrink the military-industrial-Congressional complex.
Prof @ 11
Don’t know, I’ll have to check with the other peasants.
Hi Ian!
now to read post
Such an important and excellent post Ian!
Should be required reading by every elected official in the country, most especially in the State Houses and the US Senate and House. Maybe we’ll get really lucky and Joe Liarman will read it too.
Perpetual war for perpetual peace.
Can there ever be an honest discussion in American politics about the military: its purposes, capabilities, and shortcomings? I think not — witness the “support the troops!” ammo sent Harry Reid’s way for criticizing the incompetence of Peter Pace.
As long as America’s corporations are dependent on warmaking, and as long as Americans believe themselve exceptional, America will have a large standing army extremely well-qualified and well-equipped to fight the last war. It will require a magnificent catastrophe — whether natural, manmade, economic or ecological — to undo the role of the military in American affairs.
Swell post, Ian — thanks so much!
A trillion here; a trillion there…
Many of us can’t help but wonder how things would look today had we (they) not gone into Iraq. Imagine how our standing in the world would differ. How could the money have been spent? I really cannot understand why we are there.
Incredible post, Ian
how much of today’s “booming” economy is due to military/war spending anyway?
I’m stupid about economics
Parents. One of the benefits of spending all this money on losing propositions like Iraq is that you won’t have to worry about sending your kids to college. You won’t be able to afford to.
Excellent post, Ian, and a wedge Democrats should pound home every chance they get – the cost-effectiveness of our MIC.
I think the founders distrusted a standing army not only because of the drain on resources, but because they realized those forces would generally be engaged, thus stifling domestic debate (you can’t question a Rep. president during a time of war, but you sure as hell impeach a Dem. one under the same conditions!).
Given the costs of war did our Generals ever tell Bush how that if we have X amount of troops in Iraq, for X amount of years, we would need to pump X barrels of oil, assuming todays current prices. That is assuming we ever get Iraq pumping oil again full stength. I’m wondering how long will this war have to go on before buying every Family in America a hybrid car would have been a cheaper option. A demand driven drop in oil prices would freeze Al Quieda’s funding. A world wide plan to only sell cars around the world that get 50 mpg, light trucks at 35 and big trucks 25 plus they would all be diseal for more pulling power. Would terrify the rich Arabs who fund Al Queida turning the funders of terror against the terrorists and would divide the movment. Plus it would be a lot cheaper than this war.
Eisenhower was so prophetic in warning us about the “military industrial complex”.
Corporations are always hungry to suck from the military teat and with large donations (bribes) to candidates and post-office lucrative lobbying and consulting positions(more bribes) they guarantee tha the milk keeps flowing…
Public funding of elections and no more lobbies now!
The magical month of September (Iraq occupation funding) is fast approaching.
Loo Hoo. @ 18
For me, Loo Hoo, it’s hard to imagine that without popping a few blood vessels.
and I’m cynical enough to think there are those legislators and pundits in favor of easy immigration from Latin America just so there are more bodies to put in uniform, more soldier pawns to fight this Global Monopoly/Risk Game.
We are repeating the mistakes of all the previous great powers exactly. Just mix the cost of empire and the decimation of production because financial speculation is favored over investment in domestic manufacturing and BAM! The next thing you know your a second rate power. Just ask the formerly Great Britain.
It Elliott @ 19
A large amount of what has kept the economy going is war stimulus spending. Very inefficient way to do it, but it works. Stirling Newberry likes to joke “the patient breathes just fine, so long as we don’t unhook him”, my comparison is to an addict – each hit the economy gets works less and less well….
Ian, that post was spot on!!! As a twenty-yr Army vet, I concur with many of your points! I would like to expand a little on it! 1) The Army is geared for ‘force-on-force’ tactics, not, guerilla warfare, our Independence from Britain was secured through a similar attrition rate and costs that the Brits were unwilling to endure! 2) Ike warned us early on about the Military/Industrial complex’s growing undue influence on our national treasury and congress! And, 3) The funds expended on our ‘National Defense’ is monies spent with no tangible net worth, not only because of the diversion from productive Societal uses, but, also because much of the monies are squandered/wasted by the Uniformed Services and the Defense Contractors’ No-Bid shenanigans!
September:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfLEc09tTjI
Thanks, Ian, for raising these issues, they desperately need wider discussion.
Some of us are old enough to remember that the Democratic Party used to be called the “war party”. WWI, WWII, the Korean War, all fought under Democratic presidents. Vietnam was started by a Democrat (Kennedy) and ended by a Republican (Ford).
Clinton and the DNC appear to want to go back to those days. Clinton has been very clear that she wants to increase the size of the military and use it offensively to escalate the war in Afghanistan and to threaten Iran. Obama seems to be embracing the same approach, although somewhat reluctantly.
Right now the Democratic candidates seem to me to be advocating a colonial-style aggressive US military more than at least Romney or Giuliani on the Republican side (McCain is a wacko but I don’t consider him to be a serious candidate). People on the left in particular need to think, I believe, about whether or not that is what America should stand for.
Pastor Dan is not happy with Obama. Via C&L:
http://www.streetprophets.com/…..122443/800
Or this September:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqiyYulA8pM
And now the military industrial complex includes mercenaries, and we’re even outsourcing spy work!
greed is not good
Spiny @ 26
Which raises the obvious point; ‘If one doesn’t learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it!’ If only the Neocons had been intellectually curious… 8-(
DrenchedOtter @ 30:
Right now the Democratic candidates seem to me to be advocating a colonial-style aggressive US military more than at least Romney or Giuliani on the Republican side…
I thought I heard something about “Double Gitmo” from the last Republican debate. We aren’t hearing that from Hillary, Obama, or anyone on our side. Thank goodness.
Loo Hoo. @ 18
yeah, it really sucks in incomprehensible ways, doesn’t it?
in addition to all the human cost in the middle east, it just makes me heartsick to see the way we pissed away the sympathy offered to us after 9/11. really a lost chance.
Loo Hoo. @ 31
That is very bad news.
and ian, nice post. lotta good info and analysis.
Our whole country has its priorities upside down. I just wrote a post about corporate crime and the difference from regular crime, but how the media makes it seem the other way round.
Spiny @ 26
lots of ways that the UK is a nicer and more comfortable place to live these days than the US. of course, plenty of rough transition times. but there are worse places to end up ….
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 35
I agree that Giuliani in particular, and many of the other Republican candidates more evasively, are advocating expansion of domestic police power to curtail individual liberties at home.
However, it seems to me that at least the leaders on the Republican side are far more reluctant to commit the US military outside Iraq than the Democrats. It’s Clinton who is out there criticizing Bush for not being aggressive enough on Iran, even as Gates tries to soften the rhetoric.
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 35
I don’t know, I certainly do not like the rhetoric being espoused by the Dem frontrunners! I like Kucinich’s Dept. of Peace proposal! :-0
A good question to ask the General Petraeus is how does he expect America to pay for this war? When he says that is Congresse’s job (Bahahaha evil laugh) no seriously we say YOU really have no idea how long America can afford to keep troops in the field? How can you know that unless you know how we can pay for those troops. Now then Peter is your war worth raising taxes for? and if so in your opinion on whom would the taxes be raised and by what amount?
things come undone @ 43
even better question to ask our congress critters and the pres candidates who are trying to dodge this issue …
lee5 @ 36
remember how the whole world cried with us that day? I was overwhelmed by the heartfelt feelings from around the globe. wouldn’t happen now.
We must round up and try these war criminals, sooner rather than later, even if it means kidnapping the lot of them mossad style from Dubai and down Paraguay Way. That’s our only hope for redemption.
Someone better throw some lime on the caracass of American Democracy. I can smell the stink from DC all the way up here in New Hampshire.
-GSD
Elliott @ 45
I was spending a lot of time in europe in 2001 and 2002 and saw attitudes changing first hand as it became clear what we were about to do. pretty discouraging
So. If suddenly we stopped the Iraq occupation and brought all our troops home, what effect would that have on our economy?
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 35
It sure would be nice if Kucinich got more credit for having the courage to run a campaign of ideas, instead of the endless stories about his height and his haircut!
SnarKassandra @ 39
Ain’t that the truth, Missie! Blue-collar crime’s cost is maybe a fifth of White-collar crimes monetary damages, yet, Blue-collar criminals face five times harsher sentences than White-collar criminals!!! A sad commentary on our priorities!!!
DrenchedOtter @ 49
yeah, but then we might have to pay attention to the ideas!
Thank you, Ian! Our military is bleeding us dry, can’t fight today’s wars, is wasting huge amounts on preparing to fight the last four wars, is promoting religious zealots, and has contempt for the American citizenry that pay for it. It can’t protect us against terrorists, and its belligerance on nuclear superiority makes us more vulnerable to attack, not less.
In short, it does us no good and thinks it is better than us.
Chop it down to a quarter of its size and then let’s see what its priorities are.
lee5 @ 44
Yes with a follow up question after the normal “talking points answer” we need a truth squad to interupt during a debate to get real answers out of these ….and I include the Democrats.
Don’t Stop Belivin’
——————————
Rich: Scooter’s ‘Sopranos’ go to the mattresses
Frank Rich compares the Jersey mob family portrayed in a hit TV show with the real-life “Washington mob.” Rich takes aim at all those pushing for a pardon for former White House aide I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, who was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice during the CIA leak investigation, and sentenced to thirty months in prison.
“True, the Washington mob isn’t as sexy as the Gotti or Soprano clans, but there is now a gripping nonfiction dramatization of its machinations available gratis on the Internet, no HBO subscription required. For this we can thank U.S. District Judge Reggie Walton, who presided over the Scooter Libby trial,” Rich continues. “Walton’s greatest move was not the 30-month sentence he gave Libby, a fall guy for higher-ups (and certain to be pardoned to protect their secrets). It was instead the judge’s decision to make public the testimonials written to the court by members of the Washington establishment pleading that a criminal convicted on four felony counts be set free.”
On Friday, RAW STORY published an essay written by Bill Moyers, based on that night’s edition of his weekly public affairs program Bill Moyers Journal, entitled “Begging his Pardon,” in which he slammed neoconservatives for ignoring the “real fallen soldiers,” as they plead for leniency on behalf of a former White House official who “deliberately poured poison into the drinking water of democracy by lying to federal investigators, for the purpose of obstructing justice.”
Rich similarly concludes, “When the godfathers of this war speak of never leaving ‘a fallen comrade’ on the battlefield in Iraq, as Ajami writes of Libby, they are speaking first and foremost of one another.”
Libby’s lawyers argued that these letters should remain locked away on the hilarious grounds that they might be “discussed, even mocked, by bloggers.”
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 6
Bruce did a great version too. I have to see if they have the video of him version of the song that is on Live 1975-85.
military keynesism is an addiction
Oklahoma kiddo @ 4
Reminds me of the now cashiered talking point:
“Only 4 of Iraqs 18 provinces have insurgent activity.”
We don’t hear that one much no mo’.
-GSD
How is it you and I can figure this out but those who graduate from our military academies can’t ???
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 55
I found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DIp7ew_z8I
DrenchedOtter @ 49
He may be short in stature, but, he is grand(iose) in ideas!!! ;-)
A very, very fine post, Ian.
I really do not understand what looks to me like American sentimentality about their military.
All of this “protecting out freedoms” stuff – and when was the last time the US fought a purely defensive war? When was the last time the Americans were NOT engaged in some military adventure overseas?
James E. Thompson @ 58
I think they can. They just have to suck up to Commander Guy.
Oh, and my other thought – Ian, you mentioned that there was still a chance of winning in Afghanistan . Any idea what a victory would look like?
Elliott @ 33
RJ Hillhouse was on latenight on Thursday with lots of good info. Her new book OUTSOURCED has been published. If you want to read the comments, start at #158.
http://www.thespywhobilledme.com/
Joe Klein’s conscience @ 62
My brother is in the military and he’s turning pretty liberal and has opinions about the war that are not the same as Bush. But he is not allowed to put them in writing or in public.
It seems that a very bad, but relatively small element, of so-called elected officials has a very bad grip on our psyche. It lies to us every day all day long, through its mouthpiece, the mainstream media. It tells us that if we leave Iraq, the world will fall apart. It tells us that we must continue to sacrifice our children so that the world doesn’t fall apart. It tells us that people will swim the oceans, and fly the airstreams to kill us all, and cross the border, no…they’re already here, in your neighborhood, at the pizza parlor… If not the enemy, then it will be a virus, or a rogue atom bomb, coming through our ports… We’re all gonna die, any minute…AAAAAAHHHHH.
STOP. STOP. STOP.
We have to STOP.
Stop the lies. Stop the liars. We know the truth, and their lies are not the truth.
I am not afraid of them. Not one little bit.
selise @ 56
Elegantly said, selise. I think we are facing that from both parties, maybe the Democrats more than the Republicans: the idea that spending more money on the military is good because it stimulates the economy, provides jobs for young people, and distributes government money to states that might otherwise be short-changed. Once you’re hooked, it’s hard to get that monkey off your back.
Lee5, do you live in England?
Fern @ 61
But, but, I thought Shrub ran on a ‘No nation-building’, Clinton has broken our Military, ad nauseum… Platform in ‘00!!! ;-)
time to repost
tw3k’s PNAC video link:
war corporatism
Well, if the Pentagon and their buddies at Lockheed, Boeing, GE, Raytheon et al could pull their collective heads out of their a**es and look at the world as it is and not as they wish it were, we could start be cancelling things like the Osprey, all the next generation fighter and bombers, star wars/missle defense, battlefied tactical nukes, large tanks, aircraft carrier groups, and I know I’m missing a few dozen other big ticket systems.
Might even save a few billion dolalrs each year out to where the costs are anticipated to be at the trillions level.
I ain’t holdin’ my breath on it though…
Loo Hoo. @ 68
nope — Colorado. (Didn’t you spend time in liverpool area earlier in life? Am I remmebering correctly?)
But, I’ve spent a lot of time there (just visiting and for work).
Loo Hoo. @ 64
Thanks! will also look for her book.
So our military is just like our health care. Spend a lot, get very little. Except for the few at the top who get very, very rich.
During the ‘04 campaign, didn’t Bush use the phrase “results matter”? Why doesn’t someone, anyone, on the tv, remind him of that, and use these kinds of figures to prove that everything the Bush administration does SUCKS!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
Recession.
cassie at 39 says:
Our whole country has its priorities upside down. I just wrote a post about corporate crime and the difference from regular crime, but how the media makes it seem the other way round.
=======================
darlin’ i remember when it was the other way around……..and i’m not the only one…….which gives me great hope that people still remember what the word ‘ethics’ means……..i am glad and heartened that you know what it means…….i love your voice. keep on using it.
frank 33:
left you a comment at watergate thread at 146
James E. Thompson @ 58
What’s the saying “it’s hard to make a man understand something his job requires him not to understand”?
People who have military careers generally believe big militaries are good things. People like Eisenhower are anomalies.
Ian Welsh @ 75
ian, do you think this consideration is driving any of the congressional “support” for continuing the iraq occupation?
Elliott @ 70
heh, that is a powerful toob isn’t it.
LS at 66, LOVE YA!
Ian Welsh @ 75
and if the Great Plains are planted solely in corn, you can add dustbowl to that to get another Great Depression
Fern @ 63
A reasonably decentralized state.
They key to winning in Afghanistan is flooding the place with money that makes it into the hands of ordinary Afghanis and of building up an administration. Soros had some interesting comments in his last book on how you’d do it.
But it won’t happen, because no one is going to spend the necessary money. Money isn’t meant for peasants and ordinary people, better to spend it on guns and overprices contractors.
I would also recommend The New American Militarism by Andrew Bacevich.
-GSD
lee5 @ 72
No time in Liverpool. In fact, the only time I’ve been in England is when I was in Heathrow on the way home from Italy. August 12 of last year, the week-end of the sports drink terror threat. Absolute nightmare.
selise @ 78
It is in the Dems interest, realpolitik, for the war to end about the end of this year, I’d say, so the US is in a significant recession by election time.
If I were a Republican, based just on this, I’d have wanted the war either ended by now, or hang on till after the election.
But I think for Republicans it really is coming down to macho authoritarian tribalism. They just can’t bear to admit it’s lost, and that they were wrong, really.
Ian Welsh @ 75
Most certainly, if only because what manufacturing base we have left here in the States, is primarily Defense related industry!!! Not a pretty picture, folks!
50 acres have burned, and they’re starting evacuations.
Ian Welsh @ 82
And oil and gas pipelines.
-GSD
Ian Welsh @ 75
Yes… that’s what would happen. But we’re not saying that is a reason to not stop the occupation. Are we?
Ian Welsh @ 75
what about a matched program to invest in clean energy, global warming mitigation, social justice, health care, education, etc.? (I know … dreamin’ the dream)
Loo Hoo. @ 87
ooh … that sucks ….
tw3k @ 79
indeed!
What we need even less is the large standing army based in North Carolina called the Blackwater Group. It also has bases in other locations; I think they’re in or near DC, Chicago and central California. Just right for counter-insurgency work at home.
The scale of Bush administration outsourcing is extensive and badly underreported; military outsourcing is just the most visible. Instead of doing the traditional military job with govt employees, who work at cost, Bush outsourced the work to private businesses, substantially increasing the cost and gutting accountability. In many instances, it also means getting poor value for money.
Mercenaries, for example, operate in a legal black hole. They are not bound by the int’l treaties that govern US forces. It’s unclear whether they have any practical liability under those contracts with Shrub. National laws don’t exist yet to hold them accountable in Iraq and Afghanistan, and where they do, “status of forces” agreements have been expanded to include our private armies, which exempts them from liability.
From Bush’s perspective, mercenaries allow him to fight in Iraq with twice the forces than he’s reported as using, so the war looks a lot smaller and less expensive. Their use avoided a politically inconvenient draft or publicly debated congressionally authorized increase in size of US forces. But they’re expensive, which means we’re paying a helluva lot to make life convenient for George Bush. (Standard operating procedure for those in Mr. Bush’s wake.)
That legal black hole is also convenient because it makes it hard to sort out who’s responsible when things go wrong. It’s hard even to determine who has jurisdiction to prosecute a claim. While this nominally reduces costs, it does so only because it “externalizes” them onto those harmed, who go uncompensated. (Another standard procedure for Team Bush.) Morally, ethically and legally wrong, it ensures that we create enemies for life.
Just as dangerous from a citizen’s perspective is that the scope of what our govt is responsible for goes underreported and unaccounted for – because sleight-of-hand budgeting hides the costs among many budgets.
Blackwater exists because of George Bush, not because it meets an essential need in an efficient or effective way. In my opinion, its existence is a continuing threat to national security, which Congress should promptly investigate.
Ian Welsh @ 85
yeah, just listen to William “the Bloody” Kristol
dmac @ 76
I do not want to beat a dead horse named Taibbi to death. You are correct, the dialog, the vocabulary, the “catapulting” of propaganda makes words weapons. Taibbi helps keep the war going, by spreading Bright Shiny Objects.
This is a time of war all right, and a time to show real courage. Most of the folks at FDL do. Also, thank you Ian Welsh.
About time somebody here in the ‘Big Leagues’ got their head out. All this bloviating about ‘are we safer…
Compared to what? The money we are bulldozing conveyor belting into the rathole we call the ‘Defense Department’ has created an entire nation addicted to the MI complex. Read my post: Military Keynesianism: What is that? And why should I care? for much more on what is going on backstage of the ‘freedom and democracy’ show.
And I’m not just talking about the actions of the ‘Duke’ Cunninghams, the Diane Feinsteins and all the rest of our bought and paid for convicted or not legislators. Joey the LiarMann ran on the plank that he ’saved the Groton submarine works….’ and voters bought in on that and re-elected him.
For decades ‘bringing home the bacon…’ has been the way to win re-election and the citizens have wallowed in the grease that results. Good high paying jobs building the machines of war. The next weeks paycheck the only concern. I worked on summer at the NARF in Oakland, CA where they rebuilt the war machinery with which we tried to hammer the Vietnamese into subjugation. Many, many workers there had gone into debt for various things, second homes…cars…whatever, based on the fact that the were sure to work every Saturday for the foreseeable future….at time-and-a-half.
People need to understand that the real reason we are in Iraq is to allow Halliburton, General Dynamics, Lockheed, and the rest of the MI Complex to loot the U.S. Treasury under the rubric of ‘Defense’. Further, that if they are working overtime in some munitions plant in Oklahoma that is a lousy trade: Chump change in the pocket now at the expense of any viable future for their kids.
You can also watch my slide show: Military Keynesianism: So yer WingNut friends can understand.
Then give some thought to what our country could do with the massive, obscene excess we are wasting on a 300 ship navy, the V-22 and more nuclear aircraft carriers. It’s sickening and stupid and what is worse very few are paying any attention to this issue whatsoever.
This is an area it would be great to see more analysis and blogging on up here in the ‘Big Leagues’.
It’s important.
Loo Hoo. @ 84
oops … then I’m confusing you w/ some other fire pup. (embarassed) and I won’t make things any worse by misremembering other guesses. (hides head for a moment)
Lee5,
Liverpool – it was me! 1964-67.
GSD @ 83
Who sadly lost his own son, Lt Andrew Bacevich, in Iraq recently.
LS @ 98
(you were my second guess, not fair to confuse the two of you based on first letter of handle … but I didn’t want to remember wrong again. whew!)
Loo Hoo. @ 87
Loo Hoo!!! OMG. Are you going to have to evacuate? That is terrifying. Wish you luck and good vibes to all your neighbors!!
SnarKassandra @ 65
‘Commander Guy’ ain’t got nothin’ to do wit it. The leadership of this country has lost it’s ability to do just that. They are stupid, greedy, not very smart folks who are doing what they are being paid to do.
Feed the military machine 50% of the national budget.
Why?
It ain’t to make us ’safer’…..
It’s so they get paid!
and do I have the rest straight? LS, you live on a ranch in the southwest? And Loo Hoo, you must live near sandy eggo and hopefully are out of range of the fires?
lee5 @ 90
You are correct, you are not dreaming. ;0)
lee5 @ 103
I live SW of Austin on a ranch.
speaking of mercenaries, and forgive me if this has been posted before
mercenaries parallel surge
ian, i can’t resist
i have a friend leaving for iraq, construction work…..for kbr, krb…..whatever…….
he can end up on a base that’s 30 miles wide by 50 miles long, picture that……..not in the green zone……one of his best friends is based there, is a truck driver that goes out on convoys to deliver things like fuel……..
or he could end up on one 5 miles by 1 mile and growing…….that is the point, one more base there……
how many? don’t know, will soon when he reports back……
we are still building over there….daily….getting the shit kicked out of us, but we’re still building permanent structures as we speak.
new construction.
what does that say?
on charlie rose, a few weeks ago, which i told everyone to please go watch it, condi rice said we are not leaving…….we are not leaving……one thing about this administration is, they do say what they are doing….doofuses, they lie on one hand and then say what is going on in the next breath…we are not leaving there.,,,,,
we are building more structures as we speak. what does that have to do with a surge? and protecting baghdad?
yeah, right.
newspaperbrat @ 15
Terrific Ian! I just went and spotlighted this to several national editors and military correspondents from AP to Defense News Agency. I think I’ll follow newspaperbrat’s idea above and use the Spotlight ‘format’ to re-mail this article to several Senators as well. In the spotlight I prefaced the the post with: “If you want to see how blogs and new media are punching holes in the Military Industrial balloon and will change the landscape of all politics supporting the military, read the blog article below… You may learn something extrordinary.”
I want to help make sure this gets read by as many as possible.
And hello everyone… It’s been a while.
For LS… SW of Austin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..mp;search=
earlofhuntingdon @ 93
Really scary stuff. Makes me wonder if the NRA had the right idea after all! What’s scarier still is the outsourcing of the CIA per RJ Hillhouse.
Nate!
I’m surprised to see no mention of Normon Solomon’s War Made Easy:
Amy Goodman devoted most of one of her shows Democracy Now! to show selections from the DVD. I saw that show, and it was a powerful presentation. Check the Democracy Now! archives, and you can see for yourself.
A major point is how easy it is to get into a war, and how hard it is to get out of one. A lot of that is due to how we have (mis-)used the language. Orwellian, indeed.
Bob in HI
Nate!
We have missed you here. Welcome back. Tell us everything.
newtonusr @ 111
Aloha newtonusr… Howz things?
LS @ 101
Thanks, but it’s a few miles away. So much smoke I can’t even see Palomar Mountain. Looks like it’s getting better because there have been airplanes doing drops for about an hour now.
dmac, hope you are in better spirits today….
It looks like there’s a new bombshell coming too. General Taguba, who was tasked to look into abuse at Abu Ghraib is now talking.
He was basically given the Shinseki treatment after his report was released.
Taguba says that the US higher ups whitewashed the report and that it was apparent that the abusers were acting on authority and not as rogue elements.
-GSD
lee5 @ 103
Got it right here!
Bugboy – if you are still here I left you a feisty response deep in EPUville two threads back.
GSD @ 116
let me add a link for this, it’s a hideous story:
How Antonio Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib scandal, became one of its casualties.
New thread…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
Wow.
Back at you!! Enjoy Texas and Oklahoma (Red Volkert playing)
http://www.paulinereese.com/mp…..lahoma.mp3
newtonusr @ 111
Nate, good for you. This article makes so much sense, Ian, that we do need to get it to a wider audience.
Elliott @ 119
Yeah Baby!!!!
GSD @ 116
Bless you GSD – any linky yet available?
egregious @ 113
I promise to do so in a blog post soon. I’ve been working hard and I’ve been quite the road warrior lately. Just got back from five straight 14-hr days in the big little city of Reno NV. It’s good to be home. I think I’m going to hunt down a swimming pool tonight and wet my gills after a week in the high mountain desert. I sure do miss my Hawaiian beaches on a Saturday night. What part of the globe are you in these days e?
Aloha to you too Bob.
Nate @ 114
Typical excitement – aftenoons by the lake. Tell us everything!
Elliott @ 33
Much of the mercenary budget isn’t even part of the actual Pentagon Budget…it’s paid through the CIA budget or the State Departments Budget. Some of the contractors may even be obtaning funding from other agencies (e.g. the Energy and Commerce Departments) involved in “reconstruction” programs in Iraq.
GSD @ 116
That’s good news! I’m sure Rumsfeld is knee-deep in that sh*t! I’m certain you’re spelling his name wrong, however, it’s ironic how all the Hawaii-born Generals were shown the door, for their straightforward assessments!!!
New thread upstairs on immigration
cinnamonape @ 127
newspaperbrat @ 124
Whoops- thanks Elliot.
Great to see you back Nate.
Whew – glad you are safe LooHoo!
Heading upstairs to read the post.
earl of huntingdonat 93=
i tried to find the article about contractors in my bookmarks couldn’t find it, is from today, maybe cnn or washington post……i’m on dial-up so couldn’t google without tearing my hair out…….crap, sorry.
what it basically said was that they are there for the duration. and not on the offense, but just providing services, and up to military to provide protection…….wait, maybe it was an email alert, let me check………nope……man, thougt i saved it, was a five page article…………
was a sob story of how they are targets…..and being protected by iraqi and us soldiers………and how casualty rates are inaccurate. much higher than being reported……….one of the persons in charge of documenting this was named last name holly, if that helps you google it.
great post – the kind of commonsense that most of the population would get behind if it was explained this way by the corporate media, or otherwise brought into the realm of acceptable thought.
and unfortunately, it can be used as the lead exhibit in the case that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between the two wings of the corporate ruling party… in fact Obama and Clinton are vying to outdo each other in promising to squander more money on the military/industrial/congressional complex.
I can’t even tell who is the least worst anymore ;(
Nate @ 130
haven’t started it but the caption chills:
“Against all enemies, foreign and domestic…” so went the Constitutional oath that I, along with millions of other veterans swore.
looo hooooo
yes, thanks for asking, i ride with the wave of reality……..
hard wave, buffer up and appreciate it’s power. and know you have your own by standing.
sporkovat @ 133
Both Richardson and Edwards aren’t for an expansion. Edwards was very explicit about it. (Same with Kucinik, as well, though sadly he doesn’t stand a chance.)
dmac @ 132
is this it?
I happened to have the window opened.
That’s some happy horseshit!
DrenchedOtter @ 30
Drenched Otter- You are certainly correct that the Democratic party was, through the first half of the last century the “party of interventionism” while the Republicans were the “party of isolationism”. Republicans were especially averse to the US getting involved in WW2…and even argued that we were supporting the wrong side with the Lend-Lease Program. Funny, they are the ones that generally haul out the old canard about not dealing with Hitler BEFORE he invaded Poland and France. Their party were actually the ones that were the strongest at dealing with Germany through what would later be termed “constructive engagement” for other regimes. The Republican Party were the party of non-interference ith business interests and profit-making…regardless of the politics of the country (as long as they were not atheistic Bolsheveks).
The Republicans in Congress enthusiastically supported Trumans intervention in Korea…as they did LBJ’s escalation in Vietnam. The policies of that latter war were initiated with Eisenhowers sending in military trainers into South Vietnam who participated in the battles with the VC. Kennedy certainly increased that contingent. And you are right, Ford ended the war with Vietnam…but nearly entered a new one with the Khmer Rouge. Th Democratic Party however did have Peace candidates in both 1968 (Bobby Kennedy..whose campaign was terminated by assassination) and 1972 (McGovern). Nixon was always a “Victory through Strength” candidate with a “secret plan to WIN the WAR”.
Like so many things the tenor of the parties shifted about a half-century ago. The Democrats have generally been less agressive and more interested in diplomatic solutions…the Republicans were generally Tub-Thumpers for military intervention (Reagan, Bush I, Bush II). Much of this was the result of the successful Republican courting of the Southern Dixiecrat wing of the Democrats after the struggles against Segregation (Nixon’s Southern Strategy”). Blacks increasingly supported the Democrats…conservative Southern whites (after a brief affaire with George Wallace) joined the Republicans. No longer would moderate “Rockefellar” Republicans have a chance for the nomination.
Nate @ 130
maybe FORTY cents of every DOLLAR to mercenaries?!
goddamn!
Thank you Ian, it was great discussion.
Don’t fear, the occupation of Iraq will end in early 2010. President Bush will see to that in his own special way – by attacking Iran. By attacking the supply lines the Revolutionary Guards should be able to bleed out the occupational U.S. forces in 6-10 months. You maybe should start to stash away gas before it hits 100 bucks per barrel… Maybe there’s a slogan in there : Don’t think Korea, think Vietnam.
Ian @ 136
aye, it’s good to hear they are not all being pulled along that rhetorical course.
but I was coming from a position like that of Arthur Silbur at powerofnarrative.blogspot.com
… basically that the elite consensus to which both (D) and (R) leaders subscribe holds that America alone is entitled to police and dominate the world, extract and control needed resources, pre-emptively attack perceived threats, basically all the stuff that would get other countries called a rogue state.
this is the attitude that got us where we are today – and though the neo-cons take it to a ludicrous extreme, the (D) party is just a more genteel version of the same gangsterism.
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp…..aq-is.html
Ian-I know you likely have your own answer to this…but after your fine piece one could raise the question as to WHY the US supposrts such an excessive and largelt inefficient military at great cost to social and economiuc development domestically…and a more efficient program of foreign aid that would improve the US image abroad?
It’s clear that this system benefits SOMEONE (or several SOMEONES).
When the Cold War ended there was lots of talk about how the “Peace Dividend” associated with a reduced military and the closure of bases was going to be expended. Such talk drove those in the military-industrial complex insane with fear. THEY certianly DID NOT benefit from the mothballing of military armament production lines or reduction of military contracts…and they were not going to convert their factories to plowshare-production (where there were already better plowshare makers already out there) without a political fight.
So we had a massive influx of corporate contributions to militaristic candidates…and the purchasing of the MSM outlets to promote the fight against a new “enemy” (Islamic terrorists) through conventional means (as there was little money in actually developing the methods of effective small-scale counter-insurgency using targetted aid and small forces). They had to encourage taking on rivals that were largely tangential to (or even a “natural opponent” to) Islamic terrorism (Iraq). Getting the US involved in such wars would create a situation where “perpetual war” would fuel their investors pockets for generations.
Of course, those investors are increasingly non-American and range from Australian media magnates to mainland Chinese bankers and politicians. Thus globalised capitalism uses and distorts “nationalism” and foment irrational fears to their own benefit.
elliot at 137
yes, that’s itm THANKS!
only problem is, the article i read was FIVE pages long, and this one is only one……….hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
((((cinnamonape))))
dmac @ 145
Check the Saturday Edition of the Washington Post…I think the longer article is there.
It’s cited in this AFP summary.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20…..g.RTaaOrgF
Also look at this NYT article
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02…..mp;emc=rss
dmac @ 145
it’s just the “Print this page” version
Has war fought in the traditional American sense, the Patton sense, become an anachronism? If so, as Ian seems to indicate, than why do we Americans continue to support it?
Does the truism still hold: If it’s good for General Motors, it’s good for America. Or,is this too, an anachronisms, as dusty and as faded as our old black and whites of ancestor immigrants who couldn’t speak English and glass tube radio sets broadcasting the ‘news of the day’.
When will we, as a nation, grow up and get past our sentimental delusions? It should be obvious to anyone conscious after Vietnam that our wars of imperialist expansion make us less safe than before we embarked upon any of those wars.
There are no easy answers to dismantling the war machine: it is something that perhaps we need to face individually before we can communicate about it collectively. It is also a self-reflective quality that all of our ‘leaders’ seem to lack.
I think we need to be aware how much we are all part of the war economy and of how our consumption patterns mirror our aggressive, unfriendly actions to all the other humans living on the planet.
This is on target.
What it misses is the fact that the military is the only jobs program that Republicans will tolerate. It is a source of pork-barrel expenditures that create local employment for people who are doing nothing except consuming to help the economy. And it has distorted the markets to which American corporations respond. That, not national security is why the military budget remains large. It is an addiction.
duh, still getting used to the internet…….went into history of sites…….i really was was ahead of my time, back in the late 80’s and early 90’s back when noone had emails or internet, i did, and got out of it for ten years…………just back into it from last oct. and man, have things changed……..
found the five page article, thanks everyone, you got my juices stirrin’ enough to wonder about it. and pursue it. thanks.
was a good read…….in many ways, now have it bookmarked in military contractors folder.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
the link didn’t paste for some reason…….
DrenchedOtter @ 41
Huh? Here’s what Giuliani said at the first Republican debate about Iraq.
After Duncan Hunter advocated a pre-emptive NUCLEAR STRIKE against IRAN’s nuclear facilities. Rudy said…
His only concession to “reason” wasthat such a military action would be difficult
Note that he’s already talkin’ about it in the present tense, as if the war in Iraq is merely a part of an attack against Iran.
And as far as Gates trying to soften the rhetoric…who precisely have been sending out all the Press Relases about IED’s being sent in from Iran (despite the fact that such weapons are used almost exclusively in Sunni, not Shiite, strongholds. That was the Pentagon. And it ws the Pentagon that has talked about the use of Iraqi bases that are training Shiite militias (well duh…WE encouraged such training back in the days of the Iraq Freedom Act when Saddam was in power by providing funds to Iraqi exiles to support such training). And it was the Pentagon that arrested the Iraqis in Mosul, which the Kurdish government said were acting solely as a diplomaic liaison, and have held them for five months!
I don’t see Gates as being particularly oriented towards turning down the heat…he hasn’t released the diplomats, pointed out that the shaped IED’s are unlikely to be intentionally supplied by Iran to Al Qaida and the Sunnis, etc.
And look at how Bush and Cheney were screaming about the British naval forces captured by Iran…which the British felt VERY UNHELPFUL.
I don’t particularly like Clinton’s position…but at least she hasn’t sid that Iran can’t have a well-regulated and inspected civilian nuclear power capability.That’s in line with the EEC’s position.
Just now have read Ian Welsh’s fdl posting.
As so many above have said…good work Ian.
It will come to matters of treasure. That is a real world/reality rule.
You build multi-billion super aircraft carriers and name them after recent leaders when you have the money to do so.
Not enough or no more money?
You don’t.
To garrison Iraq will be an ongoing,expensive undertaking year in/year out.
If Iran is attacked(which seems likely) that will only make any American garrison efforts in Iraq more dangerous,explosive and expensive.
The fiscal ‘IED’ the Bush/Cheney war gang thus far has avoided centers around not putting in place tax loads to pay for their ME empire grab.
This is the core,most dishonest component of the Bush/Cheney GWOT/Iraq Attack.
No national war tax load.
No national draft to fill/refill the ranks.
Strangely enough the Iraq War/Occupy this Bush/Cheney regime so desires is still funded willy nilly with ‘emergency funding’ bills.
Now is that just damn dishonest or what?
…after having been in Iraq since early 2003?
In mid 2007 still doing this “separate Iraq funding” ploy?
It will come down to treasure.
Stay with it Ian.
Late to the party, sorry.
cinnamonape @ 139
The more important distinction is that for well over 100 years (starting with Hawaii), the GOP has been delighted to intervene for economic / corporate reasons, but have never given a bleep about humanitarian reasons. Vietnam may have been horribly misguided, but it wasn’t to protect United Fruit.
Stephen Kinzer’s Overthrow spells it all out.
Using mercs on the scale we’re using them in Iraq is like a Republican mayor saying that he’s running Chicago more efficiently because he’s cut his police staff and budget in half.
Never mind that he’s outsourced the work to Pinkerton’s, whose people cost three to five times as much as the boys in blue, that the costs are spread among half a dozen city agencies and are never aggregated, and that no citizen or city agency can sue them when things go wrong. But, hey, some of their successes are outstanding.
Mercenaries like Erik Prince argue that for every merc employed, we save a boy or girl from Iowa, etc. Rubbish. Mostly, we’ve just changed their employer and hidden rather than reduced the size and cost of the US-led operation.
More Marines are on the battlefield, for example, because private contractors are protecting the bloated US mission staff. More special forces are in Afghanistan and Kirkuk because private contractors are protecting visiting dignitaries when they go shopping. More soldiers are busting down doors in Baghdad because private contractors are working convoy duty. But the US is footing the bill for all of them.
We have limited, if any, practical control over how mercs work We’ve structured it so that neither Congress nor the Iraqis know what the mercenaries do, how many there are, or what they cost. It would probably be easier to get a Gitmo detainee into a real court of law than to get a Blackwater Group merc into one for a battlefield wrong or even a simple violent crime like, oh, rape or theft.
Mercenaries are trying to maximize their billions by further outsourcing. They are hiring African and Latin American former soldiers instead of more expensive ex-UK or US personnel. But that doesn’t change the cost to the US or the “off balance sheet” liability we incur by using them.
(diving into the lake wearing my flameproof mod/diving suit and kevlar lined cap) just a free dive – no points no competition, just a dive for the sure pleasure of slicing through the water
g’evening everyone
The content of this thread of discussion is very upsetting.
First, it’s said the Republicans are right-wing authoritarians, but that Hilary Clinton wants to be more active abroad with the military and wants to increase spending on the military more than the Republican authoritarians.
That’s just plain weird.
Then, the thread seems to indicate the other alternative to Clinton is Kucinich and he’s wacky because he wants a “Peace department”.
Is that it?
Is that all we get?
We can have right-wing authoritarians or a Peace department or we can settle on someone who says we’re leaving Iraq, but not really and oh by the way we’re going to spend EVEN MORE on the military because if we don’t we’ll go into recession.
Really? That’s our choice?
I call b.s.
There are other choices and somehow they get shoved out of the discussion like they don’t exist.
If Americans allow the choices to be presented to them in these terms then they might as well just give up and let the Rich decide everything.
All Americans need to do to realize it’s phony strawman choices is to look at the entire list of candidates and wonder why they’re being spoon-fed such a narrow logic which offers completely unacceptable options.
Democrats should look at ALL of their candidates, not just Hilary and her V.P. Obama.
Isn’t it clear his entire purpose is to defend her wing, so no Democrat looks good in relation to her? Isn’t it clear he isn’t going to be President? They’re playing as a team: Clinton-Obama and arranging the choices with false logic to make their own nominations inevitable.
Why on earth would anyone allow themselves to be played that way only to be left at the end of the day with NO Liberals, stuck in Iraq forever and spending more money on the military?
Don’t buy into strawman choices. Think for yourselves.
James E. Thompson @ 58
At least one experienced graduate has it figured out. Active duty Army Lieutenant Colonel Paul Yingling [deputy commander, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment], in an excellent commentary and analysis published in May in the Armed Forces Jounal:
http://armedforcesjournal.com/2007/05/2635198
Basically, war isn’t for amateurs.
You know how Bush said, “We’ve got to fight ‘em over there, so we don’t have ta fight ‘em over here”?
Totally wrong strategy. People are at their best, as warriors, when they are defending their own home ground. If we learned nothing else from Vietnam, we should have learned that. So the thing to do is leave Iraq, leave Afghanistan, abandon all of our numerous foreign bases–bring ‘em all home–and then…open the borders. You want to see Americans win a war? Let the tersts come to us!
American women will become the most ferocious of warriors, cuz the tersts want to veil them, take their shoes away and put them in the tent. No self-respecting Amurkin woman will put up with that (except for some stupid Bushite females, and even some of them…). Guys will get to use their many guns, real-time. As the robes of flying jihadists whip through our neighborhoods, Duck City, Guys! The Minutemen will finally have a purpose in life. The chickehawks will finally be exposed for what they are–the world’s biggest cowards, on fast jets outa here to safe havens in Colombia and Dubai. And we will be rid of them. Hoorah! And the real Murkins can be proud of their Republic once again, having sent the Infidel packing, along with the Bushite slime.
It’s easy to make fun of my fellow and sister Murkins, but I am at least half-serious. Let us pull back within our borders and defend our own land, at one tenth the cost. Let us be clever. Let us be frugal. Let us be real citizens again, in civil militias, as Thomas Jefferson and that poor maligned fellow, Nicolo Machiavelli, advocated. Let us not be serfs and cannon fodder for prancing princelings. Let us not be pawns in corporate resource wars. Let us mind our own business, and if any barbarians be at the gate, smite them. Let us throw this “military-industrial” monster off our backs and be free again and love the land, and defend it, if it comes to that, but, you know, it probably won’t. Islamic peoples just want to be left alone, to live their lives peacefully, like we do. Eliminate 90% of our military budget, trade fairly, deal honestly with other peoples, stop bullying the world and ripping it off, and I think we would find we have no enemies.
how is it that it’s losing two wars to a bunch of rabble?
One thing I would note is that the US officer corps is almost exclusively Republican, with the deformed habits of mind that entails.
cinnamonape @ 144
Remember how openly disrespectful the military was of Clinton? There’s a cost to cutting the military and many have decided that it’s not worth the heartburn. It’s not just the multinationals, the rich, etc… it’s all the people associated with the military (including tons who aren’t officially on the payroll). Cutting the military is dangerous politically. Remember in 2000 how openly the military helped Bush? Until the Iraq war messup I was quite convinced that if Bush had declared martial law and cancelled elections “temporarily” odds were high the military would have gone along.
TarheelDem @ 150
The military is a form of socialism. Yes.
I don’t agree that we are losing the war in Afghanistan, though there is a long term problem with the Taleban hiding in the mountains it seems from what I’ve read that the public there is happy that they are gone.
Of course I do agree that we are losing in Iraq – to a centuries long battle between the Sunni and Shia, the local countries are the only ones who can prevent this.
@ 77
Eisenhower wasn’t an anomaly when he had 5 stars, only once he got into politics.
You may not know he covered up a training accident for the Normandy invasion and had ~600 soldier corpses bulldozed into a mass grave — and letters went to their families saying they died in battle.
But I have to give him credit for not starting World War 3 on a mistake. When they finished the DEW line, with everything online, suddenly they had radar indications of an over-the-pole attack. The military commander got on the horn to Eisenhower, asking, “What should we do?!”
The reply was, “Wait, it might be a mistake.” And it was. And that’s how they discovered ‘moonbounce’!
The military has traditionally been very good at fighting the last war. After World War 1, Billy Mitchell declared air power was the answer for the future and claimed an airplane could sink a battleship. Granted, he fudged the arbitrary test but he proved the point. So the Navy came to believe the aircraft carrier was the final answer.
Unfortunately, technology and missile development by the Germans, working off American Robert Goddard’s early experiments in rocketry, proved this wrong. But we still have aircraft carriers, just as the ones off Iran.
Don’t ask about the Russian SS-N22 Sunburn cruise missiles they have, and hopefully won’t have to use. I wouldn’t want to be assigned to one of those floating dinosaurs.
You will pardon my commie pinko attitude, but the problem is capitalism. The prosperity of the last forty years has been driven by the military industrial complex, something China and Japan realize as they fund our deficit, knowing US bonds are not that great an investment.
Capitalistic waste extends to our other wars, on poverty, for example, which enlisted battalions of social workers when contributions to the poor would work better. Then there’s the war on drugs withs its armies of police and prison builders to keep people from ruining their lives. We prefer to put them in the slam on the theory that’s better then their getting high on the outside.
The same is true for conservation. Who needs it? Everyone makes more building power plants and strip mining.
Some people mentioned Abu Ghraib which illustrates our tendency to follow orders. Stanley Milgram, a Yale psychology professor, gained some notoriety in the 60’s or 70’s with a variety of imaginative experiments. One, a supposed visual accuity test had four lines on a page, one shorter than the others. Participants were supposed to pick the longest line. Four people took the test together. Three were in on it and picked the shortest line. About fifty percent of the time the fourth person followed the others rather than trust his perception. It brings to mind the joke about the cheating husband caught in the act who asks his wife “who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”
Every now and then someone suggests not paying taxes (it wasn’t only me)to be reminded that’s a felony. Whoever withheld taxes might be prosecuted by someone who is equally against the war but prosecuting people is his job. He does his job. I’m sure many riot police sympathize with protestors, but they break their skulls anyhow. And so it goes.
I’m not sure anything can be done about madness of this magnitude. But if we want to start we must get personal. I understand Jane is off to Washington for a meeting of the movers and shakers of the liberal blogging world. How much better it would be if the meeting were online, open to anyone interested. I don’t know how that can be done-I’m computer illiterate-but I’m sure someone can do it. We have to get into the habit of eschewing hierarchy in favor of anarchy.